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Tappan Zee Devil
11-09-2010, 04:58 PM
Seeing the trick play that is posted on the home page reminds me of what I think is a better one - It involves Duke and I was there to see it :)

In the 1969 carolina-Duke game, QB Leo Hart knelt down to tie his shoe lace. While he was doing that, Marcel Courtillot casually walked up to the ball and flipped it to Wes Chesson. Meanwhile, the rest of the team, who had been milling around, were in position (right number on the line etc) and frozen. Chesson ran for a touchdown.

It left everyone in the stadium, including the carolina team, looking around and wondering what had just happened.

oldnavy
11-09-2010, 05:04 PM
Seeing the trick play that is posted on the home page reminds me of what I think is a better one - It involves Duke and I was there to see it :)

In the 1969 carolina-Duke game, QB Leo Hart knelt down to tie his shoe lace. While he was doing that, Marcel Courtillot casually walked up to the ball and flipped it to Wes Chesson. Meanwhile, the rest of the team, who had been milling around, were in position (right number on the line etc) and frozen. Chesson ran for a touchdown.

It left everyone in the stadium, including the carolina team, looking around and wondering what had just happened.

I was explaining that same play to my son last night when we say the video of this one. I remember thinking in the Duke game, what the heck did they just do? If I remember correctly, we won the game because of that, if not that is at least how I prefer to remember it... :rolleyes:

Tappan Zee Devil
11-09-2010, 05:06 PM
I was explaining that same play to my son last night when we say the video of this one. I remember thinking in the Duke game, what the heck did they just do? If I remember correctly, we won the game because of that, if not that is at least how I prefer to remember it... :rolleyes:

Final score was 17-13 Duke, so yes! :D

Cell-R
11-09-2010, 05:47 PM
Seeing the trick play that is posted on the home page reminds me of what I think is a better one - It involves Duke and I was there to see it :)

In the 1969 carolina-Duke game, QB Leo Hart knelt down to tie his shoe lace. While he was doing that, Marcel Courtillot casually walked up to the ball and flipped it to Wes Chesson. Meanwhile, the rest of the team, who had been milling around, were in position (right number on the line etc) and frozen. Chesson ran for a touchdown.

It left everyone in the stadium, including the carolina team, looking around and wondering what had just happened.

That's awesome! Isn't Wes Chesson the color analyst now for Duke Football? It's crazy that his nephew (I think) was my dads college roommate - and now very good family friends!

Tappan Zee Devil
11-09-2010, 05:56 PM
apologies to Marcel Courtillet for misspelling his name in the original post.

I have a colleague in France named Vincent Courtillot and thus spelled Marcel's name that way. :o mia culpa

JasonEvans
11-09-2010, 06:11 PM
On Outside the Lines today they had a discussion about cheating in sports and talked about whether this was cheating. It was not. A trick play is not cheating!!

Now, up for debate is the major thing they talked about-- a situation where a high school football team that calls out plays by number had one players armband (with the numbers and plays on it) lost on the field. The opposing coach found it and used it to signal to his players what kind of play was coming. Is that cheating?

--Jason "stealing signs is time-honred in baseball, but not in football" Evans

Mal
11-09-2010, 06:45 PM
On Outside the Lines today they had a discussion about cheating in sports and talked about whether this was cheating. It was not. A trick play is not cheating!!

Now, up for debate is the major thing they talked about-- a situation where a high school football team that calls out plays by number had one players armband (with the numbers and plays on it) lost on the field. The opposing coach found it and used it to signal to his players what kind of play was coming. Is that cheating?

--Jason "stealing signs is time-honred in baseball, but not in football" Evans

I think there should be a distinction between "cheating" and "bush league" or some similar terminology. Neither of these are cheating, strictly speaking. But something may be perfectly within the written rules of a sport and yet stretch the limits (or break them) of what's considered good sportsmanship. In my not so humble opinion, I think the Corpus Christi thing moves toward that line but I'm pretty comfortable with it, while the other shows poor form.

