MBB: Duke vs Princeton Pre-Game & In-Game Thread

[Newton_14]

Time to get the party started!

Pre-Season is wrapping up, the exhibitions are now behind us, and the 2010-11 Duke Blue Devils Men's Basketball team will debut Sunday, Nov 14th against Princeton, in the opening round of the CBE Classic. While this is classified as a "Tournament", a disturbing trend that started 2 seasons ago continues, as the top 4 seeded teams in the "tourney", including Duke automatically advance to the semi-finals in Kansas City, whether or not they win their early round games.

Whoever came of with this concept should be shot, really. Either drop the early round games or, have it where winner's advance, no matter what.

A quick look at the Princeton Tigers:
- Princeton return's their top 5 scorer's from a team that went 22-9 in 2009/10, finishing 2nd in the Ivy League.

Key Returners Are:
5'11 164 Jr. G Doug Davis - 12.7 ppg 43.2% 3ppg
6'4 210 Sr. G Dan Mavraides- 11.5 ppg 4.3 rpg
6'7 226 So. F Ian Hummer- 6.9 ppg
6'8 230 Sr. F Kareem Maddox- 6.2 ppg
6'8 200 Jr. F Patrick Saunders- 5.1 ppg
Key Reserves:
6'11 252 SO. C Brendan Connely
6'10 197 SO F Will Barrett

They also add 5 new Freshman to the mix.


The Tigers are predicted to win the Ivy this year. Following is a snippet from ESPN's preseason review:


PRINCETON - Sydney Johnson has the Princeton program on the rise and that was evident in last season's success when the Tigers went 22-9 overall and 11-3 within the Ivy League. The Tigers even reached the semifinals of the CBI and with three starters back in the fold, Princeton is now a favorite to win its first Ivy League title since 2004.

This should be a good early test for our guys. I expect the problem seen against Cal-Poly of coming out flat and lethargic will have been rectified and our guys will have high intensity right out of the gate. I expect Duke will look to push the ball early and often while insuring Singler gets touches early and often.

One thing I am looking for is for Nolan to be more aggressive on offense. In the 2 exhibitions, he deferred too much imo, seemingly due to Duke having more scoring options than last year. I would like for Nolan to establish himself early like Kyle, and look to attack on offense the way he did last year. It will only serve to make the offense more potent.

The frontcourt guys need to protect the paint, rotate well on defense, and rebound like maniacs. On offense, they need to be on high alert for passes coming there way, especially lobs. Miles missed one against Cal-Poly thinking that Nolan was shooting a floater, that in fact was a lob to him. Not an easy thing on a play like that but both he and the other bigs really need to be ready when one of Kyrie's nifty passes are coming.

Looking forward to a good performance by the men in blue as they kick the season off.

Go Duke!

[COYS]

Time to get the party started!

Pre-Season is wrapping up, the exhibitions are now behind us, and the 2010-11 Duke Blue Devils Men's Basketball team will debut Sunday, Nov 14th against Princeton, in the opening round of the CBE Classic. While this is classified as a "Tournament", a disturbing trend that started 2 seasons ago continues, as the top 4 seeded teams in the "tourney", including Duke automatically advance to the semi-finals in Kansas City, whether or not they win their early round games.

Whoever came of with this concept should be shot, really. Either drop the early round games or, have it where winner's advance, no matter what.

A quick look at the Princeton Tigers:
- Princeton return's their top 5 scorer's from a team that went 22-9 in 2009/10, finishing 2nd in the Ivy League.

Key Returners Are:
5'11 164 Jr. G Doug Davis - 12.7 ppg 43.2% 3ppg
6'4 210 Sr. G Dan Mavraides- 11.5 ppg 4.3 rpg
6'7 226 So. F Ian Hummer- 6.9 ppg
6'8 230 Sr. Kareem Maddox- 6.2 ppg
6'8 200 Jr. Patrick Saunders- 5.1 ppg
Key Reserves:
6'11 252 SO. Brendan Connely
6'10 197 SO F Will Barrett

They also add 5 new Freshman to the mix.


The Tigers are predicted to win the Ivy this year. Following is a snippet from ESPN's preseason review:



This should be a good early test for our guys. I expect the problem seen against Cal-Poly of coming out flat and lethargic will have been rectified and our guys will have high intensity right out of the gate. I expect Duke will look to push the ball early and often while insuring Singler gets touches early and often.

One thing I am looking for is for Nolan to be more aggressive on offense. In the 2 exhibitions, he deferred too much imo, seemingly due to Duke having more scoring options than last year. I would like for Nolan to establish himself early like Kyle, and look to attack on offense the way he did last year. It will only serve to make the offense more potent.

The frontcourt guys need to protect the paint, rotate well on defense, and rebound like maniacs. On offense, they need to be on high alert for passes coming there way, especially lobs. Miles missed one against Cal-Poly thinking that Nolan was shooting a floater, that in fact was a lob to him. Not an easy thing on a play like that but both he and the other bigs really need to be ready when one of Kyrie's nifty passes are coming.

Looking forward to a good performance by the men in blue as they kick the season off.

Go Duke!

Very much looking forward to this game as I have strong connections to both Princeton and Duke. Sydney Johnson has done a magnificent job rebuilding Princeton into an Ivy League power. Personally, I think he will soon be regarded as a rising star in the coaching world. I would not be suprised to see him snatched up by a bigger program in the next few seasons if he keeps the Tigers on their current trajectory.

As for this game, though, Johnson and his boys shouldn't have much of a chance. Princeton will want to play slowly and methodically, controlling the ball and working the shot clock down as is typical of Princeton teams and necessary as the Tigers lack the athletes to compete with Duke. I think the ball pressure Duke will apply will force Princeton into initiating their offense so far away from the basket that they will have a tough time scoring. On the other hand, the Princeton offense relies on opportunistic back door cuts and Dukes overplay of the passing lanes could lead to some of these. I think we'll get a chance to see where our bigs stand in terms of rotations on cuts to the basket. Also, Princeton has a lot of size for an Ivy League squad. Though the bigs lack the athleticism of the Plumlees, Mason and Miles can't rely solely on their height for rebounds and blocks. They will need to fight for position and the team as a whole will need to pay attention to rebounding.

In the end, however, Princeton has no one who can guard Kyrie, no one who can guard Singler, and no way to keep up in transition. If Princeton can avoid turnovers, control the pace, get hot from outside, and score some easy buckets on back door cuts, the game could stay close for a while. However, I expect Dukes pressure to wear Princeton down and, even if Princeton plays well, the game should be in no doubt soon after the start of the second half.

[Lord Ash]

It would be hard to be MORE excited:)

I will be very curious to see how we did... after destroying in our first exhibition game against St. A, and then not-as-much destroying in our second exhibition game (against an opponent who looked pretty good, all things considered) I am curious to see how we do against a smart D1 team.

[MChambers]

It would be hard to be MORE excited:)

I will be very curious to see how we did... after destroying in our first exhibition game against St. A, and then not-as-much destroying in our second exhibition game (against an opponent who looked pretty good, all things considered) I am curious to see how we do against a smart D1 team.

Last year, Princeton managed to keep the tempo at about 60 possessions per game, or 342 in Division I. It will be interesting to see if pfrduke is right, and Duke can force Princeton out of its offense and get the tempo up. I think Princeton is a great early opponent for Duke, because they play a very patient offense with lots of backdoor cuts, so will challenge the Devils' defense.

Interestingly, last year Princeton's defense was good, but its offense was not so good. Given Duke's attacking defense this year, I think the teams that may Duke the most trouble are those with solid offensive play, especially if they have backcourts with speed and excellent ball handling.

[burnspbesq]

Princeton has amazing size for an Ivy League team - EIGHT guys 6'8" or bigger. If we don't get out in transition, and if our perimeter guys can't force them to come out and defend, it could be a long night.

[NSDukeFan]

Last year, Princeton managed to keep the tempo at about 60 possessions per game, or 342 in Division I. It will be interesting to see if pfrduke is right, and Duke can force Princeton out of its offense and get the tempo up. I think Princeton is a great early opponent for Duke, because they play a very patient offense with lots of backdoor cuts, so will challenge the Devils' defense.

Interestingly, last year Princeton's defense was good, but its offense was not so good. Given Duke's attacking defense this year, I think the teams that may Duke the most trouble are those with solid offensive play, especially if they have backcourts with speed and excellent ball handling.

I agree that it will be very interesting to see who is able to dictate tempo. If Princeton stays very disciplined and handles the ball well (they will have more upperclassmen in their starting lineup than Duke will) the game could be a lot closer than we would like. I agree this could be an excellent test for the other Big 3 (Miles, Mason and Ryan) to see how well they are able to rotate defensively when the perimeter players get beat while overplaying or they use some back door cuts. It is very exciting to start the season and hopefully I will get a chance to see this one on the internet.

