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View Full Version : WBB: Duke 46, Xavier 45



CameronBornAndBred
12-19-2010, 02:41 PM
Tuesday night the Duke women will face Xavier in Cameron. This is a huge game for both teams. For some insane reason, it is not televised unless you subscribe to the video feed on Goduke.com. (I get the 4 month subscribtion, covers the ladies' season nicely.)
Right now Duke is ranked 4th after leaping over Xavier in both polls, Xavier is 5th. Both teams are undefeated, and by game time both teams likely will have moved up a spot to 3rd and 4th due to Stanford's loss earlier this week. Looking at scoring, both teams seem well matched up in terms of output and margin of victory. Xavier's shooting percentage is better (48.3% - 43.3%), we rebound better, but perhaps biggest of all is that we turn the ball over more. This should be a great, tough fought game, hopefully with a big home crowd turning out to support the women.
Still can't believe this top 5 matchup is not on TV..that's so wrong.

CameronBornAndBred
12-20-2010, 03:26 PM
Goduke.com has the game notes up.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?&ATCLID=205057790&DB_OEM_ID=4200

juise
12-21-2010, 07:37 PM
ESPN Gametracker (http://scores.espn.go.com/ncw/gamecast?gameId=303550150)

Duke is up 1 with 4 minutes to go in the half. It appears to be a defensive struggle at this point (30%FG for Duke, 35%FG for Xavier).

DU82
12-21-2010, 08:00 PM
Halftime 28-25 Xavier. Good/great D on both sides, but man, are we taking some reaalynbad shots. We have very little offense other than one on one drive with forced shots. Doesn't work against tall, good teams.

CameronBornAndBred
12-21-2010, 08:08 PM
We start second with two quick turnovers (and a bucket), they shoot well. Now down by 7 early...grrr. LGD!!!

CameronBornAndBred
12-21-2010, 08:38 PM
Women have fought back..but we still can't shoot a layup. We have had about 10 opportunities in a row to convert turnovers into points and came up empty...grrr.

juise
12-21-2010, 08:59 PM
Nice resume-building win for Duke. The gametracker made it look pretty exciting... though the missed free throws were starting to remind me of Lindsay Harding's last game (completely different context, obviously).

CB&B, did you watch it streaming? Care to give some analysis?

CameronBornAndBred
12-21-2010, 08:59 PM
WOW!!!! Duke wins with an amazing finish, the Xavier coaches tried to attack the refs, security had to be called down to the court.

CEF1959
12-21-2010, 09:11 PM
WOW!!!! Duke wins with an amazing finish, the Xavier coaches tried to attack the refs, security had to be called down to the court.

Great win! Good for them. It's a hard working team.

Though if there is a referee controversy (real or imagined), the haters will be all over it.

Acymetric
12-21-2010, 09:13 PM
WOW!!!! Duke wins with an amazing finish, the Xavier coaches tried to attack the refs, security had to be called down to the court.

Interested to see video of the end when it gets posted online (haven't seen it anywhere yet). What exactly happened?

CameronBornAndBred
12-21-2010, 09:13 PM
Great win! Good for them. It's a hard working team.

Though if there is a referee controversy (real or imagined), the haters will be all over it.
The ref was right on top of it, called clean block. You are right on the haters. It will be plastered on ESPN I bet. (Even though they couldn't bother to show the game)

juise
12-21-2010, 09:15 PM
The ref was right on top of it, called clean block. You are right on the haters. It will be plastered on ESPN I bet. (Even though they couldn't bother to show the game)

Are there a lot of Duke WBB haters out there? Aside from ACC rivals, I didn't realize that. If the highlights are in the first 15 minutes of SportsCenter, I would be surprised.

uh_no
12-21-2010, 09:17 PM
(Even though they couldn't bother to show the game)

There was some other women's bball game on tonight.....

glad duke won

burnspbesq
12-21-2010, 09:18 PM
That's one where you just shake your head and say, "we stole that one."

Phillips and Harris are every bit as good as advertised; they combined for something like 32 and 35. The rest of Xavier, well, 30 turnovers is a concise guide to why they lost.

