Top 5 Dukies

[lotusland]

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=ycn-7201892

Hard to argue with anyone on this list but for me Battier might edge Redick. I don't know their stats by heart but hang another banner and Singler supplants them both on my list.

[dukeballboy88]

Nah I have to move JJ and Johnny D down even though I love them both there is no way Jay Williams is left off the list. And for me, I got to put WhoseyourDaddyBattier on there. If Kyle can pull of the double, I might have to put him on the list and knock Battier off!

1 Laettne
2 Hurley
3 Hill
4 J williams
5 Battier

[Bob Green]

I find the list to be too modern as none of my favorite childhood Blue Devils are listed. O course all four NCAA Championships have been during the Coach K era so I'm sure that fact has a significant impact. Moreover, today's players have four years of eligibility compared to three years. Still, Bob Verga and Mike Lewis are names that stir vivid memories from my youth in the 60s.

[davekay1971]

Always hard to limit this kind of thing to 5.

Given that he limited himself to 5, the author certainly hit a good 5, but Shane Battier, Art Heyman, Jason Williams, Danny Ferry, Dick Groat just called and challenged Christian, Bobby, Grant, JJ, and JD to a game of 5 on 5. Jon Scheyer, Kyle Singler, Nolan Smith, Shelden Williams, and Elton Brand got winner. Gene Banks and Jim Spanarkel, and Mike Gminski say hello.

[The Gordog]

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=ycn-7201892

Hard to argue with anyone on this list but for me Battier might edge Redick. I don't know their stats by heart but hang another banner and Singler supplants them both on my list.

Laettner - no explanation needed.
Ferry - led under-manned team to FF in 1988.
G. Hill - led under-manned team to FF in 1994.
JJ - greatest scorer in the modern era.
Hurley - NCAA all time assists leader. Faster than you think. Way faster.

I wonder what K would say, but I have a feeling Shane would be on his list for the Defence.

[slower]

JJ - greatest scorer in the modern era.

Do you mean the greatest DUKE scorer in the modern era?

[hq2]

Laettner, G Hill, Jason Williams, Battier, Redick

Second team

Johnny D, Ferry, Hurley, Heyman, Gminski

[Lord Ash]

If there is no Shane Battier on the list, then the list is broken. Here on DBR Shane actually WON the Favorite Dukie Ever poll, and while favorite isn't always the same thing as BEST, it is hard for me to accept that Favorite doesn't even make the Top 5 cut.

[lotusland]

I find the list to be too modern as none of my favorite childhood Blue Devils are listed. O course all four NCAA Championships have been during the Coach K era so I'm sure that fact has a significant impact. Moreover, today's players have four years of eligibility compared to three years. Still, Bob Verga and Mike Lewis are names that stir vivid memories from my youth in the 60s.

I remember Gminski, Spanarkel and Banks from my youth but anything prior was before my time. Also Robert Brickey was a pre-K favorite although not top 5. I definitely would not remove Dawkins from my top 5 list.

[ajgoodfella7]

A may get flack from some for Battier's rank, but so be it. He was one of the truly great "team" players, and one of the smartest players in history.

1. Laettner
2. Battier
3. Hurley
4. Hill
5. Redick

[phaedrus]

This has been tried before and it is nearly impossible for any two Duke fans to agree on a Top 5. There are simply too many players who have been comparably great.

However, I wonder if we can find some number of players that most will agree should be grouped together, in effect making a tier of "the very greatest players of all time" and a next tier of "the very close to greatest players of all time".

For example, most commentators agree that the greatest NBA player of all time is either MJ or Bill Russell. And most agree that very close to them is a group that includes Wilt, Magic, Larry, Kareem, and the Big O. To be sure, great players are left off both lists - Shaq, Hakeem, Jerry West. But this is a starting place of consensus.
Similarly, in hockey, almost everyone agrees on the Top 4 - Gretz, Lemieux, Orr, Howe. The order is debatable.

For Duke players, on the basis of most distinguished careers, I propose a list that most might agree with:

The Very Greatest: Laettner, Hill, Williams, Battier.

The Very Close-to Greatest: Hurley, Heyman, Gminski, Redick, Dawkins, Ferry.

Apologies if I left out your favorite. But I suppose the main proposition of this post is that most people would probably agree that the Top 4 I suggest are among our Top 5.

[Bluedog]

Hey, I took that photo! haha. I can't believe Yahoo! Sports is actually using it...I mean, I did release it to the public domain through the Creative Commons Attribution so I don't care, but it wasn't the greatest shot in the world and is a bit blurry. (Hey, I'm not a professional photographer and I wasn't that close to him.) I guess they couldn't get anything better that was completely free to use. Funny stuff.

In any event, back to the topic, I think I'd have the following:

1.) Laettner
2.) G Hill
3.) Dawkins
4.) JWill
5.) Redick

Edit: Just realized it was an article submitted by a Yahoo! Sports user a la bleacher report. I didn't think a more legit Yahoo journalist would use that photo when they probably have AP, Reuters, etc. at their disposal.

[Bob Green]

Also Robert Brickey was a pre-K favorite although not top 5.

Robert Brickey was not pre-K.

[Olympic Fan]

Going into this season, Goduke the Magazine ran a poll of sports writers/historians (Bill Brill, Al Featherston, Jim Sumner, Barry Jacobs, John Roth were all on the panel) to pick Duke's 50 greatest players. Based on their performance at Duke (and not NBA career):

I don't know if it' on-line,n but the top 10 from my copy were:

1. Christian Laettner
2. Art Heyman
3. Johnny Dawkins
4. Shane Battier
5. Grant Hill
6. Jason Williams
7. Danny Ferry
8. J.J. Redick
9. Dick Groat
10.(tie) Bobby Hurley
and Mike Gminski

[Reddevil]

If I had to put together a conventional team that would most likely beat all others it would be:

Hurley
Hill
Laettner
Brand
Dawkins

No matter how you cut it, the bench would be a dream too:

Battier
Williams
Ferry
Heyman
Gminski
Redick

[lotusland]

This has been tried before and it is nearly impossible for any two Duke fans to agree on a Top 5. There are simply too many players who have been comparably great.

However, I wonder if we can find some number of players that most will agree should be grouped together, in effect making a tier of "the very greatest players of all time" and a next tier of "the very close to greatest players of all time".

For example, most commentators agree that the greatest NBA player of all time is either MJ or Bill Russell. And most agree that very close to them is a group that includes Wilt, Magic, Larry, Kareem, and the Big O. To be sure, great players are left off both lists - Shaq, Hakeem, Jerry West. But this is a starting place of consensus.
Similarly, in hockey, almost everyone agrees on the Top 4 - Gretz, Lemieux, Orr, Howe. The order is debatable.

For Duke players, on the basis of most distinguished careers, I propose a list that most might agree with:

The Very Greatest: Laettner, Hill, Williams, Battier.

The Very Close-to Greatest: Hurley, Heyman, Gminski, Redick, Dawkins, Ferry.

Apologies if I left out your favorite. But I suppose the main proposition of this post is that most people would probably agree that the Top 4 I suggest are among our Top 5.

Laettner Hill and Hurley should be automatic in my book. Hurley is the NCAA all-time leading assist leader. Below are a few all-time lists I found online. Laettner is always in the top 25 and Hurley is always in the top 50. It is subjective obviously but I feel comfortable saying that Hurley surpasses Williams on most lists. Oddly Michael Jordan gets listed occasionally and I have seen a couple with Bill Russell at the top. I can't imagine anyone other than Lew Alcinder at the top.

http://www.americasbestonline.net/index.php/pages/top100collegebasketballplayers.html

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/415905-the-50-greatest-college-basketball-players-of-all-tim#page/1

http://www.rateitall.com/t-746-mens-college-basketball-players-all-time.aspx

[lotusland]

Robert Brickey was not pre-K.

Thanks for the correction - I could not tell you what year he played but he was a favorite of mine at the time whenever that was!

[flyingdutchdevil]

Laettner Hill and Hurley should be automatic in my book. Hurley is the NCAA all-time leading assist leader. Below are a few all-time lists I found online. Laettner is always in the top 25 and Hurley is always in the top 50. It is subjective obviously but I feel comfortable saying that Hurley surpasses Williams on most lists. Oddly Michael Jordan gets listed occasionally and I have seen a couple with Bill Russell at the top. I can't imagine anyone other than Lew Alcinder at the top.

http://www.americasbestonline.net/index.php/pages/top100collegebasketballplayers.html

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/415905-the-50-greatest-college-basketball-players-of-all-tim#page/1

http://www.rateitall.com/t-746-mens-college-basketball-players-all-time.aspx

Absolutely agree with Laettner and Hurley - they would be in the top 5 NCAA players in the last 20 years (Hurley b/c of assists, the most beautiful part of basketball and Laettner is, well, Laettner). To round out my top 5, it'd be Redick (broke the ACC scoring record), Battier (epitome of D and leadership) and Dawkins (the first Coach K superstar).

[superdave]

Redick never carried a team in the NCAAs. That is a gaping hole in his resume compared to a lot of Duke guards.

1. Laettner
2. Dawkins
3. Hill
4. Williams
5. Battier

Hurley is breathing down Jason Williams' neck though, in my estimation.

[superdave]

2. Art Heyman


Wish I knew more about Heyman. He's the one guy that the old guard consistantly puts up at the top from pre-Superdave days.

[lotusland]

If I had to put together a conventional team that would most likely beat all others it would be:

Hurley
Hill
Laettner
Brand
Dawkins

No matter how you cut it, the bench would be a dream too:

Battier
Williams
Ferry
Heyman
Gminski
Reddick

Most unbeatable is a different list altogether. In that case you need complimetary players.

