Cam Newton

[JohnGalt]

Guys and Gals,

This is getting ugly. Fast. It's being reported now that two sources have come forward saying Cam and his father Cecil stated - in separate phone conversations - that it would take money beyond the normal scholarship amount in order to secure his attending that particular program. Cecil had this to say:


I’m not going to confirm nor deny nothing that has been taking place.

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefootball/story/report-auburn-qb-and-father-sought-money-from-colleges-110910

I'm not sure what to make of the triple negative, except it's looking increasingly shady on the Newton Family's side of the fence. Yikes.

All of this is happening while Auburn is enjoying one of its best seasons in history, as well. I wonder if the War Eagle faithful are nervous? There's still plenty of season for Cam to be declared ineligible...

[pacificrounder]

All of this is happening while Auburn is enjoying one of its best seasons in history, as well. I wonder if the War Eagle faithful are nervous? There's still plenty of season for Cam to be declared ineligible...

So what does Auburn do -- play Newton or sit him? If he's inelgibile, the season's already shot, so it would seem to be a no-brainer to leave him in. But, if he is ineligibile, and Auburn lets him play despite all these rumors, will the NCAA come down harder on them?

Either way, it already got real ugly, real fast.

[pfrduke]

So what does Auburn do -- play Newton or sit him? If he's inelgibile, the season's already shot, so it would seem to be a no-brainer to leave him in. But, if he is ineligibile, and Auburn lets him play despite all these rumors, will the NCAA come down harder on them?

Either way, it already got real ugly, real fast.

Well, if the situation is as represented, Auburn is uniquely situated to know whether he is or is not ineligible. Since he came to Auburn, the school either a) paid him, or b) didn't. If the answer is b) (and I hope it is), then the mere fact that Cam and his Dad asked for money is irrelevant. Unseemly, but it has nothing to do with his eligibility. If the answer is a), they're sunk anyway. But I have to assume that, unlike (perhaps) the Reggie Bush situation, the school has to know whether or not the Newtons got paid.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I wonder how (or if) this affects the heels situation. Is it possible the NCAA says "enough is enough, this is rampant", and gives both schools harsh penalties as a show of force and warning to other schools? Does the NCAA say "gee, this problem is everywhere", and give each school mild penalties while they talk about how everyone needs to evaluate it as a common problem? Does one school's problem even reflect on the other?

[CLT Devil]

Not that it is a positive indictment one way or another, but a couple of Vegas betting sites have taken the line down...it's amazing how close the handicappers come week in and week out to making a line. For them to take it down to me means something might come out soon. This one is catching fire and spreading quickly.

All that said, for ESPN and other outlets to report so much with no evidence other than heresay seems a little irresponsible. Maybe they are only reporting what facts are out there, but until I see a check or deposit made out to the Newton family I will hold off judgement.

If you haven't done anything wrong would you really come out and neither 'confirm or deny' anything? Heck no, I'd be vehemently denying everything! Seems to quack like a duck, or screech like an Eagle....

[JohnGalt]

Well, if the situation is as represented, Auburn is uniquely situated to know whether he is or is not ineligible. Since he came to Auburn, the school either a) paid him, or b) didn't. If the answer is b) (and I hope it is), then the mere fact that Cam and his Dad asked for money is irrelevant. Unseemly, but it has nothing to do with his eligibility. If the answer is a), they're sunk anyway. But I have to assume that, unlike (perhaps) the Reggie Bush situation, the school has to know whether or not the Newtons got paid.

I wasn't sure if it was EK material, but thanks for the move pfrduke.

What happens if it turns out that Auburn didn't actually pay Cam to attend, but - at the same time - also turns out Cam and his father did, in fact, solicit offers from other schools (a la MSU)? Would he still be susceptible to NCAA punishment for looking into said nefarious offers or would he sort of 'get away with it' because he didn't actually accept any money?

Is it one of those "didn't inhale" things or is establishing the proper relationships and avenues for channeling funds just as much of a no-no as actually taking the money?

[JasonEvans]

A couple comments-

First of all, regarding the cheating thing at Florida. I consider that to be totally irrelevant. I know no one in this thread has brought it up, but it is being talked about on sportsradio all over the country. I don't think it matters at all. If he cheated at Florida, I do not see how that has any bearing on his current eligibility. Florida already punished him for it (he sat out games for the Gators when he was there). Unless he is found to have cheated at Auburn, I see that issue as a dead one.

As for the allegations of payment -- I may have head incorrectly, but I believe that Auburn says it was aware of them and that it investigated them over the summer before declaring Newton eligible to play this season. If the NCAA wants to open a case into this, they can but I think Auburn already looked into it and says it found nothing.

Unless something more incriminating comes forth, I am betting that Newton continues to play. There would have to be proof of the Newton family being paid by someone for him to be ineligible. Merely asking for money is not enough, you have to accept it.

--Jason "any doubt as to whether Cam would declare for the NFL draft seems to be put to rest at this point, huh? He and his family are all about the Benjamins, I think" Evans

[pfrduke]

I wasn't sure if it was EK material, but thanks for the move pfrduke.

What happens if it turns out that Auburn didn't actually pay Cam to attend, but - at the same time - also turns out Cam and his father did, in fact, solicit offers from other schools (a la MSU)? Would he still be susceptible to NCAA punishment for looking into said nefarious offers or would he sort of 'get away with it' because he didn't actually accept any money?

Is it one of those "didn't inhale" things or is establishing the proper relationships and avenues for channeling funds just as much of a no-no as actually taking the money?

I didn't actually move it - just happened to post here after another mod did the moving. But I agree with it - NCAAF issues (like non-ACC NCAAB discussions) are generally on-topic.

I'm not sure there's a rule against asking for money.* This is, perhaps, an imperfect analogy, but if I go around to a bunch of people and ask where the best places in town are to purchase drugs, I haven't committed a crime. If he said to Auburn, "pay me $200,000 and I'll come," and they told him to go pound sand, and he came to play anyway without getting $200,000, I don't see what grounds there would be for the NCAA to declare him ineligible. Is it sketchy? Yes. Is it illegal? No.

*The caveat, of course, is that I have not consulted the encyclopedic tome otherwise known as the NCAA rule book.

[SCMatt33]

Unless something more incriminating comes forth, I am betting that Newton continues to play. There would have to be proof of the Newton family being paid by someone for him to be ineligible. Merely asking for money is not enough, you have to accept it.

I agree, there is no way that Auburn can sit Newton unless he is definitively found guilty of taking money. Auburn would be ruining a shot at a title for something that might be true. 6 months from now, we could be talking about how TCU and Boise St had their best shots at a title ruined by cheating.

It would also be quite ironic to see Auburn vacate a title because of their Heisman caliber star accepting money after openly professing their willingness to accept (though not actively campaigning for) USC's 2004 title in the wake of Reggie Bush.

[CEF1959]

If he cheated at Florida, I do not see how that has any bearing on his current eligibility.
***
Unless something more incriminating comes forth, I am betting that Newton continues to play. There would have to be proof of the Newton family being paid by someone for him to be ineligible. Merely asking for money is not enough, you have to accept it.


I don't see this as just a technical question of eligibility (though it certainly is that). I see it more of an issue regarding sleaze in college sports. And all this talk about technicalities under NCAA rules seems very ... uh ... lawyerly. Cheating at Florida, then slinking off to JC to avoid being tossed was sleazy. If he solicited pay-to-play, he's a sleaze. If Auburn took him on after they were hit up for a bribe they refused to pay, it's a sleazy program. By focusing purely on the technical side of this, the sleaze may be rewarded in the end. Where does that get us?

If this were a story about, say, John Henson, y'all would be ripping him a new one and demanding an opportunity to rip that one too.

[CameronBornAndBred]

A couple comments-

First of all, regarding the cheating thing at Florida. I consider that to be totally irrelevant. I know no one in this thread has brought it up, but it is being talked about on sportsradio all over the country. I don't think it matters at all. If he cheated at Florida, I do not see how that has any bearing on his current eligibility. Florida already punished him for it (he sat out games for the Gators when he was there). Unless he is found to have cheated at Auburn, I see that issue as a dead one.

As for the allegations of payment -- I may have head incorrectly, but I believe that Auburn says it was aware of them and that it investigated them over the summer before declaring Newton eligible to play this season. If the NCAA wants to open a case into this, they can but I think Auburn already looked into it and says it found nothing.

