Lee says thanks, but no thanks to the Yankees and Texas

[Deslok]

Wow, signs a shorter term deal (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AibmzIspsoiTUj7yxoLwXcQ5nYcB?slug=ti-philliessignlee121310) with Philadelphia.

I wouldn't have been surprised if some team landed Lee for an offer that exceed the others, but to sneak under the radar and land him for less than the other offers is a big coup for the Phillies.

And of course, as a Red Sox fan, I'm loving it(for multiple reasons, as it means one less left hander for the Sox lineup to worry about in the AL East, the teeth gnashing and uproar now set to happen in the NYC media, the possible subsequent semi-panic deal that will be made to make a media splash, etc).

[tommy]

I don't get it. I thought the Phillies dealt Lee away because they preferred Halladay and didn't want to or couldn't pay them both. Now they are paying Lee huge bucks and still have Halladay to pay as well. What gives?

By the way, I think this is a huge blow to the Yankees. Sure, they may get good seasons out of Pettitte, Hughes, or even Burnett, but they certainly can't count on it. They don't have a second starter they can really count on behind CC. Sure they'll try to sign somebody, but there's not gonna be another Cliff Lee walking through that door. The Red Sox should be solid favorites going into the season with their signings and who they have coming back.

[Duvall]

I don't get it. I thought the Phillies dealt Lee away because they preferred Halladay and didn't want to or couldn't pay them both. Now they are paying Lee huge bucks and still have Halladay to pay as well. What gives?

They lost?

I'm just impressed that the Phillies have been able to assemble this kind of talent with a payroll of just $75 million.

Wait, no - that's what they'll be paying their five starters. My bad.

[SCMatt33]

I don't get it. I thought the Phillies dealt Lee away because they preferred Halladay and didn't want to or couldn't pay them both. Now they are paying Lee huge bucks and still have Halladay to pay as well. What gives?

I think it was less about the money for the one year, but I don't think that last year that they could re-sign him and didn't want come out empty handed. I think they declared that the money wasn't a problem when they took on Oswalt last July. They had some money after losing Werth, and I assume that they will give away Joe Blanton's 8.5 mil a year contract. With today's free agent market, someone will take a shot on him. As far as the numbers go, they were likely willing to pay Werth somewhere in the 15 mil range. If they have to cover some of Blanton's contract, they can recoup enough to make that a wash money-wise.

[tommy]

They lost?

I'm just impressed that the Phillies have been able to assemble this kind of talent with a payroll of just $75 million.

Wait, no - that's what they'll be paying their five starters. My bad.

Unless theyre going to dangle one of the starters for a bat. If they can shed one or even two starters' salaries and take on another hitter's number then what they've done starts to make more sense. I don't see them going to spring training with Halladat, Lee, Oswalt, Hamels, and Blanton all on the roster.

The rest of the league better hope not, anyway.

[devildeac]

They lost?

I'm just impressed that the Phillies have been able to assemble this kind of talent with a payroll of just $75 million.

Wait, no - that's what they'll be paying their five starters. My bad.

Now THAT is a whole lotta cheese steaks;).

[InSpades]

By the way, I think this is a huge blow to the Yankees. Sure, they may get good seasons out of Pettitte, Hughes, or even Burnett, but they certainly can't count on it. They don't have a second starter they can really count on behind CC. Sure they'll try to sign somebody, but there's not gonna be another Cliff Lee walking through that door. The Red Sox should be solid favorites going into the season with their signings and who they have coming back.

It would have been a bigger blow to the Yankees if he had signed w/ Texas. It does mean the Yankees now need Pettitte to come back (instead of just really really want him to come back). Assuming he does... the Yankees still have a better pitching staff than the Red Sox (not by much) and the lineups are comparable. The Red Sox lost Beltre and gained Gonzalez and Crawford? Certainly an improvement but they missed the playoffs by 6 games last year. They needed to improve just to get back into the race. Meanwhile the 2 teams the Yankees actually competed with last year in the AL have both suffered losses.

[bluebear]

It would have been a bigger blow to the Yankees if he had signed w/ Texas. It does mean the Yankees now need Pettitte to come back (instead of just really really want him to come back). Assuming he does... the Yankees still have a better pitching staff than the Red Sox (not by much) and the lineups are comparable. The Red Sox lost Beltre and gained Gonzalez and Crawford? Certainly an improvement but they missed the playoffs by 6 games last year. They needed to improve just to get back into the race. Meanwhile the 2 teams the Yankees actually competed with last year in the AL have both suffered losses.

Not sure how you would give the Yankees an edge in pitching over the Sox. I'll give you the closer but I still think the sox have a better starting 5..The rest of the bullpen remains undecided at this point..As for them finishing 6 games back last year, they were decimated with injuries the whole season..the fact that they remained in the race and only finished 6 games back was shocking given the AAA/AAAA line-up they had on the field for more than half the season..Now they have one of if not the best lineup in baseball. This is a big blow for the Yankees who could use another big lefty given how lefty oriented the sox now are..I'm sure the Yankees will answer with some sort of deal but the Sox have to be the favorite right now to win the east...

[InSpades]

Not sure how you would give the Yankees an edge in pitching over the Sox. I'll give you the closer but I still think the sox have a better starting 5..The rest of the bullpen remains undecided at this point..As for them finishing 6 games back last year, they were decimated with injuries the whole season..the fact that they remained in the race and only finished 6 games back was shocking given the AAA/AAAA line-up they had on the field for more than half the season..Now they have one of if not the best lineup in baseball. This is a big blow for the Yankees who could use another big lefty given how lefty oriented the sox now are..I'm sure the Yankees will answer with some sort of deal but the Sox have to be the favorite right now to win the east...

