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swood1000
12-19-2010, 02:49 PM
Interested in what the current opinions might be on filling in the following blanks:

a. Roy Williams is a good coach. The problems this year and last are due to _____.
b. Roy Williams has been exposed as a mediocre coach. This is demonstrated by _____. His successes of the past can be explained by _____.
c. A number of the current North Carolina players have performed well below expectation. Quite likely this is because _____.

PADukeMom
12-19-2010, 03:08 PM
interested in what the current opinions might be on filling in the following blanks:

A. Roy williams is a good coach. The problems this year and last are due to _____.
The lack of a true leader.
B. Roy williams has been exposed as a mediocre coach. This is demonstrated by _____.
Nit loss
his successes of the past can be explained by _____.
Pure luck
c. A number of the current north carolina players have performed well below expectation. Quite likely this is because _____.
the players aren't playing in durham ;), really again it is lack of leadership.

OZZIE4DUKE
12-19-2010, 03:11 PM
Interested in what the current opinions might be on filling in the following blanks:

a. Roy Williams is a good coach. The problems this year and last are due to _____.
b. Roy Williams has been exposed as a mediocre coach. This is demonstrated by _____. His successes of the past can be explained by _____.
c. A number of the current North Carolina players have performed well below expectation. Quite likely this is because _____.
C. Roy Williams has lost interest in coaching and is just putting in his time, waiting for retirement. He's tired of putting up with all the prima dona's coming out of high school who think the world revolves around them, when he knows the world revolves around Roy Williams.

roywhite
12-19-2010, 03:16 PM
The "bottom line" for UNC hasn't yet been written, esp. for this year.

I'm leaning toward choice (B), Roy is a mediocre coach, but we'll see how things play out this year and beyond.

weezie
12-19-2010, 03:21 PM
He's tired of putting up with all the prima dona's coming out of high school who think the world revolves around them, when he knows the world revolves around Roy Williams.

Oz, you forgot the "dadgummit".
Sheesh.

CameronCrazy'11
12-19-2010, 04:29 PM
B. He's a very good coach when he has great players who fit into his system like Lawson, Felton, Hansbrough, etc... However, his stubborn refusal to adapt the way his teams play to the players he actuallly has demonstrates why he is not a great coach. This year's and last year's teams have plenty of talented players, but their talent is not served by Roy trying to force them into the roles that Lawson and Hansbrough played. You won't convince me that a better in-game coach like K or even Gary Willaims couldn't have squeezed a tournament appearance out of last year's UNC team.

ncexnyc
12-19-2010, 04:40 PM
B. He's a very good coach when he has great players who fit into his system like Lawson, Felton, Hansbrough, etc... However, his stubborn refusal to adapt the way his teams play to the players he actuallly has demonstrates why he is not a great coach. This year's and last year's teams have plenty of talented players, but their talent is not served by Roy trying to force them into the roles that Lawson and Hansbrough played. You won't convince me that a better in-game coach like K or even Gary Willaims couldn't have squeezed a tournament appearance out of last year's UNC team.
Try taking the time to figure out how many games UNC players lost to injuries last year and get back to me.
It's easy and fun to throw stones at Ol' Roy, but truth is had we lost as many games to injuries Coach K wouldn't have done that much better.

1999ballboy
12-19-2010, 04:44 PM
c. A number of the current North Carolina players have performed well below expectation. Quite likely this is because Larry Drew is just a horrible point guard. He has no leadership abilities and has not improved his game enough to play on this level. Marshall isn't great yet, but he already distributes the ball and avoids turnovers better than Drew, and if Roy were a better coach he'd do what K did with Paulus in '09 and recognize this.

Really the bottom line, though, is that this is a team without any superstars, which is something that successful UNC teams have always had. Henson and Barnes were supposed to have been those superstars by now, and they're just good players.

Gthoma2a
12-19-2010, 04:44 PM
Try taking the time to figure out how many games UNC players lost to injuries last year and get back to me.
It's easy and fun to throw stones at Ol' Roy, but truth is had we lost as many games to injuries Coach K wouldn't have done that much better.

Right, because we never win games when a key/best player is out. We didn't do it with Boozer, Kyrie, Duhon, or any of the other guys over the years. No offense, but injuries are only part of any story. A system can allow the entire team to still be effective with a player or two out.

hurley1
12-19-2010, 07:03 PM
Roy is a great coach.......i think he has a bunch of prep stars that have not been able to adjust to the college game.....it is one thing when the opposing 5 guys are nowhere as good as you are, which is what many prep stars experience.......it's entirely something else when the other 5 guys are quick, smart, and effective.......which is what they are experiencing now.....

ArkieDukie
12-19-2010, 07:26 PM
C. Roy Williams has lost interest in coaching and is just putting in his time, waiting for retirement. He's tired of putting up with all the prima dona's coming out of high school who think the world revolves around them, when he knows the world revolves around Roy Williams.

Another Ozzie Classic! :cool:

ArkieDukie
12-19-2010, 07:33 PM
Roy is a great coach.......i think he has a bunch of prep stars that have not been able to adjust to the college game.....it is one thing when the opposing 5 guys are nowhere as good as you are, which is what many prep stars experience.......it's entirely something else when the other 5 guys are quick, smart, and effective.......which is what they are experiencing now.....

hurley1, I think this is a thoughtful assessment, but I respectfully disagree with your first statement. In my opinion, if Roy IS a great coach, he should be able to help his players adjust to the college game. If your assessment of their situation is correct, and I think it could very well be, then I seriously question his coaching skills.

sagegrouse
12-19-2010, 07:56 PM
hurley1, I think this is a thoughtful assessment, but I respectfully disagree with your first statement. In my opinion, if Roy IS a great coach, he should be able to help his players adjust to the college game. If your assessment of their situation is correct, and I think it could very well be, then I seriously question his coaching skills.

I'm gonna straddle the fence on Roy's coaching abilities, although HOF entry should put the burden on those who dispute them. Roy had done a great job with Carolina until last year (yeah, I know, that 20-0 run, or whatever, by Kansas in the FF wasn't too cool). Last year, an inexperienced team rated far too highly played well early but then did a nosedive; the pilot couldn't bring the team out of the dive, and it crashed to a third-place landing in the NIT.

In his last three recruiting classes, Roy has had some players turn out to be less than advertised (and I am not talking about freshman HB). That has happened at times to Duke as well. And the loss of Davis hurts, but was totally predictable. The issue with the Wares is why were they recruited? The talent level has now improved IMHO. I expect the freshmen class will provide three of Carolina's best five players by the end of the year.

Anyway, with all these pluses and minuses, this is an important year for Roy. Early indications aren't great for UNC. The backcourt continues to be erratic; the front line is thin; and HB hasn't shown what people expect. But we'll see once the ACC starts. There, focus and intensity mean everything. But if Roy has a middle-of-the-pack team in a weaker ACC, people will start to reassess his place in the basketball pantheon.

Summary: Ol' Roy has gotta win this year.

sagegrouse

dukeimac
12-19-2010, 08:01 PM
It starts with recruiting. A great coach, or even a good coach, knows to recruit players who fit his system. If he is a great coach he can adopt his style to their style, as we saw Coach K do last year. This year might even be a better example, they were an upbeat team for 9 games and now they will revert to that slower game and will win. That is a sign of a great coach.

Roy's issue is he knows only how to coach one way and that is simply to get the players to run up and down the court. They will make mistakes but he doesn't have to coach because everyone knows a fast paced game always has mistakes. Thus this covers up his inability to actually teach his players something.

Roy has missed in his recruiting, no PG he has now can run a fast passed game without making a lot of mistakes. Those mistakes would be hidden if he had someone who could score lights out. He missed this by letting all the hype go concerning HB and is putting a lot of pressure on HB because of himself. He over hyped the kid about being the best he has ever coached before he even had a real chance to coach the kid. Roy over hyped McDonald by staging a grand dinner at center court of the Dean Dome. That is fit for someone like MJ or even Hans but McDonald hasn't lived up to the supreme meal. Again, too much hype by Roy.

UNC makes too many mistakes in the up tempo game and they don't have that scorer to help them over come it. This team would be much better suited in a slow down pass but he won't simply because he doesn't know how to coach that.