The first is not much different than the old hidden ball trick in baseball. I'd prefer a trick like this be attempted in a game not involving 12 year-olds still learning the rules of the game. Also, I think it's at least a teeny bit less than savory that a trick play take advantage of the natural (and humane) instinct in the defense of not popping a kid when it doesn't appear the "game" is ongoing at the moment. It's understandable that no one would hit him - they probably feared a 15 yard penalty, being tossed from the game and getting railed by their coach and parents for coldcocking a defenseless quarterback. That said, it's a live ball and it's pretty clever.

The other situation is ethically much shadier to me. Yes, the team that lost the arm band kind of only has themselves to blame, and the other team didn't actively go "steal" the playbook, but taking advantage of it falling in your lap provides you with a systematic advantage you did nothing to earn. The sporting thing to do is to show some character and return the armband. The analogy to stealing signs in baseball would be if the coach here was memorizing what the opposing team was calling and what play followed and then relaying it to his own kids. That I could get behind.

Running a trick play that works is something you earned. You took a risk it would fail and you'd have wasted a play, and having your QB get drilled as he crosses the line of scrimmage. That, to me, is different than being faced with temptation and willingly taking the low road.

Dukeface88
11-09-2010, 07:58 PM
I think there should be a distinction between "cheating" and "bush league" or some similar terminology. Neither of these are cheating, strictly speaking. But something may be perfectly within the written rules of a sport and yet stretch the limits (or break them) of what's considered good sportsmanship. In my not so humble opinion, I think the Corpus Christi thing moves toward that line but I'm pretty comfortable with it, while the other shows poor form.

The first is not much different than the old hidden ball trick in baseball. I'd prefer a trick like this be attempted in a game not involving 12 year-olds still learning the rules of the game. Also, I think it's at least a teeny bit less than savory that a trick play take advantage of the natural (and humane) instinct in the defense of not popping a kid when it doesn't appear the "game" is ongoing at the moment. It's understandable that no one would hit him - they probably feared a 15 yard penalty, being tossed from the game and getting railed by their coach and parents for coldcocking a defenseless quarterback. That said, it's a live ball and it's pretty clever.

The other situation is ethically much shadier to me. Yes, the team that lost the arm band kind of only has themselves to blame, and the other team didn't actively go "steal" the playbook, but taking advantage of it falling in your lap provides you with a systematic advantage you did nothing to earn. The sporting thing to do is to show some character and return the armband. The analogy to stealing signs in baseball would be if the coach here was memorizing what the opposing team was calling and what play followed and then relaying it to his own kids. That I could get behind.

Running a trick play that works is something you earned. You took a risk it would fail and you'd have wasted a play, and having your QB get drilled as he crosses the line of scrimmage. That, to me, is different than being faced with temptation and willingly taking the low road.

I think the trick play is pretty clearly not cheating, although I do see injury concerns if the defense realizes what's happening. I think there's a reasonable argument it could warrant future banning, but as the rules stand, I think it's a fair play. If you're concerned with being penalized, wrap him up and prevent forward progress rather than just slamming into him as hard as you can. Which is really how you're supposed to be tackling anyway (I'm looking at you, NFL defensive backs).

The armband thing seems to cross the line though. I don't see how a lack of intention to find it makes any difference at all. I mean, could someone really argue that they just "happened" to be in the opposing team's locker room, and "accidentally" found the playbook in a safe that they "accidentally" opened? It's one thing if you notice certain signals from watching tape (note to defenders: when the quarterback points at the running back, it's a run; how have you not figured this out?) or listening during the game, but any kind of written playbook should be completely off-limits IMO.

gus
11-10-2010, 10:25 AM
The first is not much different than the old hidden ball trick in baseball. I'd prefer a trick like this be attempted in a game not involving 12 year-olds still learning the rules of the game. Also, I think it's at least a teeny bit less than savory that a trick play take advantage of the natural (and humane) instinct in the defense of not popping a kid when it doesn't appear the "game" is ongoing at the moment. It's understandable that no one would hit him - they probably feared a 15 yard penalty, being tossed from the game and getting railed by their coach and parents for coldcocking a defenseless quarterback. That said, it's a live ball and it's pretty clever.

HS, College, NFL- there a trick play is great fun. High risk, high reward.

But for a peewee game, I think trick plays have no place. Playing to the whistle is an important lesson, but kids should be learning sportsmanship and how to play the game. A trick play like this goes against that.

