Getting around the rules (aka: Miss St. ethics)

[JasonEvans]

Hmmm, I am not sure how I feel about this story (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news;_ylt=AqEds_fJQmZk3vfjpnemGRzevbYF?slug=jn-sec121010) about Mississippi State.

Their best player, Dee Bost, declared for the draft and did not withdraw his name in time. So, the NCAA suspended him for 9 games. He was already academically ineligible for the first semester so he cannot begin serving his 9 game suspension until the first semester is over. So, Mississippi St loaded their schedule with 5 games in 5 days starting tomorrow in an effort to take care of the suspension against lesser teams and have Bost available for the SEC schedule starting in January.

Miss St has only played 5 games so far this season. Most teams are at 7 or 8.

On the one hand, I can see why a coach would do this. Of course it is best for the team to be at full strength for the conference season. If Bost -- who averaged 13 ppg, 4+ rpg, and 5+ apg last season -- were to miss some SEC games, not only would it hurt MSU but it would create an imbalance in the SEC schedule, giving some SEC rivals easier games than others.

On the other hand, when the NCAA put in a penalty like this, the intent is not to allow coaches and teams to mess with the schedule to get around it. Add in the fact that this strange scheduling is the result of Bost not paying attention to his studies and it makes the situation even worse. It is almost like MSU is saying, "the penalties the NCAA puts in place for trying to be a pro and for bad grades are something to try to get around, not something to honor."

--Jason "I am interested in the opinion of others on this" Evans

[CameronBornAndBred]

5 games in 5 days is a lot for any team/athlete. I would think the chance of someone getting hurt would be greater. Not predicting that it will happen, but it would be interesting karma if in trying to skirt the rules to get one player back, they lose one or more due to injury.

[SilkyJ]

I'm wish washy on this one. My thoughts are that its semi-shady, but in no way deserves punishment. It doesn't send the greatest message (i.e. not honoring the spirit of the punishment) but if the coach wants to subject his team to that, its his prerogative. Moreover, not all suspensions are created equal, and suspending a kid for 9 games b/c he wanted to test the waters and didn't pull his name out in time seems harsh. If the kid tries to pursue his dream for an extra week, does he really deserve to miss 25% of the season?

[ajgoodfella7]

Hmmm, I am not sure how I feel about this story (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news;_ylt=AqEds_fJQmZk3vfjpnemGRzevbYF?slug=jn-sec121010) about Mississippi State.

Their best player, Dee Bost, declared for the draft and did not withdraw his name in time. So, the NCAA suspended him for 9 games. He was already academically ineligible for the first semester so he cannot begin serving his 9 game suspension until the first semester is over. So, Mississippi St loaded their schedule with 5 games in 5 days starting tomorrow in an effort to take care of the suspension against lesser teams and have Bost available for the SEC schedule starting in January.

Miss St has only played 5 games so far this season. Most teams are at 7 or 8.

On the one hand, I can see why a coach would do this. Of course it is best for the team to be at full strength for the conference season. If Bost -- who averaged 13 ppg, 4+ rpg, and 5+ apg last season -- were to miss some SEC games, not only would it hurt MSU but it would create an imbalance in the SEC schedule, giving some SEC rivals easier games than others.

On the other hand, when the NCAA put in a penalty like this, the intent is not to allow coaches and teams to mess with the schedule to get around it. Add in the fact that this strange scheduling is the result of Bost not paying attention to his studies and it makes the situation even worse. It is almost like MSU is saying, "the penalties the NCAA puts in place for trying to be a pro and for bad grades are something to try to get around, not something to honor."

--Jason "I am interested in the opinion of others on this" Evans

I think obviously it is ethically the wrong thing for MSU to do. Realistically speaking though, I'm sure there are plenty of other schools out there that would try to schedule the same way in a similar situation. Luckily we would never have to worry about anything like this, but it is disconcerting to see the state of amateur athletics around the country at present. Every day there is negative national news about one thing or another and its been getting a little out of hand recently.

[mgtr]

My wife and I are avid Duke basketball fans (not newcomers!), but we have no connection to Duke whatsoever. A major part of the reason are the high standards set by Coach K. I cannot foresee a possibility of Duke BB ever being caught up in the kind of messes which have become all too common in the sport.
Of course we mainly enjoy the quality of basketball that Duke plays, win or lose. While we enjoyed last year's national championship, we would be no less enthusiastic this year if they had lost at some point along the way. But we are happy that they won!

[SCMatt33]

I think Miss St. is outsmarting themselves here. There is a much greater risk of losing to a bad team when you play that many games in a row. As mentioned earlier, there is a greater risk of players getting hurt. If they do lose one of those games, the committee won't take it into account if they're on the bubble since the committee doesn't usually treat suspensions like injuries. The SEC west is bad enough that it might not be that different than their crappy schedule anyway. For me, this gets nowhere near the list of "things that are shady or wrong with college basketball."

