MBB: Duke 97, Princeton 60 Post Game Thread

[Bob Green]

Discuss the game here. A very nice debut for the 2010-11 Blue Devils.

[Gthoma2a]

I have a feeling that the perma-grin that is on my face right now is not going anywhere anytime soon. We look great! Andre looks to have grown up, Mason is doing pretty well (a few mistakes, but eh, it is early). Hairston looks like he could find a place in the rotation with his pretty good D, but so could Kelly. Nolan looks incredible. Kyle is the leader, but even with him out for a minute or two, we look good. Seth calmed midway during the game. Kyrie showed that he can score, but his ability to control the pace, and lead the offense are his strengths. Oh, and his defense was ridiculous. He was a mad dog out there at times. We have a very good team, though. Anyone else thinking we did well?

Kong, I think that once we calmed down, we played fast, and well, with all lineups.

[Lord Ash]

Not too shabby.

On the plus side... Nolan and Kyle look positively unstoppable. Loved seeing Kyle go into the crowd for the ball.

Kyrie was solid solid solid... he really has great handles and can take it RIGHT at his defender(s) and still score. Very active, long D too.

Really loved seeing Seth get buckets later in the game... during the earlier pieces of the game I wondered if Seth would get his time and make it count, and he did.

Ryan looked very solid... he is a GREAT backup center, and I wonder if he will start at some point this year. Loved him hitting that three.

Glad to see Dre hit a few.

Glad to see Josh and Tyler both get some play, and both look good for the most part.

I liked that we largely kept the pedal down. I don't want to see this team let up at ALL; we need to be used to playing hard on D and on O from our starters down to the 10th guy off the bench, so we need to keep that consistent... even when we are up big, we need to play at max speed so the backups are ready to play at top speed and intensity.

Loved the tribute, and the "safety school" chant:)

On the not-as-plus side...

Dre was a bit quick to shoot at times... however, not sure that is a BAD thing, given how good of a shooter he is.

The Plumbros still have a little work and growth ahead of them. The hands are still a bit suspect, and there were times on D that they (particularly Miles) looked like they got lost. Mason did look like he got more comfortable later on.

Overall a good start... this team has a lot of growing yet to do.

[77devil]

MP shaved the beard. We're doomed.

[superdave]

The Plumbros still have a little work and growth ahead of them. The hands are still a bit suspect, and there were times on D that they (particularly Miles) looked like they got lost. Mason did look like he got more comfortable later on.

Again, I would not worry too much about the Plums on the offensive end - big men dont get good looks against zones unless they are Shaq.

On the defensive end, there's a little too much gambling to reach for steals, block a shot or over-commit when helping and hedging. But it's game #1 and if we learned anything from last year it's that the big men can grow into their roles quite well in 5 months.

[quota]

Only one quibble: we got outrebounded.

Other than that, it was a gem of a game to watch. 53% from 3 and 91% from the free throw line.

This team can shoot.

[Bob Green]

Only one quibble: we got outrebounded.

That will happen a lot this year as we return to a defensive style based on high intensity pressure on the perimeter.

[_TheFakeJWill_]

D looked up and down at times. Over all the Defense looked great but every now and again, especially in the 1st half i seen many easy layups from Princeton. I have to note Kyrie looked like a stud on defense. The Plums have some growing up to do especially Miles IMO. Hairston look really good out there i thought. I can say this with confidence, if Seth and Andre are on we'd be the Lakers :D Ive watched many college games in the last couple days and WOW Duke looks good. GO DUKE!

[Saratoga2]

I just followed on gametracker, so it was hard to get a feel for defense. Clearly we have a lot of scorers. We will give up more points this year, just due to the higher number of possession we get and give. It also seemed that Princeton got more than their share of rebounds.

Will look forward to analysis of those who were able to watch the game real time.

[Cockabeau]

I am officially a believer in TT. I had my doubts but that kid can ball...there is something about him.Mason with 4 assists....wow. Curry isn't really a facilitator but a brilliant shooter and solid handler who can defend also.

[cptnflash]

I hate to be a killjoy, because it's true that our perimeter looks unbelievably awesome, but... I saw the same old Plumlees tonight, and that concerns me greatly. In 17 minutes, Miles had 2 points, 2 rebounds, 3 turnovers, and 3 fouls against Ivy League competition. Mason had a marginally better stat line, but still nothing to write home about. And both appeared to be out of position several times on defense, leading to the only easy buckets Princeton got all night. If they do not improve significantly from here, we will struggle against real competition.

That being said, holy **** is our perimeter good. I love the fact that on Kyrie's first two defensive possessions as a Blue Devil, he managed a block and a steal. He appears to be every bit as good as advertised. We are absolutely lethal from outside. Unguardable in some configurations. And Josh Hairston appears to be the new LT.

Did anyone see a reason to be more optimistic about the Plumlees? I may be suffering from confirmation bias, so please share if you feel differently.

[roywhite]

Great first official game for Kyrie. He is a complete package as a PG...can drive, dish, shoot, pass well overall, hit his FT's, and plays excellent pressure defense.

Loved seeing major improvement in Andre's overall floor game; played good defense, and, yes, he can still hit the 3. Seth looked better in the second half; the ball was moving well and guys were hitting shots.

Small quibble...want to see Mason, Miles, and Ryan clamp down on rebounds; maybe they can channel Zoubs.

The fun has begun.

[Indoor66]

Only one quibble: we got outrebounded.

Other than that, it was a gem of a game to watch. 53% from 3 and 91% from the free throw line.

This team can shoot.

This year you should look at the combination of rebounds and opposing team turnovers to get a feel. You cannot play high risk - high reward defense and also get lots and lots of rebounds. You have to give up something!

[Spam Filter]

I'd worry more about rebounding percentages than number of rebounds, we forced so many turnovers that it would certainly have hurt our total number of defensive rebounds.

I think the only thing that might keep Kyle from winning NPOY will be our depth and our tendency to win a lot of blowouts this year.

This is a game that he could have scored 30, and probably would have were it last year's team, but we have so many weapons that he'll struggle to average more than 16-17 pts per game.

[theAlaskanBear]

Again, I would not worry too much about the Plums on the offensive end - big men dont get good looks against zones unless they are Shaq.

On the defensive end, there's a little too much gambling to reach for steals, block a shot or over-commit when helping and hedging. But it's game #1 and if we learned anything from last year it's that the big men can grow into their roles quite well in 5 months.

Mason in particular show some improvement -- some nice passing; esp that drive and dish to Irving for the 3. Also had a couple of blocks. The Plumlees only had 6 combined attempts for the game, and shot 50%. It's going to be hard for them to stand out scoring-wise in this guard dominant lineup, but the rebounding must definitely improve.

Boy, did Irving look good. Final line: 17pts 9ast 4trb 2stl 1blk. Also, every player off the bench scored tonight, including first Duke points for Curry, Thornton, Hairston. Curry took awhile to get comfortable, but I loved that segment where he hits the baseline 3 from the far side, and on the next trip down he curls to opposite baseline and strokes a 3 there.

[Indoor66]

I'd worry more about rebounding percentages than number of rebounds, we forced so many turnovers that it would certainly have hurt our total number of defensive rebounds.

I think the only thing that might keep Kyle from winning NPOY will be our depth and our tendency to win a lot of blowouts this year.

This is a game that he could have scored 30, and probably would have were it last year's team, but we have so many weapons that he'll struggle to average more than 16-17 pts per game.

I agree with your post - but Kyle is the grease for the wheel. He is the reason it can all happen. He can still win NPOY if Duke goes far - and I expect them to go far.

[Oriole Way]

That will happen a lot this year as we return to a defensive style based on high intensity pressure on the perimeter.

Agreed.

This will happen a lot more now that Duke's defensive emphasis is to create turnovers, and that has been a constant trait of some of Duke's best teams since 1997. It wasn't until the past two seasons, and last season particularly, that Duke became a half-court oriented, superior rebounding team. I believe seeing Duke last season as a great rebounding team will prove to be a brief exception to the norm.

Getting beat on the boards, which will happen regularly going forward against teams with good frontcourts, will not be a problem as long as Duke is forcing turnovers and creating extra possessions for its offense. I have a feeling Coach K will mention this several times this season to the media, including after losses.

[_TheFakeJWill_]

I hate to be a killjoy, because it's true that our perimeter looks unbelievably awesome, but... I saw the same old Plumlees tonight, and that concerns me greatly. In 17 minutes, Miles had 2 points, 2 rebounds, 3 turnovers, and 3 fouls against Ivy League competition. Mason had a marginally better stat line, but still nothing to write home about. And both appeared to be out of position several times on defense, leading to the only easy buckets Princeton got all night. If they do not improve significantly from here, we will struggle against real competition.

That being said, holy **** is our perimeter good. I love the fact that on Kyrie's first two defensive possessions as a Blue Devil, he managed a block and a steal. He appears to be every bit as good as advertised. We are absolutely lethal from outside. Unguardable in some configurations. And Josh Hairston appears to be the new LT.

Did anyone see a reason to be more optimistic about the Plumlees? I may be suffering from confirmation bias, so please share if you feel differently.

All i can say about the Plums is that its the 1st game of the season. You never know if one might explode. Who would have thought that Zouds would be a beast that would be the missing piece to a NC last year. If a plumlee isnt playing well i have faith in Kelly as well. Plus Hairston looks really good also.

[Cockabeau]

Ok...people. time to grasp some fundamental, rudimentary basketball concepts-the pressure man-to-man combined with high volume of 3's=a drop in rebounding numbers.

Our defense was not solid or good-it was superb.

[theAlaskanBear]

I'd worry more about rebounding percentages than number of rebounds, we forced so many turnovers that it would certainly have hurt our total number of defensive rebounds.


Princeton missed 27 shots. Duke grabbed 20 defensive rebounds. A bunch of the guards had 3 and 4 rebounds a piece so it was a team effort.

Duke had 7 offensive boards on 29 misses. I don't know if these are good percentages (what is normal?) or not, but doesn't seem bad at first glance...

[cptnflash]

Not too shabby.
Loved the tribute, and the "safety school" chant:)


Agree about the tribute, but the safety school chant seems misplaced here. If Princeton is a safety school, what is the first choice? I thought the crazies were off base on that one.

[OldPhiKap]

Good first game, and some film for the coaches to use as well. We played a pretty disciplined team, and adjusted to put it away handily.

Kyle, Nolan -- stone cold killers. They look ready to go, and I love Nolan's leadership.

REALLY impressed with Seth's leadership and talking, and he clearly knew how to run the second unit at the end. He showed that he is a first unit talent and will get minutes.

Dre, nice adjustment to make shots.

Inside, I see the potential for Ryan really pushing MPx2. Which is a very good thing.

Kyrie, very understated yet great stat line. Wait until he really kicks it into gear.


So, a bit ragged but understandable. We have a great schedule coming up to test us in a number of ways. I'm really excited to see how it all gels along the way this year.

[OldPhiKap]

Agree about the tribute, but the safety school chant seems misplaced here. If Princeton is a safety school, what is the first choice? I thought the crazies were off base on that one.

Um, Duke ?!?

[Oriole Way]

Agree about the tribute, but the safety school chant seems misplaced here. If Princeton is a safety school, what is the first choice? I thought the crazies were off base on that one.

That's the reason for the chant, it's just trash talking. Everyone knows that Princeton is one of the top 3-5 schools in the country, Crazies were just talking up their own school and putting down the opponent.

It's no different than chanting at an opponent's stud player and telling him he's no good.

[OldPhiKap]

That's the reason for the chant, it's just trash talking. Everyone knows that Princeton is one of the top 3-5 schools in the country, Crazies were just talking up their own school and putting down the opponent.

It's no different than chanting at an opponent's stud player and telling him he's no good.

"Shaq can't slam! Shaq can't slam!"

-- 1990 +/-

[Oriole Way]

By the way, my favorite play of the game might have been Tyler Thorton's steal and layup in the second half. He really read the ball well and covered a ton of ground to make the steal.

I just love Thornton as player and a kid who loves Duke and his team. I really think he can be a starting PG on a championship-caliber team by the time he's a senior, I just hope he sticks around through the parade of NBA-quality guards that will be coming through Durham during his first few seasons.

[MB in MD]

Ok...people. time to grasp some fundamental, rudimentary basketball concepts-the pressure man-to-man combined with high volume of 3's=a drop in rebounding numbers.

Our defense was not solid or good-it was superb.

This was the most gratifying thing to me. Our traditional overplaying man-to-man has always put us at risk for the back door. And today we played perhaps the best system in the universe to exploit the back door, and yet got victimized only rarely. We followed our guys when that was the right thing to do, and, most of the time switched well when it wasn't. If today is an indication, we are ahead of where I'd hoped we'd be on defense.

My only (tiny) negative was that there was a stretch in the first half where we became a jumpshooting team against their zone. We may be a much-better-than-average jumpshooting team, but we are a much, much, better-than-average team when we attack. 97 points on last years #1 points-against team is a great showing.

[dchen09]

Agree about the tribute, but the safety school chant seems misplaced here. If Princeton is a safety school, what is the first choice? I thought the crazies were off base on that one.

lol, relax. It's just a basketball game. It's just to annoy them.

[Dukeface88]

Re Boards: I think this had a lot to do with Kyle being held out due to foul trouble, coupled with the 3-guard sets we were playing against Princeton's zone. It's something to watch going forward, but I don't think there's anything to be concerned about now.

Re Princeton's zone: LOL. I guess that's the last time anyone tries that.

Re the post: The Plumlees still have some work to do on the defensive end, but they're learning. (ETA: Also, keep in mind that backdoor cuts killed us last year; that's an area we've probably improved on already). Their stats would have been much more impressive if we had converted the oops in the first half. I think we'll probably see some flashes early (something like Wake last year) with consistency coming later. I was encouraged by what we saw from Kelly and Hairston (well, except for Kelly's last shot that kept us under the century). Kelly was fighting for rebounds (and winning) and Hairston has some nice hustle plays. Having depth off the bench will make the fouls more bearable.

Re Kyrie: Hey, UNC. This is what a number 1 freshman should look like. Enjoy.

Re everyone else: Nolan and Kyle have picked up right where they left off. Dre looks like he has much improved his handle and off ball movement, but still needs to work on his passing. Seth had some early game jitters, and but brought it in the second half. Thornton's rep as a defensive stopper looks legit.

ETA2: We seem to have answered the "Who takes free throws?" question with "Whoever's on the court".

[ajgoodfella7]

What an awesome sight to see this team pushing the tempo like the good old days.

The only thing I think that can keep this team from being #1 at the end when it counts is the development of our post defense. It is early and it will take some time, but hopefully we can play a little stronger down low, with and without the ball.

Kyrie, Kyle and Nolan were all superb. Particularly impressive were Irving's and Nolan's on the ball defense.

Also I was really happy to see Andre get so much time off the bench and it looks like he has become a much better defensive player.

I was also happy that Seth got a chance to turn it on after the slow offensive start.

Whatever happens from here on out, it should be a fun year.

[cptnflash]

MP shaved the beard. We're doomed.

Compared to Miles, Ryan Kelly had more points, more boards, fewer fouls, and fewer turnovers, all in less minutes. Maybe it's time for Ryan to grow the beard!

According to SCACCHoops.com, the only aspect of the game in which we were beaten was rebounding percentage, on both ends of the floor. I remain very concerned about the Plumlees.

[uh_no]

Agree about the tribute, but the safety school chant seems misplaced here. If Princeton is a safety school, what is the first choice? I thought the crazies were off base on that one.

duke.....and he missed the freethrow...which was all that mattered

[ChillinDuke]

Excellent first game. Very impressive.

We started a little slow/rusty and really adjusted well toward the end of the first half. The second half was all us.

A few things that jumped out at me:

I get the drop in rebounding numbers that people have been pointing out/expecting. But I didn't like the way we rebounded. Particularly, the Plumlees had more than a few plays where they didn't grab the ball strong. I almost liked Ryan's rebounding better than the Plumbros. He just looked stronger going up. Anyone else notice this?

Nolan looked noticeably improved to me. He slashed quite well today and more often than I remember him doing last year. Also finished well near the rim.

Kyrie looked fantastic in his first game.

I liked the look we gave when we ran the offense through a big (Mason or Ryan) at the top of the key. Mason made some nice passes, and Ryan is a threat to shoot from there. Mason did force the issue once or twice, but I thought it was more often than not an effective option and a different look to the offense. Were we doing this to break the zone, though? Or does anyone think this may be in our offensive arsenal throughout the year?

MP1 did not look as improved as I was hoping. Game #1 though, so not looking into this too much.

We also did an excellent job breaking up their back door passes. Historically, I feel like this is something that we have struggled mightily with (at least in the last 3-5 years). I want to say it was Georgetown a few years back that was killing us on back doors. Really liked that we were able to shut many of them down...often even resulting in fast breaks.

Overall, such a great first game against an opponent that is far from irrelevant. So excited the season is here. And can't wait for Tuesday night.

GO DUKE!!!

Edit - Looks like MB in MD beat me to the back door idea.

[roywhite]

Compared to Miles, Ryan Kelly had more points, more boards, fewer fouls, and fewer turnovers, all in less minutes. Maybe it's time for Ryan to grow the beard!

According to SCACCHoops.com, the only aspect of the game in which we were beaten was rebounding percentage, on both ends of the floor. I remain very concerned about the Plumlees.

We'll see; it was the first game.

There were some very impressive performances, which apparently you've chosen to ignore.

[taiw93]

Perhaps the most encouraging thing about this year's team is Kyrie's ability to create easy buckets (like his dish to Nolan late in the first half). We will have plenty of games where we rebound poorly or shoot poorly (though it IS hard to imagine all of our weapons having bad games at once), but the ability to break down a defense for layups never takes a day off.

[Reddevil]

We have been spoiled rotten at the charity stripe with Jon, and JJ. This is a luxury that few teams have ever had. Now, who gets the call in crunch time? Thoughts?

[tylervinyard]

I was impressed with Kyrie's defense. I think he could, given K's coaching, develop into an amazing, amazing pest. He just seems to have an enormous hunger to go along with all of his athletic gifts.

Every time Kyle shot the ball, I thought it was going in. If he hadn't picked up those 4 fouls, he could have scored 30 easily. However, I think it was a blessing in disguise. His foul trouble allowed others to get more game minutes.

Nolan looked as good tonight as he did during the summer in the Pro-AM. He seems to have more hops than his first three years, and his handle has improved so much.

I continue to be impressed with Mason's passing skills. Happy to see Seth get comfortable as the game went along, and Andre looks like a different person than last year or even over the summer. He just seemed bored when I watched him in the Pro-AM. I really like his floater in addition to his sweet jumper. I think Ryan may take away Mile's starting spot eventually. I don't see anyone but Miles losing their starting spot this year, though. Ryan just seems to "get it" more than Miles, although he's obviously much less gifted athletically. Hairston needs to add some weight, especially in his legs. He just seems to be knocked off balance too easily, but I do like his potential. Tyler is going to be great defensively if he ever gets minutes.

I'm not too worried about our rebounding, except maybe that game with Michigan St., who I can see just pounding us on the boards. I'm more worried about the defensive footwork of the Plumlees. I absolutely love that we forced 27 turnovers and scored 97 points on a team like Princeton who historically controls the pace of the game and typically makes smart passes. We didn't get back-doored as much as I thought we would, which I'm very happy about.

All in all a very promising debut!

[uh_no]

We have been spoiled rotten at the charity stripe with Jon, and JJ. This is a luxury that few teams have ever had. Now, who gets the call in crunch time? Thoughts?

seth.....he looked pretty at the line

[camion]

We have been spoiled rotten at the charity stripe with Jon, and JJ. This is a luxury that few teams have ever had. Now, who gets the call in crunch time? Thoughts?

We were 11of 12 tonight and even more heartening is that Kyrie, the guy who will probably be handling the ball at the end, was 6 for 6. I'm fine with any of Kyle, Nolan, Seth, Andre or Kyrie stepping to the line. I might add Ryan Kelly to that list too. We'll see.

And as for my impressions of the game, the first half went about as I expected though we were able to rattle Princeton more than I has anticipated. The second half was... Wow, just Wow. We ran them off of the court.

[BD80]

Mad props to all of those posters who said months ago that Kyle would be playing a lot at the "4." Thank you, thank you. It took all of 5 minutes before it happened, and we played 3 guards most (?) of the game.

Our perimeter players are so good, we will see 3 guards quite a bit with Kyle sliding down low. But I think you will see less and less of it as the post guys get better.

Mason will get the most post minutes for a while - he will be getting all the attention and he will tantalize - having great stretches and horrible stretches. Mason will grow steadier and steadier and be one of our key weapons. I feel a bit bad for Miles because his role has changed each season, and he seems so lost at times. I predict he will have some key games down the stretch and his minutes will grow. Ryan could go either way - I hope he breaks out, but every time think he understands the defense better than any of the other post players - he gets burned on a back door cut.