Unless something more incriminating comes forth, I am betting that Newton continues to play. There would have to be proof of the Newton family being paid by someone for him to be ineligible. Merely asking for money is not enough, you have to accept it.

--Jason "any doubt as to whether Cam would declare for the NFL draft seems to be put to rest at this point, huh? He and his family are all about the Benjamins, I think" Evans
Your post made me rethink my post a bit more. It does seem like Auburn looked at this and found nothing, and if that's true they are ok...as a school. But if it is proven that Newton DID ask for money, even if it wasn't received and even if was from a different school, can he be penalized? There is also the chance that Auburn is covering something up, but I doubt it.

[Gthoma2a]

My thing is he never denied the cheating, and he was found with a stolen laptop. To me this may not affect Auburn, but it should take him out of the running for the Heisman. The Heisman is about excellence on and off the field. His integrity is definitely in question from his choice to do these things while he was a student athlete in Florida. So, it may not be eligible to Auburn, but it is applicable to the other discussion. I do have a feeling that this will be proven true in enough time. The only thing that really makes me angry about it is that Boise and TCU could lose their chance at a bowl due to an ineligible team. The BCS needs to end (I love bowls, but computers are not qualified to pick the best team).

[JohnGalt]

My thing is he never denied the cheating, and he was found with a stolen laptop. To me this may not affect Auburn, but it should take him out of the running for the Heisman. The Heisman is about excellence on and off the field. His integrity is definitely in question from his choice to do these things while he was a student athlete in Florida. So, it may not be eligible to Auburn, but it is applicable to the other discussion.

I think this statement is a little naive. Despite whatever rhetoric comes out of those involved with the Heisman (whether it be voters, past recipients, et al), it's all about stats, baby. Stats, stats, stats. Unless a player is particularly out of this world dominant at a position (Woodson, Charles), there's a reason the award almost always goes to offensive players - specifically quarterbacks and running backs.

And if Cam Newton racks up the most impressive stats, he wins. "Integrity" be damned.

EDIT: P.S. I thought I would throw a personal note in that I don't necessarily agree with it, but that's how I perceive it to operate.

[tommy]

Your post made me rethink my post a bit more. It does seem like Auburn looked at this and found nothing, and if that's true they are ok...as a school. But if it is proven that Newton DID ask for money, even if it wasn't received and even if was from a different school, can he be penalized? There is also the chance that Auburn is covering something up, but I doubt it.

Since when is it enough to close a case just because the school in question looked into it and found nothing? That's what they usually do. Willful ignorance. Unlikely many on this board would accept "we looked into it and found nothing" from John Calipari -- which is his defense in the ongoing Enes Kenter saga btw -- so why should we accept it from Auburn? The school's own internal "investigation" is the beginning, not the endpoint of these things -- or at least it should be.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Since when is it enough to close a case just because the school in question looked into it and found nothing? That's what they usually do. Willful ignorance. Unlikely many on this board would accept "we looked into it and found nothing" from John Calipari -- which is his defense in the ongoing Enes Kenter saga btw -- so why should we accept it from Auburn? The school's own internal "investigation" is the beginning, not the endpoint of these things -- or at least it should be.
I'm not defending them, but if what they say is true then they are in the clear. If they actually are covering something up, you won't see Auburn play football for a very long time.

[A-Tex Devil]

To me this may not affect Auburn, but it should take him out of the running for the Heisman. The Heisman is about excellence on and off the field.

Ummm..... not sure that's the case. There isn't a community service aspect to the voting.

Anyway, this is huge, Huge, HUGE in the SEC. This is Albert Means all over again. This reeks of back room planning going on at Florida and Mississippi State (who have friendly coaching staffs) around the timing of this leak. The "Code of the SEC" has been broken: "We won't tell on you if you don't tell on us." That's serious business, and that's the real reason Auburn's booster and Gene Chizik are so angry. (Purely my conjecture, but I believe it).

Mississippi St. called the SEC on this in December/January timeframe. The SEC/NCAA asked them to procure documents. Mississippi St. responds halfway through the season. Procrastinate much?

The SEC schools all recruit in each others states and all the staffs know each other well. The boosters do to. I am of the opinion that there is a prevalence of cash payments and cheating in the SEC that goes well beyond what you see in other conferences. One of the reasons is a sycophantic press corps that only prints negative stories on stuggling coaches. You think the AJC or Birmingham News is breaking this story if they got ahold of it? Please.

Anyway, this is sad. If it's true, everyone should be ashamed, including Florida and Mississippi St. for waiting to leak it until now.

[Gthoma2a]

I think this statement is a little naive. Despite whatever rhetoric comes out of those involved with the Heisman (whether it be voters, past recipients, et al), it's all about stats, baby. Stats, stats, stats. Unless a player is particularly out of this world dominant at a position (Woodson, Charles), there's a reason the award almost always goes to offensive players - specifically quarterbacks and running backs.

And if Cam Newton racks up the most impressive stats, he wins. "Integrity" be damned.

EDIT: P.S. I thought I would throw a personal note in that I don't necessarily agree with it, but that's how I perceive it to operate.

You can call it naive, but Reggie Bush got his Heisman taken away for something that was fully uncovered years later. It is kind of odd to me to accept people at their word with no need for more question. Perhaps it is due to us not having much interest in football as a fanbase (we hope for the best, but never expect it). As another poster said, when a basketball program states that they "looked into something", we tend to ask for a complete investigation to verify that. Maybe there is nothing there, but his credibility is at zero to me. He had obvious violations of ethics in his cheating, and stealing. With these things in mind, is it that far out of the question that he requested money? Does it not make sense to consider it a "maybe with reason to wonder" instead of being dismissive of allegations against someone with a history of poor choices?

The reason he will be ineligible for the Heisman is due to the verbage of the award. Writers vote on this, and the language of the award could sway them.

[Stray Gator]

...Anyway, this is huge, Huge, HUGE in the SEC. This is Albert Means all over again. This reeks of back room planning going on at Florida and Mississippi State (who have friendly coaching staffs) around the timing of this leak. The "Code of the SEC" has been broken: "We won't tell on you if you don't tell on us." That's serious business, and that's the real reason Auburn's booster and Gene Chizik are so angry. (Purely my conjecture, but I believe it).

Mississippi St. called the SEC on this in December/January timeframe. The SEC/NCAA asked them to procure documents. Mississippi St. responds halfway through the season. Procrastinate much? ...

Anyway, this is sad. If it's true, everyone should be ashamed, including Florida and Mississippi St. for waiting to leak it until now.

1. Urban Meyer has flatly and unequivocally denied that he or anyone on his staff at Florida leaked any of this information about Cam Newton. In fact, Meyer has repeatedly stated that he and the Florida coaches support Cam, who himself has reaffirmed his affections for the Florida program and his former teammates, and his respect for Coach Meyer as a man of integrity. Auburn fans, who are understandably upset, have for the most part accepted that this controversy was not fomented by Meyer or the people at UF.

2. Sources at Florida have not only denied that they released any information regarding Cam Newton's academic record, but have have disputed the report that Newton was going to be the subject of proceedings based on allegations of academic improprieties.

Do you have any evidence at all to support your conjecture about what you allege to be shameful misconduct by the Florida coaches or administration?

[Dukeface88]

1. Urban Meyer has flatly and unequivocally denied that he or anyone on his staff at Florida leaked any of this information about Cam Newton. In fact, Meyer has repeatedly stated that he and the Florida coaches support Cam, who himself has reaffirmed his affections for the Florida program and his former teammates, and his respect for Coach Meyer as a man of integrity. Auburn fans, who are understandably upset, have for the most part accepted that this controversy was not fomented by Meyer or the people at UF.

2. Sources at Florida have not only denied that they released any information regarding Cam Newton's academic record, but have have disputed the report that Newton was going to be the subject of proceedings based on allegations of academic improprieties.

Do you have any evidence at all to support your conjecture about what you allege to be shameful misconduct by the Florida coaches or administration?

As a secondary Gator fan, I'm glad to hear this. I was wondering what Florida had to do with anything; they haven't accused anyone of wrongdoing or been accused themselves.



I think this statement is a little naive. Despite whatever rhetoric comes out of those involved with the Heisman (whether it be voters, past recipients, et al), it's all about stats, baby. Stats, stats, stats. Unless a player is particularly out of this world dominant at a position (Woodson, Charles), there's a reason the award almost always goes to offensive players - specifically quarterbacks and running backs.