1-5 I'd go with Hurley, Dawkins, Hill, Laettner, Sheldon. Sheldon being the most controversial of course but there are only so many shots to go around so Hurley and Williams provide assists, Rebounding, defense and shot blocking. I don't think we lose much by "going small" and moving Laettner to the 5 with Battier at the 4:o.

[CBDUKE]

Heyman was a 6' 5" (probably more like 6' 3") rebounding and scoring machine. He was not a great shooter, but he was a great scorer as his 25+ point a game avg. will attest. He was the guy you gave the ball to and said go win this game, and he usually did. Think of Christian's intensity and you have the same in Art (if not more). I don't know who to compare him to today to help you out, but Art and Christian are 1 and 2 in Duke history. You can pick which one is 1. My pick is Art Heyman. Go look at his stats which were accomplished in 3 years. I hope this helps a little.

[superdave]

Heyman was a 6' 5" (probably more like 6' 3") rebounding and scoring machine. He was not a great shooter, but he was a great scorer as his 25+ point a game avg. will attest. He was the guy you gave the ball to and said go win this game, and he usually did. Think of Christian's intensity and you have the same in Art (if not more). I don't know who to compare him to today to help you out, but Art and Christian are 1 and 2 in Duke history. You can pick which one is 1. My pick is Art Heyman. Go look at his stats which were accomplished in 3 years. I hope this helps a little.

I appreciate your perspective. I have always enjoyed hearing about him taking on the UNC team in that fight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0RroAH4vwU). My kind of player!

[Jarhead]

This is terrible. Here we are discussing the top five Duke players, but why limit it to five. Every one of those guys whose banners are hanging in the Cameron rafters should be in that top five. He||, we could possibly have ten or more guys tied for the number one of the top five. We can't leave out JJ or Battier, and how did we manage to leave out Dick Groat? What about Tate Armstrong, Bob Verga, Art Heyman or Gene (Tinkerbell) Banks? For starters, let's take a look at the Bleacher Report (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/388244-duke-basketball-50-greatest-players-of-all-time) list of the fifty greatest Duke players. They got it a bit wrong, too, but it shows a whole host of guys that have been left out in this thread.

If I were trying to make a list, I would start with a coach, let's say Mike Krzyzewski, or Vic Bubas and give them some credit. If Duke's first All-American, Billy Werber, were to benefit from being coached by Krzyzewski, how would he stack up? How tough would that be. Actually? It's impossible, but it's the only fair way to evaluate players from the past. I don't like limiting any ranking to just five unless it were possible to do it objectively. Come up with an objective standard, and I'm on board with that.

[phaedrus]

Laettner Hill and Hurley should be automatic in my book. Hurley is the NCAA all-time leading assist leader.

What if we go with the following:

Top 2: Grant Hill and Christian Laettner

Top 6: Shane Battier, Bobby Hurley, Johnny Dawkins, Jason Williams

Top 11: Heyman, Gminski, Groat, Redick, Ferry

Honorable Mentions: Everyone else with a retired jersey, plus Elton Brand and Jon Scheyer. Singler moves into the Top 12 if he wins NPOY.

I feel fairly confident that, at the very least, everyone agrees that my Top 2 are in the Top 5.

[4decadedukie]

1) Duke basketball did not begin with Coach K's appearance on campus (and this certainly is NOT disrespectful or unmindful of the peerless accomplishments made during his tenure); Groat, Mullins, Heyman, Gminski and others were stellar Duke student-athletes.
2) Even evaluating only the "K era," I would select Shane before JJ in the "top five" listing (due to leadership, tenacity, DEFENSE, and as a team-victory-catalyst).

[sagegrouse]

Read the following passage from the article:


"With four national championships during his tenure at Duke, Krzyzewski has had the privilege of coaching some of the greatest college basketball players in the history of the NCAA. Take a look back at the top five players in the history of Duke men's basketball."


The text cites only K but the lead sentence and last sentence refer to "the history of Duke men's basketball."

This is not by a known Yahoo correspondent (capital Y), but I wonder whether the editor even read it before publishing it. An article should be clear about the subject.

If restricted to the K era, I don't have major heartburn with the list. I suppose cases can be made for Ferry, Battier, Jason Williams, and Elton, all selected as National Player of the Year, but the article's top five list doesn't have any weak spots.

sagegrouse

[dball]

Appears the list is really about K era so that's fine but if listing the greatest Duke basketball players, you'd have to start with Dick Groat.

Groat was the first retired Duke Jersey and the only one prior to Coach K arriving. Nearly 30 years and a LOT of great Bubas teams later, G-man got the next and after that, K and Duke made a nice gesture by honoring Heyman (long overdue) and Mullins.

Groat had a Hall of Fame career and was a 2-time All American, player of the year and the alltime points leader (most points during a season) while in school. He scored 48 points against the UNCCH bunch. Believe that's still the most ever scored against the Heels.

Groat played a year in the NBA prior to his military service. When he got out, he decided to concentrate on baseball (was MVP one year). The guy was really, really good though granted before my time.

There was a reason that Bobby Knight cracked (during a recent PITT game) that the best basketball player in the building is Dick Groat.

[gw67]

Like some of the old timers on the site, I saw Heyman, Mullins, Marin and Verga as well as those who played for Coach K and in between. My top five would be

Laettner
Hill
Ferry
JWill
Dawkins

The toughest to leave off are two of my favorite Devils - Hurley and Battier.

Three players that I don't see mentioned in any of the posts are Jeff Mullins (3-time 1st team All ACC), Trajon Langdon (3-time 1st team All ACC) and Mark Alarie (two-time 1st team and one-time 2nd team All ACC). These are based on Charlie Board which I've found to be on the money. The depth of the quality players who have played at Duke is amazing. You can go five teams deep and still leave off outstanding college players.

gw67

[DukeDevilDeb]

Hey, I took that photo! haha. I can't believe Yahoo! Sports is actually using it...I mean, I did release it to the public domain through the Creative Commons Attribution so I don't care, but it wasn't the greatest shot in the world and is a bit blurry. (Hey, I'm not a professional photographer and I wasn't that close to him.) I guess they couldn't get anything better that was completely free to use. Funny stuff.

In any event, back to the topic, I think I'd have the following:

1.) Laettner
2.) G Hill
3.) Dawkins
4.) JWill
5.) Redick

Edit: Just realized it was an article submitted by a Yahoo! Sports user a la bleacher report. I didn't think a more legit Yahoo journalist would use that photo when they probably have AP, Reuters, etc. at their disposal.

How can you leave Hurley off, still as far as I know the NCAA Assists leader? I would bounce Redick off in a minute (while he may have been the greatest shooter or whatever, his play during tournaments never lived up to his publicity) to put Hurley and Battier on there.

Maybe what we really need is the top 5 players by decade. Johnny D is in a different decade... definitely should be on.

Smash the Spartans tonight!

[_TheFakeJWill_]

I think the biggest question is the Hurley/Williams debate. Anyone have stats to help us out?
1.) winner or Hurley/Williams
2.)Dawkins
3.)G Hill
4.)Battier
5.) Laettner

6th man Redick

[ajgoodfella7]

I think the biggest question is the Hurley/Williams debate. Anyone have stats to help us out?
1.) winner or Hurley/Williams
2.)Dawkins
3.)G Hill
4.)Battier
5.) Laettner

6th man Redick

Bobby Hurley's senior year at Duke he averaged:
17 ppg, 8.2 apg, 2.6 rpg, 1.5 spg.

Jason Williams junior season at Duke he averaged:
21.2 ppg, 5.3 apg, 3.5 rpg, 2.2 spg.

However they were two completely different players on two completely different teams so I'm not really sure what this will prove.

--Stats from goduke.com

[lotusland]

Bobby Hurley's senior year at Duke he averaged:
17 ppg, 8.2 apg, 2.6 rpg, 1.5 spg.

Jason Williams junior season at Duke he averaged:
21.2 ppg, 5.3 apg, 3.5 rpg, 2.2 spg.

However they were two completely different players on two completely different teams so I'm not really sure what this will prove.

--Stats from goduke.com

Turnovers per game is also very relevant. Hurley was a pure point guard who could also penetrate and score. Williams was a combo guard who didn't play point in HS. If you add up the points from assists assuming they were all 2 pointers Hurley is responsible for 33.4 PPG and Williams is responsible for 31.8. Also I put a premium on assist for a PG since distributing the ball and keeping everyone involved is job one. Maybe if Williams has played 4 years he could have achieved as much as Hurley but then you could extrapolate a POY season for Deng if you counted would'ves and could'ves. As good as he was I just don't see how Williams can make the top 5 over the all time NCAA assist leader who also scored and defended well and won two championships in 3 Final Four appearances.

Without checking I would assume Hurley’s points went up and assists went down his senior year without Laettner, Hill and Davis.

[ajgoodfella7]

Turnovers per game is also very relevant. Hurley was a pure point guard who could also penetrate and score. Williams was a combo guard who didn't play point in HS. If you add up the points from assists assuming they were all 2 pointers Hurley is responsible for 33.4 PPG and Williams is responsible for 31.8. Also I put a premium on assist for a PG since distributing the ball and keeping everyone involved is job one. Maybe if Williams has played 4 years he could have achieved as much as Hurley but then you could extrapolate a POY season for Deng if you counted would'ves and could'ves. As good as he was I just don't see how Williams can make the top 5 over the all time NCAA assist leader who also scored and defended well and won two championships in 3 Final Four appearances.

Without checking I would assume Hurley’s points went up and assists went down his senior year without Laettner, Hill and Davis.

Hey, I agree with you. Hurley is #3 on my list of all-time Dukies.

[phaedrus]

As good as he was I just don't see how Williams can make the top 5 over the all time NCAA assist leader who also scored and defended well and won two championships in 3 Final Four appearances.



