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View Full Version : Fouls and Duke Big Men



bluepenguin
12-02-2010, 09:20 AM
Is it just me, or do Duke big men seem to be targets of officials? It seems like the refs meet in the off season and decide which Duke big man they are going to whistle wantonly in the next season.
This year, it looks to be Mason. And remember the line about Z was how many fouls he would pick up before stepping into the jump ball circle? IIRC Shavlick Randolph and Josh McRoberts also were prone to this treatment.
Why can't our big men get the Hansblahblah kid glove treatment from the officials?

superdave
12-02-2010, 09:34 AM
Duke puts its bigs in tough positions, like rotating over to help when a wing has gambled for a steal or helping on a backdoor cut. We gamble at the 1-2-3 spots and the big guys often have to make up for it when it goes wrong.

But the current crop of big men have not learned our Team D as well as seniors LT and BZ had so this is not unexpected. I do think Miles has grown a lot in our Team D concept, Ryan just has a high basketball iq and Mason's athleticism can cover up some mistakes though.

Also, complaining about the refs goes both ways and those things tend to even out in the end.

Super "Hansborough should have fouled out of every other game for 4 years" Dave

jgehtland
12-02-2010, 10:30 AM
Hard to argue he is being targeted by the refs. I you meant Miles, maybe. Not Mason.

elvis14
12-02-2010, 11:44 AM
It's not Mason, it's Miles who is this year's Shav. Last night everyone else was allowed to bang in the paint except Miles. I've noticed 2 things this season: 1) Singler can't buy a call 2) Miles gets called for just about everything he does (i.e. this year's Shavlik)

I still think the refs are so afraid of perpetuating the "Duke gets all the calls" myth that they over compensate.

jv001
12-02-2010, 11:54 AM
It's not Mason, it's Miles who is this year's Shav. Last night everyone else was allowed to bang in the paint except Miles. I've noticed 2 things this season: 1) Singler can't buy a call 2) Miles gets called for just about everything he does (i.e. this year's Shavlik)

I still think the refs are so afraid of perpetuating the "Duke gets all the calls" myth that they over compensate.

It started with Billy Packer and ends with Len Elmore. Can't stand either. Go Duke!

hurleyfor3
12-02-2010, 12:04 PM
1) Singler can't buy a call

It seems like there's always a guy like this on our team too. First Dunleavy, then JJ. Now Kyle.

Lar77
12-02-2010, 12:04 PM
It's not Mason, it's Miles who is this year's Shav. Last night everyone else was allowed to bang in the paint except Miles. I've noticed 2 things this season: 1) Singler can't buy a call 2) Miles gets called for just about everything he does (i.e. this year's Shavlik)

I still think the refs are so afraid of perpetuating the "Duke gets all the calls" myth that they over compensate.

Last night's refereeing was awful and inconsistent - both ways - but Miles is definitely getting dinged. I had an MSU alum with me last night who was shocked that Miles was called on his block of Lucas. I wonder if the refs are anticipating the foul.

While we're on the topic of refs, would someone explain why MSU was not called for a walk when #13 rolled on that loose ball before passing to Lucas?

DukeFanSince1990
12-02-2010, 12:14 PM
Last night's refereeing was awful and inconsistent - both ways - but Miles is definitely getting dinged. I had an MSU alum with me last night who was shocked that Miles was called on his block of Lucas. I wonder if the refs are anticipating the foul.

While we're on the topic of refs, would someone explain why MSU was not called for a walk when #13 rolled on that loose ball before passing to Lucas?

I think he took two dribbles, fell (without holding the ball) and during his slide he grabbed the ball again. If he would have fallen while holding the ball it would have been a travel....at first I also thought it was a travel.

PSurprise
12-02-2010, 12:16 PM
Last night's refereeing was awful and inconsistent - both ways - but Miles is definitely getting dinged. I had an MSU alum with me last night who was shocked that Miles was called on his block of Lucas. I wonder if the refs are anticipating the foul.

While we're on the topic of refs, would someone explain why MSU was not called for a walk when #13 rolled on that loose ball before passing to Lucas?

Well, obviously I don't know what the refs said but the announcers (even Dickie V agreed) said that he did not have control of the ball as he fell to the floor. I didn't think that was accurate but that was the explanation I heard.

Beat me to it ^

PADukeMom
12-02-2010, 12:23 PM
I don't have a problem with my bigs getting fouls under the basket; I have a problem with them fouling away from the basket.

oldnavy
12-02-2010, 12:24 PM
I think he took two dribbles, fell (without holding the ball) and during his slide he grabbed the ball again. If he would have fallen while holding the ball it would have been a travel....at first I also thought it was a travel.

