Texas 78 unc 76 [Archive]

SilkyJ

12-18-2010, 04:34 PM

UNC's got Zeller and that's about it. No one else on that team looks like they are really any good.

Its weird to think that guys like McDonald and Barnes were on our radar and highly coveted, and now they look like run of the mill ACC starters. I can't imagine all the talent evaluators AND our own staff had it all wrong this whole time. Daggumit, there must be another explanation;)

Texas also OWNING UNC on the boards, particularly the O-boards. I also don't see any camaraderie on this team. Zeller, their best player, hits the floor fighting for the board, its a TV timeout and the other four UNC players start walking to the bench and Zeller helps himself up.

I don't say this to pile on Roy "just cause," but I truly believe this is on Roy, and he should be doing a better job with this talent.

OZZIE4DUKE

12-18-2010, 04:39 PM

Let's Go Texas! :cool:

oldnavy

12-18-2010, 04:41 PM

BlueHeaven

12-18-2010, 04:47 PM

I'm a huge Texas fan today. A Carolina loss would improve the dreary rainy day outside!

Duvall

12-18-2010, 05:03 PM

UNC's got Zeller and that's about it.

Don't forget about Karl Hess. Player of the game so far.

SilkyJ

12-18-2010, 05:19 PM

^Zing!

Texas went cold for the last 7 minutes of the half, turned the ball over, and let carolina back into it.

I don't think I've seen UNC take one 3-point shot...

check that: they're 0-3

devildeac

12-18-2010, 05:22 PM

Don't forget about Karl Hess. Player of the game so far.

I just caught the half-time stats and saw Texas with 15 team fouls! WTH? Looks like they are on the way to fouling out about 4 players, just like ky did when they played on the 'heels "real" home court.

Wonder if Dean Smith is in attendance, just so he can re-live the "good times" he and Rick Barnes had. :rolleyes:

Merlindevildog91

12-18-2010, 05:29 PM

I just caught the half-time stats and saw Texas with 15 team fouls! WTH? Looks like they are on the way to fouling out about 4 players, just like ky did when they played on the 'heels "real" home court.

Wonder if Dean Smith is in attendance, just so he can re-live the "good times" he and Rick Barnes had. :rolleyes:

I doubt Dean Smith even remembers Rick Barnes at this point in his life. I'm no fan of Dean, but I wouldn't wish his problems on anyone.

Too bad Karl Hess can't trade brains with Dean. If Karl Hess had any mental difficulties, we wouldn't know the difference.

yancem

12-18-2010, 05:51 PM

I don't see them going 7-1 in conference. This is the same team that already has three L's including Vandy and Sota.

A couple of weeks ago I would have agreed with you but a win against KY followed by a win against Texas could give them a lot of confidence. Their season is long from over and turnaround is still very possible.

This game could go a long way in determining if unc is a solid ncaa team or a NIT team. Momentum is a tricky thing!

Indoor66

12-18-2010, 06:00 PM

What's up with Roy? He has called 2 time outs during the game!

Merlindevildog91

12-18-2010, 06:13 PM

What's up with Roy? He has called 2 time outs during the game!

Now he's called 4! I nearly passed out on the second, three and four were just beyond the scope.

arnie

12-18-2010, 06:15 PM

What's up with Roy? He has called 2 time outs during the game!

Nothing could be sweeter, except 82-50 - particularly when they mention Hill to Laettner during the last second!

Indoor66

12-18-2010, 06:17 PM

Great win by Texas. That was maybe the best coaching job I have seen by Barnes. Roy was his usual self! :D

devildeac

12-18-2010, 06:19 PM

Now he's called 4! I nearly passed out on the second, three and four were just beyond the scope.

He won't be able to use that "time-outs not used" banner now at the dump:rolleyes:.

devildeac

12-18-2010, 06:21 PM

Nothing could be sweeter, except 82-50 - particularly when they mention Hill to Laettner during the last second!

I noticed on the 1st in-bounds play, Texas did not guard the in-bounds guy and Roy "wasted" a TO. Then, Barnes had the in-bounds guy guarded. "Genius" coaching:rolleyes:.

RoyalBlue08

12-18-2010, 06:22 PM

Great win by Texas. That was maybe the best coaching job I have seen by Barnes. Roy was his usual self! :D

I'm assuming this isn't really a compliment.

CameronBornAndBred

12-18-2010, 06:24 PM

1790

Hook 'Em Horns, GTHC!! (From the photo archives of Brunchgate http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/4.gif (http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/posting.php?mode=post&f=3#))

BattierBattalion

12-18-2010, 06:30 PM

hurley1

12-18-2010, 06:55 PM

i was not impressed with either team.......neither wants anything to do with duke......

sagegrouse

12-18-2010, 06:56 PM

Nothing could be sweeter, except 82-50 - particularly when they mention Hill to Laettner during the last second!

Vern Lundquist, who did the game today, was also the announcer for "The Shot" 19 years ago.

sagegrouse

Merlindevildog91

12-18-2010, 07:36 PM

I admit that my best game of basketball was eons ago, and I haven't coached, but if I were down at the end of a game and throwing the ball in from side court, I wouldn't have my best player throwing the ball in, unless there's enough time that he can get the ball back and sink the winning/tying shot, a la Christian Laettner in 1990.

Ol' Roy had Zeller on the throw-in at side court. What sense did that make? Have him underneath. With the refereeing crew at that game, there was a very real chance that anyone who tried to stop Zeller from getting open would have gotten called for a foul. So the only person who could stop Zeller from moving was...Ol' Roy.

Jeff0r3

12-18-2010, 07:36 PM

I have to say that I came away impressed with Carolina. I thought after the Illinois game, they basically quit on the season. They've made progress since.

I have to agree with you. They've definitely made progress... I think they can be dangerous if all cylinders are clicking. I didn't get a chance to see the whole game, but am kind of wondering why they stayed in the game at all with the Longhorns. I just don't like it one bit...

-jk

12-18-2010, 07:42 PM

jimsumner

12-18-2010, 07:44 PM

I noticed on the 1st in-bounds play, Texas did not guard the in-bounds guy and Roy "wasted" a TO. Then, Barnes had the in-bounds guy guarded. "Genius" coaching:rolleyes:.

Perhaps Williams wanted Zeller guarded. Zeller ran the baseline, a screen was set for him, the defender ran into the screener and the screener went down like he had been hit with a point-blank round from a bazooka.

No call.

Dean Smith tried the same play in the same situation in the 1975 NCAA Tournament, with Syracuse leading Carolina 78-76. Didn't get the call then.

Not sure if Carolina ever got that call. But it seems to still be in the playbook.

Not sure why. No official is going to call a dead-ball, running-into-the screen-foul 94 feet from the basket, with the game on the line.

cptnflash

12-18-2010, 07:44 PM

I have to say that I came away impressed with Carolina. I thought after the Illinois game, they basically quit on the season. They've made progress since.

Positives (or negatives if you're a Duke fun): They've figured out how to use Dexter Strickland. He's not going to run the offense, but he's like a faster, worse-shooting, worse-defending Nolan Smith. He's at his best when going for his own shots and is deadly on the open floor. Zeller is the best big in the ACC. I like Zeller's game more than Hansbrough's. Zeller is almost as efficient at scoring and will actually make great passes from double teams rather than forcing terrible shots.

And of course I have to mention the negative. Carolina still has a long way to go on D especially on the perimeter. There's no communication. The pick and roll murdered them. Barnes still has a tendency to drift away from the action and let things come to him. He needs to be more assertive.

I agree with you about Zeller. We will have our hands full with him. Luckily Henson is close to useless offensively, except on the glass or when someone gets him the ball one foot from the basket (kind of like Miles, except Henson rebounds... ok I'm kidding about that... a little).