And if Cam Newton racks up the most impressive stats, he wins. "Integrity" be damned.

EDIT: P.S. I thought I would throw a personal note in that I don't necessarily agree with it, but that's how I perceive it to operate.

Ironically, John Heisman would be effectively ineligible for his own award; he played mostly as a lineman (although positions back then didn't really work the way they do now).

[A-Tex Devil]

1. Urban Meyer has flatly and unequivocally denied that he or anyone on his staff at Florida leaked any of this information about Cam Newton. In fact, Meyer has repeatedly stated that he and the Florida coaches support Cam, who himself has reaffirmed his affections for the Florida program and his former teammates, and his respect for Coach Meyer as a man of integrity. Auburn fans, who are understandably upset, have for the most part accepted that this controversy was not fomented by Meyer or the people at UF.

2. Sources at Florida have not only denied that they released any information regarding Cam Newton's academic record, but have have disputed the report that Newton was going to be the subject of proceedings based on allegations of academic improprieties.

Do you have any evidence at all to support your conjecture about what you allege to be shameful misconduct by the Florida coaches or administration?

I am surmising. Admittedly. It just reeks of the Albert Means situation to me -- a similar story where all sides denied, denied, denied until a few subpoenas were served. Anyway, of course Florida denied it, but it's not like Florida is above reproach these days. Tom Penders staff denied releasing Luke Axtell's grades as well in 1998 at Texas. But they did it. And he got fired.

So if no one at Florida leaked the cheating or if it's altogether false, shame on the NY Times (they broke the story, right?). Anyway, that's less concerning than the slow footed MSU response to a document request from the SEC/NCAA. There was plenty of time for the NCAA/SEC to investigate these charges and determine whether or not Cam Newton should even be playing this year. But of course, let's wait until it ruins what seemed to be a pretty good thing.

Edited to add: I am agnostic on Auburn and Cam Newton. But if the attempted cash grabs are true, he should never have been able to suit up in the first place.

[Deslok]

I think this statement is a little naive. Despite whatever rhetoric comes out of those involved with the Heisman (whether it be voters, past recipients, et al), it's all about stats, baby. Stats, stats, stats. Unless a player is particularly out of this world dominant at a position (Woodson, Charles), there's a reason the award almost always goes to offensive players - specifically quarterbacks and running backs.

And if Cam Newton racks up the most impressive stats, he wins. "Integrity" be damned.

EDIT: P.S. I thought I would throw a personal note in that I don't necessarily agree with it, but that's how I perceive it to operate.

Before the Reggie Bush saga, I would have agreed with you 100%(or, as you put it, to be more precise, I would agree with you assessment of how things would play out, regardless of what might be claimed, not that I necessarily support that process).
But I think the Downtown Athletic Club is probably feeling a little stung by the Bush nullification, and will be loathe to award it to someone they suspect they might need to take the award away from the very next year. To avoid going through that again, I can see a significant enough number of voters just leaving Newton off their ballots and elevating James/Moore/Dalton up to take the trophy. Even though for now its just rumormongering, I think it will cost him the trophy unless he can somehow prove the negative in this situation, which is virtually impossible(and honestly, I do think he did take $, but then, my estimation of adherence to rules in the SEC has never been too high).

Re: the Florida stuff, there doesn't seem to be anything but rumors about how the information got out there, but as I understand it, the disclosure of the information would be a breach of the law, which with the FBI looking into things, have to make some Florida administrators nervous(however it came about, it happened on their watch, so to speak).

[Stray Gator]

I am surmising. Admittedly. It just reeks of the Albert Means situation to me -- a similar story where all sides denied, denied, denied until a few subpoenas were served. Anyway, of course Florida denied it, but it's not like Florida is above reproach these days. Tom Penders staff denied releasing Luke Axtell's grades as well in 1998 at Texas. But they did it. And he got fired.

So if no one at Florida leaked the cheating or if it's altogether false, shame on the NY Times (they broke the story, right?). Anyway, that's less concerning than the slow footed MSU response to a document request from the SEC/NCAA. There was plenty of time for the NCAA/SEC to investigate these charges and determine whether or not Cam Newton should even be playing this year. But of course, let's wait until it ruins what seemed to be a pretty good thing.

Edited to add: I am agnostic on Auburn and Cam Newton. But if the attempted cash grabs are true, he should never have been able to suit up in the first place.

Did the New York Times attribute the information in its story to sources associated with the University of Florida? I don't know what you mean by tossing out that wholesale snipe, "it's not like Florida is above reproach these days"; but you're making some very serious allegations of specific misconduct here. When you start tossing around accusations that not only impugn the integrity of a school's coaches or administrators, but charges them with violating the law by disclosing confidential student records, you ought to have something more than mere "surmising" to substantiate such defamatory charges.

Ask yourself this question: What possible benefit would the University of Florida or its football program hope to reap that would motivate Urban Meyer or his staff or the UF administration to leak information harmful to Cam Newton, especially knowing that such disclosures, if traced back to them, could entail a risk of criminal and civil liability?

[JasonEvans]

If this were a story about, say, John Henson, y'all would be ripping him a new one and demanding an opportunity to rip that one too.

Make no mistake, I am not backing Cam Newton here. I think the odds are excellent that he and his daddy are sleazy and they very well may have asked for money. I would not want them at my school if they asked for money, even if my school refused to pay the money.

But, based on the evidence we have so far and based on Auburn having already looked into this, I think he should be playing and I have no problem with him playing.

-Jason "I don't want unsubstantiated allegations to take down a kid and a team" Evans

[beach rev]

According to Mike Bianchi of the Orlando Sentinel, there is an 'integrity' clause regarding the Heisman.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/college/gators/os-bianchi-cam-newton-auburn-20101109,0,5867210.column

Thoughts on the article?

[Acymetric]

According to Mike Bianchi of the Orlando Sentinel, there is an 'integrity' clause regarding the Heisman.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/college/gators/os-bianchi-cam-newton-auburn-20101109,0,5867210.column

Thoughts on the article?

I tried to bring that up to people when arguing why it made sense to take Bush's Heisman, and they were having none of it. He's dead on though, the mission statement is


The Heisman Memorial Trophy annually recognizes the outstanding college football player whose performance best exhibits the pursuit of excellence with integrity.

That last bit seems to have been disregarded for a while, but its there.

[JasonEvans]

Ask yourself this question: What possible benefit would the University of Florida or its football program hope to reap that would motivate Urban Meyer or his staff or the UF administration to leak information harmful to Cam Newton, especially knowing that such disclosures, if traced back to them, could entail a risk of criminal and civil liability?

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the SEC stand to make more money if one of its teams plays in the national title game versus just playing in one of the other BCS games? Isn't there a logic where Miss St and Fla reap a financial gain if Auburn makes the national title game?

--Jason "of course Auburn making the national title game will give a boost to Auburn's program and help the Tigers in recruiting battles against Fla and MSt." Evans

[sagegrouse]

Well, if the situation is as represented, Auburn is uniquely situated to know whether he is or is not ineligible. Since he came to Auburn, the school either a) paid him, or b) didn't. If the answer is b) (and I hope it is), then the mere fact that Cam and his Dad asked for money is irrelevant. Unseemly, but it has nothing to do with his eligibility. If the answer is a), they're sunk anyway. But I have to assume that, unlike (perhaps) the Reggie Bush situation, the school has to know whether or not the Newtons got paid.

If the Newtons got paid, then I expect it was option (c): a private individual or individuals connected to Auburn. "Auburn" paying anyone under these circumstances would probably run afoul of state law.

sagegrouse

sagegrouse

[Stray Gator]

To whomever anonymously gave me the negative comment, "It's a reasonable attempt to explain publicly known facts," I challenge you to explain how "facts" can be "publicly known" when there is no evidence whatsoever to support the allegations, and the persons who are being accused have publicly denied the allegations without reservation, and no one--no one--will publicly admit that they are the source of those allegations. These are the same kind of despicable baseless accusations that we witnessed being made during the Duke lacrosse hoax by people who likewise insisted that they "just knew" those players were guilty of rape.