At best, he is just over an average coach. When he coaches a team no one thinks they would win a title or come close then I will think he is a good coach. But the team he had last year was better than an NIT team and this team should be an elite eight team. If they don't make it, it will prove my point, Roy is just over an average coach.

OldPhiKap
12-19-2010, 08:38 PM
"He's a one trick pony
One trick is all that horse can do
He does one trick only
It's the principal source of his revenue
And when he steps into the spotlight
You can feel the heat of his heart
Come rising through . . . .

"He's a one trick pony
He either fails or he succeeds
He gives his testimony
Then he relaxes in the weeds
He's got one trick to last a lifetime
But that's all a pony needs
(that's all he needs)."

(Paul Simon, as applicable to RW)

hurley1
12-19-2010, 08:44 PM
hurley1, I think this is a thoughtful assessment, but I respectfully disagree with your first statement. In my opinion, if Roy IS a great coach, he should be able to help his players adjust to the college game. If your assessment of their situation is correct, and I think it could very well be, then I seriously question his coaching skills.

He ain't Coach K, that's for sure...and i am pretty defenseless here aginst your reasoning....he should be able to convert these kids from preps to college..........maybe i am defending him because i want UNC to kep him for a very long time........:D

Devilsfan
12-19-2010, 09:13 PM
What gets me is he tries hard to talk like a rural NC native, and never takes the blame for his lack of coaching abilities but calls out his players and feels sorry for himself for his recent failures.

Duvall
12-19-2010, 09:20 PM
Try taking the time to figure out how many games UNC players lost to injuries last year and get back to me.
It's easy and fun to throw stones at Ol' Roy, but truth is had we lost as many games to injuries Coach K wouldn't have done that much better.

Well, it's also easy and fun to throw stones because Roy didn't do a very good job last year.

It's not just about what they lost, it's about what they had. UNC got 24 games out of the #13 pick in the following draft. They got another 63 games out of two players projected to be first round draft picks by the end of their careers. Despite this, Williams was only able to parlay that talent into a lower-division finish and an NIT bid.

By contrast, Duke's 1996 squad had exactly no players that would ever appear in an NBA game, not even for a minute. And Krzyzewski was able to get that team to a .500 ACC record (back when that meant something) and a trip to the NCAA Tournament.

So yeah. I do think Krzyzewski would have done better against similar obstacles.

-jk
12-19-2010, 09:25 PM
What gets me is he tries hard to talk like a rural NC native, and never takes the blame for his lack of coaching abilities but calls out his players and feels sorry for himself for his recent failures.

Um... He is from rural NC.

(Can't believe I'm defending him.)

-jk

CameronCrazy'11
12-19-2010, 09:54 PM
Try taking the time to figure out how many games UNC players lost to injuries last year and get back to me.
It's easy and fun to throw stones at Ol' Roy, but truth is had we lost as many games to injuries Coach K wouldn't have done that much better.

I don't really buy that explanation since UNC actually did better after Henson went out.

tux
12-19-2010, 09:57 PM
My take is that Roy is still adjusting to winning his 2nd NC. Just like K climbed the mountain again after those lean years from 95 to 97, Roy will get hungry again. And I also think it's too early to call HB a bust; he's only a bust in the sense that he's not going to be 1st team AA, and making the pre-season team was a joke, IMO. But the kid has a lot going for him; I watched the TX game and he did a lot of good things, but he does at times look stiff/uncomfortable out there...

ncexnyc
12-19-2010, 10:16 PM
Right, because we never win games when a key/best player is out. We didn't do it with Boozer, Kyrie, Duhon, or any of the other guys over the years. No offense, but injuries are only part of any story. A system can allow the entire team to still be effective with a player or two out.

A truly absurb post. It's one thing to overcome one injury to a key player and keep winning, but when you've got several go down and you've got a young team to begin with it's hard to develop any chemisty or consistency.

I love you're attempt to say we've overcome Kyrie injury. We haven't exactly played a Murders Row of opponents since he went out and those two senior All Americans sure do pick up a lot of the slack. Try a dose of reality and do some math on the Heel injuries from last year and then get back to me and tell me you believe we could have handled a loss of say Jon and Thomas last year. Heck this board was freaking out big time when Lance went down with what appeared to be a serious knee injury and he wasn't even one of the big three.

OldPhiKap
12-19-2010, 10:44 PM
A truly absurb post. It's one thing to overcome one injury to a key player and keep winning, but when you've got several go down and you've got a young team to begin with it's hard to develop any chemisty or consistency.

I love you're attempt to say we've overcome Kyrie injury. We haven't exactly played a Murders Row of opponents since he went out and those two senior All Americans sure do pick up a lot of the slack. Try a dose of reality and do some math on the Heel injuries from last year and then get back to me and tell me you believe we could have handled a loss of say Jon and Thomas last year. Heck this board was freaking out big time when Lance went down with what appeared to be a serious knee injury and he wasn't even one of the big three.

No doubt, the injuries played a factor. BUT you also have the Wear's transferring, Graves getting kicked off the team, etc. -- so there's more to it than the fact that they had injuries.

Let me approach it from another way -- how many times have you seen a Coach K team just tank it? Carolina did that repeatedly last year. Heck, the beat-down we gave them in Cameron last year was almost too much, really -- they gave up after 15 minutes into the game, if that. We have suffered through injuries in the past -- every team does -- but when has Duke ever just packed it in?

I'll give the folks over at IC credit -- as much as they hate Duke and K, they recognize that they come to play EVERY game, EVERY day, EVERY play. That's called coaching, and pride in the institution. Does anyone really think Roy has that going on the last two years?

At our worst over the last 20 years, our teams have represented Duke proudly. That's not a coincidence with the fact that K will be the winningest coach before this time next year.

bluepenguin
12-19-2010, 10:58 PM
If ol' roy has another season this year like he did last year, do the natives get restless and start talking about a replacement?

Kfanarmy
12-19-2010, 11:03 PM
Try taking the time to figure out how many games UNC players lost to injuries last year and get back to me.
It's easy and fun to throw stones at Ol' Roy, but truth is had we lost as many games to injuries Coach K wouldn't have done that much better.
I disagree completely with this. I don't recall UNC having to forfeit a single game to injuries. They had quite a few injuries for sure, but they never had an offensive game plan designed for the players they had on the floor either. If Coach K had tried to make last year's team execute an uptempo game I don't think they win the national championship...at the same time, I think UNC makes the tourney trying to execute set plays in a more moderately paced O.

OZZIE4DUKE
12-19-2010, 11:05 PM
C. Roy Williams has lost interest in coaching and is just putting in his time, waiting for retirement. He's tired of putting up with all the prima dona's coming out of high school who think the world revolves around them, when he knows the world revolves around Roy Williams.


If ol' roy has another season this year like he did last year, do the natives get restless and start talking about a replacement?
For those who think I was just trying to be funny or facetious, I wasn't. I really think he is burned out and about done with coaching.

sagegrouse
12-19-2010, 11:13 PM
If ol' roy has another season this year like he did last year, do the natives get restless and start talking about a replacement?

Absolutely, if by "natives" you mean the inhabitants of Inside Carolina. Of course, it won't have any effect on the powers-that-be, Baddour or his replacement.

As to your premise, I seriously doubt that UNC repeats a 5-11 W-L record in the ACC. Of course, if it were even worse, I would be jubilant.

sagegrouse

Kedsy
12-19-2010, 11:31 PM
B. He's a very good coach when he has great players who fit into his system like Lawson, Felton, Hansbrough, etc... However, his stubborn refusal to adapt the way his teams play to the players he actuallly has demonstrates why he is not a great coach. This year's and last year's teams have plenty of talented players, but their talent is not served by Roy trying to force them into the roles that Lawson and Hansbrough played.

Roy's first year at Kansas, he took a team that lost its seniors and coach from a national championship season, that also happened to be on probation, and went 19-12. Here are his win/loss records in the 14 seasons after that, all at Kansas:

30-5; 27-8; 27-5; 29-6; 26-8; 25-6; 29-5; 34-2; 35-4; 23-10; 24-10; 26-7; 33-8; 30-8.

