Student Attendance at Football/Tailgate canceled

[loran16]

I'm starting a new thread on this, as this is still in the post-game thread and I feel this is a different subject from that as in the Crusties in Cameron thread.

Ozzie and lot of others here have repeatedly gotten annoyed about Duke Student Attendance. Why is it so low, even with Cut here? Some Promise? Heck, reportedly even a player today made a tweet about students being the worst fans.
======

As I've said in the post-game thread, to me the problem is what is the Duke Campus Culture. In other (football) schools, the football games are part of the culture. People will go regardless of how the team is doing because well, it's the thing for students to do.

At Duke, it's not. Basketball is part of campus culture: Duke students go to BBall Games because it's the thing to do. This is also why tenting is so big...for example, there are always at least a few tents every year of people who aren't even big bball fans...who may in fact have their first (and only) home game they attended that year be the UNC Game (and yes that drives me nuts). It doesn't matter if the season is terrible, attendance will at least be reasonably good (though I recall attendance clearly being down to like 80% during the 06-07 season. So winning DOES have an effect on these things).

Similarly, Tailgate is part of campus culture for whatever reason. Thus kids go out to get drunk and go crazy in the morning because it's the thing to do, it's expected, and is a cultural norm. (Mind you, a LOT of students don't go to tailgate, so lets not overestimate this effect.)

Football is not, and that's because of how the team has been. From 2000-2007, the team won 10 out of 82 games, with 3 seasons without any wins, and many of those wins coming against 1-AA (FCS) competition. The impression of Duke Football is that it's a losing program, a curiosity on campus that resides right next to Cameron. I went with my parents on parents weekend to a game in which i recall a close game (against Clemson?) through the first half...until the opposing team scored 16 points on a quick TD, Safety, and TD. And then my parents, and most fans, wanted to leave. Why stay through such a dismal experience?

I'll admit this affected me as well: I kept track of how Duke Football did, but I didn't go to games very often through my Frosh and Sophomore seasons (05-06 and 06-07). I actively attempted to go to games when Cut came. And in fact, attendance has clearly improved under Cut.

But the impression on Campus is STILL THE SAME: Duke Football is STILL A LOSING PROGRAM to most students, so WHY GO? And when a team starts by going 1-6, it only reinforces this impression, and students really would rather come home from tailgate to get ready to study rather than go to games (Or many other students, like myself Frosh and Soph years, preferred to sleep late).

What happened with basketball was that winning occurred, which bred fans and traditions. The traditions became part of the Duke Student Culture, and thus even not-big bball fans wanted to go to games and Tent, because it was the thing to do.

In football, losing has occurred, so the fans aren't there, and the football traditions haven't grown. The social norms of Duke students are to NOT go to football games because it's a waste of time. That'll only change by year in and year out winning seasons (aka bowls). And it will take time.

On a side note: Duke is a private school. This should be a minor point, but it's own undergraduate class could not fill up 1/5 of Wally Wade. So there's also the problem that people need to buy seats (they did this year) and come to sit in them and root on Duke. This is a community problem, and will be solved by winning. But it's probably besides the point.

Anyhow, that's my thoughts. Lets keep the duke student attendance talk here rather than in any other threads, please?

Mind you for those of you posting in this thread, please keep out Ad Hominum attacks on other posters and students/non-students. Keep talk about "Daddy's Little Butler" to yourself."

[uh_no]

In football, losing has occurred, so the fans aren't there, and the football traditions haven't grown. The social norms of Duke students are to NOT go to football games because it's a waste of time. That'll only change by year in and year out winning seasons (aka bowls). And it will take time.

That's pretty much all one can say.

know I often feel like i have better things to do, but usually go anyway.....(except today http://midatl.radford.edu/docs/scoreboard/full.html was a pretty good reason to not be there) but I fully understand students who don't go because they have other ways they'd rather spend their time, and don't try to tell them what should be important to them or why they should dedicate 4 hours of their Saturday to a certain arbitrary event

[Duvall]

Funny how this thread is the opposite of the Cameron Crusties thread, with the exception being this: whatever you want to say about the Crusties in Cameron, at least they show up.


Well, most of them. Sometimes. Part of the time. If it's a big game. They eventually get there, for part of the first half and most of the second half. Usually.

Actually, a bigger difference is that one group has seats that can be sold in a robust secondary market, and the other doesn't.

[alteran]

Funny how this thread is the opposite of the Cameron Crusties thread, with the exception being this: whatever you want to say about the Crusties in Cameron, at least they show up.

The quasi-Halloween "tailgate" parties which I pass by on the way to the games on Saturdays sure seem well-attended, BTW. That seems doubly insulting to the football team. I just can't help thinking that they are counter-productive to students going to the games.

Yeah, yeah I know it's "tradition, but so was throwing virgins into volcanos a long time ago. Somehow culture got past that, too. ;)

BTW, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here, I'm just talking about how it looks.

[alteran]

Well, most of them. Sometimes. Part of the time. If it's a big game. They eventually get there, for part of the first half and most of the second half. Usually.

Actually, a bigger difference is that one group has seats that can be sold in a robust secondary market, and the other doesn't.

A fair point. What's funny to me is how members of both groups are copping the same 'tude about the other in both threads.

[loran16]

Yeah, yeah I know it's "tradition, but so was throwing virgins into volcanos a long time ago. Somehow culture got past that, too. ;)



You know how culture got past that? Slowly.

Same thing with Football. Get to a bowl, build a few winning seasons, and we'll get past that. (Though i'm not convinced tailgate and football can't co-exist.)

