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GODUKEGO
12-19-2010, 09:49 AM
These articles appeared in Sunday"s Raleigh News & Observer.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/12/19/870385/meetingofthe-twomasters.html


The coaches head to head:
http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/12/19/870232/k-and-dean-head-to-head.html

Picture gallery: Love picture #5, Coach K looks 24 years old and some great memories!

http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/12/19/870385/meetingofthe-twomasters.html?tab=gallery&gallery=/2010/12/18/870195/mike-krzyzewski-and-dean-smith.html&gid_index=1

Coaches who define excellence:

http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/12/19/870233/coaches-who-defined-excellence.html

moonpie23
12-19-2010, 10:36 AM
i don't care how much the media sugar coats it......this is burning bile in the guts of tarhole fans.......another "untouchable" apple on the unc basketball legacy tree falls.....


there will be fist fights over this...

magjayran
12-19-2010, 11:00 AM
Pic #15 is amazing.

They need to fix the caption for #32.

Atlanta Duke
12-19-2010, 11:46 AM
Dave Hanners thought it was strange when Mike Krzyzewski asked to talk to him in 2001....

He said, 'You guys were always so great to coach against, and I miss that now.' "

http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/12/19/870385/meetingofthe-twomasters.html

Given that the always gracious and classy Matt Doherty was coaching Carolina at the time, I bet K missed that:o

DukeFanSince1990
12-19-2010, 12:09 PM
Ha, the caption for picture 32 reads:

UNC point guard Raymond Felton drives to the basket against Duke's Tony Lang in action in the March 8, 1993 Duke-Carolina game in Chapel Hill.

I didn't realize Felton had such a long career! :D

davekay1971
12-19-2010, 02:14 PM
Have a fun look at the cesspool of IC, which has a thread on this. Their irrational hated of K clearly prohibits any of them from realizing that the Duke and UNC coaches and players, frequently, develop a genuine liking and respect for one another...as appears to be the case for K and Smith.

The best example of IC idioticy is one poster who suspects that K's 2001 call to Hanners was a backhanded slap at Roy, with K basically saying that beating Roy just wasn't a challenge.

A perfectly nice and paranoid way of looking at Hanner's anecdote except for the inconvenient truth that in 2001, Roy still didn't give a sh** about Carolina. Do these guys even know the history of their own program?

weezie
12-19-2010, 03:13 PM
i don't care how much the media sugar coats it......this is burning bile in the guts of tarhole fans.......another "untouchable" apple on the unc basketball legacy tree falls.....


there will be fist fights over this...

Oooooh goody! Burning bile, suweeet! lol, hope they choke on it.

turnandburn55
12-19-2010, 03:29 PM
Let me taste your tears, Tar Holes!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM&feature=related

OZZIE4DUKE
12-19-2010, 06:54 PM
Capt. Mojo posted this picture of Rudolph over at CTN. Somebody needs to do a Separated ar Birth with Dean Smith... because it sure looks like Deano to me!
1792

OldPhiKap
12-19-2010, 11:01 PM
I sort of feel bad for those who are not old enough to have a burning, seething, visceral hatred of Dean. You really missed something.

Hard to explain, but Roy's not even in the same ballpark.

davekay1971
12-20-2010, 09:09 AM
I sort of feel bad for those who are not old enough to have a burning, seething, visceral hatred of Dean. You really missed something.

Hard to explain, but Roy's not even in the same ballpark.

My best summation is that Dean was the High Priest of the Church of Self-Righteous Arrogant Tarheelism. He was the embodiment of the Tarheel fanbase aura. All those powder-blue wearing, fat, rich, wine sipping country-club self-satisfied Rams Club dorks are his disciples. And the rest of the Dean Dome crowd are the chanting, swaying lobotomized minions worshipping at the altar of Dean. Hopefully the whole lot of them will drink the Carolina-Blue kool-aid at midnight on the 29th and the world can be a better place.

I'm almost ashamed to admit that my passionate loathing for Dean, which peaked when Chris Webber called that ridiculous timeout to give Dean his second NCAA championship gift (after Brown gave him his first in 1982), has, over the last 14 years, faded to a persistent dislike mixed with (shudder) respect for his achievements as a coach.

OZZIE4DUKE
12-20-2010, 09:19 AM
I sort of feel bad for those who are not old enough to have a burning, seething, visceral hatred of Dean. You really missed something.

Hard to explain, but Roy's not even in the same ballpark.


My best summation is that Dean was the High Priest of the Church of Self-Righteous Arrogant Tarheelism. He was the embodiment of the Tarheel fanbase aura. All those powder-blue wearing, fat, rich, wine sipping country-club self-satisfied Rams Club dorks are his disciples. And the rest of the Dean Dome crowd are the chanting, swaying lobotomized minions worshipping at the altar of Dean. Hopefully the whole lot of them will drink the Carolina-Blue kool-aid at midnight on the 29th and the world can be a better place.

I'm almost ashamed to admit that my passionate loathing for Dean, which peaked when Chris Webber called that ridiculous timeout to give Dean his second NCAA championship gift (after Brown gave him his first in 1982), has, over the last 14 years, faded to a persistent dislike mixed with (shudder) respect for his achievements as a coach.
Yeah, but don't you both just love that picture of Deano that I posted!

OldPhiKap
12-20-2010, 09:21 AM
My best summation is that Dean was the High Priest of the Church of Self-Righteous Arrogant Tarheelism. He was the embodiment of the Tarheel fanbase aura. All those powder-blue wearing, fat, rich, wine sipping country-club self-satisfied Rams Club dorks are his disciples. And the rest of the Dean Dome crowd are the chanting, swaying lobotomized minions worshipping at the altar of Dean. Hopefully the whole lot of them will drink the Carolina-Blue kool-aid at midnight on the 29th and the world can be a better place.

I'm almost ashamed to admit that my passionate loathing for Dean, which peaked when Chris Webber called that ridiculous timeout to give Dean his second NCAA championship gift (after Brown gave him his first in 1982), has, over the last 14 years, faded to a persistent dislike mixed with (shudder) respect for his achievements as a coach.

Dave, that kind of nails it. Thanks.


Dean will always have his place in ACC lore. It's just second place.


Early congratulations, Coach Krzyzewski.

BD80
12-20-2010, 09:38 AM
... Dean will always have his place in acc lore. It's just second place. ...

bazinga!

Indoor66
12-20-2010, 12:24 PM
My best summation is that Dean was the High Priest of the Church of Self-Righteous Arrogant Tarheelism. He was the embodiment of the Tarheel fanbase aura. All those powder-blue wearing, fat, rich, wine sipping country-club self-satisfied Rams Club dorks are his disciples. And the rest of the Dean Dome crowd are the chanting, swaying lobotomized minions worshipping at the altar of Dean. Hopefully the whole lot of them will drink the Carolina-Blue kool-aid at midnight on the 29th and the world can be a better place.

I'm almost ashamed to admit that my passionate loathing for Dean, which peaked when Chris Webber called that ridiculous timeout to give Dean his second NCAA championship gift (after Brown gave him his first in 1982), has, over the last 14 years, faded to a persistent dislike mixed with (shudder) respect for his achievements as a coach.

Come on, what do you really think?

All I can say is that I watched Dean from beginning to end, had the opportunity to know him personally and can only completely agree with the quoted post. Dean was, in those years, a sanctimonious p_____erson who embodied all of the character traits of tarheel fans that we, here, all loath.

roywhite
12-20-2010, 12:39 PM
My best summation is that Dean was the High Priest of the Church of Self-Righteous Arrogant Tarheelism. He was the embodiment of the Tarheel fanbase aura. All those powder-blue wearing, fat, rich, wine sipping country-club self-satisfied Rams Club dorks are his disciples. And the rest of the Dean Dome crowd are the chanting, swaying lobotomized minions worshipping at the altar of Dean. Hopefully the whole lot of them will drink the Carolina-Blue kool-aid at midnight on the 29th and the world can be a better place.

I'm almost ashamed to admit that my passionate loathing for Dean, which peaked when Chris Webber called that ridiculous timeout to give Dean his second NCAA championship gift (after Brown gave him his first in 1982), has, over the last 14 years, faded to a persistent dislike mixed with (shudder) respect for his achievements as a coach.

Excellent, davekay.

Ole Roy even with all his eccentricities is just not in the same category as El Deano. It's as if your "favorite" villain from a TV series or play is replaced by another actor. The stand-in just doesn't live up to the original character.

boyce
12-20-2010, 12:56 PM
Capt. Mojo posted this picture of Rudolph over at CTN. Somebody needs to do a Separated ar Birth with Dean Smith... because it sure looks like Deano to me!
1792


I was wondering what the perfect pithy chant would be as Duke defeats Elon tonight. Then I saw Ozzie4Duke's post, and his sig, and realized there is only one perfect answer:


Go to Hell Carolina, Go to Hell.


There are others. But this is the must-do.

-Boyce

uh_no
12-20-2010, 06:44 PM
My best summation is that Dean was the High Priest of the Church of Self-Righteous Arrogant Tarheelism. He was the embodiment of the Tarheel fanbase aura. All those powder-blue wearing, fat, rich, wine sipping country-club self-satisfied Rams Club dorks are his disciples. And the rest of the Dean Dome crowd are the chanting, swaying lobotomized minions worshipping at the altar of Dean. Hopefully the whole lot of them will drink the Carolina-Blue kool-aid at midnight on the 29th and the world can be a better place.


My best summation is that k is the High Priest of the Church of Self-Righteous doukies. He is the embodiment of the douk fanbase aura. All those royal-blue wearing, fat, rich, wine sipping country-club self-satisfied iron douk dorks are his disciples. And the rest of the cameron crazies are the chanting, swaying lobotomized minions worshipping at the altar of K. Hopefully the whole lot of them will drink the douk-Blue kool-aid at midnight on the 29th and the world can be a better place.

I don't believe either of these characterizations are remotely close to representative of anything. (note the stupid 'profanity' filter prevented me from making the point by misspelling duke correctly)

davekay1971
12-20-2010, 06:51 PM
My best summation is that k is the High Priest of the Church of Self-Righteous doukies. He is the embodiment of the I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. fanbase aura. All those royal-blue wearing, fat, rich, wine sipping country-club self-satisfied iron I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. dorks are his disciples. And the rest of the cameron crazies are the chanting, swaying lobotomized minions worshipping at the altar of K. Hopefully the whole lot of them will drink the I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.-Blue kool-aid at midnight on the 29th and the world can be a better place.

I don't believe either of these characterizations are remotely close to representative of anything.

I agree completely. I'm not going to defend my opinion of Deano or the UNC fanbase as being objectively accurate. It's the opinion of a man deeply saturated in a love for Duke hoops and an equal and opposite loathing of UNC. I'm sure there's a bunch of Carolina fans out there who are otherwise reasonable human beings who would completely agree with the first paragraph of your post. Of course they would be real wankers for saying it, lol!

uh_no
12-20-2010, 07:10 PM
I agree completely. I'm not going to defend my opinion of Deano or the UNC fanbase as being objectively accurate. It's the opinion of a man deeply saturated in a love for Duke hoops and an equal and opposite loathing of UNC. I'm sure there's a bunch of Carolina fans out there who are otherwise reasonable human beings who would completely agree with the first paragraph of your post. Of course they would be real wankers for saying it, lol!

It bothers me just a little bit, I wasn't here so much when deano was around (and consider myself able to be very objective on things duke and unc pre 2005 or so (seeing as I hated duke before i matriculated)), from what i've read, he was as stand up of a coach as one could expect....he wasn't the sleaze of a calipari, nor the arrogant stubbornness of ol' roy. One of my best friends had a dad who was a graduate student at UNC in the late 80's, and he tells stories similar to ones you might hear a duke student tell about K

in my opinion, dean was a stand up guy, only matched by a few guys in college basketball history (K of course being 1 of them)

davekay1971
12-20-2010, 07:15 PM
It bothers me just a little bit, I wasn't here so much when deano was around (and consider myself able to be very objective on things duke and unc pre 2005 or so (seeing as I hated duke before i matriculated)), from what i've read, he was as stand up of a coach as one could expect....he wasn't the sleaze of a calipari, nor the arrogant stubbornness of ol' roy. One of my best friends had a dad who was a graduate student at UNC in the late 80's, and he tells stories similar to ones you might hear a duke student tell about K

in my opinion, dean was a stand up guy, only matched by a few guys in college basketball history (K of course being 1 of them)

I never met Dean Smith personally, so I won't judge his character. I know anecdotes about him from people who did know him personally (in professional relationships, not as friends), and both characterized him much as did Indoor66. Take that for what it's worth. That being said, his forward thinking on social issues and his willingness to stand up for his principles are well documented. He also happened to run one of the best basketball programs in the country for over 3 decades with the kind of consistent success and absolute integrity that we've enjoyed under Coach K at Duke.