All three big guys need some serious work on hand strength - way too many rebounds bounce off their hands or are stripped out.

Boy is this going to be a fun team to watch this year!

[BigZ]

I thought Josh was a lot bigger, he looks more like a small forward than a power forward. I thought he was built like Lance but he is def smaller.

[Spy]

Rebounding: Well according to the ESPN box score, we outrebounded Princeton by 1, but that doesn't seem right after watching that game. But if that is incorrect, you have to realize that Princeton has EIGHT players who are 6'8" or over. Thats unheard of, especially for an Ivy League team... they are one of the biggest teams we will play this year.

Kyrie: Outstanding. Automatic from the free-throw line, 9 assists to only 1 turnover, and shut down defense. While missing the last 10 minutes of the game, too. Safe to say he is the real deal.

Nolan and Kyle: What can you say? Same-old, same-old.

MP2: One thing I noticed outside of the whole rebounding discussion, there was one play where he had a perfect opportunity to try one of his famous far-reaching dunks that bangs off the back of the rim, but he just let it drop in. A nice sign of development.

Seth and Dre: The snipers were outstanding tonight. They shot 55% from three and both had a couple nice midrange shots.

Ryan, Tyler and Josh: Both brought some awesome energy (especially on defense) off the bench. Josh reminds me of Hanstravel in that he isn't the most talented, but he just HUSTLES HUSTLES HUSTLES. I would say that Ryan is more skilled than either of the Plumlees. I think he will end up as a starter by ACC season unless one of the Plumlees goes all Zoubs on us. Tyler plays solid D and could get some decent minutes based soley on that.

Overall a very good start. The communication (especially on D) could still use some work. Its safe to say I'm more amped for the season than I was before tonight.

[cptnflash]

We'll see; it was the first game.

There were some very impressive performances, which apparently you've chosen to ignore.

Not ignoring anything. As I said in my first post, our perimeter was awesome.

[Deslok]

In number of rebounds grabbed we had 1 more than Princeton, but they had something like 6 team rebounds to our 2, so we lost the overall battle. The rebounding is something to work on, but I was very impressed with how our defense worked together to shade and help with the screens and back cuts. Normally at this point in the year we have more lapses than we showed tonight.

[Cockabeau]

You people still don't seem to get it...if we play a team big enough to clobber us in the interior with inside scoring and rebounding Duke still will get its fair share of TO's,3-point shots and most of all-big men tend to wear down as the game progresses.

[InSpades]

Mad props to all of those posters who said months ago that Kyle would be playing a lot at the "4." Thank you, thank you. It took all of 5 minutes before it happened, and we played 3 guards most (?) of the game.

Our perimeter players are so good, we will see 3 guards quite a bit with Kyle sliding down low. But I think you will see less and less of it as the post guys get better.


I was and still am firmly in the "Kyle will play lots at the 4" camp. It's also why I'm not very concerned about our "big man" play. If need be we can stick a NPOY candidate at power forward which should solidify any inside problems we might have. Obviously it would be nice if the other big men step up and pull their weight but having Kyle around to take some of the load is fantastic.

As for the game... the 1st half was a bit disappointing but wow what a 2nd half. The offensive efficiency combined w/ forcing a ton of turnovers will be a lethal combination all year long. Shooting 50+ percent, with that many 3 pointers thrown in is very impressive. Nolan and Kyle were particularly efficient which is nice to see. Kyrie looked great. Seth seemed to find his rhythm in the 2nd half. Andre looked aggressive. Couldn't be more excited for this year!

[watzone]

You can hear Coach Krzyzewski's post game comments in theis link, laced with some game thoughts. http://bluedevilnation.net/2010/11/bdn-post-game-report-duke-tames-the-tigers-97-60/

[Dukeface88]

Mad props to all of those posters who said months ago that Kyle would be playing a lot at the "4." Thank you, thank you. It took all of 5 minutes before it happened, and we played 3 guards most (?) of the game.


I think everyone agreed that we'd see Kyle at the 4; it was more a question of how much. And on that question, I'm not sure whether tonight was more indicative of our typical line-up an substiution going forward, or if this was a specialized zone-buster. Additionally, Kyle sat for more minutes than normal due to foul issues, which basically puts us in 3-guard by default.

[uh_no]

Mad props to all of those posters who said months ago that Kyle would be playing a lot at the "4." Thank you, thank you. It took all of 5 minutes before it happened, and we played 3 guards most (?) of the game.


not mad props for realizing we were playing against the zone which is why we went 3 guards and that most games will not be against the zone....

that said, unless the plumlees make huge improvements on D (the first 3 (at least) baskets can be directly attributed to one of them losing their man), we will see kyle at the 4 by necessity

[jipops]

Our guys just hung 97 pts on an experienced Princeton team that won 22 games last year and only allowed opponents to average in the mid-50's as well. That is just nuts. And there is still a lot to improve on. The ride has begun.

The result was more impressive than I thought it might be, especially Kryie. I thought he might struggle with Princeton limiting possessions but he found his groove early. A very impressive outing for the freshman, especially considering the opponent and its style of play.

Kyle's defense is going to get him the DPOY if he keeps this up. He was outstanding. I can only iterate what has already been said. Nolan, great.

[timmy c]

It was nice to see Andre Dawkins mix his long range shooting with a few timely pump fakes and hard drives to the hoop. The game is slowing down enough for him to see the court and make good decisions.

[Neals384]

Mad props to all of those posters who said months ago that Kyle would be playing a lot at the "4." Thank you, thank you. It took all of 5 minutes before it happened, and we played 3 guards most (?) of the game.


Three guards: 29:48
Two guards: 10:12

[lotusland]

not mad props for realizing we were playing against the zone which is why we went 3 guards and that most games will not be against the zone....

that said, unless the plumlees make huge improvements on D (the first 3 (at least) baskets can be directly attributed to one of them losing their man), we will see kyle at the 4 by necessity

The best way to beat a zone is inside out not by passing around the perimeter. We played 3 guards because that is where we are most talented. That will be true throughout the season.

[timmy c]

Three guards: 29:48
Two guards: 10:12

Great info.!
Although, I'm not convinced that we'll see this on a regular basis. It seemed that Kyle's fould situation and Princeton's zone encourages the three guard lineup.

[uh_no]

The best way to beat a zone is inside out not by passing around the perimeter. We played 3 guards because that is where we are most talented. That will be true throughout the season.

no doubt inside out works.....but having 2 big men in against a zone does nothing....either the zone collapses on the big men or it doesn't, or it does.....and if it collapses on a big man down low, then it is MUCH more effective to have a 4th shooter on the floor than another big man....

we'll have to await a game where we play against a man-man set before we can determine what K will do 'most of the time'....but obviously we have seen tonight that the small set is what we will use against the zone (which most people probably could have guessed beforehand anyway)

[Wildling]

This was my first time seeing Kyrie play a competitive game............ Oh my is this going to be a fun year watching him dish the rock! Kid has a nice stroke too!

Kyrie and Nolan is going to be a 1-2 punch that can't be defended. How do you defend those two??

[Cockabeau]

Three guards: 29:48
Two guards: 10:12

Thank you;) Looks like the minority of people who predicted this 4 months ago are spot on.

[uh_no]

a lot is obviously being said about kyle tonight, and his fouls are intriguing

what K said in the presser was that kyle was compensating for his teammates mistakes, and one great example of this was his sliding over to take a charge (called a block), now aside from K throwing the non-kyle/nolan team under the bus, I think its important for kyle to play smart and accept that the team D is going to be lacking compared to last year, and if he tries to compensate, he's gonna end up hurting the team being on th ebench

i imagine it must be an very difficult thing to do to go against instinct and not try to compensate and saving the fouls

[Listen to Quants]

Princeton missed 27 shots. Duke grabbed 20 defensive rebounds. A bunch of the guards had 3 and 4 rebounds a piece so it was a team effort.

Duke had 7 offensive boards on 29 misses. I don't know if these are good percentages (what is normal?) or not, but doesn't seem bad at first glance...

KenPom has D1 rate in 2010 at close to 33%, Duke did well on offense by grabbing around 40% (seventh in D1). Duke's defensive rebounding was not nearly as spectacular, they allowed 32% of the boards to go to the opponent. Miles P. and Z were both excellent defensive rebounders but Z was miles ahead, te he, as a O rebounder.

[Newton_14]

Three guards: 29:48
Two guards: 10:12

Sorry, but that does not look right. You have to count the minutes where we had 2 of the 4 "true bigs" (Miles, Mason, Ryan, Josh) on the court vs the times we only had 1 of the 4 "true bigs" as that was the gist of the summer debate. Having Andre play the 3 with 2 bigs on the 4 does not count. The debate was more about playing 1 of the true bigs at a time vs 2 of the true bigs.

Don't know how that broke out tonight but below are the minutes for each of the bigs and the Small Forwards.

Mason- 20
Miles- 17
Ryan- 14
Josh- 13
Kyle- 26
Andre- 22

It is only one game, and we are a long way from this team establishing its identity. Either way tonight was a great start to the season. They ran the team picked to win the Ivy League out of the gym in the 2nd half with a variety of line ups and one of the big runs came while Nolan was in with 4 guys from the 2nd unit (Seth, Andre, Ryan, Josh) which was great to see. No slack off either when Tyler came in.

K used the depth tonight and the guys responded with great basketball. Hopefully that is a trend moving forward.

[uh_no]

KenPom has D1 rate in 2010 at close to 33%, Duke did well on offense by grabbing around 40% (seventh in D1). Duke's defensive rebounding was not nearly as spectacular, they allowed 32% of the boards to go to the opponent. Miles P. and Z were both excellent defensive rebounders but Z was miles ahead, te he, as a O rebounder.

i won't lie, at the game it seemed like there was a lot of not boxing out....now obviously that's vague and they are a big team, but I'm guessing the staff will work on this in the coming weeks

[VaDukie]

It was nice to see Andre Dawkins mix his long range shooting with a few timely pump fakes and hard drives to the hoop. The game is slowing down enough for him to see the court and make good decisions.

I was very impressed by Andre. I think somewhere K said that going up against Kyle day in and day out is going to have a big impact on his game, and today it showed.

[Delaware]

Overall the team looked like it has a ton of potential, but as K has said, it is early and will take time for the team to gel. But the upside is clearly there to see. We will have to get used to watching a "different game" vs. last years team.... faster pace, higher scoring, more highlights... but more turnovers, some missed assignments on defense leading to easy baskets, some mini runs by the opposition. Just will take some getting used to.

Kyle did not force anything, sat for a while with fouls and still looked great. Looks to me like he will hit every shot he takes. When he pops to the foul line area against a zone he is killer. After having to play very little at the "4" last year he will have to adjust to moving back and forth this year. His couple of cheap fouls I think were due to that. But he has every shot in the bag and is tireless.

Nolan was also impressive... he can get to the rim, hit the mid range/floater and the three.

Kyrie obviously played well, but I thought he forced a few shots and was hunting his shot too much early in the game... in the 2nd half he clamed down. But... 9:1 A/TO, pressure D and perfect from the line.... can you say dynamic PG!

Dawkins and Curry ... it's early, but it looks to me as if one or both of them could get hot in any game. And both won't go cold for a full game. One or both should be in double figures every game.

Plumlee's and Kelly... all three look to need some stonger hands/toughness in traffic when grabbing rebounds. Since we have so much firepower from the 5 guys above, the natural tendency of these three might be to shoot the ball quickly, try to do too much when they do touch the ball, etc. All three can be great help side defenders as the season progresses. With the pressure style, it will be easy for everyone say they are playing poor (or getting lost on) defense, when in actual fact this will be somewhat of a consequence of the style. These three will be the area of largest growth with the team over the year.

Hairston and TT look like they could both contribute at different times during the early season.... both seem to enjoy their roles and relish the defensive intensity.

[Newton_14]

I was very impressed by Andre. I think somewhere K said that going up against Kyle day in and day out is going to have a big impact on his game, and today it showed.

I was impressed with Andre as well. He moved his feet on defense much better than last year, and he moved without the ball on offense much better than last year as well. He looked confident out there, as he did in the first two exhibitions. Really great to see.

[uh_no]

Hairston and TT look like they could both contribute at different times during the early season.... both seem to enjoy their roles and relish the defensive intensity.

to me, hairston looked the best of the bigs tonight....unless the plumlees pick it up, I can see him snagging one their starting spots or more minutes at least

[cptnflash]

I was impressed with Andre as well. He moved his feet on defense much better than last year, and he moved without the ball on offense much better than last year as well. He looked confident out there, as he did in the first two exhibitions. Really great to see.

Coach K had a lot of praise for Andre in the postgame press conference, specifically referencing his defense guarding a bigger guy, his shot selection, and the quality of his preparation for the season.

[Orange&BlackSheep]

lol, relax. It's just a basketball game. It's just to annoy them.

Actually, I took the safety school chant as self-deprecation since I presumed an ironic tone. But back to basketball.

---------

I personally thought it went as I expected with a couple of exceptions.

On the + side:

-- I thought the Tigers' athleticism stood up better than I thought it would. No ping pong off the glass and we kept people in front of us so long as they weren't named Nolan or Kyrie. We do not face people named Nolan or Kyrie very often fortunately.

-- Mavraides is simply an assassin. He is playing with so much confidence.

On the - side:

-- Think anyone can tell we graduated our point guard and the guys that played all of the minutes at the 5? I am hoping this it is just early season jitters or something because Rutgers and Duke made us look very bad when they pressured the ball. When we have one of our vintage teams, the ball goes to the high post and the excessive pressure is counteracted by back door cuts. One can only hope that more practice and game experience will have us executing better as the year progresses. We have some very good players. I will be very disappointed not to be a 13 seed somewhere on Selection Sunday.

-- I am hoping that this is the last game where Kareem Maddox ever dribbles the ball in the open court. Painful.

-- We really did not take the air out of the ball as much as I thought we would. Way more points scored by both teams than I imagined. The pressure on the ball obviously forced the tempo.

My one-game suspension of Duke fandom being over, I return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

[JohnGalt]

What an awesome sight to see this team pushing the tempo like the good old days.
The only thing I think that can keep this team from being #1 at the end when it counts is the development of our post defense. It is early and it will take some time, but hopefully we can play a little stronger down low, with and without the ball.

Kyrie, Kyle and Nolan were all superb. Particularly impressive were Irving's and Nolan's on the ball defense.

Also I was really happy to see Andre get so much time off the bench and it looks like he has become a much better defensive player.

I was also happy that Seth got a chance to turn it on after the slow offensive start.

Whatever happens from here on out, it should be a fun year.

I don't know about you, but last year's team resides permanently in my "Good Ol' Days" book already.

Dre's stroke is like watching art in motion. Whenever little JohnGaltjr is born, he'll not only be watching JJ's tapes, but Dre's, as well.

One of the things I was most impressed with was Kyrie's poise on the court. I understand it was the 1st game against an inferior opponent, but Magnum KI stepped up and buried all 6(?) of his free throws like he was...well...Nolan Smith or something. It appears he's not only advanced athletically, but mentally/emotionally too. What he's got going in the ol noggin is just as spectacular as what he gets going on the court. Sweet.

[gep]

Plumlee's and Kelly... all three look to need some stonger hands/toughness in traffic when grabbing rebounds.

This is what I noticed the most. Seems like they got their hands on rebounds a lot, but then lost it when it was poked away or stripped. Towards the end of the game, though, it appeared that when Ryan got a defensive rebound, he fought and cradled the ball like it was his last bread crumb...

[uh_no]

while we're on freethrows, the one poor princeton kid missed 4 in a row at the end....after he missed the third one by a mile, we felt bad and half the grad students held their hands up like the would for a duke guy....to help him out a bit.....but alas,it was to no avail

[lotusland]

Sorry, but that does not look right. You have to count the minutes where we had 2 of the 4 "true bigs" (Miles, Mason, Ryan, Josh) on the court vs the times we only had 1 of the 4 "true bigs" as that was the gist of the summer debate. Having Andre play the 3 with 2 bigs on the 4 does not count. The debate was more about playing 1 of the true bigs at a time vs 2 of the true bigs.

Don't know how that broke out tonight but below are the minutes for each of the bigs and the Small Forwards.

Mason- 20
Miles- 17
Ryan- 14
Josh- 13
Kyle- 26
Andre- 22

It is only one game, and we are a long way from this team establishing its identity. Either way tonight was a great start to the season. They ran the team picked to win the Ivy League out of the gym in the 2nd half with a variety of line ups and one of the big runs came while Nolan was in with 4 guys from the 2nd unit (Seth, Andre, Ryan, Josh) which was great to see. No slack off either when Tyler came in.

K used the depth tonight and the guys responded with great basketball. Hopefully that is a trend moving forward.

Of Kyle 26 minutes, how many were played at the 4? I didn't chart it but it was at least half if not more. I remember being practically shouted down for speculatingt that Kyle would play substantial minutes at 4 to provide more minutes for Seth and Andre. in particular I remember hearing that Kyle would not play much 4 b/c he re-shaped his body to play 3 and that is his natural position at the next level blah blah blah.

Kyle is going to get his minutes. He'll average more than 26 for the year and I predict he will get approximately half at 4 not b/c I'm psychic but rather b/c it make sense for this team as was evident last year when "the debate" occured.

[Newton_14]

Of Kyle 26 minutes, how many were played at the 4? I didn't chart it but it was at least half if not more. I remember being practically shouted down for speculatingt that Kyle would play substantial minutes at 4 to provide more minutes for Seth and Andre. in particular I remember hearing that Kyle would not play much 4 b/c he re-shaped his body to play 3 and that is his natural position at the next level blah blah blah.

Kyle is going to get his minutes. He'll average more than 26 for the year and I predict he will get approximately half at 4 not b/c I'm psychic but rather b/c it make sense for this team as was evident last year when "the debate" occured.

He definitely played quite a bit at the 4 tonight. No argument there. In the first exhibition game, he played exclusively at the 3 with 2 bigs all of the first half, and about 80% of the 2nd half. The Cal Poly game was somewhat of a mix. So we only have 3 games of data to go on thus far.

After they get 12 or 14 games in we will get a better feel for how it is going to shake out. It all depends on how the bigs perform.

[Lord Ash]

Against so much zone I think we shouldn't be surprised that Kyle played a lot at the 4. That might not continue against a team that plays standard m2m defense.

[timmy c]

He definitely played quite a bit at the 4 tonight. No argument there. In the first exhibition game, he played exclusively at the 3 with 2 bigs all of the first half, and about 80% of the 2nd half. The Cal Poly game was somewhat of a mix. So we only have 3 games of data to go on thus far.

After they get 12 or 14 games in we will get a better feel for how it is going to shake out. It all depends on how the bigs perform.

Thanks for giving this issue a little perspective. Kyle's time at the 4 will vacillate depending on match-ups and game situations. Anyone looking for a standard rotation this early in the season hasn’t been paying attention in the past.

[Lord Ash]

Oh, and speaking of Kyle, this is as undamaged as his face has looked in a LONG time. Enjoy it while you can... a few more games and the stitches or the shiner will show up.

[devildeac]

By the way, my favorite play of the game might have been Tyler Thorton's steal and layup in the second half. He really read the ball well and covered a ton of ground to make the steal.

I just love Thornton as player and a kid who loves Duke and his team. I really think he can be a starting PG on a championship-caliber team by the time he's a senior, I just hope he sticks around through the parade of NBA-quality guards that will be coming through Durham during his first few seasons.

Hairston's steal near mid-court and drive for a slam was pretty sweet, too.

[Cockabeau]

Hairston looked extremely comfortable out there...

[uh_no]

Hairston's steal near mid-court and drive for a slam was pretty sweet, too.

i think that was our only slam of the game, which suprised me......since the team is filled with guys that can DUNK

[OldPhiKap]

{Good stuff.}

O&BS, thanks for the analysis. Good stuff.


And re: Kyle at the "four" or whatever -- against zone, expect to see Kyle at the top of the paint with three sharpshooters outside. No surprise. Not sure that has much to do with what we will see against M-2-M. But K said in his press conference that we will probably be playing 8-10 guys a night so I would expect a lot of variation. Depends on the match-up, because we will put Kyle wherever he IS the match-up problem.

[devildeac]

i think that was our only slam of the game, which suprised me......since the team is filled with guys that can DUNK

I believe that is correct. Mason looked like he was ready to tomahawk one but may have bobbled the ball just a bit on the way up but recovered for an easy lay-in/finger roll.

[DukeDiva]

I thought the boys looked great tonight. I can only imagine what we will look like mid-season after they have gelled. Towards the beginning of the game I told my husband that I missed seeing Jon on the court and before I could finish my sentence KI sunk a 3. My husband asked me if I was going to eat my words...I quickly replied no, but KI is awesome. I just miss Jon's smile after a great play.