[6th Man]

I really wish there was a way to change the culture of Duke "Tailgate" to a culture of Duke "Football". The reality is that the football team needs student support. How many recruits are going to sign when they come to campus and see maybe 50 students at the football game? How many times has the spirit of Cameron probably elevated our basketball team to a win in a close game?

I'm not going to sit here and tell anybody what to do. I'm not one of the posters trying to make the student body look like spoiled brats. If there are field trips, finals, papers...do what you have to do. The only message I want to relate is the football team NEEDS student support. It makes the task of winning and recruiting 100X harder when you aren't there.

Part of the issue is that a lot of us are at different points in our lives. I am approaching 40, bring my wife and kids hoping to see a good football game. Students are out to dress as crazy as they can, get drunk and go home. I think the coaches, players, and older fans are just frustrated and the way that is relayed to the students is probably making matters even worse. The reality is, we all just want the students there. Maybe we can get the wins without student support, but it really makes it tougher.

[loran16]

I really wish there was a way to change the culture of Duke "Tailgate" to a culture of Duke "Football". The reality is that the football team needs student support. How many recruits are going to sign when they come to campus and see maybe 50 students at the football game? How many times has the spirit of Cameron probably elevated our basketball team to a win in a close game?

I'm not going to sit here and tell anybody what to do. I'm not one of the posters trying to make the student body look like spoiled brats. If there are field trips, finals, papers...do what you have to do. The only message I want to relate is the football team NEEDS student support. It makes the task of winning and recruiting 100X harder when you aren't there.

Part of the issue is that a lot of us are at different points in our lives. I am approaching 40, bring my wife and kids hoping to see a good football game. Students are out to dress as crazy as they can, get drunk and go home. I think the coaches, players, and older fans are just frustrated and the way that is relayed to the students is probably making matters even worse. The reality is, we all just want the students there. Maybe we can get the wins without student support, but it really makes it tougher.

This is the paradox isn't it? Students won't come unless we win, but if we don't get students, our ability to recruit and thus get better is slightly compromised.

It's my suspicion and hope that there's a talent level that Duke would plateau at recruiting wise, if this was our constant level of fan support.

But I don't think we're quite at it yet, and I feel that Duke can at least get to a few bowl games even with slightly compromised recruiting.

Do that, and the fan support will get stronger and thus our recruiting should get better, resulting in a far superior Duke team (also getting to a Bowl gives you exposure enough to help recruiting as well).

So yes it hurts. But I don't think it hurts enough to stop us from improving to the point where the team can't succeed well enough to fix the problem.

[BD80]

... Yeah, yeah I know it's "tradition, but so was throwing virgins into volcanos a long time ago. Somehow culture got past that, too. ;)

BTW, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here, I'm just talking about how it looks.


You know how culture got past that? Slowly. ...

They didn't get "past" it, they ran out!

[-bdbd]

Ozzie and lot of others here have repeatedly gotten annoyed about Duke Student Attendance. Why is it so low, even with Cut here? Some Promise? Heck, reportedly even a player today made a tweet about students being the worst fans.
======

As I've said in the post-game thread, to me the problem is what is the Duke Campus Culture. In other (football) schools, the football games are part of the culture. People will go regardless of how the team is doing because well, it's the thing for students to do.

At Duke, it's not. Basketball is part of campus culture: Duke students go to BBall Games because it's the thing to do. This is also why tenting is so big... Similarly, Tailgate is part of campus culture for whatever reason. Thus kids go out to get drunk and go crazy in the morning because it's the thing to do, it's expected, and is a cultural norm. ...

Football is not, and that's because of how the team has been. From 2000-2007, the team won 10 out of 82 games, with 3 seasons without any wins, and many of those wins coming against 1-AA (FCS) competition. The impression of Duke Football is that it's a losing program, a curiosity on campus that resides right next to Cameron. ...But the impression on Campus is STILL THE SAME: Duke Football is STILL A LOSING PROGRAM to most students, so WHY GO? And when a team starts by going 1-6, it only reinforces this impression, and students really would rather come home from tailgate to get ready to study rather than go to games... In football, losing has occurred, so the fans aren't there, and the football traditions haven't grown. The social norms of Duke students are to NOT go to football games because it's a waste of time. That'll only change by year in and year out winning seasons (aka bowls). And it will take time.

On a side note: Duke is a private school. This should be a minor point, but it's own undergraduate class could not fill up 1/5 of Wally Wade. So there's also the problem that people need to buy seats (they did this year) and come to sit in them and root on Duke. This is a community problem, and will be solved by winning. But it's probably besides the point.


I've thought about this over time: What can/should the school do to "fix" this trend? Or is it the school's problem to resolve at all? First, if it affects the success of Duke athletics, and the public perception, to say nothing of the quality of student life on campus, then it should be addressed. It isn't an easy riddle to solve though. Some needs for the University to attend to:
(1) Address its support and investment in the program, then eventually the quality/results will follow, and so will the students to some extent. BUT the support needs to be there consistently over time, and the team needs to remain competitive always (or almost always), with the occasional bowl appearance - prefereably to someplace fun and attractive to the students (an incentive for them to want to see the team succeed).
(2) Spend some money and energy on creating an attractive, fun environment for the students at the games. (2A) A university-funded "student tailgate party" at or next to the stadium would bring them out....everybody gets free burgers with student ID... (2B) Pull together some decent concerts or other entertainment before the game and/or at halftime.... (2C) Fireworks after every late/night game? (2D) Any number of other fun activities before, during and right after the games.
(3) Make the whole experience consistently FUN. I grew up in California, and while the football team was usually so-so, Stanford games were always considered "cool" or "hip" to attend. Part of what added to that was a very cool, irreverent Band/showe at halftimes. Stanford never had the traditional band uniforms, but rather informal get-ups/jeans/sneakers with all members wearing the crimson blazers. They had entertaining and off-color routines that were genuinely funny, and actually BROUGHT students to the games. I'd love to see Duke at least TRY this approach maybe for a couple games a year to start, and see the reaction. Note: I'll never forget the first home game the season immediately following Elway's last game, the one at rival Cal-Berkeley where Cal had the last-play, multi-lateral kick-off return for a TD to win, including romping through the erroneously-on-the-field Stanford band, and over (through?) a trombone player in the end-zone... For the first game of the next season, the title of the halftime show was "Ode to the Trombone Player" with the band forming a broken trombone on the field and playing a funeral-type dirge, before eventually having the cheerleaders wheel out a wheel-chair-bound trombone player with casts on both legs and an arm, with head bandages and faux black eye, only to have him play a warbled "trombone solo"... Other times they'd work in funny animal tricks into the band's routine, with Rex The Wonder Dog doing stunts while the band played funny-themed songs while marching around dog and trainer mid-field. Think of it as "Halftime, SNL-Style."