[JohnGalt]

In the end, however, Princeton has no one who can guard Kyrie, no one who can guard Singler, and no way to keep up in transition. If Princeton can avoid turnovers, control the pace, get hot from outside, and score some easy buckets on back door cuts, the game could stay close for a while. However, I expect Dukes pressure to wear Princeton down and, even if Princeton plays well, the game should be in no doubt soon after the start of the second half.

Good breakdown, COYS, but - let's be honest - we could go ahead and add Nolan, Seth and probably Andre to the list of players that Princeton will have a hard time containing. As mentioned, Duke's athleticism will make it very difficult for Princeton to even get into the halfcourt let alone initiate the offense of their namesake. Duke will generate plenty of turnovers as a result and will, in turn, get their fair share (well, more than their fair share) of easy buckets from the resultant breakaways.

I think though the key to Duke fully laying the pipe to Princeton - aka the 40pt blowout we've been expecting - is inside the paint. The Plumtrees and Kelly will not be able to physically overpower the Princeton bigs as they're much more comparable in size to anything Cal or StAugs put on the court. However, if they're able to block out, rebound, and kick out in the manner in which we all know they can, Duke will make short work of Tigers. If they're aggressive in going and getting the ball rather than letting it come to them, Duke will go up big, quick. If not, I imagine the game will run similarly to the previous one with Duke eventually getting the big win, but not without a little back and forth in the beginning.

I also imagine this is the beginning of what will become a recurring theme throughout the season. How much production - specifically without regard to scoring - will Duke get out of its frontcourt? Because let's face it, regardless of how good our backcourt is (and it's REAL good), that will determine how well-rounded, efficient, and deadly this team will be.

[Kedsy]

Princeton has amazing size for an Ivy League team - EIGHT guys 6'8" or bigger. If we don't get out in transition, and if our perimeter guys can't force them to come out and defend, it could be a long night.

Right, because if all eight of those big guys are on the court at the same time they'll really clog up the lanes and we could be in trouble.

[Zeb]

I think though the key to Duke fully laying the pipe to Princeton


Ummm, are we still talking about basketball?

[OldPhiKap]

If Princeton is able to dictate tempo, Duke should win by 15-20 and outsiders will yell that Duke's overrated

If we dictate tempo, we should win by 25+ and folks will dismiss it.



So, given that, my main hope is that the team learns something from the game (especially patience!!!) and stays healthy.

[dukeballboy88]

Kyle needs to be the first option no matter what. Get him the ball early and get him going and Nolan needs to be 2nd. Sometimes when you have alot of talent down the roster like Duke has, its very easy to become to unselfish.

Also, I would like to see more points coming from sets run for MP1 and MP2 where they can use some back to the basket moves. Goin inside out will get us more open looks for the snipers on the perimeter and I think we have 2 studs on the blocks that need touches to get warm.

There will come a time when a team runs a wide matchup zone with lenghty athletes on the wing that will make it tough to shoot over and we will need to manufacture points another way.

[COYS]

Good breakdown, COYS, but - let's be honest - we could go ahead and add Nolan, Seth and probably Andre to the list of players that Princeton will have a hard time containing. As mentioned, Duke's athleticism will make it very difficult for Princeton to even get into the halfcourt let alone initiate the offense of their namesake. Duke will generate plenty of turnovers as a result and will, in turn, get their fair share (well, more than their fair share) of easy buckets from the resultant breakaways.

I think though the key to Duke fully laying the pipe to Princeton - aka the 40pt blowout we've been expecting - is inside the paint. The Plumtrees and Kelly will not be able to physically overpower the Princeton bigs as they're much more comparable in size to anything Cal or StAugs put on the court. However, if they're able to block out, rebound, and kick out in the manner in which we all know they can, Duke will make short work of Tigers. If they're aggressive in going and getting the ball rather than letting it come to them, Duke will go up big, quick. If not, I imagine the game will run similarly to the previous one with Duke eventually getting the big win, but not without a little back and forth in the beginning.

I also imagine this is the beginning of what will become a recurring theme throughout the season. How much production - specifically without regard to scoring - will Duke get out of its frontcourt? Because let's face it, regardless of how good our backcourt is (and it's REAL good), that will determine how well-rounded, efficient, and deadly this team will be.

Yes, that is certainly true. I picked Kyrie and Kyle, though, because of how unique the two of them will be compared to Princeton's team. Nobody on the court will have Kyrie's quickness and handle, and no one on the court will be able to score in more ways than Kyle. If they can't keep up with Kyrie, he will push the tempo and Duke will blow by Princeton. Kyle, on the other hand, will be our most deadly weapon in the halfcourt because he can score from anywhere, is too fast for the Princeton's bigs and small forwards, and too tall for any of their guards.

You are definitely correct, though. Princeton would have a hard time guarding most of our guys 1 on 1.

I agree with you about seeing how Mason, Miles, and Ryan rebound, though. If they get sloppy on this front, Princeton has the size to get some offensive boards (which will allow them to eat more clock on each possession and slow the game even more). At any rate, I'm certainly looking forward to seeing how our half court game on both sides of the ball is coming along.

[Newton_14]

If Princeton is able to dictate tempo, Duke should win by 15-20 and outsiders will yell that Duke's overrated

If we dictate tempo, we should win by 25+ and folks will dismiss it.



So, given that, my main hope is that the team learns something from the game (especially patience!!!) and stays healthy.

This will be a good test for our guys. I do not see Princeton as an early season "Cupcake". Princeton is better than that. They return several players from a good team and are picked to win the Ivy League. I expect them to compete and challenge our guys.

We have the talent to overwhelm them for sure, but our defense and rebounding will need to be very solid to allow us to dictate tempo and play at the pace we want to play. It will be interesting to see what type of defense Princeton deploys, and how they try to deal with Kyrie. Even if Princeton keeps the pace down and makes it more of a half-court game than Duke wants to play, Duke should be able to be a really good half-court offensive team as well. That is the beauty of this team if it all comes together as most envision.

K has the components required to score the ball efficiently in the half-court. Multiple guys that can penetrate effectively, and a slew of shooters. Miles and Mason are capable of scoring in the paint, but if they struggle with that at all, Kyle is an excellent option to post-up and get buckets when needed.

Josh is also proving to be very crafty around the basket, though it remains to be seen how many minutes he will garner. The guy definitely knows how to put the ball in the basket though. I am anxious to see how the rotations are going to shake out over these first 10 or so games. After watching the 2 exhibitions, I am confident K will go at least 8 deep every night with the 5 current starters plus Seth, Andre, and Ryan.

Josh will be the wildcard and it could go either way depending on his ability to defend. Tyler is a solid player, but there are so many quality guards in front of him, it will be difficult for him to find minutes. That said he certainly does not look like a player that K would be afraid to throw into the fire of a tight game.

We should win this game and the line will be double digits for sure, but certainly not a bad opponent to open with.

[OldPhiKap]

{great points)

Booz, I didn't mean to an pnterimply anything other than they will be an interesting nut to crack. Coach wouldn't schedule it without some purpose. But even at a slow pace, our shooting should make this a tough game for the Tigers.

[ricks68]

Not to be the bearer of negativism, but before we start with the usual "how great we are going to be" or "how great a particular player is going to be", I think we should wait and see how they players all respond to the new system after they play a few games that mean something.

I think Princeton will be a very good test. Their starting 5 have 2 Sr.'s, 2 Jr.'s and a Soph, with their two top reserves being sophs. They also have been using the same system for quite a few years, now. The system we are running is new to our players, and from what I gather from the last game, it appears to be still a bit confusing mentally. For example, our rebounding was lower than expected due to different players taking off for the fast break instead of crashing the boards. We still need to figure out how to get those boards while the right players do the break. Also, with the number of different players we have that are able to drive to the basket now, we will have to figure out a lot of different positioning that allows that to happen when we want it to happen, etc. We proved again last year that teamwork is the key, and that really supersedes a bunch of "athletic" hot dogs if you want to win the big games.

While we have tremendous talent, this team has different components and some significantly different assignments that we have to jell. We will, and it will be so much fun watching it, I believe. Go Duke! ;)

ricks

[Kedsy]

Not to be the bearer of negativism, but before we start with the usual "how great we are going to be" or "how great a particular player is going to be", I think we should wait and see how they players all respond to the new system after they play a few games that mean something.