Like I said in my first post, my utter loathing of Smith has given way to a grudging respect for what he accomplished, and I can admit that he was certainly a coach that supporters of UNC can and should be proud to call their own.

Of course, if questioned, I'll swear under oath that someone hijacked my account to write this entire post.

OldPhiKap
12-20-2010, 09:32 PM
I recognize that he was a very good coach.

I stand by my unfiltered dislike, distain, and contempt for him.

If that makes me a bad guy, so be it.

ES, DS, ES.

wilko
12-20-2010, 09:49 PM
I recognize that he was a very good coach.

Little doubt...


I stand by my unfiltered dislike, distain, and contempt for him. Cant say that I blame you, on principle alone.. them being them and us being, well not them.


If that makes me a bad guy, so be it.
Nah... not a bad guy at all. It would prolly be bad form if you said something like "Smith wont remember having his wins record tied in the am.."

Personally, on the cusp of our man passing their man, I'm much more magnanimous than I thought I'd be..... At this point to demean their guy, is to demean our guy. It belittles both.

So I can build up and stroke Dean more than I EVER would have thought to elicit the veiled and buried respect that every 'Hole MUST have for our man at this point (or they just look more foolish than normal)... No point in kicking dirt on Smith, but I'll gladly use it as ammo to spit in the eye of a 'Hole and tick em off..

OldPhiKap
12-20-2010, 10:30 PM
Personally, on the cusp of our man passing their man, I'm much more magnanimous than I thought I'd be.

True enough. There's nothing wrong with being the second-best coach in ACC history. 879 wins, 2 NC's. Could be worse.

I mean, he's no Bob Staak.

OZZIE4DUKE
12-21-2010, 12:19 AM
True enough. There's nothing wrong with being the second-best coach in ACC history. 879 wins, 2 NC's. Could be worse.

I mean, he's no Bob Staak.
Or, he's no Lefty, and Lefty was one of us!

uh_no
12-21-2010, 02:45 AM
I think Jim put it best:

"The duo were excellent recruiters and first-rate tacticians. But most of all they built and sustained great programs at great universities, while maintaining high ethical standards in recruiting, academics, player relations and anything else that really matters."

great article btw

BD80
12-21-2010, 10:15 AM
Collateral Damage?

One of Coach K's post-game comments about deano struck me as funny:

“We had to get better to survive. You had to become good or go into TV. And Dean has never been on TV. ..."

Ummmm. Who was coaching NCState around that time? What happened to him?

I don't really think that Coach K meant to slam Jimmy V, but ... I'll bet Jimmy is up there smiling about that comment as he celebrates his buddy Mike overtaking "the schnozz."

OldPhiKap
12-21-2010, 11:10 AM
Collateral Damage?

One of Coach K's post-game comments about deano struck me as funny:

“We had to get better to survive. You had to become good or go into TV. And Dean has never been on TV. ..."

Ummmm. Who was coaching NCState around that time? What happened to him?

I don't really think that Coach K meant to slam Jimmy V, but ... I'll bet Jimmy is up there smiling about that comment as he celebrates his buddy Mike overtaking "the schnozz."

Valvano's departure had nothing to do with on-the-court performance. He was a great motivator and innovator with the way he employed his junk D's.

It was the off-court things that caught up to him.

So I'm not sure it is inconsistent with what K said -- although I doubt he intended to slight Valvano, Cremins, Lefty, or the guy who owned Food Lion and also coached UVA. Dean was the head of the league for a long, long time before K came along.

JasonEvans
12-21-2010, 12:46 PM
I think you can sum up Duke/UNC fanbase feelings about Dean and K in a similar fashion...

For most fans, there is an irrational hatred/dislike of the rival's coaching demigod. The key to that phrase is the word "irrational" because if you look at it rationally, you are talking about two of true greats in the history of the game. Both were innovators (Dean moreso than K), master motivators (K moreso than Dean), and winners. Both tried to do things the classy way, with a deep care for the best interests of their players and a fierce adherence to the ethics of the game.

My bet is that they each have an abiding respect and admiration for the other...

...if only the fanbases could feel the same ;)

--Jason "all this said, at this point K has (or is about to) surpassed Dean in virtually every meaningful measure" Evans

snowdenscold
12-21-2010, 12:51 PM
--Jason "all this said, at this point K has (or is about to) surpassed Dean in virtually every meaningful measure" Evans

Wait, "popularizing" the Four Corners is not a meaningful measure?

killerleft
12-21-2010, 03:12 PM
My best summation is that k is the High Priest of the Church of Self-Righteous doukies. He is the embodiment of the douk fanbase aura. All those royal-blue wearing, fat, rich, wine sipping country-club self-satisfied iron douk dorks are his disciples. And the rest of the cameron crazies are the chanting, swaying lobotomized minions worshipping at the altar of K. Hopefully the whole lot of them will drink the douk-Blue kool-aid at midnight on the 29th and the world can be a better place.

I don't believe either of these characterizations are remotely close to representative of anything. (note the stupid 'profanity' filter prevented me from making the point by misspelling duke correctly)

Whew! I thought you meant a wooden peg driven into a wall to hold a nail or screw.:o Yep, looked that up.

4decadedukie
12-21-2010, 03:31 PM
My best summation is that Dean was the High Priest of the Church of Self-Righteous Arrogant Tarheelism. He was the embodiment of the Tarheel fanbase aura. All those powder-blue wearing, fat, rich, wine sipping country-club self-satisfied Rams Club dorks are his disciples. And the rest of the Dean Dome crowd are the chanting, swaying lobotomized minions worshipping at the altar of Dean. Hopefully the whole lot of them will drink the Carolina-Blue kool-aid at midnight on the 29th and the world can be a better place.

While I may find this to be marginally overstated, it is artfully written and I sincerely appreciate its eloquence.

DevilHorns
12-21-2010, 04:54 PM
I think you can sum up Duke/UNC fanbase feelings about Dean and K in a similar fashion...

For most fans, there is an irrational hatred/dislike of the rival's coaching demigod. The key to that phrase is the word "irrational" because if you look at it rationally, you are talking about two of true greats in the history of the game. Both were innovators (Dean moreso than K), master motivators (K moreso than Dean), and winners. Both tried to do things the classy way, with a deep care for the best interests of their players and a fierce adherence to the ethics of the game.

My bet is that they each have an abiding respect and admiration for the other...

...if only the fanbases could feel the same ;)

--Jason "all this said, at this point K has (or is about to) surpassed Dean in virtually every meaningful measure" Evans

I understand the gist of your post and I agree completely. Both were excellent coaches. Dean set the mark for excellence in the ACC over the past 30 years (as reiterated by Coach K during yesterday's post-game). However, I don't think Dean was any more of an ''innovator'' than any other excellent coach. I think this is one of the great UNC fallacies that has rubbed off into college basketball popular culture. How was Dean more of an ''innovator'' than K exactly? 4 corners? John McClendon developed the system years before. Pointing to the passer after an assist? Hardly an innovation. Multiple changing defenses? Perfected it, yes, but was used by lists of coaches before. Secondary fastbreak? Dean again made use of it, but did not invent it. The fist to signal a player was tired? Stretching what defines innovation once more.

Dean was an excellent coach, yes. Excellent innovator? I fail to see it.

hudlow
12-21-2010, 05:08 PM
When Coach K passes Bobby Knight - that's gonna be pretty sweet too.

I have a grudging respect for Deano. But he's a damned Tar Heel.

I can't say that for Bobby Knight even though he is K's mentor.

hud

kong123
12-21-2010, 05:12 PM
Excellent, davekay.

Ole Roy even with all his eccentricities is just not in the same category as El Deano. It's as if your "favorite" villain from a TV series or play is replaced by another actor. The stand-in just doesn't live up to the original character.

I actually think everyone's negative comments about Dean are pitiful. I understand what side of the fence you guys are on, but have a little perspective and show a little class. I will not deny that UNC fans are guilty of bashing K, but I do not do it. I certainly realize how great a coach he is and you must realize how great a coach Dean was. Commenting on Dean now, saying negative this and negative that isn't only disrespectful to Dean himself, but also disrespectful for the rivalry. Without Dean, this rivalry wouldn't be what it is today. Sure, you can pick out little things here and there to try and bring someone down, but saying these things about one of the best coaches ever is pretty sad. The DBR is better than this.

Congratulations to Coach K on reaching an impressive milestone.

OldPhiKap
12-21-2010, 05:22 PM
I actually think everyone's negative comments about Dean are pitiful. I understand what side of the fence you guys are on, but have a little perspective and show a little class. I will not deny that UNC fans are guilty of bashing K, but I do not do it. I certainly realize how great a coach he is and you must realize how great a coach Dean was. Commenting on Dean now, saying negative this and negative that isn't only disrespectful to Dean himself, but also disrespectful for the rivalry. Without Dean, this rivalry wouldn't be what it is today. Sure, you can pick out little things here and there to try and bring someone down, but saying these things about one of the best coaches ever is pretty sad. The DBR is better than this.

Congratulations to Coach K on reaching an impressive milestone.

You can respect someone's abilities and accomplishments, yet dislike them intensely.

That does not "disrespect the rivalry" to my mind -- it helps to shape and explain it.


And, the feelings towards K as expressed on IC (and other Carolina outlets) are far worse than what is being said about Dean here. Hard to take an admonishment about "keeping it classy" when I read your brethren callling K a rodent, or saying he faked a back injury to take time off in a rough season. Year after year after year. But K doesn't have the class that Dean had, I suppose, and we aren't blessed to be raised in The Carolina Way . . . .

kong123
12-21-2010, 05:30 PM
You can respect someone's abilities and accomplishments, yet dislike them intensely.

That does not "disrespect the rivalry" to my mind -- it helps to shape and explain it.


And, the feelings towards K as expressed on IC (and other Carolina outlets) are far worse than what is being said about Dean here. Hard to take an admonishment about "keeping it classy" when I read your brethren callling K a rodent, or saying he faked a back injury to take time off in a rough season. Year after year after year. But K doesn't have the class that Dean had, I suppose, and we aren't blessed to be raised in The Carolina Way . . . .

Do you think comparing the DBR to the IC is fair? I don't. I think the IC is the bottom of the barrel and the DBR is nice and pleasant place to discuss basketball. Lately though, with your success and our failures, you guys are quite full of yourselves. Reminds me of UNC a few years ago.

moonpie23
12-21-2010, 05:31 PM
I actually think everyone's negative comments about Dean are pitiful. I understand what side of the fence you guys are on, but have a little perspective and show a little class. I will not deny that UNC fans are guilty of bashing K, but I do not do it. I certainly realize how great a coach he is and you must realize how great a coach Dean was. Commenting on Dean now, saying negative this and negative that isn't only disrespectful to Dean himself, but also disrespectful for the rivalry. Without Dean, this rivalry wouldn't be what it is today. Sure, you can pick out little things here and there to try and bring someone down, but saying these things about one of the best coaches ever is pretty sad. The DBR is better than this.

Congratulations to Coach K on reaching an impressive milestone.

well put konga........i have a tremendous respect for coach smith and i even met him once.....it's a humorous story about meeting him in the men's restroom during the Jimmy V celebrity dinner......we randomly wound up side by side during men's room business. When i realized who i was standing beside, i calmly remarked "this is not how i envisioned our first meeting coach smith, but it's an honor to meet you"......and then i had to say "let's wash up first" when he offered his hand for an introductory handshake...(which he laughed hardily at)


saying negative things about dean at this point is disrespectful.......dukies are proud that K has passed one of the greatest coaches of all time.....tarholes don't like it, so they're layering an extra slab of hate bacon on the frying pan....

OldPhiKap
12-21-2010, 05:44 PM
Do you think comparing the DBR to the IC is fair? I don't. I think the IC is the bottom of the barrel and the DBR is nice and pleasant place to discuss basketball.

I think they both reflect the respective school's fan base. And no, I don't think IC shines by the comparison.


Lately though, with your success and our failures, you guys are quite full of yourselves. Reminds me of UNC a few years ago.

True. And the pendulum will swing again and again and again. Otherwise it's not a rivalry. I can tell when Duke's on top, because Carolina fans start counting the Helms Trophy in their National Championship count. I can tell when Carolina is on top because we start picking arbitrary dates to say that "we are better since 19##."