In the end, there are any number of ways to incent or invest in better student attendance. We haven't even discussed better conecting the team/players to the students, or getting the students out to tour thye brand new facillities (shoewing the school's investment, and their reason to believe). The "Devil Walk", I think, is a nice step in this direction.

But a lot more can still be done.

[Dukeface88]

I'm starting a new thread on this, as this is still in the post-game thread and I feel this is a different subject from that as in the Crusties in Cameron thread.

Ozzie and lot of others here have repeatedly gotten annoyed about Duke Student Attendance. Why is it so low, even with Cut here? Some Promise? Heck, reportedly even a player today made a tweet about students being the worst fans.
======

As I've said in the post-game thread, to me the problem is what is the Duke Campus Culture. In other (football) schools, the football games are part of the culture. People will go regardless of how the team is doing because well, it's the thing for students to do.

At Duke, it's not. Basketball is part of campus culture: Duke students go to BBall Games because it's the thing to do. This is also why tenting is so big...


I think we could be more proactive in transferring basketball culture to football. Is there a way to make attendance at football games (or other athletic events for that matter) one of the factors for determining tent slot? I assume there's some sort of record of whose card has been swiped, so it would mostly be a matter of publicizing it. Might not get people to stay, but it could at least get them in the stadium.

[DevilHorns]

You know how culture got past that? Slowly.

Same thing with Football. Get to a bowl, build a few winning seasons, and we'll get past that. (Though i'm not convinced tailgate and football can't co-exist.)

They can't (at least Duke's current version of tailgate).

As a freshman at Duke in 2002 I went to the football games partly because there wasn't a competing campus culture event for Saturday afternoon fun. I like football. So did a bunch of other kids on East Campus. So where do we go? We go to the game. When we were there we noticed none of the upperclassmen gave a damn, but we thought, who cares? This is fun. Let's cheer our brains out from the front row. Again, I like football. And at that point, I hadn't been subject to years of frustrations regarding Duke football (again, there was no culture of 'hey let's go to the game' we just didn't have anything else really to do as we're new on campus at this point... no push from the administration, sports dept, or anything like that).

But as I left Duke in 2006, the culture of tailgate had taken over to obscene proportions that it became the dominant Saturday afternoon event for any segment of campus culture that wanted to have fun on a Saturday. I loved Duke's version of tailgate, I'm not going to lie, but at that point, I never really thought about it in terms with competing with support for the football team.

After tailgate, a good bunch of us would still walk half drunkenly into the game afterward. But that wasn't the norm. Most kids who attend tailgate have a mission to party hard and rest up afterward, or go back to section and party on the benches or inside. Waking up at 6-7 am voluntarily to get housed pretty much guarantees not standing in the sunlight at 1 pm.

I hate to say this, but Duke's version of tailgate needs to go. Have fun, drink some beers, bbq it up, sure. But not to the extent of the tailgate being the final event.

And the administration needs to wake up. Offer some incentives. Throw out free t-shirts at games; Have the football team and coach Cut meet freshmen on East Campus in the marketplace in the fall. Do something.

[Cell-R]

Points against student turnout:
1) ZERO winning seasons since 1994. I was two years old.
2) HUGE drinking/tailgating culture that has taken the place of Football. Sadly the administration won't do anything about tailgate because of the incredible outrage that would take place if they got rid of it.
3) Believe it or not, 85% of Duke students are out-of-state (AND Duke is a schoolwork-intense university). That means a vast majority of the freshman have NEVER followed Duke sports, much less Duke Football. What incentive do they have to spend their Saturdays watching a football team that hasn't been to a bowl in decades? Believe it or not, especially freshman year, Duke takes a solid amount of adjusting in terms of time management and studying. I would say probably 1/5 of the people I know go to tailgate and the other 4/5ths spend their Saturdays catching up on lost sleep or mountains of work. I'm one of the few who make a real effort to make it to the games (actually all of them that I've been here for).

Points FOR attending games:
1) Tailgate actually sucks. For real. Unless you like swimming in beer.
2) Coach Cut is the real deal. The only problem is that most students don't know that yet.
3) Football, win or lose, is FUN. My favorite game all season (didn't attend the UVA game today sadly) was the Alabama game, just because of the atmosphere. Who cares that we lost badly? I can't ever remember Wallace Wade being that loud before.