I think Princeton will be a very good test. Their starting 5 have 2 Sr.'s, 2 Jr.'s and a Soph, with their two top reserves being sophs. They also have been using the same system for quite a few years, now. The system we are running is new to our players, and from what I gather from the last game, it appears to be still a bit confusing mentally. For example, our rebounding was lower than expected due to different players taking off for the fast break instead of crashing the boards. We still need to figure out how to get those boards while the right players do the break. Also, with the number of different players we have that are able to drive to the basket now, we will have to figure out a lot of different positioning that allows that to happen when we want it to happen, etc. We proved again last year that teamwork is the key, and that really supersedes a bunch of "athletic" hot dogs if you want to win the big games.

While we have tremendous talent, this team has different components and some significantly different assignments that we have to jell. We will, and it will be so much fun watching it, I believe. Go Duke! ;)

ricks

The good news is K understands all that and we have 10 days between the day most of the team probably realized they didn't completely understand the system yet (CPP game) and the Princeton game. I expect those 10 days are being used productively, and I'm looking forward to seeing the game.

[ricks68]

The good news is K understands all that and we have 10 days between the day most of the team probably realized they didn't completely understand the system yet (CPP game) and the Princeton game. I expect those 10 days are being used productively, and I'm looking forward to seeing the game.

Yes. I certainly agree. It will be fun to watch the adjustments Coach K made, and how well everyone responds. It will also be very, very interesting to see how each player has actually improved from last year against real game competition----especially Ryan and PlumI and II. And I am really curious about Seth Curry. Kyrie, I think, is going to make the usual Fr. mistakes, but will be a lot more dynamic to watch. Just my take on those players.

ricks

[brevity]

Whoever came of with this concept should be shot, really. Either drop the early round games or, have it where winner's advance, no matter what.

Oh, agreed. Every preseason tournament should be like the Maui Invitational. 8 teams in one location, each of which plays 3 games to determine the 1st to 8th place finishers.

[greybeard]

The battle against Princeton will not be won on the perimeter. Nor will it be won by the running game.

Princeton plays through the pivot, the pivot is their Kyrie. I have not seen the player/players whom Princeton has to occupy that position, but defending that position is what will dictate this game. Not who wins or loses, but how good or bad Duke looks.

See, whoever guards that pivot guy will be dealing with someone who is 15-17 feet from the basket, will be in no rush to get anywhere even when he is going somewhere, and who will be able to hurt you by scoring the ball in any of three or four different ways with no help from anyone, and his job will not be to do that, unless you (the defense) leaves the offense with no other choice.

Then, it will come down to defending a guy who can knock down a shot from where he has caught it--he will make sure he catches it in such a spot, will be able to dribble left or right making you guard the direct route to the basket, to stop the layup, only to give him what he really wants which is that hook shot. Of course, if a bounce and movement towards the basket in the wanning seconds draws help, the dribbler will be in balance, completely, and will get it off easily with the right weight and trajectory for someone to shoot a very high percentage shot as the clock is a second or two from expiration. If the help don't come, the hook shot will, maybe after a fake one way off a stop, and a hook coming back, but more often than not just a sweet sweeping hook with full body participation, high off the glass.

Very daunting to defend, assuming that Princeton has its usual center who has that in his arsenal. Before that, the center will be the quarterback, he will read his receivers after perhaps helping to set up their initial move to freedom and they and he will hurt people. The distribution on the exterior will be purposeful, but will not per se be designed to do anything other than take the opportunities that momentum yields. Opportunities for what? For them to know and for you to find out.

So, if Princeton has that guy or guys who play the pivot, the game will be a game that is decided by skill against skill, brain against brain, choices against choices, and a few key big plays that I expect Duke to make often and early enough to keep Princeton easily at arm's length. Should Duke be able to pull further away, that will be very impressive. I will not be surprised if they do; they will, however, have had to earn it. They will have to be smart as a team, opportunistic as individuals, especially on defense, and take and make good shots on offense.

And, that is how athleticism will have to manifest on the court when these two teams plays. No stop watches. No tape measures. Exceution of a team game based upon the laws of physics, the decisions players make, and how well athletes can execute and make it count when they get their chance. Think Judo here, sports fans, think the old time Globetrotters, that is the athletic contest that will be afoot. May the best athletes win.

[johnb]

the top 4 seeded teams in the "tourney", including Duke automatically advance to the semi-finals in Kansas City, whether or not they win their early round games.

Whoever came of with this concept should be shot, really. Either drop the early round games or, have it where winner's advance, no matter what.



I dunno. it's helpful for fans to be able to plan to travel and for teams to be able to efficiently schedule, and it's not like these early season tourneys are especially meaningful.

[77devil]

The battle against Princeton will not be won on the perimeter. Nor will it be won by the running game.

Princeton plays through the pivot, the pivot is their Kyrie. I have not seen the player/players whom Princeton has to occupy that position, but defending that position is what will dictate this game. Not who wins or loses, but how good or bad Duke looks.

See, whoever guards that pivot guy will be dealing with someone who is 15-17 feet from the basket, will be in no rush to get anywhere even when he is going somewhere, and who will be able to hurt you by scoring the ball in any of three or four different ways with no help from anyone, and his job will not be to do that, unless you (the defense) leaves the offense with no other choice.

Then, it will come down to defending a guy who can knock down a shot from where he has caught it--he will make sure he catches it in such a spot, will be able to dribble left or right making you guard the direct route to the basket, to stop the layup, only to give him what he really wants which is that hook shot. Of course, if a bounce and movement towards the basket in the wanning seconds draws help, the dribbler will be in balance, completely, and will get it off easily with the right weight and trajectory for someone to shoot a very high percentage shot as the clock is a second or two from expiration. If the help don't come, the hook shot will, maybe after a fake one way off a stop, and a hook coming back, but more often than not just a sweet sweeping hook with full body participation, high off the glass.

Very daunting to defend, assuming that Princeton has its usual center who has that in his arsenal. Before that, the center will be the quarterback, he will read his receivers after perhaps helping to set up their initial move to freedom and they and he will hurt people. The distribution on the exterior will be purposeful, but will not per se be designed to do anything other than take the opportunities that momentum yields. Opportunities for what? For them to know and for you to find out.

So, if Princeton has that guy or guys who play the pivot, the game will be a game that is decided by skill against skill, brain against brain, choices against choices, and a few key big plays that I expect Duke to make often and early enough to keep Princeton easily at arm's length. Should Duke be able to pull further away, that will be very impressive. I will not be surprised if they do; they will, however, have had to earn it. They will have to be smart as a team, opportunistic as individuals, especially on defense, and take and make good shots on offense.

And, that is how athleticism will have to manifest on the court when these two teams plays. No stop watches. No tape measures. Exceution of a team game based upon the laws of physics, the decisions players make, and how well athletes can execute and make it count when they get their chance. Think Judo here, sports fans, think the old time Globetrotters, that is the athletic contest that will be afoot. May the best athletes win.

I'll offer a simpler prediction. Duke will win this game handily regardless of Princeton's pivot, "the laws of physics," Judo, or whatever. I have no idea what you mean by the old time Globetrotters reference(Those games were staged.)

Duke is 13-1 against Princeton since 1960 including 3 decisive wins in the mid 70's when the relative strength of the teams were as close as anytime.(Duke was at a low point and Princeton won the NIT when it mean something, and had 2 players who subsequently played in the NBA.)

Interestingly, the only loss was an away game in Coach K's first season.

[greybeard]

I'll offer a simpler prediction. Duke will win this game handily regardless of Princeton's pivot, "the laws of physics," Judo, or whatever. I have no idea what you mean by the old time Globetrotters reference(Those games were staged.)

Duke is 13-1 against Princeton since 1960 including 3 decisive wins in the mid 70's when the relative strength of the teams were as close as anytime.(Duke was at a low point and Princeton won the NIT when it mean something, and had 2 players who subsequently played in the NBA.)

Interestingly, the only loss was an away game in Coach K's first season.

That's why they play em Duke77, that's why they play em. Duke has not done real well against the Princeton. Georgetown took them apart twice in the last few years playing that offense, and Princeton, well, they know how to play it.

There was, in the old globe trotters play, a wonderful use of the pivot as the fulcrum for ball movement, as the play making spot on the court, made all the more potent in that regard by a simple shot, known as a hook shot, which is a lost art in most all of basketball except for hello, people who play the Princeton.

So, it really doesn't matter if Mason or Miles are stronger or can jump higher or can do any of a number of things "more" than a pivot player who can bounce it either way under control on an attack to the basket that they must stop and in order to do that leave open and available a clear path to the best spot on the court to shoot the most reliable shot ever invented except for a layup (sorry dunking is not shooting, it is dunking) but has the added advantage over a layup which is that it is if done with grace and real arc and lean and a feathery release all but impossible to disturb.

