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timmy c
11-30-2010, 02:31 PM
Just saw a tweet asking who is the better backcourt:
Williams/Duhon or Irving/Smith

It is way to early to take this debate seriously, but it's fun to think about. What are your thoughts?

jimsumner
11-30-2010, 02:47 PM
Just saw a tweet asking who is the better backcourt:
Williams/Duhon or Irving/Smith

It is way to early to take this debate seriously, but it's fun to think about. What are your thoughts?

Why limit to these two? Some prefer Dawkins and Amaker.

For reference sake, the backcourts during the K era which had two players make All-ACC the same year are

1991 Bobby Hurley (3rd team) and Thomas Hill (3rd team)
1992 Hurley (2) and THill (3)
1993 Hurley (1) and THill (3)
1996 Chris Collins (2) and Jeff Capel (3)
1997 Trajan Langdon (1) and Steve Wojciekowski (2)
1998 Langdon (1) and Wojo (3)
1999 Langdon (1) and Will Avery (2)
2001 Jason Williams (1) and Nate James (3)
2003 Chris Duhon (3) and J.J. Redick (3), if we consider Redick a guard.
2004 Duhon (1) and Redick (2), same proviso
2005 Redick (1) and Dan Ewing (3), same proviso
2008 DeMarcus Nelson (1) and Greg Paulus (3). Was Nelson a guard?
2010 Scheyer (1) and Smith (2)

Note that Dawkins and Amaker and Williams and Duhon never made All-ACC the same season.

Duke has never had two guards make 1st-team All-ACC the same year, although Avery just barely missed in 1999. Duke had a one and a two in 1997, 2004 and 2010.

Suggest serious consideration be given to Langdon and Avery in 1999. I think that's the benchmark for Smith and Irving.

That's if we're talking one year.

superdave
11-30-2010, 03:08 PM
Why limit to these two? Some prefer Dawkins and Amaker.

For reference sake, the backcourts during the K era which had two players make All-ACC the same year are

1991 Bobby Hurley (3rd team) and Thomas Hill (3rd team)
1992 Hurley (2) and THill (3)
1993 Hurley (1) and THill (3)
1996 Chris Collins (2) and Jeff Capel (3)
1997 Trajan Langdon (1) and Steve Wojciekowski (2)
1998 Langdon (1) and Wojo (3)
1999 Langdon (1) and Will Avery (2)
2001 Jason Williams (1) and Nate James (3)
2003 Chris Duhon (3) and J.J. Redick (3), if we consider Redick a guard.
2004 Duhon (1) and Redick (2), same proviso
2005 Redick (1) and Dan Ewing (3), same proviso
2008 DeMarcus Nelson (1) and Greg Paulus (3). Was Nelson a guard?
2010 Scheyer (1) and Smith (2)

Note that Dawkins and Amaker and Williams and Duhon never made All-ACC the same season.

Duke has never had two guards make 1st-team All-ACC the same year, although Avery just barely missed in 1999. Duke had a one and a two in 1997, 2004 and 2010.

Suggest serious consideration be given to Langdon and Avery in 1999. I think that's the benchmark for Smith and Irving.

That's if we're talking one year.

Great info, Jim. Thanks.

Off that list, I'd say Johnny Dawkins and Jason Williams were the only two "unguardable" players, so I give those guys a bit of an edge. I do think Kyrie will get there by February, a season earlier than Jason Williams did. (Didn't Coach K say earlier this year that Williams did not play pg until he arrived in Durham?)

Also, I care more about post-season success than I do about All-ACC teams so Dawkins-Amaker in '86, Langdon-Avery in '99, Hurley-Hill in '91 & '92, Williams-Duhon in '01, Duhon-Redick in '04 and Scheyer-Smith last year get credit for going to a Final Four (or better). I have a hard time throwing Nate James into the backcourt conversation as well.

So I'd go with the following if we're looking at Duke historically with an emphasis on the post-season.
1. Dawkins-Amaker '86
2. Williams-Duhon '01
3. Hurley-Hill '92
4. Langdon-Avery '99
5. Scheyer-Smith '10
6. Duhon-Redick '04

But if we had a 2 on 2 tournament out of all the combinations, I'd think Williams-Duhon '02 would meet Irving-Smith '11 in the finals.

tele
11-30-2010, 03:46 PM
That is quite a list isn't it? I agree it is easy to overlook how good the Langdon and Avery combination was. If you look at how well the two complement each other, and not just scoring totals, then Dawkins-Amaker have to be considered too.

Here is a Featherston look from last year more from scoring perspective: http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=204879246

I would say "Best Ever Backcourt" would be saying a lot given this list. So far, this years backcourt has room to improve on total assists, and assist to turnover ratio.

SilkyJ
11-30-2010, 04:55 PM
I would say "Best Ever Backcourt" would be saying a lot given this list. So far, this years backcourt has room to improve on total assists, and assist to turnover ratio.

Really? Smith and Irving are each averaging 5.8 ast/game. Someone else will have to crunch the numbers, but I'd bet rarely do two guards in college each average more than 5apg.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/150/duke-blue-devils

Agree on A/TO ratio, where nolan in particular can improve.