I thought, as many has said, that our defense needed some work, but all in all a great start to the season:) Can't wait till the CBE in KC. This will be my first Duke game and I am bouncing off the walls! :D

[ricks68]

How many of you noticed all the different scoring moves Kyle used today? He not only was deadly, as usual from the "3", but had one lay-in from beneath the basket, some nice bank shots, with 10 footers and hooks. It looked a little bit like his video.:D It seemed that he was just having the best time out there.

ricks

[JBDuke]

You can hear Coach Krzyzewski's post game comments in theis link, laced with some game thoughts. http://bluedevilnation.net/2010/11/bdn-post-game-report-duke-tames-the-tigers-97-60/

Thanks for posting this, Watzone. I love the comment by K near the end that if Valvano was here, he'd have worn one of the Viking helmets. I can just see it, too.

[tele]

Nice start to the season against a well coached team. Kyrie Irving looked solid, I'm going to have to watch some of those moves on the dribble drives again!

In his postgame comments, that Watzone kindly linked to, Coach K mentioned having to address Kyle getting in foul trouble when he was helping on defense after someone else made a defensive mistake. He also talked about coaching 101, getting your best players on the court. My guess would be that the question of playing 3 guards with kyle at the 4, or two guards with kyle at the 3, will be decided in large part by how well the players play defense. Might not see as much of the combinations that lead to Kyle on the bench with foul trouble.

[BD80]

One game, I know. BUT ... Seth Curry will never be our starting point guard. Maybe he will be the second option next year, ala Nolan this year (and last), but he won't start absent an injury to Cook.

Ty Thorton will see the court more than just in garbage time this year, and will be in the rotation next year.

[Greg_Newton]

If you'd rather read K's quotes than listen, they are here: http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205031077

[Duvall]

One game, I know. BUT ... Seth Curry will never be our starting point guard.

Never? After one game, you can say this?

[uh_no]

One game, I know. BUT ... Seth Curry will never be our starting point guard. Maybe he will be the second option next year, ala Nolan this year (and last), but he won't start absent an injury to Cook.


boy...quinn cook must look better after 0 games than seth looks after 1

[Deslok]

Just one note from the AP recap...

Princeton hadn’t allowed that many points since a 103-76 loss to North Carolina on Dec. 31, 1968

So the most points in more than 40 years for Princeton. Um, wow. Though of course, it would have been nice to have scored more than the Heels.

[BD80]

Never? After one game, you can say this?

Pretty frickin' amazing, huh?


boy...quinn cook must look better after 0 games than seth looks after 1

Quinn started for the US team. So, yeah. He does. At point guard.

I am not saying Seth isn't a good player. I am disputing all those statements that Seth was going to be in the mix for starting point guard in the future, which would cause a log jam with Quinn and Tyler and other potential recruits. Seth will be a key perimeter player, and wil play a great deal, but not much at the point. I don't care where people think he will have to play in the pros, he won't be a starting point at Duke.

[Dukeface88]

Speaking of Seth, did anyone else think "looks like Jon's a bit rusty...oh wait" after the first couple of misses, or was it just me?

[TaiAdmiral]

Hi! Here's Crazie-Talk's video highlights from today's game against Princeton:

http://www.crazie-talk.com/2010/11/15/section-17-scary-scary-good/

[superdave]

One thing that struck me about this thread is how low people are on the Plumlees and want Kyle to move back to the 4 for a lot of minutes. Perspective people, please. Keep in mind how we evolved as a team last year.

[Kedsy]

Three guards: 29:48
Two guards: 10:12


Sorry, but that does not look right. You have to count the minutes where we had 2 of the 4 "true bigs" (Miles, Mason, Ryan, Josh) on the court vs the times we only had 1 of the 4 "true bigs" as that was the gist of the summer debate. Having Andre play the 3 with 2 bigs on the 4 does not count. The debate was more about playing 1 of the true bigs at a time vs 2 of the true bigs.

Don't know how that broke out tonight but below are the minutes for each of the bigs and the Small Forwards.

Mason- 20
Miles- 17
Ryan- 14
Josh- 13
Kyle- 26
Andre- 22




Of Kyle 26 minutes, how many were played at the 4? I didn't chart it but it was at least half if not more. I remember being practically shouted down for speculatingt that Kyle would play substantial minutes at 4 to provide more minutes for Seth and Andre. in particular I remember hearing that Kyle would not play much 4 b/c he re-shaped his body to play 3 and that is his natural position at the next level blah blah blah.

Kyle is going to get his minutes. He'll average more than 26 for the year and I predict he will get approximately half at 4 not b/c I'm psychic but rather b/c it make sense for this team as was evident last year when "the debate" occured.


Mad props to all of those posters who said months ago that Kyle would be playing a lot at the "4." Thank you, thank you. It took all of 5 minutes before it happened, and we played 3 guards most (?) of the game.


I didn't chart it, either, but I don't remember ever having three of our four (non-Kyle) bigs on the floor at the same time, which means that of the 80 "big" minutes, Miles, Mason, Ryan, and Josh took up 64. Leaving 16 minutes when we "went small."

I think most of the people on the "two guard" side of the debate still expected between 8 and 12 minutes where we'd go small. Obviously 16 is more than 8 or 10 or 12, but I don't think it's so many that the "three guard" people should be patting themselves on the back yet (especially after only one game). And while it's true that Kyle only played 26 minutes and I expect he'll average 30+ over the course of the season, that doesn't mean that he'll continue to play 62% of his minutes at the "4." If we re-start the debate, I might be willing to raise my estimate from 8-to-12 "small minutes" up to 10-to-15, but I still doubt we'll see much more going small than that.

And BD, while it's true you suggested Kyle would see significant time at the 4, you also argued (in a different thread) that the Plumlees would see all the minutes they could handle. I don't see how your two predictions can co-exist in a normal space-time continuum. (Also, 16 out of 40 is not most of the game.) But I completely agree with you that it should be a very fun season.

[mo.st.dukie]

One thing that struck me about this thread is how low people are on the Plumlees and want Kyle to move back to the 4 for a lot of minutes. Perspective people, please. Keep in mind how we evolved as a team last year.

Yeah, similar things were being said about Zoubek and Thomas this time last year (hadn't improved since their freshman years, etc.). It wasn't until February 13th last year that those two really started to beast it in the paint. Will the light come on for Miles and Mason this year like it did for the senior bigs last year? I don't know but I definitely think it's way too early to make to many conclusions about the Plumlees abilities this season.

[Greg_Newton]

If you'd rather read K's quotes than listen, they are here: http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205031077

BTW, my favorite part of this (from Princeton's head coach):


...obviously the opportunity to face the defending champ is pretty special. We would have loved for it to come out differently, but I don’t know how many teams are going to be able to play with these guys. There might be 10 teams in the country that can handle all the things that they throw at you so good luck to those guys because Duke’s pretty good.

:cool:

[lotusland]

I might be willing to raise my estimate from 8-to-12 "small minutes" up to 10-to-15, but I still doubt we'll see much more going small than that.

Welcome to the "Kyle will play substantial minutes at the 4" side of the argument. 10-15 minutes should be half the time he's on the floor and it only took one game for you to come to your senses!

[MChambers]

It was a great game, at least once the offense calmed down.

Irving is the real deal. I agree that he's got an amazing handle, very good three point shooting, excellent vision on his passing, a deadly free-throw stroke. Beyond that, however, was his anticipation of where the basketball would be. There was a play in the middle of the second half when Duke was on defense that was particularly striking. Someone took the ball away from a Princeton player and it was going out of bounds along the baseline. Curry went after it and threw it underhand and backwards towards the court, a play that is not usually wise, because it usually gives the offense obtain an easy chance at the basket. (In this case, however, there were several Duke players in the area, so maybe Curry thought it was a good gamble.) As Curry grabbed the ball, Irving seem to see what was happening faster than all of the other players on the court and broke right to where Curry threw the ball, starting a fast break the other way.

I don't know if Irving let Curry know he was there or how Curry could even control the throw. It was an amazing play.

[DukieInBrasil]

There was a play in the middle of the second half when Duke was on defense that was particularly striking. Someone took the ball away from a Princeton player and it was going out of bounds along the baseline. Curry went after it and threw it underhand and backwards towards the court, a play that is not usually wise, because it usually gives the offense obtain an easy chance at the basket. (In this case, however, there were several Duke players in the area, so maybe Curry thought it was a good gamble.) As Curry grabbed the ball, Irving seem to see what was happening faster than all of the other players on the court and broke right to where Curry threw the ball, starting a fast break the other way.

I don't know if Irving let Curry know he was there or how Curry could even control the throw. It was an amazing play.
yup, i particularly liked that one. Not to mention Kyrie grabbing a couple of rebounds by sliding to the right spot while the shot was in the air, anticipating a good spot to be in for a rebound.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I had a pre-season thought that Nolan would lead the team in scoring. Now that Duke's played a single game (and I know, it's only a single game), I really think that will be the case. By playing off the ball so much and playing with Kyrie, Nolan should have so many more easy buckets this year than last. Plus, he has gotten significantly stronger and agile, which is always a good thing.

So, with that, I will be making two bold statements:

1) Nolan will lead the team in scoring
2) Nolan will average over 19ppg

Just my 2 cents.

[devildeac]

Just one note from the AP recap...

Princeton hadn’t allowed that many points since a 103-76 loss to North Carolina on Dec. 31, 1968

So the most points in more than 40 years for Princeton. Um, wow. Though of course, it would have been nice to have scored more than the Heels.

Yea, but they gave up more points than we did and we had a larger margin of victory.;)

[sdotbarbee]

I know it has been said but I loved the way our backcourt played, I love to see great guard play. KI, Nolan, Seth, and Dawkins all played very well, and you can't forget about TT and his defense. I was also impressed by our free throw shooting, that is always a pet peeve of mine is bad free throw shooting and we looked good from the stripe tonight. My only criticism I have is our rebounding. We have got to rebound better, we were in position to get them we just weren't strong pulling them down. There were 3 times Mase had a hand on the ball and it was taken by a Princeton player, and the same thing happened to RK a few times. Luckily that kind of stuff is correctable, we just have to be stronger because we were in position. BTW I am very excited about the season.:D

[Smitty1911]

Hi! Here's Crazie-Talk's video highlights from today's game against Princeton:

http://www.crazie-talk.com/2010/11/15/section-17-scary-scary-good/

Great highlight reel. It just confirmed my gut when I voted for Nolan as MOTM -- Nolan is NASTY! And wow, Kyle has a lot of ways to score. One minor nit, for those of us who miss Cameron dearly, would it be possible to include a little more crowd noise and a little less music in future videos? Love that you guys are able to get such great footage -- almost felt like I was back in the student section.

[airowe]

yup, i particularly liked that one. Not to mention Kyrie grabbing a couple of rebounds by sliding to the right spot while the shot was in the air, anticipating a good spot to be in for a rebound.

My wife (who knows very little about the game, but bless her heart she's learning) noticed this as well. While I was watching in awe at the in-and-out dribble that Kyrie seems to have perfected, she was saying "He's so little and just grabs the ball away from those two bigger guys before they can get it."

This Princeton team is one that doesn't make a whole lot of mistakes, yet Duke forced them into 26 turnovers. For those of you who are saying we didn't play good defense, please remember that offense and defense aren't played in a vacuum. The other team has a lot to do with how Duke looks on either side of the ball.

If all we needed was one half to get over the national championship hangover, well there's going to be a lot less than ten teams that can hang with Duke this year.

[Dopeshop]

These are HUGE !

1. What's with the O'Reilly Auto Parts everywhere ? Part of the tournament ? tres tacky

2. What happened to Bullock's BBQ sandwiches ?

3. I did not hear Devil with the Blue Dress one time ? any reason ?

I'll hang up and listen ...

[BattierD12]

These are HUGE !

1. What's with the O'Reilly Auto Parts everywhere ? Part of the tournament ? tres tacky

2. What happened to Bullock's BBQ sandwiches ?

3. I did not hear Devil with the Blue Dress one time ? any reason ?

I'll hang up and listen ...


1) They're one of the main sponsors of the tournament. We'll only have to put up with the decals for one more game.

3) DWTBD was played about 2-3 times last night. It's always the song played right before each half begins.

[Lord Ash]

A good point re: Kyrie and rebounds. Having a natural nose for the ball, and an understanding of how it moves in space, is a bit plus for rebounding... it is the difference between an outstretched hand and a ball bouncing off fingertips, and a rebound. Jon was always dependable for this, and I am not surprised that a super-quick and efficient point guard is good at it too:)

Some of the ads (for example, the center one on the TV side of the Crazies and the court ad) are specific for this tourney. Have to agree, they are horribly distracting and ugly... Cameron is RIGHT at the limit of advertising becoming intrusive normally, and I think the new, tourney stuff pushes it over that limit.

[devildeac]

These are HUGE !

1. What's with the O'Reilly Auto Parts everywhere ? Part of the tournament ? tres tacky

2. What happened to Bullock's BBQ sandwiches ?

3. I did not hear Devil with the Blue Dress one time ? any reason ?

I'll hang up and listen ...


1) They're one of the main sponsors of the tournament. We'll only have to put up with the decals for one more game.

3) DWTBD was played about 2-3 times last night. It's always the song played right before each half begins.

It probably was not recognized because it is played at warp factor 3 speed in the 60 seconds before each half starts:D. Maybe we can get Springsteen to perform it once this year...;)

I don't believe Bullocks is open on Sunday so no BBQ sandwiches. Chick-Fil-A either.

[Billy Dat]

First off, I am thrilled that the season has begun. The team has so many justifiable lofty expectations being placed upon on that it is a great pressure release to go from prognostication to observation.

I know everyone's been saying it, but it really was an eerily amazing debut for Kyrie Irving. Did he not look like he was born to run this team? Princeton is no ranked team, but they are a veteran disciplined team that could make a freshman-point-guard-anxious-to-justify-his-rep look bad. Granted, I read an earlier post that said Princeton is breaking in a new PG, too, but Kyrie already looked like a veteran. Apparently, Marquette has a nice PG combo with Darius Johnson-Odom and Jimmy Butler so we may get a more realistic view of Kyrie's status, but dang...he shoots, he guards, he deflects, he dishes, he accelerates, he doesn't hurry. I know, N of 1, let's move on.

The perimeter is ridiculous. Singler, Smith, Irving, Curry, Dawkins - 5 lethal 3 point threats. Throw Kelly into the mix, and there will be very few nights that everyone is missing shots. I recognized that zone breaking offense as the one we used against Baylor, and we shredded it. Find the open man on that perimeter and you've got to feel good no matter who is shooting. Plus, you can tell how much time Dre has been spending with Nolan when you saw him float that runner. At 6'4" though, he's gonna be able to stroke that 3 against most people, no matter how tight they are checking him.

Speaking of the Plumlees (can we just start saying 'Plumli'?) I agree we need patience. Since Mason looks like he's becoming a keen passer, I really wish those two would use the telepathic brother connection to run more high/lo sets. But, I also feel like Kyrie, as he continues to get comfortable running the team, will make it a point to keep those big dogs happy with a steak every once in a while.

Kyle and Nolan were great - Kyle's diverse scoring repertoire is perfectly satirized in that Blue Planet "Kyle Gets Buckets" short...make sure to watch that one, or just tune in every game to see it applied in its most practical setting.

[BD80]

... Leaving 16 minutes when we "went small."

I think most of the people on the "two guard" side of the debate still expected between 8 and 12 minutes where we'd go small. ...

And BD, while it's true you suggested Kyle would see significant time at the 4, you also argued (in a different thread) that the Plumlees would see all the minutes they could handle. I don't see how your two predictions can co-exist in a normal space-time continuum. (Also, 16 out of 40 is not most of the game.) But I completely agree with you that it should be a very fun season.

The 16 minutes sounds better.

Frankly, the argument isn't so much how much we would go "small" as it is how much Kyle would play the "4." My recollection is that most resisting the idea that Kyle would play much "4" allowed that he might get about 5 minutes/game in the post (on D), and most of that would be in end game situations. Blowouts make for difficult comparisons, as the starters tend to sit more than they otherwise will. Also, my comment was as much provacative as probative, because the zone does have a lot to do with who plays. All that said, last night proved to me that Coach K is likely to use Kyle in the post a lot more than the 5 minutes/game, particularly because our perimeter players are so damn good.

As for Plumlee minutes, point taken. But I do fall back on context. I believe those statements were in contrast to those who argued that Coach K will only play the big men a certain amount of minutes, because in the past the big men only played a certain amount of minutes (21 - 25 mpg or something like that). Based upon last night, I stand by my statement that Mason will get all the PT that he can handle without fouling out, as long as the games are still competitive. Fouls and the blowout limited his minutes last night. I will admit that Miles may not get the max minutes, as he struggled mightily. Still, I think by the end of the year, he will be getting more and more minutes as he figures things out defensively and as he settles into his role (which has changed for him each year). I can also see Miles losing minutes to Ryan, who I root for because I love the way he sees the floor, I can see Ryan in the high post offensively against zones. The big bonus for me was Josh's play, I had not figured he would see meaningful minutes, guess nobody told Josh that. I am used to being wrong, in this instance I enjoy it.

[sandinmyshoes]

So far, so good.

It's hard to envision how anyone will stop us outside of a completely fluke game.

I suppose that an exceptionally quick backcourt, with both players having superb handles, combined with a bruising frontcourt scorer/shotblocker combo would present the greatest challenge. The guards could negate our pressure defense, and the bruisers could muscle us in the paint. But really, are there any teams like that out there this season? And even if so, they would still have to depend on us having a mediocre to bad shooting night from outside.

Don't get me wrong, I realize that we are bound to stumble somewhere at sometime. I'm just having a difficult time imagining the scenario.

[dukeballboy88]

Let me start by saying, I love this teams potential because of the depth and the unity the team shows. Its hard to get that many great players to get along and play together like they do.
This team has snipers set up around the perimeter that are deadly from nba range and a high percentage but at some point in time I think we will need to manufacture points when the j's dont fall.
Just one time can I see a big man we have catch the ball with his back to the basket maybe a foot outside of the lane, pound it twice, make contact with the defender, do a little shimmy and shoot a jump hook from about 5 feet away? I dont care if it goes in I just want to know that its there in case we need.

[MChambers]

Let me start by saying, I love this teams potential because of the depth and the unity the team shows. Its hard to get that many great players to get along and play together like they do.
This team has snipers set up around the perimeter that are deadly from nba range and a high percentage but at some point in time I think we will need to manufacture points when the j's dont fall.
Just one time can I see a big man we have catch the ball with his back to the basket maybe a foot outside of the lane, pound it twice, make contact with the defender, do a little shimmy and shoot a jump hook from about 5 feet away? I dont care if it goes in I just want to know that its there in case we need.
In that regard, one of the (mildly) disappointing stats last night was that Duke didn't get to the line very often. That may have had something to do with the opponent. It will be interesting to see if Duke can get the foul differential in its favor as the season goes on.

[COYS]

I took advantage of ESPN3 and rewatched the game when I had a little time on my hands this morning. A couple things stood out to me this time around.

First of all, I actually thought that Miles played much, much better than I originally believed. I didn't think he had a bad game, but I also didn't think he was particularly strong. However, he's defensive rotations were excellent. He moved his feet well when playing pressure D (granted, Brendan Connolly was unlikely to put it on the floor and beat anyone), and for the most part he rebounded well save for maybe one or two situations where he didn't quite bring the rebound all the way in . . . and one of those was partially because he and Kyrie were both fighting for it and they didn't communicate well enough. I'm with those who say that rebounding numbers matter less with this team. 26 turnovers for Princeton is way up there and takes away at least 10-12 chances at rebounds that our team would usually get. I wouldn't mind seeing our rebound percentage increase a little, but if Miles plays solid D like he did last night, we'll be in great shape. Actually, I hope Miles can be on the floor more than 17 minutes per game.

Also, I thought the first 4 minutes of the second half provided a glimpse of what kind of playmaker Mason can be on the offensive end. He got a nice bucket off of a post up from a pass from Singler. He then operated out of the high post and scored an and-1 on a drive to the hoop. He followed that up with a similar drive out of the high post that resulted in a dish to Irving for three. He also had a nice help-side block on defense during this sequence and pulled down a few boards. While he also made some questionable decisions (his next drive from the high post started a little further out than his last two and resulted in a charge and his 3rd foul), it was encouraging to see Mason create some offense on his own. He has great passing ability and as he improves his court vision and the team develops its chemistry, I think that Mason has the potential to be a truly viable 4th option in the halfcourt behind Kyle, Nolan and Kyrie.

I thought Hairston and Thornton also looked good. They both got beat a couple times on defense, but they also each made two of the better defensive plays of the night (Josh's steal and dunk and Tyler's steal and layup). Tyler looked calm and cool running the point and got people in good positions to make the offense flow. Josh was perhaps a little off on some of his screens (that will improve as the team develops its timing on offense), but was spaced well on offense and seemed particularly quick and mobile on defense. I think we will definitely see Josh on the court for our 3/4 court press and he seems comfortable enough with the ball that as long as he doesn't try to do too much on offense, he should be fine.