Even putting aside the four 30 win seasons at UNC, including two national champions, in his first six years in Chapel Hill, do you think all those great seasons at Kansas included "great players who fit into his system"? Because I'm not going to go through 14 different rosters, but I'm sure many of them didn't feature players who could easily fit into the "roles that Lawson and Hansbrough played," and yet his team still did exceptionally well.

I don't particularly like Roy, but why should the last season and a third count more than the 20 seasons before that?


I don't really buy that explanation since UNC actually did better after Henson went out.

When did Henson go out?

mkirsh
12-20-2010, 12:29 AM
My guess from afar would be a combination of 2 things:

1) a few misses on recruiting, where players have not turned out to be as good as expected (Wears, Drew, Henson in particular). This happens to every program, and it takes time to recruit your way out of it. A lot of Duke's FF "drought" earlier this decade had to do with the Paulus/McRoberts class not being the second coming of Hurley/Laettner (no disrespect to them, they were very good Duke players, but the expectations placed on them in high school were very lofty, and it's tough for a lot of kids to live up to those kinds of recruiting expectations). That said, this is not reason for an NIT season (maybe 2?) by itself, I think there is something else going on, leading me to think it is...

2) bad chemistry. I think that Coach Williams lost last year's team, and he may not be getting through to this year's. It seems that the effort is not the same as his Kansas teams or earlier UNC teams, and my guess is that he has a divided locker room with a few guys not buying in. Combine that with good but not elite talent and you have an NIT team.

Now, Coach Williams is responsible for recruiting this team and getting the most out of them, so he has to be accountable for the bottom line results. But before I write him off as a one trick coach or say he has checked out, I would give him a few more seasons to see if he can return to what he has done for the previous 20 seasons once he gets some new faces. As much as we all want it to be over for UNC (Jason Evans excepted as he wants them in the FF every year), unfortunately I think they will bounce back.

Neals384
12-20-2010, 12:35 AM
a third-place landing in the NIT.

sagegrouse

Now dadgummit, let's give them 'Heels credit for their achievements. They were runners up in the NIT!

-bdbd
12-20-2010, 01:28 AM
Absolutely, if by "natives" you mean the inhabitants of Inside Carolina. Of course, it won't have any effect on the powers-that-be, Baddour or his replacement.

As to your premise, I seriously doubt that UNC repeats a 5-11 W-L record in the ACC. Of course, if it were even worse, I would be jubilant.

sagegrouse

Agreed. Look, they aren't as bad as the current record or recent results would have you believe - no matter how much we WANT that to be so. They will bounce back somewhat, though I still don't see them as top-2 (or even top-3 possibly) in the ACC. There is sufficient talent there, and pride, and time to coalesce, that I'd still be surprised if they don't make the NCAAT. Remeber, the name "Kerlina" means they simply won't be left on the outside of any bouble (much to the agitation of the Hokie faithful, who have experienced just the opposite in recent years).

Sorry OZ. I do hafta disagree. While I'm not a huge fan of 'ole Huck, the management knows better over in CH. Their options are no better without him. Who would they turn to post-Williams -- back to D'oh? And while he's probably frustrated - who wouldn't be after many years of entitlement, er, "tradition of winning??" But I see too much pride and loyalty to the school and its heritage - such as Dean Smith - to simply walk away. He's here for a while, and more than likely gets it turned around in the next year (but hopefully not until 2011-'12.).

In the meantime, just enjoy the drama-explosion show...

:eek:

Duke: A Dynasty
12-20-2010, 05:40 AM
b. Roy Williams has been exposed as a mediocre coach. This is demonstrated by his lack of leadership. His successes of the past can be explained by (at UNC) his first ring was not his players and 2nd was because by some miracle his big 3 returned for another year.
c. A number of the current North Carolina players have performed well below expectation. Quite likely this is because the coach has them in a bad situation

dukeimac
12-20-2010, 06:58 AM
Now dadgummit, let's give them 'Heels credit for their achievements. They were runners up in the NIT!

Wouldn't that be runners up to the runners up?

sagegrouse
12-20-2010, 09:01 AM
Now dadgummit, let's give them 'Heels credit for their achievements. They were runners up in the NIT!

I gave the Heels too little credit. Here's what I should have written:


Last year, an inexperienced team rated far too highly played well early but then did a nosedive; the pilot couldn't bring the team out of the dive, and it fell out of the NCAAs and into a double-digit loss in the NIT finals.

sagegrouse
'The Grouse Nation regrets the error'

OldPhiKap
12-20-2010, 09:03 AM
b. His successes of the past can be explained by (at UNC) his first ring was not his players and 2nd was because by some miracle his big 3 returned for another year.

To give Huck some credit, many thought McCants was uncoachable. ("McCancer"). So he did get some buy-in from players who had clearly turned Doh! off.

In many ways, it kind of reminds me of what K went through in the mid-90's when (he admits) recruiting kind of went askew and he was a bit burned out. Roy seems to be going through something similar. The difference, as I noted before, is that even in the darkest days our players bought into Coach's system and belief. They played with passion for their team. That just seems to be wholly lacking down the road, probably due to a lack of upperclass leadership that can translate Roy's obvious passion to floor execution. (And no, that can't all come from the sideline -- a peer in the huddle needs to take ownership and leadership responsibility. Nolan is that guy for us this year, as was Jon last year. Kyle, of course, is a warrior in any weather and leads more by example than anything).

oldnavy
12-20-2010, 10:45 AM
For those who think I was just trying to be funny or facetious, I wasn't. I really think he is burned out and about done with coaching.

Ozzie, I hear you. I was saying something very similar back at the beginning of the year. My post is #354 on link, I have not figured out how to link properly yet!


http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?22996-UNC-early-season-form&p=449342#post449342

Acymetric
12-20-2010, 11:26 AM
To give Huck some credit, many thought McCants was uncoachable. ("McCancer"). So he did get some buy-in from players who had clearly turned Doh! off.

Wow, able to get more out of his players than Doherty? High praise indeed ;)

Kedsy
12-20-2010, 11:34 AM
b. Roy Williams has been exposed as a mediocre coach. This is demonstrated by his lack of leadership. His successes of the past can be explained by (at UNC) his first ring was not his players...

Are you demeaning his coaching or his recruiting? If you take someone else's players who went 6-10 in the ACC and with the same core win the national championship two years later, I would argue that is a more impressive coaching performance than winning with your own players.

(And I don't think you are, but if by your statement you are demeaning his recruiting rather than his coaching ability, I can't imagine too many people agree with you.)


...and 2nd was because by some miracle his big 3 returned for another year.

Well, in 2001-02, Duke had a "big three" return and had a really good year but lost in the Sweet 16. In 2005-06, our two All American players returned as seniors, and we had a great year but we lost in the Sweet 16 again. So having talent return doesn't guarantee anything. To discount Roy's accomplishment because three players who really weren't ready for the NBA yet anyway decided to return to school is not only silly, but more than a little bit petty.

And, beyond all that, there is his stellar record at Kansas (which I detailed in an earlier post) and in addition to his two championship seasons at UNC, he also won 31 games in 2006-07 and 36 games in 2007-08. And in 2005-06, he took a team with no real point guard and with a rotation consisting of four freshmen (only one top 10 recruit) and five guys who the year before had combined to average 8.9 points a game and went 23-8 (12-4 in the ACC), which was one of the best coaching performances by anyone that I can remember.

Look, it's making me a little sick to my stomach to be defending Roy this way, and obviously he's not connecting with his current core of players (this year and last), but to say that one down year followed by a so-so two months proves he "has been exposed as a mediocre coach" is on the far side of ridiculous.

roywhite
12-20-2010, 11:50 AM
Ozzie, I hear you. I was saying something very similar back at the beginning of the year. My post is #354 on link, I have not figured out how to link properly yet!


http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?22996-UNC-early-season-form&p=449342#post449342

Well, if Ol' Roy were going through burn-out and started checking the exits, what would it look like from the outside?

