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Bluedevil114
11-30-2010, 09:52 PM
The UNC/ILL game is absolute torchure to watch. Turnovers and terrible shooting makes my eyes very sleepy. ILL has no inside game and they are rated 21st in the country. WOW!!

jipops
11-30-2010, 09:54 PM
I must say, UNC's defense looks very good so far in the Illinois game. The kids in orange aren't getting any good shots and they are all contested jumpers. If the heels knew to how value the ball the margin would be pretty big already.

This actually my first time seeing UNC. There is some impressive physical talent out there.

stillcrazie
11-30-2010, 09:57 PM
Zeller looks particularly good. Barnes, not so much.

Gthoma2a
11-30-2010, 10:02 PM
Somebody needs to tell all of these kids that if you are going to foul to try to save a basket, then make sure they don't hit the shot. That Illini guy should have made sure that if he was going to foul Barnes on that play, he took a good enough swat at his arm to make him miss!

DevilHorns
11-30-2010, 10:03 PM
I must say, UNC's defense looks very good so far in the Illinois game. The kids in orange aren't getting any good shots and they are all contested jumpers. If the heels knew to how value the ball the margin would be pretty big already.

This actually my first time seeing UNC. There is some impressive physical talent out there.

This is the third UNC game I've watched this year.... This is the best they've looked energy-wise and on the defensive front.

They're in trouble now as Zeller has just picked up his 3rd. Good move Roy keeping him in <shaking my head>. And how he does not call a time out in an away game after an 8-2 Illinois run is beyond me.

gumbomoop
11-30-2010, 10:03 PM
I assume this thread will transit from its recent focus on HB and back to UNC overall during and after tonight's game with Illinois.

So, a final [well, no, that's unlikely] thought on Barnes: reading the last couple of days debate on his talent and personality, I see that those who, however reluctantly, defend Barnes, contend that it's too early to judge his talent as overrated, and that it's unsporting to bash a teenager for a silly mistake or 2.

The counter-position, asserted with some passion especially by several posters who have to put up with a bunch of Heel supporters, is that HB has brought most of his troubles on himself, providing a possible coup de grace with the revelation re the Black Falcon.

I tend to side with the first view, certainly on the talent issue. The guy's good, very good, and will have some fine games. I also worry a bit about bashing the young man, or at least think I should worry about it. But I also worry about something else, which I hope I can describe dispassionately: it is a little troubling and even unsettling to see one that young so over-confident, so self-important. Barnes isn't quite the goofy teenager who just does dumb things. He strikes me, rather, as a young man who has drifted dangerously in the direction of playing the role of ..... himself, at 18, for heaven's sake. It's unsettling to see someone that young behave so calculatingly, and act in ways intended to have an effect. That is, his affect is intended to produce an effect. I hope he is not self-consciously playing Harrison Barnes at every waking moment, for it's not a very attractive role. It's too much.

I've no idea how I would respond to HB had he chosen Duke. I kind of imagine I'd be a little nervous about him, and would have to tiptoe around these discomfiting issues. Maybe I'd have justified his behavior as youthful exuberance; but I'd have to lie to do that, for that's not what this is. Then again, had he chosen Duke, maybe he'd be a somewhat different guy. We'll never know.

I'll end by citing what I think is the most sensible piece of advice in this thread......


.I can still choose to allow one's comeuppance to flow from one's failures rather than anointing myself the rapier-tongued castigator of youthful egoism.

..... while acknowledging forthrightly that I myself have probably failed to follow this advice. My only excuse - and that's probably what it is - is that I don't see HB's persona-thing as youthful egoism. On that graph, he's very much an outlier.

Orange&BlackSheep
11-30-2010, 10:03 PM
Which one you talking about here?
16951694

Can I give multiple pitchforks for this one, please????

Lord Ash
11-30-2010, 10:11 PM
Wait, who is this guy?

Link (http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=53824)

He has played in the game?

Duvall
11-30-2010, 10:19 PM
Wait, who is this guy?

Link (http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=53824)

He has played in the game?

That's probably just an error in ESPN's running box score - not uncommon - but that's Sylvia Hatchell's son, a former UNC JV player and current UNC walk-on.

DevilHorns
11-30-2010, 10:24 PM
Barnes has made 1 single good play this whole half. He caught the ball down-low and finished with an and-1 on a mis-match. Good play. Outside of that, he has made one wide-open 3 that he had 3 seconds to set his feet for. He has missed 3 other wide-open 3s. His energy on the boards has been decent, but nothing extraordinary.

His defense has been mediocre. I recall one fast break where he jogged back and was beaten in transition.

For the announcers to still proclaim his greatness is beyond me. I haven't seen him take command of the game in any sense (in any of the 3 games I have watched). If he has beautiful silky smooth moves he sure is good at hiding them. All I see is a jump-shooter that, to be frank, ain't no Andre Dawkins. He often jumps in the air prematurely and has to dish off an ugly pass under stress. I've seen him do this several times.

He doesn't seem to have an ability to create off the dribble from the perimeter. And that's fine. But it's bizarre that Roy's offensive scheme utilizes him on the perimeter where he has to go 1-on-1 so often. No running around screens or set plays. Incredibly bizarre.

At this point, I'm not sure how much HB's poor play is due to us overrating him or Roy under-utilizing him.

jipops
11-30-2010, 10:26 PM
Again, this is my first view of UNC in this young season, but Henson and Zeller look like terrific talents to me. No question Henson has made great strides in his game and physically he is an absolute freak with all that length. Zeller is very smooth as well and despite the foul issues (nice job there Roy on letting him get the 3rd) in this 1st half he has looked like the best player on the floor. Maybe their depth is hurting a bit up front but Knox gives them some nice production off the bench. Clearly the strength is in their front court. If they had a guard that could knock down shots they are right back in the thick of it.

DevilHorns
11-30-2010, 10:30 PM
Again, this is my first view of UNC in this young season, but Henson and Zeller look like terrific talents to me. No question Henson has made great strides in his game and physically he is an absolute freak with all that length. Zeller is very smooth as well and despite the foul issues (nice job there Roy on letting him get the 3rd) in this 1st half he has looked like the best player on the floor. Maybe their depth is hurting a bit up front but Knox gives them some nice production off the bench. Clearly the strength is in their front court. If they had a guard that could knock down shots they are right back in the thick of it.

I agree about Henson and Zeller. I think Knox has turned out to be exceptional for them. He is a solid back-up. He hits the boards hard and finishes around the rim much better than I anticipated (and perhaps most importantly carries another slate of fouls).

kong123
11-30-2010, 10:49 PM
this is heartbreaking. i cannot bear to watch it.

wilson
11-30-2010, 10:56 PM
The heels' backcourt players scored exactly zero points in the first half tonight. I hope their moms pack good lunches, because Nolan, Kyrie, and the boys are going to take them and eat them.

DevilHorns
11-30-2010, 10:56 PM
this is heartbreaking. i cannot bear to watch it.

Kong -- quick question for ya. Has Roy always been this timid about calling time-outs. I just don't get it.

kong123
11-30-2010, 11:00 PM
Kong -- quick question for ya. Has Roy always been this timid about calling time-outs. I just don't get it.

yes, he collects them and will one day hang a banner in the Smith Center to show how successful he was at not calling them.


its moving way to fast for UNC right now. a good coach would recognize this and try and slow things down a bit for them. Roy just isn't getting it and I fear this will break him and our team. The IC Premium chat board is blowing up. Everyone is in agreement, Roy isn't getting it. There is a mixture of too many bad things and his coaching is a big part of it. This is the UNC team you will see over the next couple of years, get used to it.:confused:

Orange&BlackSheep
11-30-2010, 11:06 PM
this is heartbreaking. i cannot bear to watch it.

I really am having a hard time seeing how this group of players will make noise at any time during this season. Zeller is solid and Henson will get garbage buckets + a few jump hooks apparently. Threes can come from any number of the guards though it seems not any of them consistently. Barnes has a nice stroke but seems not to know how to get it off. I suggest he study the Kyle Singler playbook a bit.

Most problematically is their point guard play and their defense. This is not a good team and there is absolutely no evidence that it ever will be.

DevilHorns
11-30-2010, 11:07 PM
yes, he collects them and will one day hang a banner in the Smith Center to show how successful he was at not calling them.


its moving way to fast for UNC right now. a good coach would recognize this and try and slow things down a bit for them. Roy just isn't getting it and I fear this will break him and our team. The IC Premium chat board is blowing up. Everyone is in agreement, Roy isn't getting it. There is a mixture of too many bad things and his coaching is a big part of it. This is the UNC team you will see over the next couple of years, get used to it.:confused:

Was he this timid even during great years, such as 2005 and 2009, or is this something that he's particularly doing with this bunch of kids?

BattierBattalion
11-30-2010, 11:07 PM
When the Illini students chanted "Overrated" while Barnes was inbounding, I got chills.

Mike Corey
11-30-2010, 11:08 PM
It is a little peculiar to see this team struggle. There's a bevy of talent on this squad, and a more-than-serviceable point guard on the roster in Kendall Marshall.

I suspect that, if Roy-Will can figure out how to get the light to come on for this bunch, they'll be a force to be reckoned with.

Until then, it's divide and conquer. This squad does not play like a fist on either side of the ball.

DevilHorns
11-30-2010, 11:08 PM
Rodney Purvis twitter:

# 8 McDonald All-American wow ! 2 minutes ago via Twitter for iPhone

# Is exactly is the issue with UNC seriously ??

http://twitter.com/rpurvis_44

kong123
11-30-2010, 11:11 PM
Was he this timid even during great years, such as 2005 and 2009, or is this something that he's particularly doing with this bunch of kids?

perhaps the most famous time he should have used his timeouts was the final 4 game against Kansas where they jumped out to a 28 pt lead and no timeout was called.

in 2005 and 2009, those teams rarely lost and rarely got rattled. they were experienced kids who had an edge to them and a confidence that they were going to win the game no matter what. Roy needs to practice coaching during the game.

Starter
11-30-2010, 11:15 PM
That sort of thing will come with more experience.

Granted, Williams has been coaching for 22 years.

SuperTurkey
11-30-2010, 11:15 PM
Rodney Purvis twitter:

# 8 McDonald All-American wow ! 2 minutes ago via Twitter for iPhone

# Is exactly is the issue with UNC seriously ??

http://twitter.com/rpurvis_44

"Why Roy keep taking Reggie out ? That has to be so nerve racking !!!"

JasonEvans
11-30-2010, 11:17 PM
as I write this, BarnesBullochDrewIIMarshallStricklandMcdonaldStric kland are a combined 7-27 from the field. That's a sterling 25.9%.

That's not good.

--Jason "the perimeter play on this team is really bad" Evans

kong123
11-30-2010, 11:17 PM
"Why Roy keep taking Reggie out ? That has to be so nerve racking !!!"

i think Roy needs to cut his rotation down by two players and get some continuity. right now, there is none. everyone is performing poorly and keeps getting jerked out. like i said on the IC Chat board, its like watching a snowball roll down hill and straight into hell.

FerryFor50
11-30-2010, 11:19 PM
I wonder if this is the year that people start to realize that Roy Williams just isn't that good of a coach and simply leans on player talent to win games?

No strategy, no motivation and lots of whining. :)

CampbellBlueDevil
11-30-2010, 11:21 PM
Hahaha the commentator's impersonation of Roy's instructions were priceless

JasonEvans
11-30-2010, 11:22 PM
Aiiiir-ball, aiiiir-ball.

-Jason "Henson makes Mason look like JJ on the FT line" Evans

kong123
11-30-2010, 11:24 PM
that "overrated" chant is like nails on a chalk board. poor kid has the world coming down on him. wouldnt wish this on anyone.

pacificrounder
11-30-2010, 11:25 PM
I haven't been watching the game, but thought I would pass this funny exchange along from the Twitter universe:



Evan Daniels
@EvanDanielscout
And Larry Drew was a McDonald's All-American? He and the Wear twins can fight over who were the worst burger boy selections of the decade.

Dave Telep
@DaveTelep
@EvanDanielscout don't hang that one on me. Didn't vote for any of them.

Evan Daniels
I know you didn't... RT @DaveTelep don't hang that one on me. Didn't vote for any of them.


Funny stuff. GTHC!

CampbellBlueDevil
11-30-2010, 11:30 PM
UNC better start winning if they want to make the dance.

weezie
11-30-2010, 11:31 PM
Ahhh lordy, this is some hilariously bad hoops.

Looks like Huck is running off the court before the game clock is out?

FerryFor50
11-30-2010, 11:32 PM
UNC better start winning if they want to make the dance.

Wait... you mean you have to win games to get to the NCAAs? Weird. :p

Taco
11-30-2010, 11:32 PM
Glad Henson seems okay, that shot to the knee looked a little dicey in slo-mo.

Glad the only Big 10 team I'm rooting for in this year's challenge won :)

weezie
11-30-2010, 11:34 PM
I wonder if this is the year that people start to realize that Roy Williams just isn't that good of a coach and simply leans on player talent to win games?

No strategy, no motivation and lots of whining. :)


Yeah but lots of timeouts left at the end of every game. Don't forget those!

roywhite
11-30-2010, 11:38 PM
Ahhh lordy, this is some hilariously bad hoops.

Looks like Huck is running off the court before the game clock is out?

Hilarious...it's like Ole Roy is late for a tee time at the golf course:
hmmm....if I don't call any time-outs and leave a little early, maybe I can make it...

SuperTurkey
11-30-2010, 11:38 PM
Today I learned that Illinois is not very good, and UNC is a good bit worse.

roywhite
11-30-2010, 11:39 PM
Rodney Purvis twitter:

# 8 McDonald All-American wow ! 2 minutes ago via Twitter for iPhone

# Is exactly is the issue with UNC seriously ??

http://twitter.com/rpurvis_44

In a related story, Ronald McDonald is suing UNC to get his good name back.

FerryFor50
11-30-2010, 11:42 PM
Yeah but lots of timeouts left at the end of every game. Don't forget those!