In the end, it all goes back to the seniors. These guys are really good and we are so lucky to have them around for another season. While I expect more drive and dish in our halfcourt sets, I actually hope we don't stray too far from the motion we saw last year. Kyle and Nolan have both become so good at knocking down open jumpers coming off of screens or quick ball movement. In addition, the extra spacing we have this year with Seth, Kyrie, Andre, etc keeping defenders out of the paint makes Nolan and Kyle even more deadly on drives to the hoop. Kyrie will do some amazing things and the new pace of play definitely suits our personnel. That being said, I think that all roads still run through Nolan and Kyle in the half court, whether it's Kyrie creating for them or the team running motion to get them open.

One more thought . . . 26 assists on 36 field goals . . . gotta like that stat. There are so many great shooters/scorers on this team that as long as we are willing to move the ball around, someone will be open and someone will knock down a shot. I hope this trend continues.

[Kedsy]

Welcome to the "Kyle will play substantial minutes at the 4" side of the argument. 10-15 minutes should be half the time he's on the floor and it only took one game for you to come to your senses!

Well, I was always at 10 minutes, so 10 to 15 really isn't so much of a shift in thinking for me.


The 16 minutes sounds better.

Frankly, the argument isn't so much how much we would go "small" as it is how much Kyle would play the "4." My recollection is that most resisting the idea that Kyle would play much "4" allowed that he might get about 5 minutes/game in the post (on D), and most of that would be in end game situations. Blowouts make for difficult comparisons, as the starters tend to sit more than they otherwise will. Also, my comment was as much provacative as probative, because the zone does have a lot to do with who plays. All that said, last night proved to me that Coach K is likely to use Kyle in the post a lot more than the 5 minutes/game, particularly because our perimeter players are so damn good.

As I said earlier, I've always thought he'd play around 10 minutes down there (with the Plumlees totaling 42 to 45 and Ryan/Josh sharing 25 to 28, a total of 70 for the four of them), for basically the same reason you mention, that we need to find minutes for Seth and Andre. Of course if Seth and Andre are going to play 24 and 22 minutes (as they did last night) then Kyle may have to play a few more minutes down low.

I was interested to see pfrduke's +/- ratings that showed the one-big-plus-Kyle lineups at only +9 in 16 minutes, while the "two bigs" lineups were +28 in 24 minutes. I know it's only one game, but those numbers appear to confirm what I already suspected: that the traditional lineup is more effective (or at least it was against Princeton).


As for Plumlee minutes, point taken. But I do fall back on context. I believe those statements were in contrast to those who argued that Coach K will only play the big men a certain amount of minutes, because in the past the big men only played a certain amount of minutes (21 - 25 mpg or something like that). Based upon last night, I stand by my statement that Mason will get all the PT that he can handle without fouling out, as long as the games are still competitive. Fouls and the blowout limited his minutes last night. I will admit that Miles may not get the max minutes, as he struggled mightily. Still, I think by the end of the year, he will be getting more and more minutes as he figures things out defensively and as he settles into his role (which has changed for him each year). I can also see Miles losing minutes to Ryan, who I root for because I love the way he sees the floor, I can see Ryan in the high post offensively against zones. The big bonus for me was Josh's play, I had not figured he would see meaningful minutes, guess nobody told Josh that. I am used to being wrong, in this instance I enjoy it.

Mason only had 3 fouls and played only 20 minutes. My guess still is he'll rarely exceed 25 in a game. It's funny how many posters are saying how much Miles struggled, when according to pfrduke's +/- ratings, Miles was tops on the team (at 32, over 75 per 40 minutes). So he must have done something right; I agree with COYS that it had to do with defense. I realize it was just one game and there are a lot of factors that go into +/- that involve luck rather than skill, but the +/- rating was one of the metrics that presaged Z's ascendancy last year. (Early on, while many were denigrating him, his +/- stats were consistently outstanding, suggesting his play was better than it appeared to the untrained eye.) So I'm not ready to dump on Miles yet.


Just one time can I see a big man we have catch the ball with his back to the basket maybe a foot outside of the lane, pound it twice, make contact with the defender, do a little shimmy and shoot a jump hook from about 5 feet away? I dont care if it goes in I just want to know that its there in case we need.

It's good that you don't care if it goes in, because if he catches it then "pound[s] it twice," he will have almost no chance of scoring (and not really much of one of even getting it to the basket). This was one of Z's problems in his early years. He almost always put it on the floor after he caught it -- giving smaller players a chance to reach in and disrupt his shot -- rather than just catching it and shooting.

[rhcpflea99]

Ryan Kelly defense was pretty good. I'll be surprised if he is not starting by the end of the year.

[superdave]

I was interested to see pfrduke's +/- ratings that showed the one-big-plus-Kyle lineups at only +9 in 16 minutes, while the "two bigs" lineups were +28 in 24 minutes. I know it's only one game, but those numbers appear to confirm what I already suspected: that the traditional lineup is more effective (or at least it was against Princeton).

Mason only had 3 fouls and played only 20 minutes. My guess still is he'll rarely exceed 25 in a game. It's funny how many posters are saying how much Miles struggled, when according to pfrduke's +/- ratings, Miles was tops on the team (at 32, over 75 per 40 minutes). So he must have done something right; I agree with COYS that it had to do with defense. I realize it was just one game and there are a lot of factors that go into +/- that involve luck rather than skill, but the +/- rating was one of the metrics that presaged Z's ascendancy last year. (Early on, while many were denigrating him, his +/- stats were consistently outstanding, suggesting his play was better than it appeared to the untrained eye.) So I'm not ready to dump on Miles yet.

The +28 with two bigs in the game and Miles +32 are two excellent points to keep in mind. Thanks, Kedsy!

Two more points: I really hope Miami OH does not play zone tomorrow because I'd like to see the contrast where the middle is opened up a little more and we dont shoot 26 threes. Secondly, if we dont have two bigs in the game, are we going to use Kyle as the designated screener? Is that a good use of his game?

[wilko]

Last night was my 1st peek at this yrs team.
I like what I saw. Alot! Perfect? No, of course not.... but golly.

KI - His debut did not disappoint. Will only improve. That gives me shivers.

TT - Productive in his minutes. Played tuff. Not your avg PG off the bench.

S&S - About what you should expect from them at this point. Seniors making it work for the young guys in some parts and showing them how to in others.

RK - The "Bilas" diet from yrs ago is in full effect. He is filling out nicely. Will be a weapon with more exp and confidence. When he cant clear Reb cleanly; he tries to tap it toward a teammate. He may miss some of those and/or get a silly foul but that will lead to some fast breaks. I'm thinking he could be "Ferry Lite".

AD - Showed he belongs. Had the shot and the drive working.

SC - A nice game. not fantabulous, but not bad either. I think he had a case of nerves for a while...

JH - Very nice start. Solid game much like TT. "Baby Landlord" in the works? Time will tell, however, something in his mannerisms and movements seemed reminiscent. Maybe its just me seeing things.

MP's 1&2. Seen a lot of criticism for these guys. A bit of it is unfair. They had decent games.
Not overwhelming but not stink-a-licious by any means either. We were successful when we had Bilas at center one yr..

All I'm saying is Team Success for them shouldn't be predicated on the perception of how a traditional post Players should play. I just don't think its in them to overpower an opponent as a C or PF in the conventional sense. They will find their niche feeding off of the Perimeter. Spacing, double teams and otherwise defensive traps will be their friends to create mismatches to for them exploit on Offense.

Ball movement, screens, positioning to assist the Perimeter drivers are all going to set up their teammates and allow them to draw fouls against opposing Bigs. I think as long as they play solid (if not spectacular D) they will be prove to be more of a barrier than a true "Stopper", and fill their roles nicely for the team.

I hope it was a case of nerves and they prove me wrong. It would be nice to see a banging power post game. However, I'm not 100% convinced its necessary. Solid, bend but don't break is fine too.

[Indoor66]

Hi! Here's Crazie-Talk's video highlights from today's game against Princeton:

http://www.crazie-talk.com/2010/11/15/section-17-scary-scary-good/

Check out the time on the shot clock through this video. I think 22 was the lowest I saw and 31 the highest. We moved the ball!

[COYS]

One other thing . . . Nolan really went to his left hand in this game. I think he had four lefty layups including one beautiful finger roll after a devastating crossover. It looked like he controlled the ball with his mind, lifting it just above Maddox's well-timed attempt at a block before nudging it back down through the hoop without grazing the rim. He can go right, he can go left, he can knock down the three, and he's become incredibly from midrange. If he continues to rack up the assists as he did tonight, I think he could really move up the draft boards.

[cameroncrazy3104]

My question is why did Casey and Todd not see the floor? Up by 40 with about a minute to go I was really hoping that they would be subbed in for Seth and Dre. By the looks of it Seth and Andre will score a good amount his year, why would we risk them getting hurt against Princeton?

[-jk]

In post game remarks, K said there is no "junk time" this early in the season. They have too many things to work on, and need all the time.

-jk

[COYS]

In post game remarks, K said there is no "junk time" this early in the season. They have too many things to work on, and need all the time.

-jk

Completely agree. Plus, it's not like anyone played too much last night or like the game was overly physical or anything. It wasn't until the second half that Seth looked to get comfortable on the court. Similarly, Andre is embracing a new role and is looking to make a big jump from last year. Our second unit with Seth, Andre, Tyler, Josh, and Ryan needs to get some time as well. There was definitely a let down at the very end of the game after Curry nailed his last jumper. Some of that was unavoidable because of the big lead, but I'm sure K let the second unit know that he expects them to continue to play intensely until the whistle sounds. I am all for giving our second unit a chance to execute in a real game situation even when we're up big. You never know when we'll need them to step up for real.

[Lord Ash]

My question is why did Casey and Todd not see the floor? Up by 40 with about a minute to go I was really hoping that they would be subbed in for Seth and Dre. By the looks of it Seth and Andre will score a good amount his year, why would we risk them getting hurt against Princeton?

Yeah, as a few folks have said, this is NOT a team where we expect to only go 7 deep, and most of those seven have serious basketball experience. Outside of Nolan and Kyle, most guys DON'T have serious experience... Mason has only one year under his belt. Miles has two. Dawk has only one. Kelly has only one. Curry has none at this level. Kyrie has none. Josh has none. Tyler has none. And most of these guys have not played serious minutes together. At this point Casey and Todd don't need the minutes; we need to use every second we can giving the guys who will really play (which, with this team, is TEN of them) as much time playing together as possible.

[COYS]

Yeah, as a few folks have said, this is NOT a team where we expect to only go 7 deep, and most of those seven have serious basketball experience. Outside of Nolan and Kyle, most guys DON'T have serious experience... Mason has only one year under his belt. Miles has two. Dawk has only one. Kelly has only one. Curry has none at this level. Kyrie has none. Josh has none. Tyler has none. And most of these guys have not played serious minutes together. At this point Casey and Todd don't need the minutes; we need to use every second we can giving the guys who will really play (which, with this team, is TEN of them) as much time playing together as possible.

Hopefully by working hard now, the team can give Casey and Todd minutes in the final three minutes of a game played next April as everyone else celebrates on the sidelines.

[DukieInBrasil]

I am all for giving our second unit a chance to execute in a real game situation even when we're up big. You never know when we'll need them to step up for real.
OTOH, you never know when you might need another Z to step in, or Casey for that matter. Both of those guys work their tails off in practice and are good players in their own right, just not as good as the other 10. I'm not saying that minutes should just be given to them as compensation for their practice time, but getting 1:30 of PT in this game, or any blow-out game, could pay big dividends later if there is some sort of emergency.

[BD80]

OTOH, you never know when you might need another Z to step in, or Casey for that matter. Both of those guys work their tails off in practice and are good players in their own right, just not as good as the other 10. I'm not saying that minutes should just be given to them as compensation for their practice time, but getting 1:30 of PT in this game, or any blow-out game, could pay big dividends later if there is some sort of emergency.

That has NEVER been Coach K's approach to games. For years we have wondered why certain players haven't received more PT off the bench with the thought that it would better prepare them should they be needed later. Instead, Coach K reserves game minutes primarily for those that will be playing come tournament time. Sure, there will be some times when he clears the bench, but for now he is trying to work TEN guys into a rotation and get them comfortable playing with each of the other nine guys. If there is some sort of emergency, Coach K will handle it with those remaining from the 10 scholarship players.

Even when we only had seven guys playing significant minutes, Coach K would keep those seven in well past the time the game was decided because he wanted those guys to improve and to get those seven guys used to playing that much in games.

[Lord Ash]

OTOH, you never know when you might need another Z to step in, or Casey for that matter. Both of those guys work their tails off in practice and are good players in their own right, just not as good as the other 10. I'm not saying that minutes should just be given to them as compensation for their practice time, but getting 1:30 of PT in this game, or any blow-out game, could pay big dividends later if there is some sort of emergency.

It would take an emergency of EPIC proportions for a team that has a viable, scholarship, often-McDonads All American backup at EVERY position to have to turn to Casey for minutes in a BIG game.

[jimsumner]

It would take an emergency of EPIC proportions for a team that has a viable, scholarship, often-McDonads All American backup at EVERY position to have to turn to Casey for minutes in a BIG game.

Well, technically, Kelly is the only McDonald's All-American on the bench. Hairston made Parade.

But your main point is spot on.

We need to keep in mind that seven of Duke's ten recruited players are freshmen or sophomores. Duke is going to be in teaching mode all season long. The lineup on the floor at the end of last night's game consisted of two freshmen and three sophomores. One of the sophomores sat out last season as a transfer. Another is switching from wing forward to post player, the third is switching from guard to wing forward.

So, I would dismiss the concept of garbage time for at least the immediate future. Lessons to be taught, lessons to be learned.

[vabombers]

I was excited by what I saw last night. Here are some position grades handed out from last night. The notables that I saw were

Kyle, Nolan: Each given an A from perimeter guys. Makes sense, they carried the load in the first half until the younger guys got comfortable.

Miles: Only player to get anything lower than a B. I think it goes along with everyone's assessment that he has been kind of lost. Partly because of his role, and partly because of the defense and not having a handle on the type of game he needs to play offensively and defensively yet.

>>> Position Grades Duke/Princeton (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/6012204/blue_devilsbasketball_grading_the_duke.html)

[MChambers]

I was excited by what I saw last night. Here are some position grades handed out from last night. The notables that I saw were

Kyle, Nolan: Each given an A from perimeter guys. Makes sense, they carried the load in the first half until the younger guys got comfortable.

Miles: Only player to get anything lower than a B. I think it goes along with everyone's assessment that he has been kind of lost. Partly because of his role, and partly because of the defense and not having a handle on the type of game he needs to play offensively and defensively yet.

>>> Position Grades Duke/Princeton (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/6012204/blue_devilsbasketball_grading_the_duke.html)
Guess the author didn't follow the plus/minus. Also, who is this grader and what are his qualifications? (Does he have any pitchforks?)

[Dukeface88]

We have ten scholarship players. All but one got double digits (and Thornton was just barely below with 9), and someone is complaining about K not playing the bench enough. Seriously?

I swear, some people aren't going to be happy until K is inserting random Crazies at half time.

[superdave]

I was excited by what I saw last night. Here are some position grades handed out from last night. The notables that I saw were

Kyle, Nolan: Each given an A from perimeter guys. Makes sense, they carried the load in the first half until the younger guys got comfortable.

Miles: Only player to get anything lower than a B. I think it goes along with everyone's assessment that he has been kind of lost. Partly because of his role, and partly because of the defense and not having a handle on the type of game he needs to play offensively and defensively yet.

>>> Position Grades Duke/Princeton (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/6012204/blue_devilsbasketball_grading_the_duke.html)

I give the author 0 pitchforks because Miles had a +32 last night.

[Greg_Newton]

It's good that you don't care if it goes in, because if he catches it then "pound[s] it twice," he will have almost no chance of scoring (and not really much of one of even getting it to the basket). This was one of Z's problems in his early years. He almost always put it on the floor after he caught it -- giving smaller players a chance to reach in and disrupt his shot -- rather than just catching it and shooting.

I don't really think this is a fair response. That was a problem for Z because he would put the ball on the floor under the basket and in traffic, mostly just to gather himself before going up.

I believe the OP was referring to situations where the big gets the ball 5-8 feet out and relatively isolated on one side of the lane. I highly doubt that any our bigs will get doubled in that context, so it's not a particularly dangerous situation. I agree that it really shouldn't be that hard for Mason or Miles to take a power dribble or two, bump the defender back, and float the ball up with one hand - Miles has done it almost shockingly well on rare occaisons in the past and Mason seems to be getting better at it, but they seem to have a frustrating aversion to initiating the on-ground contact necessary for getting separation for a jump-hook. Would be nice if they could make it a natural thing.

-----

A few other random impressions:

-Kyle: I think he'll become the SF he was always meant to be this year. He's looked scary good so far. A couple of his drives actually made me laugh because of how smooth and easy he made them look - he legitimately looks like a pro playing in college. I think his body and handles are finally to a point where he's completely comfortable gliding around the floor with ball and letting the game come naturally to him, and it's a beautiful thing. He really had to think about and force things at times last year (even against weaker competition), but I think he'll have a shot at going lottery if he continues to look this smooth and natural on the wing against better teams.

-Seth Curry is still learning to pick and choose his spots. You can tell he's used to being the A-1 option, and is still pulling the trigger in spots that may have been a good shot at Liberty, but isn't on a loaded Duke team. Case in point was when he pulled up for an open-but-off-balance 18 footer on the break yesterday, with no one in rebounding position... he doesn't need to force that, we can get a better shot. I also think his ballhandling isn't quite where it needs to be yet for an ACC PG, but there's no doubt he'll have some explosive games and hit some big shots for us this year. Should be fun to watch him learn.

-To an extent, the whole team (besides Nolan and Kyle) has the same issue as Seth. Nolan, Kyle, Kyrie, Seth, Andre, and even Mason and Ryan to an extent, are all guys who you could run and offense through, who could put up good numbers if they took every open look. Right now, we're still largely taking the first good shot that comes to us, which is still enough to be very good. However, if they can all learn to work defenses together and use their array of weapons to compliment each other and produce the best shot possible for the team - even if it means passing up a decent look in the meantime - that's when we'll be scary good.

In the meantime, I would like to see our offense run through Nolan and Kyle more in the early going. They both have looked like pros so far, and I'm not sure either has taken a non-high-percentage shot yet - I think that'd be a good way to build an early lead and get into a rhythm while letting the less experienced guys settle down and take what they're given without as much pressure to put a zillion points up immediately.

I'd also like this because our "young gunners" really seem to thrive in the second half. It's reminded me of the FIBA team USA so far, in that our explosive depth is so great that it really starts to overwhelm teams about 20-30 minutes in. For most teams, there's a slight lull to the intensity and adrenaline of play at that time as fatigue sets in, but that's when Seth and Andre seem to get warmed up and come alive and the offense really hits its gear. I have a feeling we'll see a lot of ~10 point halftime leads that get blown wide open into 20-30 point blowouts with ~10 minutes left... you really can't let your guard down once against this team for 40 minutes.

-Andre continues to look like more of a player than last year. We're not going to be running iso sets for him, but I love how confident and effective he's been with that pump fake/jab step, two dribble, floater so far. It looks much quicker and more fluid than last year, and he's had some really nice touch on that teardrop - you can tell he did about 10,000 reps of that move this summer! I think it means he'll be a two-dimensional player this year (rather than 1-D), but that second dimension makes him much more effective. As K said, I think matching up with Kyle every day has done wonders for him on both ends.

[vabombers]

Guess the author didn't follow the plus/minus. Also, who is this grader and what are his qualifications? (Does he have any pitchforks?)

MChambers: Shared those grades because they seemed to go along with the eyeball test more than the numbers.

Jim: Agree on garbage time. Interesting to point out there was some time early in the second half when Kyle picked up the third foul and Kelly, Hairston, Curry, Irving, Smith were on the floor. I believe Dawkins was on the floor instead of Irving for some of that time too. The group extended the lead, which was very encouraging. Kelly and Hairston held their own much better than I expected in those circumstances.

[superdave]

-Andre continues to look like more of a player than last year. We're not going to be running iso sets for him, but I love how confident and effective he's been with that pump fake/jab step, two dribble, floater so far. It looks much quicker and more fluid than last year, and he's had some really nice touch on that teardrop - you can tell he did about 10,000 reps of that move this summer! I think it means he'll be a two-dimensional player this year (rather than 1-D), but that second dimension makes him much more effective. As K said, I think matching up with Kyle every day has done wonders for him on both ends.

I agree completely about Andre's improvement. I thought his defense was great - he stayed in front of his guy and seemed to rotate well on the help side.