I'll be interested to see whether Kendall Marshall starts the next game. He started in the 2nd half today, I believe for the first time all year. LDII is awful and the Heels have consistently done better offensively with Marshall running the show. Maybe Roy Williams has finally noticed what everyone else has seen from day one.

One last observation: is it possible that Barnes is actually not that good of a shooter? I imagine he got layups at will in high school so his numbers probably didn't reflect his true shooting ability. Other than that late 3 that almost pulled it out for them, he shot poorly from outside today and has done so more or less all season. When he struggled early this year I figured it was just sample size, but I'm starting to reconsider.

Overall, I'm very glad Texas pulled it out, but I still think there's a good chance the Heels get out to a cosmetically impressive start in the ACC. Their league schedule is very heavily back-loaded in terms of difficulty. Even Pomeroy has them favored in their first six ACC games, although not by wide margins in a couple cases. But the losses will mount in the back half unless something changes drastically.

ricks68

12-18-2010, 07:47 PM

jimsumner

12-18-2010, 08:05 PM

I am certainly no rules expert, but shouldn't that move by the UNC player during the initial last 1.4 second inbounds play have been called a moving screen when he moved along the baseline continously getting in the way after he had set for a screen of the Texas defender? Since I am not familiar with that kind of ruling, can someone help me out on this?

ricks

I think the moving part came in large part because the screener started falling down before contact. His job wasn't to set a screen as much as draw a foul.

Given that Butler wasn't called for an even more flagrant moving screen before Hayward's half-court shot at the end of the title game, I don't think the officials were likely to blow the whistle either way.

hurley1

12-18-2010, 08:10 PM

I have to agree with you. They've definitely made progress... I think they can be dangerous if all cylinders are clicking. I didn't get a chance to see the whole game, but am kind of wondering why they stayed in the game at all with the Longhorns. I just don't like it one bit...

apparently i missed something.........they didn't impress me at all......duke will eat them up if they play like they did today........

RoyalBlue08

12-18-2010, 08:36 PM

Merlindevildog91

12-18-2010, 08:42 PM

I wonder if Carolina is counting moral victories these days?

I am also wondering how they decide on their rotations down there. I think i noticed Watts and Knox playing crunch time minutes down the stretch (as UNC was blowing their lead). Perhaps they have embarrassing pictures of Ole Roy?

A good question, but Ol' Roy won't play Henson down the stretch due to his woeful performance at the foul line. I personally would have had him throwing the ball in on the side court play and had Zeller as an option for the shot, rather than the throw-in guy, but maybe that's beyond Henson's capabilities.

Btw, husb is reading IC and the sky is definitely falling, and (to mix metaphors) Ol' Roy is being thrown under the bus for not having viable options on the last shot, leaving Marshall out and having Drew in down the stretch, and other things I've forgotten.

oldnavy

12-18-2010, 08:46 PM

I think Roy coached a decent game today. He used his timeouts to influence the tempo and momentum of the game and he had a pretty good end of game plan. I think I would have had Zeller under the basket rather than throwing in the ball. He could have used Henson for the sideline inbound pass if he wanted a big to inbound the ball.

I am still not feeling the heels. Texas is not that great of a team and they actually played a pretty bad game and still beat the heels in what basically was a home court game. UNC let Long Beach State put 90+ points on the board against them, and the only really quality win they have is against Kentucky. I think they will be further exposed in the ACC.

jipops

12-18-2010, 08:56 PM

and the first six game stretch of their ACC schedule is ridiculously easy.

It would be a mistake for them to sleep on UVA in Charlottesville, VA Tech despite the struggles does have the edge in experience, and Miami could cause them some problems. The 2nd half of their ACC sched could be more interesting - us twice, Maryland at home, FSU away, State away.

roywhite

12-18-2010, 09:45 PM

Perhaps Williams wanted Zeller guarded. Zeller ran the baseline, a screen was set for him, the defender ran into the screener and the screener went down like he had been hit with a point-blank round from a bazooka.

No call.

Dean Smith tried the same play in the same situation in the 1975 NCAA Tournament, with Syracuse leading Carolina 78-76. Didn't get the call then.

Not sure if Carolina ever got that call. But it seems to still be in the playbook.

Not sure why. No official is going to call a dead-ball, running-into-the screen-foul 94 feet from the basket, with the game on the line.

If Karl Hess wouldn't call it today, I guess no official would.

Ole Roy had to be pleased with Old Karl up to that point.

roywhite

12-18-2010, 09:55 PM

One last observation: is it possible that Barnes is actually not that good of a shooter? I imagine he got layups at will in high school so his numbers probably didn't reflect his true shooting ability. Other than that late 3 that almost pulled it out for them, he shot poorly from outside today and has done so more or less all season. When he struggled early this year I figured it was just sample size, but I'm starting to reconsider.

Through 11 games, HB is shooting 35% from the field and 29% from 3-pt.

After a while, the numbers tell a story.

dukestheheat

12-18-2010, 09:57 PM

I have to agree with you. They've definitely made progress... I think they can be dangerous if all cylinders are clicking. I didn't get a chance to see the whole game, but am kind of wondering why they stayed in the game at all with the Longhorns. I just don't like it one bit...

a lot better than I thought they'd look. They are very fast in transition; they pound the boards and seem to have a push for an inside game (or at least they did today), which presents a challenge for us.

dth.

bob blue devil

12-18-2010, 10:27 PM

i feel a little bad piling onto an 18 y.o., but whatever, I'll get over it :rolleyes:. As in the prior couple of UNC games I've seen, I was struck during the Texas game by how often Barnes was pulling the trigger and what a low rate the ball actually wound up in the basket. Decided to rip some of KenPom's numbers on the subject - of the ACC players that play > 40% of their team's minutes, below find effective FG percentages (effective FG% is like regular FG%, but appropriately gives you extra credit for made 3's) ranked lowest to highest. Barnes is 2nd worst and, to top it off, if you run the same numbers for % of his team's shots taken he ranks 8th highest. Early in the season I was amused by the struggles but assumed he would figure things out; now, however, we're over 1/4 done with the season already - i'm starting to put non-trivial odds on the possibility he's a bust.

Player Effective FG%
1 Iman Shumpert 39.7
2 Harrison Barnes 40.2
3 Joe Trapani 40.5
4 Larry Drew 40.7
5 Sean Mosley 41.7
6 Maurice Miller 42.1
7 Ryan Harrow 42.6
8 Dorenzo Hudson 42.6
9 Jontel Evans 42.6
10 Milton Jennings 42.9
11 Tanner Smith 43.5
12 Ty Walker 43.6
13 Carson Desrosiers 44.7
14 Jeff Allen 45.6
15 DeShawn Painter 45.7
16 Lorenzo Brown 45.9
17 C.J. Leslie 46
18 Xavier Gibson 47.1
19 Mfon Udofia 47.2
20 Brian Oliver 47.5
21 J.T. Terrell 47.8
22 Chris Singleton 48.4
23 Michael Snaer 48.5
24 Mike Scott 49
25 Garrius Adams 49
26 Demontez Stitt 49.5
27 Malcolm Grant 50
28 Devin Booker 50
29 Dino Gregory 50
30 Dexter Strickland 50
31 Cliff Tucker 50.5
32 Tyler Zeller 50.9
33 Seth Curry 50.9
34 Durand Scott 51.2
35 Daniel Miller 51.4
36 Ari Stewart 51.5
37 Terrell Stoglin 51.6
38 K.T. Harrell 51.8
39 Pe'Shon Howard 52.4
40 John Henson 52.9
41 Andre Young 53.1
42 Kyle Singler 53.7
43 Mustapha Farrakhan 53.7
44 Nolan Smith 53.9
45 Javier Gonzalez 54.3
46 Derwin Kitchen 54.8
47 Glen Rice 55
48 Miles Plumlee 55
49 Adrian Thomas 55.1
50 Terrell Bell 55.2
51 Travis McKie 55.3
52 Adrian Bowie 56.3
53 Jerai Grant 56.6
54 Biko Paris 57.1
55 Victor Davila 57.5
56 Richard Howell 57.8
57 Malcolm Delaney 57.9
58 Mason Plumlee 58.7
59 Jordan Williams 58.8
60 Reggie Johnson 59.7
61 Reggie Jackson 60.2
62 Justin Knox 60.5
63 Deividas Dulkys 60.6
64 C.J. Harris 61.2
65 Kyrie Irving 62.3
66 Corey Raji 62.7
67 Bernard James 62.8
68 Joe Harris 63
69 Scott Wood 63.4
70 Danny Rubin 66.7
71 Will Sherrill 68.8
72 Josh Southern 68.8
73 Gary Clark 72.2
74 Andre Dawkins 75.7