It was a travel. Is having control of the ball was a prerequisite for traveling? If not, then you could run down the court bobbling the ball all the way. He was advancing (albeit sliding on his butt) the ball without dribbling and he did not have a pivot foot set. It was clearly traveling, they just missed the call. The fact that Dickie V agreed with the call supports my case!

Orange&BlackSheep
12-02-2010, 12:35 PM
It was a travel. Is having control of the ball was a prerequisite for traveling? If not, then you could run down the court bobbling the ball all the way. He was advancing (albeit sliding on his butt) the ball without dribbling and he did not have a pivot foot set. It was clearly traveling, they just missed the call. The fact that Dickie V agreed with the call supports my case!

Andre (IIRC) tipped the ball loose just before the moment the MSU dude began falling so he did not have control/possession. He fell on the ground and then re-established possession and then passed it. At live action I practically hit the ceiling but once they showed it again I thought the ref had amazingly got the call right.

There were some goofy calls/non-calls here and there, but I did not think the refs were skewed at all one way or the other last night. I think the point about our bigs being asked to do a lot because of the dribble penetration that the perimeter defenders give up is right on point. I trust that the bigs will improve game by game under Coach K/Wojo's tutelage (please please please).

moonpie23
12-02-2010, 12:42 PM
Last night's refereeing was awful and inconsistent

i got two words for you....... KARL FREAKIN HESS!!!!


blow up my comments box, but you ALL know it's true.....

-jk
12-02-2010, 01:01 PM
We had among the most highly qualified refs last night: Karl Hess, John Cahill, and Ed Corbett. All three have worked late in the NCAAs - Cahill called the Duke/Butler game. Hess called UNC's final four semi. Corbett called the '08 championship.

Much as I despise Hess, these guys are at the top of their game.

(Data cribbed from Statsheet (http://statsheet.com/mcb/referees). Take a look - it's fun!)

-jk

gam7
12-02-2010, 01:20 PM
A bigger issue with officiating that absolutely drives me nuts is the tendency for refs to even out calls to some extent when one team is the beneficiary of a lot of calls early in a half. I believe it was in the Duke-K State game where K State committed a ton of fouls early in the first or second half and then about midway through the half, the refs started blowing the whistle for all kinds of ticky tack fouls against Duke. I see this sort of thing happen in NBA games all the time. It's almost as if refs try to make the foul count approximately even, especially in games between evenly matched teams. Drives me nuts.

DukeFanSince1990
12-02-2010, 01:50 PM
It was a travel. Is having control of the ball was a prerequisite for traveling? If not, then you could run down the court bobbling the ball all the way. He was advancing (albeit sliding on his butt) the ball without dribbling and he did not have a pivot foot set. It was clearly traveling, they just missed the call. The fact that Dickie V agreed with the call supports my case!

JJ Redick did the exact same thing one year against UNC I believe. The only difference being he slid to the ball, caught the ball and continued to slide on his back about 4 feet or so. The referee did not call a travel and a UNC buddy of mine screamed to high heavens about the non-call. We looked up the call in the NCAA rule book and it specifically said a player could do that as long as he did not fall with the ball. Falling or standing up with the ball without dribbling is a travel. The MSU player fell without the ball. Good call.

weezie
12-02-2010, 02:07 PM
All the above said, I think any official, good or Hess, is going to hesitate to blow the 5th foul on a senior AA, Player of the Year candidate.
Thank goodness!

greybeard
12-02-2010, 02:17 PM
I think that Miles gets called for more fouls than one would expect because of certain difficulties that I have mentioned previously as restricting his effectiveness as an inside-the-defense and back to the basket scorer.

This is what I just think I see, I think he can improve dramatically, but not through high-end physical or skill training. Let's see if I can put words to it.

In the simplest form, Miles, in many contexts, sees as his only option collecting for a power explosion off the floor that overpowers, gets higher than, an opponent. It is predictable and slow to develop, and often is less powerful than he expects, and is outmatched by quickness and strategic diversity by opponents.

The reason it is less powerful is how Miles organizes for that type action, which I think throws him off balance for the task at hand. It has to do, in my mind, with an upper body bend, the how of it. I think that that contributes, by the way, to a diminished suppleness and diversity in the use of his arms and hands.