He also added the pump fake and drive to his repertoire which will give him a few more open looks from deep by creating space. His confidence and hustle are both notable. I'm looking forward to his first big dunk in traffic.

[stickdog]

Scoring differential when Singler played the 4:

Duke 35, Princeton 26 +9

Scoring differential when two of Plum1, Plum2, Kelly and Hairston played the 4 & 5:

Duke 62, Princeton 34 +28

[MChambers]

MChambers: Shared those grades because they seemed to go along with the eyeball test more than the numbers.
I understand, but it's important to remember that the eyes can deceive, as was the case last year with Zoubs and Lance, who often did not please the eye, but were amazingly effective.

[stickdog]

The last team to score 90 or more points on Princeton was Duke in 1974.

The last team to score more than 90 points on Princeton was Kentucky in 1971.

Only twice in Princeton's 110 year history of playing basketball has the opposing team scored more than 97 points on Princeton (1963 & 1968).

[roywhite]

Scoring differential when Singler played the 4:

Duke 35, Princeton 26 +9

Scoring differential when two of Plum1, Plum2, Kelly and Hairston played the 4 & 5:

Duke 62, Princeton 34 +28


I understand, but it's important to remember that the eyes can deceive, as was the case last year with Zoubs and Lance, who often did not please the eye, but were amazingly effective.

An important area which doesn't show up directly in the stats....setting good screens.

Zoubs and Lance (and the Plums did some of this last year, too) became very good at setting screens and producing open shots or easier shots. Without having watched the tape, I'd guess this was happening last night, also. Our shooters were getting good looks, at least partially because of good screens set by big guys.

[OldPhiKap]

I'd be careful issuing grades. I recall Coach K inviting a Chronicle reporter over to let the kid know what Coach thought of the grades printed in the Chronicle . . . .

Just sayin'

[vabombers]

I understand, but it's important to remember that the eyes can deceive, as was the case last year with Zoubs and Lance, who often did not please the eye, but were amazingly effective.

I disagree, numbers can be just as much if not an even bigger deceiver. Zoubek and Thomas were passed every eye test for me from about the halfway point of the season on. Yes, Zoubek had the breakout numbers game against Maryland, but he really started getting it a couple of games before that and just exploded with minutes, time and opportunity in that game. I saw that, and I think alot of basketball people did too. That's why there was some clammoring for him to get more time as long as he could stay out of foul trouble.

I fully agree that numbers are very good to tell a story, but only when coupled with eye balls. that's why Coach K and the team will spend more time watching video this week than they will pouring over the stat sheet.

[stickdog]

Yea, but they gave up more points than we did and we had a larger margin of victory.;)

Speaking of margins of victory, here are the largest against Princeton since 1946:

38 points vs. Seton Hall in 2007 (11-17 Princeton team, 2-12 Ivy)
37 points vs. Duke yesterday (1-1 Princeton team picked to win the Ivy)
37 points vs. Duke in 2000 (16-11 Princeton team, 11-3 Ivy)
36 points vs. Duke in 1979 (15-15 Princeton team, 11-4 Ivy)

Nobody else has beaten Princeton by 35 or more points in over 60 years.

[Kedsy]

I disagree, numbers can be just as much if not an even bigger deceiver. Zoubek and Thomas were passed every eye test for me from about the halfway point of the season on. Yes, Zoubek had the breakout numbers game against Maryland, but he really started getting it a couple of games before that and just exploded with minutes, time and opportunity in that game. I saw that, and I think alot of basketball people did too. That's why there was some clammoring for him to get more time as long as he could stay out of foul trouble.

I fully agree that numbers are very good to tell a story, but only when coupled with eye balls. that's why Coach K and the team will spend more time watching video this week than they will pouring over the stat sheet.

Actually, I thought Z was "getting it" pretty much the entire season last year, and the appropriate numbers (+/- and per 40 extrapolations) backed that up, pretty much from day 1. But using "eye balls" you wouldn't have seen that (and apparently didn't, based on your own comment) until halfway through the season.

Put another way, even if you are right that numbers cannot be relied on without confirmation by the eyes, why do you think the eyes can be relied on without confirmation by the numbers?

Obviously numbers can be manipulated, but eyes can be deceived. Especially inexpert eyes. Coach K can see things on video that most of us would never notice. But don't kid yourself -- he also spends plenty of time on the stat sheet.

[MChambers]

I fully agree that numbers are very good to tell a story, but only when coupled with eye balls. that's why Coach K and the team will spend more time watching video this week than they will pouring over the stat sheet.
Right, but I trust the coaching staff's eyes far more than any Duke fans, even the most knowledgeable folks who post here.

[Neals384]

Sorry, but that does not look right. You have to count the minutes where we had 2 of the 4 "true bigs" (Miles, Mason, Ryan, Josh) on the court vs the times we only had 1 of the 4 "true bigs" as that was the gist of the summer debate. Having Andre play the 3 with 2 bigs on the 4 does not count. The debate was more about playing 1 of the true bigs at a time vs 2 of the true bigs.


Well, the question that was asked in this thread was about "three guards", and the answer was correct.

Now, if you ask how often we had three guards and only one "Big", then the answer is

Three guards with 2 bigs - 13:57
Three guards with 1 big (and Kyle) - 15:51
Two guards - 10:12

But I wonder why you consider Josh one of the "Bigs"?

[CEF1959]

Right, but I trust the coaching staff's eyes far more than any Duke fans, even the most knowledgeable folks who post here.

Judging from the post-game comments, I think the coaching staff liked what they saw last night. "Too much energy" on offense in the first half, according to K, and that was about as critical as he could muster. Could be a lot worse.

I loved the fact that so many people got good quality minutes and made the most of them. Apparently, the staff had figured out that Princeton likes to play its guards 40 minutes. So they got to see lots of faces manning up against them on both ends. Duke is so deep, that's going to be a problem for opponents all season.

I'm not worried about the production from the bigs. It wasn't a game that called for that, and none of the bigs had a "bad" game. We'll see that throughout the season -- collapsing defenses hoping to neutralize the bigs and cut off passing lanes inside. As long as the shooters are making opponents pay for that tactic, no worries. Teams that live by the outside shot can sometimes die by the outside shot. But dang, we've got a lot of 'em. The talented depth will simply overwhelm some opponents, as it did last night against a good Princeton team.

KI: What can you say? When he stepped to the line early in the game and calmly drained two FTs, I thought, "this is going to be a fun season."

I like to see how opposing coaches sum up the games. Here's Johnson:

"I don't know how many teams are going to be able to play with Duke," Johnson said. "There might be 10 teams in the country that can handle all the things that they throw at you. So, good luck to those guys, because Duke's pretty good."

Yup.

[Neals384]

i won't lie, at the game it seemed like there was a lot of not boxing out....now obviously that's vague and they are a big team, but I'm guessing the staff will work on this in the coming weeks

Agree. Boxing out seems to be a lost art. Other posters have commented on our Big's needing to be stronger on grabbing and controlling boards - boxing out helps with that too.

[-jk]

I disagree, numbers can be just as much if not an even bigger deceiver. Zoubek and Thomas were passed every eye test for me from about the halfway point of the season on. Yes, Zoubek had the breakout numbers game against Maryland, but he really started getting it a couple of games before that and just exploded with minutes, time and opportunity in that game. I saw that, and I think alot of basketball people did too. That's why there was some clammoring for him to get more time as long as he could stay out of foul trouble.

I fully agree that numbers are very good to tell a story, but only when coupled with eye balls. that's why Coach K and the team will spend more time watching video this week than they will pouring over the stat sheet.

I do know K keeps and studies numbers. Among other things, he tracks how effecient a player is from where and in which minute of playing time.

I can't speak to how much practice time he devotes to it, but I'm sure numbers get a fair amount of staff time.

-jk

[Newton_14]

Well, the question that was asked in this thread was about "three guards", and the answer was correct.

Now, if you ask how often we had three guards and only one "Big", then the answer is

Three guards with 2 bigs - 13:57
Three guards with 1 big (and Kyle) - 15:51
Two guards - 10:12

But I wonder why you consider Josh one of the "Bigs"?

Josh is playing the PF position. We have 4 guys that will be playing either the PF or Center position whenever they are in the game. (Miles, Mason, Ryan, Josh). Kyle will play both the SF and PF positions so he is the wildcard there.

Andre will play the SF most of the times he is in, with an occasional sighting at the SG. (Not that K has positions or anything:D)

He may change throughout his career but for this season Josh is playing the PF position. I don't expect we will see him play SF unless injuries forces K's hand.

[vabombers]

Actually, I thought Z was "getting it" pretty much the entire season last year, and the appropriate numbers (+/- and per 40 extrapolations) backed that up, pretty much from day 1. But using "eye balls" you wouldn't have seen that (and apparently didn't, based on your own comment) until halfway through the season.

Put another way, even if you are right that numbers cannot be relied on without confirmation by the eyes, why do you think the eyes can be relied on without confirmation by the numbers?

Obviously numbers can be manipulated, but eyes can be deceived. Especially inexpert eyes. Coach K can see things on video that most of us would never notice. But don't kid yourself -- he also spends plenty of time on the stat sheet.

We could go back and forth on this forever. But I'll say this:

A. I don't claim to be an expert, if you are then that's great. I would trust the coaching staff to make the decisions not myself. What I see I base off experience, but I trust the eyes of the coaching staff over anyone's numbers any day.

B. That being said I'm a numbers guy (actually my profression is data analysis). So it's ironic I'm holding this position, but it can be true. You don't have to sell me on numbers, but coaches go with eye balls tests. I watch a lot of basketball and have played some. Enough for me to believe I can do an eyeball test, but it has to be interesting that since the numbers said Zoubs was getting it all last season the coaches obviously thought something different, and/or he was getting into foul trouble. In either case I trust their opinions over the numbers.

My eyeballs caught on to Zoubs and yes it is cool to see how the numbers played out and showed before he got significant time, but they do for a lot of people who never fulfill their potential so we can't use that theory on every player.

[vabombers]

We could go back and forth on this forever. But I'll say this:

A. I don't claim to be an expert, if you are then that's great. I would trust the coaching staff to make the decisions not myself. What I see I base off experience, but I trust the eyes of the coaching staff over anyone's numbers any day.

B. That being said I'm a numbers guy (actually my profression is data analysis). So it's ironic I'm holding this position, but it can be true. You don't have to sell me on numbers, but coaches go with eye balls tests. I watch a lot of basketball and have played some. Enough for me to believe I can do an eyeball test, but it has to be interesting that since the numbers said Zoubs was getting it all last season the coaches obviously thought something different, and/or he was getting into foul trouble. In either case I trust their opinions over the numbers.

My eyeballs caught on to Zoubs and yes it is cool to see how the numbers played out and showed before he got significant time, but they do for a lot of people who never fulfill their potential so we can't use that theory on every player.

Remember too, that last night was just ONE game. Just because Miles had great numbers and didn't pass the eyeball test is neither a condemnation of his season or his talent. Players can have ineffective games statistically and they can also have games where it seems they did well statistically but did not. Either way, we can't say anything definitive. The numbers are not a large enough sample size to do that, and frankly neither is the eye ball test. I would feel very safe in saying Miles didn't pass the eye ball test and it's alright that the numbers don't support that assertion. But let's see what the rest of the season tells us before we crown one as right and one as wrong for him.

[JayZee]

Agree. Boxing out seems to be a lost art. Other posters have commented on our Big's needing to be stronger on grabbing and controlling boards - boxing out helps with that too.

I agree with this. Shelden and Boozer in particular seemed always to be in the right place for rebounds, and much of this had to do with their box out skills IMO.

I'm wondering if there is a combination of the last year's strategy of using the bigs for screening and rebounding and just the overwhelming talent on the perimeter that will keep us from more aggressively using the Plums on offense.

I did notice on the first? play after half, we aggressively posted up Mason and he delivered a quick bucket. I'd like to see some more aggressive calls to setup the plums, especially the way JayWill used to deliver to a perfectly positioned Boozer for a dunk. If this team can force others to guard the middle, the perimeter will just be that much more open.

[Kedsy]

We could go back and forth on this forever. But I'll say this:

A. I don't claim to be an expert, if you are then that's great. I would trust the coaching staff to make the decisions not myself. What I see I base off experience, but I trust the eyes of the coaching staff over anyone's numbers any day.

B. That being said I'm a numbers guy (actually my profression is data analysis). So it's ironic I'm holding this position, but it can be true. You don't have to sell me on numbers, but coaches go with eye balls tests. I watch a lot of basketball and have played some. Enough for me to believe I can do an eyeball test, but it has to be interesting that since the numbers said Zoubs was getting it all last season the coaches obviously thought something different, and/or he was getting into foul trouble. In either case I trust their opinions over the numbers.

My eyeballs caught on to Zoubs and yes it is cool to see how the numbers played out and showed before he got significant time, but they do for a lot of people who never fulfill their potential so we can't use that theory on every player.

Well, in Z's case you hit it on the head in that he was getting into foul trouble. At some point he figured out how to avoid the fouls, and that may correspond to when he also started passing the eye test. It's even possible that the two were related and that once he started passing the eye test, the officials began to give him more of the benefit of the doubt.

With most other players for whom the numbers argue they are better than the eyes think, I would suggest that they probably are, in fact better. But if they don't "fulfill their potential" then something held them back (like fouls for Z). Doesn't mean the numbers are wrong.

The coaches use both eyes and numbers, but with both their eyes and the numbers they are often looking for very different things than fans or even many commentators. It takes a very discerning eye and/or unconventional statistics to see success on the defensive end for example, or to see a player helping other players score using screens or proper spacing/positioning, etc. The pass that sets up an assist often doesn't look like much and never appears in the box score. And so on.

You started by linking to an unknown blogger grading the players via the eye test and ended by saying you trust the eyes and opinions of the coaching staff. I haven't spoken to anybody on the coaching staff, but I very much doubt they would give Miles the same low grade as the writer of that article.


Remember too, that last night was just ONE game. Just because Miles had great numbers and didn't pass the eyeball test is neither a condemnation of his season or his talent. Players can have ineffective games statistically and they can also have games where it seems they did well statistically but did not. Either way, we can't say anything definitive. The numbers are not a large enough sample size to do that, and frankly neither is the eye ball test. I would feel very safe in saying Miles didn't pass the eye ball test and it's alright that the numbers don't support that assertion. But let's see what the rest of the season tells us before we crown one as right and one as wrong for him.

I completely agree that one game is waaaaaay too small a sample size to make any definitive statements.

[mr. synellinden]

Remember too, that last night was just ONE game. Just because Miles had great numbers and didn't pass the eyeball test is neither a condemnation of his season or his talent. Players can have ineffective games statistically and they can also have games where it seems they did well statistically but did not. Either way, we can't say anything definitive. The numbers are not a large enough sample size to do that, and frankly neither is the eye ball test. I would feel very safe in saying Miles didn't pass the eye ball test and it's alright that the numbers don't support that assertion. But let's see what the rest of the season tells us before we crown one as right and one as wrong for him.

Kyle Singler shot 0 for 10 in the Regional Final last year against Baylor. Just something to keep in mind when you try to make judgments based on performance in one game.

[Orange&BlackSheep]

Speaking of margins of victory, here are the largest against Princeton since 1946:

38 points vs. Seton Hall in 2007 (11-17 Princeton team, 2-12 Ivy)
37 points vs. Duke yesterday (1-1 Princeton team picked to win the Ivy)
37 points vs. Duke in 2000 (16-11 Princeton team, 11-3 Ivy)
36 points vs. Duke in 1979 (15-15 Princeton team, 11-4 Ivy)

Nobody else has beaten Princeton by 35 or more points in over 60 years.

I think the mods need to start looking at this portion of this thread for some clean up. :mad:

[stickdog]

I think the mods need to start looking at this portion of this thread for some clean up. :mad:

Don't worry. It's all driven by Ivy envy. :cool:

[vabombers]

Well, in Z's case you hit it on the head in that he was getting into foul trouble. At some point he figured out how to avoid the fouls, and that may correspond to when he also started passing the eye test. It's even possible that the two were related and that once he started passing the eye test, the officials began to give him more of the benefit of the doubt.

With most other players for whom the numbers argue they are better than the eyes think, I would suggest that they probably are, in fact better. But if they don't "fulfill their potential" then something held them back (like fouls for Z). Doesn't mean the numbers are wrong.


The coaches use both eyes and numbers, but with both their eyes and the numbers they are often looking for very different things than fans or even many commentators. It takes a very discerning eye and/or unconventional statistics to see success on the defensive end for example, or to see a player helping other players score using screens or proper spacing/positioning, etc. The pass that sets up an assist often doesn't look like much and never appears in the box score. And so on.

You started by linking to an unknown blogger grading the players via the eye test and ended by saying you trust the eyes and opinions of the coaching staff. I haven't spoken to anybody on the coaching staff, but I very much doubt they would give Miles the same low grade as the writer of that article.



I completely agree that one game is waaaaaay too small a sample size to make any definitive statements.

You may very well be right. Perhaps Coach K and the staff think Miles performed better than that grade. I dont know their real opinion but I would take it over mine or the bloggers any day. Mostly because their opinions are based off much more than the game. That being said it's not wrong in my opinion to grade him that way for this ONE game nor to discount the writer just for not knowing him. I based my conclusions on what I read. To disagree with them is quite alright.

[vabombers]

You may very well be right. Perhaps Coach K and the staff think Miles performed better than that grade. I dont know their real opinion but I would take it over mine or the bloggers any day. Mostly because their opinions are based off much more than the game. That being said it's not wrong in my opinion to grade him that way for this ONE game nor to discount the writer just for not knowing him. I based my conclusions on what I read. To disagree with them is quite alright.

That being said. Looking at Zoubs fouls is not at all different from the eye test. Actually, that is a factor of the eye test. Something that can't be predicted or told completely through numbers. (Types of fouls and reasons and intelligence and referees) If someone had taken Zoubek projecting his numbers they would have been dissapointed because they wouldn't have panned out before he straightened out the other parts of his game. Although you are correct it does take a very discerning eye that's why there are coaches, and also why that view can not be dismissed even in the company of conflicting numbers. Coach K surely makes use of both numbers and the eye test. No doubt about that. I've been around a lot of good coaches and never met one who thought the two were mutually exclusive. Numbers are great for measuring potential and projectability and well devised numbers can even tell a story about unperceived value, but if they aren't held hand in hand with an eye test atleast then that logic will come up faulty. (Unless ofcourse we are competing for a fantasy football title and not a real national championship where the intangible factors Coach K talks about play such a big role.)

[BD80]

... With most other players for whom the numbers argue they are better than the eyes think, I would suggest that they probably are, in fact better. .... Doesn't mean the numbers are wrong.

The coaches use both eyes and numbers, but with both their eyes and the numbers they are often looking for very different things than fans or even many commentators. It takes a very discerning eye and/or unconventional statistics to see success on the defensive end for example, or to see a player helping other players score using screens or proper spacing/positioning, etc. The pass that sets up an assist often doesn't look like much and never appears in the box score. And so on.

... I completely agree that one game is waaaaaay too small a sample size to make any definitive statements.

I would submit the +/- numbers can be extremely misleading over a small sample, and can generally be misleading depending on who else is in the game. A great example is Miles' number and Seth's and Dre's shooting. Both sharpshooters missed their first couple tries (Miles was yanked early) but then hit their next several (Miles back in). Bingo, huge swing in +/- in just a few possessions.

[vabombers]

That's an excellent point. I would have looked at how much time Miles was in there with the starting backcourt Kyrie, Nolan and Kyle as opposed to the other bigs too. But either way, it's valid.

[Devilsfan]

It took Zoubs 3 1/2 years to dominate in the paint and boy was it worth the wait. Miles is only a Junior, so I guess we need to be a little patient.

[Bob Green]

That's an excellent point. I would have looked at how much time Miles was in there with the starting backcourt Kyrie, Nolan and Kyle as opposed to the other bigs too. But either way, it's valid.

The starting line-up was used three times and ended with a plus/minus of +12.


Lineups (Score, times used, margin)
Irving-Smith-Singler-Mason-Miles (23-11, 3x, +12)

As has been mentioned multiple times in the +/- thread, one game is too small of a sample size to conclude anything. Once we have +/- data from a dozen games, we can take a reasonable look at the various line-ups to see which are consistently outscoring our opponents.

[Newton_14]

The starting line-up was used three times and ended with a plus/minus of +12.



As has been mentioned multiple times in the +/- thread, one game is too small of a sample size to conclude anything. Once we have +/- data from a dozen games, we can take a reasonable look at the various line-ups to see which are consistently outscoring our opponents.

I agree Bob. After having seen all of the games thus far, I am not worried about Miles at all. Like Lance, Miles seems to have an ability to have a positive impact out there without putting up a lot of stats. With the scoring ability we have in the guards and wings, it puts much less pressure on our bigs to have to score. It's not like we are running every other play for Miles. He just did not get a lot of opportunities to score last night. He is and will be fine out there imo.