I completely agree with all of you "Crusties" (I guess? I don't like that term haha). The turnout is absolutely pathetic and I feel TERRIBLE for the football players. Then again, I can see it from the student perspective as well. There are literally thousands of other time-consuming things that would be much more beneficial for students to participate in (like sleep, or work). I know, you'll argue that so many students are out there tailgating. Sure. That's like what, MAYBE 800 people? Out of an undergraduate population of 6000? It's definitely a problem that's probably not going to change without consistent winning record/bowl game seasons. I hate to say it, but those are the thoughts/views from a student/life-long Duke fan perspective. I grew up in NC as a Duke fan and have always supported Duke, even when UNC was winning BBall National Championships and sweeping us.

I try my best to get my friends to go to the game with me. I really think/hope this point will be moot by my senior year. We ARE going to improve. We already have. The culture will start to shift eventually. Even if it doesn't shift AWAY from tailgate, it will shift TOWARDS football - meaning that students who don't participate in either will begin coming to football games.

Just give it some time! I know it's frustrating!

[arnie]

Points against student turnout:
1) ZERO winning seasons since 1994. I was two years old.
2) HUGE drinking/tailgating culture that has taken the place of Football. Sadly the administration won't do anything about tailgate because of the incredible outrage that would take place if they got rid of it.
3) Believe it or not, 85% of Duke students are out-of-state (AND Duke is a schoolwork-intense university). That means a vast majority of the freshman have NEVER followed Duke sports, much less Duke Football. What incentive do they have to spend their Saturdays watching a football team that hasn't been to a bowl in decades? Believe it or not, especially freshman year, Duke takes a solid amount of adjusting in terms of time management and studying. I would say probably 1/5 of the people I know go to tailgate and the other 4/5ths spend their Saturdays catching up on lost sleep or mountains of work. I'm one of the few who make a real effort to make it to the games (actually all of them that I've been here for).

Points FOR attending games:
1) Tailgate actually sucks. For real. Unless you like swimming in beer.
2) Coach Cut is the real deal. The only problem is that most students don't know that yet.
3) Football, win or lose, is FUN. My favorite game all season (didn't attend the UVA game today sadly) was the Alabama game, just because of the atmosphere. Who cares that we lost badly? I can't ever remember Wallace Wade being that loud before.

I completely agree with all of you "Crusties" (I guess? I don't like that term haha). The turnout is absolutely pathetic and I feel TERRIBLE for the football players. Then again, I can see it from the student perspective as well. There are literally thousands of other time-consuming things that would be much more beneficial for students to participate in (like sleep, or work). I know, you'll argue that so many students are out there tailgating. Sure. That's like what, MAYBE 800 people? Out of an undergraduate population of 6000? It's definitely a problem that's probably not going to change without consistent winning record/bowl game seasons. I hate to say it, but those are the thoughts/views from a student/life-long Duke fan perspective. I grew up in NC as a Duke fan and have always supported Duke, even when UNC was winning BBall National Championships and sweeping us.

I try my best to get my friends to go to the game with me. I really think/hope this point will be moot by my senior year. We ARE going to improve. We already have. The culture will start to shift eventually. Even if it doesn't shift AWAY from tailgate, it will shift TOWARDS football - meaning that students who don't participate in either will begin coming to football games.

Just give it some time! I know it's frustrating!

I understand the reasons for poor student turnout - but yesterday reached a ridiculous low. The weather was chilly, but no rain during the game. The opponent was a familiar ACC opponent and we won last week. During the 1st quarter, I saw the band the cheerleaders and about 3 rows of students. Is it possible that maybe 100 students (except for those required to be at the game) showed up?? Anybody have a more accurate estimate? Anyway, I feel certain the student attendance yesterday was less than any other game in Division 1 (both FBS and whatever we call our division).

I have attended Davidson football games in the past (very small school - don't know their classification) and the student attendance was higher.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I've said most of "my piece" over in the other thread and I'm not going to repeat that here. You're welcome.

Cell-R, well said. You are a student leader, or you will be if you so desire and have the time to put into it. YOU can make change happen, and like progress on the football field, it won't happen over night. I think I will be calling Drs. Kevin White and Dick Brodhead on Monday and discussing these threads with them. If you have time, I suggest you do the same. I think we'll both get through to them - how about that!

Two years ago Duke Athletics decided to change the football pregame experience to create a big tailgating experience for fans, starting the Devil Walk and Blue Devil Alley, tailgating for us, er, Crusties :rolleyes:. It's fantastic and growing. Some tents show up at 7 a.m. and stay until hours after the game (Brunchgate and Coach Cut's Cookers). Some folks show up an hour before the game and pack up their stuff at game time never to return (what a waste). Most are somewhere in between, but the culture is growing and improving, and we all have fun. Nobody gets swankerfaced drunk and drives home, at least that I know of. The culture is growing and will be even better next year, even without an Alabama game on the schedule!

Cell-R, despite what you said, the University must and will change the student tailgate experience, not only for the football team but because of the dram shop laws. That's why there are no kegs allowed on campus. They can't tolerate the liability if a student dies from drinking on their watch... and quite honestly I'm surprised the tailgate has gone on as many years as it has. Maybe the student's death on East Campus last month will hasten its demise, although there is certainly no link between his death and the as yet still unannounced cause of death. (For those who hadn't heard, a senior was found at the bottom of a stairwell one morning after apparently falling to his death some time earlier. Had he been out drinking the night before? Perhaps off campus, from what I've heard, but nothing has been released yet, and it is not pertinent to this discussion.)

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Enough said!

[tecumseh]

Some things never change, many moons ago when I went to Duke they were lousy at football and attendance was poor. Football attendance is WAY down at a lot of high schools across the land as it is viewed as not a cool thing to do. So a lot of kids come to Duke not interested in football at all. I think there are more important things to worry about in this world....it is not going to change. I am from Western Pennsylvania and the Pirates never drew well even when they had World Series teams and one of the greatest players of all time in Clemente. It is Steeler country.