Well, Williams was consensus National Player of the Year in 2002 and also won a NPOY award in 2001, while Hurley never won NPOY. Williams scored 353 more points in 3 years than Hurley did in 4. He's also 4th all-time at Duke in assists and 5th in steals (trailing only 4-year players, of course). And, obviously, he also won a national title, although unlike Hurley, he never was Final Four MOP.

So while I respect your very reasonable view that Hurley had a more distinguished career, I certainly think there is room to disagree.

[lotusland]

Appears the list is really about K era so that's fine but if listing the greatest Duke basketball players, you'd have to start with Dick Groat.

Groat was the first retired Duke Jersey and the only one prior to Coach K arriving. Nearly 30 years and a LOT of great Bubas teams later, G-man got the next and after that, K and Duke made a nice gesture by honoring Heyman (long overdue) and Mullins.

Groat had a Hall of Fame career and was a 2-time All American, player of the year and the alltime points leader (most points during a season) while in school. He scored 48 points against the UNCCH bunch. Believe that's still the most ever scored against the Heels.

Groat played a year in the NBA prior to his military service. When he got out, he decided to concentrate on baseball (was MVP one year). The guy was really, really good though granted before my time.

There was a reason that Bobby Knight cracked (during a recent PITT game) that the best basketball player in the building is Dick Groat.

Heyman and Groat played before Duke or College basketball in general were fully integrated. It's not their fault but it is a fact that they didn't play with or against the best Black players of their day. I think you have to at least take that into consideration when discussing all time greats. I think Duke's first black basketball player came in 1966, the year I was born.

[lotusland]

Well, Williams was consensus National Player of the Year in 2002 and also won a NPOY award in 2001, while Hurley never won NPOY. Williams scored 353 more points in 3 years than Hurley did in 4. He's also 4th all-time at Duke in assists and 5th in steals (trailing only 4-year players, of course). And, obviously, he also won a national title, although unlike Hurley, he never was Final Four MOP.

So while I respect your very reasonable view that Hurley had a more distinguished career, I certainly think there is room to disagree.

There is always room to disagree. For me the list starts with Laettner, Hill and Hurley and then you argue about the other two but like others have said we are fortunate to have so many all time greats to choose from.

[Rogue]

I don't think there's disagreement.. Since 1969 when they started the Naismith Award for National Player of the year,, Duke leads the nation with 7.. If you have 7 National Players of the year,, nameing a top 5 is sorta hard,, and when you consider the great talent at DUKE before 1969,, Dick Groat, Art Heyman, Jeff Mullins, Bob Verga,, we're spliting hairs as to who are the best 5.. Many of you never say the 4 listed above,, I only saw Groat play for the Pittsburg Pirate,, not at DUKE,, but I did see the other.. they were GOOD,, and no one was tougher than Art Heyman,, the man took no quarters.

One National Player of the year who isn't mentioned often , because he left early, is Elton Brand..
Thank about,, a national player of the year,, AT DUKE, and he's really not even in the conversation because his time at DUKE wasn't 4 yrs.. That speaks volumns for the talent that enters Cameron..

You can bet that the girls in baby bleu would have Jordan in their top 5 after just two yrs there,,

[_TheFakeJWill_]

After tonight's first half performance id put Kyrie over Hurley and J Will ;) :D

[lotusland]

I don't think there's disagreement.. Since 1969 when they started the Naismith Award for National Player of the year,, Duke leads the nation with 7.. If you have 7 National Players of the year,, nameing a top 5 is sorta hard,, and when you consider the great talent at DUKE before 1969,, Dick Groat, Art Heyman, Jeff Mullins, Bob Verga,, we're spliting hairs as to who are the best 5.. Many of you never say the 4 listed above,, I only saw Groat play for the Pittsburg Pirate,, not at DUKE,, but I did see the other.. they were GOOD,, and no one was tougher than Art Heyman,, the man took no quarters.

One National Player of the year who isn't mentioned often , because he left early, is Elton Brand..
Thank about,, a national player of the year,, AT DUKE, and he's really not even in the conversation because his time at DUKE wasn't 4 yrs.. That speaks volumns for the talent that enters Cameron..

You can bet that the girls in baby bleu would have Jordan in their top 5 after just two yrs there,,

Jordan played 3 years at the UNC.

[wsb3]

I find the list to be too modern as none of my favorite childhood Blue Devils are listed. O course all four NCAA Championships have been during the Coach K era so I'm sure that fact has a significant impact. Moreover, today's players have four years of eligibility compared to three years. Still, Bob Verga and Mike Lewis are names that stir vivid memories from my youth in the 60s.

I'm not saying Verga would be top 5 but I do think that he might be the most overlooked great player at Duke. I would have love to have seen him play with a 3 point line.Jeff Mullins is another great from the Bubas years. He was the first star I recall from my youth. In the K era as the years roll by I feel like Danny Ferry gets shortchanged. He was a great college player.

[The Gordog]

Redick never carried a team in the NCAAs. That is a gaping hole in his resume compared to a lot of Duke guards.

1. Laettner
2. Dawkins
3. Hill
4. Williams
5. Battier

Hurley is breathing down Jason Williams' neck though, in my estimation.

While factually correct, I would disagree with your weighting of its signifiacance. JJ's supporting cast consisted of Sheldon and no other NBA level players. J-Will OTOH had Shane, Boozer, Dunleavy, and Duhon. Every starter on that team has started in the NBA. He hardly "carried" us.

Hurley set an all-time NCAA record that still stands. How can he not be on the list?

[superdave]

While factually correct, I would disagree with your weighting of its signifiacance. JJ's supporting cast consisted of Sheldon and no other NBA level players. J-Will OTOH had Shane, Boozer, Dunleavy, and Duhon. Every starter on that team has started in the NBA. He hardly "carried" us.

Hurley set an all-time NCAA record that still stands. How can he not be on the list?

Williams scored more points in 3 years than Hurley in 4. He was more explosive and more likely to carry the team. I've actually changed my mind to Williams in recent years. I just think Williams was unguardable. But damn if Hurley's 3 vs. Vegas wasnt huuuuuuuuuuge.

As for JJ, the whole offense ran through him so he should have scored that much. Great shooter but needed lots of help to get his points.

[The Gordog]

...I would bounce Redick off in a minute (while he may have been the greatest shooter or whatever, his play during tournaments never lived up to his publicity) ...

I think never is the wrong word. Just because we failed in 2006 you are apparenly forgetting that he won ACC touney MVP, as afrosh I believe, and in 2004 it was certainly not anything he did to loose that UConn game. IIRC, it was our inability to stop Okafor without (bogus) fouls being called on our bigs.

[Cameron]

In the Coach K era, debate of the best begins and ends with one man: 1. Christian Laettner. In many instances within sport, the beauty of perfectly crafted prose is enough to call to mind and bring to life the memory of a star that has long since departed from his game’s brightest lights. Here, superlatives don’t even begin to touch the surface. They do Laettner’s legacy an injustice. It is the record of winning that most appropriately defines No. 32’s worth in the game’s annals. Most impressive of all is the four consecutive starts in the Final Four, something nobody did before Laettner and nobody will do after. The back-to-back titles aren’t bad, either. Oh, and he made perhaps the most clutch game-winner in the history of college hoops. And he did it twice.

2. Jason Williams. My goodness. The things Jason could do with the ball in his hands offensively. Outside of perhaps a handful of guys -- Bo Kimble, Chris Jackson, Allen Iverson, Randolf Childress -- I'm not sure there's been a more clever and purely dominating scoring guard in the game of college basketball than Jason Williams over the past 20 years. Not to mention, he was a two-time NCAA player of the year. No other Duke player in the K era has achieved this. Pound for pound, he was probably the most talented basketball player Duke's ever had or ever will see. Of course, I missed many decades of great Duke basketball and, after I'm gone, will miss many more.

3. Shane Battier. Leadership. Coach K called Shane the best leader he ever coached. Coming from Coach K, a man who graduated from West Point and honed his skill for coaching under the headship of Bobby Knight, that one compliment is far more impressive than anything else ever said of Shane Battier. And that's considering that Coach also labeled Shane the most complete basketball player he ever coached.

4. Johnny Dawkins. He started it all. And perhaps that's the only proper praise for this Blue Devil giant. (Also, I never saw him play:D)

5. J.J. Redick. Personal records are certainly never the only -- and often never the most appropriate -- measure of basketball brilliance in these types of rankings. But the scoring numbers and shooting performances Redick delivered during his four years in the greatest conference in college basketball history were something to behold, and performances we'll likely never see again. I remember once reading a piece on The Pistol somewhere, in a feature story within Sports Illustrated perhaps, trying to put into words Pete Maravich's grace and beauty on the basketball court. Of course, the write-up, however splendidly professed, could never do justice. Not even close. But it was the best illustration of Maravich’s game I've seen. It suggested that each time Pete Maravich put on those floppy socks and took the floor in another sold-out Southeastern Conference gym, he was playing a game of beat the clock just to keep up.

I think that perfectly explains the pressure -- no, maybe expectation is a better word -- that followed J.J. each time he walked out of the tunnel wearing D-U-K-E. People expected 35-point games every night he played in the winter of 2006. Think about that for a moment. Leaving school as the ACC all-time leading scorer is good enough to land a top five spot in my book. If it isn't, then perhaps that speaks even more to the current level of our program.

...

But then, s#!@, I forgot about Grant Hill. Damn it. Not to mention Bobby Hurley, the NCAAs all-time leader in assists. Ah Danny Ferry!, he scored 58 in a single game and was basically unstoppable.

I did this purposefully, but only to point out how truly out in front our program has been ahead of everyone else since Coach Michael Krzyzewski took over in Durham. Simply amazing.