I think you and I mutually respect the opponent. Where we differ, I think, is that I don't like Dean and do not see a problem stating that on a thread that compares the two. I am sure there is a mirror thread at any Carolina site, with the opposing view.

Reasonable minds can, of course, differ.

BD80
12-21-2010, 09:25 PM
...
--Jason "all this said, at this point K has (or is about to) surpassed Dean in virtually every meaningful measure" Evans

deano's still got him by a nose


hmmm, maybe the size of one's proboscis is not "meaningful," never mind.

superdave
12-22-2010, 01:37 PM
I actually think everyone's negative comments about Dean are pitiful. I understand what side of the fence you guys are on, but have a little perspective and show a little class. I will not deny that UNC fans are guilty of bashing K, but I do not do it. I certainly realize how great a coach he is and you must realize how great a coach Dean was. Commenting on Dean now, saying negative this and negative that isn't only disrespectful to Dean himself, but also disrespectful for the rivalry. Without Dean, this rivalry wouldn't be what it is today. Sure, you can pick out little things here and there to try and bring someone down, but saying these things about one of the best coaches ever is pretty sad. The DBR is better than this.

Congratulations to Coach K on reaching an impressive milestone.

If I ever have to be lectured by another Tarhole fan about how Dean Smith knows where each and every player who came through his program is right now, at this very moment and Coach K hates half his guys, then I'll puke on them like a demon is coming out of me. I met Dean Smith once and he was very kind, but the insufferable fanbase skews any perspective I have of the guy in an extremely negative direction. I dont think all the Unc journo-grads who dominate the local media outlets in NC help either. I just dont think it's possible for a partisan fan of either school to say more than 1 polite sentence in a row about the other's coach.

Super "My hate would get me kicked out of the Jedi" Dave

cspan37421
12-22-2010, 01:59 PM
I met Dean Smith once and he was very kind, but the insufferable fanbase skews any perspective I have of the guy in an extremely negative direction.
Super "My hate would get me kicked out of the Jedi" Dave

Methinks you should rise above that and separate the man from his fanbase. Why is that so hard?

This "new Dean of North Carolina" stuff may be clever wordplay but it's misplaced. Coach K isn't succeeding anyone to such a mantle; it's a bit like looking for the "new Coach K."

K has blazed his own path and his success speaks for itself. Moreover, K's success would not be so great if he didn't have to climb such a mountain of accomplishment that Dean Smith left behind (and apparently done the RIGHT way, as K has).

I agree with earlier posters - the rivalry isn't what it is without a worthy adversary at the other end of 15-501. It's great fun when Carolina has a down year. If they were down for good, we'd need a new rival, and no one would care about the Duke-UNC game. For me, I'd rather the game mean something.

davekay1971
12-23-2010, 02:33 PM
Interesting timing on this. Joe Posnanski has an SI.com article up on the 32 worst defeats in sports history. Item number 22 on the list is "The Dean Smith Championships", lumping together the strange endings of the 1982 and 1993 championships. In no way am I (nor is Posnanski, I think) trying to detract from Smith's championships...but the Brown and Webber mistakes were always an odd similarity between the two NCAA championships he won.

Here's the link to the article: http://joeposnanski.si.com/2010/12/23/the-agony-of-defeat/?eref=sihp

Thank goodness our 1998 Elite Eight collapse against Kentucky and the 2004 Final Four game against UConn didn't make the list. Ugh...hate to remember those!

jimsumner
12-23-2010, 04:03 PM
Interesting timing on this. Joe Posnanski has an SI.com article up on the 32 worst defeats in sports history. Item number 22 on the list is "The Dean Smith Championships", lumping together the strange endings of the 1982 and 1993 championships. In no way am I (nor is Posnanski, I think) trying to detract from Smith's championships...but the Brown and Webber mistakes were always an odd similarity between the two NCAA championships he won.

Here's the link to the article: http://joeposnanski.si.com/2010/12/23/the-agony-of-defeat/?eref=sihp

Thank goodness our 1998 Elite Eight collapse against Kentucky and the 2004 Final Four game against UConn didn't make the list. Ugh...hate to remember those!

I've always thought these were very different kinds of mistakes. Brown throwing the ball to Worthy was just an epic mistake, a gift.

But Webber was a different story entirely. Carolina called timeout in order to give one simple instruction. Do not let Jalen Rose touch the ball.

Webber rebounds a missed FT. He looks to Rose. Can't get it to him. Travels. Refs miss the travel call, which actually ends up hurting Michigan. Webber dribbles up court, trying to get the ball to Rose. But Rose is blanketed.

So, Webber panics. He dribbles over to the sideline and stops his dribble. He's double-teamed on the sideline, with no dribble, no options, no hope. So, he calls a timeout he doesn't have. But if he doesn't call that timeout, he's almost certainly going to turn it over.

Did Webber screw-up? Absolutely. But he screwed up in large part because Carolina executed its defensive scheme so well that he was forced into that mistake. Carolina deserves a lot of credit for forcing him into a position he clearly did not want to be in and wasn't prepared for.

Duke did the same thing at the end of the '91 Vegas game, when they denied the ball to Anderson Hunt and Larry Johnson didn't know what to do with the ball 30 feet from the basket.

PADukeMom
12-23-2010, 04:38 PM
I can't honestly say I disliked Dean Smith unless we were playing Carolina. I don't put him in the same category as I do Steve Spurrier, Nick Saban or Cal.

davekay1971
12-23-2010, 04:53 PM
Did Webber screw-up? Absolutely. But he screwed up in large part because Carolina executed its defensive scheme so well that he was forced into that mistake. Carolina deserves a lot of credit for forcing him into a position he clearly did not want to be in and wasn't prepared for. .

Excellent point, Jim. It was great end-game coaching by Smith, to cap off a season that was probably one of the greatest coaching jobs of his career. Smith had much more talented teams than the '93 team, but it was to his credit that he coached that team to the national championship.

Like I said in my initial post, the endings of the '82 and '93 championship games are tied together by the similarity of opposing players making a crucial mistake. As you pointed out, of course, they were different situations. And, of course, I don't take anything away from Smith's accomplishments in coaching his teams to the championships.

roywhite
12-23-2010, 05:09 PM
I can't honestly say I disliked Dean Smith unless we were playing Carolina. I don't put him in the same category as I do Steve Spurrier, Nick Saban or Cal.

Yikes...hate to see The Old Ball Coach on that sort of list.

He did a heckuva job at Duke, initially as an offensive coordinator, and then Head Coach, where he finished with a winning overall record and won an ACC Championship. I know some people in the Duke athletic offices, and they loved the guy. He has even stayed in touch with some people at Duke, and still has a warm spot for the school.

Did you have a particular gripe with Spurrier, or didn't like his style?

Orange&BlackSheep
12-23-2010, 05:13 PM
I can't honestly say I disliked Dean Smith unless we were playing Carolina. I don't put him in the same category as I do Steve Spurrier, Nick Saban or Cal.

Hate Steve Spurrier?? The man who single-handedly gave Duke football fans their only moments of joy in the last 25 years? I literally do not understand hating him. I understand he is a bit arrogant sounding, but he is just so honest and straight-forward about it that I personally find it endearing.

I for one love the guy.

Acymetric
12-23-2010, 05:45 PM
I can't honestly say I disliked Dean Smith unless we were playing Carolina. I don't put him in the same category as I do Steve Spurrier, Nick Saban or Cal.

Like a few others, I don't really see how you can put Spurrier on a list with Saban or Cal...and really not sure Saban deserves to be on a list with Cal either.

And a guy (or girl!) doesn't have to be in the same category as Cal for me to dislike them...if Cal was the threshold for disliking someone I'd end up liking everybody except him and a small handful of other people, which certainly isn't the case.

I respect the hell out of Dean, and also wish there was a way for me to wind back the clock and reverse the outcome of every single win over the course of his career. Because he coached at Carolina, and because he was good at it. If I'm not supposed to feel that way about a rival I guess I should just quit following sports, because that isn't the sports culture I grew up in.

LSanders
12-24-2010, 02:57 AM
I can't honestly say I disliked Dean Smith unless we were playing Carolina. I don't put him in the same category as I do Steve Spurrier, Nick Saban or Cal.


I've read that Spurrier annually votes for Duke to be in the Top 25 in The ESPN poll, regardless of our record as a small way of saying, "Thanks," for his first head coaching job.

How can you hate that?

JasonEvans
12-24-2010, 10:19 AM
I've read that Spurrier annually votes for Duke to be in the Top 25 in The ESPN poll, regardless of our record as a small way of saying, "Thanks," for his first head coaching job.

How can you hate that?

He did this for years but stopped a couple years ago under pressure from the Football Coaches Association (or something like that). They told him it was cheapening his ballot and the system and he was asked to only vote for a team if he honestly thought that team was among the Top 25 in the country.

--Jason "Still, gotta love Spurrier as he is a Duke guy, through and through" Evans

cspan37421
12-24-2010, 10:50 AM
FWIW John Feinstein said on the Tony Kornheiser show yesterday that Coach K told him he "loves Dean Smith."

You will recall how close he got to Jim Valvano near the end of Jimmy V's life.

My read on this is fairly simple, based on many years of casual observation. Coach K keeps whatever scheduling distance he can from coaches whom he considers friends or who are in his "coaching tree." I've heard him say he did not want to play his former players - such as when Quin was at Missouri and they happened to meet in the tournament. He doesn't tend to schedule them. He does not want to play Boeheim, though I concede scheduling MSU and Izzo is an exception (well, maybe he didn't have much to do with that - it was that Big 10 challenge etc; but now there's that "legends" round-robin thing).

Coach K is NOT close (from what I can tell) to those against whom he regularly competes. As TK would say, he wants to beat their brains out (on the court, of course). It's hard to be good friends with someone whom you're planning and working hard to destroy. Once that is over, though, once someone has retired or is in another conference, it's a bit easier to be friendly. As we know, Dean's health is in decline, and like Jimmy V, I think K recognizes that the competitive years are in the past, and he can more easily show kindness and admiration now than when they were rivals. When faced with mortality, of course he's going to let bygones be bygones and show the depth of his humanity and decency.

JF also quoted K from many years ago as saying, "If I ever act like Dean Smith, don't ask questions, get a gun and shoot me." But time has a way of changing people, and from the perspective of 30 years at Duke and several more overall in coaching, he may see things from a different perspective now. I think his sideline style is much different. He does not ride the refs much at all anymore, contrary to what some might say. He's far calmer, almost stoic, though he will show some fire when needed for the team. He's not the scrappy underdog anymore. He is the established legend who is trying to keep others from knocking him off as king of the mountain.

All that said, I do like the fact that our NC wins did not depend in any way on a last minute mistake by the opponent - they have been what, 7 pts, 20 pts, 10 pts, and even the last one of 2 pts was won without the opponent making an end-of-game gaffe. So yeah, of course I think our guy is better. But that doesn't make Dean a bad guy, and like I said, I think we have benefited from having such a worthy nemesis (pun unintended).

BD80
12-24-2010, 11:28 AM
... I think [K's] sideline style is much different [now]. He does not ride the refs much at all anymore, contrary to what some might say. He's far calmer, almost stoic, though he will show some fire when needed for the team. He's not the scrappy underdog anymore. He is the established legend who is trying to keep others from knocking him off as king of the mountain. ...

Wow. I thought I viewed life through Duke blue lenses.

Maybe we can say he doesn't ride the refs AS much, but he still works the refs constantly throughout a game.

jimsumner
12-24-2010, 12:16 PM
When Krzyzewski came into the ACC, Dean Smith was the veteran top-dog and K, Valvano and Cremins were the young gun-slingers trying to upseat the king.

Gradually, K realized that he had become the veteran top dog, fending off the young- guns. That gave him a greater and different appreciation of what Smith went through, what he accomplished and how he accomplished it.

The opposite is also true. Smith had a genius for outlasting the competition. Smith and Vic Bubas are about the same age but Bubas retired from coaching after the 1969 season, while Smith lasted until 1997. Norm Sloan, Bill Foster, Lefty Driesell, Terry Holland, Jim Valvano and Bobby Cremins all successfully challenged Smith but none could sustain the challenge and all eventually wearied of the struggle.

Except Krzyzewski. He embraced the challenge in a way that none of his peers did. Smith came to realize that Krzyzewski was a different breed and respect ensued.

So, both came to see a little of themselves in each other and that enhanced their relationship.

hurleyfor3
12-24-2010, 12:26 PM
Like I said in my initial post, the endings of the '82 and '93 championship games are tied together by the similarity of opposing players making a crucial mistake. As you pointed out, of course, they were different situations. And, of course, I don't take anything away from Smith's accomplishments in coaching his teams to the championships.