You can cash them in for NIT tickets at the end of the season.

NashvilleDevil
11-30-2010, 11:43 PM
I only watched a little bit and I noticed that Roy does not seem to let the guys he has on the floor get in a rhythm. One minute it would be Barnes, Bullock, Marshall, Henson and Zeller and when I turned away it would be a different line-up. How does he expect these kids to play when they are getting pulled every dead ball?

TheDevilMadeMeDoIt
11-30-2010, 11:45 PM
For a good laugh go over to inside carolina and read their I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing. And be sure and check out Roy's press conference, his favorite words are "I" and "me". I have started counting the times he uses those words in every couple of sentences. Maybe since he can only coach with great talent that can run, he should at least try to emulate Coach K where it is always about team and the kids. Maybe it's the West Point ed where team is the whole concept. If Roy has another bad year, and he is well on his way, his recruiting will slip and then he will really be exposed as a weak bench coach.

CrazieDUMB
11-30-2010, 11:46 PM
Through the first six games:




FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P%
Prince Harry: 25-71 .352 7-21 .333
UNC 171-371 .461 28-76 .368
UNC w/o HB: 146-300 .486 21-55 .392

Just sayin...

FerryFor50
11-30-2010, 11:48 PM
On the year:




FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P%
Prince Harry: 25-71 .352 7-21 .333
UNC 171-371 .461 28-76 .368
UNC w/o HB: 146-300 .486 21-55 .392

Just sayin...

If that kid ever figures out team ball, look out.

Hopefully, he just keeps gunning. With every shot he takes, it's one step closer to the NIT. :)

Devilsfan
11-30-2010, 11:55 PM
I bet they're tearing him up worse on the IC than we are. I so glad they have that DUDE and we have KYRIE!!!!

SuperTurkey
11-30-2010, 11:56 PM
If that kid ever figures out team ball, look out.

Hopefully, he just keeps gunning. With every shot he takes, it's one step closer to the NIT. :)

UNC is looking more CBI than NIT right now.

Acymetric
12-01-2010, 12:08 AM
that "overrated" chant is like nails on a chalk board. poor kid has the world coming down on him. wouldnt wish this on anyone.

I promise this isn't meant to pick an argument with you, not is it sour grapes about Barnes choosing unc over Duke...but while I agree that this is rough on a young kid, he brought this on himself.

He did things throughout recruitment (and after recruitment) to get himself increased exposure, as he should have...that's how you build a brand, and if he wants to play pro and make bank in endorsements the earlier he starts building the better. The problem is, you then have to be able to take the pressure placed on you and perform. Fact is, pressure, and the risk of failing big time on a big stage, are a part of seeking stardom.

That said, I hope he figures himself out as soon as he makes it to the NBA and not a second sooner ;)

tecumseh
12-01-2010, 12:09 AM
Like Yogi said about the 90% mental part the stats don't tell the true story ever since HB had an of fer he has been horrid he was 3 of 12 against Charleston and 2 of 9 tonight and you figure with a couple of put backs lay ups that means he is missing like almost all of his shots. His confidence is totally shot. He has now has 4 consecutive bad shooting nights it is time to consider he might be a monumental BUST. The good news is the ACC is so down this year he should have enough easy games to get back his confidence.

FerryFor50
12-01-2010, 12:13 AM
Like Yogi said about the 90% mental part the stats don't tell the true story ever since HB had an of fer he has been horrid he was 3 of 12 against Charleston and 2 of 9 tonight and you figure with a couple of put backs lay ups that means he is missing like almost all of his shots. His confidence is totally shot. He has now has 4 consecutive bad shooting nights it is time to consider he might be a monumental BUST. The good news is the ACC is so down this year he should have enough easy games to get back his confidence.

I don't think you can call anyone a bust 7 games into a season, even a freshman preseason all-american.

striker219
12-01-2010, 12:15 AM
When the Illini students chanted "Overrated" while Barnes was inbounding, I got chills.

I'm not going to lie; I really enjoyed that. Like, really, really enjoyed it. And then I felt bad that I was enjoying watching some kid suffer out there. And then I didn't feel bad because that kid really, really brought this on himself with his actions and attitude for the last year. And with that realization, I enjoyed it a little bit more.

DevilHorns
12-01-2010, 12:23 AM
Like Yogi said about the 90% mental part the stats don't tell the true story ever since HB had an of fer he has been horrid he was 3 of 12 against Charleston and 2 of 9 tonight and you figure with a couple of put backs lay ups that means he is missing like almost all of his shots. His confidence is totally shot. He has now has 4 consecutive bad shooting nights it is time to consider he might be a monumental BUST. The good news is the ACC is so down this year he should have enough easy games to get back his confidence.


I don't think you can call anyone a bust 7 games into a season, even a freshman preseason all-american.

I agree that confidence is key and this string of terrible games has surely obliterated almost all of it.

Harrison was supposed to be a player with an extensive offensive arsenal. He has not shown any of that during this early season. The problem is as he struggles shooting, he becomes more timid offensively... he becomes less creative off the dribble... he becomes less likely to find a high% shot. All I saw from him today was darting around the perimeter tossing the ball around and every now and then taking an open shot. Very ordinary. He didn't try and take anyone off the dribble consistently. When he did, he was sluggish and lackluster. Nothing remotely like a game-changer type player.

Think about this: If you were on another planet during this off-season.... and saw UNC play today, what would you think of Barnes? You'd think he's a good player with some up-side, likely a 3-4 year player, probably 4 star out of high school. Right?

I think with this streak of bad games, against pretty average competition, he's likely not going to reach the pedestal that was expected of him. I think he will improve over the year, but he won't average 20-and-10 at a high FG% or anything remotely close to that.

davekay1971
12-01-2010, 12:39 AM
It all comes back to Roy and what he's doing or not doing with this team.

Carolina has: 2 really good interior players, a very promising freshman point guard, a couple role players who can hit open looks on the perimeter (Bullock and McDonald), a workhorse interior role guy who has some spirit in Knox, and a talented freshman on the wing who can develop into a strong 3 with time. That's the basis for a competitive team.

Carolina also has: a lot of dead weight on the perimeter, most particularly a junior PG that is regressing from bad to worse, and a coach who insists on giving the majority of the PT to the dead weight.

Carolina lacks: defensive intensity and therefore the ability to get out in transition regularly; any concept of how to generate consistent good looks in a half court offense; any semblance of team spirit, team unity, or heart; and a coach who is willing to adapt at all to his personnel.

Hopefully Roy will continue to try to force that square peg into the round hole, will continue to I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. and moan rather than adjust to what's happening on the court, and will, most importantly, keep running Drew out there as the starting PG while Marshall sits on the bench wondering when his coach is gonna start reading the DBR and get a clue.

ice-9
12-01-2010, 12:48 AM
To be fair, it looks worse than it actually is. Illinois was making some crazy shots -- turnaround fall away jumpers that hit nothing but net. If those went in at a normal rate the score would've been much closer.

The Heels are reeling, of that there's no doubt, but you can also see they have some very talented pieces on that roster. Zeller is a beast -- quick, mobile, high percentage shots. Henson is a constant shot blocking threat, long and very fast. We all must know that Prince Harry is better than he's looking right now. A decent coach should be able to win with those three key players and two or three complementary pieces (which UNC does have).

I put the blame on Roy.

ambitiouspear
12-01-2010, 12:54 AM
I think it's easy to forget how different the college game is from HS and how HS rankings don't always prove true. Check out Kemba Walker who was the #2 PG in his class and took until his junior year to really show his ability. Also consider Josh McRoberts, who if IIRC was the #2 recruit in his HS class overall.

My point is that we really have no idea what kind of player HB is going to be 5 games from now or at the end of the season (or next year for that matter). I did feel bad for the youngster with the overrated chants tonight.

SoCalDukeFan
12-01-2010, 12:59 AM
I have not seen UNC-CH much this year but see some see tonight.

I think it is pretty obvious that they need to play Marshall as point guard and give Bullock more minutes. A shorter bench with more continutiy would help as well.

Questions
1) Is Roy experimenting with different players and line ups and will shorten the bench and give his best minutes more PT once he determines the best players?

2)Or will Roy stick with Drew II as his main point guard or play all kind of combinations with no continuity?

This is an NIT runner team who lost 3 players that they expected to have back. They did pick up a valuable grad student which I guess was unexpected.

If they didn't play so poorly it woud be more fun to watch them lose. This was kind of a painful game to watch.

SoCal

quota
12-01-2010, 01:01 AM
that "overrated" chant is like nails on a chalk board. poor kid has the world coming down on him. wouldnt wish this on anyone.

I would agree with you, but Barnes made it perfectly before the season started that he was worthy of the hype. If you're going to talk the talk before even the first preseason game, you've got to be willing to take the heat when you can't manage to walk the walk.

I feel no sympathy for Prince Harry.

Duvall
12-01-2010, 01:06 AM
I have not seen UNC-CH much this year but see some see tonight.

I think it is pretty obvious that they need to play Marshall as point guard and give Bullock more minutes. A shorter bench with more continutiy would help as well.


Probably, but it's worth noting that both Marshall and Bullock kind of stunk tonight (http://www.fightingillini.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2010-2011/game-08.html). The Heels do not lack for problems, and there is no easy fix.

loran16
12-01-2010, 01:12 AM
Roy:

""If you’ve got enough balls to make somebody a big hero like that, admit that you were wrong, and stop picking on the kid. … It’s silly, if you’re going to anoint the guy and three weeks later crucify him, that’s ridiculous. He didn’t ask to be voted first-team pre-season All-America.”

Yeah, ummm dude, but that's why YOU recruited him. It's hard for me to be understanding when I'm pretty sure that you're thinking those same things, and perhaps even saying them behind closed doors.

timmy c
12-01-2010, 01:18 AM
Probably, but it's worth noting that both Marshall and Bullock kind of stunk tonight (http://www.fightingillini.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2010-2011/game-08.html). The Heels do not lack for problems, and there is no easy fix.

I’m with you Duvall, the box score reveals a plethora of problems.
http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=303340356

Barnes – Everything I would say has already been said in triplicate. I’m bored of the issue. Moving on…
PG position: Drew II: 24 minutes, 2 points, 7 assists, and 3 turnovers. Marshall: 16 minutes, 3 points, 2 assists and 4 turnovers. Ugly.
Free throws: 47% from the charity stripe. Henson and Zeller each 0-3.

quota
12-01-2010, 01:23 AM
Don't know if anyone else noticed, but at one point tonight, Roy yanked his starting lineup and spent a few minutes "coaching" them while the game was still going on.

Four of the five players had their focus solely on Ol' Roy. The fifth guy? Larry Drew II, who was blithely watching the basketball game and paying absolutely no attention to Huckleberry Hound.

Carolina's woes aren't due to an Xs and Os problem. It's a combination of a lack of discipline by certain players and Roy's stubbornness.

In other words, a complete repeat of 2010. I'm not saying it's going to be impossible for this team to make the NCAAT, but at this point I don't see how they're going to right the ship in time.

davekay1971
12-01-2010, 01:25 AM
Listening to the end of the game and Roy's post-game comments on the Tarhole Radio Network (cue goofy guitar music), I had just one question:

Who got into a bottle of Jack quicker after the game, Ol Roy or Woody Durham? I'm thinking Woody, but KenPom had it a 53.4% chance for Ol Roy.

Duvall
12-01-2010, 01:37 AM
Roy:

""If you’ve got enough balls to make somebody a big hero like that, admit that you were wrong, and stop picking on the kid. … It’s silly, if you’re going to anoint the guy and three weeks later crucify him, that’s ridiculous. He didn’t ask to be voted first-team pre-season All-America."

Roy Williams on Harrison Barnes, August 2010 (http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/08/08/619313/barnes-a-leader-in-the-making.html): "[H]e's the most focused high school player I've ever recruited, the most disciplined high school player I've ever recruited."

Roy Williams on Harrison Barnes, November 2010 (http://www.startribune.com/sports/gophers/blogs/109467134.html?elr=KArksi8cyaiUjc8LDyiUiD3aPc:_Yyc :aU6:iPhD_oD3aPc:i_kchO7DU): "That’s just too much pressure on the youngster. He’s a basketball player, he’s a human being. … I was dumbfounded by that, but I can’t control my own team, how can I control SportsCenter."

Dr. Rosenrosen
12-01-2010, 01:38 AM
I missed the game but was watching the highlights on ESPN. Unless they were simply guessing based on what they saw or exaggerating the situation, they just said that Zeller told Ol Roy after his second foul that he wanted to stay in the game. And then promptly picked up his third.

I could be wrong in my assumption here but I cannot imagine one of K's players showing that kind of stubbornness. I mean, that's borderline insubordinate. And Roy just let it happen. Just amazing.

loran16
12-01-2010, 01:58 AM
I missed the game but was watching the highlights on ESPN. Unless they were simply guessing based on what they saw or exaggerating the situation, they just said that Zeller told Ol Roy after his second foul that he wanted to stay in the game. And then promptly picked up his third.

I could be wrong in my assumption here but I cannot imagine one of K's players showing that kind of stubbornness. I mean, that's borderline insubordinate. And Roy just let it happen. Just amazing.

This isn't fair. It was obvious to everyone, INCLUDING Roy AND Zeller, that without Zeller in the game, Carolina was just not going to have any hope. He and Henson were their only weapons early, particularly Zeller. Roy couldn't afford to keep him out.

Did it not work? Of course. But it was a gamble that they had to take. Truthfully you could argue Roy should've kept Zeller in after he picked up his 3rd.

davekay1971
12-01-2010, 02:07 AM
I missed the game but was watching the highlights on ESPN. Unless they were simply guessing based on what they saw or exaggerating the situation, they just said that Zeller told Ol Roy after his second foul that he wanted to stay in the game. And then promptly picked up his third. .

Ol Roy relayed this exchange in his post game comments. I can't remember the exact wording he used but it basically went along the lines of this:

"I told the player that there were 9 minutes left in the half and that he had two fouls and I asked him if he could play intelligently and avoid a third foul. And he looked me in the eye and said 'yeah, Coach, I got this'. Then he picked up his third foul really quick. I should have done what I usually do and sat him down for a couple minutes to think about the fact he had two fouls, but I let him go right out there. It's my fault."

