KI vs J Schey

[DeBlueDevil]

Now...I do this out of my love for debate and with nothing but love for Jon Scheyer and all has done for the Duke program but I told people when Kyrie signed to Duke that he would prove to be a better true PG and he will be able to make everyone a lot better in comparison to when Jon ran things for our National Championship run. Not that I am at all disappointed in anything Jon did. Jon addressed an absolute need of a team that lacked a legitimate ball handler and did a great job might I add!

But, for the sake of debate I have to point out that Kyrie has to have proved last night that he is and will always be a better ball handler and fit for a PG then Jon Scheyer and this team will be tons better offensively then when Jon ran things last year. Again, I love Jon! But I simply think Kyrie is better.

For those who say "Jon was a Senior and has a national championship and is a proven leader, how can any freshman be better than him?"....I agree to all those facts and I am by no means taking that away from him when I debate this. But Kyrie took a bonafide pre-season first team All-American last night and made him look absolutely silly. Could Jon do the same? Yea I think he would have had a normal great Jon game but I just don't see Pullen struggling to guard Jon as he did with Kyrie. Of course, there are plenty things to compare with type of team and style of offense and personnel so forth and so on which is why I am eager to hear all your thoughts. But simply IMO....Duke is a better team with Kyrie Irving at the point when compared to Jon Scheyer at the point and I'd pick him everytime. I know some might call me crazy and I'll admit it's early...but again just my opinion....please....HAVE AT IT!!!

[MartyClark]

I am unable to vote against my alltime favorite Duke player, Jon Scheyer, on anything.

Kyrie is a very special player who has the potential to dominate games. He will provide us with lots of fun this year.

This is a great "problem" for the Duke basketball fans to ponder. Who is better, the point guard on last year's national championship team or the current, true freshman point guard.

[Indoor66]

Now...I do this out of my love for debate and with nothing but love for Jon Scheyer and all has done for the Duke program but I told people when Kyrie signed to Duke that he would prove to be a better true PG and he will be able to make everyone a lot better in comparison to when Jon ran things for our National Championship run. Not that I am at all disappointed in anything Jon did. Jon addressed an absolute need of a team that lacked a legitimate ball handler and did a great job might I add!

But, for the sake of debate I have to point out that Kyrie has to have proved last night that he is and will always be a better ball handler and fit for a PG then Jon Scheyer and this team will be tons better offensively then when Jon ran things last year. Again, I love Jon! But I simply think Kyrie is better.

For those who say "Jon was a Senior and has a national championship and is a proven leader, how can any freshman be better than him?"....I agree to all those facts and I am by no means taking that away from him when I debate this. But Kyrie took a bonafide pre-season first team All-American last night and made him look absolutely silly. Could Jon do the same? Yea I think he would have had a normal great Jon game but I just don't see Pullen struggling to guard Jon as he did with Kyrie. Of course, there are plenty things to compare with type of team and style of offense and personnel so forth and so on which is why I am eager to hear all your thoughts. But simply IMO....Duke is a better team with Kyrie Irving at the point when compared to Jon Scheyer at the point and I'd pick him everytime. I know some might call me crazy and I'll admit it's early...but again just my opinion....please....HAVE AT IT!!!

Each has his unique qualities. They are hard to compare - their games are so different.

Kyrie has a different team to play point on. Duke '09-'10 was not as fast or quick as '10-'11. The needs at point are different. The dynamics are different.

Apples and oranges - but each delicious.

[PADukeMom]

At this point I would choose Jon Schyer based solely on senior experience. Kyrie made a stuipd mistake in fouling away from the basket with a few seconds on the clock right before halftime. It would have been an impossible shot & Kyrie has to learn to back-off in that type of situation. Last night it didn't come back to bite him but as we go further into the season it might.
Jon won a national title while Kyrie has the potential to win one.

[Rudy]

De, I'll accept your invitation and call you crazy. Why even compare? It diminishes both. Kyrie's great and so was/is Jon, each in their own way. I assume you would rather have had John Wall as a point guard than a National Championship? After all, by all accounts Wall was/is a better point guard than Scheyer.

[superdave]

I'd rather discuss how Kyrie would have destroyed both Ty Lawson and Ray Felton and prevented two very unfortunate Unc championships had he been born a little earlier.

I'd compare his ability to finish in the lane to that of Jason Williams, his coast-to-coast ability to Bobby Hurley, his burgeoning QB skills to Chris Paul and his nose for the passing to lanes to John Wall (who has longer arms and is quicker). His jumper has been more consistent than I expected this year too.

Scheyer and Irving really seem too different to compare. Hope the result is the same though.