I thought Duke was dead at 45-40 down, but Jaz and Rima bulled their way to the rim for layups, Allison Vernerey made two huge defensive plays, and Jaz and KT made two of four from the line in the last minute. Jaz also made a miraculous defensive play at the buzzer, coming from nowhere to block what looked like an open layup after a horrible breakdown on the inbounds play (reminiscent of the Duke men's loss up in Alaska a number of years ago).

The box score is going to be ugly. Duke probably shot less than 35 percent from the floor, and was outrebounded badly. On the other hand, the line score is sweet.

Huge, huge win. Congrats to the team and staff.

CameronBornAndBred
12-21-2010, 09:18 PM
Are there a lot of Duke WBB haters out there? Aside from ACC rivals, I didn't realize that. If the highlights are in the first 15 minutes of SportsCenter, I would be surprised.
We'll see. When 2 coaches have to be restrained from assaulting the ref, it will likely show up.

Acymetric
12-21-2010, 09:19 PM
Are there a lot of Duke WBB haters out there? Aside from ACC rivals, I didn't realize that. If the highlights are in the first 15 minutes of SportsCenter, I would be surprised.

Not specifically for WBB, but any excuse to hate on Duke in any sport will be gladly picked up by the media. The hating doesn't just start and stop for the men's team...the whole school is a target.

burnspbesq
12-21-2010, 09:30 PM
Gametracker is still up on goduke.com. It says Duke shot 26.8 percent from the floor (19-71), and was outrebounded 51-37. If all you knew was those two things, you would figure we lost by 20.

Tappan Zee Devil
12-21-2010, 09:40 PM
Has Coach P ever discussed (or been asked) about why her team cannot shoot lay ups? I follow games on game tracker and keep thinking "this can't be what is actually happening" - and then on the few televised games see that it is true.

It is simply mind-boggling.

tieguy
12-21-2010, 09:42 PM
Gametracker is still up on goduke.com. It says Duke shot 26.8 percent from the floor (19-71), and was outrebounded 51-37. If all you knew was those two things, you would figure we lost by 20.

If the espn boxscore is accurate, we scored only .64 points per possession. That's horrendous. But obviously the defense was even better than the offense was horrendous. :)

watzone
12-21-2010, 10:32 PM
http://bluedevilnation.net/2010/12/late-jasmine-thomas-block-helps-3-duke-secure-a-thrilling-win-over-4-xavier/ Game story, Coach P audio, pics. Jasmine makes a block with no time left on the clock to secrue a 1 point win over #4 Xavier.

CameronBornAndBred
12-21-2010, 10:35 PM
Nice resume-building win for Duke. The gametracker made it look pretty exciting... though the missed free throws were starting to remind me of Lindsay Harding's last game (completely different context, obviously).

CB&B, did you watch it streaming? Care to give some analysis?
I did watch. If we can figure out how to shoot a layup, this game would have been a blowout in Duke's favor, despite the rebounding difference. Our defense is amazing to watch, although at points in this game it wasn't always the signature pressure D that defines the women. Those lapses let Xavier have the lead for a while, but obviously the ladies stepped back up. Two stats won the game...Xavier had 17 points in the second half, and 18 turnovers. Unfortunately we weren't able to convert those TO's to points, but it happened enough that we won. I don't know how long the stretch was, but there had to be at least 5 or 6 minutes that we didn't score, and Xavier pretty much matched our futility.
I watched the post game press conference, and P let it be known that she was not happy with the offense, she termed it "horrendous" or something similar. As Juise said, I would love for someone to ask her why we can't shoot a layup. It's one thing if it's well contested, but several weren't. I saw two airballs from 3 feet out. (One was an AV hook, the other I think from Karima).
Alison is a huge asset on D, she deserves a lot of credit for the win tonight. If she get her offense in gear, she could be an all-conference player. As frustrating as it was to watch (as well as enjoyable!), the ladies are coming off a long break, like the men. To come away with the victory tonight was very impressive, this was a game between two teams that could very well meet again in the FF or Elite Eight.
A couple notes...
This was the first game that the ladies trailed at halftime.
Duke made a huge improvement with turnovers. They only had 12 the entire game, 6 per half. They forced 30. Unfortunately we rarely converted those TO's to points.
Xavier's top player (not top scorer) is named Special. Seriously.