[Cameron]

If I had to rank them, though, I still wouldn't take Redick off the list. What he did to the ACC record books is just too much to not include. No one in the conference has ever shot the way Redick did during his career, let alone that final magical senior season.

1. Christian 2. Jason 3. Shane 4. Grant 5. J.J. with Johnny Dawkins and Bobby Hurley ever so close. But I think you gotta give J.J. the edge over Johnny and Bobby, but only because there is absolutely no way the other four can be removed from the list. I might be wrong, but it's all subjective and I can't see leaving J.J. Redick off this list any way I cut it. He was too unique a player. Twenty-six points per game scorers at schools like Duke come around about as frequently as comets.

Isn't amazing, though, that players like Trajan Langdon, Elton Brand (even with just two years in Durham), Mike Dunleavy, Shelden Williams, Jon Scheyer and Kyle Singler can't even dream of making this list. And that is absolutely not a discredit to those players' games. Duke's just Duke and there have been some hellish good players to come through here.

[ricks68]

Like those few on the board familiar with Duke pre-K, I also think that Art Heyman may have been the greatest Duke player ever. But, the only other player that should certainly be included in the debate is the tall guy that made "the shot". So, we should have two guys that are #1 and #2, in either order of preference. That leaves 3 spots left. That's it. (Unless we give possible consideration for Dick Groat.)

To listen to all you uninformed young 'uns out there that think the only great players are in your generation is getting a bit disconcerting. Maybe ya'll should take a look at average points per game and whether or not the 3 point line was in effect, instead of total career points, when comparing offensive production. Also, take a look at average rebounds per game instead of total rebounds. Remember, when these guys played there were only eligible for three years and a 20 win season was remarkable. In addition, stats like assists were not even kept. So, I think you need think about if you woud rather have Heyman with the ball with a few seconds remaining for the big win or Redick, for example. If you spent a little research time on the subject, the answer would be a slam dunk.

Oh, and don't forget to include Mullins, Lewis, etc. for consideration for the last 2 or 3 spots using the same criteria.

ricks

[ricks68]

If I had to rank them, though, I still wouldn't take Redick off the list. What he did to the ACC record books is just too much to not include. No one in the conference has ever shot the way Redick did during his career, let alone that final magical senior season.

1. Christian 2. Jason 3. Shane 4. Grant 5. J.J. with Johnny Dawkins and Bobby Hurley ever so close. But I think you gotta give J.J. the edge over Johnny and Bobby, but only because there is absolutely no way the other four can be removed from the list. I might be wrong, but it's all subjective and I can't see leaving J.J. Redick off this list any way I cut it. He was too unique a player. Twenty-six points per game scorers at schools like Duke come around about as frequently as comets.

Isn't amazing, though, that players like Trajan Langdon, Elton Brand (even with just two years in Durham), Mike Dunleavy, Shelden Williams, Jon Scheyer and Kyle Singler can't even dream of making this list. And that is absolutely not a discredit to those players' games. Duke's just Duke and there have been some hellish good players to come through here.

Ever heard of Thompson or Heyman or Verga? These guys came pretty close to Redick per year without any 3 point shot. Verga's best season definitley would have outscored Redick's best season average witha 3 point shot, since that's where most of his scoring came from. (Verified by a Mike Lewis quote.) Just take a look at some old pictures of Verga and you can see where JJ got a lot of his form from. Also, there was a guy at Georgia Tech and others that might take issue with your statement, also. Now, for overall excitement from pure outside shooting, I'd take JJ. But when you talk about JJ being so unique because of his scoring average, I think fair comparisons need to be made.

ricks

[johnb]

I'll take a team of the guys who left early and who are generally snubbed in our lists (and I'll ignore pre1977 since I never saw those players and, anyway, for best players, I'd look to the modern era. not the players fault, but let's see a 6'3" forward dominate in 2010, and if you didn't allow African-American men to play, our current team would probably have 3 all Americans (wait, we already do:) ).

anyway...

brand, boozer, maggette, deng, williams in their primes would dominate hurley, jj, hill, battier, laettner. disagree? Bobby did set the assist record, but he was leading a team that included two of the best finishers in duke history, and the team was organized around him making assists for 4 years. I loved him, but jwill was a better player.

jj v maggette. there's a reason that one has fared better in the NBA. maggette would make it hard for jj to get off a shot. when confronted with really good individual defenders (as in the NBA and the NCAA tourney), jj became mortal. maggette became better.

deng v hill might be advantage grant, but not by much.

brand boozer v laettner battier. we love the latter guys and are generally silent about the former, but one group went on to play at an all star NBA level, while laettner and battier are best known for being great college players.

[Reddevil]

brand, boozer, maggette, deng, williams in their primes would dominate hurley, jj, hill, battier, laettner. disagree?

Wow, you are really stirring the pot with this post for several reasons. I'll stick to this one. Hurley, Hill, and Battier are 3 of the best defenders Duke has ever had. This is why I usually find myself on the Hurley side of the Hurley/Williams debate. Hurley played defense incredibly tight, while Williams had trouble letting other guards get by him. These debates are fun because of all the memories they provoke, but the flipside is the Duke vs Duke thing which is a little distasteful. For instance, both the 60's guys, and Gminski's crew don't get enough credit. Understandable because of age differences, let's keep eras in perspective. Hustle and courage are timeless.

[superdave]

Would it be possible to set up a poll where everyone gets 100 points to allocate any way they want, rather than vote for a top 5? Then we could rank by gross points. So if you're like me and have a hard time splitting the baby between Williams and Hurley, you can give them each a few of your 100 points.

I've never set up a DBR poll, could we do this?

[Reddevil]

Would it be possible to set up a poll where everyone gets 100 points to allocate any way they want, rather than vote for a top 5? Then we could rank by gross points. So if you're like me and have a hard time splitting the baby between Williams and Hurley, you can give them each a few of your 100 points.

I've never set up a DBR poll, could we do this?

is a good idea. First we need to define what we mean by top 5. Does it mean favorite players? Does it mean best players? Does it mean the best potential team? Something else?

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Like those few on the board familiar with Duke pre-K, I also think that Art Heyman may have been the greatest Duke player ever. But, the only other player that should certainly be included in the debate is the tall guy that made "the shot". So, we should have two guys that are #1 and #2, in either order of preference. That leaves 3 spots left. That's it. (Unless we give possible consideration for Dick Groat.)

To listen to all you uninformed young 'uns out there that think the only great players are in your generation is getting a bit disconcerting. Maybe ya'll should take a look at average points per game and whether or not the 3 point line was in effect, instead of total career points, when comparing offensive production. Also, take a look at average rebounds per game instead of total rebounds. Remember, when these guys played there were only eligible for three years and a 20 win season was remarkable. In addition, stats like assists were not even kept. So, I think you need think about if you woud rather have Heyman with the ball with a few seconds remaining for the big win or Redick, for example. If you spent a little research time on the subject, the answer would be a slam dunk.

Oh, and don't forget to include Mullins, Lewis, etc. for consideration for the last 2 or 3 spots using the same criteria.

ricks

I can't resist adding to your comments here, ricks. One can study the stats until doomsday, but not know the character and presence of a player. This undefinable aspect of each player is that special element a really outstanding player posses. It goes far beyond numbers to the ways which a player can influence and dominate others on the court.

I've seen all these guys play except for Groat. Duke has such a long, rich history in basketball that sorting out greatness is a near impossible task. Art Heyman stands atop the pile for his intensity and attitude to win over all odds. As intense as Christian could be, it's Artie who had the look, that dark look that signaled that he was about to go off and carry the game. I've watched thousands of guys play basketball over the years and none have matched that intense, dark look.

Heyman's arrival at Duke was truly the turning point for the basketball program to become a national power, just as Wallace Wade's arrival years before ushered in an era of being a national power in football. The greatness which developed quickly during the Bubas years is the basis for the expectations which fueled the search for a worthy, young coach who could guide Duke to the top of the national scene again.

[Cameron]

Now, for overall excitement from pure outside shooting, I'd take JJ. But when you talk about JJ being so unique because of his scoring average, I think fair comparisons need to be made.

The bolded part is what I was referring to when I designated Redick's senior year unique. And although we may not be talking about 26 points per night on the same level of David Thompson, Bob Verga or Art Heyman if there had been a three-point shot when they played, 26 points per night seasons in conferences such as the ACC are pretty rare, especially at the hands of a NPOTY playing alongside just one other NBA player and receiving the opponents' undivided attention each and every game. J.J. took an absolute physical and mental beating every night -- just look at the final game of his career against LSU -- and, most often, it didn't matter. He still put up 30. I'm not saying the other guys listed above didn't, but J.J. deserves, in my opinion, and earned a spot on this top five list for that alone. Outside of Christian, I'm not sure we've had a more instinctive killer at Duke. J.J. had frozen water running through his body.

And to be fair -- and clear -- on the Thompson, Verga and Heyman point, there was no three-point shot during their era and therefore no conclusive evidence as to how much the existence of the extra-point shot would have helped or improved their scoring averages. Sure, there are old videotapes exhibiting some of their exploits from deep and I'm sure many here were there as witnesses, but, had there been a three-point line in the '50s, '60s and '70s, defensive strategy would also have changed.

With a three-point shot advantage in effect, defensive strategy would most certainly have been focused more on stopping the deep ball. Just look at the focus toward perimeter pressure we've implemented at Duke for years. There hasn't been a better team in the country at defending against the three-ball than Duke over the past 15 years. Where -- and I'm guessing here since I didn't watch that era -- coaches once might have been not content but willing to give players shots from 20 to 25 feet in comparison to a shot from 15 to 18 feet that's worth the same amount of points, that all changes when an additional point becomes awarded. Much of defensive strategy has to do with risk versus reward and when plays that were once worth two now become worth three, the risk elevates considerably and your defensive focus naturally shifts, at least to some degree.