[MChambers]

De, I'll accept your invitation and call you crazy. Why even compare? It diminishes both. Kyrie's great and so was/is Jon, each in their own way. I assume you would rather have had John Wall as a point guard than a National Championship? After all, by all accounts Wall was/is a better point guard than Scheyer.
I see no reason to compare. Two great players. I'd rather appreciate each for their unique qualities and not worry about who is better, etc.

[DeBlueDevil]

McChambers and Rudy....fair enough I respect your opinion that you'd rather talk about something else thats totally fine...but simply started the conversation as I said before for the sake of debate. I think its an opportunity to get fans of both players a chance to list reason why they love Jon and Kyrie and compare the two. No one is right nor wrong...

Long Story short...if you don't want to talk about it....don't reply :)

[CDu]

I think you're pigeonholing what you'd expect from your PG. The PG can be played in a variety of ways, each with their strengths and weaknesses.

Scheyer was a fantastic PG last year by creating for himself and others in the half court, controlling the pace of the game, and (most importantly) not turning the ball over. He also did a number of little things that don't show up in the box score. In those aspects, he's definitely superior to Irving as a PG.

Irving, on the other hand, is far superior in the more "athletic" components of the position. He's more explosive off the dribble, better at getting to the rim, and better in the open floor. So on a team that wants to push tempo, he's the better fit.

So as someone said earlier, it's comparing apples to oranges. But I think it's important not to pigeonhole your definition of PG to just the explosive/athletic aspects, but to also consider the game management/possession aspects as well. They each had their various strengths relative to each other at PG.

[DeBlueDevil]

De, I'll accept your invitation and call you crazy. Why even compare? It diminishes both. Kyrie's great and so was/is Jon, each in their own way. I assume you would rather have had John Wall as a point guard than a National Championship? After all, by all accounts Wall was/is a better point guard than Scheyer.

Ohh yea and on another note....John Wall may be a better player than Jon or even Kyrie but in the end but that doesn't mean that I would prefer him to either one of our PGs. I personally would take Jon and Kyrie for the Duke program personally. John Wall was good for Kentucky but I don't think he would fit in the Duke program. Just my opinion. Still a great player though. Not sure if Wall would've bought in to the "Together" concept here at Duke.

Anyways, I think I addressed this earlier also. I love Jon just as much as any other Dukie...just like to talk basketball. Don't turn me into a bad guy because I'm a basketball junkie and like to discuss the game and players as such. I do not think the conversation diminishes either. But again I respect your opinion. Thanks.

[COYS]

If I may give a somewhat clumsy analogy, Kyrie is like a high performance sports car and Jon is like a souped up family sedan. Kyrie's ability passes the eye-test immediately, just ask Pullen. When Kyrie dribbles down the court, everyone in the crowd can see what makes him so great. Jon is more like a Volvo. He's not as fast or as flashy as the sports car, but there is a lot of power under the hood and he gets the job done in a completely different way. Keep in mind that Jon led Duke's most efficient offense of the decade (even including the high scoring 2001 national championship team). Quite frankly, if Singler hadn't been called for a bogus traveling call as he slipped and passed to an open Scheyer in the Butler game, Scheyer would have been the leading scorer in the Final Four and the likely Final Four MOP. Scheyer will probably be one of the most underrated players in Duke history.

That said, we're lucky that we don't have to choose. We had Scheyer last year, and that was perfect for the team. We have Kyrie this year, and he is perfect for the team.

[Rudy]

Not saying you're a bad guy, just disagreeing. It's all good.


John Wall was good for Kentucky but I don't think he would fit in the Duke program.
I used to think that, too, but I've reevaluated him after hearing him talk and seeing him play in DC. He does understand team play and respect for the game and teammates. He just had the bad taste to pick the wrong college. ;) Actually, since he was always going to be a one and done guy, if his goal was to go high in the draft, playing with a run-and-gun super athletic team instead of a methodical one (Duke last year) was the right professional choice for him.

[DeBlueDevil]

"No disrespect meant to last year's point guard Jon Scheyer, but freshman Kyrie Irving is an upgrade at that spot.

A significant one." - Jeff Goodman msn.com

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/Duke-Blue-Devils-look-better-this-season-112310

Not that he is the end all be all of basketball analysts but here is Goodman's thoughts...just thought I'd add this here.

[brevity]

McChambers and Rudy....fair enough I respect your opinion that you'd rather talk about something else thats totally fine...but simply started the conversation as I said before for the sake of debate. I think its an opportunity to get fans of both players a chance to list reason why they love Jon and Kyrie and compare the two. No one is right nor wrong...

Long Story short...if you don't want to talk about it....don't reply :)

You may not like wishy-washy answers, but when you pose a question like this on a board like this, you should expect them. Bold statements on DBR are few and far between.

So here: Jon Scheyer. Not only did he rise to the occasion, but he played outside our level of familiarity. People on this board worried about his PG ability, and he just shamed them into drooling submission.

Silencing doubters is one of the greatest things a human being can achieve.

