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jimsumner
12-18-2010, 05:32 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5932861

No former Duke players moved but significant implications for Redick, Duhon and Grant.

Discuss.

jimsumner
12-18-2010, 05:36 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5932861

No former Duke players moved but significant implications for Redick, Duhon and Grant.

Discuss.

oops. Saw that this had been bundled into the ongoing thread. Feel free to lock.

OZZIE4DUKE
12-18-2010, 05:46 PM
oops. Saw that this had been bundled into the ongoing thread. Feel free to lock.
No! Don't lock. I'm not reading the other thread. I don't even know what thread you're talking about and I don't care to know about it and I'm not going to start reading it now. I do want to know how these trades impact Redick, Duhoh and Hill, and I'd like to read about it in its own thread. This thread.

ElSid
12-18-2010, 05:58 PM
Pretty sure whatever benefit Arenas brings to the court will be outweighed by the detriment he brings to the locker room.

And, with Richardson and Arenas joining Jameer Nelson, this team is going to be full of me-first, shoot-first point guards. I actually think Orlando will need Redick and Duhon to balance this out. Still, I don't really see it as a positive for the team or for our alumni.

Great to see Carter go. If only he had gone to a team I don't want to root.

cameroncrazy3104
12-18-2010, 06:00 PM
the magic now have 3 SG JJ Jason Richardson and Gilbert arenas

All players have different styles of play

out of the 3 JJ is the best shooter
arenas is probably the best at making his own shot
richardson i would say is the best finisher/slasher

JJ still wont start...but I dont think this will affect JJ to much
J rich could technically play the SF...which would mean more pt for JJ

if they are in desperate need of quick points JJ would probably be the best option
The team looks like this now

PG:Nelson/Duhon
SG:Arenas/JJ
SF:J Rich/Quentin Richardson
PF:Bass/Anderson
C:Howard/Earl Clark

-jk
12-18-2010, 06:09 PM
Arenas has played something like 50 games - total - in the last three seasons. Between injuries and simple boneheadedness, he's not had much of a recent track record on the court.

-jk

CameronBornAndBred
12-18-2010, 06:20 PM
No! Don't lock. I'm not reading the other thread. I don't even know what thread you're talking about and I don't care to know about it and I'm not going to start reading it now. I do want to know how these trades impact Redick, Duhoh and Hill, and I'd like to read about it in its own thread. This thread.
I'd pitchfork you for that if I could. Hard to know if it's good or bad for JJ until we see what Van Gundy does, but I see it as good for Orlando to have Turkoglu back. He can shoot. He can shoot really well. If that's good for Orlando, and it gets them back to the playoffs with a stronger team, then it's good for JJ. Having Carter gone IS good for JJ. And Orlando.

Namtilal
12-18-2010, 06:25 PM
I think JJ could learn a lot from playing with Arenas. Arenas is not the most physically talented guard, but is smart and cagey. Or, at least that's what I remember from college.

What does cagey even mean, anyway? I just know it's used to describe a basketball player who uses intelligent moves in addition to athleticism to succeed. Ah, clever is a good synonym. JJ could learn to increase his cleverosity by working with Arenas.

Ninja edit: Arenas has never shot above 37.5% from 3, and his accuracy is trending downwards.

dukebluelemur
12-18-2010, 06:34 PM
They tell JJ they love him. They pay him starter money to keep him away from the bulls. Then they bury him. Again. At least with VC his contract was due to expire and it looked like JJ might take over. Guess not. Poor JJ.

CameronBornAndBred
12-18-2010, 06:42 PM
They tell JJ they love him. They pay him starter money to keep him away from the bulls. Then they bury him. Again. At least with VC his contract was due to expire and it looked like JJ might take over. Guess not. Poor JJ.
JJ gets the start tonight. That's not surprising..but I'm not sure about the "bury him" quote. Redick has been very active lately, getting lots of minutes, even a career high. He still might come off the bench, but he'll get his minutes each night.

edit..jj starts..box score http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=301218019

House G
12-18-2010, 06:49 PM
Pretty sure whatever benefit Arenas brings to the court will be outweighed by the detriment he brings to the locker room.

And, with Richardson and Arenas joining Jameer Nelson, this team is going to be full of me-first, shoot-first point guards. I actually think Orlando will need Redick and Duhon to balance this out. Still, I don't really see it as a positive for the team or for our alumni.

Great to see Carter go. If only he had gone to a team I don't want to root.