CameronBornAndBred
12-21-2010, 10:39 PM
Are there a lot of Duke WBB haters out there? Aside from ACC rivals, I didn't realize that. If the highlights are in the first 15 minutes of SportsCenter, I would be surprised.
I'll have to take my prediction back. If this game were played on any other night than the night that UCONN broke UCLA's record though...lol. It's all about Geno on this day.

jimsumner
12-21-2010, 10:52 PM
I did watch. If we can figure out how to shoot a layup, this game would have been a blowout in Duke's favor, despite the rebounding difference. Our defense is amazing to watch, although at points in this game it wasn't always the signature pressure D that defines the women. Those lapses let Xavier have the lead for a while, but obviously the ladies stepped back up. Two stats won the game...Xavier had 17 points in the second half, and 18 turnovers. Unfortunately we weren't able to convert those TO's to points, but it happened enough that we won.
I watched the post game press conference, and P let it be known that she was not happy with the offense, she termed it "horrendous" or something similar. As Juise said, I would love for someone to ask her why we can't shoot a layup. It's one thing if it's well contested, but several weren't. I saw two airballs from 3 feet out. (One was an AV hook, the other I think from Karima).
Alison is a huge asset on D, she deserves a lot of credit for the win tonight. If she get her offense in gear, she could be an all-conference player. As frustrating as it was to watch (as well as enjoyable!), the ladies are coming off a long break, like the men. To come away with the victory tonight was very impressive, this was a game between two teams that could very well meet again in the FF or Elite Eight.
A couple notes...
This was the first game that the ladies trailed at halftime.
Duke made a huge improvement with turnovers. They only had 12 the entire game, 6 per half. They forced 30. Unfortunately we rarely converted those TO's to points.
Xavier's top player (not top scorer) is named Special. Seriously.

Duke really rushed their shots inside. Some shots could be accurately described as throwing-the-ball-in-the-general-direction-of-the-basket-and-hoping-something-good-happens-by-some-miracle.

Harris is good, real good. And Philips is a load. This game was quite physical and the officials let a lot of stuff go, both ways. Duke got stuffed and knocked down early on drives and as a result just didn't finish with authority. Basically, Xavier's defense was better than Duke's offense and Duke's defense was better than Xavier's offense. Hence, 46-45.

But look at it this way. Duke shot 26.8% from the field, 13.3% on 3s, 50% from the line and was outrebounded by 14 against a 4th-ranked and undefeated team. And won.

Duke had to draw on some reserves to do that. That should come in handy down the line.

Look at it this way, part 2. Given Duke's schedule, how likely was it that Duke would be 12-0 after this game?

CameronBornAndBred
12-21-2010, 11:04 PM
Look at it this way, part 2. Given Duke's schedule, how likely was it that Duke would be 12-0 after this game?
I was actually pretty confident that they would be undefeated now. I feel better about this team than I have of any since P has been here. She can go a long way with this group, and games like this will be important confidence builders. I'm really looking forward to seeing how they are looking in late February.

tieguy
12-21-2010, 11:28 PM
I was actually pretty confident that they would be undefeated now. I feel better about this team than I have of any since P has been here. She can go a long way with this group, and games like this will be important confidence builders. I'm really looking forward to seeing how they are looking in late February.

I was optimistic about this team too, but so far all signs point towards more of the same. Yes, we're undefeated, but close games like the ones against A&M and Xavier are coin-flips. (In fact, teams that win by only one at home are usually *much worse* than the losing team: http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/the_head-to-head_fallacy/ ) And the offense continues to be terrible in big games; 0.64 points per possession tonight and .85 against A&M. (For comparison if you're not familiar with per-possession stats, the average team in the men's game usually scores around 1 point per possession, and G's teams tended to score around 1.1 points per possession. Each of P's seasons at Duke have ended below 1 ppg, though so far this year we're at 1.02, which is merely mediocre rather than outright bad.)

The season is still young, the defense is still insanely great, and offensive lightbulbs can still turn on. But this game (and the misleading undefeated record) are not proof that any progress has been made so far, I'm afraid.

~tieguy

CameronBornAndBred
12-21-2010, 11:49 PM
and G's teams tended to score around 1.1 points per possession. Each of P's seasons at Duke have ended below 1 ppg, though so far this year we're at 1.02, which is merely mediocre rather than outright bad.)

G is not coming back. Also, G has not had the success at Texas that she was expected to. McCallie has continued the excellence at Duke.
We are ranked #3 in the country, we are undefeated, and in the process we have beaten two top ten teams, one of those was a victory on their court. I'm pretty happy with our being "mereley mediocre".