If any member of the Florida coaching staff or administration leaked confidential information about Cam Newton, then Florida should indeed be ashamed. And more than that, any coach or official at Florida who engaged in such unlawful and unethical behavior should be severely punished. But if their denials are true, and if no one can produce any evidence or any firsthand testimony to support the allegation that a member of the Florida coaching staff or administration leaked confidential information about Cam Newton, then the only one who should be ashamed is the person making the unfounded accusations. Unfortunately, however, people who make such unfounded accusations--as well as those who anonymously defend them on the premise that such accusations can be regarded as "publicly known facts," despite the absence of any proof--can simply proceed with impunity to continue assailing the integrity of others based on speculation driven by prejudice.

[CameronBornAndBred]

To whomever anonymously gave me the negative comment, .
Wasn't me...but I gotta say I love a mod seeing the dark side of this system. Would appreciate your thoughts here...
http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?21834-Introducing...

It's frustrating to not have a face to take on a reasonable debate with, isn't it?

[77devil]

Did the New York Times attribute the information in its story to sources associated with the University of Florida? I don't know what you mean by tossing out that wholesale snipe, "it's not like Florida is above reproach these days"; but you're making some very serious allegations of specific misconduct here. When you start tossing around accusations that not only impugn the integrity of a school's coaches or administrators, but charges them with violating the law by disclosing confidential student records, you ought to have something more than mere "surmising" to substantiate such defamatory charges.

Ask yourself this question: What possible benefit would the University of Florida or its football program hope to reap that would motivate Urban Meyer or his staff or the UF administration to leak information harmful to Cam Newton, especially knowing that such disclosures, if traced back to them, could entail a risk of criminal and civil liability?

With 30 players arrested to date during Urban Myers' watch, it's not like his program is beyond reproach. For those of us with no vested interest in SEC and Florida football, guilt by association seems entirely plausible.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/uf-gators/fl-hyde-uf-um-0915-20100914,0,948400.column

[Stray Gator]

Wasn't me...but I gotta say I love a mod seeing the dark side of this system. Would appreciate your thoughts here...
http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?21834-Introducing...

It's frustrating to not have a face to take on a reasonable debate with, isn't it?

It's not the first anonymous negative comment I've drawn, and I'm sure it won't be the last. If I get a negative comment that is deserved, I try to learn from it; if I get a negative comment that is unjustified, then I call out the critic to defend it. That's all I can do. And once I've done all I can do, it's pointless to feel frustrated. I don't measure myself by the number of tridents I have on a sports message board; nor do I allow the potential effect on any ratings to restrain me when I have an opinion to express.

[Stray Gator]

With 30 players arrested to date during Urban Myers' watch, it's not like his program is beyond reproach. For those of us with no vested interest in SEC and Florida football, guilt by association seems entirely plausible.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/uf-gators/fl-hyde-uf-um-0915-20100914,0,948400.column

The fact that 30 players have been arrested at UF during Meyer's 6 years as head coach--an average of 5 arrests per year--is indeed an embarrassing fact. (Interesting that no one criticizes Mark Richt for the fact that 11 Georgia players have been arrested just this year; but I digress...) If you look beyond that statistic, however, you'll find that in those cases, either the charges were dismissed or the player in question was firmly disciplined--in a few instances, dismissed from the program. Of course, since one of the players he dismissed from the team committed suicide, Meyer has tried to use the imposition of suspensions and stern conditions that must be met to rejoin the team as an alternative to keep the door open for those who are genuinely capable of redemption. It merits noting that Meyer does not allow those who break the rules to escape serious punishment, and that he has been widely praised as a coach who maintains discipline, and who insists that players attend classes and fulfill their academic obligations. The fact that his players have a record of arrests hardly supports the conclusion that Meyer must also be guilty of misconduct "by association," though.

[A-Tex Devil]

Did the New York Times attribute the information in its story to sources associated with the University of Florida? I don't know what you mean by tossing out that wholesale snipe, "it's not like Florida is above reproach these days"; but you're making some very serious allegations of specific misconduct here. When you start tossing around accusations that not only impugn the integrity of a school's coaches or administrators, but charges them with violating the law by disclosing confidential student records, you ought to have something more than mere "surmising" to substantiate such defamatory charges.

Ask yourself this question: What possible benefit would the University of Florida or its football program hope to reap that would motivate Urban Meyer or his staff or the UF administration to leak information harmful to Cam Newton, especially knowing that such disclosures, if traced back to them, could entail a risk of criminal and civil liability?

Just got back from dinner. Did not give the "negative comment." Kind of ignore those anyway.

Anyway, look, I get that you want to defend Florida, and it's more than possible that they did nothing wrong. Someone leaked the cheating issue, though. And with SEC football, all of the "smoke there's fire" and "quacks like a duck" phrases apply. As to your second paragraph, well, I'll respond "why does anyone do anything stupid?" It's certainly not out of the realm of possibility that the NYT learned of potential cheating at Florida, and called a source in the Florida AD that confirmed it was true. It wouldn't be the first time that it happened, and I am not sure why Florida's denials shouldn't be met with the same skepticism, or at least follow up, as any other school's denials would be. So we shouldn't consider these possibilities because Florida told us nothing happened?

[crimsondevil]

Stray, that you're being a bit defensive about UF is understandable. However, if the cheating allegation is anything more than a rumor, it's most likely that the "source" is someone who is (or was) associated with Florida - they're the ones who would know.

And do you really want us to speculate on motives? I can see two off the top of my head: take Newton & Auburn down a peg or someone unhappy with the "corrupting influence" of college athletics.

At work today I was called "benefit-of-the-doubt" guy, which is definitely more true than it was before the lacrosse scandal. I hope all the allegations are untrue, but I don't know. On the cheating, we just have to accept we won't ever know, and for the pay-for-play, we'll just have to wait and see (maybe a long time).

(EDIT: I'm adding the semi-obligatory "I didn't post the negative comment" comment - I don't even understand the pitchforks and all that anyways)

[Stray Gator]

Just got back from dinner. Did not give the "negative comment." Kind of ignore those anyway.

Anyway, look, I get that you want to defend Florida, and it's more than possible that they did nothing wrong. Someone leaked the cheating issue, though. And with SEC football, all of the "smoke there's fire" and "quacks like a duck" phrases apply. As to your second paragraph, well, I'll respond "why does anyone do anything stupid?" It's certainly not out of the realm of possibility that the NYT learned of potential cheating at Florida, and called a source in the Florida AD that confirmed it was true. It wouldn't be the first time that it happened, and I am not sure why Florida's denials shouldn't be met with the same skepticism, or at least follow up, as any other school's denials would be. So we shouldn't consider these possibilities because Florida told us nothing happened?

So now we're down to "t's certainly [I]not out of the realm of possibility that the NYT learned of potential cheating at Florida..."? Well, I can't dispute that. :rolleyes:

If you show me some evidence that UF is guilty of wrongdoing in this matter, I'll join your condemnation of that behavior. But in the absence of any basis to support your accusations, other than what you "surmise" to be "possibilities," I certainly will defend Florida and Coach Meyer--just as I will defend Duke and Coach K when they are accused of improper conduct based on mere supposition.

[77devil]

The fact that 30 players have been arrested at UF during Meyer's 6 years as head coach--an average of 5 arrests per year--is indeed an embarrassing fact. (Interesting that no one criticizes Mark Richt for the fact that 11 Georgia players have been arrested just this year; but I digress...) If you look beyond that statistic, however, you'll find that in those cases, either the charges were dismissed or the player in question was firmly disciplined--in a few instances, dismissed from the program. Of course, since one of the players he dismissed from the team committed suicide, Meyer has tried to use the imposition of suspensions and stern conditions that must be met to rejoin the team as an alternative to keep the door open for those who are genuinely capable of redemption. It merits noting that Meyer does not allow those who break the rules to escape serious punishment, and that he has been widely praised as a coach who maintains discipline, and who insists that players attend classes and fulfill their academic obligations. The fact that his players have a record of arrests hardly supports the conclusion that Meyer must also be guilty of misconduct "by association," though.

I never wrote that Meyer must be guilty by association, only that it was plausible given the tone of a program with a propensity to matriculate players who subsequently are arrested. Georgia, really, is that the standard?

[theAlaskanBear]

Stray, that you're being a bit defensive about UF is understandable. However, if the cheating allegation is anything more than a rumor, it's most likely that the "source" is someone who is (or was) associated with Florida - they're the ones who would know.

And do you really want us to speculate on motives? I can see two off the top of my head: take Newton & Auburn down a peg or someone unhappy with the "corrupting influence" of college athletics.