I agree and it hasn't just been the guards. Nelson, Carter, Lewis, and now Turkoglu (again) have never seen a shot they didn't like. I am curious who will back up Howard now that Gortat is gone. I always thought he was underrated.

dukebluelemur
12-18-2010, 06:55 PM
I'm not sure about the "bury him" quote. [/URL]

I mean they traded one guy who gets a lot of SG minutes (VC) for two other guys who will get a lot of SG minutes (Arenas and Rich). I will be quite surprised if JJs minute go up the rest of the year.

Reilly
12-18-2010, 07:16 PM
...

What does cagey even mean, anyway? .....

cagey means shrewd, and also cautious, per dictionary.com

crafty means sly ...

Scheyer was described by commentators as 'crafty' (which a Jewish Duke friend would often note and joke was code and representative of historical stereotypes)

jipops
12-18-2010, 08:03 PM
"Carter and Pietrus give us a great defensive presence on the perimeter..."

Carter a defensive presence, really!!? If you are going to get a guy to boost your defensive presence, Vince is most definitely not your guy. Carter also likes take all of the air out of the ball so how exactly is this going to fly offensively? I don't see this as being good for Grant or the Suns for that matter.

SuperTurkey
12-18-2010, 08:03 PM
cagey means shrewd, and also cautious, per dictionary.com

crafty means sly ...

Scheyer was described by commentators as 'crafty' (which a Jewish Duke friend would often note and joke was code and representative of historical stereotypes)

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but I think your friend was a bit oversensitive. Crafty isn't the rarest of compliments.

Acymetric
12-18-2010, 08:08 PM
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but I think your friend was a bit oversensitive. Crafty isn't the rarest of compliments.

To be fair, he did say "joke."

Devilsfan
12-18-2010, 08:14 PM
You can call him crafty.I called him smart. Probably the most intelligent player we had in years.

SuperTurkey
12-18-2010, 08:25 PM
To be fair, he did say "joke."

Oy, to be fair, my reading comprehension is terrible. Apologies, all. :D

Verga3
12-18-2010, 08:28 PM
This certainly changes the dynamics for our guys, but I think JJ takes the only real potential hit. They now have to size up Arenas, so JJ's PT could be somewhat impacted. I actually believe that JJ will continue to be a very important factor on the floor and in the lockeroom, and that when we look at his minutes/performance at the end of the year we will not see a downturn. I think that Chris and Grant will be fine.

Hey, this is the reality in the NBA and working a job. To me, it drives home the message to our student-athletes that they should really think hard about leaving too early. College (and Duke especially) is just such a special, fun, and irrecoverable time....Thanks again, Kyle!

OZZIE4DUKE
12-18-2010, 09:12 PM
I'd pitchfork you for that if I could.
Thanks CB&B. The mods should know that I've gotten several other positive comments that are in agreement that the merging has gone way overboard and the mega-threads are extremely difficult to read and or follow. As I have mentioned previously, I tend to ignore them entirely.

BD80
12-18-2010, 09:44 PM
Desperate move by Orlando. Giving up a VERY valuable trade piece in Gortat, who would have generated substantial interest. Giving up a large voidable contract (only $4 mil of Carter's salary next year is guaranteed). Taking on two huge contracts for players that are NOT as good as when they signed their deals. The Magic REFUSED to give Hedo the same money a year and a half ago. Agent ZERO, huge risk, but dumping Rashard Lewis almost makes the Arenas risk worth it. JRich is the only worthwhile piece - but he is an expiring contract.

The Suns made a great deal, assuming they dump Vince-anity next year. Dump a big salary, get a starting center, improve the defense, add a draft pick (which they will sell) and get money.

Wonder what the Pistons would have given to get a starting center? Dumars has been way too quiet in the market. Wonder if that is because of the pending sale.

Its fun to see Billy King back in the market, the Nets made a couple of good moves to position themselves in the Melo market (although I think bringing Melo to the "distractions" of the east coast is a bad idea).

mkirsh
12-18-2010, 10:30 PM
I wonder if the magic are done making moves or not. With arenas and hedo they have added two players who need to handle the ball a lot - do they still need an undersized pg or will they try to move nelson for more front court depth?

DevilHorns
12-18-2010, 10:37 PM
You can call him crafty.I called him smart. Probably the most intelligent player we had in years.

Makes me think of this: "Those are plays that you think of Magic Johnson making" - Coach K (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXAh6q-swKE&NR=1)



Pretty sure whatever benefit Arenas brings to the court will be outweighed by the detriment he brings to the locker room.

