If you have wins vacated... [Archive]

Lord Ash

11-07-2010, 12:18 PM

Okay, I wanted to ask...

Let's say a coach makes the Final Four, but for some reason (maybe directly related to the coach, maybe indirectly related to him as punishment for something regarding his players or program that he had little to no real control over) his Final Four appearance gets vacated.

Do you still consider him having gone to the Final Four when you discuss him? I know officially he may not be considered a Final Four coach, but when it comes to a conversation of "Coach X knows what it takes to get to the Final Four, he has been there before" do you agree?

Just curious!

moonpie23

11-07-2010, 12:20 PM

i don't think so..

if i cheat in all my math classes, but get caught and my grades are erased......

am i an engineer?

CameronBornAndBred

11-07-2010, 12:22 PM

i don't think so..

if i cheat in all my math classes, but get caught and my grades are erased......

am i an engineer?
You can take away the victory (or defeat), but you can never take away the valuable experience.

Duvall

11-07-2010, 12:32 PM

Do you still consider him having gone to the Final Four when you discuss him? I know officially he may not be considered a Final Four coach, but when it comes to a conversation of "Coach X knows what it takes to get to the Final Four, he has been there before" do you agree?

Well - doesn't he? I mean, in your hypothetical, the coach has gone through all the steps involved in taking a team to the Final Four. How could you say that he doesn't have the experience?

Jderf

11-07-2010, 12:37 PM

i don't think so..

if i cheat in all my math classes, but get caught and my grades are erased......

am i an engineer?

The problem is that, in order to parallel this particular thought experiment, the cheater actually did the math on the exam (only he had a brain implant or something random to make him smarter). Despite the fact that he did it illicitly, he would still have texperienced the pressure of being in the exam. No less a cheater, though.

Kedsy

11-07-2010, 01:22 PM

I don't know why DBR seems to be so focused on Calipari (and I may be wrong but, to me, this question seems to be a dig at Cal), who of course is not the only coach to have Final Four appearances vacated.

As a different sort of example, take Jack Kraft at Villanova, who made the championship game in 1971, only to find out his star player had signed a professional contract with an ABA team during the 1971 season. I don't know anybody who thinks Kraft and Villanova didn't go to the Final Four that year.

Assuming Kraft didn't know about the contract, he didn't even cheat. The math class analogy would be more along the lines that someone posted the answers to the final exam in the library, and even though you (the student) didn't know about it, the university voided everyone's grades in the class because they couldn't tell who had access to the answers in advance, so your "A" got thrown away. Technically you haven't passed the class, but if someone says, "hey, that Moonpie, he aced that high level number theory class -- he really knows his math," wouldn't they be right?

Newton_14

11-07-2010, 01:26 PM

You can take away the victory (or defeat), but you can never take away the valuable experience.

What he said. We all saw Reggie Bush win the Heisman and USC win the title, and you cannot "un-live" that. Officially, the wins get erased from the record which is fine I guess, and I would imagine Calimari's "official" record will not show the 2 Final Fours. Thankfully in his case, his teams did not win the title, so only the appearance get's vacated.

Just sort of a weird penalty, and one of those things where there really isn't a good way to punish the offender.

DevilHorns

11-07-2010, 03:16 PM

I don't know why DBR seems to be so focused on Calipari (and I may be wrong but, to me, this question seems to be a dig at Cal), who of course is not the only coach to have Final Four appearances vacated.

That's what I first thought as well.

But think about the in-game media coverage of Cal. Anytime a UK game is on the announcers talk about how Cal was a few points away from winning a championship, about how he's had final four experience at two programs, and how he's at 5 or 6 30-win seasons in a row (a record for head coaches as they claim). That, as we all know, is all half truths. The NCAA does not acknowledge those final fours, but you rarely hear about that during in-game praise. I know they have to cater to the UK fanbase that's watching the game so that won't change.

Duke: A Dynasty

11-07-2010, 03:43 PM

I say yes it still counts. It does not matter if you get wins vacated or not you were still there and still played.

Indoor66

11-07-2010, 03:53 PM

Obviously you cannot delete the experience. It happened.