[-jk]

As I pointed out in an earlier Kyle Singler position thread, basketball (at least at its best) is a team sport.

Jon was the better player for last year's team. Kyrie is the better player for this year's team.

Where would we have been with Kyrie last year? Z wouldn't get past half court most possessions, so he wouldn't have seen any playing time. Lance was good, but also not the quickest player. The Plumlees and Kelly were still developing. We wouldn't have had the depth for a deep run in March, much less a championship run. Jon was the perfect guard for last year's team.

This year's team has much more depth and is much faster, ergo the up-tempo, fast-break, full-on defense game plan. The guard depth and the speed of the bigs matches Kyrie's skills. Kyrie is the perfect guard for this year's team.

Comparing individual players without the context of the teams they play on can't paint a full picture.

-jk

[yancem]

Not saying you're a bad guy, just disagreeing. It's all good.

I used to think that, too, but I've reevaluated him after hearing him talk and seeing him play in DC. He does understand team play and respect for the game and teammates. He just had bad taste to pick the wrong college. ;) Actually, since he was always going to be a one and done guy, if his goal was to go high in the draft, playing with a run-and-gun super athletic team instead of a methodical one (Duke last year) was the right professional choice for him.

Not to high jack the thread but if Wall had played at Duke last season, we wouldn't have played the same methodical style. The addition of Wall would have provided more backcourt depth and athleticism. With the ball in Wall's hands, Scheyer and Smith would have run on the wings, setting up for 3's and cutting to the hoop. I don't think that that team would have been quite as fast as this year because of the presence of Z and the absence of Curry but the pace would definitely been faster.

[dukelifer]

Now...I do this out of my love for debate and with nothing but love for Jon Scheyer and all has done for the Duke program but I told people when Kyrie signed to Duke that he would prove to be a better true PG and he will be able to make everyone a lot better in comparison to when Jon ran things for our National Championship run. Not that I am at all disappointed in anything Jon did. Jon addressed an absolute need of a team that lacked a legitimate ball handler and did a great job might I add!

But, for the sake of debate I have to point out that Kyrie has to have proved last night that he is and will always be a better ball handler and fit for a PG then Jon Scheyer and this team will be tons better offensively then when Jon ran things last year. Again, I love Jon! But I simply think Kyrie is better.

For those who say "Jon was a Senior and has a national championship and is a proven leader, how can any freshman be better than him?"....I agree to all those facts and I am by no means taking that away from him when I debate this. But Kyrie took a bonafide pre-season first team All-American last night and made him look absolutely silly. Could Jon do the same? Yea I think he would have had a normal great Jon game but I just don't see Pullen struggling to guard Jon as he did with Kyrie. Of course, there are plenty things to compare with type of team and style of offense and personnel so forth and so on which is why I am eager to hear all your thoughts. But simply IMO....Duke is a better team with Kyrie Irving at the point when compared to Jon Scheyer at the point and I'd pick him everytime. I know some might call me crazy and I'll admit it's early...but again just my opinion....please....HAVE AT IT!!!

First of all Jon Scheyer had to become the point guard- not his natural position- because Duke needed him to play that position. His taking it on allowed Nolan to get his mojo back and there has been no stopping him since. For Scheyer to have the season he had running the point with little real experience - speaks to how great a team player Scheyer was at Duke. He did everything asked of him and with fewer physical gifts- he was a warrior and Duke would not have won the NC without him. Irving has more PG gifts and is really just learning the game- which is scary. That said- he is a remarkable ball handler- maybe the best Duke has ever had. His ability to go right and left in traffic is mind boggling. Scheyer was a great college player and did everything and more asked of him. Irving is a great talent and has a much higher ceiling. I would take both on my team in a heartbeat.

[DeBlueDevil]

Not to high jack the thread but if Wall had played at Duke last season, we wouldn't have played the same methodical style. The addition of Wall would have provided more backcourt depth and athleticism. With the ball in Wall's hands, Scheyer and Smith would have run on the wings, setting up for 3's and cutting to the hoop. I don't think that that team would have been quite as fast as this year because of the presence of Z and the absence of Curry but the pace would definitely been faster.

I totally agree with this! I know both teams were different but if you swap Kyrie in for Jon on last years team then I believe we would have run a totally different style. with Nolan and Kyle on the wings and Mason and Dre and Kelly and Lance and Miles would probably have dominated the playing time as they can run the court. May not have been as fast but definitely still affective and possibly better. Yes Zoubs would have had to add value in other ways or if we needed to play that game we would have to use him. May not have been as good of a 3pt shooting team but still a darn good one!