And, with Richardson and Arenas joining Jameer Nelson, this team is going to be full of me-first, shoot-first point guards. I actually think Orlando will need Redick and Duhon to balance this out. Still, I don't really see it as a positive for the team or for our alumni.

Great to see Carter go. If only he had gone to a team I don't want to root.

My first thought as well. Add in Hedo, who frankly never passes JJ the ball... eh. This team has scorers.. but they may be more willing to take tough shots than look for the open man. I think this team looks good on paper, but they may not have the parts to actually make good decisions as a team with the ball. I'm expecting their team assists to drop somewhat.

Rudy
12-18-2010, 10:57 PM
Gilbert won't be a locker room problem, IMO. He's a prankster but seems to have been chastened by the league's and the public's reaction to the gun shenanigans. I don't see anything like that repeating. He's motivated now to prove he can still be an impact player. He's been playing pretty well this year on a bad team. Sometimes in DC over the past few years, even with Butler and Jamison around, he would try to do too much on his own and everyone else stood around watching him. That's the negative part of his game that will be a negative in Orlando, which already has too much of that attitude, as others have said.

-bdbd
12-19-2010, 12:10 AM
Gilbert won't be a locker room problem, IMO. He's a prankster but seems to have been chastened by the league's and the public's reaction to the gun shenanigans. I don't see anything like that repeating. He's motivated now to prove he can still be an impact player. He's been playing pretty well this year on a bad team. Sometimes in DC over the past few years, even with Butler and Jamison around, he would try to do too much on his own and everyone else stood around watching him. That's the negative part of his game that will be a negative in Orlando, which already has too much of that attitude, as others have said.

I agree. Being in DC you repeatedly hear that Gilbert "has a good heart," but he just seems prone to boneheaded moves. Read "immature." By most accounts the gun stupidity was really intended just as a prank. Dumb. He also shot himself in the foot, figuratively, during the preseason this year by faking an injury so that a young teammate (who'd been complaining about a lack of playing time) got to start/play in a meaningless preseason game. Not an unheard of or even mean-spirited thought, but certainly boneheaded to then admit it to the Press after the game. I think Gilbert will really benefit from the change of scenery and a relatively fresh start, and his mentor relationship with the Orlando GM. But most of his teammates have said they really like him. Hopefully this all matures him some.

But I struggle to see how this helps JJ at all (especially heading into next season when VC was going to be gone anyway). More demand for minutes at the 2-spot in ORL As for Grant, didn't he re-sign in Phoenix for less in order to stay and help to develop the young talent? That young talent seems to be leaving... 'hope he makes the All-Star team and gets to close out a solid career well there.

:confused:

CharlestonDevil
12-19-2010, 12:30 AM
Mark my words, JJ will end up going to another team because of this trade.

Even if he performs (up to the the level they are paying him with the new contract) making this type of trade only reduces the value of his PT and what they are paying him for.

If they really felt his value was high enough to pay him like they did, and then to give him starter minutes, why trade to aquire more players at his position. I have complete confidence in JJ but this shows the management is
A) not completely confident in his abilities or
B) able and willing to make a deal for him in order to aquire someone else (i.e. he is expendable. but that is business in the NBA)

pamtar
12-19-2010, 08:02 AM
Mark my words, JJ will end up going to another team because of this trade.

I agree with you here. Why acquire an aging Turk if they were'nt expecting him to fill at least part of JJ's role. JJ is basically in the same position he was two years ago. Luckily, he now has more money and a better resume.

The Phoenix trade leaves Orlando short at center - but to dump Carter it was worth it. I wouldn't be surprised if they trade JJ for a large PF or C within the next month.

ice-9
12-19-2010, 09:23 AM
IMO one of Arenas, Richardson and JJ are going to be traded. The Magic just have too many SGs, too many shooters whereas what they need are post players to back the 4 and 5 positions. I think Hedo stays because of his length and ability to guard the three.

Richardson is likely the easiest to trade (especially with his expiring contract), but he is also probably the most valuable.

Magic is gambling with Arenas. If he plays like he did before the gun incident, they look like geniuses. If Arenas doesn't improve, then what they have is a decent rotation player with either Richardson or JJ. Plus no team is likely to take Arenas' enormous contract and uneven reputation.

I think if they can get a serviceable post player for JJ, he's gone. Otherwise it'll most likely be Richardson.

Of course, in a worst case scenario where they can't get good value for either JJ or Richardson, Van Gundy might still be able to make this overstuffed perimeter work but it'll be a case of less than the sum of its parts.