Also, unc had the lead when both gaffes occurred. IOW, they were in a position to win both games anyway.

(Similarly, weren't we up by 6 when Lonnie Baxter got called for his fifth foul?)

cspan37421
12-24-2010, 05:14 PM
Wow. I thought I viewed life through Duke blue lenses.

Maybe we can say he doesn't ride the refs AS much, but he still works the refs constantly throughout a game.

Compared to what I'm used to seeing, it doesn't seem to me that he brings up much; when he does, and the broadcaster shows a replay, his complaints usually have merit. He has credibility with the refs and does not waste it.

Of course, I'm at the mercy of what the TV guys decide to show. So maybe if I could see him unedited, I'd get a different sense of it. Also, I think you might work the refs harder when you're losing, and we haven't done much of that lately - we've had a very strong run the last dozen or so years.

Devil in the Blue Dress
12-24-2010, 06:06 PM
He did this for years but stopped a couple years ago under pressure from the Football Coaches Association (or something like that). They told him it was cheapening his ballot and the system and he was asked to only vote for a team if he honestly thought that team was among the Top 25 in the country.

--Jason "Still, gotta love Spurrier as he is a Duke guy, through and through" Evans
My memory may not be accurate, but it seems to me that Coach Spurrier stopped this practice about the time Coach Cutcliffe arrived.

aheel4ever
12-24-2010, 06:11 PM
I think they both reflect the respective school's fan base. And no, I don't think IC shines by the comparison.



True. And the pendulum will swing again and again and again. Otherwise it's not a rivalry. I can tell when Duke's on top, because Carolina fans start counting the Helms Trophy in their National Championship count. I can tell when Carolina is on top because we start picking arbitrary dates to say that "we are better since 19##."

I think you and I mutually respect the opponent. Where we differ, I think, is that I don't like Dean and do not see a problem stating that on a thread that compares the two. I am sure there is a mirror thread at any Carolina site, with the opposing view.

Reasonable minds can, of course, differ.

It's a shame, but this site's message board looks more and more like IC every time I come here.

Duvall
12-24-2010, 06:57 PM
It's a shame, but this site's message board looks more and more like IC every time I come here.

If this were IC, this thread would include a half-dozen inane conspiracy theories about the imaginary evil deeds of our rival coach. At DBR, we still have the decency to simply dislike people without making up excuses for it.

uh_no
12-24-2010, 09:52 PM
Compared to what I'm used to seeing, it doesn't seem to me that he brings up much; when he does, and the broadcaster shows a replay, his complaints usually have merit. He has credibility with the refs and does not waste it.

Of course, I'm at the mercy of what the TV guys decide to show. So maybe if I could see him unedited, I'd get a different sense of it. Also, I think you might work the refs harder when you're losing, and we haven't done much of that lately - we've had a very strong run the last dozen or so years.

I forget which game this was....perhaps the MSU game

in the second half K calls a time out:

Ref: "what do you want, 30 or 60?"
K: "I want a (explitive) call"

yes this is paraphrased....maybe K doesn't 'ride' the refs as hard as he might have, but he certainly 'works' them as hard as any guy in basketball....and part of that is he now is the best coach in the game and that allows him to be more subtle with the refs

-bdbd
12-24-2010, 10:50 PM
It's a shame, but this site's message board looks more and more like IC every time I come here.

Oh, my. Now that's just plain nasty!!



(And not the least bit accurate...)


:rolleyes:

calvindog
12-24-2010, 11:17 PM
Dean was obviously a great coach but only winning two NCs with the talent he had is almost hard to believe. Great coach but it can never be argued he was the greatest; not even close. K has completely obliterated Dean's accomplishments on the court and still has another 150+ wins in him.

jdj4duke
12-25-2010, 11:18 AM
It's a shame, but this site's message board looks more and more like IC every time I come here.

You apparently have not spent much time on IC.

Devilsfan
12-25-2010, 11:46 AM
I wouldn't trade Coach Mike for three Deans. Enough of the PC BS our Coach leads by far in the Class Department when coaching. Many don't remember the vocal outbursts against opposing players and the like while Dean was on the bench. Do I feel sorry for him now with his metal capabilities diminishing, of course.

cspan37421
12-25-2010, 01:38 PM
I wouldn't trade Coach Mike for three Deans. Enough of the PC BS


You are implying that some of us are saying what we are saying because of concerns that we will appear "politically correct", rather the possibility that we mean precisely what we say, that we have earnest convictions.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I don't care to have my views thus characterized. How about showing a little more of the "Class Department" yourself in your dialogue with fellow Devils fans? Thanks.

OldPhiKap
12-26-2010, 10:40 AM
My memory may not be accurate, but it seems to me that Coach Spurrier stopped this practice about the time Coach Cutcliffe arrived.

DiBD, the timing may be about right but I do not think that was the reason. There was some national press about Steve's practice, and I think he was pressured to stop.

devildeac
12-26-2010, 10:46 AM
DiBD, the timing may be about right but I do not think that was the reason. There was some national press about Steve's practice, and I think he was pressured to stop.

This is my recollection also.

Faison1
12-26-2010, 10:49 AM
I wouldn't trade Coach Mike for three Deans. Enough of the PC BS our Coach leads by far in the Class Department when coaching. Many don't remember the vocal outbursts against opposing players and the like while Dean was on the bench. Do I feel sorry for him now with his metal capabilities diminishing, of course.

Trying to say one is better than the other is just foolish, if you ask me. If we base it on Natty Championship count, yes, K is ahead, but only because of a few lucky (good and bad) breaks for both K and Dean.

I am the biggest K fan there is, but coaches like Dean (and K) are the elite, where just a few programs in the history of the game are lucky enough to have witnessed and experienced their success and leadership.

I, for one, will always hold K and Dean as equals, rather than trying to convince anyone that either was better than the other.

DevilHorns
12-26-2010, 11:00 AM
Trying to say one is better than the other is just foolish, if you ask me. If we base it on Natty Championship count, yes, K is ahead, but only because of a few lucky (good and bad) breaks for both K and Dean.

I am the biggest K fan there is, but coaches like Dean (and K) are the elite, where just a few programs in the history of the game are lucky enough to have witnessed and experienced their success and leadership.

I, for one, will always hold K and Dean as equals, rather than trying to convince anyone that either was better than the other.

Interesting take. For me, it's clear they aren't ''equals'' when it comes to coaching. Dean had a mammoth amount of talent over his 30+ years at UNC. Having only 2 championships to his name is under-performing given that level of talent. They are both elite coaches. One is more elite than the other, and it's not even close at this point.

Best of all time is K vs Wooden. Only UNC fans add Smith to that debate.

BattierBattalion
12-26-2010, 11:22 AM
I honestly don't see how anyone can objectively consider Dean to even be on the same level as K. Arguing that Dean inspired K's greatness is a silly point. K provided his own agency to accomplish what he did. Also, if we're going to talk about coaches that inspire K, what about Bobby Knight? It's safe to say that Bobby Knight had a far bigger impact on K's career than Dean did. No matter how you look at it (numbers, eye test, versatility), K is simply better.

Dean is a top 10 college basketball coach of all time, but K is a top 2.

Faison1
12-26-2010, 11:38 AM
Interesting take. For me, it's clear they aren't ''equals'' when it comes to coaching. Dean had a mammoth amount of talent over his 30+ years at UNC. Having only 2 championships to his name is under-performing given that level of talent. They are both elite coaches. One is more elite than the other, and it's not even close at this point.

Best of all time is K vs Wooden. Only UNC fans add Smith to that debate.

Believe me, I think K is one of the best. But, when you look at the Pantheon of great coaches, it is hard for me to say it all comes down to K and Wooden. I'm sure we (along with BattierBattalion) could get into a weeks long debate about our arguments, but I would start by asking you this:

If Duke had been bounced in the Sweet 16 last year, would you still feel as strongly about K vs. Dean as you do right now?

Devil in the Blue Dress
12-26-2010, 11:42 AM
DiBD, the timing may be about right but I do not think that was the reason. There was some national press about Steve's practice, and I think he was pressured to stop.
I wasn't suggesting a cause and effect, but rather a timely coincidence.

OldPhiKap
12-26-2010, 12:30 PM
I wasn't suggesting a cause and effect, but rather a timely coincidence.

I know I can't out-info you in pigskin!

Merry Christmas, hope the snow is deep enough to enjoy and scattered enough to deal with. -- OPK

DevilHorns
12-26-2010, 12:40 PM
If Duke had been bounced in the Sweet 16 last year, would you still feel as strongly about K vs. Dean as you do right now?

That is an excellent question.

Dean Smith resume:

Gold Medal Men's Basketball (1976 Summer Olympics)
2 NCAA Championships
(1982, 1993)
11 Regional Championships - Final Four (1967, 1968, 1969, 1972, 1977, 1981, 1982, 1991, 1993, 1995, 1997)
13 ACC Tournament Championships
(1967, 1968, 1969, 1972, 1975, 1977, 1979, 1981, 1982, 1989, 1991, 1994, 1997)


Coach K resume:

Gold medal – Men's Basketball (2008 Summer Olympics)
Gold medal – FIBA World Championship (2010)
4 NCAA Tournament Championships (1991, 1992, 2001, 2010)
11 Regional Championships – Final Four (1986, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1994, 1999, 2001, 2004, 2010)
12 ACC Tournament Championships (1986, 1988, 1992, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2009, 2010)


K has had 6 less years in the ACC than Smith and has only 1 less ACC title. If we take away last year's NCAA title, he is still on a better pace in terms of ACC titles while still having more NCAA titles at 3-2. At 3-2 titles I think there's more of a debate and numbers can be presented in certain ways to make an argument for either side (Dean has a better win% than K overall, though K started at Army and K has a better win% at Duke than Dean had at UNC; Dean has more wins head-to-head, but then again most of those were padded in K's early days at Duke, and besides, Bubas is better head-to-head than Dean, does that make Bubas better than Dean?, K has a better record in Final four games and in championship games where the competition is hardest, and the best NCAA tourney win%, Dean was an 'innovator'... etc).

In the end, our reality is 4 championships with last year's coaching performance as arguably one of the best of all time in the sport. I don't think Dean could have taken a team like we had last year to a championship. That is my opinion looking at his body of work as a coach during the post-season. Great question though, the numbers are very close if we think in terms of 3 vs 2 championships instead of 4 vs 2.

OldPhiKap
12-26-2010, 01:00 PM
The book on Dean is closed.

The book on Krzyzewski is still being writ, in letters large and bold.


While the matter can be subject to some legitimate debate at this point, by the time all is said and done I don't think the comparison will be that close. It's hard to picture us not in the hunt for a few more numbers to add to K's list over the next few years, at least.

Brian913
12-26-2010, 01:48 PM
If Duke had been bounced in the Sweet 16 last year, would you still feel as strongly about K vs. Dean as you do right now?

That is a nonsensical question.

Devil in the Blue Dress
12-26-2010, 02:08 PM
I know I can't out-info you in pigskin!

Merry Christmas, hope the snow is deep enough to enjoy and scattered enough to deal with. -- OPK
Thank you! Merry Christmas and Happy Solstice to you and your family. We've got enough snow to qualify as a serious snowfall around this part of the world. Having it fall on Christmas Day is the really special part.

Too bad I'm so far away from the football team at the moment. A couple of linemen could have cleared that driveway for me in no time!

superdave
12-26-2010, 02:18 PM
If Duke had been bounced in the Sweet 16 last year, would you still feel as strongly about K vs. Dean as you do right now?

If Chris Webber had not called that time out....would anyone care about Dean?
If Fred Brown had not thrown the ball to James Worthy....would anyone care about Dean?

I dont think what if is a good game to play when comparing the two. We have enough indisputable facts to compare them.

Super "Or we could do the what if thing and go ahead and give K titles in '86, '94, '99 and '04" Dave

77devil
12-26-2010, 02:20 PM
DiBD, the timing may be about right but I do not think that was the reason. There was some national press about Steve's practice, and I think he was pressured to stop.

This is correct. 2007 was the last year he voted for Duke incidentally.

"The University of South Carolina head coach said Grant Teaff, executive director of the American Football Coaches Association, asked him not to put Duke in the poll."

"He just said I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't vote for Duke to keep the integrity of the poll alive," Spurrier said. "So I went with him."

hurleyfor3
12-26-2010, 02:31 PM
I don't think Dean could have taken a team like we had last year to a championship.

Actually, he did, in 1993.

Faison1
12-26-2010, 02:42 PM
That is a nonsensical question.