Stat no one is noticing, imo? Smith and Irving are combining for 9 rebounds/game so far.

I'm super busy at work, but if someone can get around to it, it'd be nice to get an update on the Singler/Smith chase for the record book threads. IMO, we're so deep this year that those guys scoring averages may not take the jump many expected b/c there are too many shots to go around. I think most of us thought the up-tempo pace would more than compensate for that, but so far Kyle and Nolan are averaging only 12.5 shots per game while playing 30mpg. Those MPG may jump a little, but probably not much considering how much we're running, so I don't see them averaging more than 13-14 shots per game, which is what they averaged last year.

The result of that may be 1) they may not attain some of the records we thought/hoped for; and 2) individual accolades may be a little harder to come by, since the media can be very stats centric. I think everyone (the players, coaches and fans) are fine with that since we are more concerned with team accolades, but its still worth noting.

tylervinyard
11-30-2010, 05:27 PM
(Didn't Coach K say earlier this year that Williams did not play pg until he arrived in Durham?)

Not sure if you meant Irving did not play pg until he arrived in Durham, so if not, I wanted to point out that apparently Kyrie didn't play much point guard during high school either.

jimsumner
11-30-2010, 06:20 PM
Not sure if you meant Irving did not play pg until he arrived in Durham, so if not, I wanted to point out that apparently Kyrie didn't play much point guard during high school either.

I believe Irving was a PG in high school. Very much so, in fact.

Nate James may not seem like a prototypical wing guard and he certainly wasn't when he arrived at Duke. But in 2001, the default starting lineup was Carlos Boozer at center, Shane Battier and Mike Dunleavy at forward, James at the 2 and Jason Williams at the point.

Duhon played lots off the bench, sometimes instead of JWill, sometimes alongside him. But he didn't start until Boozer broke a foot and that was at the end of the regular season. James wasn't much of an assist guy but neither was Thomas Hill. Like Hill, James became a real threat from outside. He made 46 threes in 2000, 43 in 2001, the only years he started.

So far, we've confined this to the K era. But if we want to float back a little earlier, we could do worse than Tate Armstrong and Jim Spanarkel. Before Armstrong broke his shooting wrist at the mid-point of the '77 season, the duo was averaging around 44 ppg. Not too shabby.

From the Bubas era, let me suggest Bob Verga and Steve Vacendak from 1966. From the '50s, Rudy D'Emilo and Joe Belmont, c. 1954 are quite worthy.

dukeballboy88
12-01-2010, 08:42 AM
Right now Id have to say its a tie. Irving is better than Williams as freshman. Irving was more prepared to come in and lead the team as a PG. Duhon and Smith are very similar so its hard to compare them.

Next years back court with Irving and Rivers will be the best back court ever in college!

flyingdutchdevil
12-01-2010, 08:57 AM
Duhon and Smith are very similar so its hard to compare them.

How are they similar players? They are both defensive specialists and both strong team leaders (Duhon was a fantastic team leader by his senior year and, so far, Smith is also a good leader, especially with the freshman) However, Duhon was never the scorer that Smith is (If I recall, Duhon was a poor 3pt shooter). Duhon, on the other hand, is a much more savvy point guard who protected the ball better.

In a two-on-two game, I'd rather have two scorers (like Irving and Smith) rather than 1.5 scorers (like JWill and Duhon).

COYS
12-01-2010, 09:07 AM
Duhon and Smith are very similar so its hard to compare them.


I don't think this is true at all. Smith is a score-first guard whose primary instinct is to attack the rim while hunting for his shot. His assist totals are up this year so far, which is great, but he is still learning how to be a distributor. Duhon was a pass-first point guard who looked to set up other teammates more than he looked to score for himself. Duhon never approached the 17+ppg that Smith averaged last year. In fact, Duhon only managed to average double figures his senior season at 10ppg. Meanwhile, Smith hasn't even come close to matching Duhon's lowest assists per game total of 4.5, which he hit in his freshman year. Even if Smith continues his current pace and manages to average 5.7 assists throughout the whole season, that would still rank behind Duhon's career average and be less than Chris averaged from his sophomore year onward.

dukeballboy88
12-01-2010, 09:13 AM
I guess I was looking more into what Duhon and Smith will look like when Smith gets drafted. In the NBA, Smith and Duhon will look like clones!

Although, I think Duhon could have scored more if he came along at a different time. He played on some good teams that had scorers in place, all he had to do was keep it in the road! Last year, if Smith doesnt emerge, Duke doesnt win!

pamtar
12-01-2010, 09:39 AM
So I'd go with the following if we're looking at Duke historically with an emphasis on the post-season.
1. Dawkins-Amaker '86
2. Williams-Duhon '01
3. Hurley-Hill '92
4. Langdon-Avery '99
5. Scheyer-Smith '10
6. Duhon-Redick '04

But if we had a 2 on 2 tournament out of all the combinations, I'd think Williams-Duhon '02 would meet Irving-Smith '11 in the finals.