Now I'm not saying that coaches back then just said, "All right, let that Maravich kid make 12 in a row from 25 feet. It's only a two. I want our defensive effort primed in on Rich Lupcho in the paint." But I definitely think things would have been different with a three-point line -- elongated defenses, more perimeter pressure, less open looks for sharpshooters -- and that it wouldn't be as cut and dry as "Bob Verga would have scored X-amount of points with the line."

At least this is what I came up with in my head over the past 10 minutes.

[superdave]

is a good idea. First we need to define what we mean by top 5. Does it mean favorite players? Does it mean best players? Does it mean the best potential team? Something else?

Top 5 would mean the 5 greatest Duke players. You can determine great however you want. For me, greatest means best hair, which Laettner wins hands down. Ok maybe it's about the postseason, not hair.

[sagegrouse]

is a good idea. First we need to define what we mean by top 5. Does it mean favorite players? Does it mean best players? Does it mean the best potential team? Something else?

The White Queen tells Alice things that in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast." Therefore, I find it easy to come up with many ways to measure the Top 5 Dukies:

Best collegian: NPOY - consensus - 6: Heyman, Laettner, Brand, Battier, JWill, and JJ. Other winners - 3: Groat, Dawkins, Ferry. (That's nine -- it's really hard to be a Dukie and make these kind of choices.)

Best pro: NBA all-stars - 6 - Mullins, Marin, Laettner, Hill, Brand, Boozer.

Best Team, using only the above names plus retired jerseys:

C - Laettner, Gminski
PF - Ferry, Brand, Boozer, Shelden
SF - Marin, Hill, Battier
SG - Heyman, Mullins, JD, JJ
PG - Groat, Hurley, JWill

This is a Chinese menu - take one from each line and have fun.

Some license was taken here: Heyman and Mullins were forwards at Duke;Jeff was a guard in the NBA; Art (who really was 6-5) is listed as a guard-forward on the basketball reference web site. Laettner was clearly a center at Duke, although a PF in the NBA. I can't remember whether JD was a SG or a PG in the show, but he played SG after Amaker arrived at Duke. Dick Groat was a guard, period.

Apologies to the greats left off of this list: Verga, Spanarkel, Banks, Trajan, Dunleavy, Scheyer, Singler, and Smith. And a shout out to Mike Lewis and Randy Denton and Chris Duhon and the Chief.

sagegrouse
'Marin, Brand and Boozer jerseys are not retired'

[jimsumner]

While factually correct, I would disagree with your weighting of its signifiacance. JJ's supporting cast consisted of Sheldon and no other NBA level players. J-Will OTOH had Shane, Boozer, Dunleavy, and Duhon. Every starter on that team has started in the NBA. He hardly "carried" us.


Over the course of his four seasons at Duke, Redick played with seven future NBA players, Dahntay Jones, Chris Duhon, Luol Deng, Shavlik Randolph, Shelden [note the spelling] Williams, DeMarcus Nelson, and Josh McRoberts.

Note that Dahntay and Ewing also played with JWill in 2002.

Neither Nelson nor Randolph had careers of any distinction and Ewing only lasted a couple of years. But McRoberts is an NBA starter, Deng is very close to star level and Duhon and Jones have been NBA starters.

So, the difference may not be as stark as suggested.

[wva_iron_duke]

He was really good. Best bank shot from the outside I have ever seen, great rebounder, and he could really follow up his shot to get the rebound. Heyman got most of the hype but in retrospect I preferred Jeff's game. And he was natural two while Heyman was a three. Jeff Mullins was a three time NBA all star, a starter on an NBA championship team (1975) and scored over 13,000 NBA points.

[jv001]

I can't resist adding to your comments here, ricks. One can study the stats until doomsday, but not know the character and presence of a player. This undefinable aspect of each player is that special element a really outstanding player posses. It goes far beyond numbers to the ways which a player can influence and dominate others on the court.

I've seen all these guys play except for Groat. Duke has such a long, rich history in basketball that sorting out greatness is a near impossible task. Art Heyman stands atop the pile for his intensity and attitude to win over all odds. As intense as Christian could be, it's Artie who had the look, that dark look that signaled that he was about to go off and carry the game. I've watched thousands of guys play basketball over the years and none have matched that intense, dark look.

Heyman's arrival at Duke was truly the turning point for the basketball program to become a national power, just as Wallace Wade's arrival years before ushered in an era of being a national power in football. The greatness which developed quickly during the Bubas years is the basis for the expectations which fueled the search for a worthy, young coach who could guide Duke to the top of the national scene again.

Heyman picking Duke over unc, was in fact the turning point in Duke basketball. Bubas was then able to bring in more top flight players; Mullins, Verga, Marin, Vacendak, Lewis and Denton were some of those players. Then in the 70's after Vic left the Devils we fell on some hard times. But Duke regrouped somewhat under Bill Foster as he brought in Gene Banks, G-Man and Vince Taylor. One player of the 70's that is still one of my favorites is Tate Armstrong. A shooter like Verga and Redick. After the 70's came the best college basketball coach I've been fortunate to see coach. And that's Coach K. He has gotten Duke to the top and kept us there with some great players. All have been mentioned before so I will not name them. To name a list of only 5 greatest basketball players to ever play at Duke is impossible for me to do. I just enjoy each season and each player and have fond memories of each and every one of them. Go Duke!

Just to add to my post. To just see how good Duke was in the 60's under Bubas. From 1960 to 1967 Duke was almost unbeatable at home. Our record was 57 wins against 4 losses. Heyman, Mullins and Bubas got Duke off to a great start and now Coach K is having that same kind of success over a greater period of time. Go Duke!

[jimsumner]

He was really good. Best bank shot from the outside I have ever seen, great rebounder, and he could really follow up his shot to get the rebound. Heyman got most of the hype but in retrospect I preferred Jeff's game. And he was natural two while Heyman was a three. Jeff Mullins was a three time NBA all star, a starter on an NBA championship team (1975) and scored over 13,000 NBA points.

A former ACC coach once told me that Mullins worried his team more than did Heyman. The rationale was that Mullins was a bit more versatile, harder to game-plan for. Mullins certainly had a more productive pro career. Heyman had some back problems but he'd be the first to admit that his overly aggressive personality hindered his pro career.

That said, when we did our magazine poll, I voted Heyman number two with a clear conscience. He was a truly great college player, strong, skilled and with a killer instinct. The best players impose their wills on a game and Heyman imposed his will as well as anyone in Duke history, Laettner included. A force-of-nature-personality. He and Bubas figured out a way to co-exist, to their mutual benefit.

Harold Bradley recruited lots of All-ACC caliber players, guys like Joe Belmont and Ronnie Mayer and Paul Schmidt. But he never recruited a Rosenbluth, a Shavlik, an All-America type (Bradley inherited Groat, who came as much for baseball as hoops).

Heyman had committed to UNC and Frank McGuire. But Heyman's step-father and McGuire got into a violent argument over a perceived verbal slight and Heyman's step-dad insisted he reopen his recruitment.

Vic Bubas had taken over from Bradley only days before this happened. Bubas saw an opportunity and swooped in for the kill. Heyman was a great prep player and his signing with Duke not only gave Duke a great player but gave Bubas instant credibility. Guys like Mullins and Jay Buckley knew how good Heyman was and wanted to play with him.

I understand that many posters on this board don't go back as far as some of us. But make no mistake, the best of the Bubas-era players absolutely deserve consideration on any lists of great Duke players.

[NSDukeFan]

I'll take a team of the guys who left early and who are generally snubbed in our lists (and I'll ignore pre1977 since I never saw those players and, anyway, for best players, I'd look to the modern era. not the players fault, but let's see a 6'3" forward dominate in 2010, and if you didn't allow African-American men to play, our current team would probably have 3 all Americans (wait, we already do:) ).

anyway...

brand, boozer, maggette, deng, williams in their primes would dominate hurley, jj, hill, battier, laettner. disagree? Bobby did set the assist record, but he was leading a team that included two of the best finishers in duke history, and the team was organized around him making assists for 4 years. I loved him, but jwill was a better player.
You are bringing up a whole different argument if you are talking who were the best pros that Duke ever produced. It depends on the discussion. Are you talking about the best players in their primes at Duke, or the best players in their primes in the NBA? Unfortunately, some of the players on your lists have had some injury problems in the pros, but, in my mind, that in no way diminishes their greatness at Duke. If you are talking about which Duke graduates are currrently scoring the most points in the NBA, I would agree with your argument. If the argument is anything but that, I would have to disagree. The interesting thing about your argument about Bobby having two of the best finishers ever, they would still be there in this scenario.


jj v maggette. there's a reason that one has fared better in the NBA. maggette would make it hard for jj to get off a shot. when confronted with really good individual defenders (as in the NBA and the NCAA tourney), jj became mortal. maggette became better.
By fared better in the NBA, do you mean scored more on losing teams? I expect when all is said and done, JJ has a very good chance of having a better pro career than Maggette. If you are talking about Duke careers than this is not even worth discussing.


deng v hill might be advantage grant, but not by much.

No offense to you or Luol, but this is a huge advantage anyway you slice it, unless you are looking at current ppg and then it might be close. Deng in his college prime never came close to what Hill was able to do in college. Deng in the pros has never been able to do what Hill was able to do in his prime and its not even close.


brand boozer v laettner battier. we love the latter guys and are generally silent about the former, but one group went on to play at an all star NBA level, while laettner and battier are best known for being great college players.