<edit:his actual stats for the Texas game are decent - must've went to the bathroom for his good stints...>

4decadedukie

12-18-2010, 10:32 PM

Our oldest daughter is a UT Austin alum (her husband is a Duke alumnus); they (and two of our grandchildren) have happily lived in Austin for almost a decade. This victory, therefore, is especially pleasing: our pleasure in a Long Horn victory combined with the always-joyful event of a Tar Heel loss.

jdj4duke

12-18-2010, 11:29 PM

Had fun with my daughter who is a UT freshman today watching the game, and she is looking forwatd to seeing her UNC-affiliated cousins, aunts and uncles next week when she will mention not a word of today's game.

All in all, shaping up to be a "blue blue Christmas" for the Heels, with a loss to their personal Darth Vader Barnes to be followed up by K catching Dean next week (unless there is a transdimensional tear in the universe). Happy Holidays!

shoutingncu

12-19-2010, 12:05 AM

Early in the first half when Texas was up close to ten, I texted my Burnt Orange cousins saying that the score was actually 16 - 10, Heels over Texas's put-back dunks. The Horns would have been competitive on offensive rebounds alone...

I said it at the beginning of the season, Zeller has to stay on the floor. We may not win today had he not picked up his fourth foul, but his presence improves the entire team.

Don't give up on Barnes yet (Harrison, not Rick... I still believe that Carolina is only team of significance Rick Barnes can beat)... HB had a couple aggressive drives to the basket. If he looks to get to the rim more, I imagine his numbers will improve.

Still... it would have been nice to exorcise the loss from last year.

hurley1

12-19-2010, 12:38 AM

slower

12-19-2010, 08:29 AM

but the Holes may not be as bad as we all hoped they would be.

roywhite

12-19-2010, 08:40 AM

but the Holes may not be as bad as we all hoped they would be.

This was a preseason #8 team that lost in Greensboro to #22 ranked Texas. The Heels have a roster full of McD All-Americans including 1st team preseason A-A Harrison Barnes and are led by a championship winning coach.

They may be exceeding someone's expectations, but they're underachieving according to the preseason consensus.

DevilHorns

12-19-2010, 08:52 AM

Zeller is their best weapon right now.......let me ask a question....how would you like to take on duke if your best weapon was Zeller ???.......:D.......i am really looking forward to this game in Feb........

Zeller could be the best player on a whole lot of good teams. He is very solid, IMO.

moonpie23

12-19-2010, 10:44 AM

but the Holes may not be as bad as we all hoped they would be.

they are not "taken aback" by losing as much this year.....it's not new to them...

CEF1959

12-19-2010, 11:07 AM

Zeller could be the best player on a whole lot of good teams. He is very solid, IMO.

+1. I really like Zeller's game. Every time I see him play this year, I find myself thinking, "Damn, that guy would fit well into the Duke system."

magjayran

12-19-2010, 11:15 AM

Zeller is their best weapon right now.......let me ask a question....how would you like to take on duke if your best weapon was Zeller ???.......:D.......i am really looking forward to this game in Feb........

The problem isn't that their best player is Zeller. The problem is the drop-off after Zeller. I don't see a consistent second option or really much consistency at all after him.

cptnflash

12-19-2010, 11:15 AM

+1. I really like Zeller's game. Every time I see him play this year, I find myself thinking, "Damn, that guy would fit well into the Duke system."

Amen, I would trade either Plumlee for Zeller straight up. Might even throw in the second one.

Devilsfan

12-19-2010, 11:25 AM

There are no moral victories. A "L" is a "L". Vince Lombardi put it best when he said,"Winning isn't everything, it's the ONLY thing". This isn't the Y league where we pass out participation trophies. Roy you just lost another one to go with your 20 L's from last year. And at $2Mill at year to boot.

CameronBornAndBred

12-19-2010, 11:35 AM

The problem isn't that their best player is Zeller. The problem is the drop-off after Zeller. I don't see a consistent second option or really much consistency at all after him.
It's still early in the year, and one thing they may have going for them is Zeller. If he steps up as the leader they were lacking last year, by tourney time they could be a dangerous team. Right now, I don't see Zeller in that leader role yet, but it's his to fill. If he brings the others with him, they will be more of a team, and that second option will be more evident. Right now, I don't know who that is either, but he might not be far from making himself known.

davekay1971

12-19-2010, 11:36 AM

Amen, I would trade either Plumlee for Zeller straight up. Might even throw in the second one.

I wouldn't trade either Plumlee for Zeller. Not that Zeller isn't being more productive than either of those guys, I just, on principle, would never trade one of our guys for a Tarhole. Once that sickly shade of light blue has touched a player's skin, they are, as Don Michael Corleone would say, "dead to me."

In all seriousness, Zeller is a very impressive player, and we're all just now getting to see what he can do when he's healthy. I also like the way he goes about his job with a steadiness regardless of the score, and the way he doesn't showboat. Basically, if he weren't wearing that shade of blue, I'd like him as a player. But he does, so I don't.

Our Plumli, on the other hand, are fitting quite well within our system. They're giving us good defense, good rebounding, and a viable post presence on offense. I would love to see Mason fill his potential and go from a viable post presence on offense to being an offensive weapon. But, for the moment, I'm good with what we've got at the 4-5.

Carolina is developing one of the better frontcourts around. Still thin, but quite respectable. If they could ever get consistent performance from their perimeter, they might be dangerous. What they are right now is right where they are in the polls: others receiving votes. Somewhere in the range of the 30th-50th best team in the nation.

pfrduke

12-19-2010, 11:57 AM

I'll be interested to see whether Kendall Marshall starts the next game. He started in the 2nd half today, I believe for the first time all year. LDII is awful and the Heels have consistently done better offensively with Marshall running the show. Maybe Roy Williams has finally noticed what everyone else has seen from day one.

Drew still started the 2nd half, but Marshall came in almost right away (although that may, in part, have been because Drew picked up his 3rd foul in the opening minutes of the 2nd half). But just adding fuel to the Marshall-should-start argument, yesterday the team was +7 when Marshall was running the point, and -9 when Drew was running the point. Carolina scored more points (39) in Marshall's 15 minutes than in Drew's 25 minutes.

rsvman

12-19-2010, 12:08 PM

Zeller is pretty good, if you ask me. He looks a bit like "Hansbrough Lite," though, at this point. He's beginning to work on the walking move, but doesn't have it down quite as well as Hansbrough did. He doesn't flop enough. The refs don't call a foul every time he misses a shot, so that makes the comparison a little unfair.