The Yankees had a better pitching staff last year than the Red Sox and they basically remain mostly the same (assuming Pettitte comes back), no? CC vs. Bucholz, Pettitte vs. Lester, Hughes vs. Lackey, AJ vs. Beckett, Dice-K vs. whoever is the Yankees #5 starter next year. Seems reasonably even to me.

I forgot the Red Sox lost V-Mart too. So they lost 2 of their best hitters from last year. They will be better, but I wouldn't say they are favorites :).

[sagegrouse]

It would have been a bigger blow to the Yankees if he had signed w/ Texas. It does mean the Yankees now need Pettitte to come back (instead of just really really want him to come back). Assuming he does... the Yankees still have a better pitching staff than the Red Sox (not by much) and the lineups are comparable. The Red Sox lost Beltre and gained Gonzalez and Crawford? Certainly an improvement but they missed the playoffs by 6 games last year. They needed to improve just to get back into the race. Meanwhile the 2 teams the Yankees actually competed with last year in the AL have both suffered losses.

Yankees have more problems than the loss of Lee. They are old. Event hough Cano may be the best player in the game, he can't carry the team by himself. Jeter probably needs to play another position -- but where? Pitching depth is a problem, and I suppose Mariano ptiches forever, but....

The Red Sox's signing Crawford denies him to the Rays, but he is a lefty who doesn't hit lefties well and has never hit to the opposite field. The Sawks face a lot of lefties.

I can see an upheaval where the younger, more vibrant teams in Minnesota, Texas, and elsewhere overturn the existing order.

sagegrouse

[bluebear]

The Yankees had a better pitching staff last year than the Red Sox and they basically remain mostly the same (assuming Pettitte comes back), no? CC vs. Bucholz, Pettitte vs. Lester, Hughes vs. Lackey, AJ vs. Beckett, Dice-K vs. whoever is the Yankees #5 starter next year. Seems reasonably even to me.

I forgot the Red Sox lost V-Mart too. So they lost 2 of their best hitters from last year. They will be better, but I wouldn't say they are favorites :).

I see it more like this..though I am biased..:D
CC slight edge over Lester
Buchholz slight edge over Hughes
Beckett over Pettitte (unsigned)
Lackey over Burnett
Dice-K over Yankee #5

As for the bats, I would consider Gonzalez and Crawford a slight upgrade overall over Beltre/V-Mart and I think you are underestimating the fact that Pedroia, Youkilis, and Ellsbury combined played less than half the season..Again, I'm sure the Yankees will make a move but I think you would be one of the few to not consider the sox the favorites..:D

[Olympic Fan]

As a Yankee fan, it does no good to pretend that Lee's decision was not a blow. We were counting on him to put us over the top again. It will be interesting to see how GM Brian Cashman responds -- therre are no real free agent options out there (please, not Carl Pavano!), so if he's going to strengthen the staff, he's got to deal ... and that would mean parting with some promising youngsters.

I'm told that the Yankees may use some of the free agent money budgeted for Lee to re-sign Kerry Wood. That would bolster the bullpen and maybe free up Joba Chamberlain to return to the starting rotation. I'm also told that the Yankees are VERY unlikely to get involved in the chase for Zack Grienke -- they're scared of his anxiety disorder.

Lee's decision makes it even more important that we bring Pettite back for next season. Hey, convince him that he's one strong season away from the Hall of Fame!

Just as an aside, I told somebody recently that Larry Rothchild may turn out to be the most important acquisition of the off-season. The Yankees new pitching coach did a good job with several of the Cub pitchers -- if he can straighten out Burnett and Chamberlain (two guys with talent who ended the year really messed up), that would be like a major free agent acquisition.

As for the Yankees-Red Sox comparison, I think it's going to be interesting. Yes, the Red Sox lost two big bats in Beltre and Martinez and a couple of their big guns are declining (Ortiz and Drew). But I think Gonzales is a HUGE pickup ... I think he's going to be great for them. I'm less sold on Crawford -- he was great last year but that was a career year for him and he hasn't been at that level. Can he stay there? Don't get me wrong, I think he's a nice player, but I'm not sure he's really a great one (as a Yankee fan, I didn't want to pursue Crawford ... I'm happy with Gardner, who is younger and has IMHO more upside).

The thing about the Red Sox that scares me is that their 2010 season was wrecked by injuries. Having Pedroia, Youkilis and Ellsbery for the entire season is HUGE.

Agree that the Rays and the Rangers have fallen back. The Angels have failed to make a move. At the moment, it looks like the Yanks and Red Sox are once again clearcut favorites in the AL. It will be interesting to watch the race unfold ... and kind of fun to be the underdog for once (EVERYBODY is picking the Sox now that Lee has spurned the Yanks).

One final note. For all the crud the Yanks have taken for their free-spending ways, it's interesting to go to baseball reference (http://www.baseball-reference.com/) and check out the estimated 2011 payrolls (in mllions):

1. Yankees $169.7
2. Philles $152.5
3. Red Sox $147.9
4. Cubs $141.0
5. Mets $135.9
6. Angels $124.5

It looks like the Yankees aren't spending their competition into the ground ... the real outrage should be directed at the Cubs and Mets -- two of baseball's biggest spenders without results!

[JasonEvans]

It is interesting to me that much of the coverage today is talking about Lee leaving money on the table.