That is what I always kind of liked about the ACC it was basketball country, let the SEC have their football. College basketball is king in the ACC land.

[CameronBornAndBred]

In his post game press conference Cutcliffe both lauded the fans that were there and called out those that weren't. He said the loyal fans were there, and heard during the game. He loved the noise that we made, (which by the way is extremely audible during the game winning drive.."Let's Go Duke!" comes in over both the tv and Bob Harris' mikes beautifully). He also said it's disappointing to not see the students there, and said they missed a great football game.

[DevilWearsPrada]

In his post game press conference Cutcliffe both lauded the fans that were there and called out those that weren't. He said the loyal fans were there, and heard during the game. He loved the noise that we made, (which by the way is extremely audible during the game winning drive.."Let's Go Duke!" comes in over both the tv and Bob Harris' mikes beautifully). He also said it's disappointing to not see the students there, and said they missed a great football game.


I arrived at 9am, and of course, was there for the entire game. When I got back to my car, I listened to post game, and caught the end of interview with Sean Renfree. But when Coach Cut's interview about post game...... he was so thankful for the "LOYAL DUKE FANS" that have shown up for games, year after year, and how they are very supportive of the program. And cheering on the Blue Devils. So, Cut gave many props to Us.... Wallace Wade Crusties!!!!

Then, he called out, the Students, for not being at the game!!! Cut said, "They missed the best game, ever at Duke. And wonders why they don't come."

I don't understand, why the students didn't come to the game. The little bit of rain, has ceased by Kick off time. And it was only a drizzle. And I am sure, the students, listen to the game online.... And why wouldn't they at least show up for the 2nd half, after knowing Duke was leading and having a great game. Especially with the option of an ACC Win!!!

I was very disappointed looking over at the Student section, and basically seeing the Band! You will see the Football players girlfriends and good friends at the games, but hardly any other Students. I almost stood the entire 4th quarter. And we were dancing around and slinging the pom poms..........trying to get on the JumboTron!!!! Gee, The WW Crusties were pretty loud and REPRESENTING DUKE yesterday!!!

So cool, to see the Football players, dancing around, and in a circle celebrating that come from behind Touchdown!!! Those Kids are so deserving of everything!!!!

I hope that Coach Cut addresses the Students this week, before the BC game!!! He derserves the upmost Respect and his Staff, along with His TEAM... Our Team.

[CameronBornAndBred]

So cool, to see the Football players, dancing around, and in a circle celebrating that come from behind Touchdown!!! Those Kids are so deserving of everything!!!!

Not just after the touchdown, but they were dancing all day long! I don't remember seeing any football team show so much exuberance and have so much fun as they did yesterday..and this was a game that was never a sure win.

[dpslaw]

Any student who attends every football game from start to finish goes to the front of the line for every basketball game.

[gewwang]

I've often thought of that but the kids would just stay for the bare minimum time to get credited with football attendance, even if it meant coming for a kickoff checkpoint then returning 3 hours later for the end of game checkpoint.

When I was an undergrad at UVa in the late 80s, they used this idea to get people to go to Women's BBall. Go to the UNC/UVa women's basketball and you get a student ticket to UNC/UVa men's basketball game. You had to be there before game for a checkpoint and stay til the end of the game to show your pregame checkpoint proof and get the voucher to turn in for the men's ticket. Since WW allows re-entry, the student's would never stay for the any of the game - despite how well they are playing.

I hate the culture at Duke, kids will never give any sport the time of day unless they are contending for a National Championship. When Tennessee wanted Cut, as much as I wanted him to stay I knew that if I was him I probably would have left because it's hard to care as much about Duke as he does and to not get it back in return.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

In his post game press conference Cutcliffe both lauded the fans that were there and called out those that weren't. He said the loyal fans were there, and heard during the game. He loved the noise that we made, (which by the way is extremely audible during the game winning drive.."Let's Go Duke!" comes in over both the tv and Bob Harris' mikes beautifully). He also said it's disappointing to not see the students there, and said they missed a great football game.

It makes me wonder how long Cut is willing to put in the time and effort to make it work in a place where seemingly not enough people care. Got to be hard for him to keep his enthusiasm when so many seem to be waiting for the bandwagon to be pulled around front.

I was curious about recent historical attendance and pulled as much as I could find. Obviously not a pretty picture. You can see Cut's impact - no surprise. And of course there are many factors that influence single game attendance (see Alabama or free tickets for employees). But the trend (if there is one) seems not to be great, especially looking at the drop off this year. How much of this is students vs. us "crusties" is anyone's guess. But the student support (or lack thereof) can't be helping.

1995 - 24,757 (based on 4 of 5 home games)
1996 - 26,039
1997 - 24,176
1998 - 23,696
1999 - 17,661
2000 - 22,116
2001 - 19,391
2002 - 23,222
2003 - 20,026
2004 - 22,505
2005 - 17,486
2006 - 19,580
2007 - 20,064
2008 - 28,727
2009 - 26,314

2010 Elon - 33,941
2010 Alabama - 39,042
2010 Army - 27,289
2010 Miami - 25,911
2010 UVA - 22,741

We had a pretty miserable record while I was in school (graduated 94). I'm not going to say attendance was good but many students went to the games. Yes, we'd often had a "couple" beers beforehand. But we went. This is obviously not scientific and no way to prove this. And this is not about previous classes being better than the current one. But the support the players are getting now from fellow students seems weak - especially at a time when there is good reason to support a team on the upswing. I'm sure more creativity from the school, not to mention more winning, would help. But who needs fair weather fans.