That said, when I look at Villanova or Memphis or USC or other schools with NCAA vacated games, I do not credit the school with the final four or championship. The governing body of the sport does not recognize the wins, why should I? IMO, the TV commentators, as well, should place an asterisk with their commentary when talking about those vacated events.

juise

11-08-2010, 01:46 AM

Is Reggie Bush a member of the Heisman fraternity? In my mind, he was a member, but is no longer. Was he the most outstanding player during the 2005 regular season? I think so, but the fact is that he wasn't eligible to play.

loran16

11-08-2010, 02:15 AM

First of all, it takes a lot of actual coaching talent to get to the F4, even with great recruits. Calipari, the obvious target to this question, tends to have his team always as a great defensive presence EVERY YEAR (Seriously check the Kenpom defensive ratings the last 5 years).

So in terms of coaching ability it clearly means something, and should count for something.

Of course, the question is also whether such incidents are accidental and not his fault or are his fault. If a coach has repeated incidents of this nature disqualifying final fours, this also should be mentioned.

So in short: Yes, it should be taken into account for coaching skill and thus should mention it when you discuss that coach. However, you should add the caveat of the season not officially counting, particularly if it's not the first occurrence of this nature.

brevity

11-08-2010, 04:57 AM

After my vote it's 21-18. I'm really surprised it's that close.

Maybe it helps to look at it from the perspective of someone who was on the team but had nothing to do with the controversy. Player, trainer, assistant coach. They were victorious at the Regional Final, and they got to experience San Antonio or Indianapolis or wherever. Nothing about that deserves an asterisk.

I do agree that commentators should be more guarded in their praise of Coach Calipari. Much of that Kansas-Memphis final is worth revisiting: time management, matchups, fouling strategy. So it's not off-limits. But it is heavily weighed down by the NCAA's later revisionism, which adds to the conversation rather than negating it.

moonpie23

11-08-2010, 08:27 AM

Jderf

11-08-2010, 08:53 AM

ok...wait....
does he GET to the final four without camby or rose?
maybe i can pass the calculus test with my own knowledge, but my cheat sheets (which i should not even HAVE) sure help.....
maybe a lessor coach, a coach that is NOT a final four level coach beCOMES a FF level coach with players that shouldn't be on the team....

Yes, BUT: Read the original question again. We're NOT asking whether or not the hypothetical coach (which is obviously Calipari) got to the FF fairly. He didn't. That assumption is part of the conjectured situation. We're asking whether the experience of playing in the final four still gives the coach the ability to say, "I've been there. I've felt the pressure. I know what it takes to get through it."

IF that's what we're asking, then, unfortunately, we have to say the answer is yes. You're right when you say he would not have had those players if he had not cheated. But that doesn't change the fact that he DID have those players. He DID go to the final four. He DOES have the experience. I'm as uncomfortable with the answer as everyone else, but facts are facts.

Chitowndevil

11-08-2010, 09:15 AM

No way.

To my knowledge, the kids don't get rings or any kind of official acknowledgement from the NCAA regarding their accomplishments. In Memphis's case this is particularly galling, as that group of seniors was to be acknowledged in the record books as having the most wins in college bball history. I doubt those kids even got to come back for a ceremony honoring their season and careers.

The school cannot display a banner, and forfeits all funds earned from their performance in the tournament.

So why, if the players and school don't receive credit for the accomplishment, are we acknowledging Calipari as a "Final Four coach"? This doesn't mean I agree with the NCAA's system- I don't. But I don't think it's right that we strip accolades from the players and schools and still credit the coach.

camion

11-08-2010, 09:24 AM

The coach always will say he's been to the final four, and I think that's true in conversation. It should not go on his official resume though and the school won't be hanging a banner. Unless maybe it's banner proclaiming a "Perfect Season" a la UNC.

mkirsh

11-08-2010, 09:41 AM

We're asking whether the experience of playing in the final four still gives the coach the ability to say, "I've been there. I've felt the pressure. I know what it takes to get through it."

The problem with this is that he knows how to get there with illegal players, he doesn't know how to get there on his own. If he had 1 of 2 FF appearances vacated I would be with you, but ofer without cheating isn't true FF experience. I guess he could say "I know what it's like to be there", but I don't think his FF experience gives him more credibility than a coach that has never been.

