Can Christian Laettner get a little love?

[watzone]

"It was one of those games where everybody will always remember where they were when the shot went in."

Christian Laettner entered the HOF and it seems it flew under the radar. This kid is viewed by many as the best basketball player ever at Duke. Here is the KC.com article and GoDuke on his exploits and a couple of pics from KC - http://bluedevilnation.net/2010/11/duke-great-christian-laettner-enters-hof/

Do you think Laettner was the best ever at Duke?

[DukeDude]

Absolutely! I think Christian is the greatest player in Duke history, although my Duke history only covers the coach K era. He had an arrogance about him that made him universally hated outside of Duke, and I loved him for it.

[Rich]

Do you think Laettner was the best ever at Duke?

That's a tough question given how the game has changed over the years, the athleticism and conditioning of the players, and comparing players at different positions. We've had a similar discussion on these boards over the years comparing Michael Jordan and Bill Russell at the pro level.

I would say that Laettner was the best ever in clutch situations or the most clutch player in Duke history, take your pick. Might even be the most clutch player in NCAA basketball history when it comes to clutch shots/performances in big games. When it comes down to it, that label may be more important than "best ever" as it translates into titles, not just personal stats.

[6th Man]

That's a tough question given how the game has changed over the years, the athleticism and conditioning of the players, and comparing players at different positions. We've had a similar discussion on these boards over the years comparing Michael Jordan and Bill Russell at the pro level.

I would say that Laettner was the best ever in clutch situations or the most clutch player in Duke history, take your pick. Might even be the most clutch player in NCAA basketball history when it comes to clutch shots/performances in big games. When it comes down to it, that label may be more important than "best ever" as it translates into titles, not just personal stats.

I agree...this is a very tough question. I've always thought Laettner had the best career at Duke. He was a fierce competitor and just won ballgames. 10-10 in the Kentucky game from the field and 10-10 from the free throw line. Amazing!!!

However, I still think Grant Hill was the most talented player we ever had. I think of the '94 season when we lost to Arkansas in the title game. Grant Hill could play all 5 positions on the court. Amazing that Duke was so close to a title with that team. I think if you replaced Laettner with Hill on that team, I do not think we go as far in the tourney.

Probably depends on how you define greatest of all time. You need a shot with no time on the clock to win a game...Laettner is the man. You need a guy do do it all for your team to try and lead them to a title, then Grant Hill is your man.

[killerleft]

Best Duke player ever? Perhaps. But he was very, very, very intense. I don't know that any player in any sport can claim better focus than Laettner could bring to a basketball game.

Christian Laettner is my hero.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Best Duke player ever? Perhaps. But he was very, very, very intense. I don't know that any player in any sport can claim better focus than Laettner could bring to a basketball game.

Christian Laettner is my hero.
I'd put Art Heyman up there for the title of Mr. Intensity. If you've ever seen that dark look he had when he was about to drive to the basket or start off on a shooting binge, you'd never forget it.

Maybe another reason for some to love Artie and what he did for Duke is that Vic Bubas took him away from Carolina. Some of that bad blood remains even today.

[4decadedukie]

Laettner was a GREAT Duke basketball player, in every element of the game -- including leadership. However, I am not entirely convinced he was the best ever. For example, I would respectfully suggest that Shane Battier was at least as good a "victory catalyst," optimizing overall team performance (this does not suggest the squad talent equality, but rather getting the very best performance from the collective team). Similarly, Groat and especially Heyman -- obviously playing in a different era, with different conditions/environment -- were possibly equally intense competitors. Further, an augment can probably be made that Johnny Dawkins was instrumental in initially enabling the fabulously successful and long enduring "modern/K era" in Duke basketball. Grant Hill should likely be mentioned also, as possibly our "most athletic" (and, I believe, versatile) superstar.

None of the foregoing diminishes Christian's fabulous performance, nor his critical influence in Duke's basketball history. We have simply been VERY fortunate (as a university) to have such an abundance of legitimate "best" candidates.

[dball]

I'd put Art Heyman up there for the title of Mr. Intensity. If you've ever seen that dark look he had when he was about to drive to the basket or start off on a shooting binge, you'd never forget it.

Maybe another reason for some to love Artie and what he did for Duke is that Vic Bubas took him away from Carolina. Some of that bad blood remains even today.

Before my time but Dick Groat was the best basketball player in the building the other night (according to Bob Knight). :)

Art Heyman was great as was Jeff Mullins who followed. Lot of great players pre-K but I think Laettner was one of the best ever.

[dukeballboy88]

Laettner is the best college player of all time. The reason it starts with K, K carried Duke to the highest level. If my memory serves me correctly, Duke didnt win a title until K and Laettner?

[The Gordog]

"It was one of those games where everybody will always remember where they were when the shot went in."

Christian Laettner entered the HOF and it seems it flew under the radar. This kid is viewed by many as the best basketball player ever at Duke. Here is the KC.com article and GoDuke on his exploits and a couple of pics from KC - http://bluedevilnation.net/2010/11/duke-great-christian-laettner-enters-hof/

Do you think Laettner was the best ever at Duke?

Yes.

Only player EVER to start in 4 Final Fours.

The Shot. One of many clutch performances.

#1 3-pt shot accuracy all time Duke school history: 48.5%

Rediculously efficient shooting %: Frosh: 72.3, Soph: 51.1, Jr.: 57.5, Sr.: 57.5, Career: 57.4% (#4 all-time with more than twice the attempts of anyone above him.)

#1 Duke all time FT made: 713 -- Career 80.6% from FT line (#7 all-time.)

Defensive monster who absolutely shut down Larry Johnson (in a game where he played all 40 minutes!) and many others.

2460 points (#3 all-time.)
1149 Rebounds (#3 all-time.)
273 Asists
243 Steals (#5 all-time and second to Battier among non-guards)
145 Blocks (#5 all-time)

[sagegrouse]

Do you think Laettner was the best ever at Duke?