To Roy's credit, he did say it was his fault. Of course, that was right after he made it clear he'd explained the situation clearly to Zeller and Zeller had assured him he'd be able to play without picking up another foul. So, basically, Roy said it was his fault that he trusted his player.

In other news, by calling out ESPN for not having the cojones to admit they were wrong to hype up HB, he implied that he thinks HB was, as it turned out, overhyped.

Am I picking mercilessly on Ol Roy? Yes I am.

Cameron
12-01-2010, 02:13 AM
Am I picking mercilessly on Ol Roy? Yes I am.


That's all right. I'm watching Carolina at Illinois on ESPNU 1:30 a.m. replay -- and I'm watching the whole thing -- because Carolina is just that forgettable and I'm just that unwell. In the words of Kevin McCallister, this is great.

gewwang
12-01-2010, 02:28 AM
So, basically, Roy said it was his fault that he trusted his player.

Makes sense over there in Chapel Hill, after all it was Butch's fault that he trusted John Blake.

UrinalCake
12-01-2010, 06:18 AM
This squad does not play like a fist on either side of the ball.

I had a similar take after watching most of this game - UNC has some good individual talent, but they don't play together as a team. The bright spots were mostly one-on-one moves by Henson or Zeller.

That said, the game wasn't a complete disaster. They kept it close against a ranked team on the road. I think the pieces could still come together by the end of the season.

sagegrouse
12-01-2010, 06:36 AM
Ol Roy relayed this exchange in his post game comments. I can't remember the exact wording he used but it basically went along the lines of this:

"I told the player that there were 9 minutes left in the half and that he had two fouls and I asked him if he could play intelligently and avoid a third foul. And he looked me in the eye and said 'yeah, Coach, I got this'. Then he picked up his third foul really quick. I should have done what I usually do and sat him down for a couple minutes to think about the fact he had two fouls, but I let him go right out there. It's my fault."

To Roy's credit, he did say it was his fault. Of course, that was right after he made it clear he'd explained the situation clearly to Zeller and Zeller had assured him he'd be able to play without picking up another foul. So, basically, Roy said it was his fault that he trusted his player.

In other news, by calling out ESPN for not having the cojones to admit they were wrong to hype up HB, he implied that he thinks HB was, as it turned out, overhyped.

Am I picking mercilessly on Ol Roy? Yes I am.

On the pregame interview he said, responding to a question about Harrison Barnes: "Barnes is the least of my problems." True. During the first half, which is all I could watch, Barnes was a positive factor for the Heels. I can't say the same about the guards.

sagegrouse

calvindog
12-01-2010, 06:48 AM
Barnes is hardly getting blasted by ESPN; yesterday I watched a segment on him by Jay Bilas in which he discussed how complete a player he is. I just want to know: how can he be one of the five best players in the country when he's maybe the third best on such a crappy team?

Skitzle
12-01-2010, 07:14 AM
I dislike Harrison as much as anyone..

But he will figure it out and he will produce. Don't speak too soon, youll eat your words later.

roywhite
12-01-2010, 07:21 AM
This has been mentioned before, but I really don't understand this:

Playing a tough team on the road, with a young, inconsistent team that is prone to shaky stretches, how is it the coach does NOT use his timeouts to help control momentum swings and teach his team??

Yet Ole Roy finished the game with 4 timeouts remaining, meaning he didn't call a single timeout in the second half. Really, is there another coach in the country who would have done it that way?

davekay1971
12-01-2010, 07:55 AM
To be clear, I am NOT piling on HB with this post. His early season production (or lack thereof) isn't nearly enough for me to write him off as all hype. We've seen plenty of talented guys take a year or two to get it at the college level.

All that said, I heard a one-liner on AM sports radio this morning that made me laugh out loud.

Q: What's Spanish for Harrison Barnes?
A: Felipe Lopez

:)

Orange&BlackSheep
12-01-2010, 07:57 AM
Did anyone really watch that game last night and conclude that the team was more efficient with Marshall in? I watched and thought the offense ran at best equally poorly and thought the ball stagnated around the perimeter with Marshall in there. Marshall's attempts to penetrate looked even worse than LD II's who at least could dribble past someone before throwing it into the seats.

Playing Marshall feels to me like playing your highly drafted QB knowing full well you are surrendering this year for future (hopeful) excellence.

Faison1
12-01-2010, 08:01 AM
I ALMOST felt sorry for Harrison when the overrated chant started.

But, I think it's fair to say that it doesn't look like he is putting in 110% effort out there. The only way I know how to judge that is to compare Kyle's freshman year. Remember how hard he played? 10 games in, Coach K started telling everyone that Kyle was the difference maker for the team that year. They won the Maui Tourney in large part due to him....remember those free throws he sank? (Coincidentally, that might have been against Illinois.)

Harrison, in contrast, seems to be playing with about half the energy. For a kid that is supposed to be the ultimate in focused instesity, it sure looks like he is jogging around an awful lot.

davekay1971
12-01-2010, 08:14 AM
I read some convincing management data once upon a time that stated one of the top motivators in the workplace and one of the biggest factors in employee satisfaction was the feeling among workers that they are being put in a position to succeed.

Point being, as last year turned to crap on the Tarheels and as this year starts off rocky, I suspect the players, including the much hyped freshman, may be feeling that their coaching staff is not putting them in positions to succeed. Some of what we are perceiving as a lack of heart or intensity may actually be young men who simply aren't sure what they're supposed to do or how to succeed, and don't have the direction they need from management.

slower
12-01-2010, 08:30 AM
Don't know if anyone else noticed, but at one point tonight, Roy yanked his starting lineup and spent a few minutes "coaching" them while the game was still going on.

Four of the five players had their focus solely on Ol' Roy. The fifth guy? Larry Drew II, who was blithely watching the basketball game and paying absolutely no attention to Huckleberry Hound.

So you're saying there's a "cancer in the locker room"? AGAIN? Maybe Drew II is pissed that he keeps getting parking tickets. Barnes deserves whatever he gets and more - he has brought it on himself. Who cares if he's 18? An egomaniac is still an egomaniac. Marshall seems like a great kid - hope he does well.

weezie
12-01-2010, 08:36 AM
Barnes....
did things throughout recruitment (and after recruitment) to get himself increased exposure, as he should have...that's how you build a brand, and if he wants to play pro and make bank in endorsements the earlier he starts building the better...

Acy's right, and there you have the answer to why many people are fed up with the NBA.


Rats, I wish I could go over to IC and enjoy the party....but I have GOT to get ready to drive to the Ham later today for the BIG game against sparty tonight!!!

dukeballboy88
12-01-2010, 08:38 AM
After seeing Barnes play in high school, I never thought in my wildest dreams that lil roy could destroy him like this. I mean I new lil roy couldnt develope talent but I thought Barnes was a sure thing even after I predicted this team to go 8-8 in the ACC and finish around 6th or 7th. And Im here to let you guys know, the light just aint gonna turn on. These problems are mental and the frustration has set in with lil roy's inability to coach and that makes for a real long season!

They dont have anybody with any swagger. Bullock is the only guy with any swag at all. I new something was up with Barnes and Marshall when they didnt have Bullocks back when he was doing all that trash talk on draft express. When I saw how Barnes ran from it I new then he was either soft or he new he made a mistake!

Mike Corey
12-01-2010, 08:38 AM
I hope Harrison's as good as he thinks he is...

slower
12-01-2010, 08:44 AM
They dont have anybody with any swagger. Bullock is the only guy with any swag at all. I new something was up with Barnes and Marshall when they didnt have Bullocks back when he was doing all that trash talk on draft express. When I saw how Barnes ran from it I new then he was either soft or he new he made a mistake!

Or maybe they correctly realized that Bullock was classless for saying what he did. At least Barnes and Marshall showed some class, whereas Bullock didn't.

There's a difference between swagger and just being a punk.

In my heart, I think that Barnes will turn it around. Perhaps a dose of humility will make him a more tolerable person.

yancem
12-01-2010, 08:58 AM
It is a little peculiar to see this team struggle. There's a bevy of talent on this squad, and a more-than-serviceable point guard on the roster in Kendall Marshall.

I suspect that, if Roy-Will can figure out how to get the light to come on for this bunch, they'll be a force to be reckoned with.

Until then, it's divide and conquer. This squad does not play like a fist on either side of the ball.

I think that before Ol'Roy can get the light to come on for this group he is going to have to turn it on for himself. Marshall is just as slow as advertised but his passing is very strong and he seem to understand how to run an offense. If unc wants to start winning some games, Ol'Roy need to insert Marshall into the starting line up and slow down the pace. While unc has the athletes to run their decision making doesn't fit a hyper pace. They're too erratic.

devildeac
12-01-2010, 09:06 AM
as I write this, BarnesBullochDrewIIMarshallStricklandMcdonaldStric kland are a combined 7-27 from the field. That's a sterling 25.9%.

That's not good.

--Jason "the perimeter play on this team is really bad" Evans

Hey, let's not be too harsh. It is better than the 2/25 Cal shot against ND this weekend.:rolleyes:;)

devildeac
12-01-2010, 09:08 AM
i think Roy needs to cut his rotation down by two players and get some continuity. right now, there is none. everyone is performing poorly and keeps getting jerked out. like i said on the IC Chat board, its like watching a snowball roll down hill and straight into hell.

Funny you should use the reference "straight into hell.":D

9F

dukeballboy88
12-01-2010, 09:09 AM
I agreed that he showed class but the way he handled his entire recruitment was handled without any class. He strung K along and it was a plot by lil roy to smear it in K's face on nationaly tv and honeslty, Im glad its back firing.

But UNC, right now needs a lil atttitude. Someone needs to get mad maybe start a fight in practice or something because this is the softest team Ive ever seen!

oldnavy
12-01-2010, 09:13 AM
I read some convincing management data once upon a time that stated one of the top motivators in the workplace and one of the biggest factors in employee satisfaction was the feeling among workers that they are being put in a position to succeed.

Point being, as last year turned to crap on the Tarheels and as this year starts off rocky, I suspect the players, including the much hyped freshman, may be feeling that their coaching staff is not putting them in positions to succeed. Some of what we are perceiving as a lack of heart or intensity may actually be young men who simply aren't sure what they're supposed to do or how to succeed, and don't have the direction they need from management.

This is essentially what Jimmy Dykes said about UNC last night (as much as I hate to agree with him), and it is true. UNC doesn't know who they are collectively, and they have no leadership. I have said this enough, but it is worth repeating one more time, Roy couldn't lead a duck to water, and there is no on the floor leadership to pick up his slack. It's one thing when folks on DBR and IC say it, but when you start getting called out by the TV commentators it is getting pretty bad.

UNC should have won that game. They are better than Illinois, but once again, suspect substitutions and hoarding timeouts cost them. I commented to my wife during the last 6 or so minutes in the game when Roy took Henson out that he was making a mistake. Henson was the only one on offense that was doing anything and they needed points badly... I will never understand Roy's in game decisions I guess.

dukeballboy88
12-01-2010, 09:24 AM
I just read on the IC, a dude said harrison will probly not be affected that bad by the overrated chant cause he didnt know who they were chanting at. He said they are all overrated! hahahahahahahahah!


The IC boards destroy the Heels way more than we do!

Channing
12-01-2010, 09:28 AM
I know its early, but it looks like UNC is at a real risk of missing the tournament again. They still have UK and UT ooc and, they way they looked last night, they have no chance at winning either of those games. Given the relative weakness of the ACC this year, I am not sure that, absent knocking off Duke a couple of times, they can put up any wins against ranked teams all year. Would 9-7 in the ACC with zero wins against ranked teams do it this year?

JohnGalt
12-01-2010, 09:47 AM
Did anyone really watch that game last night and conclude that the team was more efficient with Marshall in? I watched and thought the offense ran at best equally poorly and thought the ball stagnated around the perimeter with Marshall in there. Marshall's attempts to penetrate looked even worse than LD II's who at least could dribble past someone before throwing it into the seats.

Playing Marshall feels to me like playing your highly drafted QB knowing full well you are surrendering this year for future (hopeful) excellence.

I'm firmly in the camp that believes Marshall should be running (albeit, not quickly) this group. All signs point toward Drew as the impetus behind the poor attitude and discombobulation the team has already routinely showed, only 7 games into the season. Drew has shown little to no improvement after 2 full years with a UNC jersey along with 3 off seasons where the general goal is to focus and improve upon your weaknesses. That, on top of the poor attitude he generally displays is enough - IMO - to sit him down in favor of Marshall.

Did Marshall have a particularly good game last night? No. Of course not. But nobody in the backcourt did in large part because of Roy's constant subbing. It's almost like he thinks he has Dawkins and Curry - two players capable of real contribution - on HIS bench. Ha. Court awareness, ball handling, and general Bball IQ were listed as Marshall's greatest strengths coming out of high school and for the most part (certainly moreso than Harrison) he has displayed all of the three. If Roy gives him the ball with the start and tells him, "Son, I want you to run this offense," I think he'll be able to settle things down, feed the post, and UNC can actually turn the thing around. He's young and they'll be bumps in the road, but Marshall is certainly better than the alternative...Drew.

And who knows? Maybe getting benched will motivate Drew rather than continue his attitude spiral. Probably not...but at this point, Roy's options are awfully limited.

Delaware
12-01-2010, 09:48 AM
I think that before Ol'Roy can get the light to come on for this group he is going to have to turn it on for himself. Marshall is just as slow as advertised but his passing is very strong and he seem to understand how to run an offense. If unc wants to start winning some games, Ol'Roy need to insert Marshall into the starting line up and slow down the pace. While unc has the athletes to run their decision making doesn't fit a hyper pace. They're too erratic.

I believe if Roy did a real coaching job, this would be the only chance this team has to be any good.

Limit possessions and have Marshall run the team much like Jon ran Duke last year, minimize turnovers, slow and steady.