At work today I was called "benefit-of-the-doubt" guy, which is definitely more true than it was before the lacrosse scandal. I hope all the allegations are untrue, but I don't know. On the cheating, we just have to accept we won't ever know, and for the pay-for-play, we'll just have to wait and see (maybe a long time).

(EDIT: I'm adding the semi-obligatory "I didn't post the negative comment" comment - I don't even understand the pitchforks and all that anyways)

I could care less about the cesspool of college football (so maybe I am coming at it with bias), but my logic tells me a) that Miss St is really intent on ruining Auburn's season and don't really care if Cam took the money or not (how hard is it going to be for Auburn to win a championship with this media circus going on?) and b) it stands to reason that is Cam & father were asking for money to play at a school, would they not also have done it when he went to Florida? That could explain the leak about cheating and etc to discredit Newton and to signal that Florida cleaned their hands of the matter.

Just the conspiracy theorist's approach. Honestly I hope Cam does really well and blows every team out of the water. To have rival institutions try to take young men down in such an embarrassing and self-serving manner is disgusting. There are proper ways to go about investigations into these matters. Mid-season mudslinging is not one of them.

But in the end, I honestly dont care what happens at the SEC booster schools.

[Stray Gator]

I never wrote that Meyer must be guilty by association, only that it was plausible given the tone of a program with a propensity to matriculate players who subsequently are arrested. ...

Sure, just like it was plausible for people to believe, based on the record showing numerous arrests of Duke lacrosse players for various offenses, that the accusations of rape were credible. Do you consider the fact that the Duke basketball program has matriculated several players who were cited for DUI and a couple of others who were disciplined for cheating a plausible basis for questioning Coach K's integrity?

[Atlanta Duke]

The fact that 30 players have been arrested at UF during Meyer's 6 years as head coach--an average of 5 arrests per year--is indeed an embarrassing fact. (Interesting that no one criticizes Mark Richt for the fact that 11 Georgia players have been arrested just this year; but I digress...)

You obviously do not read the AJC;)

This isn’t a laughing matter. And it isn’t. To quote the former basketball player Marvin (Bad News) Barnes: “It’s always a disappointment when you have to go to jail.” But I cannot for the life of me fathom how a program that can be so tightly run in most every aspect can continue to see its student-athletes getting booked by the bunch.

I’ve written that Mark Richt cannot hold the hands of 85 players 24 hours a day. (For one thing, it’s a mathematical impossibility. The coach has only two hands.) But when your proud program all but clinches the Fulmer Cup not two summers after Richt swore he was going to get tougher … really, what’s left to do but shake one’s befuddled noggin?

http://blogs.ajc.com/mark-bradley-blog/2010/08/27/another-uga-arrest-all-but-clinches-the-uncoveted-fulmer-cup/

Georgia’s arrests fall on Mark Richt

http://blogs.ajc.com/jeff-schultz-blog/2010/09/03/no-excuses-georgias-arrests-fall-on-mark-richt/?cxntfid=blogs_jeff_schultz_blog

The saga of Cam Newton is just the latest illustration that SEC football has about as much in common with college football as major league hardball does with a game of wiffle ball

There are few illusions that SEC football is anything more than professional football played by 18 -22 year olds with thankfully few pious references to "the student athletes" - whether that is a tremendously greater indictment of the hypocrisy of major college sports than schools with multiple national championships in the ACC recruiting basketball players who are clearly passing through while they comply with the tiresome requirement of playing college ball for one year prior to moving on to the NBA is I suppose a different issue for a different thread

Just win baby

[DevilHorns]

Mississippi State admits contacting SEC (regarding an "issue" relating to recruitment)

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6270202/25770318


Mississippi State University acknowledges that it contacted the Southeastern Conference office in January of 2010 regarding an issue relating to its recruitment of Cam Newton.

Shortly after the initial call, the SEC office requested specific information to include interviews with involved staff from MSU.

Due to MSU dealing with ongoing and time-consuming eligibility issues involving non-football matters in the winter and spring of 2010, the specific SEC request went unfulfilled.

Some additional information was provided to the SEC during July of 2010.

Once the NCAA enforcement staff became involved, Mississippi State University cooperated fully with its investigation.

MSU is confident the SEC office has managed this process consistent with its established procedures and the university is committed to the conference’s ongoing efforts to ensure compliance with SEC and NCAA rules.

[JasonEvans]

Mississippi State admits contacting SEC (regarding an "issue" relating to recruitment)

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6270202/25770318

This makes me even more confident that this story is not going to turn into anything substantial. It is now clear that the NCAA and SEC each knew about some allegation of impropriety regarding the recruitment of Newton a long time ago.

As we saw at UNC, schools always hold kids out of games while they are investigated. The fact that Auburn did not hold Newton out (coupled with the strong denials from Auburn's coaching staff so far) tell me that these issues were investigated many months ago and nothing was found.

I could be wrong. I suppose a new investigation could be opened if there was some new evidence brought to light. But, it sure sounds to me like this is going to be much ado about nothing (of substance on the field).

--Jason "I bet someone connected to the Newtons asked for cash and did not get it-- and (sadly) there is no crime there" Evans

[JohnGalt]

I could be wrong. I suppose a new investigation could be opened if there was some new evidence brought to light. But, it sure sounds to me like this is going to be much ado about nothing (of substance on the field).

--Jason "I bet someone connected to the Newtons asked for cash and did not get it-- and (sadly) there is no crime there" Evans

I think the new "evidence" is what I put in the first post...that two individuals from MSU claimed to have had 2 separate phone conversations with Cam and his father. And in those separate conversations they both hinted at money being the determing factor...hence, "pay and play."

I agree with the last part though. It seems increasingly likely that no one was willing to pay and, thus, no actual crime was committed, despite what the Newtons were willing to accept.

It's funny and sad to me that these kids and their parents think they can get away with this kind of stuff anymore. I mean - until something more substantial comes out - it looks a though the Newtons didn't get anything. And it's STILL huge news!

[CameronBornAndBred]

Mississippi State admits contacting SEC (regarding an "issue" relating to recruitment)

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6270202/25770318
I wonder if the SEC ever told Auburn that the Newtons had already been reported to them. I would think they would have some responsibility to do so.

[Stray Gator]

Just as a P.S. to this discussion, our old pal Gregg Doyel--who enjoys berating Urban Meyer almost as much as he enjoys slamming Coach K--tweeted the following message this morning as a follow-up to his column earlier this week excoriating Meyer for allegedly leaking Cam Newton's records:

"Fair is fair, and wrong is wrong, and I was wrong to suggest Urban Meyer had anything to do with the Cam Newton record leak. My apologies."
about 1 hour ago via TweetDeck

http://twitter.com/greggdoyelcbs

And for the record, every Gator I know--including this one--thinks Cam is a great kid and a tremendous football player, and was sorry to see him leave Gainesville, and wishes him nothing but the best. And I think it's safe to say that most Gators--including this one--would love to see Auburn win the national championship.

[jaytoc]

Were you being facetious in your last paragraph? You'd probably get no disagreement re Newton's proficiency as a football player. But a great kid? Not if (and it's a big if) he engaged in criminal conduct and academic dishonesty at Florida, and sought cash from MSU and/or elsewhere, at least not in my book.

[Stray Gator]

Were you being facetious in your last paragraph? You'd probably get no disagreement re Newton's proficiency as a football player. But a great kid? Not if (and it's a big if) he engaged in criminal conduct and academic dishonesty at Florida, and sought cash from MSU and/or elsewhere, at least not in my book.

As I understand it, sources at UF have denied that there were any charges of academic impropriety against Cam Newton while he was a student at UF. And I don't believe there is any competent evidence as yet to support allegations that he or his family sought cash from any school.

As for criminal conduct, it appears to be well documented that Newton pled guilty to possession of a stolen laptop when he was a student at UF in 2008. Newton claimed that he bought the laptop from a third party for a ridiculously low price, but the fact that he threw it out the window when the police arrived to search his room certainly contradicted any suggestion that he wasn't aware it had been stolen. Reports are that he subsequently entered a pretrial intervention program that he completed last December, and the charges were then dropped. So far as I know, that is the extent of his "criminal record." I don't consider that sufficient to disqualify him from being a great kid. That doesn't mean anyone has to agree with me; nor does it mean I might not change my mind if evidence surfaces of further wrongdoing.