Plus you guys say this as if you do not believe Kyrie can affectively run a half court offense or as if this isn't a strength of his as well. While Jon def was better at it...Kyrie can do everything a PG has to do..he has all the tools. All he lacks in comparison to ANY PG is seasoning and maturity somewhat. I think if you insert him on last years team then we definitely still have the potential to win a National Championship

[lotusland]

Scheyer's success playing point last year was amazing. He had not practiced year-round at point like Kyrie has. He was a 2/3 until late in his Jr. year of college yet his assist/turnover ratio was ridiculous and his defense was superb. Duke didn't have the guards to run last year so Jon was perfect. I'm as excited about Kyrie as anyone else but let's not minimize what Scheyer accomplished. Actually the best Kyrie can do is match Jon's success last year. You can't do better the winning a championship.

[loran16]

Silly thread really.

Jon played point out of necessity. He was amazing at it, being extremely careful with the ball and rarely turned it over. But that wasn't his natural position really. Meanwhile, his experience made him a solid defender, underrated rebounder, and a guy who could easily score a lot.

Kyrie is a pure point. He has athletic skills Jon didn't have. But really, he's way lacking on experience, and won't compare to Jon's experience by the end of this year. Huge difference. But as a pure point with those skills, he plays differently from Jon.

If Jon had a 5th year, and was playing instead of Kyrie, we still should be the #1 team in the nation, we just would've been a different team (slower). And that would've been fine. I'm not sure it would've been better or worse.

[mapei]

Count me among those who think this conversation is more fun than silly. My opinion: Jon the senior was all-around better than Kyrie the freshman. Better decision-making ability, much better 3-point shooting, better leader. Kyrie is insanely athletic and talented, and will get there if he stays at Duke. Kyrie the freshman is certainly better than Jon the freshman.

BTW, I like Wall, too. I'm not so sure he wouldn't have fit with Duke's system, though it clearly wouldn't have lasted long.

[Starter]

Count me among those who think this conversation is more fun than silly.

Same. And my take is that there's no question Kyrie now is a more talented player than Scheyer was last year. Zero question about that.

But Scheyer was such a unique player in how he adjusted to exactly what the team needed all four years he was there, and fit in perfectly in his role for a national title team. As good as Kyrie is -- and he's very, very, very good -- he has a lot to live up to in that regard. I'm not saying he won't, of course.

[Kedsy]

Count me among those who think this conversation is more fun than silly. My opinion: Jon the senior was all-around better than Kyrie the freshman. Better decision-making ability, much better 3-point shooting, better leader. Kyrie is insanely athletic and talented, and will get there if he stays at Duke. Kyrie the freshman is certainly better than Jon the freshman.

Well, I believe this is more silly than fun, but it's not totally unreasonable. We've seen Kyrie for 4 games, and he's really good. I agree with the apples/oranges part of this debate, and with those who say Jon was perfect for last year's team and Kyrie is perfect for this one. I also agree with those who say if Kyrie or John Wall were on our team last year we would have played a different style with a much faster pace. I disagree with the OP saying that one game against Kansas State "proves" anything.

But the real reason I'm responding is the above quoted/bolded statement. I don't think we can say that Jon was a "much better" three-point shooter than Kyrie. So far, Kyrie is shooting over 42% from 3-range, and his form looks pretty good. Jon never got as high as 39% for a season. I'm not saying Kyrie's a better shooter than Jon -- he's only played four games and Jon exceeded 38% from 3-land in three straight seasons. But it's not clear that Jon was better than Kyrie, either, and we certainly can't yet say he was "much better."

[moonpie23]

"great" = physical ability + managing the game + DECISIONS


right now, jon is a step above in two of those 3.........let's see how quickly kyrie can catch up......i think he will...

[Cockabeau]

The only way you compare the two is if KI ends up getting a ring. Only then can you compare the two.

[COYS]

The only way you compare the two is if KI ends up getting a ring. Only then can you compare the two.

I don't think this is fair, necessarily, even though I'm of the mind that Scheyer must be mentioned with Williams and Hurley when you talk about great seasons from point guards at Duke. Pistol Pete was one of the greatest players in college ever (better than Scheyer or Irving) and he didn't get a ring. He just happened to play on a team that won all of three games the year before he arrived and never had much else in its arsenal. This is purely a hypothetical and I hope the basketball gods aren't listening at all, but let's say that Duke fails to win the title and in the game that we lose, Irving goes off for 32 points, 11 assists, 5 steals, and 4 rebounds while shooting perfectly from the line, hitting 50% from three, and making 60% of his 2's. The rest of the team, however, is sloppy, cold from outside, and defends poorly. Does this suddenly make Kyrie less of a player? I don't think so.

[DeBlueDevil]

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news;_ylt=AhOHT6.9dDGESMbEbooW5.zevbYF?slug=jn-irving112410

Link to a great article having to do with Kyrie and even gives some comparison to exactly what we are talking about here.