Also, looking at the schedule on KenPom and ESPN, there are only 4 games in 4 days. I do remember something about a mid season exhibition so that could be the 5th, but maybe someone knows for sure.

Let's say that since many reasonable teams have played 7 games that Mississippi could have done that instead. That would delay his return by 2 games. Those two games are Auburn and Georgia. I'm pretty sure that they don't need him against Auburn, so they are really pressing themselves to get Bost back for one tough game. It just doesn't seem worth it to me.

[Verga3]

Head Coach, Rick Stansbury...“Back when we made the schedule it was more appealing than it is now,” Stansbury said. “But we wouldn’t change it. For us to make some things work and to get where we need to be, this is what we needed to do.”

MSU AD and Coach Stansbury should have a meeting to discuss ethical dilemmas and how best to uphold the integrity of a program for student-athletes.

These hard decisions reveal individual character and institutional priority. Interesting.

[ajgoodfella7]

Head Coach, Rick Stansbury...“Back when we made the schedule it was more appealing than it is now,” Stansbury said. “But we wouldn’t change it. For us to make some things work and to get where we need to be, this is what we needed to do.”

MSU AD and Coach Stansbury should have a meeting to discuss ethical dilemmas and how best to uphold the integrity of a program for student-athletes.

These hard decisions reveal individual character and institutional priority. Interesting.

At least the man is standing behind his decisions and not running away from them or skating around them. I'll give him props for that.

[gam7]

I think Miss St. is outsmarting themselves here. There is a much greater risk of losing to a bad team when you play that many games in a row. As mentioned earlier, there is a greater risk of players getting hurt. If they do lose one of those games, the committee won't take it into account if they're on the bubble since the committee doesn't usually treat suspensions like injuries. The SEC west is bad enough that it might not be that different than their crappy schedule anyway. For me, this gets nowhere near the list of "things that are shady or wrong with college basketball."

Also, looking at the schedule on KenPom and ESPN, there are only 4 games in 4 days. I do remember something about a mid season exhibition so that could be the 5th, but maybe someone knows for sure.

Let's say that since many reasonable teams have played 7 games that Mississippi could have done that instead. That would delay his return by 2 games. Those two games are Auburn and Georgia. I'm pretty sure that they don't need him against Auburn, so they are really pressing themselves to get Bost back for one tough game. It just doesn't seem worth it to me.


There are actually two nine-game suspensions at play here - Bost's and Renardo Sidney's. You are right - they play four games in four days, after which Sidney will be finished serving his suspension (the team will have played nine games by then). They play an exhibition game on the fifth day in which Sidney and Bost will both be allowed to play but will not count against Bost's suspension. Then, they play Virginia Tech in the Bahamas (Bost's game 5; Sidney's first game), participate in the Diamond Head Classic in Hawaii, in which they are guaranteed to play three games (Bost's games 6-8), and then St. Mary's on 12/29 (Bost's game 9).

Brutal stretch. I don't have a problem with their scheduling it this way though. Coaches manipulate their schedules to suit what they consider to be best for their teams each year anyway. Also, four games in four days is not unprecedented. For any ACC team (other than the top 4 seeds) to win the ACC tourament, it will have to win games on four consecutive days. I wouldn't necessarily expect an injury because of it.

It actually reminds me a bit of the gamesmanship related to the suspensions of pitchers in baseball, which is par-for-the-course. If a pitcher gets suspended (for throwing at someone, for e.g.), the team will adjust its rotation in such a way that the suspended pitcher will be due to pitch on the day he comes off of his suspension. Teams also appeal suspensions until they hit a stretch in the schedule where the pitcher will be least likely to be needed and then promptly drop the appeal and begin serving the suspension. I don't have a problem with this sort of gamesmanship either.

If the NCAA wanted to do something about this sort of thing, couldn't they impose a penalty that specifically suspends a player for conference games? I've never seen this, but I don't know why they couldn't.

[uh_no]

Also, four games in four days is not unprecedented. For any ACC team (other than the top 4 seeds) to win the ACC tourament, it will have to win games on four consecutive days.


Anyone from the bottom half of the big east has to play 5 in 5 to win....

[Duvall]

Renardo Sidney suspended indefinitely by Mississippi State (http://twitter.com/davidbrandtAP/status/17322944355106816).

[ajgoodfella7]

Renardo Sidney suspended indefinitely by Mississippi State (http://twitter.com/davidbrandtAP/status/17322944355106816).

That kid is just bad news. Sucks for MSU, but they knew what they were getting into from the beginning.

[CEF1959]

Renardo Sidney suspended indefinitely by Mississippi State (http://twitter.com/davidbrandtAP/status/17322944355106816).