They have two good low post options on offense. Get the ball inside every time and then put a couple shooters outside and hope they can at least hit a couple to keep the defense honest.

Play a zone defense.... they can put 5 guys with length on the court in Marshall, Barnes, Bullock, Henson and Zeller.

Only way to salvage this team and season.

g4orce
12-01-2010, 10:00 AM
Last night, for various reasons, I spent quite a bit of time on WRAL.com. Within minutes of Wake's win, wral updated their frontpage sports column to include the win. However, it was more than 2 hours after UNC's loss before they even acknowledged it. The timestamp indicates a little after midnight, but the actual headline did not make the frontpage until almost 2am. In fact, I didn't see any mention of Carolina's game status until almost 2am - no halftime score, etc... Maybe I missed it, but I looked and looked and nothing.

Is this the new reality for UNC basketball, that a loss isn't even a big deal? I mean, I would like to think so, b/c I always want to see UNC lose, but does one really bad season merit this kind of non-coverage?

Just curious.

trinity92
12-01-2010, 10:12 AM
Did anyone really watch that game last night and conclude that the team was more efficient with Marshall in? I watched and thought the offense ran at best equally poorly and thought the ball stagnated around the perimeter with Marshall in there. Marshall's attempts to penetrate looked even worse than LD II's who at least could dribble past someone before throwing it into the seats.

Playing Marshall feels to me like playing your highly drafted QB knowing full well you are surrendering this year for future (hopeful) excellence.

Exactly how I felt watching the game last night, my first time seeing unc this season. I'll admit my dirty little secret that I spend as much time reading IC as I do this board for the sheer joy and schadenfreude. Those fans are all over drew and point to marshall as their savior. I don't see it either. Last night, at least, he didn't take care of the ball and showed little playmaking skill. Drew's no picnic, and plays way too fast for his skill, but from my limited exposure to this year's unc team, I can see why roy is continuing to play drew more. At least drew can penetrate. I didn't see that ability from Marshall at all. Honestly, it went through my mind they could really use a player like Tyler Thornton. Ah well-- since he wasn't a McD AA, he must never have shown up on roy's radar

moonpie23
12-01-2010, 10:23 AM
http://www.wralsportsfan.com/college_basketball/story/8705306/


not one single word of HWNSNBM

obsesseddukefan
12-01-2010, 10:31 AM
I count my Pink Hearts, Orange Stars, Yellow Moons, Green Clovers, Blue Diamonds, and Purple Horseshoes that we did not get Harrison Barnes. In fact, I will go as far to say I think he is overrated. I don't think he is fittting well in UNC program at all. Here are some stats that I find interesting:

Lipscomb 6-12
Hofstra 7-11
Minnesota 0-12
Vanderbilt 4-12
UNC-Ash 5-12
Col Charl 3-12
Illinois 2-9

Not the most impressing numbers. I believe he has the talent, I don't dispute that at all, I just think maybe he may be regreting his decision to go to the lighter side of blue. ;)

yancem
12-01-2010, 10:34 AM
To be clear, I am NOT piling on HB with this post. His early season production (or lack thereof) isn't nearly enough for me to write him off as all hype. We've seen plenty of talented guys take a year or two to get it at the college level.

All that said, I heard a one-liner on AM sports radio this morning that made me laugh out loud.

Q: What's Spanish for Harrison Barnes?
A: Felipe Lopez

:)

That's funny because the same name comes to my mind when I think about how things are going for Barnes so far? Right now I think the pressure to live up to the hype is crushing him. I think that McRoberts might be another good comparison. Lots of talent and solid numbers but never quite as good as everyone thought he should be.

If he can get one momentum game things could change fast but the longer it takes for that game to come the harder it becomes to roll the snowball back up the hill.

flyingdutchdevil
12-01-2010, 10:37 AM
Exactly how I felt watching the game last night, my first time seeing unc this season. I'll admit my dirty little secret that I spend as much time reading IC as I do this board for the sheer joy and schadenfreude.

You and me both. I found this gem just now and I had to share it with all of you. The context is the OP is asking whether Ole Roy is recruiting too many "nice guys":



Then again, duke has a bunch of nice guys too. But their nice guys pushed our nice guys down on the playground and took our lunch money and our girl.

ajgoodfella7
12-01-2010, 10:40 AM
I count my Pink Hearts, Orange Stars, Yellow Moons, Green Clovers, Blue Diamonds, and Purple Horseshoes that we did not get Harrison Barnes. In fact, I will go as far to say I think he is overrated. I don't think he is fittting well in UNC program at all. Here are some stats that I find interesting:

Lipscomb 6-12
Hofstra 7-11
Minnesota 0-12
Vanderbilt 4-12
UNC-Ash 5-12
Col Charl 3-12
Illinois 2-9

Not the most impressing numbers. I believe he has the talent, I don't dispute that at all, I just think maybe he may be regreting his decision to go to the lighter side of blue. ;)

It's still early, but the truth of the matter is I have not been impressed with Barnes's skill-set to this point. I expected him to struggle a bit as a freshman, but quite honestly, I don't see his talent level being anything close to that of a #1 overall recruit. His jump shot has been average, his ballhandling has been average, his defense has been average, and his athleticism is suspect. On top of all that, we always hear about his superior work ethic, and truth be told, he sometimes has looked downright lazy on the court. I have seen him jogging back on defense multiple times in the 3 games I've seen him. I know a lot of people think its freshman jitters, but I see some big holes in his game.

theAlaskanBear
12-01-2010, 10:51 AM
When I watched Carolina play I was astonished.

1) they have no confidence
2) they have no toughness (which ties into point one)
3) Roy is doing an awful job with substitutions and rhythm

I have a feeling that Roy is not setting them up to succeed (USE A SYSTEM THAT PROPERLY UTILIZES YOUR PLAYERS -- even if you have to entirely run sets and call every play...you are the COACH), and when they fail he says things that are destroying their confidence.

Carolina could have beaten Illinois last night. For most of the first half and parts of the second Illinois had no idea what they were doing on offense -- just spinning the ball from side to side on the perimeter.

Illinois big men do have awfully sweet and hooks and turnarounds (Tisdale and Davis). I want to know who teaches them that.

CharlestonDevil
12-01-2010, 11:03 AM
Are we sure UNC ever fired Matt DOHerty? Because from what I've seen lately the old guy on the bench seems to be having about as much coaching success.

sagegrouse
12-01-2010, 11:17 AM
From what I have seen, I agree with Roy that "Barnes is the least of my problems." Moreover, Zeller and Henson are considerable assets because of their skills inside and on defense.

But basketball is really a guards' game, and UNC's guards look totally lost. They got the ball to Henson and Zeller a couple of times to very good effect, but only a couple of times. HB ain't gonna channel LeBron or Grant Hill and play point forward. Therefore, he will succeed only as part of an offense that can get him the ball in position to score.

Without good guard play a basketball team is like a school of jellyfish trying to do synchronized swimming -- i.e., without a central nervous system.

sagegrouse

MulletMan
12-01-2010, 11:18 AM
Duke v. Kansas State post-game thread, 7 pages, 136 posts

Duke v. Oregon post-game thread 4 pages, 78 posts

UNC v. Illinois post-game thread 5 pages, 100 posts

Uh huh. The slow descent into becoming another Inside Carolina-esque board continues...

alteran
12-01-2010, 11:23 AM
Duke v. Kansas State post-game thread, 7 pages, 136 posts

Duke v. Oregon post-game thread 4 pages, 78 posts

UNC v. Illinois post-game thread 5 pages, 100 posts

Uh huh. The slow decent into becoming another Inside Carolina-esque board continues...

Strangely, IC doesn't have a single Duke-related thread right now.

pfrduke
12-01-2010, 11:23 AM
Duke v. Kansas State post-game thread, 7 pages, 136 posts

Duke v. Oregon post-game thread 4 pages, 78 posts

UNC v. Illinois post-game thread 5 pages, 100 posts

Uh huh. The slow decent into becoming another Inside Carolina-esque board continues...

Don't worry. After a loss we'll get a thread that's 17 pages or so. Although that still may be consistent with your "slow de[s]cent" theory.

Duvall
12-01-2010, 11:23 AM
Duke v. Kansas State post-game thread, 7 pages, 136 posts

Duke v. Oregon post-game thread 4 pages, 78 posts

UNC v. Illinois post-game thread 5 pages, 100 posts

Uh huh. The slow decent into becoming another Inside Carolina-esque board continues...

This isn't a post-game thread, it's an in-game, post-game and omnibus thread. It's not really a meaningful comparison when there are at least four separate threads for every Duke game (pre-game/in-game, post-game, MOTM, and charting).

DevilHorns
12-01-2010, 11:34 AM
Strangely, IC doesn't have a single Duke-related thread right now.

They're feverishly made in clusters and disposed of by the mods just the same.

JohnGalt
12-01-2010, 11:45 AM
Uh huh. The slow decent into becoming another Inside Carolina-esque board continues...


Don't worry. After a loss we'll get a thread that's 17 pages or so. Although that still may be consistent with your "slow de[s]cent" theory.

Perhaps it's meant as a vote of confidence for Marshall who's slow, yet still pretty decent?

JasonEvans
12-01-2010, 11:47 AM
I want to be clear about one thing at the start of this post...

I think Roy has done a horrible job with this team so far and they are clearly not playing up to their talent level. There is a lack of urgency, leadership, and perimeter play. Things have not gone well so far.

But now it is time for some perspective.

The season is young. They have played all of 7 games so far. That is about 1/5th of their schedule. There is tons of time to fix things. There is going to be a lot of time in December for practices to work on what they need to work on and get better. Will they get better? I have no idea, but it would be foolish to write the season off and says it is too late.

The team is young. If you look at the 10 guys who get double-digit minutes, 6 of them are freshmen or sophs. The 7th (Knox) is brand new to the Carolina program. The 8th (Watts) was a scrub before this season and is playing meaningful minutes for the first time in his career. The 9th (Zeller) has had each of his previous two seasons ended early due to injury and really only has one season of experience. The 10th (Drew II) has no excuses but the rest of the roster is full of guys with very limited college experience. Will they get better? I have no idea, but history is full of young teams that take until Jan or Feb to really come together.

The losses have been to good teams. Sure, the 3 losses have been to teams the Heels probably could have beat but it is not like they went out and lost to College of Charleston (though they came close). Last night's Illinois loss in particular is not that big of a danger sign as the Illini are a tournament-caliber team and they were playing at home.

The schedule shapes up fairly well. The games with Kentucky and Texas will be tough (though playing in Chapel Hill and Gboro will give UNC a boost), but the rest of the non-conference sked is not that bad. Rutgers in MSG is the toughest other test and Carolina projects as a pretty solid favorite (KenPom says 78% chance of a win). Even if they drop the games to Kentucky and Texas, the Heels will likely enter the ACC sked with a record of 9-5. As for the ACC, we have all commented on how bad it looks. Does anyone really think the TarHeels are going to go worse than 8-8 in the conference? That would put them at 17-13 and UNC at 17-13 would be in the dance.

And that is about the worst case scenario I believe can happen. This team has looked pretty bad at times, but they are just so loaded with talent I have a hard time seeing them going into a free fall. I can find scenarios where it happens -- they lose at Evansville and to Rutgers sending their confidence into a free-fall and the season into a tailspin -- but I think that is a bit of a longshot.

Make no mistake, 17-13 or even 18-12 (which is what I think the Heels will finish) is a disappointing record for a team with this much talent, but it is not a disastrous season. In many ways, a poor record like that could damage the stock of Barnes and Henson enough so that they stick around another season. If Roy can keep this team in tact for next year, they could be extremely potent when they add PF James McAdoo and SG PJ Hairston.

--Jason "ready for the most telling stat about UNC so far-- they have exactly one senior, newbie Justin Knox" Evans

MulletMan
12-01-2010, 11:47 AM
Perhaps it's meant as a vote of confidence for Marshall who's slow, yet still pretty decent?

HA HA! Indeed.

I'll fix it...

Kedsy
12-01-2010, 12:04 PM
The schedule shapes up fairly well. The games with Kentucky and Texas will be tough (though playing in Chapel Hill and Gboro will give UNC a boost), but the rest of the non-conference sked is not that bad. Rutgers in MSG is the toughest other test and Carolina projects as a pretty solid favorite (KenPom says 78% chance of a win). Even if they drop the games to Kentucky and Texas, the Heels will likely enter the ACC sked with a record of 9-5. As for the ACC, we have all commented on how bad it looks. Does anyone really think the TarHeels are going to go worse than 8-8 in the conference? That would put them at 17-13 and UNC at 17-13 would be in the dance.

And that is about the worst case scenario I believe can happen. This team has looked pretty bad at times, but they are just so loaded with talent I have a hard time seeing them going into a free fall. I can find scenarios where it happens -- they lose at Evansville and to Rutgers sending their confidence into a free-fall and the season into a tailspin -- but I think that is a bit of a longshot.

Make no mistake, 17-13 or even 18-12 (which is what I think the Heels will finish) is a disappointing record for a team with this much talent, but it is not a disastrous season. In many ways, a poor record like that could damage the stock of Barnes and Henson enough so that they stick around another season. If Roy can keep this team in tact for next year, they could be extremely potent when they add PF James McAdoo and SG PJ Hairston.

I agree with you in general. I think at some point in January or February the light bulb will go on and they'll put together a little winning streak and get their confidence back. I especially agree that UNC will be a good team next year, and if Barnes sticks around through his junior year they could be really good in 2012-13.

However, when you say 17-13 will get them into the dance, you've left out the ACCT. What happens if they lose their first ACCT game and are 17-14 on Selection Sunday. They get a break with the tournament going up to 68 teams, but I say at 17-14 (or even 18-14) they'll still be firmly on the bubble, with a decent chance of falling onto the wrong side.

quota
12-01-2010, 12:09 PM
Duke v. Kansas State post-game thread, 7 pages, 136 posts

Duke v. Oregon post-game thread 4 pages, 78 posts

UNC v. Illinois post-game thread 5 pages, 100 posts

Uh huh. The slow descent into becoming another Inside Carolina-esque board continues...