What's that supposed to mean? Let me get this straight: I enter into a debate with someone, pose a question, and you respond by accusing me of being absurd?

You're nonsensical.

If you want to argue, perhaps back it up with more than a pointless 5 word statement.

superdave
12-26-2010, 02:43 PM
Actually, he did, in 1993.

Barkley used to say that George Lynch was the best Unc player in the pros since Jordan came out. Lynch was a Battier type for those who dont remember him. But Barkley's compliment placed Lynch in league with Daughtery, Kenny the Jet, Rasheed and Stackhouse, which is nice praise for Lynch, but also emblematic of that 1993 team.

DevilHorns
12-26-2010, 02:43 PM
Actually, he did, in 1993.

With a team that was in the Final Four just 2 years prior. Our core of players that won last year hadn't sniffed a Final Four prior to our run.

hurleyfor3
12-26-2010, 02:50 PM
With a team that was in the Final Four just 2 years prior. Our core of players that won last year hadn't sniffed a Final Four prior to our run.

Completely different teams. The unc '91 final four team was mostly seniors (and Hubert Davis was a junior). Few of that year's freshmen saw a whole lot of PT except for Montross, and even he didn't get a whole lot. Yes, I remember the Blue Team; they weren't the reason unc won or lost any game that year. The only real link between '91 and '93 was George Lynch.

When I claim '93 unc and 2010 Duke had a lot in common -- and they do -- I mean that as a compliment. To both Dean and K.

DevilHorns
12-26-2010, 03:00 PM
Completely different teams. The unc '91 final four team was mostly seniors (and Hubert Davis was a junior). Few of that year's freshmen saw a whole lot of PT except for Montross, and even he didn't get a whole lot. Yes, I remember the Blue Team; they weren't the reason unc won or lost any game that year. The only real link between '91 and '93 was George Lynch.

When I claim '93 unc and 2010 Duke had a lot in common -- and they do -- I mean that as a compliment. To both Dean and K.

I'm interested in reading in what ways you think they have a lot in common. I thought you were trying to make an argument that they were similar in regards to lack of success in the tourney prior to the title run. Both teams did have strong senior leadership, I definitely see that link.

Faison1
12-26-2010, 03:01 PM
If Chris Webber had not called that time out....would anyone care about Dean?
If Fred Brown had not thrown the ball to James Worthy....would anyone care about Dean?

I dont think what if is a good game to play when comparing the two. We have enough indisputable facts to compare them.

Super "Or we could do the what if thing and go ahead and give K titles in '86, '94, '99 and '04" Dave

What do you mean, "care about Dean"? Didn't UNC have the lead when Webber called the timeout? From what I've read, Dean specifically told UNC to guard Jalen Rose so Webber couldn't pass it to him, therefore causing Chris to panic....that's pretty smart if you ask me.

Look, I think K is one of the best of all time. The point of my argument was to dispute any feelings that K is vastly superior to Dean, much like the sentiment DevilsFan expressed.

Even though K and Dean overlapped by 14 years, they operated in very different environments. So, apt comparisons are difficult.

As I mentioned in my first argument, a couple of small twists of fate seperate Dean and K...that's all. If I had to pick between the two, of course I would pick K, but it wouldn't be a slamdunk decision. Dean is one of the best of all time.

Frankly, I can't believe I'm backing the guy so strongly, considering how many years I truly hated him. But I've grown and matured, so here I am now.

Acymetric
12-26-2010, 03:16 PM
What do you mean, "care about Dean"? Didn't UNC have the lead when Webber called the timeout? From what I've read, Dean specifically told UNC to guard Jalen Rose so Webber couldn't pass it to him, therefore causing Chris to panic....that's pretty smart if you ask me.

Look, I think K is one of the best of all time. The point of my argument was to dispute any feelings that K is vastly superior to Dean, much like the sentiment DevilsFan expressed.

Even though K and Dean overlapped by 14 years, they operated in very different environments. So, apt comparisons are difficult.

As I mentioned in my first argument, a couple of small twists of fate seperate Dean and K...that's all. If I had to pick between the two, of course I would pick K, but it wouldn't be a slamdunk decision. Dean is one of the best of all time.

Frankly, I can't believe I'm backing the guy so strongly, considering how many years I truly hated him. But I've grown and matured, so here I am now.

You call it simple twists of fate, I call it the difference between being one of the greats (Dean) and one of the best (K).

Faison1
12-26-2010, 03:35 PM
You call it simple twists of fate, I call it the difference between being one of the greats (Dean) and one of the best (K).

That's a pretty good way to phrase it.

gumbomoop
12-26-2010, 04:28 PM
If I had to pick between the two, of course I would pick K, but it wouldn't be a slamdunk decision. Dean is one of the best of all time.

Frankly, I can't believe I'm backing the guy so strongly, considering how many years I truly hated him. But I've grown and matured, so here I am now.

I pretty much agree with Faison1 here [except that as I've aged I've become more immature....].

I want to see whether there's any consensus [not unanimity, just significant agreement] on a few issues, a kind of least common denominator approach that says, well, at least we mostly agree on these few things, but beyond these, nope.

These:

1. On the negative side, Dean/K shoulda -

a. Dean can be fairly criticized for not having won at least one additional NC, given all that talent he had all those years. Maybe even 2 more.

b. K can be fairly criticized for being outcoached by - bleccchhh - Jim Calhoun in the 1999 NC. Possibly even 2004, though Duke was the underdog in '04, so.....

2. On the positive side,

a. for Dean - Dean was a great coach. [Consensus, right?] Even if one insists that Dean didn't invent all that creative, smart, effective X/O stuff that he implemented over the years, at least we can concede he adapted and adopted an impressive batch of effective game-strategy-stuff [here I simply cut & paste from an earlier post on another Dean thread]: 4-corners, huddle, back-tap on free throws, run-jump double-team, save time-outs [yes, Roy has shown how this creative tactic can backfire....], pointing to teammate who deserves credit for assist, using both sideline and timeline as extra defender on traps, 2 for 1 in last minute by getting off quick shot with 6-8 seconds left on shot clock, saving for last shot when you have ball and shot clock off, baseline throw to halfcourt and quick timeout to get better shot at end-game [presumably this one also involved alerting ref of intent to do this, thus gaining yet another crucial fraction of a second].

b. for K - well, I don't need to list anything, as I know there's consensus and near-unanimity on K's accomplishments. Suffice it to say, K is the only coach right now who can be discussed with Wooden. Yes?

Have we consensus, a pathetic, minimal, scraggly consensus? [A kind of, ok, yes, "The Little Match Girl" is a sad story, consensus.] Don't break my heart; it's Christmas.

hurleyfor3
12-26-2010, 04:42 PM
I'm interested in reading in what ways you think they have a lot in common.

Sure. (1993 unc and 2010 Duke, that is.)

Both teams, as you mentioned, were heavily reliant on upperclassmen. Unc's starters were three juniors, one senior and one freshman (Donald Williams), with Heinrich Rodl, a senior, sometimes starting in place of Williams. We had three seiors and two juniors.

Both teams had one very good but not supremely dominant all-around guy -- Lynch and Singler, respectively. Neither were Michael Jordan or Grant Hill, but both eventually asserted themselves as team leaders as the season went on. For that matter, both teams took some time developing an identity.

Both teams were very tall and deep up front, but not all that talented. Eric Montross had ONE scoring move that I can still see in my sleep. That's one more move than Brian Zoubek had, but the dude wasn't even Brendon Haywood, much less a Laettner or Hansbrough.

Both teams had players with pretty rigidly-defined roles and crucially, players content to accept those roles. Nobody on either team was asked to do something they weren't good at.

Unc '93 was "Dean's team" in a way the '82 team wasn't (and in a way the '05 and '09 unc teams weren't "Roy's teams".) Same with 2010 and K.

The 1993 unc championship came the year after a dominating performance by Dean's greatest rival, and in the wake of people saying Dean had lost his edge and was on the way down in his career. Sound familiar?

There were differences, of course. Unc was more offensively minded (but again, Dean's frontcourt rotation of Montross, Kevin Salvadori and Matt Wenstrom wasn't in place because they were all great scorers). Unc was deeper, but Duke's starting five was probably a bit more talented. Specifically, Jon Scheyer was better than Williams and almost as good a PG as Derrick (sp?) Phelps. No Duke player who got significant minutes was as useless as Rodl or Scott Cherry.

DU82
12-26-2010, 05:49 PM
Excellent, davekay.

Ole Roy even with all his eccentricities is just not in the same category as El Deano. It's as if your "favorite" villain from a TV series or play is replaced by another actor. The stand-in just doesn't live up to the original character.

So, Carolina's now being coached by Dick Sargent?

BD80
12-26-2010, 07:18 PM
Completely different teams. The unc '91 final four team was mostly seniors (and Hubert Davis was a junior). Few of that year's freshmen saw a whole lot of PT except for Montross, and even he didn't get a whole lot. Yes, I remember the Blue Team; they weren't the reason unc won or lost any game that year. The only real link between '91 and '93 was George Lynch.

When I claim '93 unc and 2010 Duke had a lot in common -- and they do -- I mean that as a compliment. To both Dean and K.

The '93 tar heels had FOUR seniors and FIVE juniors (5 McD AAs) in the rotation, plus McD AA sophmore Donald Williams. NINE players with final four experience is significant. The only additional players on the '91 team were Pete Chilcut (sr - drafted #27), Hubert Davis (jr - NOT a McD AA, drafted #24), King Rice (sr), and Rick Fox (sr -NOT a McD AA). So the '93 team did get significant experience in '91. They also played together a lot in '92, it was essentially the same team that played in '93, plus Davis. After 2008, Duke lost GHenderson (on several AA teams - drafted #12), Paulus, and McClure as well as EWilliams, Czyz and Pocius. K had to completely retool.

Eric Montross was a top 5 recruit, a 2nd team AA, the 9th pick in the '94 draft and played many years in the league. Lynch was the 12th pick in 93. Williams, Phelps, Sullivan, Salvadore, Calabria and Reese were very good college players. Even Wenstrom was talented for a 3rd string center.

I'll give you that there are similarities and that Smith did a good job of coaching, but that effort does not compare to K's masterpiece last year.

-jk
12-26-2010, 07:30 PM
So, Carolina's now being coached by Dick Sargent?

Hmm... Maybe David Ogden Stiers - he was more an antagonist.

-jk

OldPhiKap
12-27-2010, 09:05 AM
Hmm... Maybe David Ogden Stiers - he was more an antagonist.

-jk

More like Chachi, the poor man's Fonz.

BD80
12-27-2010, 10:27 AM
More like Chachi, the poor man's Fonz.

Oh come on!

If EVER there was a Chachi on the tar heel bench, it was D'oh. Except D'oh would never have been able to score with Joanie.

I think the Dick Sargeant comparison to ol' roy is apt, he couldn't find the magic in a house full of witches, and he had absolutely no control of what was going on in his own house.

OldPhiKap
12-27-2010, 10:45 AM
Scooby-Doo v. Scrappy-Doo?

kong123
12-27-2010, 11:36 AM
this will make you mad

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/uncs-williams-im-not-happy-but-i-am-happy-about-coach-ks-approaching-milestone

Indoor66
12-27-2010, 11:48 AM
this will make you mad

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/uncs-williams-im-not-happy-but-i-am-happy-about-coach-ks-approaching-milestone

Why is that? I thought Roy was very gracious and realistic in his statements and his expression of feelings. I would expect nothing less from a rival coach.

OldPhiKap
12-27-2010, 11:53 AM
Why is that? I thought Roy was very gracious and realistic in his statements and his expression of feelings. I would expect nothing less from a rival coach.

I think it's more likely to upset Carolina fans (as Roy mentions at least twice).

Very gracious by Roy I thought.

JasonEvans
12-27-2010, 12:03 PM
From the Roy Williams interview on K linked above...


I have a picture in my office of me, and Coach Wooden, and Coach Smith that is really a special picture to me. Sometime I would really like to have a picture of me and Bob Knight, John Thompson, and Dean Smith and Mike Krzyzewski, because those are people who really are the real giants the profession.

John Thompson? Really?

I mean, I agree he was a great coach and an admirable guy, but I don't really see him in the same conversation with Dean, K, Knight, and Wooden. Those 4 are the Mt. Rushmore of college hoops coaching if you ask me.

-Jason "I agree that Roy's words do not bother me at all -- seems very respectful and genuine" Evans

JasonEvans
12-27-2010, 12:16 PM
I pretty much agree with Faison1 here [except that as I've aged I've become more immature....].