[loran16]

I hate the culture at Duke, kids will never give any sport the time of day unless they are contending for a National Championship. When Tennessee wanted Cut, as much as I wanted him to stay I knew that if I was him I probably would have left because it's hard to care as much about Duke as he does and to not get it back in return.

I'd argue heavily against this. Duke BBall may have the reputation of a national contender, but it doesn't always deserve the status....such as in the 06-07 season. And yet even then we had at worst 80% attendance. At WORST. (In reality, i think we got closer to 95% because walk-ins in the last hour came in, but that's beside the point). Sure it helps that it's often a Nat'l Contender....but the vast majority of fans would come regardless.

BBall gets the time of day because it is TRADITION ON CAMPUS. Football is not. How does it become tradition? Well IMO, it's to get better, show that the games can be fun and not obvious losses, get people to go who will then create traditions to the point that people will start to go regardless of wins or losses.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I hate the culture at Duke, kids will never give any sport the time of day unless they are contending for a National Championship. When Tennessee wanted Cut, as much as I wanted him to stay I knew that if I was him I probably would have left because it's hard to care as much about Duke as he does and to not get it back in return.
I think for Duke to get the students involved it's going to take a shared effort by both the students and the athletic department. And when I say effort, I mean a mountain moving full blown concerted campaign by both parties. It's not too late to start now either, but in all honesty there is only one game left on the student's schedule since they will all be eating turkey leftovers during the unc game.
Student leaders need to stand up and get their classmates involved to come out and show support, and the athletic department needs to market the games as much to the students as it does to the rest of the Duke fans. I've seen billboards, gotten emails and snail mail, even received a robo-call from Coach Cut reminding me to renew tickets. If they concerted some of the same effort that they do on the outside community on the inside student population, I believe we would see results in the stands. As far as the student leaders are concerned, they need to lead by example. I don't necessarily mean the student body president, I mean those few that actually do go to the games. They need to become leaders if they aren't already, and raise their voice to their friends..get them to join the crowd in Wallace Wade.
I believe this can happen, but as I said, both the students and the administration need to take the responsibility to make it work.

[dpslaw]

I've often thought of that but the kids would just stay for the bare minimum time to get credited with football attendance, even if it meant coming for a kickoff checkpoint then returning 3 hours later for the end of game checkpoint.

When I was an undergrad at UVa in the late 80s, they used this idea to get people to go to Women's BBall. Go to the UNC/UVa women's basketball and you get a student ticket to UNC/UVa men's basketball game. You had to be there before game for a checkpoint and stay til the end of the game to show your pregame checkpoint proof and get the voucher to turn in for the men's ticket. Since WW allows re-entry, the student's would never stay for the any of the game - despite how well they are playing.

I hate the culture at Duke, kids will never give any sport the time of day unless they are contending for a National Championship. When Tennessee wanted Cut, as much as I wanted him to stay I knew that if I was him I probably would have left because it's hard to care as much about Duke as he does and to not get it back in return.

No doubt that some, and perhaps many, students would game the system, but I firmly believe that a goodly number of students would actually attend the football games. Anyway, I think it's worth a try.

[gewwang]

I'd argue heavily against this. Duke BBall may have the reputation of a national contender, but it doesn't always deserve the status....such as in the 06-07 season. And yet even then we had at worst 80% attendance. At WORST. (In reality, i think we got closer to 95% because walk-ins in the last hour came in, but that's beside the point). Sure it helps that it's often a Nat'l Contender....but the vast majority of fans would come regardless.

BBall gets the time of day because it is TRADITION ON CAMPUS. Football is not. How does it become tradition? Well IMO, it's to get better, show that the games can be fun and not obvious losses, get people to go who will then create traditions to the point that people will start to go regardless of wins or losses.

Anything less than 100% attendance at Duke basketball is a slap in Coach K's face considering what he has done for Duke, Durham, ACC, Triangle area, state of NC, USA. I was never so ashamed as I was when Coach K had to call out the Duke students for not filling up the stands in some of those non-Championship contender years.

Coach Cut and his team deserves better than looking up in the student's section prior to kickoff just to see the DUMB, cheerleaders, devil, player's friends and family and about 100 students.

[Duvall]

Any student who attends every football game from start to finish goes to the front of the line for every basketball game.

I guess if you have field work or a family emergency or, you know, Thanksgiving, you're out of luck.

[DevilHorns]

How about faculty providing an extra day for a paper or project if you prove attendance to the football game (so therefore no conflict if someone has a ton of work)?

Free t-shirts and other goodies thrown into the stands during games?

A Duke student who has their card-swiped for game entry to most/all the home games during the calendar year gets a goodie (obviously students can swipe and then leave, but I hope students would be honest about atending games).

Cut and K write a joint opinion piece in the Chronicle regarding student attendance at football games.

[El_Diablo]

I guess if you have field work or a family emergency or, you know, Thanksgiving, you're out of luck.

Or you are bumped back slightly by the 50 or so students (max) who would actually qualify. But to address your overall point (about not being too draconian), perhaps a better arrangement would be to tie specific games together. For example, everyone who attends both the Elon and Army games gets to go to the head of the line for the Princeton opener. I mean, we already reward people for other games for being seniors, or freshmen, or greeks...it would be a simple, cost-free way to provide an incentive to attend the games.

[dpslaw]

I guess if you have field work or a family emergency or, you know, Thanksgiving, you're out of luck.

Yes, if you aren't able, for whatever reason, to attend every football game, then you don't receive the privilege of being at the very front of the line for basketball games. What's wrong with that? It isn't like you would be shut out for basketball.