Oh, and for some reason, the announcers don't spend the entire game telling us that Zeller works harder than anybody in the known universe.

I guess he's got a ways to go before he becomes Hansbrough.

gumbomoop

12-19-2010, 01:45 PM

Don't give up on Barnes yet (Harrison, not Rick).... HB had a couple aggressive drives to the basket. If he looks to get to the rim more, I imagine his numbers will improve.

I agree with you about Barnes getting to the rim. Easier said than done, as his handle isn't good enough to do this as easily as it must have been in HS. But he does need to do this a lot more. I haven't given up on Barnes at all, and still think he's going to be very good. However, I was maybe the very last person to see how lousy were the Heels last year, so maybe my take on the Heels is untrustworthy. I sure don't trust me.

Which doesn't mean I got nothing to say. I attended the game yesterday, along with thousands of Carolina Blues and a smattering of Longhorn fans. I had a decent seat, but not the midcourt view of TV, so I missed some stuff the rest of you saw, and maybe saw one or 2 things you didn't.

For example: Barnes is an interesting study. He spent some noticeable time - in this case, maybe intentionally so - doing his own special warmup for part of the pregame. By himself, with ball, up and down the court, doing different stretching drill, near sideline, for a few minutes. Because I almost never see any games in person, I've no idea whether many players have their special drills pregame. But Barnes seems to want to be seen as different. Maybe I'm making too much of this, I don't know.

As to his play, he was very effective in the first half, but disappeared for most of the second, until that late, exciting 3. IIRC, Jordan Hamilton guarded him much of the game, and wanted to best Barnes on both O and D, which in fact he did.

I wish I had recorded the game, just to compare what I saw in the Coliseum with what the cameras recorded. What I saw was consistently intense defense by Texas, and more defensive commitment by Carolina than I expected.

Tristan Thompson got 2 fouls in first 2 1/2 minutes, sat rest of first half. Ditto first 2-3 minutes of second 1/2, but then played a fair amount in last 10 minutes. Gary Johnson, a Duke recruit I'm pretty sure, is a warrior, undersized but fierce.

No one other than Zeller among UNC's guys, right now, is either a warrior or fierce. Except, I'll guess, when they play Duke [at home, at least].

devildeac

12-19-2010, 01:46 PM

but the Holes may not be as bad as we all hoped they would be.

The above looks/sounds to be true. They were a 4-5 point favorite yesterday. Not meant to be contrary/disagreeable, just stating "the line."

And they w(h)ine about us not scheduling any "away" games.

http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/30.gif

hurley1

12-19-2010, 02:25 PM

but the Holes may not be as bad as we all hoped they would be.

their perimeter defense showed me nothing......if they play the same way against duke, they will get run out of the building........expect duke to light it up from 3 land when these 2 meet.........and plumlee ( either one ) will take care of Zeller with little problems.......don't forget, zeller only has 5 fouls to give.......between the 2 plumlees and ryan, we have 15.......it is what it is........barnes is good, until someone like singler gets a hold of him.......they just don't match up against a team like duke.......

hurley1

12-19-2010, 02:26 PM

The problem isn't that their best player is Zeller. The problem is the drop-off after Zeller. I don't see a consistent second option or really much consistency at all after him.

i absolutely agree with you........barnes shows some promise, until he meets the duke defense......

jimsumner

12-19-2010, 02:53 PM

their perimeter defense showed me nothing......if they play the same way against duke, they will get run out of the building........expect duke to light it up from 3 land when these 2 meet.........and plumlee ( either one ) will take care of Zeller with little problems.......don't forget, zeller only has 5 fouls to give.......between the 2 plumlees and ryan, we have 15.......it is what it is........barnes is good, until someone like singler gets a hold of him.......they just don't match up against a team like duke.......

I really think you're selling Zeller short. He's a very, very good college basketball player. He plays with intelligence, committment and consistency, traits that haven't always been evident in Chapel Hill over the last year or so.

oldnavy

12-19-2010, 03:16 PM

DukieInBrasil

12-19-2010, 04:31 PM

What about UNC is impressive?

The way their coach can throw any player under the bus for any apparent reason?

Merlindevildog91

12-19-2010, 04:44 PM

The way their coach can throw any player under the bus for any apparent reason?

Or for no reason at all?

Lord Ash

12-19-2010, 04:51 PM

ncexnyc

12-19-2010, 04:52 PM

What has UNC done so far this year that is impressive? I keep seeing folks say that they are going to be a good team, that they are better than we thought, etc... but what have they actually done?

Well they beat Kentucky at home. That's it. They lost two games to unranked opponents on a neutral court, they have beaten some marginal teams by slim margins (UNCA -11; CoC -5; LBSU -5).

They are 1-4 in games against major conference opponents....

With the talent they have, they should be 11-0. They started out in the top ten and dropped out by the second week????

What about UNC is impressive?

Surely you jest? Do you really believe they should be 11-0, with what they have for PG's?

You also seem somewhat confused. You question their team by saying they aren't impressive, that you don't think they'll be a good team, and that they aren't better than we thought. Then you throw out your 11-0 comment. So when you get around to figuring out what exactly it is you do believe, get back to us.

As for myself, I see a talented young team. Yes, they make mistakes, but there is just way to much talent and potential on the team for anyone to take to lightly or to write off at this point in time.

CameronBornAndBred

12-19-2010, 05:46 PM

As was stated earlier, Tyler Zeller is a darn good player. I hope that the Plumlees will be able to keep him smothered, because without Zeller and with the guards and guard defense we have, UNC would have a very difficult time sticking with Duke.
Knowing that we have three bigs, I'd be feeding MP1, 2 and Kelly often underneath. I did notice yesterday that he can be prone to foul, so if we distribute well inside it's not a bad bet that he'll start picking up some whistles. Get him to sit, and we can run rampant.

timmy c

12-19-2010, 06:35 PM

Knowing that we have three bigs, I'd be feeding MP1, 2 and Kelly often underneath. I did notice yesterday that he can be prone to foul, so if we distribute well inside it's not a bad bet that he'll start picking up some whistles. Get him to sit, and we can run rampant.

I’d like to see a pick-n-roll or pick-n-pop where UNC bigs are forced to hedge/switch/defend on the perimeter and pick up silly fouls defending Duke’s perimeter players. It’s a lot easier to feed the post after Henson and Zeller have picked up a few fouls on the perimeter.

dukestheheat

12-19-2010, 06:48 PM

What has UNC done so far this year that is impressive? I keep seeing folks say that they are going to be a good team, that they are better than we thought, etc... but what have they actually done?

Well they beat Kentucky at home. That's it. They lost two games to unranked opponents on a neutral court, they have beaten some marginal teams by slim margins (UNCA -11; CoC -5; LBSU -5).

They are 1-4 in games against major conference opponents....

With the talent they have, they should be 11-0. They started out in the top ten and dropped out by the second week????

What about UNC is impressive?

well, in my opinion. They have good overall team speed in transition, and their bigs run the floor and fill the lanes on the break. They follow shots and they block out pretty well, it looks like. Though we'd be favored to win games versus the Holes, they are going to be competitive, and much more so than I'd thought, and I do believe that their inside game is tending on the strong side, right now. Duke has more offensive firepower overall, especially from the outside, but Carolina is pushing the paint as a strength and we will have to contend with this.