I think that Miles originates action from only one initiation point, or a more limited range than his talent would imply. What do I mean? If I ask you to look over your left shoulder, you could originate from the vertebrae nearest your head, from lower in your neck, from somewhere in your upper back, from your pelvis, from your feet, and places in between. The different movements and feels produced by different choices vary dramatically. Such choices are the stuff that nuance is made of. In the world in which the dramatic seems so dominant, it is nuance that often distinguishes effective play from less effective play.

I think also that Miles is limited in his perceptions in certain contexts which might explain some of what I have described above. What one perceives, senses, takes in and trusts defines his reality and the universe of logical responses. When Miles catches inside to the left of the basket with his back to it, I suspect that he sees the only option for getting off a shot that will not require the bend-collection option described above, an option that he must rue, is a jump hook off a slight turn that leaves him with an awful release point and an extremely low percentage shot. I think his perception is that it is his responsibility to attempt to score the ball from such a position, that he must do so quickly before outside help arrives, and takes the one course he knows he can get the ball off in unimpeded fashion.

I think that he simply cannot envision how a single bounce and accompanying slide step to the middle would open up several much, much more potent scoring options, even while it would allow time for help to possibly arrive. But, the arrival of help can be seen as an opportunity, as it is my many inside scorers, not as an impediment--for example, you use the ball as a lure to draw a predicted swipe which you elude through moving the ball away on an unreachable path, and you have a moment of confusion among the defenders that can be exploited. Why a gifted athlete like Miles does not see such options? Who knows. There are many possibilities, and understanding why is not really important. I think improvment must begin with Miles's becoming aware of how he performs that bending movement that is so habitual, and begins to develop options that currently are inaccessible.

Or, it could be the refs, which probably is much more likely the case. :o

UrinalCake
12-02-2010, 02:38 PM
Remember Darius Songalia from Wake Forest? That guy collected fouls like nobody's business. I do think there is such a thing as a player developing a repuation for being a fouler, and the refs are not immune to it. On the other hand, Shelden Williams had established himself as a great shot blocker, so I felt that he often got away with fouls because the refs gave him the benefit of the doubt.

That said, I don't feel like either of the Plumlees (or Zoubek prior to the second half of his senior year) collect an inordinate number of fouls by defending their man straight up. They do collect some, but I don't see as many questionable calls of this type. There are two situations where I see them picking up fouls

- defending guards on the perimeter after a switch. It drives me bananas when a switch happens and then they reach in and try to steal the ball and end up with a foul. This is such a low percentage play; they might get a steal 1 out of 20 times they try this and pick up a foul 10 times.

- reaching around the guy they're defending when an entry pass comes into the post. Again, they're trying to steal the ball, and I guess this goes with the theme of our overplaying defense, but it's a bad way to pick up fouls.

As another poster said, the style of defense we play is tough on big guys and can lead to them picking up a lot of fouls. Hopefully things will click with the Plumlees as it did for Z last year!

UrinalCake
12-02-2010, 02:39 PM
By the way, whatever happened to The Playcaller? I haven't seen him around in a long time. I loved his articles and he really helped debunk a lot of misunderstandings about the referees.

MChambers
12-02-2010, 02:53 PM
I think that Miles gets called for more fouls than one would expect because of certain difficulties that I have mentioned previously as restricting his effectiveness as an inside-the-defense and back to the basket scorer.

This is what I just think I see, I think he can improve dramatically, but not through high-end physical or skill training. Let's see if I can put words to it.

In the simplest form, Miles, in many contexts, sees as his only option collecting for a power explosion off the floor that overpowers, gets higher than, an opponent. It is predictable and slow to develop, and often is less powerful than he expects, and is outmatched by quickness and strategic diversity by opponents.

The reason it is less powerful is how Miles organizes for that type action, which I think throws him off balance for the task at hand. It has to do, in my mind, with an upper body bend, the how of it. I think that that contributes, by the way, to a diminished suppleness and diversity in the use of his arms and hands.

I think that Miles originates action from only one initiation point, or a more limited range than his talent would imply. What do I mean? If I ask you to look over your left shoulder, you could originate from the vertebrae nearest your head, from lower in your neck, from somewhere in your upper back, from your pelvis, from your feet, and places in between. The different movements and feels produced by different choices vary dramatically. Such choices are the stuff that nuance is made of. In the world in which the dramatic seems so dominant, it is nuance that often distinguishes effective play from less effective play.