[77devil]

Sure, just like it was plausible for people to believe, based on the record showing numerous arrests of Duke lacrosse players for various offenses, that the accusations of rape were credible. Do you consider the fact that the Duke basketball program has matriculated several players who were cited for DUI and a couple of others who were disciplined for cheating a plausible basis for questioning Coach K's integrity?

Fallacious analogies in my opinion. No, it was not plausible for people to assume the lacrosse players were capable of a heinous crime because of a history of boorish college behavior and the occasional misdemeanor for public intoxication, etc. I read an article at the time of the Chris Rainey arrest that many/most of the other 29 incidents were also felonies. Regardless, this situation involves the plausibility that someone in the Florida program would play hardball and leak information. Seems perfectly reasonable, though I come to the discussion from viewpoint that most major college football programs are ethically challenged.

The Duke basketball comparison is absurd and isn't worth a rebuttal.

[jaytoc]

As I understand it, sources at UF have denied that there were any charges of academic impropriety against Cam Newton while he was a student at UF. And I don't believe there is any competent evidence as yet to support allegations that he or his family sought cash from any school.

As I indicated, there is an "if" involved in this analysis. But I'll go further, as I have no vested interest in defending assailing this young man or Florida - it doesn't look good.

As for criminal conduct, it appears to be well documented that Newton pled guilty to possession of a stolen laptop when he was a student at UF in 2008. Newton claimed that he bought the laptop from a third party for a ridiculously low price, but the fact that he threw it out the window when the police arrived to search his room certainly contradicted any suggestion that he wasn't aware it had been stolen. Reports are that he subsequently entered a pretrial intervention program that he completed last December, and the charges were then dropped. So far as I know, that is the extent of his "criminal record." I don't consider that sufficient to disqualify him from being a great kid. That doesn't mean anyone has to agree with me; nor does it mean I might not change my mind if evidence surfaces of further wrongdoing.

I didn't suggest he had a "criminal record," so I'm not sure why you would use quotation marks. I said he had engaged in criminal conduct, which even you seem to concede.

Lawyer to lawyer, I'll agree with you that someone who has engaged in criminal conduct of this sort may not be disqualified, ipso facto, from the legions of "great kids." But again, it doesn't look good.

[Stray Gator]

Fallacious analogies in my opinion. No, it was not plausible for people to assume the lacrosse players were capable of a heinous crime because of a history of boorish college behavior and the occasional misdemeanor for public intoxication, etc. I read an article at the time of the Chris Rainey arrest that many/most of the other 29 incidents were also felonies. Regardless, this situation involves the plausibility that someone in the Florida program would play hardball and leak information. Seems perfectly reasonable, though I come to the discussion from viewpoint that most major college football programs are ethically challenged.

The Duke basketball comparison is absurd and isn't worth a rebuttal.

I don't know what article you read that indicated "many/most of the other 29 incidents were also felonies." But this USA Today article, published Sept. 24, 2010, states that there have been

"at least 31 off-the-field arrests involving 25 of Meyer's players dating to the summer of 2005, according to a running count by the Orlando Sentinel. Many have been typical college-years brushes with the law, from alcohol possession to disorderly conduct. But a dozen involved initial charges of felonies or violent misdemeanors...."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/sec/2010-09-23-florida-football-arrests_N.htm

So fewer than half of the incidents in which UF football players were arrested involved initial charges of anything more than the kind of "typical college-years brushes with the law" that you dismiss as not constituting a plausible basis for assuming guilt when applied to another group of college athletes. And of course, in a number of those cases at UF, the charges were later reduced or dropped altogether. In fact, the same USA Today article makes clear that the arrest record of UF football players is not atypical for the student population generally:

"Major-college football programs, of course, commonly carry more than 100 players on their rosters, roughly a quarter of that number rotating on and off each season. The number of arrested Florida football players amounts to five a year. More than a dozen of the cases were dropped or dismissed.

Gainesville Police Department spokeswoman Tscharna Senn, a corporal who has been on the force for 17 years, said the arrest count isn't disproportionate to Florida's overall student body. 'Every weekend downtown, we make those same arrests across the board of other University of Florida and Santa Fe College students,' she said. 'They (the players) are no different in that respect other than their name carries more weight with the media.'"

But facts and analogies aside, the real issue here for me is the insinuation, based on the fact that a number of UF football players have been arrested, that a reasonable person could say with respect to their head coach--not the players, mind you, but their head coach--that "guilt by association seems entirely plausible" on accusations of having violated legal and ethical rules by leaking confidential information about a former player to the media, which would also mean, of course, that Meyer is lying about having done so by publicly denying that accusation.

This is disappointing to me as a Duke alumnus and parent and fan. I would have thought that folks around the Duke community might have learned a valuable lesson about the dangers of prejudging guilt based on unfounded assumptions. Isn't it sadly ironic that Gregg Doyel could bring himself to apologize publicly for accusing Coach Meyer of this wrongful misconduct, but others--including members of the Duke community who ought to be extraordinarily cautious about tossing around claims that "guilt by association seems entirely plausible"--continue to perpetuate the notion that those defamatory suppositions may be credible?

[Regenman]

A Great Kid?? Really?? I'm didn't know that I'm holding my kids to the standards of cheating and buying (at a minimum) stolen merchandies as being "great".

You're trying too hard Stray. You can use Duke Lacrosse as an example but I can use Barry Bonds, Marion Jones, Tyler Hamilton, Floyd Landis as counterexamples. This is a forum not a court of law (and yes, I'm a lawyer and I know the difference). Sometimes when it smells like manure, it is.

[Stray Gator]

A Great Kid?? Really?? I'm didn't know that I'm holding my kids to the standards of cheating and buying (at a minimum) stolen merchandies as being "great".

You're trying too hard Stray. You can use Duke Lacrosse as an example but I can use Barry Bonds, Marion Jones, Tyler Hamilton, Floyd Landis as counterexamples. This is a forum not a court of law (and yes, I'm a lawyer and I know the difference). Sometimes when it smells like manure, it is.

Okay, I'll ask again: Where is the evidence that Newton ever cheated? He's being accused of cheating at UF, but the people at UF have reportedly denied that rumor. Nonetheless, he's been adjudicated guilty here on the DBR Board, based entirely on rumors substantiated by supposition and plausible assumptions.

Maybe the fact that he was caught possessing a stolen laptop is sufficient in your view to disqualify him from being a great kid. No one disputes that he committed the offense; but it's also clear that he accepted responsibility, and was punished for his misconduct, and has moved forward with his life in a positive direction. If you're interested in learning more about the incident--and in understanding why some of us don't believe it rendered him an irredeemable criminal--I recommend this Sports Illustrated article: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/andy_staples/05/24/newton-auburn/index.html

I don't commend or excuse Newton's misbehavior. But unless there is evidence that he has committed some further offense or engaged in some misconduct since then, I don't believe he should be forever stigmatized by that one incident, which was after all a relatively minor crime involving only an item of personal property. For me, at least, there is nothing inconsistent in acknowledging that Newton committed the crime of possession of stolen property in 2008 while recognizing also that he has come back to show that he is a great kid. But that's my own thinking, which is all I said.

You are entitled to apply whatever standards you choose, both in judging Newton and in parenting your own children. If I appeared to be saying otherwise, I'm sorry. I'm really just trying to clarify the evidence (or lack thereof) and discourage folks from jumping to conclusions about the character and integrity of other people and programs based on unfounded assumptions that are influenced by preconceived notions rather than being grounded on known facts.

[77devil]

I don't know what article you read that indicated "many/most of the other 29 incidents were also felonies." But this USA Today article, published Sept. 24, 2010, states that there have been

"at least 31 off-the-field arrests involving 25 of Meyer's players dating to the summer of 2005, according to a running count by the Orlando Sentinel. Many have been typical college-years brushes with the law, from alcohol possession to disorderly conduct. But a dozen involved initial charges of felonies or violent misdemeanors...."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/sec/2010-09-23-florida-football-arrests_N.htm

So fewer than half of the incidents in which UF football players were arrested involved initial charges of anything more than the kind of "typical college-years brushes with the law" that you dismiss as not constituting a plausible basis for assuming guilt when applied to another group of college athletes. And of course, in a number of those cases at UF, the charges were later reduced or dropped altogether. In fact, the same USA Today article makes clear that the arrest record of UF football players is not atypical for the student population generally:

"Major-college football programs, of course, commonly carry more than 100 players on their rosters, roughly a quarter of that number rotating on and off each season. The number of arrested Florida football players amounts to five a year. More than a dozen of the cases were dropped or dismissed.