AlaskanAssassin
12-19-2010, 10:28 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if they trade JJ for a large PF or C within the next month.


JJ for Taj Gibson of the Bulls? Anyone seeing that happen?

theAlaskanBear
12-19-2010, 10:37 AM
JJ for Taj Gibson of the Bulls? Anyone seeing that happen?

Definitely not with Joakim Noah out for the next 8-10 weeks. Gibson & Omer Asik have to play C in his absence.

jimsumner
12-19-2010, 11:02 AM
JJ for Taj Gibson of the Bulls? Anyone seeing that happen?

Chicago wanted J.J. to fill a role. When they couldn't get him they signed Kyle Korver to fill that role. So, I'm not sure the interest level would be as high now as it was last summer.

darthur
12-19-2010, 11:19 AM
People keep saying here that Gilbert Arenas is a shooting guard, but he is listed as a point guard and gets a decent number of assists. I think Duhon takes the PT hit more than Redick does.

RoyalBlue08
12-19-2010, 11:46 AM
People keep saying here that Gilbert Arenas is a shooting guard, but he is listed as a point guard and gets a decent number of assists. I think Duhon takes the PT hit more than Redick does.

I think the Magic said the Nelson is still starting, which means you have to play Arenas at the two. It may be that the split the PG duties a bit during the rotations and Duhon's minutes also take a hit, but I think JJ is going to be stuck for minutes given this trade, and when he is on the floor he is going to be playing with a bunch of shoot first guys. I hate this trade for JJ!

_Gary
12-19-2010, 12:17 PM
I think the Magic said the Nelson is still starting, which means you have to play Arenas at the two. It may be that the split the PG duties a bit during the rotations and Duhon's minutes also take a hit, but I think JJ is going to be stuck for minutes given this trade, and when he is on the floor he is going to be playing with a bunch of shoot first guys. I hate this trade for JJ!

Agreed. This trade stinks for both JJ and Chris. Nothing good for either of them will come of this, unless it's that one or both get traded. But minutes will absolutely go down for both given the players that are coming in. You can mark that down too! :mad:

darthur
12-19-2010, 12:25 PM
I think the Magic said the Nelson is still starting, which means you have to play Arenas at the two. It may be that the split the PG duties a bit during the rotations and Duhon's minutes also take a hit, but I think JJ is going to be stuck for minutes given this trade, and when he is on the floor he is going to be playing with a bunch of shoot first guys. I hate this trade for JJ!

No, it means Arenas will be the backup point guard. Jason Richardson will be the starting 2.

Starting shooting guard: Jason Richardson
Backup shooting guard: JJ

Starting point guard: Nelson
Backup point guard: Arenas

Guy who loses the most minutes: Duhon

jimsumner
12-19-2010, 01:15 PM
No, it means Arenas will be the backup point guard. Jason Richardson will be the starting 2.

Starting shooting guard: Jason Richardson
Backup shooting guard: JJ

Starting point guard: Nelson
Backup point guard: Arenas

Guy who loses the most minutes: Duhon

You may well be right. But if Arenas is only going to be getting back-up minutes at point, then some big chemistry issues could follow in short order.

RoyalBlue08
12-19-2010, 02:38 PM
That's also a insane amount of money to be paying a backup PG. I would be very surprised if Arenas doesn't start.


No, it means Arenas will be the backup point guard. Jason Richardson will be the starting 2.

Starting shooting guard: Jason Richardson
Backup shooting guard: JJ

Starting point guard: Nelson
Backup point guard: Arenas

Guy who loses the most minutes: Duhon

darthur
12-19-2010, 03:54 PM
That's also a insane amount of money to be paying a backup PG. I would be very surprised if Arenas doesn't start.

It sure is a lot of money, and I think it was a terrible trade for that reason :p.

But someone has to not start:

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/orlando.htm

And I don't think anyone would argue Arenas has been out-playing Richardson or Nelson recently.

theAlaskanBear
12-19-2010, 04:08 PM
It sure is a lot of money, and I think it was a terrible trade for that reason :p.

But someone has to not start:

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/orlando.htm

And I don't think anyone would argue Arenas has been out-playing Richardson or Nelson recently.

I disagree with you. The most probably starting lineup will be Nelson PG, Arenas SG, Richardson SF, Bass/Turk PF, Howard C. But This is the Magic and we know Otis Smith and SVG like to mix up the lineups...so what we will see is Arenas and Nelson splitting time at the PG, with Arenas getting a lot of time SG. Richardson will split time at SG and at SF. Turkoglu will split time at the SF and PF. Bass will split time at the PF and C. Howard will play C.