That was easy to see when Meadowlark played the pivot, the efficacy of that shot, and the way an offense could depend on a pivot player, and not a point guard, as a playmaker. Georgetown showed Duke twice in recent years how a high post player with talent could be the best playmaker on the court and could finish on charges to the basket better than anyone on the court, while also making passes for layups and threes better than anyone on the court.

So, to make the subtle obvious, because subtle is lost on some folks, it struck me that the image of the Globetrotters playing through a guy who had to be the best of the playmakers and hook shot artists who ever lived would create an image that people of your vintage, I'm only guessing her, D, would have a vivid recollection of.

Now, whether Duke runs away with the game or not is hardly the point. The why, it seems to me, would be. To me, the why will be because this team, this brand spanking new duke team will show me something that will really impress me, it will show me a few things that will really impress me that I, unlike the majority of people, am not willing to seed to a group of young players before they coalllesce and show it.

They will have to show focus on defense and discipline. The big who guards the pivot will have a real challenge and I am not sure how someone, anyone, deals with that effectively if Princeton has a center that has the skills a usual Princeton center has. If Princeton does not have such a player, I should be somewhat surprised because they did very well last year, gave an exceptional Cornell team, and they were exceptional, a real run, and have lost little. If they do, then Mason, Miles, Ryan or Kyle is going to have to show me more than I've seen from any of them but Kyle ever before. Since I doubt that Kyle draws the assignment of guarding the post guy unless Duke is having more trouble than anyone has a right to expect, but could happen, then I shall be pleasantly surprised by one of Duke's bigs. That would be great since I think that defense, intelligent, creative, opportunistic defense from an inside defender by Duke will be necessary for Duke to reach its potential. But, show me the money.

We will also need to see Duke take good shots and make em. Period. Bad shot selection, turnovers, throwing it out the window on a lob that the big did not indicate he wanted, will not cut the cake. It could cost much more against a Princeton than most other teams.

Third, some of Duke's players, and I'm thinking mostly Kyle and Nolan, but it could be Kyrie or Dawkins or Curry, will have to see a mistake my a Princeton guy and jump on it and then not screw the pooch but make the turnover count, make it produce a basket and maybe a run of 4-8 points. That will need to happen a couple of times, an opportunistic, smart, tough play that will turn Princeton over and get for duke something easy that converts.

We see these things and see Duke stay focused and patient on defense, patient, focused and accurate on offense, and we might well see the result you predict.

We then will know that these young guys are not only gifted, we all know that, but also that they are smart, disciplined, poised, and on the same page, that they know how to win.

The score will either reflect these very unproven and important qualities or the game will be much, much more of a context than you expect, in my opinion.

You see, D, numbers do not impress me; performance in important areas does, and that is what this game should evoke, that is what I think playing Princeton well will demand.

And, when you see that hook shot go in time and again as you might, think of Meadowlark, who made them regularly from half court, but more importantly from the very spot that the Princeton Center, if he is worthy of the name, will try to force Duke to yield to him. If he can do that late in the clock, Princeton becomes a very tough out for anyone.

[ricks68]

That's why they play em Duke77, that's why they play em. Duke has not done real well against the Princeton. Georgetown took them apart twice in the last few years playing that offense, and Princeton, well, they know how to play it.

There was, in the old globe trotters play, a wonderful use of the pivot as the fulcrum for ball movement, as the play making spot on the court, made all the more potent in that regard by a simple shot, known as a hook shot, which is a lost art in most all of basketball except for hello, people who play the Princeton.

So, it really doesn't matter if Mason or Miles are stronger or can jump higher or can do any of a number of things "more" than a pivot player who can bounce it either way under control on an attack to the basket that they must stop and in order to do that leave open and available a clear path to the best spot on the court to shoot the most reliable shot ever invented except for a layup (sorry dunking is not shooting, it is dunking) but has the added advantage over a layup which is that it is if done with grace and real arc and lean and a feathery release all but impossible to disturb.

That was easy to see when Meadowlark played the pivot, the efficacy of that shot, and the way an offense could depend on a pivot player, and not a point guard, as a playmaker. Georgetown showed Duke twice in recent years how a high post player with talent could be the best playmaker on the court and could finish on charges to the basket better than anyone on the court, while also making passes for layups and threes better than anyone on the court.

So, to make the subtle obvious, because subtle is lost on some folks, it struck me that the image of the Globetrotters playing through a guy who had to be the best of the playmakers and hook shot artists who ever lived would create an image that people of your vintage, I'm only guessing her, D, would have a vivid recollection of.

Now, whether Duke runs away with the game or not is hardly the point. The why, it seems to me, would be. To me, the why will be because this team, this brand spanking new duke team will show me something that will really impress me, it will show me a few things that will really impress me that I, unlike the majority of people, am not willing to seed to a group of young players before they coalllesce and show it.

They will have to show focus on defense and discipline. The big who guards the pivot will have a real challenge and I am not sure how someone, anyone, deals with that effectively if Princeton has a center that has the skills a usual Princeton center has. If Princeton does not have such a player, I should be somewhat surprised because they did very well last year, gave an exceptional Cornell team, and they were exceptional, a real run, and have lost little. If they do, then Mason, Miles, Ryan or Kyle is going to have to show me more than I've seen from any of them but Kyle ever before. Since I doubt that Kyle draws the assignment of guarding the post guy unless Duke is having more trouble than anyone has a right to expect, but could happen, then I shall be pleasantly surprised by one of Duke's bigs. That would be great since I think that defense, intelligent, creative, opportunistic defense from an inside defender by Duke will be necessary for Duke to reach its potential. But, show me the money.

We will also need to see Duke take good shots and make em. Period. Bad shot selection, turnovers, throwing it out the window on a lob that the big did not indicate he wanted, will not cut the cake. It could cost much more against a Princeton than most other teams.

Third, some of Duke's players, and I'm thinking mostly Kyle and Nolan, but it could be Kyrie or Dawkins or Curry, will have to see a mistake my a Princeton guy and jump on it and then not screw the pooch but make the turnover count, make it produce a basket and maybe a run of 4-8 points. That will need to happen a couple of times, an opportunistic, smart, tough play that will turn Princeton over and get for duke something easy that converts.

We see these things and see Duke stay focused and patient on defense, patient, focused and accurate on offense, and we might well see the result you predict.

We then will know that these young guys are not only gifted, we all know that, but also that they are smart, disciplined, poised, and on the same page, that they know how to win.

The score will either reflect these very unproven and important qualities or the game will be much, much more of a context than you expect, in my opinion.

You see, D, numbers do not impress me; performance in important areas does, and that is what this game should evoke, that is what I think playing Princeton well will demand.

And, when you see that hook shot go in time and again as you might, think of Meadowlark, who made them regularly from half court, but more importantly from the very spot that the Princeton Center, if he is worthy of the name, will try to force Duke to yield to him. If he can do that late in the clock, Princeton becomes a very tough out for anyone.

Now pay attention, young'uns, and listen up. Grey knows his stuff. To help translate, he is saying that it is a game of strategy and execution. Coach K's history of strategy and teaching how to pull it off is excellent, but the players have to learn how to execute it as a team for it to succeed. It's a learning process for this new collection of athletes.

ricks

[Orange&BlackSheep]

what I have to say amounts to anything remotely of perceived value, I thought I would chime in quickly. It is always fun reading how the rest of the world perceives us for whom Halloween is a year round fashion color palette. And while there is quite a bit of basketball knowledge found in this board and within this thread, some of the analysis rings a little hollow since it is not based on our actual personnel.

So with your permission, I am going to wait to offer my preview until after we play Rutgers this Friday. While I am very familiar with what Messrs Davis, Mavraides, Maddox, etal. bring to the table, I am wholly unsure what our bigs are going to offer since none of them saw the floor too often last year. We also lost our main ball handler. And of course we have some freshmen that are talked about fondly since hope always but always springs eternal.

In general I would say that the sheer volume of great athletes playing basketball has reduced the athleticism gap between the good teams and great teams over the last twenty years, and one can see that within the Princeton program. That said, there will not be a game that Princeton plays this year where this athleticism gap will be more evident.

Check back in Saturday if a preview written on the basis of one game played is of any interest. :)

Yours Truly,

Orange & Black Sheep

[COYS]

what I have to say amounts to anything remotely of perceived value, I thought I would chime in quickly. It is always fun reading how the rest of the world perceives us for whom Halloween is a year round fashion color palette. And while there is quite a bit of basketball knowledge found in this board and within this thread, some of the analysis rings a little hollow since it is not based on our actual personnel.

So with your permission, I am going to wait to offer my preview until after we play Rutgers this Friday. While I am very familiar with what Messrs Davis, Mavraides, Maddox, etal. bring to the table, I am wholly unsure what our bigs are going to offer since none of them saw the floor too often last year. We also lost our main ball handler. And of course we have some freshmen that are talked about fondly since hope always but always springs eternal.