[gewwang]

No doubt that some, and perhaps many, students would game the system, but I firmly believe that a goodly number of students would actually attend the football games. Anyway, I think it's worth a try.

I agree, the only thing Football can use to get kids' attention on Duke's campus is to dangle better seats for Men's Basketball in front of them. I'm just discouraged that what Coach Cut is doing is almost completely going unnoticed.

[El_Diablo]

I agree, the only thing Football can use to get kids' attention on Duke's campus is to dangle better seats for Men's Basketball in front of them. I'm just discouraged that what Coach Cut is doing is almost completely going unnoticed.

Let's not kid ourselves here though...a 2-6 record would cause fan support issues at any school. Combined with the inertia of having an atrocious record over the past 15 years, there's a lot to overcome. But when we start winning more, more people will be there. Until then, if the students don't want to be there, sell some of those tickets to other fans (although judging by the empty seats throughout Wally Wade yesterday, I don't see much demand).

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I agree, the only thing Football can use to get kids' attention on Duke's campus is to dangle better seats for Men's Basketball in front of them. I'm just discouraged that what Coach Cut is doing is almost completely going unnoticed.
Coach Cutcliffe has made himself quite accessible to students. As the program moves along, there is likely to be less time available than early in the process.

Coach K has made his support clear since the first interview took place. Basketball managers and players go to the football games when their own practice doesn't interfere.

In every process of trying to get people involved, there comes a point where "the ball is in their court." I think this situation has reached the point where it's more effective to use our energies in direct support of the team rather than chewing each other out over something not within our control. That's the decision I've chosen for myself. In the meantime I've also been working at small scale networking with students whenever the opportunity arises. Out of this sort of positive contact some changes are developing.

There are two games left in this season, a season that still has the potential to be special..... not unlike the 1960 season was. I'm not suggesting that this team will go to the Cotton Bowl! I am suggesting that the end of this season may be as spectacular as the past two games. I'm going to be there and experience every minute with whomever is in the stadium.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Let's not kid ourselves here though...a 2-6 record would cause fan support issues at any school. Combined with the inertia of having an atrocious record over the past 15 years, there's a lot to overcome. But when we start winning more, more people will be there. Until then, if the students don't want to be there, sell some of those tickets to other fans (although judging by the empty seats throughout Wally Wade yesterday, I don't see much demand).
This is exactly what Eddie Cameron did to increase basketball attendance early in the Bubas years. It sent a message to us students who had paid the ole Activity Fee to cover our admission to football, basketball and various other activities. The most important outcome was the place was filled with people who wanted to see the game.

[DevilHorns]

Or you are bumped back slightly by the 50 or so students (max) who would actually qualify. But to address your overall point (about not being too draconian), perhaps a better arrangement would be to tie specific games together. For example, everyone who attends both the Elon and Army games gets to go to the head of the line for the Princeton opener. I mean, we already reward people for other games for being seniors, or freshmen, or greeks...it would be a simple, cost-free way to provide an incentive to attend the games.

Seniors on senior night, sure.

Freshmen? Greeks? How so?

[Dukeface88]

No doubt that some, and perhaps many, students would game the system, but I firmly believe that a goodly number of students would actually attend the football games. Anyway, I think it's worth a try.

Just getting people through the gate would be an improvement. Gotta crawl before you can walk, and we need to get people in before worrying about making them stay (although that's also an issue; even when we've had decent attendance to start, half the students are gone before the game ends).


I guess if you have field work or a family emergency or, you know, Thanksgiving, you're out of luck.

I'd assume the Thanksgiving game wouldn't count - I'm guessing we can all agree that's a legitimate reason not to be there. I also think you wouldn't necessarily want to do it for the entire season, as opposed to designating one basketball game or giving a one-time "go to the front" ticket.


Seniors on senior night, sure.

Freshmen? Greeks? How so?

There's been a freshman night for a couple of years, and last year a frat night (and club sports night) as well.

[El_Diablo]

Seniors on senior night, sure.

Freshmen? Greeks? How so?

Freshmen on Freshmen Night. Greeks on Greek Night. They happened last year, and they're scheduled again this year:

http://dukegroups.duke.edu/kville/theme-nights-2010-2011/

[Bluedog]

If the same number of students attended football games at Wallace Wade that attend games at Cameron (~1600) that would be a paltry 4.7% of the stadium! Will it improve the atmosphere to have rowdy students cheering? Yes. Will it make a dent in the perception that nobody goes to Duke football games if we get that number of students? Not really. 5% more in the stadium does make a significant visual difference.

About 25% of Duke undergraduates attend a given basketball game. So, while we on this site (i.e. more ardent fans), this it's the norm and culture to attend basketball games, the facts suggest the majority of students don't even attend basketball games! Can you believe that? It's true. I know MANY people who attended zero or one basketball game during their four years (the one usually being the senior game for students, not the senior game for players). In fact, I would say the mode of number of games attended in four years was 1 (mean and median obviously being higher though). I thought it was absurd as they were missing a key part of the Duke experience, but with the wide array of Duke student interests, many people have no interest in sports whatsoever and instead prefer to spend their time with heavy involvement in clubs, leadership, music, arts, studying, etc.

While I was attended every basketball game during my four years while I was on campus except for two, should I really criticize individuals who have conflicts/other interests? I feel that it's more their loss and missing a great experience. My girlfriend at the time had sorority meetings EVERY Sunday night even during basketball games. I was like, "why don't they move the meetings when there's a basketball game?" She said nobody complained strongly enough and the leadership didn't feel the need to move it...