Brand and Boozer have each been two time NBA all-stars, while Laettner made one all-star game, before injuries limited him later in his career and Battier has only made all-Defensive team and not an all-star team. The reason everyone loves the latter guys is because they are two of the best players to have ever played for Duke, whereas Brand and Boozer were great players whose careers didn't reach the level of Battier and Laettner in part because they didn't stay the four years that Christian and Shane did. Not saying they made wrong choice, but that there is no doubt that Laettner and Battier had much better careers at Duke than Brand and Boozer and at their primes in college, Laettner and Battier would dominate Brand and Boozer. As far as the pros go, you may have an argument, but keep in mind Battier's teams have always done much better with him than without him and he has been a very solid pro for 10 years now. If you go purely on scoring, Brand and Boozer have been better pros. If you go beyond that, it becomes closer.

The mostly younger Duke players you mentioned were great at Duke and have had solid pro careers and are currently scoring more than the legends team you say they would dominate. In their college or professional primes, I strongly disagree with the side you have chosen, as I feel that individual scoring is not the sole criteria for team basketball success.

[jv001]

He was really good. Best bank shot from the outside I have ever seen, great rebounder, and he could really follow up his shot to get the rebound. Heyman got most of the hype but in retrospect I preferred Jeff's game. And he was natural two while Heyman was a three. Jeff Mullins was a three time NBA all star, a starter on an NBA championship team (1975) and scored over 13,000 NBA points.

Vic stole Mullins right out from under Kentucky's nose. Jeff being from Lexington, KY. He was also one of my favorites and personally I like Mullins better than Heyman. But not by much because Vic stole him(as Jim stated) away from unc. Both have to be mentioned in the conversation of greatest Duke players. Go Duke!

[hq2]

After tonight's first half performance id put Kyrie over Hurley and J Will

A little early for that yet. J Will was hands down the best guard in Duke history; if he had stayed four, he would have put the scoring record up so high no one would have ever touched it . Right now, Kyrie looks a little better than Hurley as a freshman, as he commits less turnovers and is a better shooter. Don't forget, however, that Hurley, even as a freshman, was the best playmaker in Duke history. Kyrie still isn't quite as good in that area yet.

[Indoor66]

But I definitely think things would have been different with a three-point line -- elongated defenses, more perimeter pressure, less open looks for sharpshooters -- and that it wouldn't be as cut and dry as "Bob Verga would have scored X-amount of points with the line."

At least this is what I came up with in my head over the past 10 minutes.

I think you are wrong. I was at the games. Verga could and did hit shots regularly from 23+ feet. Defenses were geared to stop him. He could beat you alone if you did not do that. If there had been a 3 point line, Verga and also Jack Marin would have scored many more points. Jack was a master of the corner jumper.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Vic stole Mullins right out from under Kentucky's nose. Jeff being from Lexington, KY. He was also one of my favorites and personally I like Mullins better than Heyman. But not by much because Vic stole him(as Jim stated) away from unc. Both have to be mentioned in the conversation of greatest Duke players. Go Duke!
Two major recruiting steals.... Heyman deflected from Carolina and Frank McGuire, then Mullins scooped away from Kentucky and Adolph Rupp. Those were heady days when Vic Bubas signed on and went to work at Duke. Many of his innovations are still used by coaches today.

No matter how you analyze the coaches, recruiting, records and the like, Duke basketball history is full of the best. No wonder it's difficult to come up with the best five, no matter how best is defined.

[jimsumner]

Vic stole Mullins right out from under Kentucky's nose. Jeff being from Lexington, KY. He was also one of my favorites and personally I like Mullins better than Heyman. But not by much because Vic stole him(as Jim stated) away from unc. Both have to be mentioned in the conversation of greatest Duke players. Go Duke!


RE: Mullins. Sort of. Jeff actually grew up in Astoria, New York. His father worked for IBM and was transferred to Lexington when Jeff was in high school. The point being, Mullins didn't grow up a UK fan.

Rupp did very much want him and even called on the governor to help in his recruitment. But Mullins' was turned off by Rupp's heavy-handed recruitment of Jon Speaks, a high school teammate a year ahead of Mullins. Rupp offered Speaks a scholarship. When Speaks asked for a day or two to think about it, Rupp went off on him, telling him that no one turned down an offer to play for Adolph Rupp. The offer was withdrawn.

Speaks ended up at NC State. During that recruitment, Mullins got to know a young NCSU assistant. Guy by the name of Bubas.

We know how that turned out.

[jv001]

RE: Mullins. Sort of. Jeff actually grew up in Astoria, New York. His father worked for IBM and was transferred to Lexington when Jeff was in high school. The point being, Mullins didn't grow up a UK fan.

Rupp did very much want him and even called on the governor to help in his recruitment. But Mullins' was turned off by Rupp's heavy-handed recruitment of Jon Speaks, a high school teammate a year ahead of Mullins. Rupp offered Speaks a scholarship. When Speaks asked for a day or two to think about it, Rupp went off on him, telling him that no one turned down an offer to play for Adolph Rupp. The offer was withdrawn.

Speaks ended up at NC State. During that recruitment, Mullins got to know a young NCSU assistant. Guy by the name of Bubas.

We know how that turned out.

Thanks Jim. I'd not heard the story about Mullin's recruitment. Guess Rupp had a high view of himself. Sure glad it turned out that way and Mullins got to know Vic Bubas. Go Duke!

[The Gordog]

Williams scored more points in 3 years than Hurley in 4.
I guess we are using different criteria. To me the best means best player at the peak moment of their college career.


He was more explosive and more likely to carry the team.

I've actually changed my mind to Williams in recent years. I just think Williams was unguardable. But damn if Hurley's 3 vs. Vegas wasnt huuuuuuuuuuge.
Perhaps, but one guy can be stopped by a great defender. When your PG can set up anyone so perfectly and can hit the open jumper if you let him, the whole team becomes unguardable.



As for JJ, the whole offense ran through him so he should have scored that much. Great shooter but needed lots of help to get his points. I'll address that in a minute.

[johnb]

Are you talking about the best players in their primes at Duke, or the best players in their primes in the NBA?

I was not talking about what they did in college but who--in their primes--were the best players. That could be college or pro, but I'd guess it would generally be when they were around 27.

I rarely watch pro games and much prefer college/Duke games, but there is no doubt that it's harder (and a somewhat different skillset) to excel in the pros. If you were an NBA GM and somehow could magically pick Duke players who were all graduating at the same time with the understanding that you'd have them under contract for 5 solid years and with the knowledge of how they would turn out and with the knowledge that none would get seriously injured, I think they would steer clear of the cluster of pre-1975 guys who competed only against white players (though I'm including Mullins because he might be an exeption) and have a top 6 that would look something like

Hill
Brand
JWill
Boozer
Mullins
Laettner

Obviously, this can be debated, but do you really think, for example, that NBA teams would pay more in the current free agent market for Battier than Brand or Boozer? Battier did more for Duke, and he certainly deserves all the praise that he gets, and defense tends to get underrated, but I'd still say that Brand and Boozer are seen as better pros.

If you'd want the list of the 5 or 6 players that I'd like on my team so that I could hang out with them and perhaps recreate a little Duke magic, that might be a fairly different set of players, but the first set (Hill, Brand, etc) has to play against the Lakers and the Celtics, while our stars put up most of their numbers against teams composed of players who simply weren't as good as the guys on our teams.

[The Gordog]

While factually correct, I would disagree with your weighting of its signifiacance. JJ's supporting cast consisted of Sheldon and no other NBA level players. J-Will OTOH had Shane, Boozer, Dunleavy, and Duhon. Every starter on that team has started in the NBA. He hardly "carried" us.



Over the course of his four seasons at Duke, Redick played with seven future NBA players, Dahntay Jones, Chris Duhon, Luol Deng, Shavlik Randolph, Shelden [note the spelling] Williams, DeMarcus Nelson, and Josh McRoberts.

Note that Dahntay and Ewing also played with JWill in 2002.

Neither Nelson nor Randolph had careers of any distinction and Ewing only lasted a couple of years. But McRoberts is an NBA starter, Deng is very close to star level and Duhon and Jones have been NBA starters.

So, the difference may not be as stark as suggested.

Good points, however, I responding to the idea that JJ's post season performance is so lacking that it DQs him from consideration. Let's face it, when people say that they are talking about 2006. ANd we are considering how good they were at the peak of their powers at Duke, so that means 2006. All of the palyers you mentioned except Shelden [sorry about the blunder last time, Shel] and Josh were gone by then. It has taken Josh 4.5 years since then to become a legit (not just kept around based on potential) NBA player so I do apologize for forgetting him.

JJ got better every year in spite of the erosion of talent around him leading to constant double and later triple-teaming. LSU's success at hacking him to the ground nearly every play should not, IMHO, detract from his legacy. That's all I'm saying.

[jv001]

I was not talking about what they did in college but who--in their primes--were the best players. That could be college or pro, but I'd guess it would generally be when they were around 27.

I rarely watch pro games and much prefer college/Duke games, but there is no doubt that it's harder (and a somewhat different skillset) to excel in the pros. If you were an NBA GM and somehow could magically pick Duke players who were all graduating at the same time with the understanding that you'd have them under contract for 5 solid years and with the knowledge of how they would turn out and with the knowledge that none would get seriously injured, I think they would steer clear of the cluster of pre-1975 guys who competed only against white players (though I'm including Mullins because he might be an exeption) and have a top 6 that would look something like

Hill
Brand
JWill
Boozer
Mullins
Laettner

Obviously, this can be debated, but do you really think, for example, that NBA teams would pay more in the current free agent market for Battier than Brand or Boozer? Battier did more for Duke, and he certainly deserves all the praise that he gets, and defense tends to get underrated, but I'd still say that Brand and Boozer are seen as better pros.