Under-performing national and local expectations?
Struggling against historically lesser opponents (Ex; College of Charleston)
Having a long period of time where losses were as numerous as wins (Ex; 2010 calendar year)
Blaming others
Bemoaning outside factors
Not connecting well with the players
Making puzzling tactical decisions (mass substitutions, hoarding time outs)

Perhaps, as other posters point out, this is just a slump that Ol' Roy and UNC will work themselves out of, they're young and improving, etc.

But, as Ozzie, oldnavy, and others suggest, seems to me like it could also be a more serious burn-out that could lead to further problems and a short remaining tenure for Ol' Roy. Interesting, for sure.

jimsumner
12-20-2010, 12:01 PM
Are you demeaning his coaching or his recruiting? If you take someone else's players who went 6-10 in the ACC and with the same core win the national championship two years later, I would argue that is a more impressive coaching performance than winning with your own players.

(And I don't think you are, but if by your statement you are demeaning his recruiting rather than his coaching ability, I can't imagine too many people agree with you.)



Well, in 2001-02, Duke had a "big three" return and had a really good year but lost in the Sweet 16. In 2005-06, our two All American players returned as seniors, and we had a great year but we lost in the Sweet 16 again. So having talent return doesn't guarantee anything. To discount Roy's accomplishment because three players who really weren't ready for the NBA yet anyway decided to return to school is not only silly, but more than a little bit petty.

And, beyond all that, there is his stellar record at Kansas (which I detailed in an earlier post) and in addition to his two championship seasons at UNC, he also won 31 games in 2006-07 and 36 games in 2007-08. And in 2005-06, he took a team with no real point guard and with a rotation consisting of four freshmen (only one top 10 recruit) and five guys who the year before had combined to average 8.9 points a game and went 23-8 (12-4 in the ACC), which was one of the best coaching performances by anyone that I can remember.

Look, it's making me a little sick to my stomach to be defending Roy this way, and obviously he's not connecting with his current core of players (this year and last), but to say that one down year followed by a so-so two months proves he "has been exposed as a mediocre coach" is on the far side of ridiculous.


I do not believe Roy Williams did a very good job last season. But that was after a career ranging from pretty good to excellent. He's in the Hall of Fame on merit.

So, I'm inclined to view last season as an abberation. If this continues, then we've got a trend.

There's a lot of overlap between this thread and the Texas-UNC thread. Someone asked about burnout on one of these. It's certainly possible. Vic Bubas got sick of the business when he was barely in his 40s and he's not the only one. But my UNC sources don't think that's the case and I haven't seen any signs of that when I've talked to RW.

This UNC team has some clear flaws, but also has considerable strengths. I freely confess that I spent much of last season waiting for a UNC 180 that never came. So, I could be wrong again.

But somebody is going to have to finish second in the ACC. Right now, I'd put my money on UNC, not so much because of their impressive resume but more because no one other than Duke is making much of a case for being more than a good NIT team.

Duvall
12-20-2010, 12:17 PM
I do not believe Roy Williams did a very good job last season. But that was after a career ranging from pretty good to excellent. He's in the Hall of Fame on merit.

So, I'm inclined to view last season as an abberation. If this continues, then we've got a trend.

There's a lot of overlap between this thread and the Texas-UNC thread. Someone asked about burnout on one of these. It's certainly possible. Vic Bubas got sick of the business when he was barely in his 40s and he's not the only one. But my UNC sources don't think that's the case and I haven't seen any signs of that when I've talked to RW.

This UNC team has some clear flaws, but also has considerable strengths. I freely confess that I spent much of last season waiting for a UNC 180 that never came. So, I could be wrong again.

But somebody is going to have to finish second in the ACC. Right now, I'd put my money on UNC, not so much because of their impressive resume but more because no one other than Duke is making much of a case for being more than a good NIT team.

Boston College? They have more quality wins, and a quality road win.

johnb
12-20-2010, 12:44 PM
He has 7 McDonald's A-A's, so he's a great recruiter. For the past 14 months, his team has been mediocre. He's the coach. He's a mediocre coach.

But using that rationale, he's generally been a great coach.

I also think he has such strong narcissistic qualities that he does not respond well to adversity, which worsens the nosedive that his teams have been in.

Having said that, they've looked pretty good against Kentucky and Texas, and I have no doubt they'll come ready to play against us.

jimsumner
12-20-2010, 01:05 PM
Boston College? They have more quality wins, and a quality road win.

BC? I really like Donahue. I think he's a keeper. But I'm not sure he has the talent and depth this year to do much better than 7-9 in the ACC.

I picked VT to finish second in the ACC in the preseason and for much of the season so far that looked a little like picking Alf Landon in 1936. But their win over Mississippi State over the weekend was pretty impressive. Can they build on that? Can Hudson and Allen consistently give Delaney the help he needs? I don't know.

FSU is painful to watch but they're equally painful to play against. A 50-45 win may be ugly but it's still a win. Tony Bennett is doing wonderful things in Charlottesville but the 'Hoos got off to a great start last season and imploded down the stretch. As with BC, I'm not sure they have the horses. State, Miami, Clemson all seem to define mediocre. GT had a nice win over the weekend but they have a lot more not-so-nice-losses. And Wake Forest is woeful. They fired Gaudio for this?

Maryland is a wild card. GW's teams overachive on a regular basis and Jordan Williams gives them someone to build around.

But right now, I don't see more than four NCAA teams from the ACC and other than Duke, I don't know who the other three are.

So, once the infighting starts for good in a couple of weeks, things will get real interesting.

smcook313
12-20-2010, 01:22 PM
Try taking the time to figure out how many games UNC players lost to injuries last year and get back to me.
It's easy and fun to throw stones at Ol' Roy, but truth is had we lost as many games to injuries Coach K wouldn't have done that much better.

You cant really mean this can you??? Zeller was the ONLY player on your team that worth anything and that didnt have a 3 5star recruits backing him up!! You had Henson, Ed Davis, AND Deon Thompson!! Oh, not to mention Travis and David Wear!! So Graves was hurt, Ginyard...come on... You have plenty of talent on that team to not be a .500 team!! I will GUARANTEE Coach K wins with squad. We had 2 guards PERIOD last year!! Our starters consisted of 2 guys who averaged less than 5 points a game for their entire career!!! 3 guys scored our points and it wasnt alot of them...We held teams to 60 points a game!! Its about getting your guys to believe in what youre doing!!! And Roy cant do that. He was getting mad and frustrated with them...Not backing them up when they needed him to. He is a recruiter, just like Calapari. That first NC team wasnt his..and the second one was just REALLY good...all pro's. They played fast and had some really smart kids on the team. If Williams doesnt turn this around, he will be fired. You will see a guy who can really use the X's and O's because no matter the talent, they are kids...Most of the time they can play on their own. Its when adversity kicks in, when you are at Maryland and down by 5 with a minute left. You need points and fast..You cant just drive and hope..You have to have a guy who can run the inbound play for open 3...Roy hasnt ever been that guy. You cant even BEGIN to say the he and Coach K are on the same level!! Coach K is the best coach today and 2nd best EVER!! Nobody can compare to the person Wooden was..even K would tell you that. To me, I think he is just as good but different. Anywho, gimme a break with your BS comment!!! Thats a very angry comment, not an intelligent one.

oldnavy
12-20-2010, 01:34 PM
BC? I really like Donahue. I think he's a keeper. But I'm not sure he has the talent and depth this year to do much better than 7-9 in the ACC.

I picked VT to finish second in the ACC in the preseason and for much of the season so far that looked a little like picking Alf Landon in 1936. But their win over Mississippi State over the weekend was pretty impressive. Can they build on that? Can Hudson and Allen consistently give Delaney the help he needs? I don't know.

FSU is painful to watch but they're equally painful to play against. A 50-45 win may be ugly but it's still a win. Tony Bennett is doing wonderful things in Charlottesville but the 'Hoos got off to a great start last season and imploded down the stretch. As with BC, I'm not sure they have the horses. State, Miami, Clemson all seem to define mediocre. GT had a nice win over the weekend but they have a lot more not-so-nice-losses. And Wake Forest is woeful. They fired Gaudio for this?

Maryland is a wild card. GW's teams overachive on a regular basis and Jordan Williams gives them someone to build around.

But right now, I don't see more than four NCAA teams from the ACC and other than Duke, I don't know who the other three are.