You can't control your own board, how do you expect to control Inside Carolina?

IC is the least of your problems. Maybe the pressure is getting to you.

DevilWolf
12-01-2010, 12:14 PM
When I watch a Duke game on TV, I have the computer off and I'm 100% focused on the game.

When I watch a UNC game on TV, I sit back with a drink and my laptop and might occasionally post about something I saw during the game.

I imagine there's a good # of people who do the same, and when you factor in that the UNC threads are pre, during, and post game threads all in one, doesn't shock me that UNC threads are longer.

flyingdutchdevil
12-01-2010, 12:20 PM
When I watch a Duke game on TV, I have the computer off and I'm 100% focused on the game.

When I watch a UNC game on TV, I sit back with a drink and my laptop and might occasionally post about something I saw during the game.

I imagine there's a good # of people who do the same, and when you factor in that the UNC threads are pre, during, and post game threads all in one, doesn't shock me that UNC threads are longer.

Furthermore, I feel that there are talking points when a team loses than when a team wins (National Championships not included, of course ;)). When we win, we praise the top performers and may slightly criticize the underperforming players (if any). However, when a team loses, people go insane, proposing different line-ups, minute allocation, fatigue, etc. etc. This is where there are significantly more debates, theories, and opinions, leading to more frequent postings.

JohnGalt
12-01-2010, 12:21 PM
The schedule shapes up fairly well. The games with Kentucky and Texas will be tough (though playing in Chapel Hill and Gboro will give UNC a boost), but the rest of the non-conference sked is not that bad. Rutgers in MSG is the toughest other test and Carolina projects as a pretty solid favorite (KenPom says 78% chance of a win). Even if they drop the games to Kentucky and Texas, the Heels will likely enter the ACC sked with a record of 9-5. As for the ACC, we have all commented on how bad it looks. Does anyone really think the TarHeels are going to go worse than 8-8 in the conference? That would put them at 17-13 and UNC at 17-13 would be in the dance.

--Jason "ready for the most telling stat about UNC so far-- they have exactly one senior, newbie Justin Knox" Evans

The only problem with their schedule is of their final 8 games, 2 are against Duke, 1 against Maryland, 1 IN Raleigh, and 1 in Tallahassee. Those are 5 games that - depending on their level of improvement - they could certainly lose. We all know how the committee, rightly or wrongly, favors recent performance. As such, if they lose 5 of the final 8 and fall in the first game of the ACCs, I think they'd have a hard time getting in the Dance. And that doesn't count having to go to Virginia - who's surprised early - AND having VPI in Chapel Hill earlier in the year.

Unless we can discern a more noticeable upward trend, I'm not sure them getting into the Dance is much higher than a coin flip.

As for now, 8-8 in the conference should be the goal

grossbus
12-01-2010, 12:38 PM
kong, i thought this was genuinely funny...:D

"yes, he collects them and will one day hang a banner in the Smith Center to show how successful he was at not calling them."

quota
12-01-2010, 12:40 PM
Does anyone really think the TarHeels are going to go worse than 8-8 in the conference? That would put them at 17-13 and UNC at 17-13 would be in the dance.

Sure, I could absolutely see this Tarheel team losing nine games in conference. Actually, I think it's quite possible they lose 10 games.

Possible losses:
VaTech
Clemson
NCSU
FSU
@Duke
@Clemson
@NCSU
Maryland
@FSU
Duke

And, with as weak as the ACC appears to be early on, I don't think an even conference record is any guarantee of a spot in the dance.

Look, this is the same song and dance we went through last year. The whole "don't speak to soon because they'll figure things out" never panned out so much. Things don't appear to have changed all that much, so I guess I don't understand all the optimism?

oldnavy
12-01-2010, 12:50 PM
I agree with you in general. I think at some point in January or February the light bulb will go on and they'll put together a little winning streak and get their confidence back. I especially agree that UNC will be a good team next year, and if Barnes sticks around through his junior year they could be really good in 2012-13.

However, when you say 17-13 will get them into the dance, you've left out the ACCT. What happens if they lose their first ACCT game and are 17-14 on Selection Sunday. They get a break with the tournament going up to 68 teams, but I say at 17-14 (or even 18-14) they'll still be firmly on the bubble, with a decent chance of falling onto the wrong side.

Why do you think that? That is when the team last year started to unravel. Is it because of the history and you have a hard time believing that they can stink it up two years in a row or do you see something going on that makes you think the light will come on? I am not being sarcastic at all, I really do want to know what makes you or anyone think that they will get better rather than worse. I think that they could turn it on, but I am not seeing any signs that make me think that it will happen...

arnie
12-01-2010, 12:54 PM
The play that struck me last night was a 1st half semi-fast break by ILL. As a good shooting guard from the top of key was receiving the ball, HB was jogging down court heading to the baseline (I guess). As HB passed the player receiving the pass, the guard shot an uncontested three. Almost as though Barnes knew the shooter wasn't "his man" and ignored him. Commentator stated that you can't leave this shooter open.

Appears that Roy needs to attend one of K's summer camps and learn the art of defense.

roywhite
12-01-2010, 01:02 PM
The play that struck me last night was a 1st half semi-fast break by ILL. As a good shooting guard from the top of key was receiving the ball, HB was jogging down court heading to the baseline (I guess). As HB passed the player receiving the pass, the guard shot an uncontested three. Almost as though Barnes knew the shooter wasn't "his man" and ignored him. Commentator stated that you can't leave this shooter open.

Appears that Roy needs to attend one of K's summer camps and learn the art of defense.

I noticed that, and also saw HB reach on defense when he should have been moving his feet. He doesn't seem to have a commitment for defense yet, or has not yet grasped the importance of it. That doesn't necessarily come easy for freshman, but I can't help but recall how quickly Shane Battier (a very highly recruited player in same size range) understood and applied team defensive concepts in his first year.

El_Diablo
12-01-2010, 01:02 PM
One decision in the second half that struck me as interesting was that, after UNC strung together a little run (with some made shots and defensive stops) to close the gap to 11 points, Roy subbed out all five players.

Illinois quickly pushed the lead back to 15.

OldPhiKap
12-01-2010, 01:05 PM
Does anyone really think the TarHeels are going to go worse than 8-8 in the conference?

Jason, I agree with your whole post except perhaps the above. The ACC is down, and Carolina is stuck in the mire with everyone else. I don't see them being clearly head and shoulders above anyone else (heck, UVA and Wake are the only winners in the ACC-B## Challenge right now). They have no point guard, little back court shooting, and are a foul or injury away from a problem on the front line. Not to mention a coach trying to get out of a position he has only found himself in once before, apparently -- and had an epic fail of it last season.

I'm not throwing dirt on the grave yet -- Carolina is a dangerous team. And they have a great potential to improve. But they have the potential to implode as well, especially if KY and TX crack hard. Heck, Illinois won handily yesterday in a very unimpressive performance by the Illini.

I could see Carolina going 10-6 in the confreence. I could see 5-9, with Clemson finally winning in Chapel Hill. At which point, the Earth will open and the south side of 15-501 will plummet to the liquid magma center.

{that's right -- I said magma}

MChambers
12-01-2010, 01:06 PM
Sure, I could absolutely see this Tarheel team losing nine games in conference. Actually, I think it's quite possible they lose 10 games.

Possible losses:
VaTech
Clemson
NCSU
FSU
@Duke
@Clemson
@NCSU
Maryland
@FSU
Duke
You do realize that Clemson has never won in Chapel Hill, right? Just looking at the teams, I agree Clemson could win, in theory, but in practice Clemson won't, if history is any guide. But if Clemson does, expect mass hysteria in Chapel Hill. Klemnop, are you out there?

Acymetric
12-01-2010, 01:21 PM
You do realize that Clemson has never won in Chapel Hill, right? Just looking at the teams, I agree Clemson could win, in theory, but in practice Clemson won't, if history is any guide. But if Clemson does, expect mass hysteria in Chapel Hill. Klemnop, are you out there?

Its going to happen eventually, no reason it couldn't be this year.

Kedsy
12-01-2010, 01:24 PM
Why do you think that? That is when the team last year started to unravel. Is it because of the history and you have a hard time believing that they can stink it up two years in a row or do you see something going on that makes you think the light will come on? I am not being sarcastic at all, I really do want to know what makes you or anyone think that they will get better rather than worse. I think that they could turn it on, but I am not seeing any signs that make me think that it will happen...

I envision a time when Roy throws up his hands and says, "freshmen, you've got to lead us out of this," and starts the lineup everyone around here thinks he should anyway: Marshall, Bullock, Barnes, Henson, Zeller. Whether they're playing well now, there's a decent chance that the three freshmen say, "hey, it's our team now," and start playing better. If they win their first game (or even play well and lose a close game to a quality opponent), they'll gain some confidence, which will increase with each game where they continue to play well. Drew either shapes up or drops out of the rotation. McDonald and Strickland either step up as offensive-minded sixth/seventh men, or also drop out. Knox remains steady and Watts probably drops into oblivion, leaving UNC with a manageable 8-man rotation.

Obviously this is hypothetical, but you see this sort of dynamic all the time with teams whose freshman class is more talented than their upperclassmen. Early on, the coach is hesitant to bench his experienced players and the freshmen play like they're afraid to fail, but eventually the coach comes around and when he shows confidence in his freshmen by starting them, they respond.

Not saying it's definitely going to happen, but I have a hunch it will, at least to some extent.

oldnavy
12-01-2010, 01:33 PM
I envision a time when Roy throws up his hands and says, "freshmen, you've got to lead us out of this," and starts the lineup everyone around here thinks he should anyway: Marshall, Bullock, Barnes, Henson, Zeller. Whether they're playing well now, there's a decent chance that the three freshmen say, "hey, it's our team now," and start playing better. If they win their first game (or even play well and lose a close game to a quality opponent), they'll gain some confidence, which will increase with each game where they continue to play well. Drew either shapes up or drops out of the rotation. McDonald and Strickland either step up as offensive-minded sixth/seventh men, or also drop out. Knox remains steady and Watts probably drops into oblivion, leaving UNC with a manageable 8-man rotation.

Obviously this is hypothetical, but you see this sort of dynamic all the time with teams whose freshman class is more talented than their upperclassmen. Early on, the coach is hesitant to bench his experienced players and the freshmen play like they're afraid to fail, but eventually the coach comes around and when he shows confidence in his freshmen by starting them, they respond.

Not saying it's definitely going to happen, but I have a hunch it will, at least to some extent.

Not a bad theory at all, but I believe there is one problem which I highlighted above :D

Here is what I see.
- A young team that is under performing.
- A coach who showed us last year that he is not one to rise up and face adversity and overcome it. His first time on the hot seat last year and he failed miserably. He didn’t just fail, he embarrassed himself time and time again.
- A team with real or perceived chemistry issues.
- DrewII sulks, and will eventually lose his starting job (which I think he should). How will he handle the demotion?
- HB looks like a total head case right now. No confidence and no idea what he should be doing. He has talent, but he is being exposed as not the talent he was built up to be, and I believe it is eating at him and eroding his teammates confidence while perhaps creating a little animosity for all the hype.
- Roy says HB isn’t his main concern. Well yes and no. HB is a major distraction on this team. He is not performing and at times actually hurting the team by taking bad shots, and not taking the good shots he is presented with. He basically is just standing around waiting for an open look. Roy either needs to run the offense through him and get the most of his talents or bring him off the bench as a role player. If HB continues to do what he is doing, UNC will continue to lose.
- HB is not the only problem. Why does Bullock only get 12-15 minutes a game? He is one of the few players on that team that can score consistently. This has to be eating at him, watching Drew, and Strickland clank shots left and right. I still predict that this will bubble up at some point if he doesn’t start to get more PT.

The pieces are all there for a good run and turn around, the problem is I do not believe the guy in charge of putting the puzzle together has the faintest idea of what to do. Maybe he will surprise me, but I don’t think so.

But you may be right, IF Roy gets out of the way, this team could be very good.

alteran
12-01-2010, 01:33 PM
You do realize that Clemson has never won in Chapel Hill, right? Just looking at the teams, I agree Clemson could win, in theory, but in practice Clemson won't, if history is any guide. But if Clemson does, expect mass hysteria in Chapel Hill. Klemnop, are you out there?

Klemnop will not fall for this. He is totally aware that the universe does not work in this manner. He has patiently explained to us wayward Duke fans the sad, cruel way of the world, and why a Clemson victory in the Dump, while greatly desirable, is simply not a possible occurrence.

We could all learn from his strength, wisdom, and acceptance of that which is simply destined not to be.

JasonEvans
12-01-2010, 01:44 PM
Jason, I agree with your whole post except perhaps the above. The ACC is down, and Carolina is stuck in the mire with everyone else. I don't see them being clearly head and shoulders above anyone else (heck, UVA and Wake are the only winners in the ACC-B## Challenge right now). They have no point guard, little back court shooting, and are a foul or injury away from a problem on the front line. Not to mention a coach trying to get out of a position he has only found himself in once before, apparently -- and had an epic fail of it last season.

I'm not throwing dirt on the grave yet -- Carolina is a dangerous team. And they have a great potential to improve. But they have the potential to implode as well, especially if KY and TX crack hard. Heck, Illinois won handily yesterday in a very unimpressive performance by the Illini.

I could see Carolina going 10-6 in the confreence. I could see 5-9, with Clemson finally winning in Chapel Hill. At which point, the Earth will open and the south side of 15-501 will plummet to the liquid magma center.

{that's right -- I said magma}

Magma... I am giving you pitchfork points for that!

I must admit, as I wrote my post I hesitated on the record prediction part. As I stated later in the post, there is a possibility that the Heels go into a funk and free fall if a couple things break badly over the next month. In that case, I could see another sub-.500 ACC season for them. The talent is assuredly there to be well above .500 in the ACC, but is the toughness and leadership?