Well I thought we were discussing college careers and not nba careers. In that case, Johnny Dawkins should be one of the best. JD had a good pro-career. The G-Man had a good pro career, Mullins had a good pro career. Marin had a good pro-career. Still no way to name the 5 best. Go Duke!

[Indoor66]

Well I thought we were discussing college careers and not nba careers. In that case, Johnny Dawkins should be one of the best. JD had a good pro-career. The G-Man had a good pro career, Mullins had a good pro career. Marin had a good pro-career. Still no way to name the 5 best. Go Duke!

Heck, at one point in his career, Jack Marin was a one-for-one trade for Elvin Hayes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Marin)!

[superdave]

Good points, however, I responding to the idea that JJ's post season performance is so lacking that it DQs him from consideration. Let's face it, when people say that they are talking about 2006. ANd we are considering how good they were at the peak of their powers at Duke, so that means 2006. All of the palyers you mentioned except Shelden [sorry about the blunder last time, Shel] and Josh were gone by then. It has taken Josh 4.5 years since then to become a legit (not just kept around based on potential) NBA player so I do apologize for forgetting him.

JJ got better every year in spite of the erosion of talent around him leading to constant double and later triple-teaming. LSU's success at hacking him to the ground nearly every play should not, IMHO, detract from his legacy. That's all I'm saying.

JJ also fell to Michigan State in 2005 as the best player on Duke his junior year. Two years leading the team, two Sweet 16 exits. That means something big to me when thinking about the pecking order.

[Indoor66]

JJ also fell to Michigan State in 2005 as the best player on Duke his junior year. Two years leading the team, two Sweet 16 exits. That means something big to me when thinking about the pecking order.

It's a five man game. You have to look at who was around him. No one can do it alone - check out Pete Maravich's career.

[superdave]

It's a five man game. You have to look at who was around him. No one can do it alone - check out Pete Maravich's career.

I certainly get that, but think about Laettner, Hill or Dawkins on 2006 Duke. Different outcome? A Final Four? I do recall arguing heading into the 2006 post-season that Duke should run the offense more through Shelden because college opponents were less likely to stop him in the post than Redick in the backcourt. We were not a great team that year in spite of the gaudy record. Thin bench, young rotation otuside JJ/Shel/Dock , etc.

[Mal]

It's a five man game. You have to look at who was around him. No one can do it alone - check out Pete Maravich's career.

Fair enough, but then again, Grant in 1994. I know it's easier to game plan for stopping a sharpshooter who's the 1 and 1A offensive options on his team than it is a swingman or a point guard, and I vividly recall screaming at the TV about all the jersey grabbing and hip-checking on the baseline that JJ had to endure without getting a whistle in a few NCAA games. But the unfortunate fact remains that during his four years, we beat one team with better than a 7 seed in the NCAA's, and failed to make it past the Sweet 16 three times. The trip to the Final Four in '04 was, at least in my memory, a lot more about Luol and Duhon than it was the sophomore Redick. And, if memory serves, he had awful shooting performances in at least two of those four tournament losses (one was as a freshman, but still, think of Capel or Hurley or many others and their freshman tourney performances). You can't lay that all on him, and when the guy was on he was, I would submit, more "fun to watch" than any other player in Duke history. But facts is facts, and that lack of ever putting the team on his back in the postseason is enough for me to leave him off any "all-time" list limited to 5 names.

Battier, Williams, Hill, Laettner, Dawkins for me. In no particular order other than Laettner at the top.

[Indoor66]

I certainly get that, but think about Laettner, Hill or Dawkins on 2006 Duke. Different outcome? A Final Four? I do recall arguing heading into the 2006 post-season that Duke should run the offense more through Shelden because college opponents were less likely to stop him in the post than Redick in the backcourt. We were not a great team that year in spite of the gaudy record. Thin bench, young rotation otuside JJ/Shel/Dock , etc.

Except that Shelden would be collapsed upon and have to look to pass out and if JJ was covered, then what? Of course, add Laetner or Hill to the mix and it is a different outcome.

If a hop toad had longer legs, it wouldn't bump its butt.

[Cameron]

I think you are wrong. I was at the games. Verga could and did hit shots regularly from 23+ feet. Defenses were geared to stop him. He could beat you alone if you did not do that. If there had been a 3 point line, Verga and also Jack Marin would have scored many more points. Jack was a master of the corner jumper.

Which is precisely the reason for introducing my last post with the caveat that I was not a witness to that era. Your first-hand accounts are obviously of much more value to this particular discussion, so thanks for sharing.

However, I would still contend that the advent of the three-point line did, in fact, change the way coaches approached the defensive side of the game and that, with the extra point being awarded for the deeper shots, a more concerted effort was placed on stopping it. Again, Duke has for years placed the utmost importance on defending the three. We're the best in the business. But, as I said, I didn't see Bob Verga, or Jeff Mullins, or even Johnny Dawkins play one single minute of live basketball. So, from my end, I guess it's purely conjecture and I'll take your word for it.

I know Redick wasn't your battle, Indoor, but in terms of J.J., no matter what, he stays on my list.

[Scoring Point]

Which is precisely the reason for introducing my last post with the caveat that I was not a witness to that era. Your first-hand accounts are obviously of much more value to this particular discussion, so thanks for sharing.

However, I would still contend that the advent of the three-point line did, in fact, change the way coaches approached the defensive side of the game and that, with the extra point being awarded for the deeper shots, a more concerted effort was placed on stopping it. Again, Duke has for years placed the utmost importance on defending the three. We're the best in the business. But, as I said, I didn't see Bob Verga, or Jeff Mullins, or even Johnny Dawkins play one single minute of live basketball. So, from my end, I guess it's purely conjecture and I'll take your word for it.

I know Redick wasn't your battle, Indoor, but in terms of J.J., no matter what, he stays on my list.

I doubt anyone who saw both Johnny Dawkins and JJ play a lot would pick JJ over Johnny. Johnny was an exceptional all around player - outstanding defender and penetrator, above average passer, finisher and rebounder (for his size), as well as an underrated jumpshooter.

Johnny averaged 4.0 rpg, 4.2 apg and 1.3 spg for his career, with a 1.34 assist/TO ratio. Comparable figures for JJ were 2.7 rpg, 2.2 apg and 1.1 spg, with a 1.04 A/TO ratio. Dawkins' numbers were also compiled at a time when the overall talent level in the ACC (and college basketball generally) was much higher, when K was still developing his coaching chops and the program itself was still on the rise.

[Mcluhan]

Johnny averaged 4.0 rpg, 4.2 apg and 1.3 spg for his career, with a 1.34 assist/TO ratio. Comparable figures for JJ were 2.7 rpg, 2.2 apg and 1.1 spg, with a 1.04 A/TO ratio. Dawkins' numbers were also compiled at a time when the overall talent level in the ACC (and college basketball generally) was much higher, when K was still developing his coaching chops and the program itself was still on the rise.

Glad to see somebody repping Johnny D here! Sheesh.

1. Coach K's most important recruit.
2. Set a Duke career scoring record which stood for 20 years without use of the three point line .
3. A much more consistent player than J-Will who, for all his brilliance, rarely put together two good halves.
4. Much better leader than J-Will. The undisputed leader of a 37-3 team.
5. Averaged 14ppg as a starter on a 53 win NBA team.

[jimsumner]

Glad to see somebody repping Johnny D here! Sheesh.

1. Coach K's most important recruit.
2. Set a Duke career scoring record which stood for 20 years without use of the three point line .
3. A much more consistent player than J-Will who, for all his brilliance, rarely put together two good halves.
4. Much better leader than J-Will. The undisputed leader of a 37-3 team.
5. Averaged 14ppg as a starter on a 53 win NBA team.

Very much agree with the praise for JD.

But not the implicit diss of Jason Williams. I sure have different memories about his consistency and leadership.

For the record, Dawkins did make 19 threes in 1983, when the ACC experimented with a 17-9 three-point shot. Would have made a lot more had he the opportunity in 1984, '85 and '86.

It seems that discussions of this sort can easily lead to a trap, specifically, the best way to promote the-guy-that-I-like is to minimize the-guy-that-someone-else-likes.

Remember the immortal words of Barney Fife. Nip it in the bud.

[Mcluhan]

Very much agree with the praise for JD.

But not the implicit diss of Jason Williams. I sure have different memories about his consistency and leadership.

For the record, Dawkins did make 19 threes in 1983, when the ACC experimented with a 17-9 three-point shot. Would have made a lot more had he the opportunity in 1984, '85 and '86.

It seems that discussions of this sort can easily lead to a trap, specifically, the best way to promote the-guy-that-I-like is to minimize the-guy-that-someone-else-likes.

Remember the immortal words of Barney Fife. Nip it in the bud.

Part of what was so magical about J-Will is that he was king of the "23 point-- with 21 in the second half!!!" games.

And it's notable that Johnny was the leader of his best team, whereas J-Will was not. I'm not trying to diss J-Will unnecessarily, just provide an enlightening comparison.

And to be sure, on the point about Johnny being a better NBA player than people remember, J-Will may well have played a bigger role on a successful NBA team, had he had the chance. Hurley too. :(

[ricks68]

Just got my 2011 Duke Basketball Yearbook December copy of GoDuke the Magazine today. (Boy, that's a mouthful.)

In it, there is an article by Al Featherston on the top 50 players in Duke history. Along with Mr. Featherston, Bill Brill, Jim Sumner, Barry Jacobs and John Roth did the evaluations and voting to come up with the top 50. Top 2 without a doubt were Laettner and Heyman, with Johnny D next. The rest can be seen by reading the mag. In addition, there is another great article by Bob Harris, where he has an extensive interview with Mike Lewis covering his career from high school until the present day. There are some interesting stories in there about Coach Bubas and others, also.