So, once the infighting starts for good in a couple of weeks, things will get real interesting.

I totally agree, the conference battles are going to be very interesting... how the rest of the league plays and who IF anyone rises above the pack is anybody's guess.

I haven't done the numbers, but could we end up in a situation where everyone besides the top team (Duke) have a .500 or below record...it is mathmatically possible isn't it?

Not saying that this will happen, but it would be interesting would it not?

camion
12-20-2010, 01:41 PM
It looks now as though Wake is as much of a sure win as Duke is a sure loss so I think they offset. Throwing those two out, we have a situation where, even though the league is very blah this year, someone must win each game. The cream may not rise to the top, but I bet the sludge sinks to the bottom raising the less worse teams above the .500 line.

Who will the non-losers be? I'm sure that I'm not sure.

ncexnyc
12-20-2010, 01:51 PM
You cant really mean this can you??? Zeller was the ONLY player on your team that worth anything and that didnt have a 3 5star recruits backing him up!! You had Henson, Ed Davis, AND Deon Thompson!! Oh, not to mention Travis and David Wear!! So Graves was hurt, Ginyard...come on... You have plenty of talent on that team to not be a .500 team!! I will GUARANTEE Coach K wins with squad. We had 2 guards PERIOD last year!! Our starters consisted of 2 guys who averaged less than 5 points a game for their entire career!!! 3 guys scored our points and it wasnt alot of them...We held teams to 60 points a game!! Its about getting your guys to believe in what youre doing!!! And Roy cant do that. He was getting mad and frustrated with them...Not backing them up when they needed him to. He is a recruiter, just like Calapari. That first NC team wasnt his..and the second one was just REALLY good...all pro's. They played fast and had some really smart kids on the team. If Williams doesnt turn this around, he will be fired. You will see a guy who can really use the X's and O's because no matter the talent, they are kids...Most of the time they can play on their own. Its when adversity kicks in, when you are at Maryland and down by 5 with a minute left. You need points and fast..You cant just drive and hope..You have to have a guy who can run the inbound play for open 3...Roy hasnt ever been that guy. You cant even BEGIN to say the he and Coach K are on the same level!! Coach K is the best coach today and 2nd best EVER!! Nobody can compare to the person Wooden was..even K would tell you that. To me, I think he is just as good but different. Anywho, gimme a break with your BS comment!!! Thats a very angry comment, not an intelligent one.

Your team? Being objective doesn't make me a tar ho fan. Put down your mug of dark blue koolaid. You want to talk about our team last year and compare it to the heels then fine let's do just that.
At the end of the season we were starting 3 seniors and 2 juniors. Those five players not only had all of that experience, but they were also quite healthy. The preceived strength of the heels was supposed to be their frountcourt, but when players like Zeller and Davis miss as much time as they did that definitely hurt them. We had a very thin backcourt, no doubt about that, but again one was a senior and the other was a junior, both were exceptional players. The heels had Drew who barely sniffed the court as a freshman, Strickland and McDonald who were freshman and Ginyard who was never 100% healthy and more like a 6th man than a bonafide starter.

sagegrouse
12-20-2010, 02:01 PM
I haven't done the numbers, but could we end up in a situation where everyone besides the top team (Duke) have a .500 or below record...it is mathmatically possible isn't it?

Not saying that this will happen, but it would be interesting would it not?

It is indeed possible for one team to have a winning record and the other 11 to be at .500 or below. E.g., one team at 16-0, one team at 0-16, and the rest at 8-8.

It is not possible in a 12-team league for one team to have a winning record and the 11 others a losing record in a true double-round robin schedule. Now, if the ACC still had nine teams, it would be possible for one team to be 16-0 and other eight to be 7-9. This is just another problem with expanding from nine to 12 teams.:p

sagegrouse

yum dukie
12-20-2010, 02:25 PM
think about this....what comprises Roy's coaching tree? as in...who's in it? is Rex Walters the only branch? Does Steve Robinson get to count if it appears he's given up on head coaching?

I'm not saying the lack of a coaching tree is directly tied to last season and this season, but I wholeheartedly believe it's one piece of evidence that Roy falls way short of Coach K and others (Izzo, Pitino) when it comes to leadership development. And i think we can all agree developing leaders is an integral part of building a winning team.

other random thoughts about this....
who was Roy's leader in 05? Noel? it sure didn't look like May/Felton/McCants.
How about 09? Was it really Tyler? Was it Lawson? Can we say who it was definitively?

Going back to his Kansas days, who can we point to and say 'yep, that guy is a total leader.'? Jacque Vaughn? Pierce? Hinrich? It is certainly debatable, but do they stand out like Battier, Paulus, Melchionni, and Nelson or going back further Wojo/Amaker/Dawkins? It's like with Duke, I can seemingly pick from a whole slew of guys that became solid leaders whereas with Kansas/UNC under Roy, I feel like I'm reaching and just picking his best players.

Are there non-basketball success stories for Roy's players like with Reggie Love/Melchionni/Brian Davis? If so, we never hear about them, but I feel comfortable in questioning whether they actually exist.

Roy has 2 championships and several final fours to his credit, he's a great recruiter, but last season and this current season are bringing to the forefront the fact that he doesn't know how to bring leadership out of his players so that they can better work through tough times.

-bdbd
12-20-2010, 02:37 PM
It looks now as though Wake is as much of a sure win as Duke is a sure loss so I think they offset. Throwing those two out, we have a situation where, even though the league is very blah this year, someone must win each game. The cream may not rise to the top, but I bet the sludge sinks to the bottom raising the less worse teams above the .500 line.

Who will the non-losers be? I'm sure that I'm not sure.

LOL!!! It is also very descriptive of the ACC this year. The law of averages would say that someone will rise up some and 1-2 (or 3 or 4) will ultimately sink. But I could envision a scenario where, entering March, there's still 10 ACC teams thinking they still "have a chance" at the dance, but with only one for-sure being in at that point. I can also foresee a year where the top team has the reg season clinched relatively early, and spots 2 - 9 are still in flux until the final weekend. (Think in terms of a top team at about 12-2 entering the last week (i.e. last 2 games) and then a bunch in the 9-5 to 6-8 range.) It makes for a competitive finish most likely where, other than Duke, anybody can beat anybody on a given night. I actually think it'll be fun to see play out.

Regards,

:cool:

jimsumner
12-20-2010, 02:42 PM
It is indeed possible for one team to have a winning record and the other 11 to be at .500 or below. E.g., one team at 16-0, one team at 0-16, and the rest at 8-8.

It is not possible in a 12-team league for one team to have a winning record and the 11 others a losing record in a true double-round robin schedule. Now, if the ACC still had nine teams, it would be possible for one team to be 16-0 and other eight to be 7-9. This is just another problem with expanding from nine to 12 teams.:p

sagegrouse

The best thing that could happen for the ACC is for the worst teams to continue to be really, really bad. If Wake goes 0-16 and Georgia Tech only beats Wake (just an example) then that makes it more likely that a team or two will separate themselves from the pack with a 10-6, maybe an 11-5. But if Wake and GT find themselves and pull off some wins against VT, Maryland or FSU, then it makes it more likely that a bunch of teams are going to cluster in the 9-7, 8-8, 7-9 wrong-side-of-the bubble neighborhood.

sagegrouse
12-20-2010, 03:06 PM
Are there non-basketball success stories for Roy's players like with Reggie Love/Melchionni/Brian Davis? If so, we never hear about them, but I feel comfortable in questioning whether they actually exist.



Plus, JWill, JD, Amaker, Billy King, Bilas, and Danny Ferry among K disciples. Yeah, many of these are basketball, but their success is one in one hundred or more compared to the number of D-I players that would love to be an NBA GM, for example. And we haven't heard the last of Quin.