COYS
11-10-2010, 10:44 AM
The first is not much different than the old hidden ball trick in baseball. I'd prefer a trick like this be attempted in a game not involving 12 year-olds still learning the rules of the game.

Not to single out one small part of a rather well-written post, but when I was in 11-12 year old baseball leagues, that was PRIME TIME for trick plays because the other players where so much more susceptible to it. I played first base and shortstop most of that season and every single time a runner beat out a throw to either first or second, I pretended it went by me so I could catch them off the bag for an out. If the catcher overthrew me at second on an attempted steal, I always pretended to have the ball. When I was 13 and the league began permitting runners to leadoff and pitchers to work from the stretch, I would stand on the rubber as if I were going into a full windup with a runner on first only to step off slowly with my right foot, almost always fooling the runner into thinking he had an easy steal because I forgot to work from the stretch (pitchers made this mistake all the time over the course of the first few games of the season as they adjusted to the rules). Oh, and the hidden ball trick and fake to third pick, off a runner at second trick worked frequently, as well.

Of course, I think it's totally different when players do these tricks of their own accord. It's different when a coach intentionally exploits kids' lack of experience with the rules to gain an advantage.

JasonEvans
11-10-2010, 10:54 AM
An update on the guy who got a copy of the other team's plays...

He admits he got the armband and used it to tell his D about play (http://www.courant.com/sports/high-schools/hc-southington-coach-suspended-1110-20101109,0,6900494.story)s, but says he only did it for one series of plays early in the third quarter. He has been suspended by his school for one game (his team, which is 7-1, is playing a team that is 2-8 in that game).

Frankly, I doubt the guy used the armband on only one series. Why would he do it once and not continue to do it? I am not sure if his team should be forced to forfeit or not.

Frankly, the other coach is an idiot. He apparently realized during the game that the opposition had his plays. He should have done something to fool them -- "guys, add 2 to whatever play number I give you" or "next time I call a run up the middle -- play number 3 -- run play 12 , the fake run which is actually a bomb downfield -- instead."

-Jason "I'd say they all take this stuff too seriously, but I feel the same way about my son's teams" Evans

Turtleboy
11-10-2010, 10:56 AM
Seeing the trick play that is posted on the home page reminds me of what I think is a better one - It involves Duke and I was there to see it :)

In the 1969 carolina-Duke game, QB Leo Hart knelt down to tie his shoe lace. While he was doing that, Marcel Courtillot casually walked up to the ball and flipped it to Wes Chesson. Meanwhile, the rest of the team, who had been milling around, were in position (right number on the line etc) and frozen. Chesson ran for a touchdown.

It left everyone in the stadium, including the carolina team, looking around and wondering what had just happened.IIRC, that play was called Sprint Killer Left.

COYS
11-10-2010, 11:01 AM
Frankly, the other coach is an idiot. He apparently realized during the game that the opposition had his plays. He should have done something to fool them -- "guys, add 2 to whatever play number I give you" or "next time I call a run up the middle -- play number 3 -- run play 12 , the fake run which is actually a bomb downfield -- instead."

-Jason "I'd say they all take this stuff too seriously, but I feel the same way about my son's teams" Evans

This is why I guess I'm not sure the coach should be suspended. The opposing coach shouldn't have let this affect his team much as the solutions to the problem are so numerous. To bring back one more memory from little league, I remember intentionally allowing the opposing team to hear me tell bogus pitching signs to the catcher. We always had devised a system for signs before the game and I did that just because it was hilarious and effective to hear the entire dugout say "Curveball-inside" when the catcher gave me a sign that really meant fastball away. Jason, your idea of adding 2 to any play number called would have had the same effect. Or, the coach could have added an indicator to the play calls, calling out multiple plays at a time but signifying the desired play by placing a "Hey! Yeah" or a color ("Blue" 42) in front of it.

JasonEvans
11-10-2010, 11:42 AM
This is why I guess I'm not sure the coach should be suspended. The opposing coach shouldn't have let this affect his team much as the solutions to the problem are so numerous. To bring back one more memory from little league, I remember intentionally allowing the opposing team to hear me tell bogus pitching signs to the catcher. We always had devised a system for signs before the game and I did that just because it was hilarious and effective to hear the entire dugout say "Curveball-inside" when the catcher gave me a sign that really meant fastball away. Jason, your idea of adding 2 to any play number called would have had the same effect. Or, the coach could have added an indicator to the play calls, calling out multiple plays at a time but signifying the desired play by placing a "Hey! Yeah" or a color ("Blue" 42) in front of it.