Interesting input from Nolan and Jason Williams

[Vincetaylor]

Now...I do this out of my love for debate and with nothing but love for Jon Scheyer and all has done for the Duke program but I told people when Kyrie signed to Duke that he would prove to be a better true PG and he will be able to make everyone a lot better in comparison to when Jon ran things for our National Championship run. Not that I am at all disappointed in anything Jon did. Jon addressed an absolute need of a team that lacked a legitimate ball handler and did a great job might I add!

But, for the sake of debate I have to point out that Kyrie has to have proved last night that he is and will always be a better ball handler and fit for a PG then Jon Scheyer and this team will be tons better offensively then when Jon ran things last year. Again, I love Jon! But I simply think Kyrie is better.

For those who say "Jon was a Senior and has a national championship and is a proven leader, how can any freshman be better than him?"....I agree to all those facts and I am by no means taking that away from him when I debate this. But Kyrie took a bonafide pre-season first team All-American last night and made him look absolutely silly. Could Jon do the same? Yea I think he would have had a normal great Jon game but I just don't see Pullen struggling to guard Jon as he did with Kyrie. Of course, there are plenty things to compare with type of team and style of offense and personnel so forth and so on which is why I am eager to hear all your thoughts. But simply IMO....Duke is a better team with Kyrie Irving at the point when compared to Jon Scheyer at the point and I'd pick him everytime. I know some might call me crazy and I'll admit it's early...but again just my opinion....please....HAVE AT IT!!!


Irving is better. No question about it. Jon was really good, but Irving takes this team to another level. He is better in just about every aspect of the game, so it's a no brainer to me.

[mus074]

Jon's half-court control was much better paired with Zoubek's half-court game. This is a different team now and have a different point at the helm. Each has his own skills and advantages and pairing them with the right team is critical. And God bless K for recruiting the right team components for each. :)

I love a delicious Belgian Ale but would not pair it with the same meal I would a delicious robust Zin.

[mapei]

Kedsy: "I don't think we can say that Jon was a "much better" three-point shooter than Kyrie. So far, Kyrie is shooting over 42% from 3-range, and his form looks pretty good. Jon never got as high as 39% for a season."

Fair point.

[Hancock 4 Duke]

Well, IMHO, Kyrie just doesn't seem to have the leadership that Jon had. Jon was one of those natural born leaders
He had that whole effect on the team that made them play harder. He was a unique player who talked the most and definitely jst added that championship factor they needed. A comparable player to him from recently would be Greg Paulus. Wasn't the most athletic player, but made the team that much better.

[Jeff0r3]

He's not a leader? I thought it was a totally different team when Kyrie got his 4th foul last night and K took him out. The dynamic of the team totally changed with Nolan and Curry bringing the ball up. He's played a handfull of games and "The Greatest Coach of ALL time" is letting him bring the ball up the court each and every major posession. When the game was close, Kyrie had the ball..

That being said, this is a very funny thread in the fact that neither can be compared. I'd have to think that when Duke wins a championship with Kyrie at the point(Notice I said when), then we'll not be talking about who is the better, Jon Sheyer or Kyrie Irving, we'll be asking whether Kyrie is the best Duke PG of all time.

Jon Sheyer filled the role of PG and not only is he a great ball handler, but his Basketball IQ is off the chart. I can even see him on the Duke sideline in the near future. Everything about Sheyer as a Duke Basketball player is great! But in my eyes, Kyrie wins hands down.

[-jk]

I can't help but wonder: who was better, Magic or Bird?

-jk

Edit: never mind. Most of y'all are too young.

[Starter]

Bird. Come on now. Could Magic have gone off the floor, off the scoreboard, off the "bank-board," no rim (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlVYMPIucUM)? Rhetorical question.

[ncexnyc]

The only way you compare the two is if KI ends up getting a ring. Only then can you compare the two.
So does that mean we can't compare Trent Dilfer to Dan Marino, because Marino doesn't have a Super Bowl ring?

[Des Esseintes]

Many in the thread have described Scheyer as "underrated," and no doubt he was. But have we already forgotten how he was rated? Through the first half of last season, Jon was a national player of the year candidate. Irving is a fantastic talent--a greater talent than Scheyer by a huge margin--and he has just been named the best player of the CBE. Jon, however, spent November and December of 2009 playing perhaps the best basketball of anyone in the country.

He tailed off somewhat for a while during conference play, but even still he was an All-American. Will Kyrie reach that status? Maybe! But it will be almost impossible for him to give the team more than Scheyer did.

http://kenpom.com/playerstats.php?s=ORtg&y=2010
Among qualifying players, Scheyer's 127.0 Offensive Rating ranked third in the country last season.

[Kilby]

The way I like to think of these questions is if you are playing 5 on 5 and you get first pick who do you choose. If you want to win you choose Irving. No disrespect for Scheyer here. I thought that Scheyer's greatest attribute was that he for the most part played within his abilities. So you could almost always count on him not to screw up and hit a big three with the pressure on. This is not the same as shutting down another great point guard or being the go to scorer with the ball in his hands.