He took 5 years at $120 million from the Phils, an average of $24 mil per season.
The Yankees reportedly offered (http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/news/story?id=5918510) $148 million for 7 years, or just over $21 mil per season.

Lee will be 37 when his contract with the Phils runs out. That is not exactly ancient for a pitcher. To match the dollars in the Yankees deal, he would merely have to earn $28 million over the next 2 years. With inflation, I don't think that is at all difficult to imagine. Plus, it is always better to get more money now versus later.

I don't think the Phils will deal any of their stud starters, though they may get rid of Blanton's $8+ mil salary. They are going to throw ace after ace at teams next year. It will be scary! I was feeling great about the Braves after they added a big bat in Dan Uggla. But now I am really worried that the Phils may simply be uncatchable with that rotation. And all these guys are fairly young too -- they each have at least 3 good years left before they start to get old. Sheesh!

-Jason "the Yanks won't panic and go after Pavano" Evans

[InSpades]

I see it more like this..though I am biased..:D
CC slight edge over Lester
Buchholz slight edge over Hughes
Beckett over Pettitte (unsigned)
Lackey over Burnett
Dice-K over Yankee #5

As for the bats, I would consider Gonzalez and Crawford a slight upgrade overall over Beltre/V-Mart and I think you are underestimating the fact that Pedroia, Youkilis, and Ellsbury combined played less than half the season..Again, I'm sure the Yankees will make a move but I think you would be one of the few to not consider the sox the favorites..:D

Beckett over Pettitte? Beckett gave up 2.5 earned runs more than Pettitte per 9 innings. He was awful. I expect him to be better next year (but same can be said for AJ, which is why I matched them up).

The Yankees had the best offense in baseball last year and most of their lineup hit well below their career averages. Jeter was 40 points under his career average, A-Rod and Tex were 30 points below, Posada 25 points below, Granderson 20 points below. Some of it might be due to age but it's hard to believe that they dropped off this far in just 1 year. Cano and Swisher were the only Yankee hitters to do better than expected. I'm not too concerned as a Yankee fan. They will surely make some move, but I don't think they need to do anything drastic. They obviously need a #2 starter (which Pettitte would fill).

[InSpades]

It is interesting to me that much of the coverage today is talking about Lee leaving money on the table.

He took 5 years at $120 million from the Phils, an average of $24 mil per season.
The Yankees reportedly offered (http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/news/story?id=5918510) $148 million for 7 years, or just over $21 mil per season.


There's supposedly a vesting option for a 6th year in Cliff's new deal. So he may have left even less money on the table. If he's really getting $24M per year then I don't see it as a big shock he went to Philly. Plus once you're making "ridiculous" amounts of money it's a lot easier to leave money on the table (or so one would assume).

The Yankees have apparently signed Russell Martin to catch and allow Posada to play DH (I guess he will still catch some).

[SoCalDukeFan]

I don't get it. I thought the Phillies dealt Lee away because they preferred Halladay and didn't want to or couldn't pay them both. Now they are paying Lee huge bucks and still have Halladay to pay as well. What gives?

By the way, I think this is a huge blow to the Yankees. Sure, they may get good seasons out of Pettitte, Hughes, or even Burnett, but they certainly can't count on it. They don't have a second starter they can really count on behind CC. Sure they'll try to sign somebody, but there's not gonna be another Cliff Lee walking through that door. The Red Sox should be solid favorites going into the season with their signings and who they have coming back.

is that the Phillies sat down with Lee and his agent. At that time the Phillies philosophy was not to give starting pitchers more than 3 years. Lee's agent said it would take more to sign Lee and threw out some big numbers which may have been the opening shot in the negotiations. Halladay wanted to come to Philly to be in the playoffs and be close to his home in Florida in the Spring, so he was willing to take the deal. Lee evidently loved it in Philly and the Phillies relented on the 3 years and Lee relented on some money and years.

Phillies need to dump some salary. I certainly think Blanton will go. With this starting pitching and the other hitters they have they may be able to get away with a too young Domonic Brown in right or Ben Francisco etc.

This is huge positive very good day for baseball. The Yankee money did not prevail.

SoCal

[bluebear]

Beckett over Pettitte? Beckett gave up 2.5 earned runs more than Pettitte per 9 innings. He was awful. I expect him to be better next year (but same can be said for AJ, which is why I matched them up).

The Yankees had the best offense in baseball last year and most of their lineup hit well below their career averages. Jeter was 40 points under his career average, A-Rod and Tex were 30 points below, Posada 25 points below, Granderson 20 points below. Some of it might be due to age but it's hard to believe that they dropped off this far in just 1 year. Cano and Swisher were the only Yankee hitters to do better than expected. I'm not too concerned as a Yankee fan. They will surely make some move, but I don't think they need to do anything drastic. They obviously need a #2 starter (which Pettitte would fill).

Beckett was terrible but like you said, he will likely be better this year. I think he is a better pitcher overall at this point in his career compared to Pettitte mainly because of Pettitte's age.
But I do agree with you overall that the Yankees are obviously still stacked and (unfortunately ;) ) will clearly be right there even if they don't make another move...

[InSpades]

This is huge positive very good day for baseball. The Yankee money did not prevail.

SoCal

Instead the Phillies money prevailed:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5917145

So it's either 5 years for $132.5 (26.5 per year) or 6 years for $147.5 (just north of 24.5).

[ncexnyc]

As a Yankees fan I hope they bite the bullet on this one and don't do anything dumb. Let's give the young kids a full season to show what they actually can or can't do and then move on from there. I think OF is right, that the team should bolster the bullpen, pull a Sparky Anderson, Big Red Machine with Joe being the new Captain Hook.