In fairness, it is possible the opposing coach did not realize his plays were being stolen until very late in the game -- perhaps not even until it was over.

An opposing team tried the hidden ball trick in a baseball game last spring against my son's team. It was called a balk because the pitcher came set to the rubber before the runner led off. If the pitcher toes the rubber but does not have the ball, that is a balk.

-Jason "the SS fake-throw to draw the runner off 2nd and then tag him probably works 75% of the time in 12u baseball" Evans

killerleft
11-10-2010, 03:09 PM
IIRC, that play was called Sprint Killer Left.

I think you could be right!;)

gus
11-10-2010, 03:47 PM
Not to single out one small part of a rather well-written post, but when I was in 11-12 year old baseball leagues, that was PRIME TIME for trick plays because the other players where so much more susceptible to it. I played first base and shortstop most of that season and every single time a runner beat out a throw to either first or second, I pretended it went by me so I could catch them off the bag for an out. If the catcher overthrew me at second on an attempted steal, I always pretended to have the ball. When I was 13 and the league began permitting runners to leadoff and pitchers to work from the stretch, I would stand on the rubber as if I were going into a full windup with a runner on first only to step off slowly with my right foot, almost always fooling the runner into thinking he had an easy steal because I forgot to work from the stretch (pitchers made this mistake all the time over the course of the first few games of the season as they adjusted to the rules). Oh, and the hidden ball trick and fake to third pick, off a runner at second trick worked frequently, as well.

Of course, I think it's totally different when players do these tricks of their own accord. It's different when a coach intentionally exploits kids' lack of experience with the rules to gain an advantage.

For some reason, these kind of plays in baseball don't bother me at all. I don't think of them as gimmicky or trick plays. I'm not really sure why - maybe because it seems like part of the game, or maybe because these plays are defensive in nature. Or maybe it's the element you describe - these are initiated by the player, not the coach? I don't know. Certainly faking a throw or pretending to lose the ball are no more trick plays than a head fake in basketball is.

CameronBornAndBred
11-10-2010, 04:51 PM
Now, up for debate is the major thing they talked about-- a situation where a high school football team that calls out plays by number had one players armband (with the numbers and plays on it) lost on the field. The opposing coach found it and used it to signal to his players what kind of play was coming. Is that cheating?

I say it's taking advantage of an opportunity. Morally wrong and not in the spirit of sportsmanship, but I don't think it's cheating. If they had made an attempt to actually steal the armband, then that's cheating. It's sad that the coach thought he had to use this tactic instead of trusting his own defensive play calling to get the job done.

CameronBornAndBred
11-10-2010, 04:54 PM
Frankly, the other coach is an idiot. He apparently realized during the game that the opposition had his plays. He should have done something to fool them -- "guys, add 2 to whatever play number I give you"
If those kids can do math and play football at the same time Coach Cut should start keeping an eye on them.

ksmckay
11-10-2010, 05:00 PM
I think the baseball thing is completely different b/c the game doesn't "stop" the way it does in football. As a runner or on defense you always have to be alert during the inning b/c the ball is always in play and at any moment the opposition can do something (i.e. pick-off or steal)

DukieInKansas
11-10-2010, 06:46 PM
Not really a trick play but one of my favorite plays to win a game:
Clock Management (http://www.johntreed.com/1999FCMN.html)

There were a few seconds left in a local football game. The QB took the snap and ran around to use of the 6 seconds. When the horn sounded, he stopped. A player from the other team came up to shake his hand but instead took the ball and ran it in for a touch down. The QB never took a knee and the refs never blew the play dead. It changed the out come of the game.

It pays to be alert. (America needs more lerts. - Paul Harvey, Good Day.)

devildm
11-10-2010, 07:38 PM
Someone mentioned something about learning fundamentals and playing until you hear the whistle...it looks like the defender in this clip had a pretty good understanding of what was going on. This is what happens when the "wrong ball" trick does not work. I don't think the QB was hurt too bad, but he could have been.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQbAP-K28J8