As for Mason, I thought he had a good game last night. Mason made several good plays last night, especially on offense. He created numerous scoring opportunities for his teammates. He also took the ball to the hole with authority a couple of times. Mason is well beyond where he was last year. When he is on the court, it is apparent that the first thing on his mind is setting up a teammate for a score. Even in the summer league this year where most people throw team ball out the window, over and over again Mason was distributing the ball and getting an assist or making the pass prior to the assist pass.

He is becoming a better rebounder as well. Still has a long way to go but missing several of the early games last year hurt his development and the early season games this year will help him make up for some of that. The highlight dunks will come. We have already seen several of those from him and Miles in the other games that were not on tv.

Don't give up on them after 1 game...

[lotusland]

I started to begin a new thread but I'll let the mods decide if this should remain in the Princeton thread

As far as this argument goes I'll make these points and then try to let it go and just enjoy the season. Back in the Spring several of you high pitchfork count guys scoffed at the notion that Kyle would play allot of 4 to free up minutes for our talented guards. Someone said and you all parroted that K had already spoken on the issue saying Kyle would remain a 3 and that was the end of the argument. I never actually saw his comment but I'll accept that he said something to that affect in the wake of the NC as he was preparing for his Summer gig with Team USA.

Even so it was as clear then as it is now that Kyle is the best 4 on this team. He is also the best 3 and since he is the only true 3 on the team (I actually think Josh is more of a true 3 but he won't play much this year) Kyle will definitely start at three and play major minutes there.

Since the Spring Kyle has added strength and weight and stated that he wants to play whatever position helps the team win. A couple of the guards have stated that they aren't worried about minutes on the perimeter because Kyle can slide down to the 4 to free up minutes. I don't think they just made that up so I'm sure the coaches made that known to put their minds at ease which was smart.

Now I hear some back-pedaling from those of you who scoffed back in the Spring and I'm glad to see that because we're all Duke fans so obviously we agree on the most important points!

With that said I want to point out that the regulars on here like to maintain an echo-chamber of "group think" sometimes and you just aren't too welcoming to new and different opinions. One Duke website calls this forum "antiseptic" which is somewhat true. So if the owners, mods and regulars want to keep the conversation just between "friends" I suppose that is your right but if you want some new and different views from time to time you should try to be a little more welcoming. Perhaps awarding pitchforks for posts that agree with your view is not the best way to go about that.

[MChambers]

With that said I want to point out that the regulars on here like to maintain an echo-chamber of "group think" sometimes and you just aren't too welcoming to new and different opinions. One Duke website calls this forum "antiseptic" which is somewhat true. So if the owners, mods and regulars want to keep the conversation just between "friends" I suppose that is your right but if you want some new and different views from time to time you should try to be a little more welcoming. Perhaps awarding pitchforks for posts that agree with your view is not the best way to go about that.
I actually think there is a fairly good diversity of opinion here. I also value the fact that most posters bring some evidence to support their views, rather than just voicing unsupported opinions. Yes, some people do get criticized when they voice an opinion that is not conventional wisdom here, but it usually because they have no evidence to support their opinion.

[Jderf]

[...]Now I hear some back-pedaling from those of you who scoffed back in the Spring and I'm glad to see that because we're all Duke fans so obviously we agree on the most important points!

With that said I want to point out that the regulars on here like to maintain an echo-chamber of "group think" sometimes and you just aren't too welcoming to new and different opinions. One Duke website calls this forum "antiseptic" which is somewhat true. So if the owners, mods and regulars want to keep the conversation just between "friends" I suppose that is your right but if you want some new and different views from time to time you should try to be a little more welcoming. Perhaps awarding pitchforks for posts that agree with your view is not the best way to go about that.

I think this post is excessively polemical. The 3-or-4 debate which occurred at the end of last spring seemed to me to be a good-spirited discussion with many strong points on all sides. The debate was never couched in black and white terms such as "Kyle will be a 3" or "Kyle will be a 4." Rather, it was about where he would spend the most time. When you have the most versatile player in the country, you don't pigeonhole him into a single position.

There was no "echo-chamber" trying desperately to safeguard a bunch of insulated opinions. It was very much an open debate. In fact, the issue is actually still open, as we are only one game into the season. No reason to start trumpeting the victory horns for a battle that never happened.

[COYS]

I started to begin a new thread but I'll let the mods decide if this should remain in the Princeton thread

As far as this argument goes I'll make these points and then try to let it go and just enjoy the season. Back in the Spring several of you high pitchfork count guys scoffed at the notion that Kyle would play allot of 4 to free up minutes for our talented guards. Someone said and you all parroted that K had already spoken on the issue saying Kyle would remain a 3 and that was the end of the argument. I never actually saw his comment but I'll accept that he said something to that affect in the wake of the NC as he was preparing for his Summer gig with Team USA.

Even so it was as clear then as it is now that Kyle is the best 4 on this team. He is also the best 3 and since he is the only true 3 on the team (I actually think Josh is more of a true 3 but he won't play much this year) Kyle will definitely start at three and play major minutes there.

Since the Spring Kyle has added strength and weight and stated that he wants to play whatever position helps the team win. A couple of the guards have stated that they aren't worried about minutes on the perimeter because Kyle can slide down to the 4 to free up minutes. I don't think they just made that up so I'm sure the coaches made that known to put their minds at ease which was smart.

Now I hear some back-pedaling from those of you who scoffed back in the Spring and I'm glad to see that because we're all Duke fans so obviously we agree on the most important points!

With that said I want to point out that the regulars on here like to maintain an echo-chamber of "group think" sometimes and you just aren't too welcoming to new and different opinions. One Duke website calls this forum "antiseptic" which is somewhat true. So if the owners, mods and regulars want to keep the conversation just between "friends" I suppose that is your right but if you want some new and different views from time to time you should try to be a little more welcoming. Perhaps awarding pitchforks for posts that agree with your view is not the best way to go about that.

I actually think most of the knowledgeable posters believed that, barring foul trouble or injury, Duke would play Kyle at the 3 for the majority of the time but he would also spend some time at the 4. I don't think anyone ever said Kyle would never, ever, ever play the 4. Also, while it is a small sample size and may change as the season progresses, the +/- stats for the Princeton game indicate that the bigger lineup was a better lineup for one night. We'll see how this changes as the season progresses.

Also, as someone who is relatively new to this board (at least compared to a number of others), I have always found the level of discussion to be extremely sophisticated. The board is quick to embrace newcomers who make well-articulated and substantiated posts. The board also does not let anyone get away with stating unsupported opinions as facts. Maintaining a high level of discussion on an internet forum where anyone can join and post anonymously is no small task. The mods and others who maintain this board have done a magnificent job maintaining the atmosphere of DBR as it has grown. Is it perfect? No. Should some things be changed? Perhaps. However, the dedication the DBR community has shown to encouraging articulate and substantiated posts is the most unique quality of this board.

[airowe]

When I was disagreeing with people on the 3/4 debate it was always disputing the fact that Kyle would start at the 3. That was not my opinion.

My opinion has always been that Kyle will play anywhere from 5-10 mpg at the 4 when the thick of the schedule starts (honestly that's pretty soon, but hasn't happened yet.)

I think this place is very welcoming to opposing viewpoints if they're supported by evidence. Vabombers for example has done a very good job of backing up his opinions with solid reasoning.

[hq2]

I'd say Kyle will play 10-15 minutes a game at 4 for a simple reason; Andre will probably play 20-25 at 3, so Kyle would have to slide over some. Once the coaches see how much Andre does out there vs. what would happen if one of the bigs were given the minutes, they'll have to keep him out there. That puts Kyle at 4 with one of the Plumlees at center, a slightly smaller, but quicker and better shooting lineup.

[InSpades]

There were definitely some opinions expressed along the lines of "Kyle didn't come back to Duke to play the 4" and "Coach wouldn't put Kyle at the 4 when he's going to play the 3 at the next level". These are the opinions I found somewhat offensive personally... I'm sure Kyle would do whatever it took for the team to win (ditto for Coach).

My opinion was always that there weren't enough minutes for the backcourt guys if Kyle plays most of his time at the 3. If you assume Kyle and Nolan both play 30+ minutes per game (they played 35+ last year, we'll give them like 32 maybe?) and then Kyrie is going to play atleast 25. You've already taken up 89 of the 120 minutes available at the 1-3 spots.

You also leave 80 minutes to be played by the "bigs". It would be nice if Mason and Miles could each get like 25 minutes per game but realistically they will fall short of that (Lance got 25 last year, Zoubs was actually around 19). Let's give them each like 22? Which leaves 36 minutes for the other bigs. So we have:

Ryan and Josh: 36 minutes
Tyler, Seth and Andre: 31 minutes

It just seems way off. I would expect Seth and Andre to play more than Ryan and Josh and in order to get that to happen you need to start taking minutes away from the "bigs" to give to the "littles" by playing Kyle at the 4. If you want to give Seth and Andre each 20 per game and Tyler 5 per game then Kyle needs to play 14 minutes at the 4. That leaves Ryan and Josh with about 22 minutes combined which doesn't seem unrealistic.

Obviously everything said above is just ballpark. It will all depend on the level of opponent and tightness of the game (I'd expect Kyle and Nolan to play more than 32 in big games this year). Ryan could steal some Plumlee minutes if he performs well. Seth could steal some of Andre's minutes. But I think the above is somewhat realistic.

In summary I would expect Kyle to play about an equal amount at the 3 and the 4 this year. He'll get more time there if Seth and Andre step it up, less time there if Ryan and Plumless step it up more.

[DevilHorns]

For anybody who missed any part of the game against Princeton, just a friendly reminder that you can re-watch any recent ESPN televised game on ESPN3.com (as long as it's carried by your internet provider; I have verizon and it works). Just click the 'replay' tab and select the game you want to watch.

[COYS]

There were definitely some opinions expressed along the lines of "Kyle didn't come back to Duke to play the 4" and "Coach wouldn't put Kyle at the 4 when he's going to play the 3 at the next level". These are the opinions I found somewhat offensive personally... I'm sure Kyle would do whatever it took for the team to win (ditto for Coach).

My opinion was always that there weren't enough minutes for the backcourt guys if Kyle plays most of his time at the 3. If you assume Kyle and Nolan both play 30+ minutes per game (they played 35+ last year, we'll give them like 32 maybe?) and then Kyrie is going to play atleast 25. You've already taken up 89 of the 120 minutes available at the 1-3 spots.

You also leave 80 minutes to be played by the "bigs". It would be nice if Mason and Miles could each get like 25 minutes per game but realistically they will fall short of that (Lance got 25 last year, Zoubs was actually around 19). Let's give them each like 22? Which leaves 36 minutes for the other bigs. So we have:

Ryan and Josh: 36 minutes
Tyler, Seth and Andre: 31 minutes

It just seems way off. I would expect Seth and Andre to play more than Ryan and Josh and in order to get that to happen you need to start taking minutes away from the "bigs" to give to the "littles" by playing Kyle at the 4. If you want to give Seth and Andre each 20 per game and Tyler 5 per game then Kyle needs to play 14 minutes at the 4. That leaves Ryan and Josh with about 22 minutes combined which doesn't seem unrealistic.

Obviously everything said above is just ballpark. It will all depend on the level of opponent and tightness of the game (I'd expect Kyle and Nolan to play more than 32 in big games this year). Ryan could steal some Plumlee minutes if he performs well. Seth could steal some of Andre's minutes. But I think the above is somewhat realistic.

In summary I would expect Kyle to play about an equal amount at the 3 and the 4 this year. He'll get more time there if Seth and Andre step it up, less time there if Ryan and Plumless step it up more.

To be fair to those like myself who contend that Kyle will still play primarily at the 3 with 10-12 minutes at the 4, most of the people who used evidence to back up their opinion on Kyle's position this year quoted K and others on the staff who said that the starting lineup would be Mason, Miles, Kyle, Nolan, and Kyrie and that they expected big things from the Plumbros plus an expanded role for Ryan. A very small subset made the claims you referenced above.

As for the minutes breakdown, I agree that we will see a battle waged between Ryan and Josh on one side and Andre and Seth on the other to earn minutes and dictate how often Duke goes small or big. Ultimately, however, I think this battle is fought on the defensive end rather than on offense. Duke will always have enough offense on the court to score points. In the next couple games I will be looking to see how the defense looks when Andre is in at the three. Do we have enough rebounding? Does the size disadvantage hurt our ability to challenge shots? Is the smaller team actually more effective than the larger lineup on the offensive end (fewer screeners, fewer offensive boards, fewer post players to occupy the other team's shot blockers)? The plus/minus stats from the Princeton game indicate that the offense and defense was actually stronger when Kyle was playing the 3. However, one game isn't large enough to draw any conclusions yet. Andre has clearly picked up his game and will get minutes no matter what. I think the defensive end is where we'll learn how many minutes he will demand at the 3.

[sagegrouse]

I'd say Kyle will play 10-15 minutes a game at 4 for a simple reason; Andre will probably play 20-25 at 3, so Kyle would have to slide over some. Once the coaches see how much Andre does out there vs. what would happen if one of the bigs were given the minutes, they'll have to keep him out there. That puts Kyle at 4 with one of the Plumlees at center, a slightly smaller, but quicker and better shooting lineup.

Here's a sequence adding to 200 minutes that may make sense:

30-30-25-25-20-20-20-15-10-5

And one plausible assignment of names:

a. In a deep team no one averages more than 30 mins., and Kyle and Nolan average that.
b. Los Plumlees come in at 20-25 because of depth, rotation and fouls.
c. Kyrie plays 25.
d. Andre and Seth each play 20.
e. Ryan gets 15.
f. Josh and Tyler get 5 and 10 or 10 and 5.

That assignment of numbers implies that Kyle gets 10-15 minutes with only one big guy on the court. This -- I guess -- would mean that Dre spends 10-15 mins. at the wing.

Well that's enough speculation for now.

sagegrouse

[InSpades]

To be fair to those like myself who contend that Kyle will still play primarily at the 3 with 10-12 minutes at the 4, most of the people who used evidence to back up their opinion on Kyle's position this year quoted K and others on the staff who said that the starting lineup would be Mason, Miles, Kyle, Nolan, and Kyrie and that they expected big things from the Plumbros plus an expanded role for Ryan. A very small subset made the claims you referenced above.


An expanded role for Ryan could mean as little as 10 minutes per game (if he plays 12 minutes per game he's doubling his court time from last year). Zoubs did "big things" last year in less than 19 minutes per game. I don't think these things preclude Kyle from playing lots of minutes at the 4.

It will of course come down to effectiveness at both ends of the floor. I have a lot more faith in Seth and Andre earning expanded minutes than I do any of the bigs (though Ryan looked significantly better in game 1 than he did last year). Regardless I don't think Duke can really go wrong. It's an embarassment of riches in a lot of ways. Tyler, Seth, Andre, Josh and Ryan would be a very good starting 5 for many of the teams we play this year.

[stickdog]

Even so it was as clear then as it is now that Kyle is the best 4 on this team.


Scoring differential when Singler played the 4:

Duke 35, Princeton 26 +9

Scoring differential when two of Plum1, Plum2, Kelly and Hairston played the 4 & 5:

Duke 62, Princeton 34 +28

I welcome your thoughts on this.

[vabombers]

I agree Bob. After having seen all of the games thus far, I am not worried about Miles at all. Like Lance, Miles seems to have an ability to have a positive impact out there without putting up a lot of stats. With the scoring ability we have in the guards and wings, it puts much less pressure on our bigs to have to score. It's not like we are running every other play for Miles. He just did not get a lot of opportunities to score last night. He is and will be fine out there imo.

As for Mason, I thought he had a good game last night. Mason made several good plays last night, especially on offense. He created numerous scoring opportunities for his teammates. He also took the ball to the hole with authority a couple of times. Mason is well beyond where he was last year. When he is on the court, it is apparent that the first thing on his mind is setting up a teammate for a score. Even in the summer league this year where most people throw team ball out the window, over and over again Mason was distributing the ball and getting an assist or making the pass prior to the assist pass.

He is becoming a better rebounder as well. Still has a long way to go but missing several of the early games last year hurt his development and the early season games this year will help him make up for some of that. The highlight dunks will come. We have already seen several of those from him and Miles in the other games that were not on tv.

Don't give up on them after 1 game...

I agree on those points, and thanks to Bob for pulling those statistics. It's not unfair to say Princeton was not Miles finest game whether a specific stat necessarily bears that out or not, but would be completely, utterly (can't find a strong enough adjective) ridiculous to write him off or even to think he couldn't become a force as this season goes along. Evaluation can show room for improvement without constricting the person to a box that limits future performance.

[COYS]

An expanded role for Ryan could mean as little as 10 minutes per game (if he plays 12 minutes per game he's doubling his court time from last year). Zoubs did "big things" last year in less than 19 minutes per game. I don't think these things preclude Kyle from playing lots of minutes at the 4.



Of course, Zoubs ended up at 19 minutes per game in large part because he played so few minutes early in the season before his role really expanded after the Maryland game in Cameron. Counting that game, he averaged 24 mpg the rest of the way out for the regular season and the ACC tournament (ESPN doesn't have the NCAA game log readily available), even including a 14 minute foul-plagued game against Virginia. If Miles makes the contributions many expect him to make this season, he will probably average closer to the 24 minutes per game Zoubs averaged to close the regular season and ACC tournament rather than the approximately 17 mpg he averaged up until that point.

[InSpades]

Of course, Zoubs ended up at 19 minutes per game in large part because he played so few minutes early in the season before his role really expanded after the Maryland game in Cameron. Counting that game, he averaged 24 mpg the rest of the way out for the regular season and the ACC tournament (ESPN doesn't have the NCAA game log readily available), even including a 14 minute foul-plagued game against Virginia. If Miles makes the contributions many expect him to make this season, he will probably average closer to the 24 minutes per game Zoubs averaged to close the regular season and ACC tournament rather than the approximately 17 mpg he averaged up until that point.

I agree, that's why I gave Miles and Mason 22 mpg in my "prediction" up above. Of course if Miles plays as effectively as Zoubs played in the 2nd half of last year then they might just want to cancel the rest of this season (this team with a rebounding monster in the middle would be unfair).

I don't expect Mason and Miles to play as much as the senior Lance and Zoubs played at the end of last year. Do you? It would be great if they earned that much playing time but it seems unlikely (partially due to how deep this Duke team is, partially do to just how well Lance and Zoubs were playing). They could both be incredibly productive while playing slightly more than half the game.

[lotusland]

Scoring differential when Singler played the 4:

Duke 35, Princeton 26 +9

Scoring differential when two of Plum1, Plum2, Kelly and Hairston played the 4 & 5:

Duke 62, Princeton 34 +28

I welcome your thoughts on this.

I don't need to add much to make my case here. We have 2 seasons of Kyle playing primarily the 4 and occasionally at 5 to compare to Miles, Mason, Josh and Ryan. I don't think I really need to defend my statement that Kyle is our best 4 other than to look at the record. If you are arguing against using Kyle at the 4 it should be based on what we lose at 3 not 4. Kyle is our best player. I'd rate him as our best 5 if we needed him to play there. He's going to do well at either 3 or 4 so the decision is how to best use him for the team to win. I think we are stronger and have more depth on the perimeter so moving Kyle down low for "substantial" minutes gets Dre and Seth more minutes with plenty of time left Ryan and Josh given that we pretty much agree on the Plums will getting 20-25 MPG on avg.

BTW Kyle is our best back to basket scorer too although that is more b/c our other bigs are weak in that dept than Kyle being a beast. IMO Kyle starts at 3 and plays 10-15 MPG at 4. I'm comfortable watching how this plays out at this point vs. debating ad nauseam. The other bigs do not have much of a post up game although I liked Miles attempt at hooking the defender ala Sheldon even though he drew a whistle. Every big needs a good post move or two so they should work on it even though that probably will never be their primary game.

[UrinalCake]

Scoring differential when Singler played the 4:

Duke 35, Princeton 26 +9

Scoring differential when two of Plum1, Plum2, Kelly and Hairston played the 4 & 5:

Duke 62, Princeton 34 +28

I welcome your thoughts on this.

The +/- numbers are a really difficult stat to interpret. What kind of lineups were the opponents using during these two scenearios? What was the game situation? (for example, how much of each of these lineups occurred at the end of the game, when we might have been burning some clock?)

Last year (I think) someone produced a stat that showed that when Kevin Durant was in the game, the team's +/- numbers actually worsened. Based on this, you'd think that Durant was a horrible player, which obviously he is not. So while it would be really convenient if a single number could quantify a player's value, unfortunately that metric doesn't really exist.