Yup, no question. His college career is in the same league as Russell, Alcindor, and Walton: best player on a team with multiple championships. And that was the consensus in the poll some years ago (whose thread I cannot find) of the top 25 college players all-time. Laettner was somewhere around 10-12, although the poll was typically flawed in mixing up college and NBA careers. Laettner was behind Jordan IIRC, whose college career cannot be compared with Christian's. And, of course, Pistol Pete, who never won anything but is the all-time scoring leader, was in the top five.

If Brand had stayed four years, or if JWill had stayed for another year with great results on the court, then the answer may have been different. Kudos to Grant and Bobby, of course, but Laettner was the star of those two NC teams.

sagegrouse

[LaettnerWannabe]

In my opinion, yes Laettner is Duke's best player. There have been some who have been more talented and some who have went on to better pro careers. But when it comes to their time at Duke, I think Laettner tops them all. I also believe that he is the player that most fans, casual and hardcore, associate with Duke. To some people, that's a negative. Not to me though. I still think about his strut across the court during the 2007 ACC Basketball Legends induction ceremony and blowing a kiss to all his "fans." Awesome.

[superdave]

Only player EVER to start in 4 Final Fours.


Even a few of my UNC friends recognize him as the best college player in the modern era.

What is the list of players he beat down in his college career?
Larry Johnson
Alonzo Mourning
Shaq (twice)
Chris Webber/Juwan Howard

[4decadedukie]

Laettner is the best college player of all time. The reason it starts with K, K carried Duke to the highest level. If my memory serves me correctly, Duke didnt win a title until K and Laettner?

Let me make sure I correctly understand your thesis; you indicate that the greatest college basketball player ever, necessarily had to play on a National Championship team. Could you please explain that rationale?

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Laettner is the best college player of all time. The reason it starts with K, K carried Duke to the highest level. If my memory serves me correctly, Duke didnt win a title until K and Laettner?
Ah, it was Coach Bubas whose teams made us expect to go to the Final Four.

A strong foundation is part of every dynasty.

[3rd Dukie]

I'd put Art Heyman up there for the title of Mr. Intensity. If you've ever seen that dark look he had when he was about to drive to the basket or start off on a shooting binge, you'd never forget it.

Maybe another reason for some to love Artie and what he did for Duke is that Vic Bubas took him away from Carolina. Some of that bad blood remains even today.

If my math is correct, this is my 50th year of following Duke hoops.
I was formulating my response when I saw this post.

I think Heyman was more like Christian than other Duke player I can recall.

Devil in the Blue Dress says it all with the "dark look" comment. In March of '63, at his final home game against UNC with Billy C., Artie scored 40+ (a career high as I recall), and he definitely had that look. I was fortunate enough to be in attendance that day.

Good call, Devil!

[lotusland]

Laettner is the all time best Duke player without question. He was an absolute killer. He put up the stats, won the championships and made big plays in big games. Grant was a Scotty Thurmond prayer from challenging Laettner but even so I think Laettner is tops.

Championships make a huge difference. Dan Marino was a great QB but not a champion.

[CBDUKE]

If my math is correct, this is my 50th year of following Duke hoops.
I was formulating my response when I saw this post.

I think Heyman was more like Christian than other Duke player I can recall.

Devil in the Blue Dress says it all with the "dark look" comment. In March of '63, at his final home game against UNC with Billy C., Artie scored 40+ (a career high as I recall), and he definitely had that look. I was fortunate enough to be in attendance that day.

Good call, Devil!

Having followed Duke basketball for a little over 50 years, I would have to put Heyman and Christian one and two. Heyman only had 3 years of varsity ball and look at his stats. His intensity was next to none.

Add to that 40 point game against UNC 23 rebounds (I think that is right) and at only 6' 5".

[killerleft]

Yes.

Only player EVER to start in 4 Final Fours.

The Shot. One of many clutch performances.

#1 3-pt shot accuracy all time Duke school history: 48.5%

Rediculously efficient shooting %: Frosh: 72.3, Soph: 51.1, Jr.: 57.5, Sr.: 57.5, Career: 57.4% (#4 all-time with more than twice the attempts of anyone above him.)

#1 Duke all time FT made: 713 -- Career 80.6% from FT line (#7 all-time.)

Defensive monster who absolutely shut down Larry Johnson (in a game where he played all 40 minutes!) and many others.

2460 points (#3 all-time.)
1149 Rebounds (#3 all-time.)
273 Asists
243 Steals (#5 all-time and second to Battier among non-guards)
145 Blocks (#5 all-time)hose a

I personally don't consider Laettner the best college player of all time. But you haven't even scratched the surface in regards to Laettner's stats. His NCAA tournament stats and great performances are second to nobody's. Laettner's statistics certainly suggest that he is one of the top five college performers of all-time, which is supercalifragilisticexpealidocious!

[CharlestonDevil]

Laettner is the all time best Duke player without question. He was an absolute killer. He put up the stats, won the championships and made big plays in big games. Grant was a Scotty Thurmond prayer from challenging Laettner but even so I think Laettner is tops.

Championships make a huge difference. Dan Marino was a great QB but not a champion.

Not suprisingly my tarheel "associates" (not friends!) all claim that Michael Jordan was the greatest college basketball player of all time. So coming from them it must be true and no further discussion is needed.

However, Laettner not only had the stats, the wins, and the titles to prove his case, he also had the persona and iconic stature by the time he left worthy of being the greatest player in college basketball history.

2 titles, 4 Final Fours, 2 iconic Tourney buzzer beaters, the records, a retired jersey at Duke, and oh yeah the defining moment in all of college basketball...

[jipops]

greatest clutch player ever at Duke - absolutely.

greatest winner ever at Duke - arguably yes.

greatest player ever at Duke - in my opinion, no. But he has a lot of argument in his favor.

[uh_no]

Christian Laettner entered the HOF

The national team was inducted....CL was a member of the team....that does not mean CL is in the HOF

[Orange&BlackSheep]

Yup, no question. His college career is in the same league as Russell, Alcindor, and Walton: best player on a team with multiple championships. And that was the consensus in the poll some years ago (whose thread I cannot find) of the top 25 college players all-time. Laettner was somewhere around 10-12, although the poll was typically flawed in mixing up college and NBA careers. Laettner was behind Jordan IIRC, whose college career cannot be compared with Christian's. And, of course, Pistol Pete, who never won anything but is the all-time scoring leader, was in the top five.