[gumbomoop]

Jon did amazing things that he wasn't good enough to do. Kyrie does amazing things that he is good enough to do.

[Cockabeau]

So does that mean we can't compare Trent Dilfer to Dan Marino, because Marino doesn't have a Super Bowl ring?

When was Trent Dilfer ever a miami Dolphin?

[dukeimac]

You must remember, Jon did not come to Duke as a PG, he was a SG. He wasn't a PG until last year. Basically by default.

But again, this just makes me appreciate Coach K even more. What he did last year with a team cut from the late 1980's to early 1990's. They had a true post player. Outside Hans I'm not sure many teams who won the title recently had a true post player. Most of the good post players in college go on to be a PF in the pros. They played a slow game, even with the shot clock. They walked the ball up the court a lot, who does that in today's game? LOL, not even Duke this year.

In Coach K I trust, I'm sitting back and enjoying the ride. Someday he will retire.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Someday he will retire.

Blasphemy is not tolerated on DBR.

[MarkD83]

Bird. Come on now. Could Magic have gone off the floor, off the scoreboard, off the "bank-board," no rim (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlVYMPIucUM)? Rhetorical question.

Kyle Singler can most definitely make that shot.

[NSDukeFan]

The way I like to think of these questions is if you are playing 5 on 5 and you get first pick who do you choose. If you want to win you choose Irving. No disrespect for Scheyer here. I thought that Scheyer's greatest attribute was that he for the most part played within his abilities. So you could almost always count on him not to screw up and hit a big three with the pressure on. This is not the same as shutting down another great point guard or being the go to scorer with the ball in his hands.

I would argue just the opposite. One of these two has won 2? ACC championships, an NCAA title and over 100 games at the NCAA level. The other one is very quick, can get in the lane very well, has a great handle, can get his pull-up shot off just about whenever, but at this point has won an early season tournament and 5 games at the NCAA level. If you want to have a very exciting, potentially great, player on your team, pick Kyrie. If you want to win (and want to pick the player who has the best track record of winning), you pick Jon (at least at this point.)

[Ultrarunner]

This whole thread feels a bit like asking a parent "Which child do you love most, the pretty one or the smart one?"

I much prefer to appreciate what each brings to their team but they are different teams and different years. Undoubledly, Kyrie is a marvelous talent and I expect him to do great things as long as he's here. His play thus far has been spectacular and he seems a really nice young man.

But, in defense of Jon, he exemplified the Duke way. He worked hard, was smart, hustled on every play and completely bought into the team concept. If his play on the court is a good indicator, Jon is a young man of high character who represented the Univeristy as well as any one individual can.

Rather than KI vs Scheyer, maybe we can just appreciate both. Instead of "which one?" it should be "aren't we lucky to have had both?"

[Starter]

Nah, I mean, I think it's reasonable and possible to assess who is a better player. It's clear Kyrie is a better player.

And considering what we know about Jon Scheyer, I think it tells us more about Kyrie than it does Jon.

[Newton_14]

The way I like to think of these questions is if you are playing 5 on 5 and you get first pick who do you choose. If you want to win you choose Irving. No disrespect for Scheyer here. I thought that Scheyer's greatest attribute was that he for the most part played within his abilities. So you could almost always count on him not to screw up and hit a big three with the pressure on. This is not the same as shutting down another great point guard or being the go to scorer with the ball in his hands.

Scheyer "shut down" more than his fair share of great wing players, was one of three "go to scorers" on a National Championship team and was also a leading candidate for National POY for much of last year. So yeah you could say he "not screwed up" a lot.

[ncexnyc]

When was Trent Dilfer ever a miami Dolphin?

Dilfer never was a Dolphin, but that is irrelevant as he was a QB. The discussion we are having is about PG's, specifically KI vs Scheyer.

[DeBlueDevil]

KI > J Scheyer


ENOUGH SAID!!

[-jk]

KI > J Scheyer


ENOUGH SAID!!

Based purely on individual skills, almost surely. But basketball remains a team sport.

2010 ACC, NCAA champs > 2011 ? (so far)

There is more to being a basketball player than single player comparisons. Replacing Jon with Kyrie on last year's team probably doesn't make a Championship team.

Kyrie has vast talent, but that's only part of the game. Just look at the all-star olympic teams pre-K. I'm really looking forward to watching the team, and Kyrie's place in it, develop.

-jk

[Kedsy]

KI > J Scheyer


ENOUGH SAID!!

We all knew Kyrie was really good before last night. While obviously Kyrie is more talented, I still believe the comparison is apples and oranges.

But my point now is if it wasn't "enough said" yesterday morning, then one tremendous game by Kyrie doesn't change that.