In general I would say that the sheer volume of great athletes playing basketball has reduced the athleticism gap between the good teams and great teams over the last twenty years, and one can see that within the Princeton program. That said, there will not be a game that Princeton plays this year where this athleticism gap will be more evident.

Check back in Saturday if a preview written on the basis of one game played is of any interest. :)

Yours Truly,

Orange & Black Sheep

I, too, am looking forward to Princeton's opener against Rutgers. Kenpom actually has us favored over our ancient rivals. I think the most interesting thing to see is who actually nails down the center position for Princeton. The best teams Princeton had under JTIII featured Judson Wallace at the 5 who, at 7'0, could shoot over/pass around most defenses from the high post. Having a guy like that is such an asset in the Princeton system. I'm do not think that we have anyone of that caliber on the roster, yet. Barrett and/or Connolly will have to dramatically improve their game to become major factors at the 5 and our recruiting class, while excellent by Ivy standards, does not bring in any help at the 5. Of course, post players generally develop more slowly and both of those guys are set to make the frosh-soph leap so maybe one or both of them can establish themselves. We'll see. Looking forward to your analysis after Friday's game.

[Orange&BlackSheep]

The best teams Princeton had under JTIII featured Judson Wallace at the 5 who, at 7'0, could shoot over/pass around most defenses from the high post.

Judson was only 6'9" or so IIRC but, yes, he was the 5 for the majority of the JTIII era. The best examples in the past twenty years of 5's that controlled the game from the pivot were Kit Mueller '91 and Steve Goodrich '98 (and perhaps Chris Young now of Padres fame who left early for pro baseball -- boy was that a loss -- and Nate Walton (Bill Walton's son) was an absolutely incredible passer form the post).

[COYS]

Judson was only 6'9" or so IIRC but, yes, he was the 5 for the majority of the JTIII era. The best examples in the past twenty years of 5's that controlled the game from the pivot were Kit Mueller '91 and Steve Goodrich '98 (and perhaps Chris Young now of Padres fame who left early for pro baseball -- boy was that a loss -- and Nate Walton (Bill Walton's son) was an absolutely incredible passer form the post).

You are right about Wallace's height. I remembered him taller . . . of course that was probably because the Ivy League usually doesn't have as much height in general so he appeared taller on a relative scale. Agree with Chris Young, but I'd say it appears he made the right choice. ;)

[greybeard]

Judson was only 6'9" or so IIRC but, yes, he was the 5 for the majority of the JTIII era. The best examples in the past twenty years of 5's that controlled the game from the pivot were Kit Mueller '91 and Steve Goodrich '98 (and perhaps Chris Young now of Padres fame who left early for pro baseball -- boy was that a loss -- and Nate Walton (Bill Walton's son) was an absolutely incredible passer form the post).

When JTIII played against Pops and Patrick in the NCAAs, however, Princeton had a 6'7" center who put the fear of G-d into Georgetown which had to claw its way to a few point victory. Most Princeton centers were in the 6'7"-6' 9" height range. You might recall JTIII benching Hibbert and playing Green at the pivot position when Georgetown came of age beating JJ and Shelden in DC the latters' senior years.

The high pivot position, in which the pivot player literally is the fulcrum for action and also often is the most potent scorer brought the Knicks their second and last Championship when Jerry Lucas played that spot. Most significantly, it was from that spot, and in that very roll, that MJ was at his greatest potency. It also has made an All Star and champion of Gasol in LA.

Offenses which deploy that way to me are the most interesting to watch, hands down. However, it takes a special talent and a collective understanding of the other players on the floor to work such a system, to bring it to life. As Phil put it so often, quoting Rudyard, "The strength of the pack is in the wolf, and the strength of the wolf is in the pack."

I think that that type of vision informed the Championship team fielded by Duke last year, with the deployment of a high post pivot who was central to much of the offense but who uniquely in my memory did so with rarely ever touching the ball, except off the board.

[Orange&BlackSheep]

When JTIII played against Pops and Patrick in the NCAAs, however, Princeton had a 6'7" center who put the fear of G-d into Georgetown which had to claw its way to a few point victory. Most Princeton centers were in the 6'7"-6' 9" height range.

The center you reference was Kit Mueller '91 who is indeed 6'7" but played against Pops and Alonzo Mourning not Patrick Ewing who was already a Knick. I was at that game in Providence where the Notre Dame faithful were cheering for Princeton real hard (we did not have a lot of fans there). It was a one point victory. And we had the ball with a shot to win.

[CEF1959]

I know it's a bit off topic, but I want to say that I really like Princeton as a team. They play in the Ivy League, which is a bit of a disadvantage in recruiting. Great academics, scandal free, winning program, etc. They use intelligence and good coaching to overachieve. And how many teams (let alone those that don't compete for national titles) have offenses named after them?

Won't be enough though. Duke 83-62.

[greybeard]

I know it's a bit off topic, but I want to say that I really like Princeton as a team. They play in the Ivy League, which is a bit of a disadvantage in recruiting. Great academics, scandal free, winning program, etc. They use intelligence and good coaching to overachieve. And how many teams (let alone those that don't compete for national titles) have offenses named after them?

Won't be enough though. Duke 83-62.

Every team uses intelligence to play this game, in every aspect of play. Playing more cleverly as a team, however, is often sacrificed on the mantel of attracting talent that can wow, that can make ESPN, that aspire to make the Show.

Playing more cleverly as a team also requires an understanding of learning that many coaches do not possess, and therefore a team will not progress over time in ever changing and more complicated ways, offensive and defensive changes from game to game that have real impact, like your team did last year in extraordinary fashion. Directing players does not build understanding, does not help people learn this or any other game. Many successful coaches don't know that, and, if they do, do not possess the ability, the understanding and commitment, to create learning environments.

The offense should be called "the Carrill", who has done more to preserve and enhance an aspect of play that predominated during the beginning years of the pro game on through the Russell era and slightly beyond. The other true genuis of the offensive game played through the pivot is Tex Winter, whose Triangle concepts, like Carrills dazzle and tickle my mind while alluding it.

As for "overachieving," I do not like the word, it presupposes a reality that is unreal, and that would be the premise that so-called athleticism--speed. jumping ability, quickness--dictates outcomes. They don't. By the way, what dictates outcomes more and more in the world of sport that worships on the alter of such athleticism is its by-product--and that would be injury.

Injury, in the end, determines outcomes, and those who avoid them, those who develop styles of play which miminimize them, enhance their chances of success significantly. Need I remind you that the style that Duke played last year on both ends did just that.

[Orange&BlackSheep]

When JTIII played against Pops and Patrick in the NCAAs, however, Princeton had a 6'7" center who put the fear of G-d into Georgetown which had to claw its way to a few point victory. Most Princeton centers were in the 6'7"-6' 9" height range.

I would have edited my previous post, but it does not let me. Probably a time limit.

JT III graduated in 1988 so was not on the floor against his Dad that day. Something was bothering me about that since I never remembered the human interest story of Dad vs Son being thrown around at that time.

[greybeard]

I would have edited my previous post, but it does not let me. Probably a time limit.

JT III graduated in 1988 so was not on the floor against his Dad that day. Something was bothering me about that since I never remembered the human interest story of Dad vs Son being thrown around at that time.

Good get! He was at the game though and was interviewed; the Thompson connection was ventilated plenty that game, but I believe that they ommitted mentioning, well maybe they didn't, it was a while ago, another strong connection that JTII had to the Princeton program, actually to the Princeton team that was on the floor that night.

Princeton was lead by a star freshman point guard, George Leftwich, Jr., who was like a nephew to Big John. John's three-year teammate at Archbishop Carrol high school which won three city titles was Jr's dad, who was named All-Met first team three years running (only done three times I think). GL Sr. went on to star at Villinova, and had a long career in coaching ball in the DC area, which included a 7-year stint as the coach at his and John's alma matar where, if memory serves, Big John also got his start. In 2010, George, then the AD at Carrol, hired former Georgetown great Reggie Williams as an assistant men's basketball coach.

[Orange&BlackSheep]

Good get! He was at the game though and was interviewed; the Thompson connection was ventilated plenty that game, but I believe that they ommitted mentioning, well maybe they didn't, it was a while ago, another strong connection that JTII had to the Princeton program, actually to the Princeton team that was on the floor that night.

Princeton was lead by a star freshman point guard, George Leftwich, Jr., who was like a nephew to Big John. John's three-year teammate at Archbishop Carrol high school which won three city titles was Jr's dad, who was named All-Met first team three years running (only done three times I think). GL Sr. went on to star at Villinova, and had a long career in coaching ball in the DC area, which included a 7-year stint as the coach at his and John's alma matar where, if memory serves, Big John also got his start. In 2010, George, then the AD at Carrol, hired former Georgetown great Reggie Williams as an assistant men's basketball coach.