The first half of their ACC schedule really intrigues me. They play the easier teams on the road (Va, GaT, Miami, BC) and the tougher teams at home (VaT, Clem, NCSU, FSU). We can quibble about whether Clemson and/or maybe BC or Miami is an easier or tougher team but I think you see my point. This kind of schedule can sometimes work out really well (win against hard teams at home and get easier games on the road for wins) or it can be a disaster (lose to beatable teams on the road and struggle to beat better teams at home). It is not crazy to say that all those games will be reasonably close to being toss-ups. There are no sure wins and no sure losses. Depending on the psyche of the Carolina team, you could see something crazy like 7-1 or 1-7 from those 8 games.

--Jason "they have got to get some leadership" Evans

Kedsy
12-01-2010, 01:46 PM
The pieces are all there for a good run and turn around, the problem is I do not believe the guy in charge of putting the puzzle together has the faintest idea of what to do. Maybe he will surprise me, but I don’t think so.

But you may be right, IF Roy gets out of the way, this team could be very good.

I know your opinion of Roy, and the last year or so seem to validate your view of him as a stubborn, clueless hick who only knows one way to operate. But the 20 or so years before that suggest otherwise -- that he does know how to get the most out of what he has. Perhaps he's gotten more stubborn with age, but I don't think he's completely lost it. I'm certainly rooting against it, but if someone forced me to bet I'd put my money on at least a minor turnaround for the Heels.

JasonEvans
12-01-2010, 01:47 PM
Its going to happen eventually, no reason it couldn't be this year.

They've been saying that for 84 years. Ain't happened yet. Pigs will fly when it does.

--Jason "http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:Sxs-xVXbe51amM:http://www.platowa.com/images/flying_pig.gif&t=1" Evans

SuperTurkey
12-01-2010, 01:51 PM
Pigs will fly when it does.

--Jason "http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:Sxs-xVXbe51amM:http://www.platowa.com/images/flying_pig.gif&t=1" Evans

You know Smithers, I think I'll donate a million dollars to the local orphanage . . . when pigs fly. (http://www.hulu.com/watch/19878/the-simpsons-flying-pig)

OldPhiKap
12-01-2010, 02:09 PM
Magma... I am giving you pitchfork points for that!

I must admit, as I wrote my post I hesitated on the record prediction part. As I stated later in the post, there is a possibility that the Heels go into a funk and free fall if a couple things break badly over the next month. In that case, I could see another sub-.500 ACC season for them. The talent is assuredly there to be well above .500 in the ACC, but is the toughness and leadership?

The first half of their ACC schedule really intrigues me. They play the easier teams on the road (Va, GaT, Miami, BC) and the tougher teams at home (VaT, Clem, NCSU, FSU). We can quibble about whether Clemson and/or maybe BC or Miami is an easier or tougher team but I think you see my point. This kind of schedule can sometimes work out really well (win against hard teams at home and get easier games on the road for wins) or it can be a disaster (lose to beatable teams on the road and struggle to beat better teams at home). It is not crazy to say that all those games will be reasonably close to being toss-ups. There are no sure wins and no sure losses. Depending on the psyche of the Carolina team, you could see something crazy like 7-1 or 1-7 from those 8 games.

--Jason "they have got to get some leadership" Evans

Agreed, the players need to take ownership of their team but are lacking a leader to do so. (And it is hard to do as a freshman, or as the commentators noted last night, from the back line like Zeller).

And, if UVA shoots threes like they did the other night, and you mix that with UNC's traditional non-perimeter defense -- I would not be surprised to see UVA with that one. The players at least buy into the coach's system up there.

ice-9
12-01-2010, 02:29 PM
He basically is just standing around waiting for an open look. Roy either needs to run the offense through him and get the most of his talents or bring him off the bench as a role player. If HB continues to do what he is doing, UNC will continue to lose.

I disagree with this part in that Roy should not give HB the ball to initiate the offense; that's what he's kinda doing already with HB on the perimeter.

Instead Roy should use HB the way we use Singler. A little motion to get HB cuts that allow him to shoot over smaller opponents nearer the basket. Screens to catch and shoot from 3-pt range. Post up against smaller opponents (which he did nicely for his and one against Illinois in the beginning). Set picks and either pop/roll. Crash the glass for putbacks. The truth is HB is a mismatch at either the 3 or 4, and he should be used to maximize those mismatches. Asking him to create from the perimeter without any motion, screens, picks, or anything really...is not it.

I wrote this in the Challenge thread, but I think the formula for UNC is very straightforward:

- 3 key pieces: Zeller, Henson and Barnes. These three should aim to contribute 50-60 points every game

- Consequently, offense should start inside-out

- Slow pace with an emphasis on a half-court game; fewer possessions will also help their thin frontcourt

- Extreme focus on rebounding which they can do very well with those three

- Defense, defense and defense -- similar to us last year, they are tall at every position and should be able to bother a lot of teams with their length. Maybe even a zone

- Rotate shooters at the 1 and 2; the PG needs to do a Scheyer in that he doesn't have to penetrate, he just needs to bring the ball up without turning it over and make open jump shots

In short, they should play like we did last year, except instead of a perimeter-oriented offense they will be post-oriented.

Gorilla
12-01-2010, 02:34 PM
Latest rodney purvis tweet

"I hear UNC fan said I was trash due to
the fact that I had a stomach virus in that
game... Wow ! #thanks

oldnavy
12-01-2010, 02:34 PM
I know your opinion of Roy, and the last year or so seem to validate your view of him as a stubborn, clueless hick who only knows one way to operate. But the 20 or so years before that suggest otherwise -- that he does know how to get the most out of what he has. Perhaps he's gotten more stubborn with age, but I don't think he's completely lost it. I'm certainly rooting against it, but if someone forced me to bet I'd put my money on at least a minor turnaround for the Heels.

Well, I guess this will be the year that tells the tale. I hope you are wrong and not just because that would mean I was right if you know what I mean!!

quota
12-01-2010, 02:55 PM
You do realize that Clemson has never won in Chapel Hill, right? Just looking at the teams, I agree Clemson could win, in theory, but in practice Clemson won't, if history is any guide. But if Clemson does, expect mass hysteria in Chapel Hill. Klemnop, are you out there?

Yes, I'm well aware of the history of Clemson in Chapel Hill. But on paper and history aside, I think Clemson stands a good chance. Remember they have a new coach who's not saddled with the frustration of never having won in the Dean Dome.

DonnyDevil
12-01-2010, 03:01 PM
I noticed the look and body language at one point during UNC's loss last night when they panned to Harrison Barnes on the bench. He looked dazed and completely frustrated, which I guess makes sense with how their season is going especially after how he was labled the savior of the program. I wonder how often he thinks what if? and if thinks that on the bench during a loss? What if I had gone to Duke? What if....

The UNC fanbase has completely turned on this kid after his slow start which is ridiculous. I can only imagine he wishes he was in Kyrie's shoes at this point.

I also wonder now that he has played a true road game and struggled during it if he thinks the whole Skype thing was still a good idea. He will never hear the end of it on the road and playing poorly does not help his cause.

Gorilla
12-01-2010, 03:11 PM
Barnes just doesnt seem like a unc person, player or personality wise if you understand what im trying to say.

ajgoodfella7
12-01-2010, 03:17 PM
Barnes just doesnt seem like a unc person, player or personality wise if you understand what im trying to say.

He has a very weird aura about him when he's on the court. It's hard to explain. To me it almost appears like he is afraid to be embarrassed, so he just won't put himself in situations where that might happen. I don't know if anyone else see this or not, but it just seems like his play is so calculated, that he looks robotic on the court. Like he is too aware of the way he looks, and his posture. He is just very awkward looking to me.

timmy c
12-01-2010, 03:18 PM
...

I must admit, as I wrote my post I hesitated on the record prediction part...
--Jason "they have got to get some leadership" Evans

Mr. Evans, great thoughts, but Let me throw some more caution at your suggestion that 8-8 will get the Chapel Hill kids in the NCAAT.

The NCAA committee will not look closely at conference record. The big numbers for UNC will be top 50/100 wins.

UNC is currently 0-3 vs top 100. They have 17 games left against teams that will clearly finish in the top 100, plus at least one more game in the ACC tourney.

Just for argument sake let’s assume that UNC wins one against Kentucky or Texas. Top 100 record 1-4. Then they win 7 home games (all but Duke) and win 1 road game (UVA) giving them the suggested record of 8-8. 7 more top 100 wins (Sorry Wake :( ) top 100 record 8-12. Plus they win two ACC post season games for a top 100 record of 10-12.

Who on the committee is giving an at-large bid to a team with a top 100 record of 10-12? For comparison, Virginia Tech fell on the wrong side of the bubble last year with a top 100 record of 13-8.

OldPhiKap
12-01-2010, 03:26 PM
Mr. Evans, great thoughts, but Let me throw some more caution at your suggestion that 8-8 will get the Chapel Hill kids in the NCAAT.

The NCAA committee will not look closely at conference record. The big numbers for UNC will be top 50/100 wins.

UNC is currently 0-3 vs top 100. They have 17 games left against teams that will clearly finish in the top 100, plus at least one more game in the ACC tourney.

Just for argument sake let’s assume that UNC wins one against Kentucky or Texas. Top 100 record 1-4. Then they win 7 home games (all but Duke) and win 1 road game (UVA) giving them the suggested record of 8-8. 7 more top 100 wins (Sorry Wake :( ) top 100 record 8-12. Plus they win two ACC post season games for a top 100 record of 10-12.

Who on the committee is giving an at-large bid to a team with a top 100 record of 10-12? For comparison, Virginia Tech fell on the wrong side of the bubble last year with a top 100 record of 13-8.

Great analysis. But UNC is a big name and big draw, and I think they fall on the "right" side of the bubble unless forced out. VT is the opposite, for better or worse -- they have a greater burden to prove they belong.

I'm not saying the above is fair or right. It's not. But I think that's they way it is.

I hope you're right, and I'm wrong. Or, better yet, I hope they go 5-11 in the conference and are under .500 so the committee doesn't have a chance to save them.

PADukeMom
12-01-2010, 03:28 PM
Barnes just doesnt seem like a unc person, player or personality wise if you understand what im trying to say.

But then there will always be that Skype interview.
HB was annoited as the next Michael Jordan & those are huge Nike sneakers to fill. Is this kid the real deal; too early to tell. He was given All American status BEFORE he played 1 second of 1 game. They made him too big to fail which put the entire fate of the team on his shoulders. Now that he isn't quite preforming up to the hype, the fan support is fading & so is this kid's confidence.
Kyrie is a freshman & doing just fine but there is a definate leader for him to rely on. I know, not making much sense but it is a rainy Wednesday afternoon of a big game.

sagegrouse
12-01-2010, 03:29 PM
Great analysis. But UNC is a big name and big draw, and I think they fall on the "right" side of the bubble unless forced out. VT is the opposite, for better or worse -- they have a greater burden to prove they belong.

I'm not saying the above is fair or right. It's not. But I think that's they way it is.

I am agreeing with you, and the other factor is that the NCAA Tournament Selection Committee wants to deprive the NIT of its primary draw -- the Tarheels.

sagegrouse
'Even though the NCAA now owns the NIT, old habits die hard'

superdave
12-01-2010, 03:29 PM
I know your opinion of Roy, and the last year or so seem to validate your view of him as a stubborn, clueless hick who only knows one way to operate. But the 20 or so years before that suggest otherwise -- that he does know how to get the most out of what he has. Perhaps he's gotten more stubborn with age, but I don't think he's completely lost it. I'm certainly rooting against it, but if someone forced me to bet I'd put my money on at least a minor turnaround for the Heels.

I think Roy has a "When things go wrong and I get mad" checklist on the wall in his office.
1- Run it out of them. (To be used early on, but more sparingly as season progresses)
2- Emphasize pushing the ball and shooting before the D gets set. (shots up within 10 seconds, guys!)
3- Make them practice without rims on the goals. (I'm serious guys, no rims is Defcon 3 annoyed)
4- Kick them out of practice early. (I'm super-serious guys, go home and think about that because we're at Defcon 2)
5- Invoke Carolina's history and suggest they are way down the totem pole. (Coach Smith used to tell me that players would let me down, and you guys are in Defcon 1 as far as letting me down!)

I just think Roy has a system and he knows how to implement it, but not adapt and adjust it. When things go wrong, he's a 5 trick pony and those 5 tricks are listed above. #5 is where he spent most last season and included invoking Dean and throwing kids under the bus.

Super "There's no subtelty to the guy - he wears it all on his sleeve" Dave

superdave
12-01-2010, 03:35 PM
I disagree with this part in that Roy should not give HB the ball to initiate the offense; that's what he's kinda doing already with HB on the perimeter.

Instead Roy should use HB the way we use Singler. A little motion to get HB cuts that allow him to shoot over smaller opponents nearer the basket. Screens to catch and shoot from 3-pt range. Post up against smaller opponents (which he did nicely for his and one against Illinois in the beginning). Set picks and either pop/roll. Crash the glass for putbacks. The truth is HB is a mismatch at either the 3 or 4, and he should be used to maximize those mismatches. Asking him to create from the perimeter without any motion, screens, picks, or anything really...is not it.

I wrote this in the Challenge thread, but I think the formula for UNC is very straightforward:

- 3 key pieces: Zeller, Henson and Barnes. These three should aim to contribute 50-60 points every game

- Consequently, offense should start inside-out

- Slow pace with an emphasis on a half-court game; fewer possessions will also help their thin frontcourt

- Extreme focus on rebounding which they can do very well with those three

- Defense, defense and defense -- similar to us last year, they are tall at every position and should be able to bother a lot of teams with their length. Maybe even a zone

- Rotate shooters at the 1 and 2; the PG needs to do a Scheyer in that he doesn't have to penetrate, he just needs to bring the ball up without turning it over and make open jump shots.
In short, they should play like we did last year, except instead of a perimeter-oriented offense they will be post-oriented.

This is good analysis, Ice-9. The way I see it, UNC wants to run and either score in transition or on the secondary break. Shoot, that's ideal basketball right there. But what happens in the half-court?