Let's Go Duke!

dth.

hurley1

12-19-2010, 06:50 PM

I really think you're selling Zeller short. He's a very, very good college basketball player. He plays with intelligence, committment and consistency, traits that haven't always been evident in Chapel Hill over the last year or so.

i agree...he is excellent.......read what i said again......he only has 5 fouls to give and he is gone.......duke has 15 to give challenging him......2 plumlees and kelly.......Zeller is not good enough to overcome that......nobody is that good.......Zeller will be in foul trouble early against Duke, watch and see...Duke's big guys are going to take it right at him.....every play.....they will get 3 on him in the first half or we will light it up in the paint.....it's Zeller's choice which sword he dies by...............it will be all downhill from there.....

moonpie23

12-19-2010, 07:20 PM

and that they aren't better than we thought. Then you throw out your 11-0 comment. .

ummm....i could be wrong, but i think that was sarcasm....

roywhite

12-19-2010, 07:48 PM

Surely you jest? Do you really believe they should be 11-0, with what they have for PG's?

You also seem somewhat confused. You question their team by saying they aren't impressive, that you don't think they'll be a good team, and that they aren't better than we thought. Then you throw out your 11-0 comment. So when you get around to figuring out what exactly it is you do believe, get back to us.

As for myself, I see a talented young team. Yes, they make mistakes, but there is just way to much talent and potential on the team for anyone to take to lightly or to write off at this point in time.

The original post noted that the record this year does not show much proof of UNC being a very good team, despite their preseason ranking and highly rated recruits. Four losses already and some fairly close calls against lesser teams is not a good start.

Other than your getting in a few personal barbs against the poster, I didn't see any evidence that disproved his position.

Something is not quite right in Chapel Hill. Claims of "talent and potential" have yet to translate into good performance.

jimsumner

12-19-2010, 08:11 PM

i agree...he is excellent.......read what i said again......he only has 5 fouls to give and he is gone.......duke has 15 to give challenging him......2 plumlees and kelly.......Zeller is not good enough to overcome that......nobody is that good.......Zeller will be in foul trouble early against Duke, watch and see...Duke's big guys are going to take it right at him.....every play.....they will get 3 on him in the first half or we will light it up in the paint.....it's Zeller's choice which sword he dies by...............it will be all downhill from there.....

I did read what you wrote. I was responding to the portion of your post that predicted the Plumlee would handle Zeller "with little problem." I suspect that prediction is way too optimistic.

Carolina's biggest problem, IMO, is erratic point guard play and an inability to play an effective half-court offense when they can't score in transition. And given my druthers, I would probably take Plumlee, Plumlee and Kelly over Zeller, Henson and Knox and Hairston definitely is a better fourth-big-option than is Watts.

But I don't think the gap is as big as some think and I believe Duke's game in Chapel Hill will be very, very competitive.

hurley1

12-19-2010, 08:23 PM

I did read what you wrote. I was responding to the portion of your post that predicted the Plumlee would handle Zeller "with little problem." I suspect that prediction is way too optimistic.

Carolina's biggest problem, IMO, is erratic point guard play and an inability to play an effective half-court offense when they can't score in transition. And given my druthers, I would probably take Plumlee, Plumlee and Kelly over Zeller, Henson and Knox and Hairston definitely is a better fourth-big-option than is Watts.

But I don't think the gap is as big as some think and I believe Duke's game in Chapel Hill will be very, very competitive.

That is what makes all this fun........we compare opinions.......my opinion right now is the only way this game will be competitive is for Duke to play excessively below their potential.......if Duke brings their A-Game, it could get very ugly......but, that's my opinion......

Bob Green

12-19-2010, 08:31 PM

That is what makes all this fun........we compare opinions.......my opinion right now is......

Of course, the relative information is Jim Sumner's opinion carries 10,000 times the weight of your opinion.

dukestheheat

12-19-2010, 08:42 PM

That is what makes all this fun........we compare opinions.......my opinion right now is the only way this game will be competitive is for Duke to play excessively below their potential.......if Duke brings their A-Game, it could get very ugly......but, that's my opinion......

...: we are all used to seeing Duke play WITH Kyrie at the PG spot. We beat some very strong competition with him. Right now, we are having to adjust our game; you and I both know what it's like to lose your starting quarterback to injury and this is no different. Duke has been in the flow all season and all of practice with Irving running the show and now Nolan has to do that. Can he do that? Yes. Does that give Duke a new pace on offense? Absolutely. We lose some power with Irving out; of course we're still potent but the gap between Duke and Carolina closes right now.

Carolina looked pretty good in spurts versus Kentucky and Texas, two teams with strong inside games. We are going to have to adjust at the guard spots and then work to keep our bigs out of foul trouble and in the game, or the fight gets even tougher for Duke, in my opinion.

dth.

hurley1

12-19-2010, 08:48 PM

...: we are all used to seeing Duke play WITH Kyrie at the PG spot. We beat some very strong competition with him. Right now, we are having to adjust our game; you and I both know what it's like to lose your starting quarterback to injury and this is no different. Duke has been in the flow all season and all of practice with Irving running the show and now Nolan has to do that. Can he do that? Yes. Does that give Duke a new pace on offense? Absolutely. We lose some power with Irving out; of course we're still potent but the gap between Duke and Carolina closes right now.

Carolina looked pretty good in spurts versus Kentucky and Texas, two teams with strong inside games. We are going to have to adjust at the guard spots and then work to keep our bigs out of foul trouble and in the game, or the fight gets even tougher for Duke, in my opinion.

dth.

all true, but, i just don't see an answer for carolina's pathetic perimeter defense against our 3 point snipers......and, we have a boat load of people to take Zeller on with......just my opinion......:D

BD80

12-19-2010, 08:57 PM

Amen, I would trade either Plumlee for Zeller straight up. Might even throw in the second one.

How could you ever desire someone who has demonstrated such poor judgment by choosing carolina?

DevilHorns

12-19-2010, 09:13 PM

I did read what you wrote. I was responding to the portion of your post that predicted the Plumlee would handle Zeller "with little problem." I suspect that prediction is way too optimistic.

Carolina's biggest problem, IMO, is erratic point guard play and an inability to play an effective half-court offense when they can't score in transition. And given my druthers, I would probably take Plumlee, Plumlee and Kelly over Zeller, Henson and Knox and Hairston definitely is a better fourth-big-option than is Watts.

But I don't think the gap is as big as some think and I believe Duke's game in Chapel Hill will be very, very competitive.

Agree completely. Carolina is improving while still playing generally pretty relaxed, especially on the defensive front. IMO their biggest weakness is not their guard play --- it's their lack of intensity and determination. After we embarrassed them last year, they'll head into the game with their intensity level up. If they can sustain that while getting the crowd behind them, we should be in for a classic.

hurley1

12-19-2010, 09:34 PM

Agree completely. Carolina is improving while still playing generally pretty relaxed, especially on the defensive front. IMO their biggest weakness is not their guard play --- it's their lack of intensity and determination. After we embarrassed them last year, they'll head into the game with their intensity level up. If they can sustain that while getting the crowd behind them, we should be in for a classic.

don't hold your breath.........:D

ncexnyc

12-19-2010, 10:23 PM

The original post noted that the record this year does not show much proof of UNC being a very good team, despite their preseason ranking and highly rated recruits. Four losses already and some fairly close calls against lesser teams is not a good start.

Other than your getting in a few personal barbs against the poster, I didn't see any evidence that disproved his position.

Something is not quite right in Chapel Hill. Claims of "talent and potential" have yet to translate into good performance.
Gee Roy maybe you could explain to me why they should be 11-0? You don't seem to have a problem with that claim.
As far as talent goes, do you have a problem with Zeller's numbers so far? How do Henson's numbers stack up to those of Mason, Miles, and or Ryan? Do you actually feel Barnes hasn't shown improvement these past few games? Granted he isn't All American yet, but do you really believe he won't be a difference maker by the end of the season?

timmy c

12-20-2010, 02:39 AM

Incredible assist from Marshall to Henson...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4uIKFZA0GQ&feature=player_embedded

More plays like this from the PG position would nudge UNC back into the top 25.

shoutingncu

12-20-2010, 03:21 AM

...[Zeller] only has 5 fouls to give and he is gone.......duke has 15 to give challenging him...