I want to see whether there's any consensus [not unanimity, just significant agreement] on a few issues, a kind of least common denominator approach that says, well, at least we mostly agree on these few things, but beyond these, nope.

These:

1. On the negative side, Dean/K shoulda -

a. Dean can be fairly criticized for not having won at least one additional NC, given all that talent he had all those years. Maybe even 2 more.

b. K can be fairly criticized for being outcoached by - bleccchhh - Jim Calhoun in the 1999 NC. Possibly even 2004, though Duke was the underdog in '04, so.....

2. On the positive side,

a. for Dean - Dean was a great coach. [Consensus, right?] Even if one insists that Dean didn't invent all that creative, smart, effective X/O stuff that he implemented over the years, at least we can concede he adapted and adopted an impressive batch of effective game-strategy-stuff [here I simply cut & paste from an earlier post on another Dean thread]: 4-corners, huddle, back-tap on free throws, run-jump double-team, save time-outs [yes, Roy has shown how this creative tactic can backfire....], pointing to teammate who deserves credit for assist, using both sideline and timeline as extra defender on traps, 2 for 1 in last minute by getting off quick shot with 6-8 seconds left on shot clock, saving for last shot when you have ball and shot clock off, baseline throw to halfcourt and quick timeout to get better shot at end-game [presumably this one also involved alerting ref of intent to do this, thus gaining yet another crucial fraction of a second].

b. for K - well, I don't need to list anything, as I know there's consensus and near-unanimity on K's accomplishments. Suffice it to say, K is the only coach right now who can be discussed with Wooden. Yes?

Have we consensus, a pathetic, minimal, scraggly consensus? [A kind of, ok, yes, "The Little Match Girl" is a sad story, consensus.] Don't break my heart; it's Christmas.

Good stuff. Makes me wonder something...

Do we almost exclusively grade coaches on championships? One of the principal argument for K over Dean seems to be K's national titles. I think total wins is a bit silly as measuring sticks go because different eras means different numbers of games in a season and much of the total wins statistic comes down to whether you became a head coach at 30 or 35 or whether you retired at 65 or 70.

I know there are other criteria that weigh into these questions, but it often seems that national titles carries the greatest weight. Many on this board have seemed to downplay Dean's role as an innovator (lets forget the argument about whether he invented the stuff or became among the first and most successful at using them) because he did not win enough titles.

Do we give extra credit to Bill Walsh for bringing the West Coast offense to pro football? Do we give extra weight to the accomplishments of Phil Jackson (and Tex Winter) because of the innovation of the Triangle?

I dunno the answer to these things. I merely put it out there for continued discussion and thought. I do think that Dean was more of an innovator than K and that should count for something. I don't think it is enough to make him better than K, but I think it is something not to be overlooked in this conversation.

And, back to my original question, I think K and Dean would both say that while they strive to win the championship, that is not their sole goal each season and not the only way to judge a coaching effort. It is about building and shaping young men; forming a team that plays hard and does things the right way; it is about the journey as much as it is about the destination. I bet K and Dean would say some of their finest coaching efforts were with teams that ended up short of the ultimate destination.

--Jason "this has been a good thread-- lots of level-headed conversation" Evans

devildeac
12-27-2010, 12:20 PM
this will make you mad

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/uncs-williams-im-not-happy-but-i-am-happy-about-coach-ks-approaching-milestone


Why is that? I thought Roy was very gracious and realistic in his statements and his expression of feelings. I would expect nothing less from a rival coach.


I think it's more likely to upset Carolina fans (as Roy mentions at least twice).

Very gracious by Roy I thought.


From the Roy Williams interview on K linked above...



John Thompson? Really?

I mean, I agree he was a great coach and an admirable guy, but I don't really see him in the same conversation with Dean, K, Knight, and Wooden. Those 4 are the Mt. Rushmore of college hoops coaching if you ask me.

-Jason "I agree that Roy's words do not bother me at all -- seems very respectful and genuine" Evans

Doesn't make me mad at all. Shouldn't make any Duke fans mad. May royally PO the unc faithful. That's about a classy a set of quotes/interview you can imagine from such a fierce/intense rival. Thanks for sharing that link, kong. Good stuff.

DevilHorns
12-27-2010, 12:34 PM
Good stuff. Makes me wonder something...

Do we almost exclusively grade coaches on championships? One of the principal argument for K over Dean seems to be K's national titles. I think total wins is a bit silly as measuring sticks go because different eras means different numbers of games in a season and much of the total wins statistic comes down to whether you became a head coach at 30 or 35 or whether you retired at 65 or 70.

I know there are other criteria that weigh into these questions, but it often seems that national titles carries the greatest weight. Many on this board have seemed to downplay Dean's role as an innovator (lets forget the argument about whether he invented the stuff or became among the first and most successful at using them) because he did not win enough titles.

Do we give extra credit to Bill Walsh for bringing the West Coast offense to pro football? Do we give extra weight to the accomplishments of Phil Jackson (and Tex Winter) because of the innovation of the Triangle?

I dunno the answer to these things. I merely put it out there for continued discussion and thought. I do think that Dean was more of an innovator than K and that should count for something. I don't think it is enough to make him better than K, but I think it is something not to be overlooked in this conversation.

And, back to my original question, I think K and Dean would both say that while they strive to win the championship, that is not their sole goal each season and not the only way to judge a coaching effort. It is about building and shaping young men; forming a team that plays hard and does things the right way; it is about the journey as much as it is about the destination. I bet K and Dean would say some of their finest coaching efforts were with teams that ended up short of the ultimate destination.

--Jason "this has been a good thread-- lots of level-headed conversation" Evans

Well... not exclusively. If that was the case, Billy Donovan would be in the same company as Dean, Roy, and Calhoun, and heck, ahead of Izzo! Consistency is important. The era they were coaching in is important (now most of the top players don't stay for 4 years, field expanded, etc). The ability to mold teams to maximize talent is important.

For me Dean is an 'elite' coach as he set the standard for the ACC and created a program that was remarkably consistent over 30+ years. I think the 'innovation' argument and the 'he's a great guy' argument that I constantly hear from UNC fans are a little bit overblown in regards to what makes him an 'elite' coach.

In regards to what takes him out of the discussion of the greatest NCAA basketball coach of all time is his performance in the biggest tournament. He has 2 titles to his credit, which is a feat, but obviously far less than K and Wooden. He has a losing record in the final four and in championship games. Again, against the hardest competition in a given year, he has a losing record.

Top 5 coach of all time, yes. But he's not close to K or Wooden.

pokeresq
12-27-2010, 01:00 PM
I actually was impressed with Roy in this one as he seemed genuine in his comments, which I do not always find him to be. While rabid fans on both sides don't like to admit it, Dean and K share many similarities, especially with regard to having a focus on the program which they built and maintained, plus a realization that college was a better fit than the nba. I wish all Duke fans were showing as much class and graciousness as Roy did.

NSDukeFan
12-27-2010, 08:23 PM
Good stuff. Makes me wonder something...

Do we almost exclusively grade coaches on championships? One of the principal argument for K over Dean seems to be K's national titles. I think total wins is a bit silly as measuring sticks go because different eras means different numbers of games in a season and much of the total wins statistic comes down to whether you became a head coach at 30 or 35 or whether you retired at 65 or 70.

I know there are other criteria that weigh into these questions, but it often seems that national titles carries the greatest weight. Many on this board have seemed to downplay Dean's role as an innovator (lets forget the argument about whether he invented the stuff or became among the first and most successful at using them) because he did not win enough titles.

Do we give extra credit to Bill Walsh for bringing the West Coast offense to pro football? Do we give extra weight to the accomplishments of Phil Jackson (and Tex Winter) because of the innovation of the Triangle?

I dunno the answer to these things. I merely put it out there for continued discussion and thought. I do think that Dean was more of an innovator than K and that should count for something. I don't think it is enough to make him better than K, but I think it is something not to be overlooked in this conversation.

And, back to my original question, I think K and Dean would both say that while they strive to win the championship, that is not their sole goal each season and not the only way to judge a coaching effort. It is about building and shaping young men; forming a team that plays hard and does things the right way; it is about the journey as much as it is about the destination. I bet K and Dean would say some of their finest coaching efforts were with teams that ended up short of the ultimate destination.

--Jason "this has been a good thread-- lots of level-headed conversation" Evans

Nice post. It is interesting to wonder how much should championships matter in how a coach is ranked?

Another interesting point you made was about coach Smith as more of an innovator than coach K. That may be true, but I wonder if whether you are considered an innovator is as important as finding different ways to win. Obviously, if Dean brought some innovations to college basketball or popularized them, he found different ways to win or be more successful that other coaches may not have been able to do. If coach K "steals" other innovations from everywhere else and moulds his systems to match the personnel he has, that is another way of finding different ways to win, that not a lot of other coaches have been able to do. He also seems to believe in Continuous Quality Improvement or something like it, as he seems to tweak his systems and philosophies and coaching ideas to try to continually improve.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you have said about Dean's innovations potentially being a consideration in how he is viewed, but that coach K has been successful winning in different ways, but maybe instead of being the one that popularized something, he just kept tweaking things to make his teams as good as they could be in a different way.

uh_no
12-27-2010, 08:58 PM
Nice post. It is interesting to wonder how much should championships matter in how a coach is ranked?


I know this is a reference to women's basketball, but vivian stringer is a great case of this:

she is in the hall of fame and has like 800 wins....but a whopping 0 national championships (i firmly believe her hall of fame entry was *greatly* boosted by the imus fiasco) but she's not often considered on the levels of the other great coaches in the women's game because she hasn't got the hardware

1 24 90
12-27-2010, 09:03 PM
They just announced that on Wednesday at 6:30 on ESPNU before the Duke UNCG game, they are airing a special called "Passing the Dean". Set your DVR. (Sorry if this has already been mentioned).

NSDukeFan
12-27-2010, 09:39 PM
I know this is a reference to women's basketball, but vivian stringer is a great case of this:

she is in the hall of fame and has like 800 wins....but a whopping 0 national championships (i firmly believe her hall of fame entry was *greatly* boosted by the imus fiasco) but she's not often considered on the levels of the other great coaches in the women's game because she hasn't got the hardware

I don't know enough about Stringer's career, aside from the Imus game, but think you would have to be a pretty good coach to win 800 times, though can see why she may not be considered one of the greats if her teams never won a championship. I guess I am in the championships should not be the be-all end-all when discussing how great a coach someone is. As has been discussed, there is too much uncertainty and chance that can affect a championship.

nocilla
12-28-2010, 08:14 AM
Not sure where to put it but this seems like the most relevant thread.

The ACC Coach of the year chart on the main page has a minor error in it. It shows Vic Bubas as coaching from 1960-1989 which should be 1969 I believe.

moonpie23
12-28-2010, 08:51 AM
didn't JT go after cal one time? maybe that was it...

sagegrouse
12-28-2010, 08:58 AM
didn't JT go after cal one time? maybe that was it...

Not sure exactly what this is, but John Chaney threatened to kill Calipari (http://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/14/sports/college-basketball-chaney-lambastes-umass-s-calipari.html)at a press conference following a UMass-Temple game in 1994. I have never heard of any dustup involving Big Jawn Thompson.

sagegrouse

OldPhiKap
12-28-2010, 09:09 AM
Not sure exactly what this is, but John Chaney threatened to kill Calipari (http://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/14/sports/college-basketball-chaney-lambastes-umass-s-calipari.html)at a press conference following a UMass-Temple game in 1994. I have never heard of any dustup involving Big Jawn Thompson.

sagegrouse

Methinks a dustup involving Big Jawn Thompson could only end one way.

And we'd know it happened.

Kfanarmy
12-28-2010, 09:40 AM
Even though K and Dean overlapped by 14 years, they operated in very different environments. So, apt comparisons are difficult.


Pls explain...this makes no sense to me...

Kfanarmy
12-28-2010, 10:24 AM
I don't know enough about Stringer's career, aside from the Imus game, but think you would have to be a pretty good coach to win 800 times, though can see why she may not be considered one of the greats if her teams never won a championship.

I think the general disparity in talent between teams in women's BBall makes the accomplishments of Mens and womens coaches uncomparable. If you can recruit above average talent in Womens BBall you should win ~25 games every season. unfortunately the development in grade/high school just doesn't produce enough women BBall players to make as many competitive teams. Stringer recruited (it seems to me) a very specific type of player and got high quality talent because of it. There really seem to be only a handful of teams CAPABLE of winning the national championship each year. Even with luck, Cinderellas aren't competitive.

Faison1
12-28-2010, 01:07 PM
Pls explain...this makes no sense to me...