Wow, I never knew that connection. Very interesting.

I have to say that I would not have described George Leftwich as a star nor leader of the team at that point :) Frankly, the fact that he was not a threat from the outside was a real hindrance to the team for his years there. He was savvy with the ball though and the fact that he did not turn it over in that game (or any other) was invaluable to us -- especially when we played the "big boys" who thought they could press us into submission.

[greybeard]

Wow, I never knew that connection. Very interesting.

I have to say that I would not have described George Leftwich as a star nor leader of the team at that point :) Frankly, the fact that he was not a threat from the outside was a real hindrance to the team for his years there. He was savvy with the ball though and the fact that he did not turn it over in that game (or any other) was invaluable to us -- especially when we played the "big boys" who thought they could press us into submission.

After you pointed out that JTIII had graduated, I did a little digging and I believe it was an SI article about the game which described Leftwich as the floor leader of the team. I remember being very impressed with him the times I saw him play on TV. His old man joined with Wally Jones in the backcourt at Villinova. The son of a close friend of mine from my Cornell days played for the elder Leftwich his last year of coaching. At Sidwell Friends.

Douglas, 6'4" maybe 170 lbs., was an amazingly clever player, both basketball and soccer (striker who scored over 20 games his senior year), and was best on the exterior but Leftwich had him playing center. There was a game against Maret, which, in addition to a 6'4" guard with pro potential--had a productive college career at Richmond after starting out at Va Tech I think--had a 6'7" beast at center, who went at least 250. Leftwich sat Douglas because he wasn't physical enough on defense against this manchild, sat him an entire quarter at least. Well, Douglas played this guy tough, and at one point took a charge that lead to his braches being on the outside of his upper lip instead of the inside. Douglas stayed in the game. Teammates cut of the same cloth, he and Big John, right?

Another interesting historical note. Ian Hummer, whom I believe starts at forward for Princeton, is the son of Ed Hummer, who was the second best player on the '64 Princeton team lead by Bradley. Ian's uncle John, joined Ed at Princeton, and was a two time all Ivy, and co-captained the '70 team with Joeff Petrie. The team had great promise, Ed spent 7 years in the pros and Petrie of course was a perenial All Star. While the team ended up going undefeated in Ivy League play, the early hype got dashed, and the season itself seemed in jeopardy, when they got trounced by you know who.

Fun kicking it around, O. Thanks.

[Namtilal]

Game is on ESPN3!!! It wasn't listed a few days ago, but I just checked again.

[superdave]

Game is on ESPN3!!! It wasn't listed a few days ago, but I just checked again.


EspnU on Dish Network in DC. I think U and 3 are the same.

[loran16]

EspnU on Dish Network in DC. I think U and 3 are the same.

But Most games on ESPNU will also be available on ESPN3. Not always though.

[94duke]

goduke.com has ESPNU listed:
http://www.goduke.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&SPID=1845&SPSID=22726

[Tappan Zee Devil]

goduke.com has ESPNU listed:
http://www.goduke.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&SPID=1845&SPSID=22726

Direct TV also has ESPNU listed. Just set it up (via the internet) to record at home since I am in southern Chile until the end of the month

By the way - the ads on DBR down here are in Spanish

[pfrduke]

EspnU on Dish Network in DC. I think U and 3 are the same.

Not singling you out by quoting you, but just attempting to make something clear that people seem to be confused about:

ESPNU is a television channel (for me, channel 621), just like ESPN2 or ESPN.

ESPN3 is not a television channel. It is a web service, provided online at espn3.com, that allows people with certain service providers to watch live sporting events online.

Many times, but not always, a game that is on one of the ESPN television channels will be available online at ESPN3. The Princeton game, apparently, is one such game. Also, on some occasions, a game that is not on an ESPN television channel will nonetheless be available on ESPN3.

[pfrduke]

We may learn a little more about Princeton after tonight - they face Rutgers in their first game of the season (and as of this writing are off to an early 4-2 lead).

[CEF1959]

And what current sports celeb starred for Princeton the last time they beat Duke?

[DukieInBrasil]

And what current sports celeb starred for Princeton the last time they beat Duke?

Isn't Bill Bradley the only sports celeb Princeton has?
I jest, sort of.

[Namtilal]

Regarding ESPN3: I don't get it through my cable company, but my mother has comcast, and they offer it. All I had to do was create an email account for myself with her comcast account, and I can use that wherever I am to log on and watch! Easy, victimless crime. I would feel bad if they offered subscriptions to ESPN3, but they don't.

[jipops]

I may be in the minority here but I'm not expecting a handy defeat by Duke Sunday evening. I'm more expecting a bit of what we saw in the Cal Poly game. Princeton is going to keep it slow which might frustrate our guys and get us out of sync since we so badly want to run. Now I do expect a relatively comfortable margin but Princeton will be in this one for a majority of the 40.

This could be an interesting test for Mason and Miles defensively. I'm interested to see how they react to Princeton's offense around the lane. I'm willing to bet that Kelly shows us some good stuff in this one. The pace may fit him well. It's also an interesting test for Kyrie, will he be able to dictate any tempo, if not, how much will it frustrate him?

[Tappan Zee Devil]

so, they are for real.
We need to be ready

[77devil]

so, they are for real.
We need to be ready

Princeton was favored by the betting line -7 and by Ken Pomeroy -4. Rutgers was a Big East bottom feeder last year at 15-17, 5-13 in the conference and is ranked 149 this year by Pomeroy.

Duke always needs to be ready. We'll get everybody's best shot this year as usual. But the Princeton win in OT at home over a weak Rutgers team hardly suggests a meaningful challenge ahead.

[Orange&BlackSheep]

Greetings fellow board members. Having just watched nearly 2,000 Rutgers fans head back to New Brunswick, NJ empty-handed (I am guessing about 1/3 of the crowd were Rutgers fans --yes, it is annoying), I offer you my take on who we are and what if any threat we pose to the alma mater of the rest of my family. Feel free to integrate any part of this into the site's game preview if it is of any value.

First, may I pre-emptively ask not to be accused of woofing? Realism is not woofing. Just because Chaminade beat Virginia does not mean that a fan of a team cannot dispassionately maintain that his squad has no realistic chance of victory. I have been watching Princeton basketball long enough to know the kinds of teams to whom we pose a threat. Here is what I see.

Princeton is coming off what was universally viewed as a very successful season, gaining momentum as the season progressed. Finishing 11-3 in the Ivy League (losing to Cornell twice, and a home loss to Yale?!?!? -- boy was that game a buzzkill) when they were picked to do no such thing has everyone firmly on the Sydney Johnson bandwagon. Some of you might remember Sydney Johnson '97 for hitting big three after big three against defending national champion UCLA as the Tigers finally got over the hump and gave legendary Coach Carrill a wonderful going away present in his final season. That the final bucket came on a back door cut proves that there is a basketball god.

This year's collection of Tigers lost some key players to graduation, most notably all of the minutes which occupied the 5 -- an incredibly key position in the Princeton offense. But we did return our top five leading scorers. That can't be a bad thing. Here is a quick rundown of the personnel in the rotation:

The Princeton backcourt consists of Senior guard Dan Mavraides and Junior guard Doug Davis. They are the leading scorers for the team and scored 48% and 56% of their points respectively from behind the arc. You can be sure that they are not afraid to let it fly out to 22-23 ft. If I had to come up with an analog from the Duke pantheon to give you an idea how these two play, I would say that Mavraides's game is very similar to Greg Paulus's. Doug Davis's doppleganger would be Sean Dockery with a slightly better three-pointer from everywhere except half-court. Don't expect either of them to break down a defense off the dribble, but if you pressure the ball and give them an opening, they will try to penetrate. Doug D has shown an ability to pull up and hit a mid-range jumper if that is what the defense is giving him. The two of them are excellent free throw shooters -- especially Doug D who shot 87.5% last year.

Soph Ian Hummer and 6'8" Senior Kareem Maddox defend the opposition's forwards. Ian is a 6'7" 2nd generation Tiger. His father played with Dollar Bill Bradley and was later joined by his Uncle (Thanks for the history lesson, Greybeard!). He is a very unique player for the Princeton team in as much as he has no outside game and wants to score his points on slow-developing drives and post moves. He is listed at 226, but he seems to play much bigger than that. He seems to be one of those guys that is just excellent at getting bigger defenders off balance and finding a way to lay the ball in from close range with either hand.