Carolina has three bigs, too. Henson was one of the few sparks in the 82 - 50 beatdown and is averaging just shy of a double double this year. Justin Knox provides five extra fouls and can bang down low. That said, I've mentioned several times that Zeller is needed on the floor, but it's not like he's our only option in the paint. And unlike his namesake... he passes out of most double teams.

But I don't think the gap is as big as some think and I believe Duke's game in Chapel Hill will be very, very competitive.

In fact, the game last year in Chapel Hill was fairly competitive until the end, as I recall, so I certainly think it stands to reason this season's will be, as well. And I believe it was Scheyer that came up with the big plays to give Duke separation, for what it's worth.

oldnavy

12-20-2010, 07:00 AM

Gee Roy maybe you could explain to me why they should be 11-0? You don't seem to have a problem with that claim.
As far as talent goes, do you have a problem with Zeller's numbers so far? How do Henson's numbers stack up to those of Mason, Miles, and or Ryan? Do you actually feel Barnes hasn't shown improvement these past few games? Granted he isn't All American yet, but do you really believe he won't be a difference maker by the end of the season?

Well, it is really quite simple. UNC was voted by the sports writers and coaches as a top 10 team this year. They have more talent than any team they have played to date, therefore they should have won every game thus far. It would be interesting to go and look to see if UNC wasn't favored in each of these games...

Sooo, Which game or games that UNC lost do you think that UNC had less talent on floor? Ill? Vandy? Minn? or Texas? Remember you have a preseason AA, and a total of 6 McD AA's on the roster and a HOF coach. Did you have less talent or more talent than UK??

So come on, you really expected to be 7-4?? And if you did expect that then why?? What went wrong? Can't explain this one away because of injuries.

Maybe everyone has been wrong regarding the talent level of the players, including Roy, the AP, and the Micky D voters?? Highly doubtful.

So if you go back and read what I said, it is not contradictory at all. I am saying that they are not a very good team, and that they have not been impressive thus far... not that they do not have talent. There is a big difference between the two.

dougc33

12-20-2010, 09:21 AM

Well, it is really quite simple. UNC was voted by the sports writers and coaches as a top 10 team this year. They have more talent than any team they have played to date, therefore they should have won every game thus far. It would be interesting to go and look to see if UNC wasn't favored in each of these games...

Sooo, Which game or games that UNC lost do you think that UNC had less talent on floor? Ill? Vandy? Minn? or Texas? Remember you have a preseason AA, and a total of 6 McD AA's on the roster and a HOF coach. Did you have less talent or more talent than UK??

So come on, you really expected to be 7-4?? And if you did expect that then why?? What went wrong? Can't explain this one away because of injuries.

Maybe everyone has been wrong regarding the talent level of the players, including Roy, the AP, and the Micky D voters?? Highly doubtful.

So if you go back and read what I said, it is not contradictory at all. I am saying that they are not a very good team, and that they have not been impressive thus far... not that they do not have talent. There is a big difference between the two.

Barnes
Bullock
Marshall
Henson
Zeller
Strickland
Drewll

trinity92

12-20-2010, 09:39 AM

Of course, the relative information is Jim Sumner's opinion carries 10,000 times the weight of your opinion.

Completely unnecessary Bob -- who's policing the police here?

jimsumner

12-20-2010, 09:45 AM

Barnes
Bullock
Marshall
Henson
Zeller
Strickland
Drewll

As an aside, shouldn't the Duke fan base recognize by now that the McDonald's and/or Parade team isn't necessarily a valid predictor of college sucess? Had Larry Drew II or Kendall Marshall signed with Missouri or Virginia, would they have been so honored? Like Jamal Boykin or Eric Boateng, were those selections in part a result of the school they signed with?

I'm not a recruiting maven but the folks I know who are consistently scratched their heads at the idea that either Drew or Marshall was one of the top 20 players in high school hoops. The Wears also likely were oversold.

Obviously, Roy Williams recruited them and recruited them to be starters somewhere down the line. So, his evaluation and/or development skills are valid topics for conjecture.

But look at Duke's 2007 team, which went 8-8 in the ACC. Duke had Nelson, McRoberts, Paulus, Scheyer, Henderson, and Thomas as McDonald's, with Zoubek having been a Parade. Yet this team finished behind teams without a single prep All-American.

Was Krzyzewski a bad coach in 2007? Or is possible that adding up high-school All-Americans is not the best way to evaluate a team's strengths and weaknesses?

oldnavy

12-20-2010, 10:28 AM

As an aside, shouldn't the Duke fan base recognize by now that the McDonald's and/or Parade team isn't necessarily a valid predictor of college sucess? Had Larry Drew II or Kendall Marshall signed with Missouri or Virginia, would they have been so honored? Like Jamal Boykin or Eric Boateng, were those selections in part a result of the school they signed with?

I'm not a recruiting maven but the folks I know who are consistently scratched their heads at the idea that either Drew or Marshall was one of the top 20 players in high school hoops. The Wears also likely were oversold.

Obviously, Roy Williams recruited them and recruited them to be starters somewhere down the line. So, his evaluation and/or development skills are valid topics for conjecture.

But look at Duke's 2007 team, which went 8-8 in the ACC. Duke had Nelson, McRoberts, Paulus, Scheyer, Henderson, and Thomas as McDonald's, with Zoubek having been a Parade. Yet this team finished behind teams without a single prep All-American.

Was Krzyzewski a bad coach in 2007? Or is possible that adding up high-school All-Americans is not the best way to evaluate a team's strengths and weaknesses?

Jim, I do not disagree with you about the MD AA selections and how they can be wrong. So can preseason AA picks as we are witnessing down the road a bit.

The point I am trying to make is that UNC has talent and yet is not a very good team at this point in the season. I read a lot of comments by posters who say they are better than we thought, they are going to be good and the like, which I totally do not get. They were preseason #9, so how can they be better than we thought when they have fallen all the way out of the top 25 and have only one win over a decent opponent? Beside the blowout of Hofstra, they have basically survived the other games that they won.

I was asking what other posters see as impressive by UNC at this point. My assessment (which is uneducated and slightly biased :o) is that they have done very little to be impressive or warrent expectations that they will morph into a top 10 team.

Will they get better, probably. Will they be a factor down the road? I would not be shocked, but I suspect they will continue along as they are now and finish with 10 or more losses and be a bubble team come March.

Was K a bad coach in 07? Of course not. Was the 07 Duke team a disappointment.... well yes, I think they were. We are not immune from disappointing seasons.

I am not even saying that Roy is mishandling this years team. In fact, so far I think he is doing a much better job than he did last year when things got bad. I still think his rotation could be tightened up and more minutes given to Bullock and Marshall, but hey I am not a coach so what do I know?

Just not feeling the heels yet and wondering why those that are, are.

dukestheheat

12-20-2010, 10:56 AM

Jim, I do not disagree with you about the MD AA selections and how they can be wrong. So can preseason AA picks as we are witnessing down the road a bit.

The point I am trying to make is that UNC has talent and yet is not a very good team at this point in the season. I read a lot of comments by posters who say they are better than we thought, they are going to be good and the like, which I totally do not get. They were preseason #9, so how can they be better than we thought when they have fallen all the way out of the top 25 and have only one win over a decent opponent? Beside the blowout of Hofstra, they have basically survived the other games that they won.