If Brand had stayed four years, or if JWill had stayed for another year with great results on the court, then the answer may have been different. Kudos to Grant and Bobby, of course, but Laettner was the star of those two NC teams.

sagegrouse

I just don't think the guy that missed those free throws against Indiana gets to be put on the same level as Christian. JayWill ... all-time Duke great ... no Laettner IMHO.

And let us all not forget that Laettner was an NBA all-star before he began to be beset by injuries. His pro career would have shone much brighter otherwise.

[Vincetaylor]

The national team was inducted....CL was a member of the team....that does not mean CL is in the HOF

CL was inducted into the Collegiate HOF on his own. He is without a doubt the most accomplished Duke player ever. Coach K always says that Grant Hill was the best player he ever had and I think his NBA career demonstrates that.

[fuse]

Let's not confuse favorite and best ever.

I put my money where my mouth is at the first Coach K charity dinner and auction when I was the sole bidder for the Laettner autographed Wizards jersey. (What was I thinking? Not at all a good investment other than the money donated towards the Emily K center.)

I have a lot of favorite Duke players but in my memory no one tops Laettner in a Duke uniform.

-g

[jv001]

Christian Laettner was the best Duke player I've seen play and I've seen many. Grant, Heyman, Mullins, Shane, J-Will, and Hurley are a few I put up there with the best. As far as college players, Christian and David Thompson were the two best as far as I'm concerned. Go Duke!

[uh_no]

CL was inducted into the Collegiate HOF on his own.

maybe i should click links before posting.....

[weezie]

Laettner....still THE MAN!
And looks fantastic I might add :cool:

[tylervinyard]

I know this thread's about Laettner, but does anyone understand why David Thompson is only now entering into the NCB HOF? Shouldn't he have entered a long, long time ago considering people call him arguably the best player ever to play basketball?

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I know this thread's about Laettner, but does anyone understand why David Thompson is only now entering into the NCB HOF? Shouldn't he have entered a long, long time ago considering people call him arguably the best player ever to play basketball?
David Thompson was inducted in the founding class in 2006. http://collegebasketballexperience.com/inductees.aspx?class=founding

[MB in MD]

Yup, no question. His college career is in the same league as Russell, Alcindor, and Walton


I agree. These are the guys that I would put in my top tier of all-time college players, and would add Thompson, Oscar and Pistol Pete and maybe one or two others. To me Laettner is right in that conversation. (interesting question as to who I would leave out to make a top 5).

But as good as Heyman, or Groat, or Hill or anyone else you might think might be a candidate for best-ever-at-Duke might have been, would you really put any of those in that list? And if not, how can you say that he was better than Laettner?

[LSanders]

Never saw Heyman. Other than the possibility of Heyman, has Duke ever had a guy more ready to rip your heart out and stomp on it?

Even that "stomp" on the KY player who'd been grabbing, hitting, and holding him all night. To me, that was a thing of beauty. NO ONE was ever going to intimidate Laettner - EVER!

Grant may have been the best all-around ... J Will the most explosive ... Shane the most cerebral and best communicator ... But, talent, nerves of steel, and killer instinct - Christian was truly amazing.

[DevilWearsPrada]

I absolutely love Christian!!! One of Duke's greatest players!!!

I also think Johnny Dawkins was also!!! And Grant Hill!

And Shane Battier (Who's your Daddy?) Love Shane and J Will!!!!!

When I was younger, I loved Tate Armstrong and Mike Gminski!!


Before, those days, I just have to read others comments.

Christian holds alot of records! But I have several favorites. He is so worthy of all his accolades. Congrats to CL!

[dukeballboy88]

Let me make sure I correctly understand your thesis; you indicate that the greatest college basketball player ever, necessarily had to play on a National Championship team. Could you please explain that rationale?

Its only 1 reason why people play the game at this level. Yeah I go to the why because I love it but the next level play the game to win. You can not put a player with no rings over a player with multiple or just 1 ring even. YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!

Laettner was the best player on a great team and he put up numbers along the way. In 92, Duke had to play with out Hurley and Grant for a few weeks but didnt miss a beat because Laettner was there. In the game against Kentucky when he hit the shot, the dude didnt miss a shot from the field and from the line and history shows Duke needed every one of them to win. This shouldnt even be a debate.

[tylervinyard]

David Thompson was inducted in the founding class in 2006. http://collegebasketballexperience.com/inductees.aspx?class=founding

Thanks! I guess the articles I was reading had it wrong too.

[kybluedevil]

Laettner, outside of Duke, will always be linked to the foot-stomping of Aminu Timberlake at The Spectrum, 1992. This was 100% classless, from a supposedly "All-American".

This was pivotal for Duke: They went from being the lovable underdog that slayed the Beast (1991 UNLV), to being the most reviled team for 2 decades. We can thank Laettner for every negative stereotype.

[Duke4Ever32]

Laettner, outside of Duke, will always be linked to the foot-stomping of Aminu Timberlake at The Spectrum, 1992. This was 100% classless, from a supposedly "All-American".

This was pivotal for Duke: They went from being the lovable underdog that slayed the Beast (1991 UNLV), to being the most reviled team for 2 decades. We can thank Laettner for every negative stereotype.

Seriously?? It's my perception that this incident has been pretty much universally forgotten outside of Duke. At a minimum, it can hardly be labelled the reason Duke is allegedly the most reviled team for 2 decades. Unparalleled success had a lot to do with that.

Moreover, the "stomp" was hardly that. There was no way that was intended to cause harm, and even Aminu got up laughing about it with a smile on his face. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Seriously?? It's my perception that this incident has been pretty much universally forgotten outside of Duke. At a minimum, it can hardly be labelled the reason Duke is allegedly the most reviled team for 2 decades. Unparalleled success had a lot to do with that.