Gainesville Police Department spokeswoman Tscharna Senn, a corporal who has been on the force for 17 years, said the arrest count isn't disproportionate to Florida's overall student body. 'Every weekend downtown, we make those same arrests across the board of other University of Florida and Santa Fe College students,' she said. 'They (the players) are no different in that respect other than their name carries more weight with the media.'"

But facts and analogies aside, the real issue here for me is the insinuation, based on the fact that a number of UF football players have been arrested, that a reasonable person could say with respect to their head coach--not the players, mind you, but their head coach--that "guilt by association seems entirely plausible" on accusations of having violated legal and ethical rules by leaking confidential information about a former player to the media, which would also mean, of course, that Meyer is lying about having done so by publicly denying that accusation.

This is disappointing to me as a Duke alumnus and parent and fan. I would have thought that folks around the Duke community might have learned a valuable lesson about the dangers of prejudging guilt based on unfounded assumptions. Isn't it sadly ironic that Gregg Doyel could bring himself to apologize publicly for accusing Coach Meyer of this wrongful misconduct, but others--including members of the Duke community who ought to be extraordinarily cautious about tossing around claims that "guilt by association seems entirely plausible"--continue to perpetuate the notion that those defamatory suppositions may be credible?

This situation is not and never has been analogous to the lacrosse matter where there was extreme prejudice and a presumption of guilt, no matter hard and how often you try to make the case. But be my guest and have at it.

All I and some others have written is that it is plausible that someone in the Florida program leaked information, not even Meyer per se. I find it hilarious, however, that any Duke fan(and alumnus) would cite Gregg Doyel as a reliable source. So be it.

[Atlanta Duke]

This apparently is not going away

Kenny Rogers, the former Mississippi State player who ESPN.com reported allegedly sought money to sign Cam Newton to a national letter of intent with the Bulldogs, said Thursday that Newton's father, Cecil, put a price tag on his son.

Rogers, in an interview with ESPN 103.3 FM in Dallas, was asked if Cecil Newton ever told him how much money it would take to get his son to play for Mississippi State. "Yes, he did," Rogers said.

Asked how much, Rogers said: "Anywhere between $100,000 and $180,000."...

In an e-mail to ESPN.com, an NCAA spokeswoman said: "The solicitation of cash or benefits by a prospective student-athlete or another individual on his or her behalf is not allowed under NCAA rules." ...

NCAA then proceeds to kick the can in Auburn's direction

The NCAA spokeswoman said: "The decision to rule a student-athlete ineligible is made by the university, not the NCAA. We do not suspend student-athletes. It is a school action. The university can then seek reinstatement on behalf of the student-athlete and reinstatement decisions are made by the NCAA."

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5792707

That last statement is somewhat disingenuous - a school may hold a player out while the NCAA investigation is completed to avoid forfeiting games, but the idea Auburn needs to make a move on Newton before the NCAA has a role is nonsense - Auburn is all in by having played Newton this season - at this point I doubt the Tigers blink and any action will be a result of the NCAA being forced to impose retroactive forfeitures and prospective sanctions as occurred with Reggie Bush and USC. A forfeiture of Auburn wins based on an attempted but unsuccessful solicitation of a payoff on behalf of Newton from Miss State (assuming Auburn was not solicited as well but then failed to self-report the solicitation) would appear pretty harsh

[Duvall]

Another voice in support of Cam Newton (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/17872/jim-calhoun-supports-cam-newton).

[CameronBornAndBred]

Another voice in support of Cam Newton (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/17872/jim-calhoun-supports-cam-newton).

Butch Davis for COY? Even though his is a mess that he helped make? Love them moral values, Calhoun.

[arnie]

Another voice in support of Cam Newton (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/17872/jim-calhoun-supports-cam-newton).

Well that "referral" should make StrayGator proud.

[Stray Gator]

This situation is not and never has been analogous to the lacrosse matter where there was extreme prejudice and a presumption of guilt, no matter hard and how often you try to make the case. But be my guest and have at it.

All I and some others have written is that it is plausible that someone in the Florida program leaked information, not even Meyer per se. I find it hilarious, however, that any Duke fan(and alumnus) would cite Gregg Doyel as a reliable source. So be it.

Are you now backing away from the contention that it's plausible that Meyer himself is guilty by association? Because that was the plain import of the following statement you made earlier in this thread: "I never wrote that Meyer must be guilty by association, only that it was plausible...."

The only difference between those who declared that it's plausible to believe that Urban Meyer violated the law by leaking confidential information to the media and those who declared that it was plausible to believe that the Duke lacrosse players raped the stripper is one of degree. In both cases, people who lacked any evidence whatsoever other than a record of prior unrelated misconduct by others associated with the accused are relying on supposition and prejudice to conclude prematurely that the guilt of the accused is plausible.

You may dismiss it as hilarious, but my point in citing the example of Gregg Doyel should have been obvious: Given his history and reputation among Duke fans as an obstinate critic who thrives on viciously assailing the character and integrity of certain coaches without regard for the factual validity of his charges, isn't it a sad commentary that someone like Doyel has admitted and apologized for his error in prematurely concluding that Meyer was guilty of misconduct and condemning him for it, yet there are people here who insist on perpetuating this unsubstantiated smear campaign? How thoroughly and widely do the accusations against Meyer have to be discredited before the critics here admit that they may been too hasty in ascribing blame?

[77devil]

With 30 players arrested to date during Urban Myers' watch, it's not like his program is beyond reproach.


The fact that his players have a record of arrests hardly supports the conclusion that Meyer must also be guilty of misconduct "by association," though.


I never wrote that Meyer must be guilty by association, only that it was plausible given the tone of a program with a propensity to matriculate players who subsequently are arrested.


All I and some others have written is that it is plausible that someone in the Florida program leaked information, not even Meyer per se.


Are you now backing away from the contention that it's plausible that Meyer himself is guilty by association? Because that was the plain import of the following statement you made earlier in this thread: [COLOR="Navy"]"I never wrote that Meyer must be guilty by association, only that it was plausible...."

Your quote above first referred directly to misconduct by Meyer, and my response to yours used his name, carelessly, otherwise I was careful to make reference to the program. So no, I'm not backing away from anything.

[Stray Gator]

Your quote above first referred directly to misconduct by Meyer, and my response to yours used his name, carelessly, otherwise I was careful to make reference to the program. So no, I'm not backing off anything.

Just to be clear, then, because I really don't want to mischaracterize your position, are you saying that it's plausible to believe, based on guilt by association, that either Urban Meyer or someone else within the University of Florida football program illegally disclosed confidential information regarding Cam Newton's academic record?

[A-Tex Devil]

Switching gears here, if the Kenny Rogers allegations are true, this is a huge, huge deal for Auburn, MSU and SEC football. It's Albert Means all over again, implicating at least two more schools, except this time, its the family asking for the payout (even if indirectly) and not a hanger on or a coach.

You just wonder if this is an isolated incident (doubtful), or the beginning of more pay to play findings in the SEC similar to what Newton was asking. I doubt the $200K number and the idea that you could even pull that amount came from thin air. Other conferences have long seen the SEC recruiting landscape as an even worse cesspool than your average recruiting environment. And I realize that there is a "rocks" "glass houses" issue to some extent. But this is different than Reggie Bush and UNC and the other agent issues. This is Southwest Conference circa 1980s stuff.

[Stray Gator]

Switching gears here, if the Kenny Rogers allegations are true, this is a huge, huge deal for Auburn, MSU and SEC football. It's Albert Means all over again, implicating at least two more schools, except this time, its the family asking for the payout (even if indirectly) and not a hanger on or a coach.

You just wonder if this is an isolated incident (doubtful), or the beginning of more pay to play findings in the SEC similar to what Newton was asking. I doubt the $200K number and the idea that you could even pull that amount came from thin air. Other conferences have long seen the SEC recruiting landscape as an even worse cesspool than your average recruiting environment. And I realize that there is a "rocks" "glass houses" issue to some extent. But this is different than Reggie Bush and UNC and the other agent issues. This is Southwest Conference circa 1980s stuff.

I agree that if the allegations of Cam Newton's father demanding payment from schools trying to recruit his son turn out to be true, then everyone involved in the sordid "negotiations" should be appropriately punished. And if Cam himself was aware that he was being shopped around to play in exchange for payment--whether or not any cash actually changed hands--then I will certainly no longer think of him as a great kid.