I like the Sox a lot as Gonzo will be a beast at Fenway. IMO they are the clear favorites in the AL East.

[Deslok]

A couple of notes since my initial post. With the Red Sox lefty dominated lineup, not getting Lee is a very big deal for the Yankees. Had it been a race to sign someone like Adam Wainwright, an excellent pitcher who isn't too old but throws right handed, the Yankees could have shrugged it off more easily and moved on. This is more difficult. Its also compounded by the fact that, from everything I saw and read at the end of the season, indications are that Pettitte is more likely to retire than to come back for another year. That would be another hole in the Yankees rotation(and another lefthander too). And, IIRC, there really is no one of significance on the free agent market next year either, I seem to recall Erwin Santana being the best available according to some. The Yankees have some talent in the minors, but its just reaching the point where they want to use it to plug in for some spot starts on injuries and the like, not be forced to throw into the regular rotation and face those struggles.

Clearly its a big setback for the Yankees. Its not like its a nail in the coffin though. They'll still be expected to make the playoffs(especially with the step backwards that Tampa should take), but the projection will put them as the wild card, not the division winner, and not advancing far. But that's just projections which makes the hot stove league action fun(or at least fun when the Red Sox get in on some of the good action).

[Blue in the Face]

Instead the Phillies money prevailed:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5917145

So it's either 5 years for $132.5 (26.5 per year) or 6 years for $147.5 (just north of 24.5).
I don't think that's quite accurate. His contract is $120MM for 5 years inclusive of his buyout, so $24MM aav, or $135MM for 6 years, a $22.5MM aav.

[InSpades]

I don't think that's quite accurate. His contract is $120MM for 5 years inclusive of his buyout, so $24MM aav, or $135MM for 6 years, a $22.5MM aav.

That's not how I read the article (though I could easily be reading it wrong). Usually when quoting a contract w/ an option you don't include the buyout, do you?

Anyway... I'd be happy if the Yankees just signed Pettitte and brought back Kerry Wood. I don't see anything wrong with letting Ivan Nova (or another youngster) try his hand at the #5 starter spot. Certainly more productive than signing Pavano or trading for a guy who might not be all that good. There's always time later in the year to pick up a stud pitcher if need be.

If they can't lure Pettitte back then they would need to do something a bit more drastic :).

[Duvall]

I'm told that the Yankees may use some of the free agent money budgeted for Lee to re-sign Kerry Wood. That would bolster the bullpen and maybe free up Joba Chamberlain to return to the starting rotation. I'm also told that the Yankees are VERY unlikely to get involved in the chase for Zack Grienke -- they're scared of his anxiety disorder.


But they aren't scared of Joba's mediocre pitching disorder? Kind of odd.

If Pettitte insists on retiring it could kind of a surreal season for the Yankees. Lineup stacked with Hall of Famers, rotation stacked with bums and stiffs.

[Blue in the Face]

That's not how I read the article (though I could easily be reading it wrong). Usually when quoting a contract w/ an option you don't include the buyout, do you?

Well, they did refer to the $120MM as guaranteed, which I think could be construed to mean it's the bare minimum, which would include the option. But the article may just have been unclear - what I posted has been written elsewhere, including the twitter feed (I know, I just can't help myself sometimes) of the guy who wrote it.

[Blue in the Face]

I'm told that the Yankees may use some of the free agent money budgeted for Lee to re-sign Kerry Wood. That would bolster the bullpen and maybe free up Joba Chamberlain to return to the starting rotation.
I would be very surprised to see Joba starting again.

[Olympic Fan]

But they aren't scared of Joba's mediocre pitching disorder? Kind of odd.

If Pettitte insists on retiring it could kind of a surreal season for the Yankees. Lineup stacked with Hall of Famers, rotation stacked with bums and stiffs.

I agree that the Yankee rotation is a bit fragile right now, but "bums and stiffs"?

Let's look at the Yankee starters as of today:

(1) C.C. Sabathia -- Here's a horse. He's averaged 250 IP over the last five seasons and had won 40 regular season games in two seasons with the Yankees. The last two years, he's been 3rd and 4th in the AL Cy Young voting. The definition of an ace. Plus, he just turned 30 years old -- he's younger than Cliff Lee!

(2) Phil Hughes -- Blossomed last season at age 24 -- 18-8 with a 1.248 WHIP. Great first half, but faded a bit in the second half and finished with a pedestrian 4.19 ERA. Still considering his age and his 2010 breakthrough, I fell very good about his potenial.

(3) A.J. Burnett -- Here's the first flashing red light. Midway though the 2010 season, Burnett lost it. He is just 33 and I haven't heard reports to arm trouble. The guy was a solid, above-average pitcher going into last season -- 31-19 over the previous two years. Getting him straighened out is a big concern for the Yankees.

(4) Andy Pettitte -- through the first half of the season, he was one of the five best starters in the AL (he finished 11-3 with a 3.28 ERA). Then he got hurt. A sign of age or just a fluke injury? At least it wasn't his arm. In view of Lee's decision, it's vital to re-sign him. If he's back and anywhere close to what he was through the first half of last year, he'll be a solid addition to the rotation.

(5) Ivan Nova -- a 6-4 23-year-old with great speed ... he's a first-rate prospect who got a taste last season (1-2, 4.50 ERA in 42 innings). A promising young pitcher ... I wouldn't feel bad if he's the number five starter.

That's not a bad rotation. But I agree that it is fragile. And the real problem is the lack of options behind those five. If Pettite doesn't re-sign or Burnett can't straighten himself out or Nova goes bust, what do the Yankees do?