Moreover, the "stomp" was hardly that. There was no way that was intended to cause harm, and even Aminu got up laughing about it with a smile on his face. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

Agree and disagree. Stomp had little to do with all the Duke hate in the last 2 decades. Also agree that Laettner didn't intend to harm. However, I disagree with you about the severity of the stomp. It was clearly a) unsportsmanlike, b) intentional, c) an incredible cheap shot from an All-American, and d) not what Duke is about. If I were a Kentucky fan in 1992, I would be furious that Laettner wasn't ejected. I don't think the stomp taints Laettner's college profile, but it was an incredibly classless act from an otherwise classy guy.

[Duke4Ever32]

Agree and disagree. Stomp had little to do with all the Duke hate in the last 2 decades. Also agree that Laettner didn't intend to harm. However, I disagree with you about the severity of the stomp. It was clearly a) unsportsmanlike, b) intentional, c) an incredible cheap shot from an All-American, and d) not what Duke is about. If I were a Kentucky fan in 1992, I would be furious that Laettner wasn't ejected. I don't think the stomp taints Laettner's college profile, but it was an incredibly classless act from an otherwise classy guy.

I agree that it was unsportsmanlike, intentional, and a cheap shot, but I wouldn't call it a stomp. Stomp is defined as "to tread or trample heavily or violently on". I wouldn't characterize it that way, but your mileage may vary.

[lotusland]

Seriously?? It's my perception that this incident has been pretty much universally forgotten outside of Duke. At a minimum, it can hardly be labelled the reason Duke is allegedly the most reviled team for 2 decades. Unparalleled success had a lot to do with that.

Moreover, the "stomp" was hardly that. There was no way that was intended to cause harm, and even Aminu got up laughing about it with a smile on his face. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

Agree. I have a friend from KY who is a die-hard Kentucky fan so I think KYBluedevil may have a somewhat skewed viewpoint. Kentucky fans hate Laettner and Duke intensely b/c of the stomp and the shot but outside of Kentucky it’s almost forgotten. I would call it more of a poke than a stomp and Timberlake wasn’t injured so the only advantage was that KY got free throws and the ball from the technical. For that reason and b/c Laettner COULD have been ejected It was a dumb move but Kentucky fans say he should have been ejected and so the outcome is not legitimate since Laettner should not have been in the game to hit the shot. The refs evidently saw it as poor sportsmanship but not an attempt to injure. I think calling a technical without ejecting Laettner in that situation was the right call but it is debatable so clearly it was a dumb move as Laettner himself later admitted. It is an example of the “fire” that made Laettner great though. He was a bit nasty!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AwYVTB2rZw

Kentucky fans should concentrate more on why they neither put a man on the ball nor double teamed Laettner who was 9 for 9 in the game at that time. It looks like they were trying to protect the basket from a tip-in play with an extra man under the basket instead but with time to catch and shoot you gotta keep it out of Laettner’s hands. IMO you either put a big on the in-bounds player or front Laettner with the extra man. Kentucky did neither:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAxD2ksEa5s

Sorry to hijack the thread but what memories!

[lotusland]

I don't think the stomp taints Laettner's college profile, but it was an incredibly classless act from an otherwise classy guy.

Laettner was nasty and arrogant so classy might not be the best description. Hurley and Hill have as much as said the Laettner was nearly intolerable as a teamate but a great player and leader on the court. Ask Cherokee Parks how classy Laettner was. I think all those guys would admit that he was the man on those teams and gave them some necessary swagger and toughness to win close games. Laettner knew how good he was and he expected to win.

[Duke: A Dynasty]

Its only 1 reason why people play the game at this level. Yeah I go to the why because I love it but the next level play the game to win. You can not put a player with no rings over a player with multiple or just 1 ring even. YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!

Laettner was the best player on a great team and he put up numbers along the way. In 92, Duke had to play with out Hurley and Grant for a few weeks but didnt miss a beat because Laettner was there. In the game against Kentucky when he hit the shot, the dude didnt miss a shot from the field and from the line and history shows Duke needed every one of them to win. This shouldnt even be a debate.

This statement is true in a sense but flawed as well. Yes you look at champoinships when talking about great players but they have to have great players with them as well. Christian might not have ever won NC without the supporting cast he had. And since JJ never won a NC that means he should not be mentioned as a great Duke player? I don't think so, championships should define a coach and team but not a player. Greatest players it goes beyond just stats and wins, I don't think there is a definition for greatness... you just know it when you see it.

[superdave]

Laettner was nasty and arrogant so classy might not be the best description. Hurley and Hill have as much as said the Laettner was nearly intolerable as a teamate but a great player and leader on the court. Ask Cherokee Parks how classy Laettner was. I think all those guys would admit that he was the man on those teams and gave them some necessary swagger and toughness to win close games. Laettner knew how good he was and he expected to win.

I have actually had the chance to ask a few Laettner-era Duke players about his reputation and they had nothing but nice things to say about him.

[Duke: A Dynasty]

Laettner was nasty and arrogant so classy might not be the best description. Hurley and Hill have as much as said the Laettner was nearly intolerable as a teamate but a great player and leader on the court. Ask Cherokee Parks how classy Laettner was. I think all those guys would admit that he was the man on those teams and gave them some necessary swagger and toughness to win close games. Laettner knew how good he was and he expected to win.

Um where are you getting this? Yea he had "swagger" and a never lose attitude but arrogant? Nasty? I don't think I can agree with that at all.

[lotusland]

This statement is true in a sense but flawed as well. Yes you look at champoinships when talking about great players but they have to have great players with them as well. Christian might not have ever won NC without the supporting cast he had. And since JJ never won a NC that means he should not be mentioned as a great Duke player? I don't think so, championships should define a coach and team but not a player. Greatest players it goes beyond just stats and wins, I don't think there is a definition for greatness... you just know it when you see it.

JJ didn't excel so much in the tournament games. I think that is a legitimate chink in his armor. If he could have mustered one of his "unconscious" games during one of Duke's tournament losses they might have won a championship. He was a great Duke player player but the biggest difference in their legacies is the Championships. Championships should and do play a role defining a player's legacy.

[DukeDevilDeb]

Laettner, outside of Duke, will always be linked to the foot-stomping of Aminu Timberlake at The Spectrum, 1992. This was 100% classless, from a supposedly "All-American".