[ncexnyc]

We all knew Kyrie was really good before last night. While obviously Kyrie is more talented, I still believe the comparison is apples and oranges.

But my point now is if it wasn't "enough said" yesterday morning, then one tremendous game by Kyrie doesn't change that.

You're absolutely correct!

Let's just appreciate the fact that we've been blessed with having two extremely talented young men wear Duke Blue. It shouldn't come down to which one is better than the other.

[Cockabeau]

I still don't think its fair to compare the two players. One has a ring, One doesn't.

Not to mention that they are completely different players-one is a savvy,heady combo with off the chart intangibles and underwhelming athleticism. One is a savvy,once in a decade pure point guard with explosive quickness and literally no weakness to his game.

Chances are that KI will not win a ring because he will leave after one year he is that good. In that scenario, in terms of the bigger picture success is measured in rings and until KI wins one....Jon>KI in my book.

[_TheFakeJWill_]

How about lets just put KI at point and JS at the 2 guard :)

[Starter]

Not for nothing, I think last year's team probably would have been just fine with Kyrie Irving at the point. Just a hunch.

[Kedsy]

Not for nothing, I think last year's team probably would have been just fine with Kyrie Irving at the point. Just a hunch.

No one disagrees with that. But they would have played a completely different style. Brian Zoubek, who probably would not have flourished in that style, may not have made the same sort of emergence, and the team may not have won the championship with both a thin backcourt and a thin, inexperienced frontcourt (assuming Z couldn't play big minutes in a running system).

Which is all neither here nor there. The point is, why even try to compare Jon on last year's team -- who was perfect for the system we did use and was the PG on a national championship team -- to Kyrie on this year's team?

[gep]

No one disagrees with that. But they would have played a completely different style. Brian Zoubek, who probably would not have flourished in that style, may not have made the same sort of emergence, and the team may not have won the championship with both a thin backcourt and a thin, inexperienced frontcourt (assuming Z couldn't play big minutes in a running system).

Which is all neither here nor there. The point is, why even try to compare Jon on last year's team -- who was perfect for the system we did use and was the PG on a national championship team -- to Kyrie on this year's team?

This is IT. Jon was the BEST for 2010 NC TEAM. Kyrie is this year's team's PG. So lets see how it goes from here (the past 7 games were just fantastic). I, for one, am enjoying watching Kyrie AND the team as they go forward. Kyle and Nolan WILL be huge when it all ends... IMHO

[SoCalDukeFan]

Jon S came to Duke as a shooting guard and out of necessity made himself the point guard on a NC team. That is pretty special.

If Kyrie Irving instead played on last year's team then things would have been different. I think Coach K would have figured out how to make it work.

Kyrie is a great talent and a better point guard than Jon. However Jon was a great player for Duke.

SoCal

[Starter]

No one disagrees with that. But they would have played a completely different style. Brian Zoubek, who probably would not have flourished in that style, may not have made the same sort of emergence, and the team may not have won the championship with both a thin backcourt and a thin, inexperienced frontcourt (assuming Z couldn't play big minutes in a running system).

Which is all neither here nor there. The point is, why even try to compare Jon on last year's team -- who was perfect for the system we did use and was the PG on a national championship team -- to Kyrie on this year's team?

Absolutely, I don't dispute any of what you're saying, and I love Scheyer. I'm just saying that to basically rule out or at least downplay last year's team as a championship contender if we miraculously swap Kyrie in for Jon doesn't seem like a prudent sentiment considering how much more talented KI is than Jon was.

I think SoCal has it pretty much right, except for his subject line. I tend to think that considering Duke won a national title with a very special situation where a good shooting guard adapted his game and played point guard out of necessity, the same result would have been far more than entirely possible with the best college point guard we've seen probably since Deron Williams and Chris Paul. (I think he's better and more complete than Wall was last year) Yes, Jon fit the style we played last year, but I think our team would have adapted to what Kyrie brings, as they're doing now. Or -- Kyrie would have adapted to the style we were playing in order to keep Zoubek on the floor. I don't think it's an enormous leap to think either -- or both -- to be possible, and I trust Krzyzewski would have figured out which way to go.

BTW, I think the point of this little debate is that it's a fun and harmless hypothetical (at least for some). Nobody's denigrating Jon by comparing him to Kyrie. The simple fact that he's in the discussion with a singular talent that could start for a lot of teams in the NBA right now is a testament to what Jon accomplished at Duke. And I love the fact that we're able to argue whether the guy we have now would have won the same national title we won anyway last year.

I also get the sense people are a little slow to embrace Kyrie on this board because he's a new and unfamiliar element, though I believe some of that is we haven't had someone with his sheer talent level since Jay arrived on the scene -- or maybe Deng. Livingston would have also qualified. People aren't used to that. Rest assured, it's going to be a lot of fun to get used to that.