Duvall
12-21-2010, 11:58 PM
We are ranked #3 in the country, we are undefeated, and in the process we have beaten two top ten teams, one of those was a victory on their court.

Which one?

CameronBornAndBred
12-22-2010, 12:03 AM
Which one?
Texas A&M...ooops
My bad..you are correct. Not sure why I was thinking we played there. We played them in Cameron. Still won :)

tieguy
12-22-2010, 12:39 AM
G is not coming back. Also, G has not had the success at Texas that she was expected to.

I'm well aware G is not coming back, and I'm well aware she has not had success at Texas. I merely quoted those numbers because I don't have equivalent statistics at hand for any other women's teams, and wanted to show that good women's teams do frequently surpass 1 point per game. If you've got a source for better stats for other teams, I'd love to look at them.


McCallie has continued the excellence at Duke.

No. She's continued winning a lot of games, but she has no Final Fours, and at no point have the pollsters considered us the #2 team. That is very, very good, and most teams would be happy with a conference title, an elite eight, and a sweet sixteen in a three year span. But it isn't excellence. (Note that I'm even conceding that #1 and titles are unreachable for the time being. Which is sort of sad since it wasn't that long ago we won at UConn.)

Mind you, the defense is so good that I'm sure a Final Four is in our near future, and once that happens, all you need is a few lucky bounces to win the whole thing. And I'll be as thrilled as anyone when that happens. But those banners are the standards for excellence and we're not there yet.


We are ranked #3 in the country, we are undefeated, and in the process we have beaten two top ten teams, one of those was a victory on their court. I'm pretty happy with our being "mereley mediocre".

Neither of the wins was a road win, unless goduke and espn are lying to me. They're 1 point and 3 point home wins, which are (on average) likely indications that we would have lost by several more points had they been a road game. Obviously I'd rather be undefeated than not, but I'd also rather have wins by large margins than margins that are so close that they mostly reflect home-court advantage.

I should also note that I didn't say the team was mediocre; the *offense* is mediocre. That's only half the game, and the brain-meltingly good defense keeps us in games even when the offense stinks. (Make no mistake that the offense stunk tonight, and with the exception of one game against an overrated OSU team, it pretty much always stinks against good teams.) So given that we're insanely, mind-blowingly good at 50% of the game, we're overall pretty good.

But great basketball- *excellent* basketball- means being great on both offense and defense. That's how K wins; that's how every great coach and great team wins. Right now we don't do that- we have *insanely* great D, but our O... not so much. Until we fix that, we won't be an excellent team, and we'll continue to be regularly beat on by the UConns, Stanfords, and Tennessees of this world.

~tieguy (who was sitting on the baseline for last year's Stanford embarrassment, where we looked like a high school team on offense even when we looked like a WNBA team on D)

uh_no
12-22-2010, 12:57 AM
(Note that I'm even conceding that #1 and titles are unreachable for the time being. Which is sort of sad since it wasn't that long ago we won at UConn.)


And do you remember who won the title that year anyway?

CameronBornAndBred
12-22-2010, 01:06 AM
I should also note that I didn't say the team was mediocre; the *offense* is mediocre. That's only half the game, and the brain-meltingly good defense keeps us in games even when the offense stinks.
Appreciate the clarification. The offense wasn't mediocre tonight, it sucked. If it was only marginal, we would have blown Xavier out. Believe me, I feel your frustration on that point, join us for chat and you will see me cringe at every missed layup and shot that is just heaved up. But I've also seen our offense be very good this year, unfortunately only in spurts. Duke is a team in progress, and one with lofty goals. I loved Jasmine's quote tonight towards the end of the press conference, she said she congratulated UCONN on their streak, but she also congratulates the team that is going to end that streak. I had no doubt that she was talking about her team. Whether or not it happens is irrelevant, what matters is that these Blue Devils have the confidence to believe they can do it. That is a big difference compared to last year.

tieguy
12-22-2010, 01:13 AM
these Blue Devils have the confidence to believe they can do it. That is a big difference compared to last year.

That's huge, if true; certainly hope you're right. Hope also that someone devises an offensive plan to score some buckets. ;)

stillcrazie
12-22-2010, 08:18 AM
I was at the game but would like to be able to see Jasmine's block again. Can someone please post a link if you can find one? Thanks.