This was pivotal for Duke: They went from being the lovable underdog that slayed the Beast (1991 UNLV), to being the most reviled team for 2 decades. We can thank Laettner for every negative stereotype.

I flew into the Cincinnati airport (in Kentucky) shortly after the 1992 win, wearing my Duke basketball jacket. I was almost arrested! :) Everyone was talking about Laettner's stomp.

Fifteen years later, I did the same thing. I was still almost arrested. Everyone was talking about how Laettner had beaten Kentucky. Big difference.

Oh, they still hate Laettner in Kentucky... but it is for being so good, not for the stomp.

[lotusland]

Um where are you getting this? Yea he had "swagger" and a never lose attitude but arrogant? Nasty? I don't think I can agree with that at all.

It is well known.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1140200/5/index.htm

[jv001]

I absolutely love Christian!!! One of Duke's greatest players!!!

I also think Johnny Dawkins was also!!! And Grant Hill!

And Shane Battier (Who's your Daddy?) Love Shane and J Will!!!!!

When I was younger, I loved Tate Armstrong and Mike Gminski!!


Before, those days, I just have to read others comments.

Christian holds alot of records! But I have several favorites. He is so worthy of all his accolades. Congrats to CL!

All the above players and before them: Art Heyman, Jeff Mullins, Jack Marin, Mike Lewis, Bob Verga, Howard Hurt and more. Go Duke!

[Duke: A Dynasty]

JJ didn't excel so much in the tournament games. I think that is a legitimate chink in his armor. If he could have mustered one of his "unconscious" games during one of Duke's tournament losses they might have won a championship. He was a great Duke player player but the biggest difference in their legacies is the Championships. Championships should and do play a role defining a player's legacy.

Yes you are correct but I think it should not be a big deciding factor. Maybe if JJ's senior year they had an elite pg that could create better or another scoring option other than Sheldon then he would not have had to worry about dropping 20 or more every night to win. Those guys didn't win the NC's the team did. I just think NC's should be the last thing considered since one player can't do it alone.

[Duke: A Dynasty]

It is well known.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1140200/5/index.htm

Huh? Do you mean that he had swagger and a strong desire to win? Or that he was nasty and arrogant? Sorry im confused. :confused:

[superdave]

It is well known.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1140200/5/index.htm

The best response to this is the following:

National Champion 1991, 1992
Tournament MOP 1991
Only player to start 4 Final Fours
All-time leading scorer NCAA tournament history.

For all the haters out there, think on that. Or as Dickie V would say "What's not to love!?"

[lotusland]

I have actually had the chance to ask a few Laettner-era Duke players about his reputation and they had nothing but nice things to say about him.

I'm not an insider but I have spoken to folks who knew Laettner personally. I don't think it is very controversial to say that he was arrogant and nasty. A couple minutes of googling:

• COLLEGE BASKETBALL; Hurley Just Throws Passes, Not Barbs
BY MALCOLM MORAN,
At the end of Bobby Hurley's junior season, another year that ended with a championship at stake, the most outstanding player of the national collegiate basketball tournament wore a baseball hat backwards. And when Hurley was asked to offer a critique of Christian Laettner's mistake-filled first half in the 71-51 championship-game victory over Michigan, Duke Coach Mike Krzyzewski turned to the player who, as a freshman, had heard the worst of Laettner's blunt criticisms. "Here's your chance, Bobby," Krzyzewski said.
April 7, 1992
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1992-03-31/sports/1992091067_1_laettner-hurley-duke/2

Said Laettner: "On every team, all the players don't have to get along. The most important thing a team can do is win."
"We get along better than we used to on the court," Hurley said last week. "Off the court, he's not one of my better friends."
http://network.yardbarker.com/nba/article_external/grant_hill_confirms_it_christian_laettner_is_a_jer k/543254
but nothing topped what Hill confirmed about former Duke teammate Christian Laettner: He’s just a big, pompous jerk.
According to Hill, Laettner spent his college years bullying his teammates, including former all-everything point guard Bobby Hurley, and would be a perfect candidate for his own reality show. Possibly even a show where he travels through Kentucky making fun of the natives. Hill thinks he’d be a natural for it. Why?
“Laettner is a little bit of a jerk,” Hill said. “And I mean that in a nice way.”
DP: Why was he such a jerk, even to his own teammates?
GH: Everything was a competition. He liked to get under people's skin. We had a great group of guys and we all liked each other, but Laettner was an I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.. He would pick fights with guys, like a big bully. But it would carry over onto the court. And he was so good, so competitive.

[lotusland]

Huh? Do you mean that he had swagger and a strong desire to win? Or that he was nasty and arrogant? Sorry im confused. :confused:

Both and I loved him for it.

[Duke: A Dynasty]

The best response to this is the following:

National Champion 1991, 1992
Tournament MOP 1991
Only player to start 4 Final Fours
All-time leading scorer NCAA tournament history.

For all the haters out there, think on that. Or as Dickie V would say "What's not to love!?"

Im not saying he is not the greatest because I beleive he is without a doubt the greatest but those first 3 you list should not be considered unless you are tuck between 2 players and need a tie breaker. Its like I said greatness can only be seen when you watch them play, not by stats and wins.

[lotusland]

The best response to this is the following:

National Champion 1991, 1992
Tournament MOP 1991
Only player to start 4 Final Fours
All-time leading scorer NCAA tournament history.

For all the haters out there, think on that. Or as Dickie V would say "What's not to love!?"

Agree. I loved Laettner and his nastiness. I think Kyle has similar fire and we saw it when he slapped the ball away from the Clemson player with time winding down when they routed us.

[sagegrouse]

GH: Everything was a competition. He liked to get under people's skin. We had a great group of guys and we all liked each other, but Laettner was an I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.. He would pick fights with guys, like a big bully. But it would carry over onto the court. And he was so good, so competitive.

As Jacqueline Kennedy remarked about the Kennedy clan, "They would turn oil painting into a competition."

sagegrouse

[Duke: A Dynasty]

The best response to this is the following:

National Champion 1991, 1992
Tournament MOP 1991
Only player to start 4 Final Fours
All-time leading scorer NCAA tournament history.