I trhink the next option (that's in the system) is Chamberlain. He's like Burnett in that he's so screwed up it's hard to remember that the Yankees once lost the chance to trade for Santana because they woulodn't include Chamberlain in the deal. I think he's looked better as a starter (in 2007 and 2009) than he has in the pen. I wish the Yankees would just let him go out there and pitch and stop worrying about "the Chamberlain Rules." He's still just 24 years old. It's time to either turn him lose or to trade him and move on.

Actually, I'd like to see Cashman deal for a couple of young arms. I don't claim to know who he should deal with or what he should give up or who he should deal for -- as I said earlier, the Yankees have major concerns about Gienke's anxiety disorder. The next best starter on the block is reported to be Matt Garza, but I doubt the Rays would trade him within the Division (and especially not to the Yankees). I hear there may be some blast from the past -- Chin-Ming Wang? Mark Prior? -- but those are the most extreme of longshots.

PS As for the Yankees getting Russell Martin, I heard Cashman explain his plan the other day. He expects to go into next season with Martin, Montera and Posada at catcher and DH. He said that you have 300-plus games available at the two positions and that those three players would split those 300-324 games. Obviously, Martin (a gold glove catcher) would get most of his time at catcher with Posada (who became a defensive liability a few years ago) and Montera (who is still probably not ready as a catcher, although his bat is more than ready), getting a majority of their time at DH with just a little catching thrown in.

The whole deal is bad news for Cervilli, who is now expendable.

[Duvall]

That's not how I read the article (though I could easily be reading it wrong). Usually when quoting a contract w/ an option you don't include the buyout, do you?

Anyway... I'd be happy if the Yankees just signed Pettitte and brought back Kerry Wood. I don't see anything wrong with letting Ivan Nova (or another youngster) try his hand at the #5 starter spot. Certainly more productive than signing Pavano or trading for a guy who might not be all that good. There's always time later in the year to pick up a stud pitcher if need be.

If they can't lure Pettitte back then they would need to do something a bit more drastic :).

Another option (http://twitter.com/jcrasnick/status/14816884142645249). Hey, why not.

[SoCalDukeFan]

I don't think that's quite accurate. His contract is $120MM for 5 years inclusive of his buyout, so $24MM aav, or $135MM for 6 years, a $22.5MM aav.

This is a player that the Yankees wanted. The deal was all money. They did not get the deal done.

SoCal

[Duvall]

This is a player that the Yankees wanted. The deal was all money. They did not get the deal done.

SoCal

I guess I'm having a hard time seeing why it's a good thing for the sport to see the Yankees outbid for players by the two or three teams that are almost as flush with cash as the Yankees but are much better run.

[77devil]

I guess I'm having a hard time seeing why it's a good thing for the sport to see the Yankees outbid for players by the two or three teams that are almost as flush with cash as the Yankees but are much better run.

You answered your own question-much better run. And to the extent that a certain owner of the Phillies chooses to spend it, they are a lot more flush with cash than the Yankees.

[JasonEvans]

You answered your own question-much better run. And to the extent that a certain owner of the Phillies chooses to spend it, they are a lot more flush with cash than the Yankees.

Are you referring to John Middleton? Middleton sold his cigar business for almost $3 billion a few year back. If he chose to break the bank to sign Lee, he could do it without really batting an eye.

-Jason "baseball is all about the benjamins!" Evans

[77devil]

Are you referring to John Middleton? Middleton sold his cigar business for almost $3 billion a few year back. If he chose to break the bank to sign Lee, he could do it without really batting an eye.

-Jason "baseball is all about the benjamins!" Evans

Ding, ding, ding. Jason, I am impressed. Can't remember what was reported in the press at the time, but John sold the business for considerably more than 3 billion and it was an all cash deal.

[SoCalDukeFan]

I guess I'm having a hard time seeing why it's a good thing for the sport to see the Yankees outbid for players by the two or three teams that are almost as flush with cash as the Yankees but are much better run.

Everything I read that seems credible says that Lee left money on the table when he signed with the Phillies. So the Yankees were not outbid moneywise.

As someone else wrote, for the rest you answered your own question.

SoCal

[InSpades]

Everything I read that seems credible says that Lee left money on the table when he signed with the Phillies. So the Yankees were not outbid moneywise.

As someone else wrote, for the rest you answered your own question.

SoCal

It's not like he signed a 3 year $60M year to stay in Texas. The deal is still ridiculously large and there are only a select number of teams that could afford to pay him that. It's not like he's the 1st guy to ever take a deal for slightly less money.

[JasonEvans]

It's not like he signed a 3 year $60M year to stay in Texas. The deal is still ridiculously large and there are only a select number of teams that could afford to pay him that. It's not like he's the 1st guy to ever take a deal for slightly less money.

I say again what I said earlier, Lee's deal with Philly is for more per year than the deal the Yankees were offering. Lee only left money on the table if he does not make millions when he is done with this contract. He will be 37 when this contract is done. Unless his performance is poor, he is very likely to sign another lucrative deal at that time.

--Jason "the reality is that the Phillies have now joined a few other teams (Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Cubs) who spend about 50-100% more than just about every other team in baseball" Evans

[InSpades]

I say again what I said earlier, Lee's deal with Philly is for more per year than the deal the Yankees were offering. Lee only left money on the table if he does not make millions when he is done with this contract. He will be 37 when this contract is done. Unless his performance is poor, he is very likely to sign another lucrative deal at that time.