I agree with your 1-6 list but will have to disagree on the tournament outcome. In a casual 2 on 2 match-up I'll have to go with Duhon-Redick. Duhon has the speed to defend Kyrie or Williams. That leaves Nolan or Duhon (who is now playing on both team simultaneously :) ) to defend the best shooter in Duke history.

Kedsy
12-01-2010, 11:33 AM
I guess I was looking more into what Duhon and Smith will look like when Smith gets drafted. In the NBA, Smith and Duhon will look like clones!

I don't think this statement is true, either. In the NBA, Duhon is considered to be a pass-first point guard who can't shoot. It remains to be seen whether Nolan can come into the league as a PG (unlikely) or a combo guard or an undersized SG, but his shooting/scoring ability is way ahead of his passing now and it will still be ahead on draft day.

superdave
12-01-2010, 11:53 AM
I do think Kyrie will get there by February, a season earlier than Jason Williams did. (Didn't Coach K say earlier this year that Williams did not play pg until he arrived in Durham?)



Not sure if you meant Irving did not play pg until he arrived in Durham, so if not, I wanted to point out that apparently Kyrie didn't play much point guard during high school either.

I believe Coach K said back in Sept/Oct that Irving was a true pg whereas Jason Williams had to learn how to play point once he arrived in Durham, having played off the ball more in high school.

superdave
12-01-2010, 11:56 AM
I agree with your 1-6 list but will have to disagree on the tournament outcome. In a casual 2 on 2 match-up I'll have to go with Duhon-Redick. Duhon has the speed to defend Kyrie or Williams. That leaves Nolan or Duhon (who is now playing on both team simultaneously :) ) to defend the best shooter in Duke history.

Would Redick be the best shooter in Duke history if he didnt have 4 other guys running a play to get him a good look? I dont think so. He's not going to be able to get open looks in a 2-2 game and is not as good at creating for himself as the quicker guys he'd be up against.

I think the combo guards like Williams and Smith would be tough to beat in a 2 vs 2 scenario.

flyingdutchdevil
12-01-2010, 11:58 AM
I believe Coach K said back in Sept/Oct that Irving was a true pg whereas Jason Williams had to learn how to play point once he arrived in Durham, having played off the ball more in high school.

I read somewhere (can't find it) that Kyrie was the primarily playing off the ball in high school as the son's coach was the primary 1 on the team. While Kyrie was never considered a 2, I'm guessing that he played the 2 like Nolan plays the 2 (ie a combo guard) in high school.

Duke: A Dynasty
12-01-2010, 02:50 PM
I read somewhere (can't find it) that Kyrie was the primarily playing off the ball in high school as the son's coach was the primary 1 on the team. While Kyrie was never considered a 2, I'm guessing that he played the 2 like Nolan plays the 2 (ie a combo guard) in high school.

I always thought Kyrie was the 1 but in an interview I just watched with coach K he states Kyrie was more like a 2 in highschool.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=oneil_dana&id=5865980

But I thought I also remember seeing somewhere where ole Roy was upset that Kyrie ran point cause that was what he wanted his recruit to do(sorry I can not remember who it was; Drew II mybe?).

superdave
12-01-2010, 03:38 PM
But I thought I also remember seeing somewhere where ole Roy was upset that Kyrie ran point cause that was what he wanted his recruit to do(sorry I can not remember who it was; Drew II mybe?).

Roy was joking when he said that according to the article I read.

FireOgilvie
12-01-2010, 03:45 PM
I read somewhere (can't find it) that Kyrie was the primarily playing off the ball in high school as the son's coach was the primary 1 on the team. While Kyrie was never considered a 2, I'm guessing that he played the 2 like Nolan plays the 2 (ie a combo guard) in high school.

You are exactly right. Kyrie had a Nolan-like role while Kevin Boyle Jr. was more like a Tyler Thornton type role.

I like the unlikely Rivers, Irving, Dawkins, Curry, Cook, Thornton backcourt.

Duke of Nashville
12-01-2010, 04:01 PM
How are they similar players? They are both defensive specialists and both strong team leaders (Duhon was a fantastic team leader by his senior year and, so far, Smith is also a good leader, especially with the freshman) However, Duhon was never the scorer that Smith is (If I recall, Duhon was a poor 3pt shooter). Duhon, on the other hand, is a much more savvy point guard who protected the ball better.

In a two-on-two game, I'd rather have two scorers (like Irving and Smith) rather than 1.5 scorers (like JWill and Duhon).


I looked up his stats and he basically averaged 30% from behind the arc. Surprising since Duhon won the Micky D's 3 point contest coming out of highschool.

_TheFakeJWill_
12-01-2010, 04:51 PM
i seen the same tweet as well and i also put Kyrie, Rivers :)

SupaDave
12-01-2010, 05:00 PM
I looked up his stats and he basically averaged 30% from behind the arc. Surprising since Duhon won the Micky D's 3 point contest coming out of highschool.

Things change a bit with a hand in your face...

Duke of Nashville
12-01-2010, 05:15 PM
Things change a bit with a hand in your face...

It also changes when you have three all-americans to pass to as well. 2.3 steals his sophmore year! What do you think he role was?