I think also that Miles is limited in his perceptions in certain contexts which might explain some of what I have described above. What one perceives, senses, takes in and trusts defines his reality and the universe of logical responses. When Miles catches inside to the left of the basket with his back to it, I suspect that he sees the only option for getting off a shot that will not require the bend-collection option described above, an option that he must rue, is a jump hook off a slight turn that leaves him with an awful release point and an extremely low percentage shot. I think his perception is that it is his responsibility to attempt to score the ball from such a position, that he must do so quickly before outside help arrives, and takes the one course he knows he can get the ball off in unimpeded fashion.

I think that he simply cannot envision how a single bounce and accompanying slide step to the middle would open up several much, much more potent scoring options, even while it would allow time for help to possibly arrive. But, the arrival of help can be seen as an opportunity, as it is my many inside scorers, not as an impediment--for example, you use the ball as a lure to draw a predicted swipe which you elude through moving the ball away on an unreachable path, and you have a moment of confusion among the defenders that can be exploited. Why a gifted athlete like Miles does not see such options? Who knows. There are many possibilities, and understanding why is not really important. I think improvment must begin with Miles's becoming aware of how he performs that bending movement that is so habitual, and begins to develop options that currently are inaccessible.

Or, it could be the refs, which probably is much more likely the case. :o

Do you recommend a Feldenkrais practitioner, or soccer practice over Christmas? Or both?;)

Seriouly, nice to see your unconventional analysis.

oldnavy
12-02-2010, 04:36 PM
We had among the most highly qualified refs last night: Karl Hess, John Cahill, and Ed Corbett. All three have worked late in the NCAAs - Cahill called the Duke/Butler game. Hess called UNC's final four semi. Corbett called the '08 championship.

Much as I despise Hess, these guys are at the top of their game.

(Data cribbed from Statsheet (http://statsheet.com/mcb/referees). Take a look - it's fun!)

-jk

I didn't really have a problem with the overall game and the way it was called. Their was one foul on Miles and one on Ryan where I think the refs anticipated a foul and jumped the call too soon, but I am sure there were others that went our way that I didn't notice.

The non-call on the travel still baffles me. I understand the dude didn't have control when he was falling, but he did gain control while he was on the ground and when he pivoted/rolled/spun (whatever you want to call it) on his butt he had both feet up in the air so he was moving his position without having a pivot foot (or any type of foot for that matter) established. How can this not be traveling?? Maybe I just don't understand the rule... This would be the first time I have been wrong all year!! :rolleyes:

-jk
12-02-2010, 05:58 PM
I didn't really have a problem with the overall game and the way it was called. Their was one foul on Miles and one on Ryan where I think the refs anticipated a foul and jumped the call too soon, but I am sure there were others that went our way that I didn't notice.

The non-call on the travel still baffles me. I understand the dude didn't have control when he was falling, but he did gain control while he was on the ground and when he pivoted/rolled/spun (whatever you want to call it) on his butt he had both feet up in the air so he was moving his position without having a pivot foot (or any type of foot for that matter) established. How can this not be traveling?? Maybe I just don't understand the rule... This would be the first time I have been wrong all year!! :rolleyes:

It's fairly simple in concept: there is no traveling without control.

A player who grabs the ball on the floor can slide with his momentum with the ball until he stops. If he's on his back, he can sit up. Otherwise, he can spin around on the floor but can't get up, can't actively slide or scoot, and can't roll over.

Someone who drops the ball while falling down can grab it back when down and it's not traveling even if his momentum carries him across the floor.

Someone on the floor with the ball can start dribbling and stand up and go, so long as he continues to dribble.

A player can fall down and get back up while maintaining a dribble.

-jk

oldnavy
12-03-2010, 07:01 AM
It's fairly simple in concept: there is no traveling without control.

A player who grabs the ball on the floor can slide with his momentum with the ball until he stops. If he's on his back, he can sit up. Otherwise, he can spin around on the floor but can't get up, can't actively slide or scoot, and can't roll over.

Someone who drops the ball while falling down can grab it back when down and it's not traveling even if his momentum carries him across the floor.

Someone on the floor with the ball can start dribbling and stand up and go, so long as he continues to dribble.

A player can fall down and get back up while maintaining a dribble.

-jk

I probably should go back and look at the play, but in my minds eye, I seem to remember the kid gaining control of the ball while down and moving by rolling from his side to his rear end. That is where I thought the travel occurred. What you say makes perfect sense and I may have thought I saw something that did not happen or even did happen but is not against the rule. Any way, thanks for the clarification.