From what I read the Phillies deal is $11M, $21.5, $25, $25, $25. So the $120 over 5 did include the $12.5 buyout (as mentioned above). The last year is $27.5 if the option vests (which is 400 innings over last 2, or 200 in last 1).

The Yankees last offer was reportedly $132 over 6 w/ a player option of $16M.

So what he left on the table was guaranteed money. Potentially as much as $28M of it. On a per year basis, he's going to be making more with the Phillies no matter how it shakes out ($22.5M w/ the Phillies if he plays all 6 years vs. $22M w/ the Yankees if he opts out after 6). If he only plays 5 w/ the Phillies then he's getting $24 per year, if he exercised the 7th year w/ the Yankees he's making only slight more than $21 per year.

Of course as Jason mentions, if he is still pitching well 6 years from now, he will make more money w/ the Phillies than he'd make w/ the Yankees (he'd only have to make $13M in the 7th year to break even).

[tommy]

PS As for the Yankees getting Russell Martin, I heard Cashman explain his plan the other day. He expects to go into next season with Martin, Montera and Posada at catcher and DH. He said that you have 300-plus games available at the two positions and that those three players would split those 300-324 games. Obviously, Martin (a gold glove catcher) would get most of his time at catcher with Posada (who became a defensive liability a few years ago) and Montera (who is still probably not ready as a catcher, although his bat is more than ready), getting a majority of their time at DH with just a little catching thrown in.

The whole deal is bad news for Cervilli, who is now expendable.

I don't view the Martin move as significant. Yes, he won a Gold Glove, but that was in 2007. He's entering what should be his prime years, but his numbers have tumbled precipitously over the last four years. Since 2007 his HR's have gone from 19 to 13 to 7 to 5 (in 331 AB's) and his average has declined from .293 all the way down to .248 last year. It was .250 the year before that, which was a healthy year for him. Those are pretty weak hitting numbers for a catcher, and they're going in the wrong direction.

And he's a career .224 hitter in postseason play, with 1 HR in 19 games.

And now he has to hit against the superior pitching in the AL. I would not expect a whole lot from Martin if I were a Yankee fan.

They're pretty well stocked with catchers in the high minors, IIRC. If I were the Yankees, I might consider bringing up a couple of the young guys and whichever is the most ready, put him in there and let him play. Little will be expected so the pressure would be low (low for the Yankees, that is.) But that would seem to make more sense than trying to coax another productive year out of Posada and his diminishing skills, or trying to revive Martin's career.

[Blue in the Face]

They're pretty well stocked with catchers in the high minors, IIRC. If I were the Yankees, I might consider bringing up a couple of the young guys and whichever is the most ready, put him in there and let him play.
Yeah, that was the plan, at least the publicly stated plan, before they even started talking to Martin, so I suspect they'd still love to get Montero a ton of time behind the plate. Obviously it would be great if Martin can get back to the level of production he had a few years ago, but more likely they give Montero as much time as he can handle, and Martin is a far superior option to Cervelli, allowing them to be as patient as needed while still being able to keep Posada out from behind the plate.

[ncexnyc]

Welllllllll, it could be that:
A. Martin is a stop gap measure until Montero proves himself.
B. They will treat Montero like the Nats did Strasburg due to the arbitration rules.
C. They are considering using their catching prospects for trade bait.
D. None of the above.
:D

[Deslok]

In addition to all the above mentioned valid reasons for the Yankees to sign Martin, I do have to wonder if it also might have been a bit of a move to keep at least one spot uncertain for the Sox. Catcher is the one area where the Red Sox really don't have great options, and nothing on the horizon in the minors either. Right now they are going in with Saltalamacchia as their primary, and signed Varitek for one more year to back him up. I don't think anyone looks at the combo and thinks "there is a pennant winning backstop." Martin would have been a nice, relatively inexpensive signing that would have give Boston options they now don't have. The Yankees had other options, but it made sense to give themselves more choices, and its a bonus that it makes things a bit more uncomfortable for Boston(if Salty gets injured, where do the Red Sox go? Varitek for 100+ games? Ouch.).

[tommy]

I'm told that the Yankees may use some of the free agent money budgeted for Lee to re-sign Kerry Wood. That would bolster the bullpen and maybe free up Joba Chamberlain to return to the starting rotation.

Apparently, you were told wrong. Wood is returning to the Cubs.
http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/story?id=5929709

[Blue in the Face]

Apparently, you were told wrong. Wood is returning to the Cubs.
http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/story?id=5929709
Wow, Wood really must have been dying to get back to Chicago, that's a sweetheart deal for the Cubs.

[Olympic Fan]

Apparently the asking price for Kerry was too much -- hard as it is to believe, the Yankees in this post-Boss era DO have a budget.

For the same reason, they backed off Fuentes.

They did, however, come to agreement with lefty reliever Pedro Feliciano:

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/yankees/feliciano_moves_across_town_signs_Iegkjqmi5jF6LKwK ueR9UJ

A minor pickup, but a good one.

PS: Tim Marchman of SI has an interesting take on the Russell Martin signing:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/tim_marchman/12/16/hot.stove.roundup/index.html?eref=sihp

His point is that two years ago, Martin looked like the best young catcher in baseball. Instead of taking off, he's fallen back a bit. Marchman suggests that our disappointment over his failure to mature into a star has colored the perception of the guy -- that he's still one of the best dozen catchers in baseball.

To relate it to Duke basketball, it reminds me of all the people who thought the program had fallen on hard times in 2008 and 2009 when the team was winning 28-30 games and finishing in the top 10 every year. Martin is like that -- he's gone from a Final Four level player to a Sweet 16 player ... and everybody thinks he's a bust!