PADukeMom

11-08-2010, 09:51 AM

Jderf

11-08-2010, 10:33 AM

Would you still consider Reggie Bush to have won the Heisman? To me it's like a bank made an error & instead of reading my depsoit as $1,000 instead I was credited with $1,000,000. The bank then realized the error & took the $1million away. Technically I was a millionare but then it was removed so therefore if it doesn't exist, it didn't happen.
I don't know really...to early on a Monday morning!

GTHCGTH!

Yes. I agree wholeheartedly. Reggie did not win the Heisman; he cheated. But that isn't the question. We're not talking about accolades, we're talking about his experience. If I was a Heisman candidate and wanted advice on how to handle the pressure or how to maximize my training, I wouldn't hesitate to ask him.

Kedsy

11-08-2010, 10:43 AM

ok...wait....

does he GET to the final four without camby or rose?

Well, first of all, I'm pretty sure the Camby problems happened after he was enrolled. It was not a recruiting violation. Second, what does it matter? The question was if you're talking about the coach, would the statement: "Coach X knows what it takes to get to the Final Four, he has been there before" be accurate, and the answer is clearly yes.

Jderf

11-08-2010, 10:43 AM

The problem with this is that he knows how to get there with illegal players, he doesn't know how to get there on his own. If he had 1 of 2 FF appearances vacated I would be with you, but ofer without cheating isn't true FF experience. I guess he could say "I know what it's like to be there", but I don't think his FF experience gives him more credibility than a coach that has never been.

I feel like that is trying a little too hard to avoid giving the coach credit where it's due -- solely for the purpose of holding the moral high ground. I think that this particular rhetorical move is unnecessary. We can still grant the "hypothetical" coach the fact that he has actually coached in a final four game, without necessarily ceding the fact that he cheated. Yes, he was physically there. Yes, he knows what it feels like and has the experience. But I can still agree with you that this fact doesn't change the reality: he cheated to get there and deserves zero accolades.

[I will stop hijacking this thread now :)]

moonpie23

11-08-2010, 11:06 AM

ok....i see what you guys are saying...

all i'm saying is, if you take rose and camby away, does he still make the final 4?

if you think he doesn't then the cheating DOES make a difference...

mkirsh

11-08-2010, 12:30 PM

I feel like that is trying a little too hard to avoid giving the coach credit where it's due -- solely for the purpose of holding the moral high ground. I think that this particular rhetorical move is unnecessary. We can still grant the "hypothetical" coach the fact that he has actually coached in a final four game, without necessarily ceding the fact that he cheated. Yes, he was physically there. Yes, he knows what it feels like and has the experience. But I can still agree with you that this fact doesn't change the reality: he cheated to get there and deserves zero accolades.

[I will stop hijacking this thread now :)]

I agree that he has experience coaching in a final four, but my main argument is that his experience isn't relevant since he only got there because of players he shouldn't have had, and if he is relying on eperience to help him get there again it isn't really applicable. I guess what I'm saying is that Calipari getting to the FF the way he did doesn't make him a more competent/prepared/better coach than someone like Johnny Dawkins or Jeff Capel or Matt Painter or Jamie Dixon, etc, etc who have not been to a FF.

To use another (probably bad) analogy, if I played in the Masters and broke par but did it from the ladies' tees (if they even have them there), I don't think I would be able to say "I know what it is like to break par in a major", because I only did it with an advantage that i would not likely have the next time.

PADukeMom

11-08-2010, 02:31 PM

ok....i see what you guys are saying...

all i'm saying is, if you take rose and camby away, does he still make the final 4?

if you think he doesn't then the cheating DOES make a difference...

My gut would say no but it is difficult to say since it never happened that way. Who is it to say other players would not have stepped-up their game with the absence of Rose & Camby.
Remember back in 2001 when Boozer got injured right before the Carolina game; Casey & Nate stepped-up their game & we came away with the NC.
I don't know...geeze...you are making me think too much for a Monday!

BleedsP287

11-08-2010, 07:06 PM

I voted yes, but I think for any conversation about school achievements or records it is clearly NO. The only way it makes a yes is the question was tailored towards the experience gained from being there. I don't believe life experience can be vacated, the coaches and players still learned lessons and gained experience and perspective that may help them in the future. But they don't get to refer to the experience, brag, or champion their accomplishments in any way because they were never officially there.