[Kedsy]

Of course, Zoubs ended up at 19 minutes per game in large part because he played so few minutes early in the season before his role really expanded after the Maryland game in Cameron. Counting that game, he averaged 24 mpg the rest of the way out for the regular season and the ACC tournament (ESPN doesn't have the NCAA game log readily available), even including a 14 minute foul-plagued game against Virginia. If Miles makes the contributions many expect him to make this season, he will probably average closer to the 24 minutes per game Zoubs averaged to close the regular season and ACC tournament rather than the approximately 17 mpg he averaged up until that point.

Z averaged 23.5 mpg in the NCAAT, including 29.0 mpg in the Final Four (see http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/logs.php?playerid=520&season=2009-10). Having said that, I agree with those who project both Mason and Miles as somewhere between 20 and 25. I disagree with whoever said Ryan will average as few as 10 mpg -- I expect between 15 and 20 for him.

Overall, I expect COYS will probably be right regarding Kyle playing 10 to 12 minutes a game at the 4 and I think Sagegrouse has a pretty reasonable divvying of minutes. Obviously things could change as time moves on. For example, before the Princeton game I figured Andre for 15 to 20 minutes, but after seeing him in one game I look for him to be on the high side of that range or even higher. I would not be surprised to see Josh's and Tyler's minutes diminish as the season wears on, but I wouldn't be shocked if they don't, either. No one can say for certain how the season will pan out.

[InSpades]

Z averaged 23.5 mpg in the NCAAT, including 29.0 mpg in the Final Four (see http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/logs.php?playerid=520&season=2009-10). Having said that, I agree with those who project both Mason and Miles as somewhere between 20 and 25. I disagree with whoever said Ryan will average as few as 10 mpg -- I expect between 15 and 20 for him.


I didn't say that Ryan would average 10 minutes. Just that if he did average 10 minutes then it would be an "expanded role" for him. He essentially played just over 5 minutes per game when you factor in his DNPs.

[Kedsy]

I didn't say that Ryan would average 10 minutes. Just that if he did average 10 minutes then it would be an "expanded role" for him. He essentially played just over 5 minutes per game when you factor in his DNPs.

OK, but why is that relevant? Miles went from 4.5 mpg (also factoring in his DNPs) his freshman year to 16.5 his sophomore year (in a more crowded frontcourt than we have this year). I expect Ryan to get at least a similar bump if not more.

[oldnavy]

It would take an emergency of EPIC proportions for a team that has a viable, scholarship, often-McDonads All American backup at EVERY position to have to turn to Casey for minutes in a BIG game.

Not only that, but to think that 90 secs of mop up play against Princeton or any other team for that matter would somehow make a tangible difference is a little over the top...

[superdave]

Not only that, but to think that 90 secs of mop up play against Princeton or any other team for that matter would somehow make a tangible difference is a little over the top...

No, but as someone who has ridden the bench on teams before, seeing the court even for just a little mop-up times helps keep you hungry, happy and practicing hard. It's a psychological boost even if the players do understand their role is limited to practice and accept that with no problem. Never hurts to throw a dog a bone!

[MChambers]

The +/- numbers are a really difficult stat to interpret. What kind of lineups were the opponents using during these two scenearios? What was the game situation? (for example, how much of each of these lineups occurred at the end of the game, when we might have been burning some clock?)

Last year (I think) someone produced a stat that showed that when Kevin Durant was in the game, the team's +/- numbers actually worsened. Based on this, you'd think that Durant was a horrible player, which obviously he is not. So while it would be really convenient if a single number could quantify a player's value, unfortunately that metric doesn't really exist.
I agree that +/- statistics are hard to interpret, particularly for a game or two, but remember that last year Zoubs had excellent +/- numbers, even while people here were complaining about his play.

[Bob Green]

I agree on those points, and thanks to Bob for pulling those statistics.

The thanks for the statistics should go to pfrduke. I simply utilized the "copy & paste" function.

[-jk]

I started to begin a new thread but I'll let the mods decide if this should remain in the Princeton thread

As far as this argument goes I'll make these points and then try to let it go and just enjoy the season. Back in the Spring several of you high pitchfork count guys scoffed at the notion that Kyle would play allot of 4 to free up minutes for our talented guards. Someone said and you all parroted that K had already spoken on the issue saying Kyle would remain a 3 and that was the end of the argument. I never actually saw his comment but I'll accept that he said something to that affect in the wake of the NC as he was preparing for his Summer gig with Team USA.

Even so it was as clear then as it is now that Kyle is the best 4 on this team. He is also the best 3 and since he is the only true 3 on the team (I actually think Josh is more of a true 3 but he won't play much this year) Kyle will definitely start at three and play major minutes there.

Since the Spring Kyle has added strength and weight and stated that he wants to play whatever position helps the team win. A couple of the guards have stated that they aren't worried about minutes on the perimeter because Kyle can slide down to the 4 to free up minutes. I don't think they just made that up so I'm sure the coaches made that known to put their minds at ease which was smart.

Now I hear some back-pedaling from those of you who scoffed back in the Spring and I'm glad to see that because we're all Duke fans so obviously we agree on the most important points!

With that said I want to point out that the regulars on here like to maintain an echo-chamber of "group think" sometimes and you just aren't too welcoming to new and different opinions. One Duke website calls this forum "antiseptic" which is somewhat true. So if the owners, mods and regulars want to keep the conversation just between "friends" I suppose that is your right but if you want some new and different views from time to time you should try to be a little more welcoming. Perhaps awarding pitchforks for posts that agree with your view is not the best way to go about that.

Sorry I couldn't chime in earlier...

Whether Kyle would be a 3 or 4 has been argued actively both ways since he announced he was returning (and starting before anyone had pitchforks). Up 'til last month, the only outside evidence was that K said he'd be a "3", and that was well before practice began. Predicting the future is always tough. Hell, folks split hairs over who would start, and how many minutes per game a player would get - down to the specific minute, and before we even knew who would be on the team! Futile? Certainly. Fun? Some think so. I tend to not bother projecting that way; there's too much most of us can't know. I prefer to watch the season unfold and the team develop.

I think Kyle is the best player on the team, regardless of position. In some games the team will be more effective when Kyle plays with a couple of bigs and in other games with three smalls, regardless of how he may match up individually in any game.

Unlike last season, we have a deep backcourt this year, so there's less need to play him exclusively small. Alternatively, playing him for extended minutes as a big against sizable teams will lead to more wear and tear - even if he does seem remarkably resilient. (And he'll play 3 minutes and 12 seconds less each game this year than last. :p ) That's the joy of being the coach - you get to design the gestalt and you get to take the credit. Or not.

Moving on: DBR makes two fundamental demands of the membership; they're the basis of how we operate. First, bring your "A" game. Don't just toss out opinions without either backing them up with a reasonable argument or providing outside, credible sources. And do it civilly, without name-calling, taunting, or even "I told you so!" We don't want that here; we don't need that here. (If you're Jonesing to post that way, there are enough sites on the interwebs where you'll be welcomed with open arms. This just isn't one of them.) If that's "antiseptic" then, yes, I guess we are.

DBR has members who've been around for 5 or 10 years. We also have members who joined just a few months ago and already have earned credibility. We have professional, even award winning, journalists. Active bloggers. And just plain fans. And many, many more who don't actively post but come every day to read. We have a diverse community (not a pub anymore, alas) which brings diverse opinions. All well-supported opinions, presented with respect for the posting guidelines, are welcome. Bombast, sturm und drang, and bellicosity - not so much.

-jk

[InSpades]

OK, but why is that relevant? Miles went from 4.5 mpg (also factoring in his DNPs) his freshman year to 16.5 his sophomore year (in a more crowded frontcourt than we have this year). I expect Ryan to get at least a similar bump if not more.

A lot of people were/are saying that Kyle will spend a lot of time at 3 because Ryan will see an "expanded role" this year. My point is that for Ryan an "expanded role" doesn't mean that much since he had such a minimal role last year. Obviously an "expanded role" could also mean he starts and plays 25 minutes per game. There's a huge spectrum for "expanded role" when your role is rarely playing meaningful minutes.

As for a "more crowded" frontcourt. That's sort of looking at things in hindsight. Going into his sophomore year the Duke frontcourt didn't seem so crowded. Zoubs was always injured and had never really lived up to his potential. Lance was a defensive specialist. Miles got a big bump in playing time because he became a starter for most of the year. There was talk that both Plumless might start!

This year's frontcourt also looks a lot more "crowded" if you give Kyle more minutes at the 4 :). There's potentially 3 front-court players who could be 1st round NBA draft picks if you consider Kyle a 4. Last year there was no threat of Kyle taking up minutes at the 4 (Duke was more likely to need Kyle to play the 2 than the 4). I'd be pretty surprised if Ryan ends up averaging 15+ minutes, and even more surprised if that means less time at 4 for Kyle (as opposed to less time for the other bigs).

[basket1544]

At one point during the game Kyrie was bringing the ball up with Seth and Andre hot and filling the wings and Kyle was at about the free throw line. I was thinking, "Poor Princeton, how do you defend against this?" You can't go off anyone to double team our guys and Princeton (at least) couldn't defend against Kyle one on one. Then I thought of Nolan on the bench and just let loose a scream of, "Wow!" Yes, we did lose a few of Princeton's big guys under the basket and there is some work to be done, but when we get great... unbelievable.

[stickdog]

I think we are stronger and have more depth on the perimeter.

OK, then why do you think the team performed far better against Princeton with two of Plum1, Plum2, Kelly and Hairston at the 4/5 than with one of them and Kyle at the 4/5?

[lotusland]

OK, then why do you think the team performed far better against Princeton with two of Plum1, Plum2, Kelly and Hairston at the 4/5 than with one of them and Kyle at the 4/5?

I have no idea. I'll have to assume that you charted that in some reliable way that I have no desire to verify. Do you think Duke has a better 4 than Kyle based on your stats from one game? I disagree and don't think it is really debatable. Sorry but those guys are nice players and will hopefully leave a nice legacy at Duke but combined they just haven't demonstrated anything resembling Kyle's production. Kyle's jersey is going in the rafters and good part of the production that will get him there came playing the 4 and 5 position. Despite playing great Defense and rebounding superbly, until the second hald of last year allot of people would have said that Kyle's move to the 3 was a failure. He figured it out and proved himself in the end but nobody ever doubted his ability as a college 4.

[MChambers]

I have no idea. I'll have to assume that you charted that in some reliable way that I have no desire to verify. Do you think Duke has a better 4 than Kyle based on your stats from one game? I disagree and don't think it is really debatable. Sorry but those guys are nice players and will hopefully leave a nice legacy at Duke but combined they just haven't demonstrated anything resembling Kyle's production. Kyle's jersey is going in the rafters and good part of the production that will get him there came playing the 4 and 5 position. Despite playing great Defense and rebounding superbly, until the second hald of last year allot of people would have said that Kyle's move to the 3 was a failure. He figured it out and proved himself in the end but nobody ever doubted his ability as a college 4.
I'm one of those who always thought Kyle was a perfect Duke 4. Having said that, I'd prefer to see him at the 3 most of the time this year, and think your argument has a flaw.

You don't just look at where Kyle is most effective; you look at the entire team.

The problem with him being a 4 on this team, at least for a majority of the game, is that we don't have another true forward to team with him, so we go pretty small. It's not like we have Mike Dunleavy to play the 3.

[Kedsy]

Do you think Duke has a better 4 than Kyle based on your stats from one game?

Well, first of all he didn't say that. He said in the Princeton game the team performed better with Kyle at the 3 than it did with Kyle at the 4. Which is true.

Second, I think you're asking the wrong question. Nobody believes we have a better "4" than Kyle. But nobody believes we have a better "3" than Kyle, either. The question you should be asking is whether the team is better with Kyle at the 3 and a big man at the 4 or with Kyle at the 4 and a small man at the 3. And while you're right that we can't know the definitive answer after one game, the initial datapoint appears to lean toward the former. Either way, you certainly can't answer this question simply by saying Kyle is a good 4.

[NSDukeFan]

I have no idea. I'll have to assume that you charted that in some reliable way that I have no desire to verify. Do you think Duke has a better 4 than Kyle based on your stats from one game? I disagree and don't think it is really debatable. Sorry but those guys are nice players and will hopefully leave a nice legacy at Duke but combined they just haven't demonstrated anything resembling Kyle's production. Kyle's jersey is going in the rafters and good part of the production that will get him there came playing the 4 and 5 position. Despite playing great Defense and rebounding superbly, until the second hald of last year allot of people would have said that Kyle's move to the 3 was a failure. He figured it out and proved himself in the end but nobody ever doubted his ability as a college 4.

Granted, assumptions should not be made from one game, but I think your argument has a couple of flaws in it. You are correct that Duke does not have a better 4 than Kyle based on stats from one game, or from looking at his career. You could also say that Duke does not have a better 5 than Kyle, but I don't expect to see him playing much there this year. Duke also doesn't have a better 3 than Kyle either, which is where I expect he will play the majority of his minutes this year.

I also hope and expect that Kyle's jersey will be in the rafters and that much of the reason is his outstanding play at the 4 and 5 in his first couple of years. However, he never did make first team all-ACC as a 4 or 5 (though I am sure he would have had he continued to play those positions his junior and/or senior years.)

I also don't think that Kyle's move last year was ever thought of as a failure. During the first half of the year, while he was rebounding and defending very well, he was still part of our big 3 on offense that alternated with Notre Dame for being the most prolific scoring threesome in the country. I think it may be more accurate to say that as the season progressed, Kyle became more and more comfortable playing on the perimeter and by the second half of the year was one of the premier wing players in the country, so much that he is the consensus pre-season player of the year as a perimeter player.

Since this thread has turned into Kyle is playing the 4 discussion, I will say that I have been in the Kyle will play more at the 3 position than the 4 this year camp based on coach K's summer comments. I see that there isn't a huge gap between what I thought coming into the year (Kyle would play 5-10 minutes as one of our two biggest players) and the Kyle will play a lot at the 4 camp. For Kyle to play 10 or fewer minutes at the 4, Ryan and Josh would have to play more than 25 minutes per game and Miles and Mason play 45 combined. I am hoping and expecting a big jump from Ryan and am hoping and expecting he has improved enough to average 17+ minutes a game. If that is not the case, Kyle will likely average more than 10 mpg (still not the majority of his minutes) at the 4. I'm not sure 1 game has convinced me one way or the other, but it will be interesting to watch, especially with how good Andre has looked and how he and Seth look to be forcing there way to more minutes.

[lotusland]

Granted, assumptions should not be made from one game, but I think your argument has a couple of flaws in it. You are correct that Duke does not have a better 4 than Kyle based on stats from one game, or from looking at his career. You could also say that Duke does not have a better 5 than Kyle, but I don't expect to see him playing much there this year. Duke also doesn't have a better 3 than Kyle either, which is where I expect he will play the majority of his minutes this year.

I also hope and expect that Kyle's jersey will be in the rafters and that much of the reason is his outstanding play at the 4 and 5 in his first couple of years. However, he never did make first team all-ACC as a 4 or 5 (though I am sure he would have had he continued to play those positions his junior and/or senior years.)

I also don't think that Kyle's move last year was ever thought of as a failure. During the first half of the year, while he was rebounding and defending very well, he was still part of our big 3 on offense that alternated with Notre Dame for being the most prolific scoring threesome in the country. I think it may be more accurate to say that as the season progressed, Kyle became more and more comfortable playing on the perimeter and by the second half of the year was one of the premier wing players in the country, so much that he is the consensus pre-season player of the year as a perimeter player.

Since this thread has turned into Kyle is playing the 4 discussion, I will say that I have been in the Kyle will play more at the 3 position than the 4 this year camp based on coach K's summer comments. I see that there isn't a huge gap between what I thought coming into the year (Kyle would play 5-10 minutes as one of our two biggest players) and the Kyle will play a lot at the 4 camp. For Kyle to play 10 or fewer minutes at the 4, Ryan and Josh would have to play more than 25 minutes per game and Miles and Mason play 45 combined. I am hoping and expecting a big jump from Ryan and am hoping and expecting he has improved enough to average 17+ minutes a game. If that is not the case, Kyle will likely average more than 10 mpg (still not the majority of his minutes) at the 4. I'm not sure 1 game has convinced me one way or the other, but it will be interesting to watch, especially with how good Andre has looked and how he and Seth look to be forcing there way to more minutes.

I posted my last comment on my way out the door to coach my son's basketball team so sorry if I was a little curt. I just got back to watch the game and noticed that Kyle moved to the 3 at about the 4 minute mark. I'll go over these last few posts after the game and see if I have anything to add but off hand I would suggest that you ask K why he moved Singler down low so quickly when your charting showed it to be so clearly ineffective.

[lotusland]

Kedsy, Mchambers and NSDukeFan

I've restated my view from the Spring that Singler will play substantial (10-15) minutes at 4 based on our talent and depth on the perimeter. I believe Seth and Andre are better perimeter players than Josh and Ryan are post players. That is debatable but I think it is fair to say that the experts and prognosticators are talking more about our backcourt talent and depth than our front court so it’s not just me saying it.

"Failure" was a poor choice of words to describe how Singler's move to the 3 was viewed early last year. Given the personnel we had, there was really no choice so no way it could be considered a failure. A better statement is that many observers would have said that Kyle was struggling offensively at the 3 relative to how he played previously at the 4.

I’m perfectly willing to have an ongoing debate but let’s get on an even footing first. I’ve stated my view: Singler will play substantial (10-15) minutes at the 4 in order to free up minutes for our deep and talented guards. BTW Andre looks strong this year so I don’t think it is a stretch at all for him to play the wing on offense of defense.

So if you disagree I’m up to the debate but let’s also get you guys on record so we’re not just being argumentative about my view. In other words let’s also hear your different views and why you disagree and I will be glad to respond.

[Kedsy]

Kedsy, Mchambers and NSDukeFan

I've restated my view from the Spring that Singler will play substantial (10-15) minutes at 4 based on our talent and depth on the perimeter.

Well, it seems to me our "argument" might just be a definitional issue regarding the word "substantial." You say he'll play "substantial" (10-15) minutes at the 4 and I've always been saying he'll "only" play 8 to 12. It's actually kind of funny, like that scene from Annie Hall. If our difference in opinion is only 2 or 3 minutes, then it really may be just semantics.

In the Spring, several posters were arguing that we would start Kyle at the 4 and he would play "most" of the game there (and, to me, most is 21+, based on a 40 minute game). That is the position I argued against all Spring and will continue to argue against. But I don't see any point in going back and forth as to whether it will be 10 to 15 vs. 8 to 12. Our actual positions seem a lot closer than our descriptions of those positions.

[lotusland]

Well, it seems to me our "argument" might just be a definitional issue regarding the word "substantial." You say he'll play "substantial" (10-15) minutes at the 4 and I've always been saying he'll "only" play 8 to 12. .

from your June 4th post on the Josh Hairston thread:

So even if Kyle plays 10 mpg at the "4" (which I think may be a tad high but isn't an unreasonable estimate)

Here is Boozer's subsequent quote:
His first 2 years, Singler bulked up and carried extra weight to enable his body to handle the banging needed to guard 4's and 5's inside. Last year he redefined his body by dropping weight and working on lateral quickness and ball handling to prepare his body and skill set to play exclusively on the wing. This was also in preparation to play his natural position of Small Forward in the NBA. The end result of that was the Final Four MOP on the National Champion, and arguably, Kyle was the best Small Forward in college. Coming back for his Sr year he is most likely hands down the best Small Forward in the college game.

To play "significant minutes at the 4" and do so effectively, Kyle would need to transform his body back to where it was his sophomore and freshman year, and focus again on being an interior player. I really doubt Kyle is interested in going backward.

There will be times (like last 5 minutes protecting a lead) where Kyle will slide over to the 4. If it ends up he plays "significant" minutes at the 4 it means something has gone terrible wrong with the other bigs on the roster, and the effectiveness of our team defense and rebounding will not be very good.

Here is you agreeing with Boozer:
So because of both these reasons (plus all of Boozer's points about Kyle) I don't see Kyle playing more than 10 mpg at the "4" (and probably less)

here is Mr. Sumner getting into the mix:
The plan is to play 2 of Plumlee, Plumlee, Kelly and Hairston at the 4/5, with Singler moving inside during end-of-game-situations. I agree with Boozer here. Singler only plays major minutes inside if the other four bigs don't play up to snuff.

I'd say so far all three of you were off b/c Singler has played the 4 significant minutes and it hasn't had as much to do with the other bigs as the other perimeter players IMO. I'm not sure when your "10 MPG max but probably less" estimate became 8-12 MPG but it seems to be a very dynamic estimate.

[JohnGalt]

I'd say so far all three of you were off b/c Singler has played the 4 significant minutes and it hasn't had as much to do with the other bigs as the other perimeter players IMO. [B]I'm not sure when your "10 MPG max but probably less" estimate became 8-12 MPG but it seems to be a very dynamic estimate.[B/]

You're really arguing 2 minutes either way?