[SoCalDukeFan]

Apparently the asking price for Kerry was too much -- hard as it is to believe, the Yankees in this post-Boss era DO have a budget.

For the same reason, they backed off Fuentes.

They did, however, come to agreement with lefty reliever Pedro Feliciano:

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/yankees/feliciano_moves_across_town_signs_Iegkjqmi5jF6LKwK ueR9UJ

A minor pickup, but a good one.

PS: Tim Marchman of SI has an interesting take on the Russell Martin signing:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/tim_marchman/12/16/hot.stove.roundup/index.html?eref=sihp

His point is that two years ago, Martin looked like the best young catcher in baseball. Instead of taking off, he's fallen back a bit. Marchman suggests that our disappointment over his failure to mature into a star has colored the perception of the guy -- that he's still one of the best dozen catchers in baseball.

To relate it to Duke basketball, it reminds me of all the people who thought the program had fallen on hard times in 2008 and 2009 when the team was winning 28-30 games and finishing in the top 10 every year. Martin is like that -- he's gone from a Final Four level player to a Sweet 16 player ... and everybody thinks he's a bust!

I live in LA and agree that Martin is still a good catcher. I also think he was an excellent pick up for the Yankees as he can bridge between Posada and their young guy.

The difference between Duke and Martin though is that we knew that will a little luck Duke could be much better than 2008/2009. Martin's best years may be behind him.

SoCal

[Duvall]

It's great to be Greinke (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5935586&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines) - he just got liberated from the Royals and dealt to Milwaukee.

Maybe the Yankee rotation isn't so bad. They do have one of the three or four decent pitchers left in the junior circuit.

[Olympic Fan]

It's great to be Greinke (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5935586&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines) - he just got liberated from the Royals and dealt to Milwaukee.

Maybe the Yankee rotation isn't so bad. They do have one of the three or four decent pitchers left in the junior circuit.

Let's be honest -- if Pettite returns, the Yankees have a decent -- but paper thin -- rotation. If he doesn't return, Nova and Mitre are the back end of the rotation (shudder!).

This is where Cashman has to earn his salary -- by actually dealing for one or two quality starters, rather than merely throwing money at the problem. As great as it would be to add an ace, that's just not likely to happen (at least until midseason, when there may be a salary dump or two).

But the Yankees already have an ace in Sabathia ... the key is adding middle-of-the-rotation arms.

I see that Ricky Nolasco is on the market after reaching salary impasse with the Marlins. He's what I'm talking about -- no ace, but he's gone 15-8, 13-9, 14-9 (with a mediocre Florida team) the last three years. He's a 28-year-old righthander.

The problem for Cashman is what kind of package can he put together for the Marlins? The Yankee minor league system is strong, especially in catching (Montero and Romine are Grade A prospects) and pitching (the three Killer Bs are all prime prospects). There's some talk that the Yankees should wait on Manny Banuelos, Dellin Betances and/or Andrew Brackman to arrive. The problem is that none are quite ready (and young pitching is a notorious gamble), but all three -- especially Banuelos are extremely coveted.

I wouldn't give up a B for Nolasco, but he'd be worth a lot. I wonder if Josh Chamberlain has any trade value these days? He's still young and healthy with a ton of potential. No question the Yankees have messed him up ... but maybe somebody thinks that with a fresh start, he could be worth something.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see if Cashman can improve this club. As of today, they are a good team, but just being good is not what the Yankees are all about.

[ncexnyc]

Let's be honest -- if Pettite returns, the Yankees have a decent -- but paper thin -- rotation. If he doesn't return, Nova and Mitre are the back end of the rotation (shudder!).

This is where Cashman has to earn his salary -- by actually dealing for one or two quality starters, rather than merely throwing money at the problem. As great as it would be to add an ace, that's just not likely to happen (at least until midseason, when there may be a salary dump or two).

But the Yankees already have an ace in Sabathia ... the key is adding middle-of-the-rotation arms.

I see that Ricky Nolasco is on the market after reaching salary impasse with the Marlins. He's what I'm talking about -- no ace, but he's gone 15-8, 13-9, 14-9 (with a mediocre Florida team) the last three years. He's a 28-year-old righthander.

The problem for Cashman is what kind of package can he put together for the Marlins? The Yankee minor league system is strong, especially in catching (Montero and Romine are Grade A prospects) and pitching (the three Killer Bs are all prime prospects). There's some talk that the Yankees should wait on Manny Banuelos, Dellin Betances and/or Andrew Brackman to arrive. The problem is that none are quite ready (and young pitching is a notorious gamble), but all three -- especially Banuelos are extremely coveted.

I wouldn't give up a B for Nolasco, but he'd be worth a lot. I wonder if Josh Chamberlain has any trade value these days? He's still young and healthy with a ton of potential. No question the Yankees have messed him up ... but maybe somebody thinks that with a fresh start, he could be worth something.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see if Cashman can improve this club. As of today, they are a good team, but just being good is not what the Yankees are all about.

Sorry, but why the desperation? I don't see the need to do anything rash. The Yankees should be good enough for a wildcard and as you said if they are anywhere close come the trade deadline they can score a decent pitcher when teams are dumping salary. Bite the bullet and let the chips fall where they may, it's time to let all these young players show what they can or can't do.

[Duvall]

Apparently the asking price for Kerry was too much -- hard as it is to believe, the Yankees in this post-Boss era DO have a budget.

Maybe. Then again, they did just sign a setup man for $35 million over 3 years (http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/news/story?id=6020119).