Indoor66
12-22-2010, 08:56 AM
I was at the game but would like to be able to see Jasmine's block again. Can someone please post a link if you can find one? Thanks.

The "Front Page" referenced a video in the game write-up but did not have link that I could find. I would love to see the play.

stillcrazie
12-22-2010, 09:03 AM
There are some great photos up here:

http://www.dwhoops.com/1011/1012212-duke-46-xavier-45.php

I found this link on the Duke Women's Basketball facebook page.

4decadedukie
12-22-2010, 09:05 AM
This is a GREAT WIN, in an obviously highly contested game, against a strong team -- one in which Duke can take real pride. Unfortunately, there was no coverage in the DC area (grrrr). I how I can see the final moments and the blocking call on ESPN News or the web. CONGRATULATIONS to Coach P and her team.

stillcrazie
12-22-2010, 09:08 AM
http://scores.espn.go.com/ncw/photos?gameId=303550150&photoId=1025026#photo_1025000

From this photo, it seems that the block was clean. Jasmine's arm is touching Jennings's hand after the ball has already left Jennings's hands.

jv001
12-22-2010, 09:17 AM
Appreciate the clarification. The offense wasn't mediocre tonight, it sucked. If it was only marginal, we would have blown Xavier out. Believe me, I feel your frustration on that point, join us for chat and you will see me cringe at every missed layup and shot that is just heaved up. But I've also seen our offense be very good this year, unfortunately only in spurts. Duke is a team in progress, and one with lofty goals. I loved Jasmine's quote tonight towards the end of the press conference, she said she congratulated UCONN on their streak, but she also congratulates the team that is going to end that streak. I had no doubt that she was talking about her team. Whether or not it happens is irrelevant, what matters is that these Blue Devils have the confidence to believe they can do it. That is a big difference compared to last year.

I've enjoyed your posts on Duke WBB. It seems to me that we have not had a good shooting team in a couple of years now. What we've had is very good defensive teams and defense wins games. But I think this team will be a much better shooting team by years end.
I don't see us beating UConn unless we shoot lights out and stranger things have happened. Go Duke!

stillcrazie
12-22-2010, 09:30 AM
http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?&db_oem_id=4200&id=742290&DB_MENU_ID=&SPSID=22760&SPID=1846&DB_OEM_ID=4200

Great view of the block at the end. I had to stop, rewind, and watch it several times, but it does appear that Jasmine's arm does not hit the shooter's until after the block.

sagegrouse
12-22-2010, 09:58 AM
http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?&db_oem_id=4200&id=742290&DB_MENU_ID=&SPSID=22760&SPID=1846&DB_OEM_ID=4200

Great view of the block at the end. I had to stop, rewind, and watch it several times, but it does appear that Jasmine's arm does not hit the shooter's until after the block.

Looks like a clean block to me. -- sagegrouse

-jk
12-22-2010, 10:16 AM
http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?&db_oem_id=4200&id=742290&DB_MENU_ID=&SPSID=22760&SPID=1846&DB_OEM_ID=4200

Great view of the block at the end. I had to stop, rewind, and watch it several times, but it does appear that Jasmine's arm does not hit the shooter's until after the block.

Well, it would still be a foul on the shot, just as it is on three point shooters that get hit after the release, so long as it's still part of the motion of shooting.


Rule 4.14: Continuous Motion
Continuous motion applies to a try for field goal or free throw, but shall have no significance unless there is a foul by the defense during the interval that begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.

It seems to me the ball was not "clearly in flight"; all the contact happened during the shooting motion as usually interpreted. I can see a good argument for a foul being called there if there was arm contact after the block. If they would have called it at the 2 minute mark, they should call it at the 2 second mark. If we'd hit a shot or two more, it wouldn't have mattered.

Refs aren't perfect - that's just part of the game. So long as they're consistent, I'll be mostly satisfied.

(Of course, Boozer was fouled, too. You win some; you lose some. Now from what I heard about the Elon officiating...)