I still think there may be more trades coming, but thats a very deep, dangerous team. Defense may suffer until they all adjust to a new system, but Arenas and JRich are more athletic than VC and Lewis (at this stage in their careers). Turk is long but has a rep for bad D. I mean its not like the current Magic team will blow anyones defensive socks off so I think its a wash but a big upgrade on offense and depth.

There may be more trades coming but there is no way Arenas will only play backup PG. He will get a lot of minutes as off-guard (think J Crawford as the "super-sixth" in ATL) even if they do start JRich at SG and play Turk at SF

hq2
12-19-2010, 04:32 PM
Let's look at all this another way. G Hill is one of our favorite Duke players of all time.
He's playing on a team which is a borderline playoff team. Now with Gortat and (maybe) Vince, he can close out his career on a better team that may do something in the playoffs. And, make no mistake about it, Gortat is a pretty good (and very underrated) center. He has decent hops, a jump shot, can rebound O.K., hit free throws and play adequate defense. IMHO, without Rashard Lewis's contract, he would have been a starter. This will help the Suns and G Hill enormously.

basket1544
12-19-2010, 04:43 PM
Truth or not, no one wants to say that Vince is going to help the Suns win more. Gortat will definitely help the Suns though. I watched the Suns play against the Mavs a couple of nights ago and after Nash went down the Suns really didn't have a chance. They played a variety of line ups that all included 3 or 4 wing players at the same time. They seemed to have too many of the same built players (somewhere between 6'7" and 6'9" small or power forwards) and Turk was never getting playing time on that bench. Now they've given themselves some variety and should be better suited to fight in the Western Conference.
Meanwhile the Magic gave up 1 guard and got 2 in return in JRich and Arenas. I'm kinda worried about the fact that they now have 4 point guards (Duhon's playing time is going to be very shaky) and only 1 true center, but that one center is Superman. We shall see what more changes will come.

hq2
12-19-2010, 04:50 PM
Might want to consider a trade with Boston. Once Perk gets back, the C's (may) have a surplus of bigs, but they need help in the backcourt. I'm sure they'd consider parting with (injury prone) Jermaine O' Neal for a good backup PG.

darthur
12-19-2010, 09:37 PM
I disagree with you. The most probably starting lineup will be Nelson PG, Arenas SG, Richardson SF, Bass/Turk PF, Howard C. But This is the Magic and we know Otis Smith and SVG like to mix up the lineups...so what we will see is Arenas and Nelson splitting time at the PG, with Arenas getting a lot of time SG. Richardson will split time at SG and at SF. Turkoglu will split time at the SF and PF. Bass will split time at the PF and C. Howard will play C.

You may be right. And if Arenas comes back to '06 form, I'm sure they'll find a way to let him start.

But as I understand it, the trade for Arenas was made over SVG's objections, Nelson/Arenas/Richardson/Turk is not a good defensive lineup (and the people who think NBA coaches don't care about defense are the people who don't actually watch the NBA on a regular basis), and putting your superstar on the floor with 4 me-first scorers is not your normal recipe for success.

BD80
12-19-2010, 11:47 PM
You may be right. And if Arenas comes back to '06 form, I'm sure they'll find a way to let him start.

But as I understand it, the trade for Arenas was made over SVG's objections, Nelson/Arenas/Richardson/Turk is not a good defensive lineup (and the people who think NBA coaches don't care about defense are the people who don't actually watch the NBA on a regular basis), and putting your superstar on the floor with 4 me-first scorers is not your normal recipe for success.

Actually, I can see Arenas getting quite a few steals, ... of passes intended for Turk.

theAlaskanBear
01-09-2011, 01:07 PM
I wanted somewhere to post about Hedo Turkoglu's 17 assists (!!!) last night. The Otis Smith experiment looks good so far. Last night every player that entered the game scored at least 9 points, and 5 of 6 players taking threes hit at least 2 (JJ had the poor 3-pt %). This team has tremendous balance -- if I were a coach trying to game plan I don't know who I would focus on stopping...even games where Howard doesn't score they win. They have now beaten 3 of the top teams in the league (SAS, DAL, BOS...I guess you can throw NYK in there too.

Granted, the season is still young, and as teams adjust to this new lineup Orlando may struggle at some point. It will be interesting to see where they end the season re: home court advantage. Also will be interesting how Miami will do against the new-look Orlando.