[InSpades]

Kerry Wood was never about money I don't think. He signed for $1.5M w/ the Cubs? Way under market. I remember reading that he wanted to go back to Chicago for family reasons.

The Soriano deal is interesting. Hopefully he pitches as well this year as he did last year. My questions would be how he does now that he's in non-save situations and can he pitch more than 1 inning.

[Olympic Fan]

Maybe. Then again, they did just sign a setup man for $35 million over 3 years (http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/news/story?id=6020119).

From reading the Yankee fan sites and the New York media, it sounds like Cashman got overruled by the owners when it comes to Soriano. The Yankee GM didn't want to give big money or a No. 1 draft pick for another closer, but with the Red Sox improving so much, Hank Steinbrenner apparenrly thought the Yanks needed to do something.

It's an interesting deal -- $35 million for three years if Soriano stays three years, but he can opt out after one year (for a total of $11.5 million) or two years ($22 million). Apparently, the plan is that Rivera will pitch two more years, the Soriano will take over as the closer in 2013. The interesting thing is that Soriano and Rivera are good friends and they worked together to set this up ... it's almost like Mo is hand-picking his successor.

Of course, three years is a long time to for two aging pitchers (Mo is 41 ... Soriano just turned 31), so we'll have to see where it works out. But for now, the bullpen might be the best in baseball with Rivera and Soriano -- the two best closers in the AL last season -- together with Feliciano, Robertson, Chamerlain ...

I'm sure the Yankees still have moves to make. The next one on the horizon appears to be a deal for a fourth outfielder ... Andruw Jones, who had a modest comeback last year with the White Sox (.847 OPS in 107 games) appears to be the target. He's still a plus defender (although no longer the wizard he was in CF with Atlanta, when by some defensive metrics was the greatest defensive CF of all time) and he offers a right-handed bat. Amazing that he's still just 33 years old.

I still have nightmares about the back end of the rotation.

[Duvall]

The Soriano deal is interesting. Hopefully he pitches as well this year as he did last year. My questions would be how he does now that he's in non-save situations and can he pitch more than 1 inning.

As I recall, Soriano pitched well when he was splitting the closer role with Mike Gonzalez in Atlanta. The question probably isn't how well he'll pitch, but how much he'll pitch.

[Blue in the Face]

It's an interesting deal -- $35 million for three years if Soriano stays three years, but he can opt out after one year (for a total of $11.5 million) or two years ($22 million).
A risk for the yanks regarding those player options is the possibility that a new cba will change or eliminate draft pick compensation for losing free agents. I don't know how likely that is, but I've seen it mentioned in various articles. It would obviously make Soriano more attractive than he was this off-season, at least assuming he continues to pitch well, and it would be a pretty steep price to have paid for 1 season if he chose to leave next winter without compensation. Of course, it's a pretty rich contract to begin with, so even if there were no compensation involved, he'd be hard pressed to find a better deal by leaving. Probably not a very significant risk, but it does annoy me that even after their experience with A-Rod, the yanks continue to toss these cherries on top of fat contracts allowing guys to walk if they want to.

[Duvall]

Per Michael Kay, Andy Pettitte will retire tomorrow (http://twitter.com/KayShowESPN/status/33212396327673856).

[Olympic Fan]

Per Michael Kay, Andy Pettitte will retire tomorrow (http://twitter.com/KayShowESPN/status/33212396327673856).

Well, that's a blow -- almost as big a blow as losing out on the Cliff Lee auction.

That leaves the back end of the Yankee rotation as mess -- and even the middle (Burnett and Hughes) is kind of tenuous.

Will we really go into next season witb Nova and Mitre as our No. 4 and No. 5 starters?

Well, our best options appear to be a trio of kids who probaby aren't ready (the Killer Bs) or two aging former aces who are both coming off injuries -- Bartolo Colon and Freddie Garcia.

Both pitched for the White Sox last year. Colon hasn't been effective since he won the Cy Young in 2005. He was 3-6 with 4.19 ERA in 62 innings for the White Sox last year. I feel a little better about Garcia, who was 12-6 (albiet with a high 4.67 ERA) in 157 innings with the White Sox. That was basically his best year since 2006 and maybe a sign that he's bouncing back.

The Yankees also have a reclamation project in Mark Prior, although he's slated for the bullpen.

Whatever happens, none of the three cost much, so there is little risk in signing them. It is, however, a mark of our desperation to fill a rotation that gives Yankee fans nightmares -- more so now that Pettitte is gone.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Well, let's hope that this is Andy's "Brett Favre" moment... :cool:

[Olympic Fan]

Well, let's hope that this is Andy's "Brett Favre" moment... :cool:

Believe me, if Andy decides to pull a Farve, I won't complain.

I've been thinking about this, trying to put a positive spin on things. I see a couple of things that make me feel better about our questionable starting rotation:

(1) Our offense and our bullpen will be so good (on paper, the best pen in baseball), that we won't need GREAT starting pitching ...

(2) If things start badly for the rotation, there's a good likihood of some quality arms being available in June -- over the last three years Sabathia, Holiday and Lee have moved at midseason (among others).

(3) By the second half of the season, at least one and maybe two of the Killer Bs will be ready.

(4) Joba Chamberlain ... I know they keep saying he's still in the bullpen (and there's some rumors about a shoulder injury), but darn it, his arm is too good and he's just 24 years old. I've got to think he could help more as a No. 5 starter than a middle reliever.

(5) The chance (hope?) that Pettitte imitates his friend Clemons and unretires in June.