Looks like MSU corrected it to just a one game suspension? http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2010/12/renardo-sidney-mississippi-state-indefinite-suspension/1

[JasonEvans]

By the way, for anyone wondering, Miss St lost the first of their 5-games-in-5-days experiment... but won the next 4. Make sense out of that ;)

-Jason "I actually hope they start playing well as it will make Va Tech's win look better" Evans

[ajgoodfella7]

Renardo Sidney brawls with his own teammate in the stands:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5953513

[JMarley50]

Renardo Sidney brawls with his own teammate in the stands:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5953513


That is a huge slap in the face to the program! They bent over backwards to try and give this kid a chance, and that's how he repays them.... I hope the young man can learn a lesson and turn his life into something positive. Regardless I'd say his basketball career is over!

[hurley1]

Two miss st. players started fighting each other last night in hawaii at the games.......of course, nobody was arrested.........one of the players, Sidney, has already had all kinds of issues........i can only imagine what would happen if 2 duke players did this.......

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/24/renardo-sidney-elgin-bailey-fight_n_801069.html

[sagegrouse]

Two miss st. players started fighting each other last night in hawaii at the games.......of course, nobody was arrested.........one of the players, Sidney, has already had all kinds of issues........i can only imagine what would happen if 2 duke players did this.......http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/24/renardo-sidney-elgin-bailey-fight_n_801069.html

If two Duke players did this, it would be much, much bigger news and would deserve much bigger play.

With apologies to my friends in Starkville, this tussle involving Sidney gets files under "Suspicions Confirmed."

sagegrouse

[Devilsfan]

The NCAA may just ban them from playing the first five games next season.

[hurley1]

If two Duke players did this, it would be much, much bigger news and would deserve much bigger play.

With apologies to my friends in Starkville, this tussle involving Sidney gets files under "Suspicions Confirmed."

sagegrouse

yes sir.......

[BD80]

...i can only imagine what would happen if 2 duke players did this...

I imagine a tussle between two Duke students would look something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS4bPgwizqc

[CameronBornAndBred]

5 games in 5 days is a lot for any team/athlete. I would think the chance of someone getting hurt would be greater. Not predicting that it will happen, but it would be interesting karma if in trying to skirt the rules to get one player back, they lose one or more due to injury.
Ok...it wasn't an injury, but I still believe in karma.

[hurley1]

Ok...it wasn't an injury, but I still believe in karma.

miss st. will not get far with this type of character on their team........i am anxious to see what level of tarkanian this coach has in him.........

[hurley1]

not jumping to conclusions here, but, is this suggesting 2 games is all these 2 players will get for fighting ???......

Mississippi State suspended sophomore forward Renardo Sidney and junior forward Elgin Bailey indefinitely for their altercation in the stands at the Diamond Head Classic on Thursday night.

The school said both players were sent home from Hawaii and would miss Saturday's game versus Hawaii and Wednesday's game versus Saint Mary's in Las Vegas.

it also says that the suspensions would be determined by the players going forward......what does that mean ???........i believe this guy is kin to tark......

[Duvall]

SEC justice - Sidney returns (http://www.mstateathletics.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=16800&ATCLID=205070723).

[hurley1]

SEC justice - Sidney returns (http://www.mstateathletics.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=16800&ATCLID=205070723).

Should we start calling the NCAA the National Criminal Athletic Assn. yet ???????......This is disgusting......He sent them home.....unfreakingbelieveble !!!!!!

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Wow. Dana ONeill wasn't far from being right. I know this link was posted elsewhere already but for easy reference...

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=oneil_dana&id=5973864

It's almost laughable what is going on these days.

[Verga3]

Where is the Miss. St. AD in all this....his ultimate deal. Anybody heard a comment?

The AD is responsible for his program, right?

[hurley1]

I may be wrong,but, i think the Bailey kid is a pretty good kid and now he has transferred because of this incident. I believe he was one of the captains on the team. When you swap a good kid for a bad kid, you make a bad swap. This coach does absolutely nothing for me. He reminds me of Tark.

[Newton_14]

SEC justice - Sidney returns (http://www.mstateathletics.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=16800&ATCLID=205070723).

Interesting ain't it, that the star player gets reinstated just in time for the conference opener, while the lesser player transfers. Not real hard to see through that. Stansbury is going to take a tremendous rep hit for this one.

[Duvall]

Interesting ain't it, that the star player gets reinstated just in time for the conference opener, while the lesser player transfers. Not real hard to see through that. Stansbury is going to take a tremendous rep hit for this one.

Not sure Stansbury had much of a reputation to lose before this.

[Newton_14]

Not sure Stansbury had much of a reputation to lose before this.

Fair point. Whatever rep he had left is gone now. That's for sure.

[hurley1]

This is the single largest reason that I am a Duke fan. I did not attend Duke and neither did my family. I am not even from N.C. Duke is simply the elite and i admire the elite in anything. How Coach K has developed 18 -22 year old kids for all these years and never had more than a handful of any kinds of problems is just impossible. Discipline, Grades, you name it. Miss. St. has had more problems already this year than Coach K has had in his entire career at Duke. Not to mention, he wins. I love what Duke is.