[Vincetaylor]

Absolutely, I don't dispute any of what you're saying, and I love Scheyer. I'm just saying that to basically rule out or at least downplay last year's team as a championship contender if we miraculously swap Kyrie in for Jon doesn't seem like a prudent sentiment considering how much more talented KI is than Jon was.

I think SoCal has it pretty much right, except for his subject line. I tend to think that considering Duke won a national title with a very special situation where a good shooting guard adapted his game and played point guard out of necessity, the same result would have been far more than entirely possible with the best college point guard we've seen probably since Deron Williams and Chris Paul. (I think he's better and more complete than Wall was last year) Yes, Jon fit the style we played last year, but I think our team would have adapted to what Kyrie brings, as they're doing now. Or -- Kyrie would have adapted to the style we were playing in order to keep Zoubek on the floor. I don't think it's an enormous leap to think either -- or both -- to be possible, and I trust Krzyzewski would have figured out which way to go.

BTW, I think the point of this little debate is that it's a fun and harmless hypothetical (at least for some). Nobody's denigrating Jon by comparing him to Kyrie. The simple fact that he's in the discussion with a singular talent that could start for a lot of teams in the NBA right now is a testament to what Jon accomplished at Duke. And I love the fact that we're able to argue whether the guy we have now would have won the same national title we won anyway last year.

I also get the sense people are a little slow to embrace Kyrie on this board because he's a new and unfamiliar element, though I believe some of that is we haven't had someone with his sheer talent level since Jay arrived on the scene -- or maybe Deng. Livingston would have also qualified. People aren't used to that. Rest assured, it's going to be a lot of fun to get used to that.


Well said. It's a fun argument. It's the type of argument sports fans make all the time. However, saying Scheyer is better than Irving because he has a ring is an absurd argument. That's like saying Robert Horry is better than Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, LeBron, etc. because he won NBA championships and they didn't. If players are comparable in skill like Kobe vs. LeBron, the player with the rings will often be given a slight nod. Irving and Scheyer aren't comparable in skill. If the question is who is better, Irving or Scheyer, there is only one answer...Irving.

[JG Nothing]

KI > J Scheyer


ENOUGH SAID!!

But is KI(1) > J Scheyer(4)?

[DeBlueDevil]

But is KI(1) > J Scheyer(4)?

First of all...I want to say thank you Starter...that was the whole reason I started this thread. By saying that Kyrie is better than Jon...I am not trying to take a shot at Jon in anyway! I love Jon...I honestly believe we owe him a great deal of praise for his hand in a National Championship year and rightfully so. My point was just to debate peoples thoughts on the subject is all. Nothing personal. To those who think its a silly argument...I RESPECT that fully but I think its a fun one.

With that said...thanks for the quote above...this is another great question. And I have to say...yes Kyrie (1 yr) > Jon (4 yr). My evidence behind this is the fact that Kyrie has gone up against two seniors in Jacob Pullen (who I think is just slightly a better bball player than Jon) and Kalin Lucas (who isn't quite as good as Jon but it may be due to injury) and he dominated both. I think honestly IMO and some may think this is out of line but I think we have THE BEST PG in the country in our backcourt.

In my years of watching basketball sometimes you look at a player and realize that they make the ever so complicated game of basketball look so easy. Kyrie is this type of player. I noticed this when I started watching him as a recruit last year. I just felt that he was the perfect guard for this team and that he would do special things when he got here. Not that Jon isn't special either but Kyrie is a player that arguably if he stayed 4 years and did not get injured..could re-write all the Duke, ACC, and NCAA record books!! That unbelievable scoring record JJ set then Psycho T broke....Kyrie could arguably shatter that if he wanted...This kid is equivalent to any of those NBA stars you speak of when they were in college (CP3, Melo, Wall,...etc.). Jon was not this type of player. This doesn't make me any less of a Scheyer fan or Jon any less of a basketball player. There's only one Jon Scheyer. But most of you have to agree out of viewers and fans of basketball that this is an easy debate. Kyrie > Jon Scheyer....and to go even further Kyrie > most of NCAA...and if you really want to go far Kyrie > some NBA players.

I wonder if this was a debate over whether Singler was better player than Scheyer if most of you would think it was an outrageous debate? Some of you may not know that some analysts (D.Glenn of ESPN radio) are noted as saying some of his sources have gone on record saying Kyrie is the best player on the Duke team in practice ahead of two senior AA. Not that D.Glenn is the be all end all of NCAA BBALL but I'm sure he's talked to a coach or two. There are numerous factors that help Kyrie out in the end also. But at the end of the day I guess my point is Kyrie is VERY VERY VERY GOOD and don't be suprised to see him doing some of the same things some of the special PGs in the NBA are doing right now some day. Great day to be a Blue Devil :)