Plumlee Development

[dolver]

As someone who hasn't had a chance to see the preseason games or practices and who thinks that the Plumlee brothers' play is crucial to our success this year, I am wondering if anyone here can comment on what they have seen so far this year from Mason and Miles? Do they look better? More confident? Does it look like they've hit the weight room? Any changes at all? Obviously, the preseason don't mean dinky doo, but I am curious nevertheless. Also, do people think that Ryan Kelly could become a big factor on the team?

[COYS]

As someone who hasn't had a chance to see the preseason games or practices and who thinks that the Plumlee brothers' play is crucial to our success this year, I am wondering if anyone here can comment on what they have seen so far this year from Mason and Miles? Do they look better? More confident? Does it look like they've hit the weight room? Any changes at all? Obviously, the preseason don't mean dinky doo, but I am curious nevertheless. Also, do people think that Ryan Kelly could become a big factor on the team?

There are a number of threads where this has been discussed in more detail, but from knowledgeable posters, it seems that:

Miles looks like an NBA player in terms of muscle development.
Mason has also put on some muscle.
Ryan has put on about 30 pounds of muscle (supposedly).

Mason looks far more confident and though there will be a number of hands to the face moments, he looks poised to fill up ESPN's top 10 with dunks and dishes.
Ryan will undoubtedly play a bigger role this year and will be given the green light to start taking open shots. Personally, I can't wait to see him run high-low sets with the plums or Singler.

As Bob Green pointed out in "The Hits Keep Coming" thread, if the Plums and Kelly can capitalize on their abilities, we will have a special team.

[Jderf]

As someone who hasn't had a chance to see the preseason games or practices and who thinks that the Plumlee brothers' play is crucial to our success this year, I am wondering if anyone here can comment on what they have seen so far this year from Mason and Miles? Do they look better? More confident? Does it look like they've hit the weight room? Any changes at all? Obviously, the preseason don't mean dinky doo, but I am curious nevertheless. Also, do people think that Ryan Kelly could become a big factor on the team?

I wish I could give you an emphatic "yes," but to be honest, at this point it's hard to tell. The added bulk between out three tallest players should certainly help, and Ryan seems ready to make big strides forward this season. But so far, any declarative statement on the issue would be misleading. The three of them simply haven't shown enough yet to convince us one way or the other. Let's hope they pull it together.

[superdave]

We can expect each of the three guys will be incrementally better than last year. But we should also expect flashes of brilliance for each followed by flashes of "huh?". My hope is that all three grow during the course of the season the way Lance and Brian did last year. We need all three to get 2-3 things down pat and to allow the other parts of their game to come to them. Those 2-3 things would most likely be getting defensive rotations down, defending without fouling and finishing around the rim.

As for obligatory DBR message board "How many points and boards do we need from our bigs?"....hmmmm. I seem to recall wanting 25 and 15 out of our bigs last year, and that may work again this season.

I'd expect the Plums to have great rebounding numbers if they prove to hit all their defensive assignments. Half of rebounding is positioning, half is aggressively snatching the ball. With their athleticism, they simply need to perfect their defensive assignments and not gamble too much and they should average 15 boards between them. As for finishing around the rim, I think our backcourt gets them easy buckets via the dribble drive. This is Miles third season in the system so I expect him to be the frontcourt anchor early on with Mason showing more flashes and total growth over the season. I'd expect Ryan to get minutes more based on matchups and Duke needing some energy off the bench.

Super "I'm willing to put up with a few "huh?" moments if it means we learn and grow in time for March!" Dave

[MChambers]

As for obligatory DBR message board "How many points and boards do we need from our bigs?"....hmmmm. I seem to recall wanting 25 and 15 out of our bigs last year, and that may work again this season.
I'd take that, but feel obliged to point out that playing at a faster pace means more possessions, so our bigs really ought to have more points and boards than last year. I'm mostly concerned about their defense, however.

[Bob Green]

I'm mostly concerned about their defense, however.

I agree. With the talent available to score the ball on the wing and in the backcourt the frontcourt players will need to focus on defense and rebounding. Of course, they will still score points, I just believe defense and rebounding will be the main ingredient the team will need Plumlee/Plumlee/Kelly/Hairston to provide.

[dukeimac]

I think the most critical thing for success this season is FAN patience.

The team has the making a something special but that doesn't always work out. I'm not sure there was a single game last year where I thought Duke will play for the national title. Not sure there was a game I thought they would make it to the final four.

But I waited...