There are several reasons why I feel this way:

1. Age and experience discrepancy....K was in his early 30's when they first started competing, while Dean was in the later years of his career.

2. All of us can agree that the game has dramatically changed in the last 16 years: exponentially more early departures to the NBA; watered down talent level in NCAA hoops; the gradual decline of the ACC in the last 8 to 10 years

3. Arguably, the peak of Dean's career was in the early to mid 80's, when the ACC was also, arguably, at one of its historic peaks

4. Many of K's most dominant years have come when the ACC was not quite as good as the early to mid 80's

Those are just some of the reasons why I think it is tough to make apt comparisons. I'm not saying it's good or bad....just difficult to compare.

moonpie23
12-28-2010, 01:18 PM
Not sure exactly what this is, but John Chaney threatened to kill Calipari (http://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/14/sports/college-basketball-chaney-lambastes-umass-s-calipari.html)at a press conference following a UMass-Temple game in 1994. I have never heard of any dustup involving Big Jawn Thompson.

sagegrouse

ahh.....now i remember correctly... :)

dairedevil
12-28-2010, 01:24 PM
There are several reasons why I feel this way:
........

Those are just some of the reasons why I think it is tough to make apt comparisons. I'm not saying it's good or bad....just difficult to compare.

And yet, this is probably as good as it will ever get for comparisons...Have there ever been coaches of this caliber coaching in the same conference against each other for as many years as these two have?

The coaching environment is always changing, and it can make a comparison difficult. There is something extra special about this milestone I think because of the who/what/where/when/how these two men coached.

sagegrouse
12-28-2010, 01:29 PM
If Chris Webber had not called that time out....would anyone care about Dean?
If Fred Brown had not thrown the ball to James Worthy....would anyone care about Dean?

I dont think what if is a good game to play when comparing the two. We have enough indisputable facts to compare them.

Super "Or we could do the what if thing and go ahead and give K titles in '86, '94, '99 and '04" Dave

I disagree that UNC's two NCs were primarily due to bonehead plays by the opposition. UNC had the lead in both games. It had the good luck or, just maybe, the defensive excellence so that first Georgetown and then Michigan dropkicked their chances to tie or take the lead. Whether Georgetown could have run a play and gotten off a shot is an open question, since the TO came just across half court. Michigan and Chris Weber, however, looked totally lost in 1993 and unlikely to get off anything but a prayer.

I agree with the "almosts" for Duke in 1986, 1994, 1999, and 2004, but Duke did win close games against LV and Butler that led to titles. And the comeback against Maryland was one for the ages: but how, pray tell, were we losing to the Terps by 22 points in the first half?

I can't remember "almosts" for UNC, but then I don't really care that much.

sagegrouse

roywhite
12-28-2010, 01:37 PM
And yet, this is probably as good as it will ever get for comparisons...Have there ever been coaches of this caliber coaching in the same conference against each other for as many years as these two have?

The coaching environment is always changing, and it can make a comparison difficult. There is something extra special about this milestone I think because of the who/what/where/when/how these two men coached.

Woody Hayes of tOSU vs Bo Schembechler of UMich in Big 10 football comes to mind for the caliber of coaches and the intensity of the rivalry.

K vs Dean probably still gets the nod...longer duration and more national championships between them than Woody and Bo.

Bluealum
12-28-2010, 02:06 PM
Nice post. It is interesting to wonder how much should championships matter in how a coach is ranked?

Another interesting point you made was about coach Smith as more of an innovator than coach K. That may be true, but I wonder if whether you are considered an innovator is as important as finding different ways to win. Obviously, if Dean brought some innovations to college basketball or popularized them, he found different ways to win or be more successful that other coaches may not have been able to do. If coach K "steals" other innovations from everywhere else and moulds his systems to match the personnel he has, that is another way of finding different ways to win, that not a lot of other coaches have been able to do. He also seems to believe in Continuous Quality Improvement or something like it, as he seems to tweak his systems and philosophies and coaching ideas to try to continually improve.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you have said about Dean's innovations potentially being a consideration in how he is viewed, but that coach K has been successful winning in different ways, but maybe instead of being the one that popularized something, he just kept tweaking things to make his teams as good as they could be in a different way.

Great thread...

For all the similarities from the point of view of overall success, the great difference between the two ways of winning was, in my view, a difference in focus. Dean really was an in game tactical genius. His ability to use the rules of his time (that were constantly changing) to his advantage and to get his teams to think about how to use those rules during the course of the game was amazing. When we think about many of UNC's comebacks in the last few seconds of a close game we think about Dean's use of timeouts, sidelines, presses etc and of course there is the too often mentioned four corners 'innovation', when they were ahead. He is no doubt the benchmark tactitian. Makes Roy's foibles all the more amusing in this area really.

When looking at K, the thing that stands inevitably out is psychology over tactics. When discussing why he had Zoub's miss the final free throw, it was less about tactics and more about the psychology of the team and the moment, ultimately his feel for the game. He understands how to motivate people and build leaders. He gets how to make two ultra competitive brothers work together on a highly competitive team when the younger is the more touted/talented (Plumlees - he is not given enough credit for this). He knows how to reorganize a team's thinking when the team is struggling and their most talented interior player goes down (Boozer) by asking one of the veterans to come off the bench (Nate). Building team dynamics and getting the most out of his players from a mental perspective is K's 'specialty'. I don't think that many folks would suggest that Langdon attempting the last contested shot against UConn in 1999 was the best thing tactically. However if Avery or Brand had taken the last shot and missed, it would have been worse for the team than having their senior All American take it psychologically.

There are many ways to win. That they both did it with honor and integrity is fantastic for the game. That they both did it differently from a coaching perspective is fascinating. While I totally agree that titles themselves aren't the only barometer, or even the most important one, I love that our guy has 4 and their guy has two... ;)

OldPhiKap
12-28-2010, 02:31 PM
And yet, this is probably as good as it will ever get for comparisons...Have there ever been coaches of this caliber coaching in the same conference against each other for as many years as these two have?

The coaching environment is always changing, and it can make a comparison difficult. There is something extra special about this milestone I think because of the who/what/where/when/how these two men coached.

Rollie and Big John in the Big East?

Indoor66
12-28-2010, 02:56 PM
Rollie and Big John in the Big East?

I gotta say, not even close. All due respect to you OPK.

OldPhiKap
12-28-2010, 04:27 PM
I gotta say, not even close. All due respect to you OPK.

Not saying it's close, just the closest I can come up with.



(But I do appreciate the respect, 'cause I can use all I can get. ;) )

devildeac
12-28-2010, 04:47 PM
Rollie and Big John in the Big East?


I gotta say, not even close. All due respect to you OPK.


Not saying it's close, just the closest I can come up with.



(But I do appreciate the respect, 'cause I can use all I can get. ;) )

That Boeheim fella has been coaching a few years, too, IIRC. Wonder if he has any rivals.;)

OldPhiKap
12-28-2010, 04:52 PM
That Boeheim fella has been coaching a few years, too, IIRC. Wonder if he has any rivals.;)

Yeah, I thought about him but not sure of the overlaps. He and Calhoun, maybe?

If you look at the number of times that K and Dean faced off where one (or both) was in the top 5, it is staggering. Always something big on the line.

devildeac
12-28-2010, 05:09 PM
Yeah, I thought about him but not sure of the overlaps. He and Calhoun, maybe?

If you look at the number of times that K and Dean faced off where one (or both) was in the top 5, it is staggering. Always something big on the line.

That would work. Boeheim has been at Syracuse since 1976 and Calhoun at uCON since 1986. I'd wager they faced each other several times when they both had top 10 rankings in the last 24 years when the Big East wasn't so big. Not trying to say it's as big as K and Smith but those are 2 of the winningest coaches in NCAA history also and anytime K or a friend of K's whips Calhoun, I'm a happy fellow;).

davekay1971
12-28-2010, 05:10 PM
I can't remember "almosts" for UNC, but then I don't really care that much.

sagegrouse

In terms of close losses in the final four or championship game, UNC actually doesn't have any that stand out as a game where they were one or two plays away from winning (http://www.tarheeltimes.com/basketball/final-four-appearances.aspx)

The biggest almost for UNC was probably the 1984 season, which didn't come close to an NC, but had UNC looking like the prohibitive NC favorite until Kenny Smith's injury. That team had Smith, Jordan (a junior), Brad Daugherty (soph), and seniors Sam Perkins and Matty Doh, along with some good young players (Joe Wolf, among others). They were absolutely rolling until Smith's injury, and he came back for postseason play but wasn't the same as he was pre-injury and the team didn't do a great job of re-incorporating him. I think they flamed out in the sweet 16. Obviously, injuries are part of the game, as Duke knows all too well, but with Smith healthy all season, UNC had a great shot at winning it all.

JasonEvans
12-28-2010, 05:30 PM
The biggest almost for UNC was probably the 1984 season, which didn't come close to an NC, but had UNC looking like the prohibitive NC favorite until Kenny Smith's injury. That team had Smith, Jordan (a junior), Brad Daugherty (soph), and seniors Sam Perkins and Matty Doh, along with some good young players (Joe Wolf, among others). They were absolutely rolling until Smith's injury, and he came back for postseason play but wasn't the same as he was pre-injury and the team didn't do a great job of re-incorporating him. I think they flamed out in the sweet 16. Obviously, injuries are part of the game, as Duke knows all too well, but with Smith healthy all season, UNC had a great shot at winning it all.

They did lose in the Sweet 16 to Indiana. Dan Dakich, a little-known wing for Indiana, had the defensive game of his lifetime, hounding Jordan all over the floor and forcing the NPOY into 6-14 shooting with 4 turnovers. Jordan got in foul trouble and ended up fouling out of the game playing only 26 minutes. It was probably his worst game of the season. Freshman Steve Alford was unstoppable for Indiana in that game, scoring 27 points.

--Jason "I was at that game (it was played in Atlanta) and Carolina's loss utterly stunned the crowd" Evans

Indoor66
12-28-2010, 05:37 PM
They did lose in the Sweet 16 to Indiana. Dan Dakich, a little-known wing for Indiana, had the defensive game of his lifetime, hounding Jordan all over the floor and forcing the NPOY into 6-14 shooting with 4 turnovers. Jordan got in foul trouble and ended up fouling out of the game playing only 26 minutes. It was probably his worst game of the season. Freshman Steve Alford was unstoppable for Indiana in that game, scoring 27 points.

--Jason "I was at that game (it was played in Atlanta) and Carolina's loss utterly stunned the crowd" Evans

LOL, don't all of the Carolina losses "stun the crowd?"

OldPhiKap
12-28-2010, 06:06 PM
LOL, don't all of the Carolina losses "stun the crowd?"

My personal favorite was when they lost to Kansas in the final four, and some would say that Dean got himself tossed at the very end in order to draw some attention to himself as he exited.

(Not that I would say that, of course).

gumbomoop
12-28-2010, 07:42 PM
Great thread...

For all the similarities from the point of view of overall success, the great difference between the two ways of winning was, in my view, a difference in focus. Dean really was an in game tactical genius. His ability to use the rules of his time (that were constantly changing) to his advantage and to get his teams to think about how to use those rules during the course of the game was amazing.

When looking at K, the thing that stands inevitably out is psychology over tactics. When discussing why he had Zoub's miss the final free throw, it was less about tactics and more about the psychology of the team and the moment, ultimately his feel for the game. He understands how to motivate people and build leaders.

There are many ways to win. That they both did it with honor and integrity is fantastic for the game. That they both did it differently from a coaching perspective is fascinating.

Excellent analysis. I've bolded what I [actually, you - and undoubtedly other posters on this and similar threads] see as the key attribute of each. And I'd be really interested to hear from any poster who'd argue [with examples] that K is Dean's equal as an in-game tactical genius; and/or who'd claim [and substantiate] that Dean's "feel for the moment" was as intuitively brilliant as K's.

Devilsfan
12-28-2010, 07:45 PM
Congratulations Coach K! All I can say is "what took you so long?"

roywhite
12-28-2010, 08:00 PM
Excellent analysis. I've bolded what I [actually, you - and undoubtedly other posters on this and similar threads] see as the key attribute of each. And I'd be really interested to hear from any poster who'd argue [with examples] that K is Dean's equal as an in-game tactical genius; and/or who'd claim [and substantiate] that Dean's "feel for the moment" was as intuitively brilliant as K's.

I'm not sure I would express it as "feel for the moment" but I do think Dean was a master of the psychology and motivation of his teams. Just a few of my own observations:

Dean's teams were very consistent; even in rebuilding years, he was able to produce good teams. I recall a UNC team that was below their norm in talent level getting a #8 seed in the NCAA Tournament and knocking off #1 seed Oklahoma (Rick Fox with a buzzer-beater in 1990).