-jk

richardjackson199
12-22-2010, 10:22 AM
Looks like a clean block to me. -- sagegrouse

Someone has to play devil's advocate on this board. It looked like a definite foul to me. But those things are part of the game, and Thomas was smart to try to block or even foul at that point. The defense had been beaten and you can't give up the layup. Regardless, the Xavier coach had no right to respond the way he did. But I really thought it looked like a foul - you can't rake across a player's arms like that from behind when they're in the act of shooting. For example, players shooting a 3 ball who get raked like that just after the 3-ball leaves their hand get a chance for the 4-point play. It's a foul. Especially when the offensive player has beaten the defense, if you're going to get the block it really should be very clean. That was a foul.

killerleft
12-22-2010, 10:28 AM
Someone has to play devil's advocate on this board. It looked like a definite foul to me. But those things are part of the game, and Thomas was smart to try to block or even foul at that point. The defense had been beaten and you can't give up the layup. Regardless, the Xavier coach had no right to respond the way he did. But I really thought it looked like a foul - you can't rake across a player's arms like that from behind when they're in the act of shooting. For example, players shooting a 3 ball who get raked like that just after the 3-ball leaves their hand get a chance for the 4-point play. It's a foul. Especially when the offensive player has beaten the defense, if you're going to get the block it really should be very clean. That was a foul.

No, Devil's Advocate, you need to check the stats.;) Seriously, looked clean, but the refs will usually call a foul on that play.

4decadedukie
12-22-2010, 10:31 AM
I watched the GoDuke.Com clip several times and -- no partisanship -- it appears to be a clean blocked shot, not a foul.

oldnavy
12-22-2010, 10:32 AM
I vote clean block. But I do agree that most of the time that would be called a foul.

jv001
12-22-2010, 10:35 AM
I watched the GoDuke.Com clip several times and -- no partisanship -- it appears to be a clean blocked shot, not a foul.

The way I always look at something like this is: If Duke had been on the bad end of the call (Boozer), would I still think it was a good call or good no call(Thomas)? Go Duke!

stillcrazie
12-22-2010, 10:38 AM
Another question is whether this non-call was consistent with other calls/non-calls over the course of the game. Any observations on this?

jv001
12-22-2010, 10:53 AM
Another question is whether this non-call was consistent with other calls/non-calls over the course of the game. Any observations on this?

This is a very good point. I have no problems when the refs call the game the same way all the way through the game. Don't change at the end of the game. It looked like a clean block to me. The play happened so fast it was hard to tell if there was contact after the block. Go Duke!

Namtilal
12-22-2010, 11:25 AM
It has to be said. That block was Battier-esque.

richardjackson199
12-22-2010, 11:26 AM
The way I always look at something like this is: If Duke had been on the bad end of the call (Boozer), would I still think it was a good call or good no call(Thomas)? Go Duke!

Regardless of the last play - Duke won the game last night fair and square. The ref chose not to blow the whistle, there is no instant replay for that (a good thing imo), and the horn sounded with Duke up by 1. Just like Indiana beat Duke fair and square in the 2002 game. What the referee does or does not do is part of the game. It adds some uncertainty and human subjectivity, but you just have to accept it as part of the game. Referees are humans who must make snap judgments in real time. If they're competent and doing their best, I have no problem with one particular difficult call. If you want to win the game - your team has 40 minutes to get it done. Xavier had plenty of opportunities to put more points on the board before the last 2.5 seconds. Just like Duke shouldn't whine about a referee when we lose right after Jason Williams misses the free-throw that would have tied it. Indiana won that game fair and square (and I was happy to see a deserving Maryland group of winners later earn a championship). Whining about referees' calls and making excuses is sour grapes. A wise man once said winning is about ... having no excuses. That wise man's name was Mike Krzyzewski.

MB in MD
12-22-2010, 11:29 AM
But I really thought it looked like a foul - you can't rake across a player's arms like that from behind when they're in the act of shooting. For example, players shooting a 3 ball who get raked like that just after the 3-ball leaves their hand get a chance for the 4-point play.

I think the analogy to hitting a 3 point shooter after the ball leaves is flawed. Without knowing how this particular game was called, in general refs give the nod to defenses on blocked shots if the block itself gets "all ball" as this one clearly did. There are lots of things still called blocks when there is contact after the block. It may not be the rule, but it seems to be the custom (Where is the Playcaller anyway?)