They have the talent and the experience now we just need to wait for Coach K to put it all together. Keep in mind injuries can change everything.

My biggest concern, the fans get over hyped and something happens during the season that brings everything crashing down.

Just be patient... good things come to those who wait!

[CEF1959]

The potential is there for the Plumlees, RK and JH to be a collective force inside. But the role that Zoubek (and to a lesser extent LT) played last year was critical. CRITICAL. Either collectively or individually, that role must be filled this year. It can be; whether it will be is TBD. I predict yes. The team (and more importantly, Miles Plumlee and the coaching staff) are making it a priority.

[COYS]

I think the most critical thing for success this season is FAN patience.



This will definitely be the most important thing for the sanity of DBR! I know K won't let what happens in the early season (good or bad) affect the team's over all development.

[gam7]

I'd take that, but feel obliged to point out that playing at a faster pace means more possessions, so our bigs really ought to have more points and boards than last year. I'm mostly concerned about their defense, however.

If we get 25 aggregate ppg from our bigs (MP1, MP2, Kelly), we'll be extremely hard to beat.

If you figure (conservatively) that we'll get:

45 aggregate ppg from Singler, Smith and Irving;
15 aggregate ppg from Dawkins and Curry;
5 aggregate ppg from everyone else,

we'd be scoring 90 ppg.

[dukeimac]

The potential is there for the Plumlees, RK and JH to be a collective force inside. But the role that Zoubek (and to a lesser extent LT) played last year was critical. CRITICAL. Either collectively or individually, that role must be filled this year. It can be; whether it will be is TBD. I predict yes. The team (and more importantly, Miles Plumlee and the coaching staff) are making it a priority.

Last year's style was one that needed someone like Zo, someone to camp out under the basket. If they play an up and down style Duke will need someone who can "fly" in and out of the lane. Zo would not be a good fit for that.

Everyone will always need a defender like Lance. But I think Kyle can be that guy. Especially if he is not needed to be the main scorer.

[johnb]

I think the most critical thing for success this season is FAN patience.



FAN patience is nice to watch, but I'd be at least as satisfied with PLAYER exuberance, especially during the last 5 seconds of games.

[superdave]

The potential is there for the Plumlees, RK and JH to be a collective force inside. But the role that Zoubek (and to a lesser extent LT) played last year was critical. CRITICAL. Either collectively or individually, that role must be filled this year. It can be; whether it will be is TBD. I predict yes. The team (and more importantly, Miles Plumlee and the coaching staff) are making it a priority.

I dont think we can expect Miles to be like Brian Zoubek - different bodies, different skill set, different paths over their careers. BZ camped out and got his hands on rebounds whereas Miles is more likely move around the paint, gamble for blocks and steals and generally be more mobile on D. Practically, I want to see Miles become more calculating in which shots he tries to block and to become 100% consistent on rotating to pick up the backside guy when one of the other 4 players goes for a steal. He needs to be our anchor.

Offensively, Miles is a better finisher and his confidence should grow as he gets more looks (and more easy looks) than ever. But where he ans Mason can really contribute is their ability to run the floor and be the trailer on the break. Would you want to stand in front of Miles for a charge? I want to see him jump over Harrison Barnes in a game.

[Kedsy]

The potential is there for the Plumlees, RK and JH to be a collective force inside. But the role that Zoubek (and to a lesser extent LT) played last year was critical. CRITICAL. Either collectively or individually, that role must be filled this year. It can be; whether it will be is TBD. I predict yes. The team (and more importantly, Miles Plumlee and the coaching staff) are making it a priority.

I'm not entirely sure to what "role" you are referring, but if I had to describe Z's role last year I'd say on offense he was an on-ball screener and a rebounder and on defense he was a help defender and a rebounder. Other than the help defender part, I disagree that it's a critical role that "must" be filled. Duke has rarely had a guy who focused almost exclusively on rebounding (and we've never had an offensive rebounder like Z), but our teams have generally fared pretty well without such a player.

And as for screening, this year's team will be much less reliant on on-ball screens -- really none of our perimeter guys need them. We'll hopefully see some off-ball screens, but in the halfcourt offense our bigs' primary role will be to be to sneak to open spots when their defender turns his head to help and then to receive dump off passes and alley-oops (and hopefully finish them). Of course, this year our bigs will also be expected to run the floor, something Z never really did. Defensively, our bigs will still have to rotate and help, but I think pressuring the passing lanes will be more prevalent than sitting back in rebounding position.

Just my opinion, of course.