...

It seems to me this argument boils down to one thing: Everyone has different interpretations of what exactly constitutes "significant" or "substantial" minutes/playing time.

[Kedsy]

from your June 4th post on the Josh Hairston thread:

So even if Kyle plays 10 mpg at the "4" (which I think may be a tad high but isn't an unreasonable estimate)

Here is Boozer's subsequent quote:
His first 2 years, Singler bulked up and carried extra weight to enable his body to handle the banging needed to guard 4's and 5's inside. Last year he redefined his body by dropping weight and working on lateral quickness and ball handling to prepare his body and skill set to play exclusively on the wing. This was also in preparation to play his natural position of Small Forward in the NBA. The end result of that was the Final Four MOP on the National Champion, and arguably, Kyle was the best Small Forward in college. Coming back for his Sr year he is most likely hands down the best Small Forward in the college game.

To play "significant minutes at the 4" and do so effectively, Kyle would need to transform his body back to where it was his sophomore and freshman year, and focus again on being an interior player. I really doubt Kyle is interested in going backward.

There will be times (like last 5 minutes protecting a lead) where Kyle will slide over to the 4. If it ends up he plays "significant" minutes at the 4 it means something has gone terrible wrong with the other bigs on the roster, and the effectiveness of our team defense and rebounding will not be very good.

Here is you agreeing with Boozer:
So because of both these reasons (plus all of Boozer's points about Kyle) I don't see Kyle playing more than 10 mpg at the "4" (and probably less)

here is Mr. Sumner getting into the mix:
The plan is to play 2 of Plumlee, Plumlee, Kelly and Hairston at the 4/5, with Singler moving inside during end-of-game-situations. I agree with Boozer here. Singler only plays major minutes inside if the other four bigs don't play up to snuff.

I'd say so far all three of you were off b/c Singler has played the 4 significant minutes and it hasn't had as much to do with the other bigs as the other perimeter players IMO. I'm not sure when your "10 MPG max but probably less" estimate became 8-12 MPG but it seems to be a very dynamic estimate.

I was offering an olive branch, but whatever. I know I did say 8 to 12 at some point in that debate, and I don't actually remember you giving any hard numbers at the time but I'll accept your word that you did. I also know in all the minutes discussions I counted Kyle for 10 minutes at the 4.

But even using your quote, if you honestly think there's a huge difference between "10" (my take) and "10 to 15" (your take) then I there's really no point in continuing this discussion.

[lotusland]

I was offering an olive branch, but whatever. I know I did say 8 to 12 at some point in that debate, and I don't actually remember you giving any hard numbers at the time but I'll accept your word that you did. I also know in all the minutes discussions I counted Kyle for 10 minutes at the 4.

But even using your quote, if you honestly think there's a huge difference between "10" (my take) and "10 to 15" (your take) then I there's really no point in continuing this discussion.

HA the same folks who want to nitpick every little statement and always want evidence or even a link don't seem to like having their statements micro-analyzed. If Singler plays 26 MPG as he did against Princeton then 10 minutes at PF is 38%, 12 minutes is 46% and 15 is 57% so yes I think those are a significant differences. I'll admit that I never thought Kyle would play more at 4 than 3 and I still don't. My point was that as far as I can remember the discussion was not about Kyle starting or playing most of his minutes at 4 - at least not from me - but whether there would be a shift in Kyle's role B/C the change in personnel and depth. While your numbers are fairly close to mine, the statements by Jim and Boozer were much different and you seemed to come down on their side of the debate. The statements at that time came across in other threads like "why can't you simpletons get it through your thick heads that this how it's going to be and why do you keep arguing with the experts" so I don't mind at all pointing out that I was right. Sorry if that is bothersome to you.

[Kedsy]

My point was that as far as I can remember the discussion was not about Kyle starting or playing most of his minutes at 4 - at least not from me - but whether there would be a shift in Kyle's role B/C the change in personnel and depth.

My recollection is the discussion was entirely about Kyle starting at the 4 and/or playing most of his minutes there. I have no memory at all about your posts, so I'm talking about the general discussion here.

[NSDukeFan]

HA the same folks who want to nitpick every little statement and always want evidence or even a link don't seem to like having their statements micro-analyzed. If Singler plays 26 MPG as he did against Princeton then 10 minutes at PF is 38%, 12 minutes is 46% and 15 is 57% so yes I think those are a significant differences. I'll admit that I never thought Kyle would play more at 4 than 3 and I still don't. My point was that as far as I can remember the discussion was not about Kyle starting or playing most of his minutes at 4 - at least not from me - but whether there would be a shift in Kyle's role B/C the change in personnel and depth. While your numbers are fairly close to mine, the statements by Jim and Boozer were much different and you seemed to come down on their side of the debate. The statements at that time came across in other threads like "why can't you simpletons get it through your thick heads that this how it's going to be and why do you keep arguing with the experts" so I don't mind at all pointing out that I was right. Sorry if that is bothersome to you.
So you micro-analyze other people's posts when you offer generalities and say that you are right? I am not sure where Boozer, Jim or Kedsy are wrong here. Kedsy said he thought Kyle would play about 10 minutes a game as a 4 and maybe less, agreeing with Boozer who said Kyle was perhaps the best small forward in college basketball, and Jim was kind enough to tell the board that the plan (from Duke's coaching staff) was to play Singler as a 3, except for late in games. So now after two games where the coaching staff is experimenting with line-ups and Kyle has started both games at the 3 you are confident that you are right and the others are wrong?

By the way, this topic was discussed a lot over the summer, as playing time is an interesting topic to think about when there aren't actual games to talk about. Here is the main thread discussing whether Kyle would play 25+ minutes as a 3 or 4, with many thinking it may be in-between, but Boozer, Kedsy and I (and others) felt Kyle would be playing mostly as a 3, and I don't think any of us have changed our minds on that at this point.
http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?21550-Duke-Identity-2010-11-Big-or-Small&highlight=vs.+small


I think Kyle will play signifcant minutes at 4 next year due to the makeup of this years team. ... Foul trouble or injuries for the MPs could be another facto but otherwise Josh and RK probably avg 7 mpg IMO.
It seems odd that you are taking this confrontational tone when the only thing I disagree with you is I expect Ryan will average many more than 7 mpg, which is why I expect Kyle will not have to average more than 10 mpg as a 4. You argue that Kedsy made a big change by saying that Kyle could average up to 12 minutes instead of 10 per game, yet it is ok, when you change your mind from Josh and Ryan totalling 14 mpg to 20 mpg. Interesting.

My sense that Singler will play signficant minutes at the 4 position is based mostly on the makeup of the team and our 4 tallented guards. ...


...
Seems to me that the lineup that gives us the best chance to win may be to go small regularly with Kyle at 4 in order to maximize our guard strength. ... Someone said no more than 10 minutes at 4 for Kyle which to me would be "signficant" minutes at 4 so maybe we are arguing semantics. 10 mpg at PF and 20 on the wing for Kyle leaves 20mpg for Dre at 3. If MPs play 25mpg at 4/5 and Kyle plays 10mpg at 4 that leaves 20 minutes for Josh and RK at 4/5 which seems pretty balanced and equitable to me but that's just my hunch.

I think you are right here, as Kedsy indicated, the argument here is semantics. You feel that 10 mpg as a 4 is significant, while Kedsy seems to expect the majority of Kyle's minutes to be as a wing. There isn't a whole lot of argument here, except for

I don't mind at all pointing out that I was right[/B]. Sorry if that is bothersome to you.

[lotusland]

I'm comfortable with the position I've taken, the points I've made to support my position and the tone I've use in the discussion. You may want to retrace the various threads to see where it turned confrontational. I have nothing to add.

[jimsumner]

Krzyzewski was asked last night about starting Kelly over Miles Plumlee. His response was that Duke was still experimenting with the starting lineup, looking at different combinations. He also said that Singler was not one of the options to start at the 4. Rather he would continue to start at the 3.

[lotusland]

Krzyzewski was asked last night about starting Kelly over Miles Plumlee. His response was that Duke was still experimenting with the starting lineup, looking at different combinations. He also said that Singler was not one of the options to start at the 4. Rather he would continue to start at the 3.

While reviewing old posts yesterday I only saw saw one person who proposed starting lineup with Singler at 4 so that is consistent with most peoples expectations.

[Newton_14]

While reviewing old posts yesterday I only saw saw one person who proposed starting lineup with Singler at 4 so that is consistent with most peoples expectations.

Many people over the summer were predicting a very small starting lineup of Kyrie/Seth/Nolan/Kyle/Mason.

[JayZee]

Many people over the summer were predicting a very small starting lineup of Kyrie/Seth/Nolan/Kyle/Mason.

So what if one substitutes Andre for Seth in that lineup, with Kyle and Andre collectively playing the 3/4? Would that mean that we have a problem our "bigs"? Maybe Dre starts playing so well, and showing the aptitude to defend bigger players, that we can't keep him off the court.

It just seems that there are other possibilities where Kyle ends up being the second biggest player on the floor that don't start with the Plumlees or Kelly not performing.

[Newton_14]

So what if one substitutes Andre for Seth in that lineup, with Kyle and Andre collectively playing the 3/4? Would that mean that we have a problem our "bigs"? Maybe Dre starts playing so well, and showing the aptitude to defend bigger players, that we can't keep him off the court.

It just seems that there are other possibilities where Kyle ends up being the second biggest player on the floor that don't start with the Plumlees or Kelly not performing.

I agree with that. Inserting Andre would make that a bigger line up obviously, and I would count that as one of our medium lineups. Against current competition, that lineup as well as Andre with 2 bigs and Kyle resting has performed well.

That is the beauty of this team and having a player like Kyle. K has many options. I just feel from a defensive and rebounding standpoint we can be better with Kyle at the 3. But even there, if we are facing a smaller team, we may be better defensively with one of the lineups with Kyle at the 4.

It has come down to semantics really and the difference over a literal 4 to 6 minutes. As of right now, Kyle has played a slightly higher amount of minutes at the 4 than I expected, which again is fine. I have no problem saying I projected him a few minutes lower. I just want the team to win first and foremost.

Edit: I failed to address one of your questions. My hope is that the bigs play well enough that K can play the 2 Bigs lineup with Kyle at the 3 as many minutes as he chooses, AND that Andre/Seth play well enough that K can play the smaller/medium lineups as many minutes as he choose. That will be a dominant team.

[lotusland]

Many people over the summer were predicting a very small starting lineup of Kyrie/Seth/Nolan/Kyle/Mason.

Well it was discussed on multiple threads so I could certainly have miss remembered (apologies to GWB) and there was allot of discussion about minutes i.e. +- 25 minutes for 3 guards but not many actual starting lineups listed with Singler at 4.

Cockabeau is actually the only person I saw who posted a starting lineup with Kyle at 4. Hedevil, Devilhorns and Kyriecrazy posted that the small lineup was our best lineup so starting Kyle was maybe implied. Beyond that some people said Seth would start over Nolan. I reviewed the posts yesterday for my own benefit. I don't reccomend doing that BTW;).

[hedevil]

I can obviously only speak for myself here, but I am not backing down on my opinion that the smaller lineup will be the more dominant in the late part of the season. In addition, I have been consistent in pointing out that we won't go small until the later part of the season. I have repeatedly stated that coach K would try various lineups for quite some time until he finds a rotation that works. I have and continue to claim that Seth would prove himself too valuable to stay on the bench for longer minutes of the games than any of the bigs, eventually leading to a smaller lineup for most of the minutes of games (be it 20 min and 1 sec, or whatever it is). I know my opinion is not of the majority which is fine, it is just my opinion. For the record, I do count Andre/Seth at the 3 with Kyle at the 4 as one of my small lineup predictions in minutes.

One other statement that I have been consistent on (the most important of all) is that I don't care who the lineup is at the end of he day, as long as it's the best that we have to offer. If the big lineup gets Duke to where we want to go, then I'm all in. I, just like all of us, trust and know that coach K is the master at maximizing talent. I'm just happy that we have coach K steering the ship.

[NSDukeFan]

I agree with that. Inserting Andre would make that a bigger line up obviously, and I would count that as one of our medium lineups. Against current competition, that lineup as well as Andre with 2 bigs and Kyle resting has performed well.

That is the beauty of this team and having a player like Kyle. K has many options. I just feel from a defensive and rebounding standpoint we can be better with Kyle at the 3. But even there, if we are facing a smaller team, we may be better defensively with one of the lineups with Kyle at the 4.

It has come down to semantics really and the difference over a literal 4 to 6 minutes. As of right now, Kyle has played a slightly higher amount of minutes at the 4 than I expected, which again is fine. I have no problem saying I projected him a few minutes lower. I just want the team to win first and foremost.

Edit: I failed to address one of your questions. My hope is that the bigs play well enough that K can play the 2 Bigs lineup with Kyle at the 3 as many minutes as he chooses, AND that Andre/Seth play well enough that K can play the smaller/medium lineups as many minutes as he choose. That will be a dominant team.

I have always thought that Kyle would play mostly on the wing with two bigs, for defensive reasons. One thing that has been a pleasant surprise early on, that might make what I thought incorrect, has been the ability of Andre to guard the opposition's 3. Since he has been guarding the pre-season player of the year consistently in practice, he is certainly getting used to guarding a bigger player (and the best one in the country at that.) If he continues to be successful doing that, there may be more line-ups with Kyle as the second biggest player. I am expecting Miles, Mason and Ryan to prove to be so valuable defensively and solid offensively that coach K has lots of great options.

[Kedsy]

For the record, I do count Andre/Seth at the 3 with Kyle at the 4 as one of my small lineup predictions in minutes.

I agree you should count a lineup with Andre at the 3 and Kyle at the 4 as a "small lineup" for the purposes of this debate. However, I will also say there is a world of difference between a lineup with Andre at the 3 (who is 6'4", built well, and has shown that he can probably guard a guy in the 6'6" to 6'8" range) and Seth at the 3 (who is skinny and listed at 6'2" but looks smaller when he stands next to other players).

Part of the reason this debate was so heated in the first place was because the people arguing for a small lineup (including you, hedevil) were talking about Kyrie/Nolan/Seth/Kyle/big. Most of these small lineup people were suggesting Andre would only play 10 to 15 minutes a game. But a Kyrie/Nolan/Seth small lineup will have defensive issues against most top teams because none of Kyrie/Nolan/Seth are big enough to successfully defend a 6'8", 230 pound small forward, and those advocating the "big" lineup (like myself) had problems believing we would field a team with such an obvious defensive liability for any significant length of time. This changes if Andre (a) is capable of defending a 6'8", 230 pound SF; and (b) plays 20 to 25 minutes a game.

So while I agree a lineup with Andre at the 3 and Kyle at the 4 should "count" for the small lineup people, I also think the small lineup people are fibbing a little if they say that's the lineup they were championing.

[roywhite]

Whether we classify Andre as big, small, or mid-sized....I'm thrilled with his progress this year.

His long-range shooting appears as good as ever; he is also developing his court awareness, defensive ability, and overall energy. Based on early action, I believe he's improved more than any other returnee. (I'd be quite happy to see Ryan or the Plums challenge that distinction). What a weapon we now have with shooters like Andre and Seth coming off the bench.

[Kedsy]

Whether we classify Andre as big, small, or mid-sized....I'm thrilled with his progress this year.

His long-range shooting appears as good as ever; he is also developing his court awareness, defensive ability, and overall energy. Based on early action, I believe he's improved more than any other returnee. (I'd be quite happy to see Ryan or the Plums challenge that distinction). What a weapon we now have with shooters like Andre and Seth coming off the bench.

I completely agree, Roy. Just looking at his body language, you can tell he's a completely different player. And at least so far his defense has looked stellar. I think Ryan has made a similar jump but, like you, at this point I would give the "most improved" award to Andre.

It must be really demoralizing for other teams who are expending all their energy trying to contain Kyrie, Nolan, and Kyle to breathe a sigh of relief when two of them leave the game only to see Andre and Seth come in and have to chase them all over the earth or risk giving up a flurry of three-pointers.

[superdave]

I completely agree, Roy. Just looking at his body language, you can tell he's a completely different player. And at least so far his defense has looked stellar. I think Ryan has made a similar jump but, like you, at this point I would give the "most improved" award to Andre.

It must be really demoralizing for other teams who are expending all their energy trying to contain Kyrie, Nolan, and Kyle to breathe a sigh of relief when two of them leave the game only to see Andre and Seth come in and have to chase them all over the earth or risk giving up a flurry of three-pointers.

I wonder if Andre's game would have been that much better last year had been able to spend the whole summer in Durham (summer 2009). If I recall correctly he did not make it to Durham for a while because he had that english class necessary to graduate high school. His body fat appears down and his confidence is waaaay up. We'll have to revisit this come January to see who we think made the biggest leap. But Andre appears to be the consensus (after 2 games).

[Kedsy]

I wonder if Andre's game would have been that much better last year had been able to spend the whole summer in Durham (summer 2009).

Well, maybe, but perhaps he just needed the time to grow into his body. He was young for a college freshman.

[BD80]

... So while I agree a lineup with Andre at the 3 and Kyle at the 4 should "count" for the small lineup people, I also think the small lineup people are fibbing a little if they say that's the lineup they were championing.

Fibber? Fibber? You calling me a fibber?

Your fastuous fulmination leaves me frowning, flat-footed, foresaken, fractured, fuming, frazzled, feral, flummoxed, frivolous, felled, flabergasted, fuddled, flagitious, frustrated, four-flushed, flattened, feckless, fugued, flensed, fricaseed, fussy, and even futzed, but, as always, facetious and a bit fatuous and flatulent.

Frankly, the quibbling over who predicted how many minutes Kyle will play at the "4" is devisive. Coach K tends to play his best players the most, and to do that, Kyle will have to spend time at the four to allow for 3 other perimeter players. Seth and Dre are earning their time on the court, and it appears that will continue. I think Miles and Ryan will earn some of that time back as the season progresses, particulalry in the tournament when the games slow down and each possession more critical.

What is truly a marvel is that Coach K is like MacGyver let loose in Home Depot, an Army surplus store, and a chemical supply warehouse. With Kyle starting at the "3" and then sliding to the "4" after 5 or so minutes, how does the other team adjust? Coach K can bring waves of speed with Kyrie, Nolan, and Seth. He can place shooters at every spot on the floor. He can throw any type of defender one could imagine onto the floor. He can signal lightning attacks on the basket, with Kyrie, Nolan, Seth and Andre charging light light calvarly into befuddled infantry. It is truly a joy to watch.

And yet, Coach K seems intent on developing more weapons. Mason has the talent to be a high post threat, which requires hitting a jump shot from the foul line or higher. This will pull the defender out to give Mason room to drive (he is quicker than most bigs who will guard him) and will open the lane for the rest of the team to drive. This will be particularly important when teams start to zone us. The high post is a key (excuse the pun) spot in attacking zones, and Mason appears to be the man for the job.

[Kedsy]

Fibber? Fibber? You calling me a fibber?

Your fastuous fulmination leaves me frowning, flat-footed, foresaken, fractured, fuming, frazzled, feral, flummoxed, frivolous, felled, flabergasted, fuddled, flagitious, frustrated, four-flushed, flattened, feckless, fugued, flensed, fricaseed, fussy, and even futzed, but, as always, facetious and a bit fatuous and flatulent.

Frankly, the quibbling over who predicted how many minutes Kyle will play at the "4" is devisive. Coach K tends to play his best players the most, and to do that, Kyle will have to spend time at the four to allow for 3 other perimeter players. Seth and Dre are earning their time on the court, and it appears that will continue. I think Miles and Ryan will earn some of that time back as the season progresses, particulalry in the tournament when the games slow down and each possession more critical.

What is truly a marvel is that Coach K is like MacGyver let loose in Home Depot, an Army surplus store, and a chemical supply warehouse. With Kyle starting at the "3" and then sliding to the "4" after 5 or so minutes, how does the other team adjust? Coach K can bring waves of speed with Kyrie, Nolan, and Seth. He can place shooters at every spot on the floor. He can throw any type of defender one could imagine onto the floor. He can signal lightning attacks on the basket, with Kyrie, Nolan, Seth and Andre charging light light calvarly into befuddled infantry. It is truly a joy to watch.

And yet, Coach K seems intent on developing more weapons. Mason has the talent to be a high post threat, which requires hitting a jump shot from the foul line or higher. This will pull the defender out to give Mason room to drive (he is quicker than most bigs who will guard him) and will open the lane for the rest of the team to drive. This will be particularly important when teams start to zone us. The high post is a key (excuse the pun) spot in attacking zones, and Mason appears to be the man for the job.

Doesn't flabbergasted have two b's? But I agree with everything else you said.

Against Princeton, we appeared to be using Kyle in the high post seam in the zone, and to a lesser extent Ryan. But with Mason's passing ability it's a good spot for him, too.