I was asking what other posters see as impressive by UNC at this point. My assessment (which is uneducated and slightly biased :o) is that they have done very little to be impressive or warrent expectations that they will morph into a top 10 team.

Will they get better, probably. Will they be a factor down the road? I would not be shocked, but I suspect they will continue along as they are now and finish with 10 or more losses and be a bubble team come March.

Was K a bad coach in 07? Of course not. Was the 07 Duke team a disappointment.... well yes, I think they were. We are not immune from disappointing seasons.

I am not even saying that Roy is mishandling this years team. In fact, so far I think he is doing a much better job than he did last year when things got bad. I still think his rotation could be tightened up and more minutes given to Bullock and Marshall, but hey I am not a coach so what do I know?

Just not feeling the heels yet and wondering why those that are, are.

...the Holes are better than I'd anticipated (based on their 7-4 record), including: they have good team speed overall, their bigs fill the lanes on the break and they are able to get up the floor in transition. They seem to block out well and have a developing, strong inside presence. Is their perimeter defense strong? No, I don't think so.

Take their pre-season high ranking, and throw in all the early season losses and poor performances versus lowly ranked teams, and then throw them OUT of the Top 25......which is what happened.....and then it's logical for all to say 'man, they really aren't that good at all.' Then, watch them play Kentucky and then play Texas, and you get a totally different feeling about that team!

They are developing quickly and their latent team strength belies a 7-4 record; we are going to have to work much harder, especially without Irving, to beat them at both places this year. I think we are still better, but that gap has closed with their performances versus Kentucky and Texas, in my opinion.

dth.

allenmurray

12-20-2010, 11:01 AM

Completely unnecessary Bob -- who's policing the police here?

Not all opinions are created equal. (The ever-fair) Bob Green might have been referring to Jim Sumner's 30+ career as a journalist covering the ACC, thinking that maybe, just maybe, that adds to his credibility.

http://jimsumner.net/

flyingdutchdevil

12-20-2010, 11:09 AM

Not all opinions are created equal. (The ever-fair) Bob Green might have been referring to Jim Sumner's 30+ career as a journalist covering the ACC, thinking that maybe, just maybe, that adds to his credibility.

http://jimsumner.net/

I completely disagree. All opinions are created equal. It's the strength of the evidence backing the opinion that leads to others agreeing (or disagreeing) on the opinion that is not created equal.

IMO, stating that opinions aren't created equal goes completely against the idea of free speech and opinionated discussion, which is what this site promotes.

Anyway, I agree with Trinity on this one - Bob's comments were a little out of line. Hell, I would probably get an infraction here if I said that comment.

SuperTurkey

12-20-2010, 11:19 AM

IMO, stating that opinions aren't created equal goes completely against the idea of free speech and opinionated discussion, which is what this site promotes.

I don't think free speech is promoted by this site, and I mean that in the best possible way. The sticky posts clearly denote what kind of speech is acceptable here.

camion

12-20-2010, 11:33 AM

From what I have seen of UNC this year they have pretty consistently played like a top 20-35 team. That's better than last year and I'm not surprised by that; they should be at least that good based on the way their talent is generally rated. They have a lot of good players, but not one that has played like an All-American. I'd put Zeller first team All-ACC, but that's about it.

I don't think that UNC has at any time this year played like a top ten team and I'd say that that the dork polls have them ranked reasonably well at 25 (kenpom) and 36 (Sagarin). They are good, but not great and their close loss at home to a Texas team ranked 22 (Kenpom, Sagarin) is consistent with that ranking.

Duvall

12-20-2010, 11:54 AM

In fact, the game last year in Chapel Hill was fairly competitive until the end, as I recall, so I certainly think it stands to reason this season's will be, as well. And I believe it was Scheyer that came up with the big plays to give Duke separation, for what it's worth.

Well, perhaps. But as I recall, the reason that the game was close in the first place was the post defense of Ed Davis and Deon Thompson. So I'm not sure how much we can take from that game.

The simpler explanation is that the Heels are what they are - an above-average team in the 25-35 range nationally. As camion noted, that's where the dork polls have them, that's where the human polls have them, and that's where they belong given their performance to date. We'll see how that translates to success in this year's ACC.

Kedsy

12-20-2010, 11:56 AM

They are developing quickly and their latent team strength belies a 7-4 record; we are going to have to work much harder, especially without Irving, to beat them at both places this year. I think we are still better, but that gap has closed with their performances versus Kentucky and Texas, in my opinion.

Well, I've been defending UNC in another thread and I feel kind of dirty right now, so I feel obligated to point out that on this date last year UNC was doing much better than they're doing right now. They were 8-3 (rather than 7-4), and their three losses were to the #2 team in the country on the road, to the #5 team in the country by two points at Rupp Arena, and in a neutral site game to a Syracuse team that ended up a #1 seed. They had good wins over Ohio State and Michigan State. They looked a lot better then than they do now.

And we all know how that worked out. I think the jury is still out on UNC's prospects for this season. I would be surprised if Duke loses to them this year, although admittedly you can never truly predict the results in this rivalry.

trinity92

12-20-2010, 02:24 PM

I don't think free speech is promoted by this site, and I mean that in the best possible way. The sticky posts clearly denote what kind of speech is acceptable here.

Not all opinions are created equal. (The ever-fair) Bob Green might have been referring to Jim Sumner's 30+ career as a journalist covering the ACC, thinking that maybe, just maybe, that adds to his credibility.

http://jimsumner.net/

I know and value Bob's many contributions to this site-- I found this post out of character for him. Further, I know exactly who Jim is. We all respect what he has to say and none of this is a comment on him at all.

SuperTurkey may know there are stickys, but from reading them, it's plain to see Bob's comment was infraction worthy. We all feel privileged to have this kind of access to a journalist of Jim's caliber, but we also need to be careful that once he has voiced his opinion on something, not to close out any further discussion and call the matter settled. Jim chooses to post here, in an online forum, which invites discussion and even dissent. He has many other avenues to get his message to people where the flow is one way. Let's stick to giving people a hard time for the substance of their opinions.

I really don't want to hijack this thread, and I thought about PMing Bob before I posted. I don't have much more to say, but would entertain discussion offline if any think it necessary.

As far as unc goes, I agree with some of the others that saw some sparks of good play out of them against Texas. They're a young team and playing like it. We can only hope their development stalls like last year. I agree with a previous poster who said their frontcourt is so focused on blocks a bit of penetration will really open up weak side rebounds and make spotting shooters on the perimeter an easy thing. I see a lot of drives to the baseline yielding good looks to a cutter in the lane or a shooter in the corner.

oldnavy

12-20-2010, 02:58 PM

...the Holes are better than I'd anticipated (based on their 7-4 record), including: they have good team speed overall, their bigs fill the lanes on the break and they are able to get up the floor in transition. They seem to block out well and have a developing, strong inside presence. Is their perimeter defense strong? No, I don't think so.

Take their pre-season high ranking, and throw in all the early season losses and poor performances versus lowly ranked teams, and then throw them OUT of the Top 25......which is what happened.....and then it's logical for all to say 'man, they really aren't that good at all.' Then, watch them play Kentucky and then play Texas, and you get a totally different feeling about that team!

They are developing quickly and their latent team strength belies a 7-4 record; we are going to have to work much harder, especially without Irving, to beat them at both places this year. I think we are still better, but that gap has closed with their performances versus Kentucky and Texas, in my opinion.

dth.