[DukieInBrasil]

Would you want to stand in front of Miles for a charge? I want to see him jump over Harrison Barnes in a game.
That was AWESOME!!! I would LOVE to see that!

I don't think there's any need to "replace" Zoubek or LT, but there is a need for these four guys to play their roles competently and consistently. Grab lots of boards, play solid D and dunk off the break. If that's all they do, then this team will be just fine. However, they are capable of a lot more than this. RK and the MPs are all capable of hitting the 3 and stretch the D, Mason and Ryan were excellent passers as Fr. and should have only improved over the summer, and all 3 are pretty good shot blockers with a knack for picking up steals. Any contributions that Josh makes ought to be in addition to an already solid crew.

[OldPhiKap]

Miles is a good passer inside, and will keep the offense moving.

Mason has hops and some strong offense.

Ryan can set screens up top, and then move for the outside shot.

Most importantly, all three can set screens and will have to work hard to rebound.



I'm not concerned. For the offense we run, they will be more than fine. If they can rebound and defend the interior -- good footwork, take the charges -- we'll be very good.

[Newton_14]

I'm not entirely sure to what "role" you are referring, but if I had to describe Z's role last year I'd say on offense he was an on-ball screener and a rebounder and on defense he was a help defender and a rebounder. Other than the help defender part, I disagree that it's a critical role that "must" be filled. Duke has rarely had a guy who focused almost exclusively on rebounding (and we've never had an offensive rebounder like Z), but our teams have generally fared pretty well without such a player.

And as for screening, this year's team will be much less reliant on on-ball screens -- really none of our perimeter guys need them. We'll hopefully see some off-ball screens, but in the halfcourt offense our bigs' primary role will be to be to sneak to open spots when their defender turns his head to help and then to receive dump off passes and alley-oops (and hopefully finish them). Of course, this year our bigs will also be expected to run the floor, something Z never really did. Defensively, our bigs will still have to rotate and help, but I think pressuring the passing lanes will be more prevalent than sitting back in rebounding position.

Just my opinion, of course.

And an excellent opinion it was! I have to agree. We do not need Miles, or Mason to be Z. There was only one Z, and he was picture perfect for last year's team and scheme's. He fit in perfectly in every aspect of the offense and defense we settled into last year. I still have not gotten over the transformation Brian made, and the beast he turned into in anchoring his team to a National Championship.

And believe me, my UNC fans still cannot believe what he did either.

This is a new year and Miles and Mason will have different roles than Z had, just like you said. Now they will still be counted on to rebound, rotate on defense, and control the paint, they will just do it in a different way.

We should see a bunch of drive and dishes to both Mason and Miles, courtesy of Kyrie, Nolan, and Seth. Once adjustment I noticed in the 2 exhibition games, that they both need to make is to EXPECT THE PASS. Seriously. Last year, more often than not the ball was not coming so they could turn earlier to box out. This year there is a good chance a nifty pass will be thrown there way. They have to be ready for that. They missed a couple of opportunities in the first 2 games by not being ready.

[wilko]

While it would be great on one hand to think that one or both of the Plumlees should be cut from a traditional post "mold" and play as a Brand, Boozer baseline banger type, as we LACK that element... but truthfully. I'm not sure how necessary it is with our current crop of guards. I think its more of a luxury...

I think with our current roster; having a Dirk Nowitzki type is just fine. Last yr our Bigs were not the focus of the O as they were somewhat challenged in creating their own shot consistently. And to be fair, our Perimeter guys were similarly challenged to get them the ball in the right spots to take full advantage consistently.

Maybe I've been drinking too much of the Kool-aid, but I'm extremely hopeful that BOTH problems are solved this yr. MP1 and MP2 are pretty mobile. The Perimeter guys should be able to deliver the ball in spots better. If they ARE solved... that will go aloooong way for this team I think.


Just a thought - if KI is they guy everyone says he is.... (and there's no reason not to believe it) .. What if Z had 1 more yr? What kind of year would he have THIS yr? I think he'd be an absolute beast!! Follows, rebounds and having the ball delivered to him where he can do something with it... Lance too for that matter..

But what I look forward most... Seeing what Kyle can do in an uptempo offense without having to do so much of the initiating. The Guards *should* I think.... take a large burden off of him to where he can show out as a finisher. That should help his NBA prospects as well.

[OldPhiKap]

Just a thought - if KI is they guy everyone says he is.... (and there's no reason not to believe it) .. What if Z had 1 more yr? What kind of year would he have THIS yr? I think he'd be an absolute beast!! Follows, rebounds and having the ball delivered to him where he can do something with it... Lance too for that matter.