For all the haters out there, think on that. Or as Dickie V would say "What's not to love!?"

Also should note that he was a "stat sheet stuffer". Points, Rebounds, Assists, Blocks... he could do it all.

[dukeballboy88]

Players are judged and always will be judged of how they perform on the biggest stage and no player played better on the biggest stage than Laettner. He was ice water and Grant proved it on Mike and Mike as he co hosted it and talked about what went on in the huddle right before he hit the shot against Kentucky....

K said, "Grant can you make the pass?" Grant said, " Yes!" K then turned to Christian and said "Christian, can you make the shot?" Grant then said Christian was calm as ever looked at coach and said, "If Grant makes the pass, Ill make the shot!" To then go out and do it, its simply ICE WATER. I get chills thinking about it!

JJ was great but I cant even put JJ in the top 5. Hurley or Hill would have to be 2nd because Grant Hill put the team on his back his senior year and almost won another championship pertty much by himself and Bobby Hurley hit the biggest shot in Duke basketball history. Heyman, I never got to see him play but I dont think he would even make my top 5.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Players are judged and always will be judged of how they perform on the biggest stage and no player played better on the biggest stage than Laettner. He was ice water and Grant proved it on Mike and Mike as he co hosted it and talked about what went on in the huddle right before he hit the shot against Kentucky....

K said, "Grant can you make the pass?" Grant said, " Yes!" K then turned to Christian and said "Christian, can you make the shot?" Grant then said Christian was calm as ever looked at coach and said, "If Grant makes the pass, Ill make the shot!" To then go out and do it, its simply ICE WATER. I get chills thinking about it!

JJ was great but I cant even put JJ in the top 5. Hurley or Hill would have to be 2nd because Grant Hill put the team on his back his senior year and almost won another championship pertty much by himself and Bobby Hurley hit the biggest shot in Duke basketball history. Heyman, I never got to see him play but I dont think he would even make my top 5.

Given the standards you've outlined, if you look at football players, would you say that Thadeus Lewis was not a great QB because his team didn't win championships? Does the lack of championships reduce the value of his NCAA/ACC records for passing more then 10,000 yards in his career?

[Duke: A Dynasty]

Given the standards you've outlined, if you look at football players, would you say that Thadeus Lewis was not a great QB because his team didn't win championships? Does the lack of championships reduce the value of his NCAA/ACC records for passing more then 10,000 yards in his career?

And Trent Dilfer was a better NFL qb than Dan Marino as well since Marino never won a superbowl.

[Monmouth77]

A couple of points missing from this discussion:

(1) Laettner did not just start in four Final Fours, he literally willed his team to two of them: Duke does not make the 1990 or 1992 Final Four without last second game winning shots in overtime in the East Regional Final by Christian Laettner (against UConn (1990) and UK (1992)).

(2) Laettner played during the era that represents close to the high-water mark for competition in NCAA basketball (before players really left early for the NBA). Here is a short list of players he played against (and outplayed) at various points in college: Shaq, Chris Webber, Larry Johnson, Alonzo Mourning. Just try to imagine Singler or Mason Plumlee matched up against these guys in the paint, and you will have an improved sense of Laettner's accomplishments in his time.

[sagegrouse]

And Trent Dilfer was a better NFL qb than Dan Marino as well since Marino never won a superbowl.

No, but the the argument is about "the all-time best." I think the all-time best QB list includes those who won one or more Superbowls, and I think the absence of one hurts Marino's chances. Lessee, .... who are the top all-time NFL QBs? You gotta start with Starr, Bradshaw, Unitas, Brady, P. Manning. And then maybe guys like Marino, Fran Tarkenton and Jurgenson get considered. No, Dilfer isn't on the list.

If you go by stats -- then Pete Maravich is the best that ever lived. But he played on mediocre teams and went to the NIT only once. He's not on my list because basketball is a team game.

sagegrouse

[kybluedevil]

Seriously?? It's my perception that this incident has been pretty much universally forgotten outside of Duke. At a minimum, it can hardly be labelled the reason Duke is allegedly the most reviled team for 2 decades. Unparalleled success had a lot to do with that.

Moreover, the "stomp" was hardly that. There was no way that was intended to cause harm, and even Aminu got up laughing about it with a smile on his face. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

As a Duke fan growing up in Kentucky, I am tired of defending what he did. His actions do not embody Coach K or what Duke represents. What he did to Aminu will never be forgotten to UK homers, and others. (Interestingly, no one in KY mentions what Magliore did to Wojo in '98.)

If we're talking about 'greatest' players, we should also take into account character. CL has been documented saying he was essentially mad that UK was giving Duke a fight, and that's how he wanted to send a message. It's like the Pete Rose argument. Sure, he can get into the HOF for his stats, but we shouldn't forget his actions

[superdave]

It's just funny to me that Michael Jordan is celebrated for having such a competitive streak and for it making teammates mad from time to time (Cartwright, Bill). But on a Duke board people are taking St. Christian Laettner to task for it!!

The man won us back to back titles and got inducted in the CBHOF yesterday! If his personality had anything to do with that winning edge, then I celebrate it!

[SCMatt33]

If we're talking about 'greatest' players, we should also take into account character. CL has been documented saying he was essentially mad that UK was giving Duke a fight, and that's how he wanted to send a message. It's like the Pete Rose argument. Sure, he can get into the HOF for his stats, but we shouldn't forget his actions

I totally agree, but a single on court incident does not tarnish a persons character. Pete Rose is a pretty bad comparison because what he did was the cardinal sin in baseball. His actions were worthy of a lifetime ban, whereas if that game had been played today, the play would have been reviews, he would have been ejected and likely suspended for the next game (had Duke still won). There are only two ways that I can see a player's legacy tarnished by character. One if the crime is so great that it dominates his story (a la Rose). The other is if the behavior is chronic, like Terrel Owens. I don't think Laettner qualifies for either.