Another thing that amused me about the video is I think every single one of Duke's field goals was a "highlight"; I'd have to go back and count to be sure. There also wasn't a single shot of tight defense forcing a bad shot, or even a forced turnover. We can say all we want about defense winning championships, offense is what people seem to like to see.

stillcrazie
12-22-2010, 11:51 AM
Another thing that amused me about the video is I think every single one of Duke's field goals was a "highlight"; I'd have to go back and count to be sure. There also wasn't a single shot of tight defense forcing a bad shot, or even a forced turnover. We can say all we want about defense winning championships, offense is what people seem to like to see.

This is unfortunately true. The (poor) offense was the least interesting part of the game last night. It would have been nice to see some of the forced turnovers and steals on the highlight reel.

Kedsy
12-22-2010, 11:52 AM
http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?&db_oem_id=4200&id=742290&DB_MENU_ID=&SPSID=22760&SPID=1846&DB_OEM_ID=4200

Great view of the block at the end. I had to stop, rewind, and watch it several times, but it does appear that Jasmine's arm does not hit the shooter's until after the block.

Funny that except for the last play every single highlight was on offense. The block does look pretty clean, although I might point out that contact "after the block" is still a foul. Still, based on the video I wouldn't have called it if I was the ref.


EDIT: Now that I've read the whole thread, I see others have made the same points I did. Sorry for the repetition.

Namtilal
12-22-2010, 12:07 PM
Without knowing how this particular game was called, in general refs give the nod to defenses on blocked shots if the block itself gets "all ball" as this one clearly did. There are lots of things still called blocks when there is contact after the block. It may not be the rule, but it seems to be the custom (Where is the Playcaller anyway?)

Good point. If the initial part of the block is all ball, then the continuation foul is rarely called -- and it is somewhat debatable here whether there even was a continuation foul (although there probably was).

Here's a question -- could any possible contact after the block have come at 0:00, meaning it can't be a foul, no matter what?

miramar
12-22-2010, 12:12 PM
Has Coach P ever discussed (or been asked) about why her team cannot shoot lay ups? I follow games on game tracker and keep thinking "this can't be what is actually happening" - and then on the few televised games see that it is true.

It is simply mind-boggling.

I didn't see this game, but in the past you would often see the players either flying down the lane, or coming down with an offensive rebound in a strange position, or with a couple of defenders hanging on them, and they would still attempt the shot. So while they may be attempting a layup or a shot in the paint, they are still low percentage shots. That doesn't fully explain why a team would shoot 27%, but good shot selection has been a problem.

-jk
12-22-2010, 12:24 PM
Good point. If the initial part of the block is all ball, then the continuation foul is rarely called -- and it is somewhat debatable here whether there even was a continuation foul (although there probably was).

Here's a question -- could any possible contact after the block have come at 0:00, meaning it can't be a foul, no matter what?

I thought of that, but there was 1.0 seconds remaining on the overhead clock. Just to add to the discussion, here's a screen grab:

1793

Looks to me like she may have gotten some wrist, but it's real close to just hand. The ref should have had a better angle.

-jk

jv001
12-22-2010, 12:37 PM
Regardless of the last play - Duke won the game last night fair and square. The ref chose not to blow the whistle, there is no instant replay for that (a good thing imo), and the horn sounded with Duke up by 1. Just like Indiana beat Duke fair and square in the 2002 game. What the referee does or does not do is part of the game. It adds some uncertainty and human subjectivity, but you just have to accept it as part of the game. Referees are humans who must make snap judgments in real time. If they're competent and doing their best, I have no problem with one particular difficult call. If you want to win the game - your team has 40 minutes to get it done. Xavier had plenty of opportunities to put more points on the board before the last 2.5 seconds. Just like Duke shouldn't whine about a referee when we lose right after Jason Williams misses the free-throw that would have tied it. Indiana won that game fair and square (and I was happy to see a deserving Maryland group of winners later earn a championship). Whining about referees' calls and making excuses is sour grapes. A wise man once said winning is about ... having no excuses. That wise man's name was Mike Krzyzewski.

I stopped whinning about the refs along time ago. Life's too short to live and die on a refs call or no call. I just love watching my Blue Devils. Love em win or lose. Go Duke!

grossbus
12-22-2010, 01:14 PM
"Another question is whether this non-call was consistent with other calls/non-calls over the course of the game. Any observations on this?"

they did not call contact on shots around the basket all night. one of the reasons we missed some of those layups.

some of our "layups" were just plain bad shots.

this team has had problems with layups even back into the G era (count the number of first half missed layups against MD in the championship game...we should have been up 20 at the half, not 10).