I'm not sure Z would have gotten the minutes he did at the end if we were a running team. He was perfect for a grind it out, half-court game. Probably not so much for a team that may score in the 80's or above pretty consistently.

[wilko]

I'm not sure Z would have gotten the minutes he did at the end if we were a running team. He was perfect for a grind it out, half-court game. Probably not so much for a team that may score in the 80's or above pretty consistently.

Perhaps... that's the fun in a "What if" game...

[OldPhiKap]

Perhaps... that's the fun in a "What if" game...

True dat. That's one of the things that makes college hoops better than pro hoops -- you never have a player on the court for more than four seasons.

[Devilsfan]

Hope it happens soon.

[Bob Green]

Hope it happens soon.

WTF? Am I missing something? This post makes no sense.

[Devilsfan]

Guess you missed his play this week.

[Bob Green]

Guess you missed his play this week.

This is a Plumlee thread, so......

Mason Plumlee: 11 points, 12 rebounds and 3 steals in 26 minutes.

Miles Plumlee: 14 points, 4 rebounds, 1 steal and 1 blocked shot in 21 minutes.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22726&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205025167

Those are not shabby numbers. I still do not understand your post.

[BD80]

... And as for screening, this year's team will be much less reliant on on-ball screens -- really none of our perimeter guys need them. ...

Less reliant, but we will certain use them regularly as a part of every set.

This is particularly true when Kyrie has the ball. Our own guys cannot double team him in practice! He apparently has an other-worldly ability to split a double team. Soooo ...

I can see us using frequent ball screens to induce the defense to commit two guys to Kyrie as he rounds the screen. With his ability to dribble through the two defenders, you would end up with a 5 on 3 situation.

Further, I think Kyrie has the perfect game for pick and roll offense, which would also suit the MPs and Kelly, or the pick and pop, which might be particularly deadly with Ryan, based upon Coach K's comments.

I agree that there will be a ton (and with the extra beef our bigs have added - I mean this literally) of off-the-ball screens, to free up Kyle and Seth from three, and for lobs to the MPs.

It will be interesting to see who gets the ball with 10 seconds left in the shot-clock more often, Nolan or Kyrie. My money is on Nolan for the first half of the year, and then again in the tourney, with Kyrie getting the call more often in the conference season.

Back on topic, just sit back and enjoy the Plumlees' development without expectations, and enjoy whatever happens.

[COYS]

Further, I think Kyrie has the perfect game for pick and roll offense, which would also suit the MPs and Kelly, or the pick and pop, which might be particularly deadly with Ryan, based upon Coach K's comments.


Excellent point. Screens are useful no matter how quick your ballhandlers are. Kyrie is often compared to Chris Paul, and while I definitely want Kyrie to be Kyrie and am not trying to fit him into a perfect mold, Chris Paul is a master at using the pick n' roll. Steve Nash, as well, has made a career of destroying defenses with his excellent execution of the pick n' roll/pop. We will see plenty of it. To bring my post back on topic a bit, I'd love to see Mason or Miles roll toward the hoop after setting a screen for Kyrie causing two defenders to get hung up guarding Kyrie. I think that will lead to some Amar'e Stoudemire-lite dunks from the Plumlees.

[Mike Corey]

Coach Collins on the Plumlees:


"I think they feel an added expectation, an added leadership role now having to take over for what [Lance and Brian did] last year. I think they learned a ton about how hard you have to work, and the things you need to do out on the court. If they can now match those up with the physical attributes and the talent they possess, then the sky’s the limit for those guys.”

[Kedsy]

I can see us using frequent ball screens to induce the defense to commit two guys to Kyrie as he rounds the screen. With his ability to dribble through the two defenders, you would end up with a 5 on 3 situation.

Further, I think Kyrie has the perfect game for pick and roll offense, which would also suit the MPs and Kelly, or the pick and pop, which might be particularly deadly with Ryan, based upon Coach K's comments.

I agree that there will be a ton (and with the extra beef our bigs have added - I mean this literally) of off-the-ball screens, to free up Kyle and Seth from three, and for lobs to the MPs.

Oh, I agree that the on-ball screen will still be valuable to initiate the pick and roll (or pick and pop). One of my favorite things about basketball is watching a well executed pick and roll. I hadn't thought about deliberately seeking a double-team on Kyrie but it's an interesting idea -- if he can't be trapped easily then a scenario where at least one of Kyle, Nolan, Miles, or Mason (or Seth, Andre, Ryan, or Josh, for that matter) is entirely unguarded should lead to a basket more often than not.