Dean had a way of bringing along young big men, including guys that seemed so awkward they would never contribute; they would learn the fundamentals (positioning, keep the ball up high, having an effective turn-around jump shot) and became serviceable by the time they were seniors. Ex: Kevin Salvadori, Warren Martin, Serge Zwikker, etc. Always felt that Shav Randolph would have done better with a coach like Dean (who had retired at that point) than he did with Duke and Coach K (even Coach K doesn't connect with every kid, and I think Shav is an example of that). What Dean provided with the big men was teaching and patience.

Dean did not publicly criticize his players, or "throw them under the bus" the way Ole Roy does. For public consumption, at least, he often praised his players and took the blame for losses and setbacks himself, which seemed to work well in motivating his players and developing the team concept. Bad chemistry was just not an issue with UNC when Dean was coaching; what we saw instead was great loyalty and team identification from the players.

gumbomoop
12-28-2010, 08:39 PM
Dean did not publicly criticize his players, or "throw them under the bus" the way Ole Roy does. For public consumption, at least, he often praised his players and took the blame for losses and setbacks himself, which seemed to work well in motivating his players and developing the team concept. Bad chemistry was just not an issue with UNC when Dean was coaching; what we saw instead was great loyalty and team identification from the players.

Yes, I remember this [bolded point], and am wondering whether I'm also mis-remembering something: at the time I found at least some of Dean's blame-shouldering insincere. But I'm guessing that it was more my dislike of Dean [mostly frustration at how good his teams were] than insincerity on his part. I'd find it fascinating to go back and look at some of his interviews to see what I'd now think of his PR stuff.

And it's definitely easier for me to acknowledge Dean's greatness, given the fortunes of Duke basketball under K.

Newton_14
12-28-2010, 09:27 PM
I agree with Roy, Gum, Jason, and others on Dean. My brother-in-law used to say that "Dean Smith could take 4 average guys off the street and a broomstick and compete with anybody". I actually think Dean was better with his less talented teams than he was with some of the loaded teams he had.

Some staples of Dean Smith teams that I recall:

- Comebacks. I can't tell you how many times I watched a team with a 6 to 8 point lead with less than 3 minutes to go end up losing to UNC. Much of this was prior to the shot clock and 3-Point Shot. In that same vein, his teams could almost never be blown out. They would be down 14, 16, 18 points with 6 or 7 minutes left and the opposing team would end up holding on for dear life and winning by a point or two, or losing. That is when Dean would use those hundreds of timeouts he had saved up and call one every time they scored late.

-End of Game Play - Down 1 or 2 points in the pre-3 Point Shot era, or 1, 2, or 3 points in the post-3 Point shot era, less than 10 seconds left in the game. It did not matter where they were inbounding the ball or how many seconds were left on the clock, UNC always, and I mean always, got a good/great look to win it or tie it. He was just a master at drawing up plays in that situation. If they had to go the full length of the court, you could count on a pass to halfcourt with an immediate timeout called as soon as the player caught the pass.

-Steals on In-Bound Plays- Late in games during a comeback or when the opponent was in the midst of a comeback, Dean's teams had an uncanny ability to get a steal or a 5 Second Call when the opponent was trying to inbound the ball. They were so good at this I can actually remember announcers commenting that opposing coaches should not call a timeout to set up a play because chances were, they may not get it inbounds.

There are more examples and some have been touched on but these are things I recall from the Dean years. I hated the guy, but there is no denying his greatness. I begrudgingly respected his abilities then, but having a bit more maturity now than back then, I have no problem giving him his due now. He deserves the accolades, which is why tomorrow night is a genuine historic achievement for Coach K. He is entering rarified air.

(I will also add that Roy Williams simply does not measure up to his mentor. There is Wooden, Knight, K, and Dean, then a significant gap to the next group of great coaches.)

hurleyfor3
12-28-2010, 09:40 PM
In terms of close losses in the final four or championship game, UNC actually doesn't have any that stand out as a game where they were one or two plays away from winning (http://www.tarheeltimes.com/basketball/final-four-appearances.aspx)


The 1977 national championship game wasn't decided in the last couple of possessions, but was directly attributable to Dean's tactics. During the second half, unc rallied from a 12-point deficit to nearly tie (I forget how close they came, but it was one possession or less; they may have taken the lead even) by applying defensive pressure, forcing turnovers and bad shots and scoring in transition. Then Dean slowed the pace down by going to Four Corners -- this would have been with 10 minutes or so left. Not only did Dean completely kill his own team's momentum, but unc missed a couple of easy layups, and Marquette (less athletic and not as deep as unc to begin with) was happy to play at a slower pace, eventually building a lead back up and pulling away.

When Dean says Four Corners worked 165 out of 167 times or whatever, this was one of the times it failed. It's a fantastic game to watch from the standpoint of someone who always roots against unc.

superdave
12-29-2010, 09:11 PM
I think I can now bury the hatchet with Dean....not that he cares!
In the words of Walter Sobcek, "worthy adversary."

TampaDukie
12-29-2010, 09:24 PM
I really appreciated Coach Smith's statement regarding Coach K's 880th victory. I also though Roy's comments during the pre-game special were very kind, as well. Sometimes this rivalry brings out the worst in us, but every now and then, it brings out the best, too.

Burgh2BlueDevil
12-29-2010, 10:12 PM
Having been around Duke Basketball for over 30 years and having graduated from both the Dark Blue and Light Blue schools, I have witnessed some great moments in ACC basketball history. My dislike of Coach Smith has waned a great deal over the years, especially now that his health is declining. I recognize his coaching genius, his supreme achievements and the fact that he built a lasting legend at UNC-CH.

The one thing that has always bothered me about Coach Smith was that, even though he seemed/seems very modest about his own success, in my mind, he never really displayed the grace and class it takes to acknowledge the achievements of his peers or other successful programs. I have always thought it would have been great if he came out and said that Coach K had built a basketball power at Duke equal to his own program at Kerlina. To my knowledge, Dean never has come close to making a statement like this even in the weak written effort issued after Duke's victory over UNC-G. I was appalled that the statement from Dean started off by saying that Coach K should thank all of his players for his success. I believe that even after being away from the game for many years, Dean like all the Hole fans that he has influenced over the years, can not find the courage to admit that Duke has been Kerlina's equal or superior over the last 20 years.

The statement I do remember from El Deano was included in one of the books on the Duke-Kerlina rivalry (either the Chansky or Blythe books). Something to the effect that there never really was a rivalry between Duke and UNC-CH when he was the coach of the Holes. This was years after he stopped coaching in Chapel Heel. I am one True Blue fan who will never forgive him for statements like this and for the lack of class he has shown Duke Basketball over the years.

CharlestonDevil
12-29-2010, 10:15 PM
I really appreciated Coach Smith's statement regarding Coach K's 880th victory. I also though Roy's comments during the pre-game special were very kind, as well. Sometimes this rivalry brings out the worst in us, but every now and then, it brings out the best, too.

Classy remarks, but he was expected to say that.

And as respectable as K's comments on Dean were you know he couldn't stand the guy.

DukeGirl4ever
12-30-2010, 12:06 AM
I really appreciated Coach Smith's statement regarding Coach K's 880th victory. I also though Roy's comments during the pre-game special were very kind, as well. Sometimes this rivalry brings out the worst in us, but every now and then, it brings out the best, too.

I hope no one finds this offensive, but I have to ask this question in regards to Dean's health: were those comments tonight actually made by Dean himself or were they made by a spokesperson for Dean?

I know many people on here have mentioned his deteriorating health/mind, and I've had two family members go through that and it is something I hope I never have to deal with again. For those of you "in the know", would Dean be able to make a comment like that if he has dementia? (http://ncaabasketball.fanhouse.com/2010/07/17/dean-smiths-family-confirms-coachs-struggle-with-memory-loss/)


Either way, I think the comment was a nice gesture....I guess I'm just trying to figure out if he can truly understand what just happened tonight.

Lord Ash
12-30-2010, 12:19 AM
A very nice gesture, to be sure, but I also wondered if maybe it was more from the Smith family. I doubt we'll ever really know. A real shame to see anyone struggle as Dean Smith has struggled.

DukeGirl4ever
12-30-2010, 12:30 AM
A very nice gesture, to be sure, but I also wondered if maybe it was more from the Smith family. I doubt we'll ever really know. A real shame to see anyone struggle as Dean Smith has struggled.

I jumped over to IC (for some laughs) to see what they were saying and someone posted that the comment from Dean was phony, and something to the effect of " Coach Smith is passed the point that he doesn't even who K is, let alone that he broke his record".

With what I have heard, seems like it would make sense if the family released a statement from Dean. That is classy on their part if that is what happened.

-bdbd
12-30-2010, 12:49 AM
I jumped over to IC (for some laughs) to see what they were saying and someone posted that the comment from Dean was phony, and something to the effect of " Coach Smith is passed the point that he doesn't even who K is, let alone that he broke his record".

With what I have heard, seems like it would make sense if the family released a statement from Dean. That is classy on their part if that is what happened.

'hadn't been over there in a few weeks, so I peeked at IC too. Pretty amazingly sophomoric -- petty name calling, false claims of Dean's inventions or "accomplishments" (such as the 4C's - but at least one poster asked if that was really something to brag about...), and just general pettiness. Just can't imagine that tone, or all of those poorly researched posts, over at DBR. But from all of the vitriole, you can pretty clearly see that there was some obvious damage done to the collective UNC psyche tonight. To be fair, maybe one-in-a dozen actually tries to give K credit, though even then calling him by a vermin name or some such... (Sigh)



BD "Boy, most of them seem to just despise K" BD ........... :rolleyes:

throatybeard
12-30-2010, 12:58 AM
I really hope Dean has some agency in the press release re: K. I don't want to think that's a conniving AD or something. I want it to be real.

Lord Ash
12-30-2010, 01:47 AM
I really hope Dean has some agency in the press release re: K. I don't want to think that's a conniving AD or something. I want it to be real.

Agreed... the honest thoughts of a legendary guy like Dean would be treasured. But you know that regardless of who tweaked the actual released comments the sentiments would largely be the same.

Delaware
12-30-2010, 05:43 AM
A very nice gesture, to be sure, but I also wondered if maybe it was more from the Smith family. I doubt we'll ever really know. A real shame to see anyone struggle as Dean Smith has struggled.

I saw Dean's son last week at the UNC-W&M game. After our conversation, I have to believe the statement was put out by the family and/or the SID at UNC. I wish nothing but good health for Dean Smith.

Full disclosure...
1) We sold our house in Chapel Hill a number of years back to Dean's son and they are an incredibly nice family. My daughter went to middle school with his daughter.
2) I only went to the UNC-W&M game for one reason...to watch the son of another ex neighbor from the same neighborhood play for W&M. I wouldn't voluntarily go see the Heels!

DevilWearsPrada
12-30-2010, 06:15 AM
I thought the release on Dean Smith's congrats to Coach K were classy and forthcoming. I am sure, they were released by the Smith family. As I have heard also, that Dean Smith is struggling with Memory issues. I find that sad, for anyone.

All and all, the ACC has been blessed to have 2 Great Hall of Fame coachs, in Coach K and Coach Smith, with National Championships, and Great players, and most do graduate! K and Dean have each represented their universities to the upmost, with their staff and players, and represented the ACC quit well, through the years.

Although, I loathe the Tarholes, I give props, when props are due. Very classy and genuine words from the Smith family to Coach K, on his milestone 880, breaking Dean's wins.

and as always, Go Duke!!! K the Coach!!!

GODUKEGO
01-07-2011, 10:56 AM
This appeared in the Raleigh News & Observer. Not sure who Geogre Straight is (Carolina grad that can not spell). But Dean Smith as an innovator and influencer!!!

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/01/07/904253/genres-of-greatness.html

gus
01-07-2011, 12:46 PM
This appeared in the Raleigh News & Observer. Not sure who Geogre Straight is (Carolina grad that can not spell). But Dean Smith as an innovator and influencer!!!

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/01/07/904253/genres-of-greatness.html

Interestingly, "skitt" is swedish for "s&^!%" but spelled wrong.

superdave
01-07-2011, 01:33 PM
"It's not about what you've done," he said. "It's about the process and journey of what you've accomplished, the gratification you get from it, and what you learned from it. After that, it's over. And it's time for the next one. That's how you have to think."

It was not Coach K but sounds an awful lot like him.

Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmonsnfl2010/week18picks&sportCat=nfl)