Lid
12-22-2010, 01:28 PM
"Another question is whether this non-call was consistent with other calls/non-calls over the course of the game. Any observations on this?"

they did not call contact on shots around the basket all night. one of the reasons we missed some of those layups.
Agree with this. The whistles were not being blown last night for fouls in general, so this one doesn't really stick out (except, of course, for the fact that it was the last shot of the game).

devildeac
12-22-2010, 01:51 PM
The Boozer argument is not a particularly good one. After the game, IIRC, Jeffries readily admitted he "grabbed him by the arm pretty good" or something to that effect. I did not see this play/replay, but the pixs shown here would appear to make this a marginal foul call at best.

Deslok
12-22-2010, 01:53 PM
"Another question is whether this non-call was consistent with other calls/non-calls over the course of the game. Any observations on this?"

they did not call contact on shots around the basket all night. one of the reasons we missed some of those layups.

some of our "layups" were just plain bad shots.

this team has had problems with layups even back into the G era (count the number of first half missed layups against MD in the championship game...we should have been up 20 at the half, not 10).
You mean like Iciss "I can hit the 3pter but not the 3 fter" Tillis?

NSDukeFan
12-22-2010, 03:22 PM
The Boozer argument is not a particularly good one. After the game, IIRC, Jeffries readily admitted he "grabbed him by the arm pretty good" or something to that effect. I did not see this play/replay, but the pixs shown here would appear to make this a marginal foul call at best.

I think it would be awfully hard for a ref to call a foul in that situation. Thomas got all ball as the Xavier player was going up. If you watch the play over and over or look at every picture, you might be able to find some contact with her arm after the shot, which is technically a foul, but not reasonable to call, IMO.

ricks68
12-22-2010, 04:08 PM
Technically, I believe it was a foul, but aren't those kind of calls usually made when there is some sort of other body contact during the block itself? While we, as spectators, are looking at the block itself, we often do not look for the other body contact that the refs look for. The other body contact (very slight) did not happen until after the block---like a 3 point foul on the hand or arm during the continuation---and refs usually do not like to call game deciding fouls in the end that are certainly iffy. Also, because it was so slight, they also could have just plain missed it. Either way, the photos show throughout the game that, even in my prime, I wouldn't ever have wanted to play our women. I probably would have been seriously injured after just a few minutes. They appear to be tough as nails. Go Duke!

ricks

DU82
12-22-2010, 04:23 PM
Another question is whether this non-call was consistent with other calls/non-calls over the course of the game. Any observations on this?

Jas had a remarkably similar block in the first half, the difference was that Harris trailed the play, grabbed the deflection and sank a shot. I wondered then, how the heck Jas got back and in position on that play.

B-well
12-23-2010, 11:37 PM
The Duke Women are stronger and better defenders than I have seen during over 100 games I have seen them play.

They looked awful on offense.

No excuses, but I wonder how we happened to schedule a top 5 team 4 days after exam break without an intevening game to get the rust out.

This was the kind of game we used to lose. Jas was not going to let that happen.

burnspbesq
12-25-2010, 01:01 PM
Technically, I believe it was a foul, but aren't those kind of calls usually made when there is some sort of other body contact during the block itself?

Even if there had been contact, if it was less than a tackle the chances of it being called are infinitesimally small. Officials try to let the players decide close games.

Two perfect examples of this phenomenon are the non-call of Matt Howard's illegal screen at the end of the 2010 championship game and the non-call when Ann Strother decked Jess Foley after the release of the game-winning three against UConn in 2004.

Arguably, Jaz made a poor decision by going for the block. Go for the block and don't get it, and there is at least an 80 percent chance that you lose. Put a 66 percent free throw shooter on the line, and your chance of losing in regulation is only about 45 percent.

AlaskanAssassin
12-25-2010, 01:21 PM
Even if there had been contact, if it was less than a tackle the chances of it being called are infinitesimally small. Officials try to let the players decide close games.

I agree and they should be more consistent with that too. Refs whistled a foul on UCLA to put KU on the free throw line that iced the game. It was more like a touch foul. The home game winning streak should have ended there.