Prior to the K era, we have Gminski, Spanarkel, and Dennard. And in earlier eras, Dr. Fleischer, Dr. Buckley (a physicker), and Dr. Marin (JD variety).

sagegrouse

roywhite
12-20-2010, 06:36 PM
Your team? Being objective doesn't make me a tar ho fan. Put down your mug of dark blue koolaid. You want to talk about our team last year and compare it to the heels then fine let's do just that.
At the end of the season we were starting 3 seniors and 2 juniors. Those five players not only had all of that experience, but they were also quite healthy. The preceived strength of the heels was supposed to be their frountcourt, but when players like Zeller and Davis miss as much time as they did that definitely hurt them. We had a very thin backcourt, no doubt about that, but again one was a senior and the other was a junior, both were exceptional players. The heels had Drew who barely sniffed the court as a freshman, Strickland and McDonald who were freshman and Ginyard who was never 100% healthy and more like a 6th man than a bonafide starter.

I don't want to alarm you, ncexnyc, but there is somebody posting on insidecarolina.com with your exact poster name and he appears to be a UNC fan.

How can that be?

From IC:


* ncexnyc
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* 113 posts this site
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Posted: 11/29/2010 9:48 PM
Re: Minn. & Vandy are 11-1
So is this what it's come too? Justifying our losses by talking about the record of the teams that beat us.

ncexnyc
12-20-2010, 07:41 PM
I don't want to alarm you, ncexnyc, but there is somebody posting on insidecarolina.com with your exact poster name and he appears to be a UNC fan.

How can that be?

From IC:


* ncexnyc
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Posted: 11/29/2010 9:48 PM
Re: Minn. & Vandy are 11-1
So is this what it's come too? Justifying our losses by talking about the record of the teams that beat us.
It must be my evil twin, or it could be I'm bi-polar.

pjhw2021
12-21-2010, 11:13 PM
I don't particularly like Roy, but why should the last season and a third count more than the 20 seasons before that?



I agree 100%. Some people seem to be a little to quick to jump on this "EXPOSED!" bandwagon when mathematically it makes NO SENSE.

ThePublisher
12-21-2010, 11:56 PM
Ol Roy is very good when he has players to fit the only system he will run. If he doesn't have a point like Felton or Lawson, it just doesn't work. Instead of changing the system to fit the players (a la Duke last year) he just runs the secondary break offense, whether it works or not. Drew II can't do it. If he had Kyrie, unc would be rolling over people.
To me, that means that Roy is overrated. He has a lot of wins and a few rings, but look at the talent that was there both times.
It makes me question his class when he constantly blames his players. That is something K would never do. Putting them down because his system isn't working.
If he doesn't get it together next year, which I'm thinking he wont since there still wont be a lightening fast pg there, watch some of the fan base start turning on him like State has Sid this year.

oldnavy
12-22-2010, 07:41 AM
I agree 100%. Some people seem to be a little to quick to jump on this "EXPOSED!" bandwagon when mathematically it makes NO SENSE.

The only way I think Roy has been EXPOSED as a coach is that prior to last season he had very little exposure to adversity (i.e., losing and poor play). Now he has gone through a rough season, he made it much MUCH worse than it needed to be with his ridiculous comments and behavior. Had he not been so dramatic with the woe is me routine, and the blame game most folks would have just written his season off as a bad year.

This year with similar results so far Roy has done a pretty good job of not tossing blame around and remaining positive. Maybe he learned from last year.

He is still a good coach, and like most coaches he is a better coach when he has elite talent. To me he is not or never has been a great coach. He is too stubborn and ridged, and is not a great tactician. I also do not believe he is a very good leader in the sense that he doesn't seem to get total buy-in from his players.

Take the team this year. I still sense that they cannot figure out who they are. They have more talent than any team they have played thus far, yet have a very mediocre record to show for it. Why? Has to be the coaching… doesn’t it. Roy loves to say, things look better when the ball goes in the basket… well duh! But it is the coach’s job to direct the team and dictate a style that increases the chances of the ball going in the basket. That comment is just another, less direct blame deflection.

But even I, the self proclaimed Roy basher cannot say that he is a bad coach.... far from it.

DevilHorns
12-22-2010, 08:07 AM
I don't want to alarm you, ncexnyc, but there is somebody posting on insidecarolina.com with your exact poster name and he appears to be a UNC fan.

How can that be?

From IC:


* ncexnyc
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* 113 posts this site
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Posted: 11/29/2010 9:48 PM
Re: Minn. & Vandy are 11-1
So is this what it's come too? Justifying our losses by talking about the record of the teams that beat us.


It must be my evil twin, or it could be I'm bi-polar.

Interesting pick up, Mr. White.

I will go as far to say that many other coaches in the NCAA could have kept last year's Tar Heel team from being an embarrassment (by that, I mean to simply make the NCAA tournament and not the NIT). To blame it on injuries is to not have actually watched the games. Roy had better talent on the floor on most nights. He couldn't get players to start playing better and believing. You could tell it by their body language. And who could blame them. What Roy said about his players throughout the season wasn't exactly motivating. "But what about the players? he just has a bad batch right now," you say? Well, he has over a team's worth of high school All-Americans, but beyond that, there was no evidence that he ever ''coached'' anyone up last year. If a player is struggling, he doesn't seem to set up plays on offense or treat it as a problem. Shooters just have to shoot themselves out of it, right? He just hopes the issues will solve themselves (similar to how he is treating Barnes right now, let him catch it on the perimeter, take a few steps to the basket and put up a contested shot VS Singler coming off screens for open looks and designed plays last year when he was struggling).

The saddest part of last year's debacle IMO is how they struggled to fill the seats in the Dean Dome after coming off a championship the year before. My cousin who goes to UNC told me they were handing out tickets to the Duke-UNC game at the Dome and didn't have enough students who wanted to attend! HOW ABSURD IS THAT! A state school that had won 2 championships in the last 6 years could not find enough loyal fans to fill the stands! ...and they weren't even that bad at that point when Mason behind-the-back double handed slammed them.

CharlestonDevil
12-22-2010, 08:55 AM
I don't particularly like Roy, but why should the last season and a third count more than the 20 seasons before that?

Because Roy didn't prance around like a fool while he was winning games then. Please refer to oldnavy's photo.

Looney. Tunes.

4decadedukie
12-22-2010, 09:23 AM
Ol Roy is very good when he has players to fit the only system he will run. If he doesn't have a point like Felton or Lawson, it just doesn't work. Instead of changing the system to fit the players (a la Duke last year) he just runs the secondary break offense, whether it works or not. Drew II can't do it. If he had Kyrie, unc would be rolling over people.
To me, that means that Roy is overrated. He has a lot of wins and a few rings, but look at the talent that was there both times.
It makes me question his class when he constantly blames his players. That is something K would never do. Putting them down because his system isn't working.
If he doesn't get it together next year, which I'm thinking he wont since there still wont be a lightening fast pg there, watch some of the fan base start turning on him like State has Sid this year.

I strongly agree. Life and leadership are not about the "hand one is dealt;" rather, success emphasizes -- and records -- how that hand is played. Coach K's genius is optimizing the aggregate team and the individual players each year. Many will recall the now-obsolete and never legitimate criticism of Duke (and K) re our alumni not preforming well in the NBA. Another -- and much more valid -- analytical conclusion based on the same facts substantiates my foregoing thesis; because Coach K made (and makes) so many student-athletes exceptionally productive FOR THEIR TEAM, they do not necessarily seem to perform at the same level in the NBA. This, however, is a deficiency in leadership, in coaching, and in integrating the constituent -- and ever changing -- individual players into an optimized unit. This, after all, is the principal function every leader (including coaches) is employed to do.

Kedsy
12-22-2010, 11:35 AM
Ol Roy is very good when he has players to fit the only system he will run. If he doesn't have a point like Felton or Lawson, it just doesn't work. Instead of changing the system to fit the players (a la Duke last year) he just runs the secondary break offense, whether it works or not.

This is a tired old myth and isn't any more true than the myths about Duke that get us all riled up. Do you have any evidence of this other than last year? He was very successful for 15 years at Kansas, and while his PGs were generally pretty good, there were very few years where he had a "point like Felton or Lawson."

And I've posted this earlier in the thread, but in 2005-06, his PG was Bobby Frasor and his rotation consisted of four freshmen (only one of which was a top 10 recruit) and five guys who combined to score 8.9 points the year before. He didn't run the system you say is "the only system he will run," and he ended up second place in the ACC and the #10 team in the nation in the final AP poll. How do you explain that?