I wish that all of you out there that missed seeing the play during the Vic Bubas era could have experienced what Indoor, Devil in the Blue Dress, myself, and others experienced. I know, myself, that the experience has helped me to be able to better evaluate our present and past players under Coach K. I think a quote by Mike Lewis during the Bob Harris interview may help some to understand more what we are talking about: "And Verga could shoot the lights out and could go for 40 on any night. People don't realize it, but he averaged 26 a game, and we didn't have the three-point shot. There's no telling how many he would have averaged with that. We set plays for him beyond today's three-point line for him to get a jump shot. That's how deadly he was."

If anyone thinks that other teams didn't scout like they did today, and didn't set up defenses to stop Verga, Heyman, Mullins, etc., then maybe we should just not have these kind of discussions. After watching a Duke team averaging over 90 points a game (without the benefit of a 3-point shot) throughout the season get hit with defenses that came up with final scores like 21-20 and 10-12, there is no doubt in my mind that the players of yesterday had to prove themselves in the same way as the players of today.

In closing, I would like to add that DintheBD took the words right out of my mouth when she talked about "The Look" that would come over Art Heyman when it was time to put up or shut up. For the Coach K era viewers, you may have seen a slightly lesser version of it when Jason Williams led the 10 point comeback in 54 (or 56?) seconds at Maryland.

Many of the Bubas era players were absolutely fantastic, and need to be considered in the proper context in all discussions regarding Duke Bball greats. When they are not included, I believe that the slight shows a lack of true understanding of the Duke Bball phenomena. While we may differ in our opinions regarding specific players, it really would help the discussions and our understanding (myself included) if we could all strive to be more objective in our reasoning. The more we carefully listen to the "elders" here, like Jim, Bill, Al, etc., the more we are exposed to what will, I believe, enhance both our understanding and enjoyment of what truly is Duke Basketball. At the end of one of the ESPN Duke specials that was on a few weeks ago, Kyle made a very profound statement when he closed the program with his reason for wanting to be a part of Duke Basketball. (I think that was the question) His answer was: "Because it is Duke Basketball.) 'nuff said.:D

ricks

[mapei]

One of the fun things about these lists is that ultimately they are subjective, each of us picking our favorites. Nothing wrong with that - it's what makes sports banter fun.

Christian Laettner is the best college player I have ever seen. Amazingly clutch. For my money Shane Battier is almost as good - the smartest guy on the court in any game he ever played, with incredible defensive instincts, leadership abilities, and the knack for doing exactly what his team needed at the most important times. There was a play under the basket in the NCAA title game that was the most amazing sequence of quick, instinctive moves I can remember, and they may well have saved that game.

After that it gets a lot harder for me, because there are six or seven players who in my mind rank more or less equally. I think I'm putting JJ Redick on my list, because he was so electrifying and so consistent. Yeah, he had a bad game in the NCAAs at a very inopportune time. But IIRC Jason Kidd ate Hurley's lunch in the round of 16, too. If JJ had had Laettner and Hill as teammates, he would have that championship.

Not that I'm leaving Bobby Hurley off the list. Best pure NCAA point guard I've seen, ever.

So that makes me have to pick a fifth among Grant, Dawkins, Ferry, JWill, and the old-timers. Jeez. Honestly, each has his case to be made, and none is really better all-round than the others. With a serious apology to Grant, I'm going to go with Jason Williams, for all the reasons that others have put forward. But, honestly, I'm not going to argue much if you prefer Grant or Dawkins or Heyman or G-Man. It says so much about this program that the choices are so . . . arbitrary, ultimately.

[lotusland]

is a good idea. First we need to define what we mean by top 5. Does it mean favorite players? Does it mean best players? Does it mean the best potential team? Something else?

I vote for best carreer at Duke

[lotusland]

I'll take a team of the guys who left early and who are generally snubbed in our lists (and I'll ignore pre1977 since I never saw those players and, anyway, for best players, I'd look to the modern era. not the players fault, but let's see a 6'3" forward dominate in 2010, and if you didn't allow African-American men to play, our current team would probably have 3 all Americans (wait, we already do:) ).

anyway...

brand, boozer, maggette, deng, williams in their primes would dominate hurley, jj, hill, battier, laettner. disagree? Bobby did set the assist record, but he was leading a team that included two of the best finishers in duke history, and the team was organized around him making assists for 4 years. I loved him, but jwill was a better player.

jj v maggette. there's a reason that one has fared better in the NBA. maggette would make it hard for jj to get off a shot. when confronted with really good individual defenders (as in the NBA and the NCAA tourney), jj became mortal. maggette became better.

deng v hill might be advantage grant, but not by much.

brand boozer v laettner battier. we love the latter guys and are generally silent about the former, but one group went on to play at an all star NBA level, while laettner and battier are best known for being great college players.

If by "in their primes" you mean that each person on your team is playing at his highest level played AT DUKE then your team is going to get whipped. Nobody dominated Laettner in college. Ask Shaq and Alonzo Mourning (2 guys who had far better NBA carreers than anyone on your team.

[dball]

But IIRC Jason Kidd ate Hurley's lunch in the round of 16, too. If JJ had had Laettner and Hill as teammates, he would have that championship.

Not that I'm leaving Bobby Hurley off the list. Best pure NCAA point guard I've seen, ever.


Don't remember it that way at all. Hurley scored 32 in a 82-77 loss. Also had 9 assists, so in effect accounted for 2/3 of all Duke scoring while playing the entire game. Kidd had 11 pts and 14 assists so he also had a great game.

But, must have been a light lunch. :) Anyway Duke was a 3 seed, CA a 6. Was a very big story since Duke had won two years in a row, and it was round of 32. Duke would have likely fallen to Kansas (as Cal did) next.

[jimsumner]

Don't remember it that way at all. Hurley scored 32 in a 82-77 loss. Also had 9 assists, so in effect accounted for 2/3 of all Duke scoring while playing the entire game. Kidd had 11 pts and 14 assists so he also had a great game.

But, must have been a light lunch. :) Anyway Duke was a 3 seed, CA a 6. Was a very big story since Duke had won two years in a row, and it was round of 32. Duke would have likely fallen to Kansas (as Cal did) next.

Not only did Hurley have one of the best games of his career against Cal, he did so with Grant will below par because of a lingering toe problem and Parks sitting out the second half with a sprained ankle. Duke trailed early in the second half by something in the 17-18 point range and Hurley willed Duke back into that game.

The loss to Cal ended Duke's streak of five consecutive Final Fours and seriously undermined sales of T-shirts proclaiming the Final Four to be the "Duke Invitational."

[Cameron]

First off, this discussion is subjective and a subjective poll is based on personal opinions, experiences and, in many cases, emotional attachment to whatever idea is being debated. I like to consider myself an educated historian of sorts of our basketball program. I live and breathe Duke. Are there many posters on this board that would completely dominate me in a battle of wits with regard to Duke history? Certainly there are. However, that doesn't mean us "young 'uns" who have maybe not been through as many decades of Blue Devil hoops, or frequented as many live games or seen every player ever are any less capable of adding to this conversation.

Active dialogue absolutely is essential to this type of chat board discussion; however, the "I was there, son" mentality isn't useful in association with a subjective discourse. This is a fun-poll ranking ball players, not the Book of Life. If Redick, for example, is included over Dawkins, Dawkins won't be tossed into a pond of fire. He will still be a fabulous basketball player from Duke history who accomplished many great things.

J.J. Redick is on the list over Johnny Dawkins for me; however, only because there is not enough room and I can only choose five players. I won't lose any sleep for making this decision, either, like it appears some will.

[BobbyFan]

With the caveat that I'm only including post 1990 because I had just started seriously watching around then, selecting my 5 was easy. I'd rank them as follows

1. Hill
2. Laettner

3. Battier
4. Hurley
5. Williams

Hill is the best Blue Devil I have seen. A spectacular player who did everything - no matter whether on offense or defense, the ball in his hands or not, he was always helping us win - and this allowed him to star in whatever role K put him in. That said, I can certainly understand an argument for Laettner over him.

A few points about some interesting discussion in this thread:

Williams vs. Hurley
It's very close and it largely depends on the situation. With the supporting cast of the 1993 team, I would prefer Williams. With that of the 2001 team, I would take Hurley, even given that they won the title anyway. The reason I gave Hurley the slight overall edge is that I'd rather my premier ball-handler be a top passer than a top scorer, because the former is tougher to gameplan and defend.


Redick
I just couldn't give him serious consideration over anyone in my top 5. And it's not so much related to his March performances; rather it's just that he wasn't as good as the others. He was a terrific scorer, but he was still one-dimensional, and as someone pointed out in this thread, that dimension required significant work on the part of his teammates in order to help create his opportunities. While the quality of his supporting cast (besides Shelden) was relatively weak, his offensive game didn't make his teammates better.

If JJ had the opportunity to play with players like Laettner, Brand, etc., he would have been more likely to win a title. But there would also be no need for K to center the offense around creating good looks for JJ, and his numbers would take a serious dip from what they otherwise were. And his name wouldn't be coming up nearly as often in a discussion like this one.

[davekay1971]

Not much else to say than that. It was a social hello through one of my practice partners, but it absolutely highlighted my day to be able to shake the hand of one of the holy trinity of the Vic Bubas era of Duke Basketball. He was a nice guy, of course, but about all I could do was shake his hand, and tell him it was an honor to meet a guy who helped to make Duke basketball relevant on the national landscape, and who's jersey is hanging in Cameron Indoor Stadium.

To be clear: I didn't put this post in this thread to make any argument about whether or not Mr. Mullins is one of the top 5 all-time Dukies. But he's clearly one of the greats, and I didn't think a post just to exult over meeting the man didn't deserve it's own thread.