On another note, I think that it is both a mountain and a molehill. It is clearly a mountain in Kentucky, so I fully understand your frustration at the issue, but the country as a whole will likely remember Laettner for the shot and for being a relative bust in the NBA (I know he had a better career than most think, but the reputation is what it is).

[KenTankerous]

Here's some Laettner love from ESPN's greatest Spectrum moments:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=5842837

And as a UK fan turned to the brighter, righter shade of blue by my ladylove Dukie, it still pains me to watch it...

[superdave]

As a Duke fan growing up in Kentucky, I am tired of defending what he did. His actions do not embody Coach K or what Duke represents. What he did to Aminu will never be forgotten to UK homers, and others. (Interestingly, no one in KY mentions what Magliore did to Wojo in '98.)

If we're talking about 'greatest' players, we should also take into account character. CL has been documented saying he was essentially mad that UK was giving Duke a fight, and that's how he wanted to send a message. It's like the Pete Rose argument. Sure, he can get into the HOF for his stats, but we shouldn't forget his actions

Why would you defend anything to a Kentucky fan? That program is turning into the cesspool of NCAA basketball. They are a part of the Situational Ethics Conference and their coach vacated his last Final Four before fleeing to UK where he quickly put graduation and academics on the back burner. We could get into their past history of violations and "struggle" to integrate, but why bother?

Let them hate!

[lotusland]

No, but the the argument is about "the all-time best." I think the all-time best QB list includes those who won one or more Superbowls, and I think the absence of one hurts Marino's chances. Lessee, .... who are the top all-time NFL QBs? You gotta start with Starr, Bradshaw, Unitas, Brady, P. Manning. And then maybe guys like Marino, Fran Tarkenton and Jurgenson get considered. No, Dilfer isn't on the list.

If you go by stats -- then Pete Maravich is the best that ever lived. But he played on mediocre teams and went to the NIT only once. He's not on my list because basketball is a team game.

sagegrouse

I would add Montana to your example. Stats don't always tell the story either. Dan Fouts rang up a ton more yardage and TDs in his carreer under Air Coryell than Bradshaw did in the Steelers run-first offense. But Fouts never hit Swanny for a 69 yard, game winning TD just a fraction of a second before being knocked unconscious by DD Lewis in Superbowl 10. Maybe if Fouts had the Steelers personel around him he could have won championships but he didn't prove he could star in the the big games during his career. As a result he's considered by most to have been a good but not all time great NFL QB.

Oddly running backs don't seem to be judged in quite the same way. For running backs the all time great list more resembles the all time yardage leaders. OJ is an all time great without a Championship and I don't think Sweetness would be held in less regard without the Bear's Superbowl win at the end of his career. To me Payton was the greatest no matter how many Superbowls Emmit Smith won with the Cowboys. No doubt some older folks would say Jim Brown is the greatest.

For being the ACC scoring leader up until he who shall not be named surpassed him, JJ should be considered a great college player but not in the top 10 like Laettner and the primary difference is Championships.

[sagegrouse]

I would add Montana to your example. Stats don't always tell the story either. Dan Fouts rang up a ton more yardage and TDs in his carreer under Air Coryell than Bradshaw did in the Steelers run-first offense. But Fouts never hit Swanny for a 69 yard, game winning TD just a fraction of a second before being knocked unconscious by DD Lewis in Superbowl 10. Maybe if Fouts had the Steelers personel around him he could have won championships but he didn't prove he could star in the the big games during his career. As a result he's considered by most to have been a good but not all time great NFL QB.

Oddly running backs don't seem to be judged in quite the same way. For running backs the all time great list more resembles the all time yardage leaders. OJ is an all time great without a Championship and I don't think Sweetness would be held in less regard without the Bear's Superbowl win at the end of his career. To me Payton was the greatest no matter how many Superbowls Emmit Smith won with the Cowboys. No doubt some older folks would say Jim Brown is the greatest.

For being the ACC scoring leader up until he who shall not be named surpassed him, JJ should be considered a great college player but not in the top 10 like Laettner and the primary difference is Championships.

All good points, and I forgot about Joe Montana as I was dashing off my list.

sagegrouse

[superdave]

I would add Montana to your example. Stats don't always tell the story either. Dan Fouts rang up a ton more yardage and TDs in his carreer under Air Coryell than Bradshaw did in the Steelers run-first offense. But Fouts never hit Swanny for a 69 yard, game winning TD just a fraction of a second before being knocked unconscious by DD Lewis in Superbowl 10. Maybe if Fouts had the Steelers personel around him he could have won championships but he didn't prove he could star in the the big games during his career. As a result he's considered by most to have been a good but not all time great NFL QB.

Oddly running backs don't seem to be judged in quite the same way. For running backs the all time great list more resembles the all time yardage leaders. OJ is an all time great without a Championship and I don't think Sweetness would be held in less regard without the Bear's Superbowl win at the end of his career. To me Payton was the greatest no matter how many Superbowls Emmit Smith won with the Cowboys. No doubt some older folks would say Jim Brown is the greatest.

For being the ACC scoring leader up until he who shall not be named surpassed him, JJ should be considered a great college player but not in the top 10 like Laettner and the primary difference is Championships.

Randy Moss has not won a Super Bowl either, right? But if you look at career stats he's clearly the 2nd greatest WR behind Rice and #3 is not that close. It is true how QBs are considered differently, but it seems fair. They have their fate in their hands.

Post season success is of utmost importance to me when considering a player's place in history at Duke. Even guys who lost in the FF or title game get elevated a little because of it, whereas guys who went down too often in the Sweet 16 get deflated a little.

Laettner spoiled us!

[PADukeMom]

A whole lotta love to Christian but to put a label on someone as the best ever Duke player...can't do it...too much potential greatness out ther right now & in the future.

He most definately ranks right up there but if I had to choose someone, it's got to be Battier...offensive & defensive monster!

[alteran]

Agree and disagree. Stomp had little to do with all the Duke hate in the last 2 decades. Also agree that Laettner didn't intend to harm. However, I disagree with you about the severity of the stomp. It was clearly a) unsportsmanlike, b) intentional, c) an incredible cheap shot from an All-American, and d) not what Duke is about. If I were a Kentucky fan in 1992, I would be furious that Laettner wasn't ejected. I don't think the stomp taints Laettner's college profile, but it was an incredibly classless act from an otherwise classy guy.