Look, I'm really enjoying UNC's recent lack of success, but it doesn't mean we have to make things up.

superdave
12-22-2010, 01:21 PM
This is a tired old myth and isn't any more true than the myths about Duke that get us all riled up. Do you have any evidence of this other than last year? He was very successful for 15 years at Kansas, and while his PGs were generally pretty good, there were very few years where he had a "point like Felton or Lawson."

And I've posted this earlier in the thread, but in 2005-06, his PG was Bobby Frasor and his rotation consisted of four freshmen (only one of which was a top 10 recruit) and five guys who combined to score 8.9 points the year before. He didn't run the system you say is "the only system he will run," and he ended up second place in the ACC and the #10 team in the nation in the final AP poll. How do you explain that?

Look, I'm really enjoying UNC's recent lack of success, but it doesn't mean we have to make things up.

That's a good point, Kedsey. Bobby Frasor was never fast or an All-American. That 2006 over-achieved quite a bit. They had great chemistry and worked hard. This year - I have not see them enough to comment on their chemistry - but they are under-achieving based on expectations with above average pg's.

I dont think Roy Wiliams is a very good motivator or soother of bruised psyches though. Elite pg or not, I just dont think Roy Williams has been through enough program-building and adversity when he was younger to have a sense of how light the right fires and push the right buttons. I'm not sure he can make the right macro adjustments within the season to change the orbit of his team.

ClosetHurleyFan
12-22-2010, 03:44 PM
That's a good point, Kedsey. Bobby Frasor was never fast or an All-American. That 2006 over-achieved quite a bit. They had great chemistry and worked hard. This year - I have not see them enough to comment on their chemistry - but they are under-achieving based on expectations with above average pg's.

I dont think Roy Wiliams is a very good motivator or soother of bruised psyches though. Elite pg or not, I just dont think Roy Williams has been through enough program-building and adversity when he was younger to have a sense of how light the right fires and push the right buttons. I'm not sure he can make the right macro adjustments within the season to change the orbit of his team.


Wasnt Kansas coming off probation when he took over? For that matter, UNC had endured its worst stretch in like 35 years when he came in. I dont think he gets nearly enough credit for what he did with Felton, May, McCants, in terms of chemistry that was built and honestly the level of team defense that team played by tournament time. They were a mess the year before if you recall. In particular, he really found a nice niche for Jawad Williams on that team as well.

OldPhiKap
12-22-2010, 03:52 PM
This is a tired old myth and isn't any more true than the myths about Duke that get us all riled up. Do you have any evidence of this other than last year? He was very successful for 15 years at Kansas, and while his PGs were generally pretty good, there were very few years where he had a "point like Felton or Lawson."

And I've posted this earlier in the thread, but in 2005-06, his PG was Bobby Frasor and his rotation consisted of four freshmen (only one of which was a top 10 recruit) and five guys who combined to score 8.9 points the year before. He didn't run the system you say is "the only system he will run," and he ended up second place in the ACC and the #10 team in the nation in the final AP poll. How do you explain that?

Look, I'm really enjoying UNC's recent lack of success, but it doesn't mean we have to make things up.

As much fun as it is to make fun of Roy (I've done my share), the problems boil down to two main issues:

1. They have really bad point guard play; and
2. They have no leadership from the players.

I think everything else sort of springs from this.

Roy may not need an all-star pg to run his stuff, but everyone needs a serviceable one at minimum. And they ain't got it.

JMarley50
12-23-2010, 01:19 PM
As much fun as it is to make fun of Roy (I've done my share), the problems boil down to two main issues:

1. They have really bad point guard play; and
2. They have no leadership from the players.

I think everything else sort of springs from this.

I think this is the major problem! But it also reflects Roy's own leadership at the moment. Historically he hasn't really had leadership issues.

I think that sometime following the last championship, someone in the locker room developed a virus (for lack of a better term). Usually its a young, unhappy player that has convinced himself he knows more than the coach. With all of the post championship hoopla, and Roy being the "self-aware" (being nice here) guy that he is, I could see how the problem could have gotten over-looked or simply moved to the back burner. As we all know, viruses left untreated usually spread. The twins obviously had issues with him, hence their departure without even talking to him about it. But I doubt they were the source of the problem.

Regardless, I think what we saw last year was an "infected" team. I also think that Roy has started taking steps to eradicate the virus, hence the dismissal of Will Graves. Its probably why he hyped and put so much pressure on HB. He was hoping that HB could use his abilities on the court to come in and provide some leadership in the locker room as well.

It all just makes me appreciate our coaching staff even more. K and the crew, seem to always have their fingers on the pulse of the team. They immediately know when a problem like that pops up and it is quickly dealt with so it don't spread.

sagegrouse
12-23-2010, 01:31 PM
I think that sometime following the last championship, someone in the locker room developed a virus (for lack of a better term). Usually its a young, unhappy player that has convinced himself he knows more than the coach. With all of the post championship hoopla, and Roy being the "self-aware" (being nice here) guy that he is, I could see how the problem could have gotten over-looked or simply moved to the back burner. As we all know, viruses left untreated usually spread. The twins obviously had issues with him, hence their departure without even talking to him about it. But I doubt they were the source of the problem.

Regardless, I think what we saw last year was an "infected" team. I also think that Roy has started taking steps to eradicate the virus, hence the dismissal of Will Graves. Its probably why he hyped and put so much pressure on HB. He was hoping that HB could use his abilities on the court to come in and provide some leadership in the locker room as well.



It can happen to any team at any time. Duke has had a run of really solid citizens the past few years, so leadership has been wonderful.

Back in the 1990s at UNC, when Dean Smith was still on the bench, I am told he got so frustrated with his team that at practice he told them, "You coach yourselves. No one here is listening to me." And then he sat in the stands, and the players had to conduct the practices. I don't remember the year, but I am sure McInnis and Rasheed were on the squad.

sagegrouse
'My source is a Duke grad who went into the sports administration program at UNC and worked for the athletic department as a graduate assistant (translation: PE coach)'

-jk
12-23-2010, 01:40 PM
It can happen to any team at any time. Duke has had a run of really solid citizens the past few years, so leadership has been wonderful.

Back in the 1990s at UNC, when Dean Smith was still on the bench, I am told he got so frustrated with his team that at practice he told them, "You coach yourselves. No one here is listening to me." And then he sat in the stands, and the players had to conduct the practices. I don't remember the year, but I am sure McInnis and Rasheed were on the squad.

sagegrouse
'My source is a Duke grad who went into the sports administration program at UNC and worked for the athletic department as a graduate assistant (translation: PE coach)'

I was at a Duke-Wake game in G'boro once (between coliseums in Winston) sitting near the bench. K was not happy - storming up and down the bench, lamenting "I don't know why ... I'm talking to them. They don't do a ... thing I say. Eventually he sat and stopped talking to the players, and let them coach themselves. It wasn't pretty. But he got his point across.

-jk

JMarley50
12-23-2010, 02:11 PM
I was at a Duke-Wake game in G'boro once (between coliseums in Winston) sitting near the bench. K was not happy - storming up and down the bench, lamenting "I don't know why ... I'm talking to them. They don't do a ... thing I say. Eventually he sat and stopped talking to the players, and let them coach themselves. It wasn't pretty. But he got his point across.

-jk

That's why we love Coach K. He seems to always get his point across, and the players follow him. They might be hesitant or stubborn at times, but in the end they do it. And that is true of all great coaches.

Maybe someone should send Roy a couple of Coach K's books about leadership, and tell him to take all of the furniture out of the locker room, it works! Nah, never mind... we'll let things run their course. Maybe it will take a few more years! :cool:

swood1000
12-23-2010, 02:33 PM
There have been some very interesting remarks.

What belongs on a list of factors that can lead to team under-performance?