Kareem Maddox's analog is definitely Casey Sanders. He has clearly hit the weight room since last year and is incredibly athletic. As a Princeton fan used to seeing larger opponents play ping pong on the offensive glass until one of the follows dropped in, it is a true joy to have someone big enough and with his leaping ability to wipe the defensive glass clean. All of Kareem's points this evening against Rutgers came on dunks save for a free throw.

6'11" Sophomore Brendan Connelly mans the middle for the Tigers. Brendan basically did not see the floor last year, trapped behind an experienced Senior center. As you would expect from a 6'11" Ivy League center, Brendan is not very fleet of foot but he compensates for his slowness with weak post moves and a weaker grasp of what it means to be an effective high post passer. There is no analog for him at Duke because if there were, Brendan would not be at Princeton. Tonight against Rutgers he pulled down an offensive rebound and, not realizing he was basically alone, took one dribble away from the basket towards his defender and then tried a hook shot. He lost it going up and shot it off his elbow.

Sydney seems to be adopting the Coach K short bench theory of rotation management (kidding!) as only three players saw the floor off the bench and only one had double-digits in minutes played in an OT game where Kareem Maddox sat for the first eight minutes of the second half with foul trouble. 6'9" Mack Darrow played 17 minutes and came in to spell the bigs a bit. He did hit a three and later made two CLUTCH free throws to give us a four-point lead in OT. The other two that saw the floor were freshmen T.J. Bray and Will Barrett. Neither of them seem like they are going to have immediate impact.

The game against Rutgers was a good tune up for the Tigers in preparation for their shot at Devil downing glory. Mavraides hit his first four three pointers on his way to a career high 26 (displaying some JJ Redick-like 'tude as he held up three fingers and back pedaled his way down court after his 4th three) and the Tigers did a good job at preventing second chance shots building a thirteen point lead midway through the first half. Sadly, while those first 30 points came fast and furiously, the next thirty-five decidedly did not. Rutgers switched to a zone with Mavraides on the bench and the offense immediately floundered. Davis seemed a little off, shooting 2-9 from three, but he is the one that always seems to have the ball when the music stops and so is stuck taking some tough shots that only Kobe makes consistently.

With four minutes to go in the game, Rutgers was up four, and it was not looking good. But Mavraides hit a big three, Hummer made a beautiful little scoop, and Rutgers had an offensive foul on a drive to the basket with 3 seconds to go and the game tied. It was hard not to be impressed with our execution in the first ten minutes, those closing minutes, and then in the overtime.

So what are my expectations for the match up with Duke? This is not a vintage Princeton team because it is missing that great interior passer who works the high post with aplomb. There were exactly zero points scored on back door cuts this evening. Duke's desire to pressure the ball and be up in the passing lanes is actually exactly the kind of defense a more skilled team that runs the Princeton offense likes to face. Last year's Georgetown game is perhaps an example of this though last year's team did not play defense the same way that a typical Coach K defense does.

Rutgers pressure defense was quite effective in the second half at getting Princeton out of its rhythm. Given the fact that Rutgers does not play good team defense, I think we can expect that Duke will be even more effective in preventing the Tigers from executing their offense. Princeton will as always try to limit the number of possessions in the game, but they are going to have a very hard time getting quality shots on each trip down. Couple that fact with our lack of offensive rebounding and you have that time honored dynamic where you are only getting one shot per trip and your opponent is getting somewhat more than that. I think there will be moments in the game where the Tigers hit a few shots and expose this Duke team that is feeling its way a bit, but I would be surprised if the final score is not something like 72-45. Doug Davis might try to keep Kyrie in front of him when the Tigers are in man, but I am sure there will be a large helping of zone being served to try to counter Duke's superior size and quickness. That seems like a bad idea against Duke. A really bad idea. The Tigers need this game to be played in the fifties to have any chance at all.

[ncexnyc]

I've finished reading the thread concerning UNC's game last night and the majority of posters have basically stated that they were not impressed with what they saw.

I believe it's only fair to ask our board members to post ahead of time, what would constitute an impressive performance my our team tomorrow night. Let's also post what a solid stat line should look like for Kyrie.

[ACCBBallFan]

Thanks for the scouting report, Orange&BlackSheep. A little different than what I had inferred from the box score.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/roster/_/id/163/sort/experience

Princeton returns 4 leading socrers from a 22-9 team.

For an IVy team Tigers have some height @ 6'11" 252' 6'8" 230 nad 6'7" 226 (fouled out) with 6'10" 197 and 6'9" 225 subs.

Pretty much the same academic year makeup as Duke with two seniors and one junior who played last night, 4 Sophs.and 1 frosh.

Center led the team with 5 assists, probably of back door cut variety (edit- wroing according to poster).

http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=303160163

Princeton appears strongest where Duke is strong with bulk of the scoring coming from the two guard spots and SF.

[BigZ]

Prediction:
Duke 93
Princeton 68

[Orange&BlackSheep]

Thanks for the scouting report, Orange&BlackSheep. A little different than what I had inferred from the box score.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/roster/_/id/163/sort/experience

Princeton returns 4 leading socrers from a 22-9 team.

For an IVy team Tigers have some height @ 6'11" 252' 6'8" 230 nad 6'7" 226 (fouled out) with 6'10" 197 and 6'9" 225 subs.

Pretty much the same academic year makeup as Duke with two seniors and one junior who played last night, 4 Sophs.and 1 frosh.

Center led the team with 5 assists, probably of back door cut variety (edit- wroing according to poster).

http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=303160163

Princeton appears strongest where Duke is strong with bulk of the scoring coming from the two guard spots and SF.

Back door cuts stand out for me so I would be very shocked if I missed one. I was very aware of the degree to which we were unable to generate anything via the high post center passing set. I have the game program in my hand with last year's stats. The top five scorers are still on the team.

[Troublemaker]

Free Blue Ribbon preview of Princeton here: http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/insider/news/story?id=5702924

Princeton has played one game so far, beating Rutgers in overtime. Box score here: http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/boxscore?gid=201011120471

From the box score, the Tigers don't appear to be very deep (5 players playing 37+ minutes). Duke should probably wear this team out pretty good over the course of the game, if the planned up-tempo style is executed.

As Deslok posted, in-game DBR chat will also occur at www.snrub.com as usual

Excited for the season to finally start in earnest!

[Troublemaker]

Thanks for the heads up, Kedsy, and for the thread merge, pfr. Somehow completely missed this thread.

Duke is a 23.5 point favorite.

About 5 hours out from tip, I'm getting pretty excited. This will be my first glimpse of Kyrie Irving so I think I'm most looking forward to that.

[Troublemaker]

I've finished reading the thread concerning UNC's game last night and the majority of posters have basically stated that they were not impressed with what they saw.

I believe it's only fair to ask our board members to post ahead of time, what would constitute an impressive performance my our team tomorrow night. Let's also post what a solid stat line should look like for Kyrie.

Personally, since it's the team's first game and my first time watching them this season, I just hope and expect to get a feeling that the team is very talented at each position. They could generate that feeling while looking sloppy or while looking sharp and I wouldn't be surprised either way since it's Game #1. I'll be more than satisfied if the team just flashes the athleticism and shooting range that's been much discussed about this team.

Thanks to Orange&BlackSheep for his Princeton preview above. I feel very informed about Duke's opponent today having read your post.

[Cockabeau]

Rodney Purvis will be at the game...:)

[timmy c]

I've finished reading the thread concerning UNC's game last night and the majority of posters have basically stated that they were not impressed with what they saw.

I believe it's only fair to ask our board members to post ahead of time, what would constitute an impressive performance my our team tomorrow night. Let's also post what a solid stat line should look like for Kyrie.

I know you are looking for individual stats, but I think they're less important than the key stat for 2010-11 Duke team: Possessions FGAs –Off RBs + TOs + (0.475 x FTAs)

68 is my Mendoza line. Under 68 and I will be talking about how Duke struggled to impose their will on the game. If that number reaches 75 (or beyond), this game will be a bona fide blowout. My guess... 71 possessions.

For comparison, Princeton played 68 possessions in an overtime game against Rutgers on Friday.

[_TheFakeJWill_]

I personally can't wait to see how the 3/4 to full court D looks tonight :)

Over/under 3 ankle breaker from Kyrie :D

[camion]

I will be looking to see if we work to get good shots instead of taking the first shot available. As coach Wooden said, "Be quick, but don't hurry."

[Cockabeau]

I personally can't wait to see how the 3/4 to full court D looks tonight :)

Over/under 3 ankle breaker from Kyrie :D

wow don't ever say that man....

[theAlaskanBear]

Soooo excited, I can't wait! To be honest, this Princeton game is the type that scares the bejeezus out of me. They are an experienced team, strong guard play, and a style that Duke may have trouble guarding. They also have a game under their belt and have the season-opener jitters out of their system.