I always though of it as more stupid than anything else. Laettner essentially told the world-- and specifically Aminu Timberlake-- that yes, the cheap shots from Timberlake and Kentucky's general tenacity were getting to him, and only inspired the Wildcats more.

Dumb, dumb move.

One of the things that makes Laettner awesome is that even though Kentucky clearly had pushed him into the wrong mental place, he STILL went on to have the perfect night.

[alteran]

Players are judged and always will be judged of how they perform on the biggest stage and no player played better on the biggest stage than Laettner. He was ice water...

This. Nothing to add.

[AZLA]

Duke fans call it a tap
Kentucky fans call it stomp
Referees called it a technical

That's all it was

[alteran]

As a Duke fan growing up in Kentucky, I am tired of defending what he did. His actions do not embody Coach K or what Duke represents. What he did to Aminu will never be forgotten to UK homers, and others. (Interestingly, no one in KY mentions what Magliore did to Wojo in '98.)

4 words-- GET OUT OF KENTUCKY.

;)

Seriously, if it hadn't been for (trigger echo effect) The Stomp (end echo effect) the rabid denizens of Kentucky would have latched onto something else to complain about. They hate Duke for one reason-- The Shot.

They can rationalize all they want, but we all know it's The Shot.

Of all the things I dislike about Kentucky fans, they're visceral hatred of us is only about 6 or 7 on the list. Frankly, if Hayward's shot had fallen this year, THAT would be OUR "The Shot" nightmare, and Matt Howard's forearm shiver to Kyle on that play would be The Shiver, and about four years from now after seeing the replay a gazillion times we'd probably be ... well, not quite as unhinged as they, but we'd certainly be really, really sick of seeing it.

[killerleft]

As a Duke fan growing up in Kentucky, I am tired of defending what he did. His actions do not embody Coach K or what Duke represents. What he did to Aminu will never be forgotten to UK homers, and others. (Interestingly, no one in KY mentions what Magliore did to Wojo in '98.)

If we're talking about 'greatest' players, we should also take into account character. CL has been documented saying he was essentially mad that UK was giving Duke a fight, and that's how he wanted to send a message. It's like the Pete Rose argument. Sure, he can get into the HOF for his stats, but we shouldn't forget his actions

Ah, The Stomp! You can remember it however you want. Like popcorn reminds people of the movie theater, The Stomp brings to my mind a fabulous national championship run for Duke.

Pete Rose? How the dickens did he get into this thread? Oh, yeah. Foot on the chest = gambling, gambling on baseball, lying about it for years... I definitely get it now!:rolleyes:

The only reason anybody remembers the play is because Aminu's daddy is a famous artist!; Wojo spent four whole years trying (and sometimes succeeding) to step on people's feet!! String him up!

[G man]

1670

Looked like he was having a good time. Took some time to sign autographs and take pictures with fans. He was great, I was surprised because he walked right through the middle of a ton of Duke and K State fans.

[jv001]

1670

Looked like he was having a good time. Took some time to sign autographs and take pictures with fans. He was great, I was surprised because he walked right through the middle of a ton of Duke and K State fans.

While waiting for my wife to come out of Walmart, I heard Coach K's interview with Christian. Some comments from Coach K: He mentioned a game Duke played in NY where Christian had many friends in attendance. At the half Laettner had not scored. Coach K told him he was playing a very good all around game, but shoot the **** ball. Christian told Coach K that he was happy with helping his fellow players show his home town friends just how good they were. Coach K said that most people didn't know that side of Christian. He said that Christian may have been the best college basketball player ever. The year he was national player of the year, Mourning and Shaq had great years as well, but not as good as Christian. As for me, Christian was the greatest Blue Devil of all time. And I've seen many. Go Duke!

[Waynne]

I agree Christian was the best player ever at Duke. His stats and the team's wins while he was on the court pretty much nail that down. Close behind IMO are Art Heyman and Shane Battier, and after them is a long list of GREAT players. Being a Duke fan is a very good thing.:)

[uh_no]

an otherwise classy guy.

Maybe I missed something, but every time I see him on tv in an interview, he always seems to be kind of a jerk....

[DevilWearsPrada]

Maybe I missed something, but every time I see him on tv in an interview, he always seems to be kind of a jerk....

What kind of JERK? Do you mean arrogant? or Entitled? Or Snob? Just wondering what kind of Jerk, and how that is implied in a TV interview. Perhaps, I have not seen those interviews.

I think Christian was one of the best players ever to suit up in a Duke Uniform!!!

And as always,
Go Duke!!!!

[Faison1]

Maybe I missed something, but every time I see him on tv in an interview, he always seems to be kind of a jerk....

I just had a drink with a buddy the other night, who relayed that his buddy went out to the Kansas City games and ran into CL in the Arena. Apparently Laettner stopped to talk and BS for quite a while. Was totally cool to a complete stranger.

I prefer to believe that type of stuff more than what the media spins him to be.

[DevilWearsPrada]

I just had a drink with a buddy the other night, who relayed that his buddy went out to the Kansas City games and ran into CL in the Arena. Apparently Laettner stopped to talk and BS for quite a while. Was totally cool to a complete stranger.

I prefer to believe that type of stuff more than what the media spins him to be.

HERE HERE!!!! Totally agree!! Media always spins things their way, or whatever way they want too.....

I dont ever recall an interview where CL was a jerk.......... Anyway, glad that CL was on the Duke Team!!!

[jv001]

HERE HERE!!!! Totally agree!! Media always spins things their way, or whatever way they want too.....

I dont ever recall an interview where CL was a jerk.......... Anyway, glad that CL was on the Duke Team!!!

I was able to meet Christian when he played at Duke. One of my best friends was our high school basketball coach. Every year he invited a player from Duke or unc to hold a bb camp at the school(I don't think that's allowed now.) Christian was extremely nice to everyone and he seemed to be a humble person. Certainly not the type person the media makes him out to be. Go Duke!