Inadequate leadership from the coach? How is this defined? Inability to connect with his players and to command respect and trust in bad times as well as good?
Lacking a player willing or able to assume the leadership role? Does this come down to the natural leader becoming dispirited?
Coach burnout? What does this look like?
Judgment issues? For example, actions such as having a fan ejected for urging a player to miss a free throw, etc. (see oldnavy’s photo), do not support the proposition that the coach’s judgment is reliable, or that he will keep the team free from ridicule.
Failure to properly deal with individual attitude problems? How does this play out?
Weakness at point guard?
A slump by a key player?
Some failure of honesty toward the players?
Player confidence or attitude issues from the prior season that spread, like a disease, to the new players? Maybe last season the coach blamed the players unfairly or lost their confidence, and this remains in the equation for them?
Fostering or allowing a tension that causes players to lose their rhythm and go into a slump?
Technical insufficiency on the part of the coach. Tends to be overlooked “when the ball is going in the basket.” Was Roy just saved in the past by being a good recruiter and always having enough players scoring well? Technical insufficiency might include:

Failing to optimize the matching of player tasks to player strengths
Using the same inappropriate or ineffective solution over and over


Any thoughts, either with respect to UNC or in the abstract?

PADukeMom
12-23-2010, 04:35 PM
I'll reserve judgement on Carolina until we are into confrence play & we are playing common opponents.
I do think a big part of their issues is leadership & not having a real point guard but then again, Jon Schyer wasn't a real point guard either & we all know how that turned out.:cool:

oldnavy
12-23-2010, 04:41 PM
That's why we love Coach K. He seems to always get his point across, and the players follow him. They might be hesitant or stubborn at times, but in the end they do it. And that is true of all great coaches.

Maybe someone should send Roy a couple of Coach K's books about leadership, and tell him to take all of the furniture out of the locker room, it works! Nah, never mind... we'll let things run their course. Maybe it will take a few more years! :cool:

One of Ol Roy's favorite sayings is that "it all looks better when the ball is going in the basket".

Well how much of a coaching genius do you have to be to come up with that? If you think about what he is really saying is that success is really dependant on how well the kids are scoring so if they ain’t putting the ball in the basket, well it ain’t Ol Roy’s fault. It is yet another way for him to deflect the blame back to the kids.
What about teaching them to play defense and create easy scoring opportunities?? There are going to be nights when no matter what you do, the ball is not falling as well as you would like, but you can always play good defense.

kong123
12-23-2010, 07:46 PM
you cannot win if you cannot score. if the kids are not making open shots, that isn't the coaches fault. even if the kids play great defense, the goal of the game is to have more points on the board than the other team. I realize I am not telling you something you do not already know, but if it was a team other than UNC, you wouldn't blame the coach as much.


the coach puts his team in position to score the basketball. if he succeeds and the team misses open shots, the responsibility falls on the players. I am not trying to defend Roy or bash the UNC players, but this can be said for every basketball team, even Duke's. Now recruiting players that can make shots is Roy's responsibility. He is currently failing with that. The kids are protecting the ball much better and playing much better defense. Is that due to the kids improvement? If so, does it have anything to do with coaching?

Devilsfan
12-23-2010, 07:57 PM
Swood1000 just nailed Ol'Roy and his programs recent problems. Maybe the old boy should just follow suitcase Larry Brown's lead and just step down. Just a suggestion. I hate to see him having such rough times for such little compensation (after taxes).

JMarley50
12-24-2010, 09:57 AM
you cannot win if you cannot score. if the kids are not making open shots, that isn't the coaches fault. even if the kids play great defense, the goal of the game is to have more points on the board than the other team. I realize I am not telling you something you do not already know, but if it was a team other than UNC, you wouldn't blame the coach as much.


the coach puts his team in position to score the basketball. if he succeeds and the team misses open shots, the responsibility falls on the players. I am not trying to defend Roy or bash the UNC players, but this can be said for every basketball team, even Duke's. Now recruiting players that can make shots is Roy's responsibility. He is currently failing with that. The kids are protecting the ball much better and playing much better defense. Is that due to the kids improvement? If so, does it have anything to do with coaching?

Am I missing something here? Aren't you suggesting that its not his fault, and that we are being biased in our criticism, while at the same time agreeing with us and blaming him?

I personally would blame the coach of another team if it was a program as large as UNC that has the same recruiting power. If it was a team like College of Charleston ;) who just isn't able to land as many top athletes (no matter how great the coach is) I wouldn't blame him as much. When a coach has the opportunity to pick and choose from the best high school athletes in the country (as Roy does) the blame does belong on him.

When poor shooting lasts more than a couple of games either A: The team is not getting enough shooting in, (before practice, after practice, between classes, etc) B: You have a team made up of poor shooters. or C: You have not designed an offense that allows them to get good open looks. Regardless it is the coach's fault.

oldnavy
12-24-2010, 11:46 AM
Am I missing something here? Aren't you suggesting that its not his fault, and that we are being biased in our criticism, while at the same time agreeing with us and blaming him?

I personally would blame the coach of another team if it was a program as large as UNC that has the same recruiting power. If it was a team like College of Charleston ;) who just isn't able to land as many top athletes (no matter how great the coach is) I wouldn't blame him as much. When a coach has the opportunity to pick and choose from the best high school athletes in the country (as Roy does) the blame does belong on him.

When poor shooting lasts more than a couple of games either A: The team is not getting enough shooting in, (before practice, after practice, between classes, etc) B: You have a team made up of poor shooters. or C: You have not designed an offense that allows them to get good open looks. Regardless it is the coach's fault.


I have a problem with the blame game and I hate excuses.

Having spent most of my adult life in the Navy I am not accustomed to seeing leadership pass the blame down the chain of command. The man or woman in charge is always responsible for what happens on their watch. That is the bottom line, no excuses.

Roy likes to blame the kids for not doing what he says or wants, but that really is an indictment on his coaching and leadership.

Roy is bad about this, but even worse is the whole ridiculous argument for Butch Davis which boils down to basically this... He didn't know what was going on... REALLY? He is making several million dollars a year to know what is going on, so the fact (or lie) that he didn't know not only DOES NOT excuse him, it makes him even more culpable and negligent in my opinion.

A more honorable person would step up and say, that it was his responsibility to know what was going on and that he had failed. He would also say that he had failed in creating an environment where everyone understood that cheating would not be tolerated and that he would take quick and decisive action to remove anyone from the program who was or gave the appearance of doing anything outside of the rules.

Butch should offer his resignation for failing at his job and allowing the UNC tradition of running a clean program to become tarnished by his lack of leadership. Now, if he did this, UNC could refuse it, and give him another chance (I have no problem with second chances!) to straighten up and fly right. Then everyone comes out looking good. To say I didn’t know… well that is inexcusable and a leader should never hide behind that.

You can delegate authority, but you can not delegate responsibility.

camion
12-24-2010, 12:41 PM
There have been some very interesting remarks.

What belongs on a list of factors that can lead to team under-performance?

Inadequate leadership from the coach? How is this defined? Inability to connect with his players and to command respect and trust in bad times as well as good?
Lacking a player willing or able to assume the leadership role? Does this come down to the natural leader becoming dispirited?
Coach burnout? What does this look like?
Judgment issues? For example, actions such as having a fan ejected for urging a player to miss a free throw, etc. (see oldnavy’s photo), do not support the proposition that the coach’s judgment is reliable, or that he will keep the team free from ridicule.
Failure to properly deal with individual attitude problems? How does this play out?
Weakness at point guard?
A slump by a key player?
Some failure of honesty toward the players?
Player confidence or attitude issues from the prior season that spread, like a disease, to the new players? Maybe last season the coach blamed the players unfairly or lost their confidence, and this remains in the equation for them?
Fostering or allowing a tension that causes players to lose their rhythm and go into a slump?
Technical insufficiency on the part of the coach. Tends to be overlooked “when the ball is going in the basket.” Was Roy just saved in the past by being a good recruiter and always having enough players scoring well? Technical insufficiency might include:

Failing to optimize the matching of player tasks to player strengths
Using the same inappropriate or ineffective solution over and over


Any thoughts, either with respect to UNC or in the abstract?

Over-expectation = under-performance in some cases.

Devilsfan
12-24-2010, 05:11 PM
How immature and ignorant is the heel's fan base. A friend of mine who is a carolina fan just got banned from IC for saying nice (true) things about Coach K and his recruiting and also his guiding Team USA to two gold metals.

Bluedevil114
12-28-2010, 09:15 PM
When Henson turns sideways, he is almost invisible. Classic!!