That's where these guys break down. They set crisp screens and work pretty hard, but it's predictible. Either the D has to fall asleep or someone has to make a play. These pg's are not going to make those plays often enough and the offense is too predictible to put a whole lot of pressure on the D. So the D is at an advantage.

They should have at least 2-3 plays drawn up for Barnes along with 2-3 to get good looks at 3s, and they should have 2-3 sets they run where the guys can read and react to the D. Or they should just play inside out and shoot free throws all night. But the offense really does not seem to put pressure on other teams.

uh_no
12-01-2010, 03:40 PM
Virginia Tech fell on the wrong side of the bubble last year with a top 100 record of 13-8.

that's just because the committee loves to torture seth greenberg

noyac
12-01-2010, 03:42 PM
I think Roy has a "When things go wrong and I get mad" checklist on the wall in his office.
1- Run it out of them. (To be used early on, but more sparingly as season progresses)
2- Emphasize pushing the ball and shooting before the D gets set. (shots up within 10 seconds, guys!)
3- Make them practice without rims on the goals. (I'm serious guys, no rims is Defcon 3 annoyed)
4- Kick them out of practice early. (I'm super-serious guys, go home and think about that because we're at Defcon 2)
5- Invoke Carolina's history and suggest they are way down the totem pole. (Coach Smith used to tell me that players would let me down, and you guys are in Defcon 1 as far as letting me down!)

I just think Roy has a system and he knows how to implement it, but not adapt and adjust it. When things go wrong, he's a 5 trick pony and those 5 tricks are listed above. #5 is where he spent most last season and included invoking Dean and throwing kids under the bus.

Super "There's no subtelty to the guy - he wears it all on his sleeve" Dave

I enjoyed your post but you forgot one:

Blame the players for everything that goes wrong.

camion
12-01-2010, 03:45 PM
I like Ice-9's prescription and I think it would help things. There is one big problem however. To do it Roy would have to copy what coach K did last year and...


Roy Williams would rather die than Dukeify!!

OldPhiKap
12-01-2010, 03:54 PM
I am agreeing with you, and the other factor is that the NCAA Tournament Selection Committee wants to deprive the NIT of its primary draw -- the Tarheels.

sagegrouse
'Even though the NCAA now owns the NIT, old habits die hard'

Then again, they DO need some big names for games on Tuesday nights in March . . . .


;>)

superdave
12-01-2010, 03:57 PM
I enjoyed your post but you forgot one:

Blame the players for everything that goes wrong.

I think Blame the Players fits nicely into "Here's how great our players were back in the 1970s, and you guys dont measure up because you're not doing what I say" or #5.

timmy c
12-01-2010, 04:19 PM
Great analysis. But UNC is a big name and big draw, and I think they fall on the "right" side of the bubble unless forced out. VT is the opposite, for better or worse -- they have a greater burden to prove they belong.

I'm not saying the above is fair or right. It's not. But I think that's they way it is.

I hope you're right, and I'm wrong. Or, better yet, I hope they go 5-11 in the conference and are under .500 so the committee doesn't have a chance to save them.


I am agreeing with you, and the other factor is that the NCAA Tournament Selection Committee wants to deprive the NIT of its primary draw -- the Tarheels.

sagegrouse
'Even though the NCAA now owns the NIT, old habits die hard'

Guys I agree; UNC gets into the 2010 NCAAT with Techs resume. However, I doubt they get as much friendly bias this year. They don't have to get to 13 top 100 wins but I would set minimum at 11 wins.

Acymetric
12-01-2010, 04:28 PM
They've been saying that for 84 years. Ain't happened yet. Pigs will fly when it does.

--Jason "http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:Sxs-xVXbe51amM:http://www.platowa.com/images/flying_pig.gif&t=1" Evans

Well whenever it happens I'll be there (watching on tv) celebrating the historic win with some flying BBQ! ;)

JasonEvans
12-01-2010, 04:53 PM
3- Make them practice without rims on the goals. (I'm serious guys, no rims is Defcon 3 annoyed)

No rims? Are you saying there would be backboards with no goals on them?

Like this ---> http://images.craigslist.org/3me3p73la5O65Y65T3a8pf7731ba3d90812ad.jpg

I am not even sure how a practice like that would work. I can bet that Reggie Bulloch would not enjoy it. He's all about the shooting.

--Jason "side note-- one thing to remember when talking about Top 100 wins and teams making the dance, there are 3 extra bubble teams getting in this year" Evans

SupaDave
12-01-2010, 04:56 PM
He has a very weird aura about him when he's on the court. It's hard to explain. To me it almost appears like he is afraid to be embarrassed, so he just won't put himself in situations where that might happen. I don't know if anyone else see this or not, but it just seems like his play is so calculated, that he looks robotic on the court. Like he is too aware of the way he looks, and his posture. He is just very awkward looking to me.

Well that's something I've actually been watching closely with Barnes and I'd like to point out a couple things from last night that really stuck out to me.

It was posted that he was 2-9 last night, well one of those was EXCELLENT position under the goal against a smaller player and the other was a WIDE OPEN three. Otherwise he jacked up a few ill advised threes and some shots he appeared timid on (unlike the Illinois player, Davis, who was wide open at the three - saw noone under the rim - then proceeded to take it from the 3pt line and dunk - just HORRIBLE defense. Davis had what seemed like 10 minutes to make the decision as well).

Defensively, the whole team is dogging it but mostly they aren't in synch.

First the play that said it all: Illinois was in transition with their high percentage 3pt shooting point guard running the break - who you've just got to know by this point in the game LOVES to shoot threes - and the UNC players all run to their spots on their floor. Barnes runs right PAST him - so what does he do? 3pt Swish!!!!

And then it hit me, it's the thing that K preaches most outside of leadership and hard work, these guys have NO communication. Geez!! Someone has got to speak up and say "I GOT BALL!!!" Something! These guys are not novice basketball players. I put it all on Roy at this point.

I could coach UNC to 20 wins this year just by letting them play. Henson would be excellent for the pick and roll as shifty as he is and Zeller could be a backdoor maniac. Why can't he use BARNES to run those two plays? Put the ball in the kid's hands and let him get comfortable with the ball.

But they've got to start speaking to each other on the court. They need that more than they need a leader. It's not Henson either - last night while celebrating a basket Illinois blew right by him and got those two points back. Noone said a word...

Eternal Outlaw
12-01-2010, 05:00 PM
No rims? Are you saying there would be backboards with no goals on them?

Like this ---> http://images.craigslist.org/3me3p73la5O65Y65T3a8pf7731ba3d90812ad.jpg

I am not even sure how a practice like that would work. I can bet that Reggie Bulloch would not enjoy it. He's all about the shooting.

--Jason "side note-- one thing to remember when talking about Top 100 wins and teams making the dance, there are 3 extra bubble teams getting in this year" Evans

The funniest thing is announcers like Vitale have praised the technique on TV before saying it helps them practice defense. I can not fathom how this improves defense since kids are taught to get into triple threat position and this tactic means the defense no longer needs to defend against one of those threats. Of course the defense is going to look better since they can worry about just defending the pass and dribble now that shooting is now out of the equation.

OldPhiKap
12-01-2010, 05:03 PM
For those with a sense of adventure, and humor, I commend the "Rodney Purvis seems agitated.... " thread on IC. Talk about gallow's humor.

superdave
12-01-2010, 05:05 PM
No rims? Are you saying there would be backboards with no goals on them?

I am not even sure how a practice like that would work. I can bet that Reggie Bulloch would not enjoy it. He's all about the shooting.

--Jason "side note-- one thing to remember when talking about Top 100 wins and teams making the dance, there are 3 extra bubble teams getting in this year" Evans

Yep
No (http://northcarolina.scout.com/2/719278.html)
Rims (http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/110504aaa.html)

mkirsh
12-01-2010, 05:08 PM
No rims? Are you saying there would be backboards with no goals on them?

Like this ---> http://images.craigslist.org/3me3p73la5O65Y65T3a8pf7731ba3d90812ad.jpg

I am not even sure how a practice like that would work. I can bet that Reggie Bulloch would not enjoy it. He's all about the shooting.

--Jason "side note-- one thing to remember when talking about Top 100 wins and teams making the dance, there are 3 extra bubble teams getting in this year" Evans

yes, exactly like that. Coach Williams likes to have the maintenance guys actually take the rims off the backboards so that when the players walk into practice they know they will be doing nothing but defensive sets, slides, and conditioning. Usually does this in pre-season practices. Probably not the best idea for a team that shoots 46% from the floor and 61% from the line.

SMO
12-01-2010, 05:40 PM
The UNC fanbase has completely turned on this kid after his slow start which is ridiculous.

Is this based on what you're reading on IC or elsewhere? I find it hard to believe but if it's true it is both sad and somewhat exhilerating.

MChambers
12-01-2010, 05:49 PM
Henson would be excellent for the pick and roll as shifty as he is and Zeller could be a backdoor maniac.
I liked your post overall, but this point got me, as I have a hard time imagining John Henson setting an effective pick. He just doesn't take up enough space.

quota
12-01-2010, 05:52 PM
Well that's something I've actually been watching closely with Barnes and I'd like to point out a couple things from last night that really stuck out to me.

It was posted that he was 2-9 last night, well one of those was EXCELLENT position under the goal against a smaller player and the other was a WIDE OPEN three. Otherwise he jacked up a few ill advised threes and some shots he appeared timid on (unlike the Illinois player, Davis, who was wide open at the three - saw noone under the rim - then proceeded to take it from the 3pt line and dunk - just HORRIBLE defense. Davis had what seemed like 10 minutes to make the decision as well).

Defensively, the whole team is dogging it but mostly they aren't in synch.

First the play that said it all: Illinois was in transition with their high percentage 3pt shooting point guard running the break - who you've just got to know by this point in the game LOVES to shoot threes - and the UNC players all run to their spots on their floor. Barnes runs right PAST him - so what does he do? 3pt Swish!!!!

And then it hit me, it's the thing that K preaches most outside of leadership and hard work, these guys have NO communication. Geez!! Someone has got to speak up and say "I GOT BALL!!!" Something! These guys are not novice basketball players. I put it all on Roy at this point.

I could coach UNC to 20 wins this year just by letting them play. Henson would be excellent for the pick and roll as shifty as he is and Zeller could be a backdoor maniac. Why can't he use BARNES to run those two plays? Put the ball in the kid's hands and let him get comfortable with the ball.

But they've got to start speaking to each other on the court. They need that more than they need a leader. It's not Henson either - last night while celebrating a basket Illinois blew right by him and got those two points back. Noone said a word...

Great post. One thing I will add is that I've noticed that Barnes really struggles at taking his man off the dribble. Surprising...

dball
12-01-2010, 05:55 PM
I liked your post overall, but this point got me, as I have a hard time imagining John Henson setting an effective pick. He just doesn't take up enough space.

toothpick and roll?

JasonEvans
12-01-2010, 06:16 PM
Yahoo jumps all over Roy Williams (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/It-s-hypocritical-of-Roy-Williams-to-criticize-E?urn=ncaab-290794#remaining-content)for criticizing the critics of Harrison Barnes.


It's certainly true that early hype can put undue pressure on a top prospect and expose him to backlash when he struggles, but ESPN is hardly the lone culprit in the case of Barnes. In fact, Williams is as much to blame as any media outlet for building up the legend of Harrison Barnes before he played his first college game.

--Jason "take that, Roy!" Evans

77devil
12-01-2010, 06:19 PM
Yahoo jumps all over Roy Williams (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/It-s-hypocritical-of-Roy-Williams-to-criticize-E?urn=ncaab-290794#remaining-content)for criticizing the critics of Harrison Barnes.



--Jason "take that, Roy!" Evans

So did the PTI guys. Loved it when Tony accented the Ol' in Ol' Roy and said maybe people should start looking at the coach who, after all, selected the players.

Good stuff. Worth the price of admission.

oldnavy
12-01-2010, 06:49 PM
I noticed the look and body language at one point during UNC's loss last night when they panned to Harrison Barnes on the bench. He looked dazed and completely frustrated, which I guess makes sense with how their season is going especially after how he was labled the savior of the program. I wonder how often he thinks what if? and if thinks that on the bench during a loss? What if I had gone to Duke? What if....

The UNC fanbase has completely turned on this kid after his slow start which is ridiculous. I can only imagine he wishes he was in Kyrie's shoes at this point.

I also wonder now that he has played a true road game and struggled during it if he thinks the whole Skype thing was still a good idea. He will never hear the end of it on the road and playing poorly does not help his cause.

Actually I think he probably wishes he had stayed home and went to Iowa State. He would have the same issues at Duke, but at Iowa State, he would have time to develop and not be in the spot light like he is at UNC or would be at Duke. Plus he would be at home and that would help as well.

ajgoodfella7
12-01-2010, 06:58 PM
Actually I think he probably wishes he had stayed home and went to Iowa State. He would have the same issues at Duke, but at Iowa State, he would have time to develop and not be in the spot light like he is at UNC or would be at Duke. Plus he would be at home and that would help as well.

I think Duke would have been a much better situation for him. He would have significantly less pressure to perform on a team with Singler, Smith and Irving. Yes there would still be a significant spotlight on him, but he was expected to be the savior at UNC, at Duke he would just be expected to be a contributing freshman. But that doesn't really matter now. I couldn't be happier with how this team is constructed.

wilson
12-01-2010, 07:07 PM
I think Duke would have been a much better situation for him. He would have significantly less pressure to perform on a team with Singler, Smith and Irving. Yes there would still be a significant spotlight on him, but he was expected to be the savior at UNC, at Duke he would just be expected to be a contributing freshman. But that doesn't really matter now. I couldn't be happier with how this team is constructed.This is why I think he didn't come to Duke in the first place. I think he took a gander at the potential roster and realized he'd be a cog in a machine, rather than "That Dude" (especially when you consider K's team-oriented strategic reputation and the two-headed senior monster of Kylan Smingler). I highly doubt if this season spent in a Duke uni would have brought about a one-and-done result for HB (at least not ending as a lottery pick). I'm not saying there's anything wrong with him not being one-and-done; rather clearly, he might well need the extra seasoning anyway. If he had his druthers, though, I don't think that's what he'd go for.