[A-Tex Devil]

I agree that if the allegations of Cam Newton's father demanding payment from schools trying to recruit his son turn out to be true, then everyone involved in the sordid "negotiations" should be appropriately punished. And if Cam himself was aware that he was being shopped around to play in exchange for payment--whether or not any cash actually changed hands--then I will certainly no longer think of him as a great kid.

I just hope it's untrue or an isolated incident. There's just an air of "experience" behind these supposed cash grabs. As if people know how its done and what the market is for it. And maybe I shouldn't separate the two issues as much as I do, but to me it's much worse taking money/paying money for a player to go to a specific school than it is to take money from an agent as an inducement to sign with said agent.

[Duvall]

Well, so much for amateurism (http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2010/12/ncaa_rules_auburns_cam_newton.html). I guess it was fun while it lasted.

[Acymetric]

Well, so much for amateurism (http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2010/12/ncaa_rules_auburns_cam_newton.html). I guess it was fun while it lasted.

Yeah, unless the facts being reported are only part of the story things really aren't making sense.

From what I can gather from ESPN, his father did work with someone (from a scouting service?) to get money in return for Cam's services. The sticking point is that apparently neither Cam nor Auburn was aware of this, which begs the question of who Cam's dad asked for the money. I'm not buying this, but I think this is something that never comes to light, at least not for a long time.

[4decadedukie]

I wonder how (or if) this affects the heels situation. Is it possible the NCAA says "enough is enough, this is rampant", and gives both schools harsh penalties as a show of force and warning to other schools? Does the NCAA say "gee, this problem is everywhere", and give each school mild penalties while they talk about how everyone needs to evaluate it as a common problem? Does one school's problem even reflect on the other?

CB&B - You may wish to include UConn in this listing.

[4decadedukie]

Well, if the situation is as represented, Auburn is uniquely situated to know whether he is or is not ineligible. Since he came to Auburn, the school either a) paid him, or b) didn't. If the answer is b) (and I hope it is), then the mere fact that Cam and his Dad asked for money is irrelevant. Unseemly, but it has nothing to do with his eligibility. If the answer is a), they're sunk anyway. But I have to assume that, unlike (perhaps) the Reggie Bush situation, the school has to know whether or not the Newtons got paid.

Of course, there is a third possibility: Auburn joins the ranks of the "how could we have known universities" (think UNC), by denying that they knew and/or that they solicited any alum, booster, etc. to illicitly pay Newton, when (in fact) some individual with Auburn connections made payments. INSTITUTIONAL CONTROL obviously includes entities not immediately on campus or under university governance.

[DukeSean]

Yeah, unless the facts being reported are only part of the story things really aren't making sense.

From what I can gather from ESPN, his father did work with someone (from a scouting service?) to get money in return for Cam's services. The sticking point is that apparently neither Cam nor Auburn was aware of this, which begs the question of who Cam's dad asked for the money. I'm not buying this, but I think this is something that never comes to light, at least not for a long time.

So, plausible deniability is the name of the game, a-la-calamari. But apparently, Cam knew something when he called up the Miss St. coaches to apologize that he was committing to Auburn, but maybe that was discredited by the NCAA or it still was not considered enough blame Cam or Auburn.

The whole thing stinks, and I think the NCAA is not sending the right message here. Parents ought to be disciplined for such actions on behalf of their kids, even if it unfortunately means punishing parents via declaring their child ineligible. I can just see it now, parents shopping their star athlete kid around to the highest bidder, as long as their kid doesn't really know, and neither does the school.

[LSanders]

Seems to be a very odd precedent ... DAD can ask for money ... He can receive money ... He can buy cars, hookers, whatever with said money ... But, as long as he doesn't give his son any of the money or tell him where he got it, the NCAA is cool with it.

Did they just give their blessing to any morally-questionable parent of any elite athlete?

I guess for the Situational Ethics Conference, the good times are about to come rollin' in, eh?

[Faustus]

Somewhere Jim Thorpe is smiling, but I detect a tear rolling down the cheek on Mt. Rushmore of Teddy Roosevelt as "amateurism" in sports is again shamefully swept under the carpet to ensure better tv ratings, and of course cash, for the NCAA. These are the same people, recall, who when announcing they were moving their national headquarters, released a list of "acceptable gifts" they were looking to receive from other suitor cities. Very sad, but hardly surprising. Maybe Cam Newton's father promised the NCAA a cut as well.

[77devil]

Well, so much for amateurism (http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2010/12/ncaa_rules_auburns_cam_newton.html). I guess it was fun while it lasted.

Can Enes Kanter's reinstatement be far behind?

In the future it works something like this:

Athlete: "Dad, please shop me around for $xxx,xxx but we'll pretend I am unaware."
Dad: "Ok son. Be sure that all of our conversations are in person, no email or text messages."
Athlete: "Got it."

The NCAA is corrupt, incompetent, pathetic or all.

[77devil]

I agree that if the allegations of Cam Newton's father demanding payment from schools trying to recruit his son turn out to be true, then everyone involved in the sordid "negotiations" should be appropriately punished. And if Cam himself was aware that he was being shopped around to play in exchange for payment--whether or not any cash actually changed hands--then I will certainly no longer think of him as a great kid.

Stray:

Do you really believe that Cam didn't know, notwithstanding the NCAA statement? Do you believe in the tooth fairy? ;)

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2010/12/ncaa_rules_auburns_cam_newton.html

[77devil]

The PTI guys are excoriating the NCAA. Both stating unequivocally that there is no way that Cam didn't know, and that the NCAA is protecting the BCS championship game.

Wilbon: "This is an agenda driven joke."

Maybe the press will really go after this story and turn up a "smoking gun." One can hope.

[johnb]

If Cam's father asked Mississippi State for money, and if Cam either knew about it before or after but didn't report it to anyone, and he signed with Auburn without financial compensation, I have no problem with it. He's not responsible for his father's behavior, and most of us wouldn't turn on our parents under similar circumstances.

Further, it's all well and good to invoke Teddy Roosevelt and amateurism, but it's fairly easy to espouse amateurism from the comfy confines of great wealth and power.

The cheating allegations are also a concern, but it sounds like he obeyed the letter of the law in regards to the transfer (and we've had Duke student athletes who apparently transferred under a similar cloud). He's not bucking for becoming an Academic All American, and there are many, many college football and basketball players who are simply unprepared to function academically in college, and I do feel empathy that his tribulations are so public.

On the other hand, football recruiting in the SEC seems like such a cesspool that I assume they all knew everything and did everything and would be much happier with an Oregon-TCU game....

[WiJoe]

Were I a Heisman voter, he would not be on my ballot, period, end of story.

[superdave]

Were I a Heisman voter, he would not be on my ballot, period, end of story.

Every Heisman voter is thinking Cam Newton = Reggie Bush.

Best case scenario, Cam is clean.

Most likely scenario that is good, Auburn loses BCS game and Cam loses the Heisman by a vote or two in a huuuuge upset.

[SoCalDukeFan]

Especially when you look at severity of the penalty given USC.

The NCAA is saying its okay to shop your kid as long as we can't find out that the kid knew.

Remember also that the NCAA must think Cecil was lying when he said Cam was not shopped.

Also, when Cam left Florida for a Texas JC he described it as going on a business trip.

So Cam was going to go to Miss State but Miss State would not pay Cecil so he went to Auburn who did not pay Cecil and Cam had no idea what was going on.

This is just ridiculous.

SoCal

[4decadedukie]

Does anyone sincerely believe -- obviously, not provable in a legal or administrative setting -- that Newton was innocently unaware that his father was soliciting significant cash payments for his "amateur" athletic services? That is simply implausible, in my perception.

[killerleft]

Does anyone sincerely believe -- obviously, not provable in a legal or administrative setting -- that Newton was innocently unaware that his father was soliciting significant cash payments for his "amateur" athletic services? That is simply implausible, in my perception.

Implausible is a mild word. I can see where he may not hear from the "bidders". But surely he would have gotten the message from the schools/boosters that wouldn't consider giving his dad the money. Wouldn't the dad have had to ask that his son NOT be told about the proceedings? Surely Cam would have heard some grumbling from somewhere.

The message the NCAA is sending reeks of corruption and protection of their precious brand.