However, I still think off-ball screens will be more devastating to opposing defenses, because Kyrie should be able to draw a double-team even without the on-ball screen, and if you add an off-ball screen to that scenario then two or more of our players could be completely unguarded. Leading to lots of threes and dunks and demoralized opponents.

[greybeard]

We should see a bunch of drive and dishes to both Mason and Miles, courtesy of Kyrie, Nolan, and Seth. Once adjustment I noticed in the 2 exhibition games, that they both need to make is to EXPECT THE PASS. Seriously. Last year, more often than not the ball was not coming so they could turn earlier to box out. This year there is a good chance a nifty pass will be thrown there way. They have to be ready for that. They missed a couple of opportunities in the first 2 games by not being ready.

The highlighted portion, I think is important to look at, to deconstruct. On the one hand, sure you could say that a big man with creators like Kyrie and Nolan and Seth ought to be ready and reactive; that if they just do that, they'll do fine and so will Duke. That might indeed be "the way it works."

However, I don't think that that is the way IT works best. Passing and catching might well be the most fun thing in sport, especially when it is part of an on-the-move connection to accomplish more than as in baseball tag a base or a baserunner.

In fluid games like basketball, hockey and soccer, the question of who is the initiator and how often that can change before the ball or puck is actually released is what has the potential to make playing catch so damn terrific, and also effective.

I do not believe the great inside receptions, whether on a charge towards the goal, a charge to penetrate the defense, or as part of a catch and finish off a step or two in preparation, are off of plays that are exclusively thrower/passer initiation. In fact, I believe that the calling of the play, the creation of the pass, is a collaboration, in which the control is switched back and forth so quickly that even the participants might be said to be unaware of it (the collaboration).

My personal experience on both sides of such connections is that that is actually the way it really works, that is the way offensive play gets to sing, really gets to flow. Especially receivers who begin behind most if not all the defenders have a vision of the court that is unique and an ability to see and create opportunity unlike anyone else on the court, certainly the guy with the ball, who has everyone's attention if for no other reason than that he has what they want which also happens to be the only thing that can hurt them.

So, what the inside guys see, how they position, where they look, can call the play, at least at its inception, if the guys on the exterior respect the inside guys as intelligent initiators and look for reads to follow. Then the game is on, the movement of the ball whether by dribble or pass might produce what the big expected and that will become more apparent to all involved or it might lead someone to create another more promising, more available possibility, but only if the big sees it and positions his body, readies his momentum, to catch. The changes that can occur in an offensive set or even off a single dribble penetration will be within the dance that both ball handler and potential receiver choose to do, what the defense makes most available, and what the other sees and how he reacts and so on.

Saying that the read is a one way street and that all the bigs need to do is be ready seems to me to dumb down the game, dumb down the role of the bigs, from whom so much is asked that is oh so not respected, oh so not fully appreciated, by the fans.

I'll say it again, Zoubek last year was initiating offense like a wild man, and not just according to some script that his coaches set. He was making decisions, sometimes nuanced ones, sometimes bigger ones, that rarely involved him touching the ball but were as much the role of playmaker as anyone played on that court. And, you can bet that the people who had to defend him were the less for it on the other end when they had to try to beat him. They already had felt the measure of the man, not just his body but his grasp of the game and his ability to dictate play in a way that rendered them ineffectual on the defensive end. Did it help Z as a defender? How could it not have? As a rebounder? If you can think your way throw a slight change in initiating position to set an angle of approach for a screen that will itself be set in a slightly different way that you chose that made for a score how can the sharpness of mind that has been raised, the clarity of thinking and acting, not effect the single most important aspect of rebounding the ball--understanding where the shot is coming from and where you can get to that will give you the best shot at it if the ball doesn't go in.

Nope, relegating Mason and Miles and Ryan or anyone else a passive player in the game of catch whose only job it is is to react to what the passer sees and creates is not the way to get what you want from any of those guys. And, unless the littles, those wonderfully skilled guys who everyone is talking about really, really gets that, my guess is that this team will be less the team that everyone expects and senses that they can be.

But, I have been saying this for a while now. Only now game is on, and the initiation role will be shared in ways that only hackneyed phrases weakly approximate--they really play as a team, they are so unselfish, he seems to be in the right place all the time, he is so unselfish, etc--the unanswered questions about this team will remain that way. In my opinion of course, only in my opinion.