Mike Corey
12-01-2010, 07:12 PM
Yahoo jumps all over Roy Williams (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/It-s-hypocritical-of-Roy-Williams-to-criticize-E?urn=ncaab-290794#remaining-content)for criticizing the critics of Harrison Barnes.



--Jason "take that, Roy!" Evans

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk139/PolicyInPractice/royalone.jpg

(In case you don't get the reference: Linky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc). Please beware inappropriate language and excessive whining.)

ajgoodfella7
12-01-2010, 07:13 PM
This is why I think he didn't come to Duke in the first place. I think he took a gander at the potential roster and realized he'd be a cog in a machine, rather than "That Dude" (especially when you consider K's team-oriented strategic reputation and the two-headed senior monster of Kylan Smingler). I highly doubt if this season spent in a Duke uni would have brought about a one-and-done result for HB (at least not ending as a lottery pick). I'm not saying there's anything wrong with him not being one-and-done; rather clearly, he might well need the extra seasoning anyway. If he had his druthers, though, I don't think that's what he'd go for.

I agree with you that was his thought process. But I think for his overall progress as a freshman player, he would have been much better off at Duke this year then at UNC.

lotusland
12-01-2010, 07:37 PM
This is why I think he didn't come to Duke in the first place. I think he took a gander at the potential roster and realized he'd be a cog in a machine, rather than "That Dude" (especially when you consider K's team-oriented strategic reputation and the two-headed senior monster of Kylan Smingler). I highly doubt if this season spent in a Duke uni would have brought about a one-and-done result for HB (at least not ending as a lottery pick). I'm not saying there's anything wrong with him not being one-and-done; rather clearly, he might well need the extra seasoning anyway. If he had his druthers, though, I don't think that's what he'd go for.

It was generally considered that Kyle would declare for the draft when Barnes committed and the Heels were riding high coming off their NC. Also NBA draft position seems to place more value on potential than accomplishment. There are numerous examples of one and done players who weren't the focal point of the team their Freshman year. Deng, Maggette and Marvin Williams come to mind. For whatever reason HB decided UNC was where he wanted to go. He might decide differently if had it over though.

oldnavy
12-01-2010, 07:37 PM
I agree with you that was his thought process. But I think for his overall progress as a freshman player, he would have been much better off at Duke this year then at UNC.

Not saying that he wouldn't have been better off at Duke in the long run, but the question I addressed is where do you think HB wishes he went now, not where he would be better off. I just think that if he is having second thoughts and I doubt really that he is, he would rather be back home with family and friends rather than at Duke.

lotusland
12-01-2010, 07:42 PM
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk139/PolicyInPractice/royalone.jpg

(In case you don't get the reference: Linky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc). Please beware inappropriate language and excessive whining.)

Man I would love to have the whole bit re-done with Roy melting down about HB instead of Britney. That would be absolutely hilarious!

roywhite
12-01-2010, 07:53 PM
Man I would love to have the whole bit re-done with Roy melting down about HB instead of Britney. That would be absolutely hilarious!

With the clip, we saw the notation
"Please beware inappropriate language and excessive whining"

Ole Roy could certainly provide that!

ajgoodfella7
12-01-2010, 08:05 PM
Not saying that he wouldn't have been better off at Duke in the long run, but the question I addressed is where do you think HB wishes he went now, not where he would be better off. I just think that if he is having second thoughts and I doubt really that he is, he would rather be back home with family and friends rather than at Duke.

Well I'm sure a little adversity isn't making him regret his decision to go to UNC. At least I'm sure UNC hopes. I thought you meant would he have been better off from my point of view.

I'm sure he will get better eventually though. But I never thought of him as a Kobe type player as some in the media would have you believe. In fact, I compared him to Luol Deng about 2 months ago, but as of NOW, I think that would be a disservice to Luol's freshman season.

lotusland
12-02-2010, 08:09 AM
This thread is fun:

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=78&f=1410&t=6815179&p=1

For some reason these posts made me laugh the most:

I think Rat is messing up. He needs to sub every 2 minutes and get Irving out when he goes on one of those runs.

They were right about a freshman making the All-America team this year...

One does gain perspective from IC. They are much more impressed with Duke's performance the we are. ;)

JasonEvans
12-02-2010, 09:01 AM
This thread is fun:

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=78&f=1410&t=6815179&p=1

For some reason these posts made me laugh the most:

I think Rat is messing up. He needs to sub every 2 minutes and get Irving out when he goes on one of those runs.

They were right about a freshman making the All-America team this year...

One does gain perspective from IC. They are much more impressed with Duke's performance the we are. ;)

It actually is interesting to read what other fans think of us. Granted, the IC board is full of venom at times, but it is telling to see how much they admire our passion. Here are a few interesting comments...


Love how Irving got in the huddle during a foul and fired the players up. You don't see any of that happen during a Tarheel game.

It's so painful watching how well coached duke is. Look how hard the kids play...ugh. Wonder if I'll ever see a UNC team play that hard ever again.

They never let up on a single play, never. When I look at this team, I realize how completely inferior the current UNC team is. We would lose by 40 to them.

Did you see that last fast break ran by Irving and the dish? Man we are freaking light years behind these guys right now.

I predict that duke's backcourt will have more points than UNC at cameron.

It's sad to think that we've probably lost more games now than Duke will all season.

Honestly the match up with them this year looks nearly un-winnable at this point. Their strengths align very well with our weaknesses. We aren't well equipped to stop their penetration or three point shooting, and on the other end their pressure will undoubtedly generate a ton of TO's.



--Jason "the few folks who criticize Duke got pretty quickly shot down - the folks in that thread know good basketball and admire it" Evans

devildeac
12-02-2010, 09:09 AM
Aw, what the heck, I'll just blame the 'holes for losing the challenge for us this year. Why not?


Tweet!

15 point, err, yard reputation penalty for unsportmanslike conduct/piling on. ;):rolleyes:

SupaDave
12-02-2010, 09:17 AM
Great post. One thing I will add is that I've noticed that Barnes really struggles at taking his man off the dribble. Surprising...

Oh yes - I noticed this and so did the announcers. Barnes hardly EVER goes to his left. That dirty little secret has been exposed.

Guess that effortless look was all about the level of play (and summer basketball) and now it just looks like lack of effort.

Ok - so me and my buddies are talking trash last night and we stumbled upon an interesting parallel. Brace for it...

...So is Harrison Barnes the NEW Lance Thomas? Just think about that for a second - and if need be - I'll flesh out some of the parallels (disregarding the unexpected leadership Lance brought as a freshmen). It's not as much of a stretch as you might think...

arnie
12-02-2010, 09:44 AM
Oh yes - I noticed this and so did the announcers. Barnes hardly EVER goes to his left. That dirty little secret has been exposed.

Guess that effortless look was all about the level of play (and summer basketball) and now it just looks like lack of effort.

Ok - so me and my buddies are talking trash last night and we stumbled upon an interesting parallel. Brace for it...

...So is Harrison Barnes the NEW Lance Thomas? Just think about that for a second - and if need be - I'll flesh out some of the parallels (disregarding the unexpected leadership Lance brought as a freshmen). It's not as much of a stretch as you might think...

That comparison is hysterical - I hate I didn't think of it. Course HB will really have to focus on defense to make it come true.

SupaDave
12-02-2010, 09:58 AM
It actually is interesting to read what other fans think of us. Granted, the IC board is full of venom at times, but it is telling to see how much they admire our passion. Here are a few interesting comments...



--Jason "the few folks who criticize Duke got pretty quickly shot down - the folks in that thread know good basketball and admire it" Evans

Ok I bit Jason...

And this one is just hilarious...


I dont know. maybe Irving showing up in our huddle might fire us up

---------------------------------------------
--- TYSHOW wrote:

Love how Irving got in the huddle during a foul and fired the players up. You don't see any of that happen during a Tarheel game

Starter
12-02-2010, 11:31 AM
Man I would love to have the whole bit re-done with Roy melting down about HB instead of Britney. That would be absolutely hilarious!

Give it a few weeks.

Kedsy
12-02-2010, 12:51 PM
Ok - so me and my buddies are talking trash last night and we stumbled upon an interesting parallel. Brace for it...

...So is Harrison Barnes the NEW Lance Thomas? Just think about that for a second - and if need be - I'll flesh out some of the parallels (disregarding the unexpected leadership Lance brought as a freshmen). It's not as much of a stretch as you might think...

OK, this is funny. But if you want to be serious about it, Lance was the #20 recruit in the country (according to RSCI) and Barnes was #1. Flesh out all the details you want (I'd be interested to hear them), but that difference alone makes the comparison a huuuuuuge stretch.

Class of '94
12-02-2010, 12:56 PM
Kong mentioned this in an earlier post; but I wanted to get feedback on this: Am I offbase in saying that I think Strickland's skills are terrible for a guy that was a highly rated recruit coming out of HS?

I have to admit that I'm personally biased against Strickland based off his negative comments about Duke and the supposed "lack" of freedom in Duke's system; but saying that, I look at Strickland and all I see is a guy that takes bad shots and needs to slow himself down a notch or two when he plays. And while I don't like Bullock that much either, I think he needs to start over Strickland. I'm wondering if Roy ia afraid of losing guys on the team like Drew Strickland and McDonald if he starts all 3 freshment on teh perimeter. As a poster noted earlier, I think that would give UNC the best chance for success.

kong123
12-02-2010, 01:29 PM
I am wondering if Roy is trying to buy a bit of time for the freshmen to adjust to college ball and also give Drew and Strickland time to prove themselves. This is the only reason I can imagine that Roy isn't playing the freshmen more. Even if the freshmen create mistakes on defense, their ability to score should override that, or at least help overall. With no other scorers in our backcourt, it will always put tremendous pressure on HB to create his own shots. If Drew cannot distribute or create and Strickland can only score on the break, having playmakers willing and able to create for themselves and for others is vital. Maybe Roy is buying a little time before he hands over the keys to the freshmen. Too much pressure on these kids may lead to additional stagnant starts like it did for HB.

Boy, KI looked great last night. He puts pressure on defenses the way Lawson did his Junior year. Wish he was a Heel, but I will settle for him being a one-and-doner.

Duke84
12-02-2010, 01:32 PM
New slogan:

"UNC - The Freedom To Underachieve"

Cockabeau
12-02-2010, 02:08 PM
I am wondering if Roy is trying to buy a bit of time for the freshmen to adjust to college ball and also give Drew and Strickland time to prove themselves.

I don't think it is a question of adjustment for the freshmen.

Barnes has been exposed as a total fraud in the basketball department.
Kendall Marshall is way too slow to make a huge difference consistently unless you play Hofstra and UNCG every game.
Reggie Bullock has a bum knee
All freshmen need leadership at some level on the court. Who at UNC fills that role?exactly.

Channing
12-02-2010, 02:18 PM
I don't think it is a question of adjustment for the freshmen.

Barnes has been exposed as a total fraud in the basketball department.
Kendall Marshall is way too slow to make a huge difference consistently unless you play Hofstra and UNCG every game.
Reggie Bullock has a bum knee
All freshmen need leadership at some level on the court. Who at UNC fills that role?exactly.

(1) a fraud? seriously? he has played 7 or 8 games. He may not be an all american, but I bet every single coach out there would take him in a heartbeat (except for K - you only get one bite at the Duke apple). thats no fraud.

(2) try telling that to Jon Scheyer.

I think the fact of the matter is they are freshmen and their supporting cast is just not very good. I hate UNC just as much as the next Duke fan, but to downplay the talent they have is silly. If their coach adjusted his style to his players they would be pretty darn good, I think.

ncexnyc
12-02-2010, 02:21 PM
(1) a fraud? seriously? he has played 7 or 8 games. He may not be an all american, but I bet every single coach out there would take him in a heartbeat (except for K - you only get one bite at the Duke apple). thats no fraud.

(2) try telling that to Jon Scheyer.

I think the fact of the matter is they are freshmen and their supporting cast is just not very good. I hate UNC just as much as the next Duke fan, but to downplay the talent they have is silly. If their coach adjusted his style to his players they would be pretty darn good, I think.

Thank you for saving me from having to reply to that absolutely absurb post.

DukieInKansas
12-02-2010, 02:33 PM
I feel bad for HB. I think he came in with so much hype and such high expectations that it would be hard for anyone to live up to the advance press. Most freshman, whether in sports or academics, suffer when they move from being a big fish in a small pond to being a small fish in a big pond. It takes a while for them to find their legs. I suspect that HB will successfully make the adjustment - I hope, however, that he reverts to the current form anytime the tar heels play Duke. :D

Gthoma2a
12-02-2010, 03:03 PM
I want Harrison to fail so badly that he has to transfer to Iowa State just due to the embarassment of his failure at UNC. I say this because he made his bed, and he needs to lie in it. He has hyped himself up to a ridiculous level, and he did it before he even played a game. He had a nickname for himself. He had the ridiculous decision. He had all of this ridiculous stuff, so honestly, I want him to fail. I don't wish as much towards any other player who chose UNC over us, so I don't think it is just due to the rivalry... he just annoys me. It makes it worse that despite him playing terribly, people are still kissing his butt. The denial of his ineptitude, and even overrated stature is getting me more against him. Vitale saying "he is still going to be such a special player" sickens me... Maybe it is just me, but I wouldn't mind him just completely failing.

moonpie23
12-02-2010, 03:10 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arv-P1UyCyQ



in this video, HWNSNBM actually comes across as a nice kid, but listen closely to his statements to kyrie about the UNC program "closing the gap" on K. He clearly regurgitates roy's spiel......


this whole thing seems so funny now......he may turn out to be a great player, but it better be soon...

Bob Green
12-02-2010, 04:56 PM
Carolina discussion is now taking place here (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?23314-A-Chapel-Hill-Christmas).