If we are saying UNC is a decent team and that they do not stink, I agree. They are not horrible, far from it. But they are not a good team either. They have essentially played to the level of their opponents this year and good teams do not do that. They have talent that is better than a 7-4 team with single digit wins over Long Beach State and College of Charleston and an 11 point win over UNC-Asheville that was close until the final minutes.

They do not seem to know what they are yet. They look like a team that is desperately trying to be a run and gun team, that has to go to Zeller on the inside from the half-court game to be effective. I believe they would be better off defining themselves as a half-court team that will run IF the opportunity presents it’s self rather than a run first, run second, settle for half-court if the first two options do not work.

I will say this, so far Roy has been more patient than he was last year at least up to this point. He isn’t complaining publically about lack of effort and such. I get the sense that this team likes each other more than the team last year did. We will have to see if that translates into more W’s over the next few months.

Bob Green

12-20-2010, 03:17 PM

Completely unnecessary Bob -- who's policing the police here?

- Bob's comments were a little out of line. Hell, I would probably get an infraction here if I said that comment.

It appears my comment was not well received by many on the board so I apologize for stepping out of line. Just to be clear, I'm not apologizing for what I said, I'm just apologizing for saying it. I should've left it alone but seeing as I didn't, I'm mature enough to admit I made a mistake. Hey, we all have our moments....

In the future, I'll attempt to follow the sage advice provided numerous times by my dear Mother and keep my mouth shut when I do not have something nice to say, or more accurately stated for this community, keep my fingers idle when I do not have something nice to type.

At least there is a game tonight as I think we all need something new to discuss. I know I do.

devildeac

12-20-2010, 03:32 PM

It appears my comment was not well received by many on the board so I apologize for stepping out of line. Just to be clear, I'm not apologizing for what I said, I'm just apologizing for saying it. I should've left it alone but seeing as I didn't, I'm mature enough to admit I made a mistake. Hey, we all have our moments....

In the future, I'll attempt to follow the sage advice provided numerous times by my dear Mother and keep my mouth shut when I do not have something nice to say, or more accurately stated for this community, keep my fingers idle when I do not have something nice to type.

At least there is a game tonight as I think we all need something new to discuss. I know I do.

Don't you mean "a game toenight?" At least get the spelling correct. Sheesh. ;):rolleyes:

allenmurray

12-20-2010, 03:35 PM

IMO, stating that opinions aren't created equal goes completely against the idea of free speech and opinionated discussion, which is what this site promotes.

"Free Speech" applies to governmental sanctions. Folks who talk about free speach, or complain about the lack of it, on a private fourm are being beyond silly, and/or they throw around a term like "free speech" just a little too lightly.

DBR is a private site owned by Sports Blog nation. They can post rules and then do whatever they please. They can apply them unequally if they so choose. They can apply the rules on odd numbered days and not on even numbered days. They can give far greater latitude to some posters than to others (usually with good reason). They can design little pitchforks. They can act in an arbitrary and capricous manner in the enforcement of the rules if they so choose. It is their site - they owe us nothing.

Anyway, I agree with Trinity on this one - Bob's comments were a little out of line. Hell, I would probably get an infraction here if I said that comment.

That they would give a moderator like Bob Green, with his extensive history here and his reputation for his gentlemanly ways (and I mean that sincerely) more latitude than they might give others is not only within their rights as a private site, but makes a lot of sense. That Bob would use that well-earned latitude to then defend the opinions of an esteemed and experienced sports journalist as perhaps carrying a bit more weight than those of other posters makes a lot of sense too.

All opinions are created equal. It's the strength of the evidence backing the opinion that leads to others agreeing (or disagreeing) on the opinion that is not created equal.

I contend this idea that all opinions are equal is a bit silly. We may all have an equal right to hold, and depending onthe forum to express ours, but depending on the field some simply carry more weight than others. A doctor's diagnosis is sometimes no more than an opinion - he/she can be wrong, especially in areas where testing can't be definitive. But I'll pay for that opinion while not accepting the opinion of my barber who had a nephew who had a friend who had a cousin with the same medical problem. Similarly the opinion of an investment advisor may carry more weight if he is experienced in his field than that of an amatuer investor who got lucky one time but who has no real understanding of how markets work. But it is still an opinion - no garuntees. What about the opinion of the likely outcome of a civil suit? No attorney really knows for sure how a judge/jury will rule, but his/her opinion is based on years of study and practice. It is why ESPN will pay Bob Knight millions ofdollars to share his opinion, but they don't pay you or me to share ours. They recognize that his are far more credible. Not that he is always right, but that he has a bit more gravitas behind his. All opinions are simply not equal. Those based on years of research and fact gathering are worth more than those that are not.

sdotbarbee

12-20-2010, 03:40 PM

It appears my comment was not well received by many on the board so I apologize for stepping out of line. Just to be clear, I'm not apologizing for what I said, I'm just apologizing for saying it.[/B] I should've left it alone but seeing as I didn't, I'm mature enough to admit I made a mistake. Hey, we all have our moments....

In the future, I'll attempt to follow the sage advice provided numerous times by my dear Mother and keep my mouth shut when I do not have something nice to say, or more accurately stated for this community, keep my fingers idle when I do not have something nice to type.

At least there is a game tonight as I think we all need something new to discuss. I know I do.

Really, do you think? Really makes me wonder about the mods on here, but thanks for apologizing for saying it but not for what you said.:rolleyes:

dukestheheat

12-20-2010, 05:07 PM

If we are saying UNC is a decent team and that they do not stink, I agree. They are not horrible, far from it. But they are not a good team either. They have essentially played to the level of their opponents this year and good teams do not do that. They have talent that is better than a 7-4 team with single digit wins over Long Beach State and College of Charleston and an 11 point win over UNC-Asheville that was close until the final minutes.

They do not seem to know what they are yet. They look like a team that is desperately trying to be a run and gun team, that has to go to Zeller on the inside from the half-court game to be effective. I believe they would be better off defining themselves as a half-court team that will run IF the opportunity presents it’s self rather than a run first, run second, settle for half-court if the first two options do not work.

I will say this, so far Roy has been more patient than he was last year at least up to this point. He isn’t complaining publically about lack of effort and such. I get the sense that this team likes each other more than the team last year did. We will have to see if that translates into more W’s over the next few months.

...I see what you're saying. And, if UNC doesn't 'seem to know what they are yet', then I'd have to say that we are now in the same boat, having to re-define who we are going to be without Irving (for the time being, at least). I'm probably one of the biggest Nolan fans on the DBR but I do think he's much better receiving a pass from a PG and getting his shot that way, at least in the half court, versus having the ball in his hand from the get-go and then having to set up the others and work for his own shot. I see him primarily as a receiver-then-shooter and less of a creator-then-shooter, unless he's full speed in transition for the power finish at the rim.

dth.

hurley1

12-20-2010, 07:01 PM

Completely unnecessary Bob -- who's policing the police here?

Don't worry about it.......for some reason he took a shot at me......thing is, he doesn't know who i am.....if he did, maybe he wouldn't have said that......;).......let's just move on........

oldnavy

12-20-2010, 09:27 PM

...I see what you're saying. And, if UNC doesn't 'seem to know what they are yet', then I'd have to say that we are now in the same boat, having to re-define who we are going to be without Irving (for the time being, at least). I'm probably one of the biggest Nolan fans on the DBR but I do think he's much better receiving a pass from a PG and getting his shot that way, at least in the half court, versus having the ball in his hand from the get-go and then having to set up the others and work for his own shot. I see him primarily as a receiver-then-shooter and less of a creator-then-shooter, unless he's full speed in transition for the power finish at the rim.

dth.

Yea, but the big difference is we are having to do it as a result of an injury. UNC has had last year and all summer to figure it out...