A question if anyone knows. How does the current Princeton offense differ from the offense Georgetown likes to run. It is the same but with different talent levels, or are there systemic changes?

GOOOO DUKE!

[CameronBornAndBred]

You have to tilt your head, but this was just posted by Cell-R on facebook. That's a nice sight to see.

1666

[Duke79UNLV77]

available anywhere?

[riverside6]

live tempo-based stats for Duke/Princeton:

http://www.scacchoops.com/ViewHDGame.asp?hSchedule=6843

starters are posted

[Indoor66]

available anywhere?

ESPN3.com

[1 24 90]

available anywhere?

espn3.com

[timmy c]

I think Len Elmore is doing the game... I'm avoiding his twaddle by listening at:
http://radiotime.com/station/s_28449/NewsTalk_990.aspx

[Cockabeau]

It will be interesting to see Len elmore terp while Duke destroys opponents thsi season....

[AlaskanAssassin]

Our half court defense isn't working. I hope K corrects it during the huddle.

[_TheFakeJWill_]

Kyrie is a stud!

[superdave]

These guys are playing at such a different pace than last year. This is the first time I've seen Kyrie play so it feels very different. Seems like if we can speed up Princeton without getting in a hurry ourselves, then we'll find the right balance. Lotta firepower.

[AlaskanAssassin]

a little sloppy on fastbreak. Nolan with a couple turnovers.

[kong123]

looks like a fast pace is only good when KI is in the game. Bad shot selection and too many turnovers for both teams early.

[Faison1]

Does anyone else's ESPN3.com suck, or is it just my computer?

[superdave]

looks like a fast pace is only good when KI is in the game. Bad shot selection and too many turnovers for both teams early.


Pretty sloppy by Duke so far. Getting their legs I suppose.

[kong123]

Nolan looks scary good. I wish someone on UNC could learn that little floater of his. That thing is deadly.

[ice-9]

Is it just me but...it's kinda weird to be watching a Duke game and not see Scheyer on the floor. :p

Boy we can be explosive!

[lotusland]

Kyle has been at the 4 with 3 guards at least half the time in the first half and probably more tham half. This was inevitable with our talented guards. I'm not sure why some regulars on here refused to acknowledge this would occur. I realize that Princeton is a smaller team but wouldn't we exploit the height advantage if our bigs were as talented as our perimeter players?

[superdave]

Kyle has been at the 4 with 3 guards at least half the time in the first half and probably more tham half. This was inevitable with our talented guards. I'm not sure why some regulars on here refused to acknowledge this would occur. I realize that Princeton is a smaller team but wouldn't we exploit the height advantage if our bigs were as talented as our perimeter players?

I think that's more of a matchup thing vs. the Princeton zone. Makes more sense to have Kyle at the elbows and have three shooters on the wing rather than two.

[slower]

Kyle and Nolan are studs, as usual.

Kyrie looks great, including free throws.

The Plumlees, particularly Mason, are not the answer so far. These guys HAVE to get it together. Mason is playing the same sloppy D as last year.

[DevilAlumna]

You have to tilt your head, but this was just posted by Cell-R on facebook. That's a nice sight to see.

1666

I noticed at the end of the half, that so many students were wearing the viking horns. What a great tribute to Drew.

[grannyduke]

What's with the Viking Horns. They don't look like devil horns.

[Saratoga2]

A few observations:

Duke is fouling more than Princeton.

No offense seems to be coming from the Plumlees

Has Kelly played, no stats from him.

Kyrie is putting up a lot of shots but hasn't seemed terribly efficient.

Anyone who has watched ought to chime in and give first hand observations.

[CLW]

Kyle has been at the 4 with 3 guards at least half the time in the first half and probably more tham half. This was inevitable with our talented guards. I'm not sure why some regulars on here refused to acknowledge this would occur. I realize that Princeton is a smaller team but wouldn't we exploit the height advantage if our bigs were as talented as our perimeter players?


I think that's more of a matchup thing vs. the Princeton zone. Makes more sense to have Kyle at the elbows and have three shooters on the wing rather than two.

Agree with superdave. If a team is going to 2-3 zone us the entire game why not get 4 shooters out on the court?

IMHO, we will see the more "traditional" 2 bigs Singler on the wing and 2 guards once ACC play hits.

[AlaskanAssassin]

No Josh nor Tyler yet. I hope they get a chance second half.

[lotusland]

The Plumlees, particularly Mason, are not the answer so far. These guys HAVE to get it together. Mason is playing the same sloppy D as last year.

Mason made a couple of nice passes from the high post for assists to Miles and Nolan early on but he shouldn't be jacking threes in the half court O with no one down low.

[Poincaré]

42 in 20 minutes against Princeton is not bad. I love the 6-to-1 assist-to-turnover ratio from Kyrie. Let's see if our bigs play a more inspired game in the 2nd half.

[gep]

Is it just me but...it's kinda weird to be watching a Duke game and not see Scheyer on the floor. :p

I also found that I was constantly looking for Zoubs getting every rebound...

[DukeHoo]

Some small notes:

The younger players look like they still need to get into the flow of things. Dre would throw the occasional errant pass, Curry doesn't quite seem to have a handle on when to shoot and when to pass, the usual communication issues with our younger players on defense (and the Plumlees...still), etc. These sorts of issues don't worry me too much, since they just take time and practice.

Kyrie looks very, very good. He already has 6 assists, in addition to 7 points and only 1 TO. He had some of the same aforementioned issues, especially against the 2-3 zone. I think it's fair to say he's going to be fun to watch this year.

Kyle and Nolan...'nuff said. They're both amazing. Kyle's shooting form in particular seems to have improved.

[lpd1982]

What's with the Viking Horns. They don't look like devil horns.

A tribute honoring Duke student Drew Eversen who passed away a few weeks ago. He always wore a Viking Helmet, even in a public fountain in Indianpolis after the championship win. Pants off, helmet on.

[lotusland]

Another nice pass off the dribble for mason to Kyrie...

[Oriole Way]

Cal!

[Son of Mojo]

Kyrie can absolutely do whatever he wants with the ball when he's handling it--extremely impressed with his play so far. Nice breakaway dunk by Josh also. Have to watch the silly fouls and TO's that have gone on through the game.

[gep]

Does anyone else's ESPN3.com suck, or is it just my computer?

espn3 is working very fine for me... even looks like HD... full screen on my computer

[Faison1]

Cal!

What is Cal's realtionship to the Program? It seems to me he shows up to games every year. Maybe I'm mistaken.

[superdave]

Mason made a couple of nice passes from the high post for assists to Miles and Nolan early on but he shouldn't be jacking threes in the half court O with no one down low.

Mason with a couple of nice plays in the high post. Once a hard dribble and dish to Seth I think, another was a quick pass that Irving then popped to Kyle for three.

Both the Plums have played fine, but with Princeton in a zone, our shots are coming form the wings.

[superdave]

A few observations:

Duke is fouling more than Princeton.

No offense seems to be coming from the Plumlees

Has Kelly played, no stats from him.

Kyrie is putting up a lot of shots but hasn't seemed terribly efficient.

Anyone who has watched ought to chime in and give first hand observations.

We have settled down a lot on the offensive end in the 2nd half. There were some first half jitters, or rather they were playing anxious.

I thought Kelly and Hairston both played solid minutes.

Andre looks to me to have become a more complete player on both ends.

[Faison1]

The Plumlee's seem to struggle with the concept of staying between their man and the basket on defense.

[superdave]

The Plumlee's seem to struggle with the concept of staying between their man and the basket on defense.

I think it's a question of discipline - they gamble too much to make the home run play, but need to lock their man down, help a lot, rotate well, etc.

[Faison1]

The second team looks pretty good

[Cockabeau]

I think it's a question of discipline - they gamble too much to make the home run play, but need to lock their man down, help a lot, rotate well, etc.

'cept they both have been doin it for along time now....

[Oriole Way]

What is Cal's realtionship to the Program? It seems to me he shows up to games every year. Maybe I'm mistaken.

I think he just appreciates great basketball, being a serious basketball player/fan himself. Although I wouldn't be surprised if Cal has a more formal connection with K or the program. He's very big on connections and business relationships.

[Gthoma2a]

I have a feeling that the perma-grin that is on my face right now is not going anywhere anytime soon. We look great! Andre looks to have grown up, Mason is doing pretty well (a few mistakes, but eh, it is early). Hairston looks like he could find a place in the rotation with his reliable D, but so could Kelly. Nolan looks incredible. Kyle is the leader, but even with him out, we look good. Seth calmed midway during the game. We have a very good team, though. Anyone else thinking we did well?

Kong, I think that once we calmed down, we played fast, and well, with all lineups.