Getting back to football...if only 25% of students attend a great experience for a top flight basketball team that competes for the national title nearly every year in a historic stadium and crowd, how could we possibly reasonably expect the same student body to heavily attend a football game for a team that hasn't had a winning season since 1994 in a stadium that is always empty and has an almost depressing atmosphere (due to the fact it's mostly empty)? Unfortunately, the only way I see students going in numbers similar to basketball games (i.e. 25%+ of the student body) is to have a winning team. And even if that's the case, we'd still need local and alumni support to have the stadium be filled.

[CameronBornAndBred]

If the same number of students attended football games at Wallace Wade that attend games at Cameron (~1600) that would be a paltry 4.7% of the stadium! Will it improve the atmosphere to have rowdy students cheering? Yes. Will it make a dent in the perception that nobody goes to Duke football games if we get that number of students? Not really. 5% more in the stadium does make a significant visual difference.

Hugely, strongly, mega-disagree. That gaping hole where the students sit is visible from everywhere in the stadium. Sit anywhere else in Wallace Wade, even on general low attendance days like yesterday, and it's glaringly obvious. Enough so that even the team, the press, and the coaches all noticed. When the students are there, it's just as obvious that they have showed up and they affect the atomosphere of the game...like they did with the Elon game.

[Acymetric]

Not just after the touchdown, but they were dancing all day long! I don't remember seeing any football team show so much exuberance and have so much fun as they did yesterday..and this was a game that was never a sure win.

I made a comment to my dad about that at the game...they were really pumped up on the sidelines. You could tell all game that they hadn't given up on the season...and the crowd definitely responded in those last couple minutes.

Wish I could be at the BC game, but I won't even be able to watch it on ESPN3. I think we have a shot though, can't wait to follow the scores on my phone!

[CameronBornAndBred]

Wish I could be at the BC game, but I won't even be able to watch it on ESPN3. I think we have a shot though, can't wait to follow the scores on my phone!
You get to watch the replay when you get home though!

[hotbutteredseoul]

There are a couple issues with the idea that "students should be around as the program is built."

First of all, it takes a LONG time (as those who preach patience on this forum always emphasize) to build a football program. Students are around for four years. People can claim that the students aren't putting in the time as an investment for when the team is good, but chances are that most individual students won't be around when other people get to reap the rewards. This may be a selfish stance, but for an 18 year old who is looking to have fun for a few years, it is the realistic one.

Second, I heard these lines (that you need to wait, to invest time now so that later we get better recruits, that you should enjoy the atmosphere of the games, etc.) back when I was a student, at the heights (or depths) of the Ted Roof era. We were on the rise, we had a coach people believed in, yada yada yada. The fact is that after 4 years, I had seen something like 6 wins. The students are (or were, since I'm old and out of touch) DEEPLY skeptical that the team will ever be anything. And I think that skepticism is justified. I felt cheated after every single game I went to as an undergrad (and I ended up going to quite a few) when we would have fewer total yards than the other team had POINTS. It's different now that we have an offense, but back then the games were NOT fun. We were always promised that we would improve in some certain areas, whatever. We never did. By the time I was a senior, I just couldn't handle it.

The point of this long rant is that it's hardly fair to criticize the students for not coming out to the games from the point of fans who will be around for a long time. The students are only there for four years. Slowly building a program in a sport that isn't particularly relevant in the area is not something that students are (or even necessarily should be) interested in.

[devil84]

I think for Duke to get the students involved it's going to take a shared effort by both the students and the athletic department. And when I say effort, I mean a mountain moving full blown concerted campaign by both parties. It's not too late to start now either, but in all honesty there is only one game left on the student's schedule since they will all be eating turkey leftovers during the unc game.

This has really made me angry for years. The game with our biggest rival -- the ONLY rival* left for Duke football -- is played WHEN THE STUDENTS ARE NOT THERE.

REALLY?!?!

If the rivalry game is scheduled such that the student section will not be there, it doesn't seem unreasonable for students to conclude that maybe their presence at games isn't really required.

For the culture to change, we need the rivalry game played when the students are there.

----
*State used to be a good rival, too, but dropped off during the 4 year period when we didn't play them AT ALL.

[gewwang]

We were on the rise, we had a coach people believed in, yada yada yada. The fact is that after 4 years, I had seen something like 6 wins. The students are (or were, since I'm old and out of touch) DEEPLY skeptical that the team will ever be anything. And I think that skepticism is justified. I felt cheated after every single game I went to as an undergrad (and I ended up going to quite a few) when we would have fewer total yards than the other team had POINTS. It's different now that we have an offense, but back then the games were NOT fun. We were always promised that we would improve in some certain areas, whatever. We never did. By the time I was a senior, I just couldn't handle it.


And Tom Butters should have listened to the Iron Dukes in 1984 instead of giving Coach K a contract extension.

[chrisheery]

You can't blame students for not going to football games when the team has a culture of losing. I hope, just like most people here, that they improve and put forth a product worth watching, but they were on a downward trend until last week when they shocked Navy. This is two big wins in a row for them, and maybe these two wins will spur some increase in attendance. There were two games where the team didn't put forth a great effort. It is hard to be angry with the fans for not showing up when the team didn't show up either. I watched the game yesterday and I would have gone if I were in Durham, but I can fully understand why a lot of people would choose to do other things.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=444427#post444427) I think for Duke to get the students involved it's going to take a shared effort by both the students and the athletic department. And when I say effort, I mean a mountain moving full blown concerted campaign by both parties. It's not too late to start now either, but in all honesty there is only one game left on the student's schedule since they will all be eating turkey leftovers during the unc game.

This has really made me angry for years. The game with our biggest rival -- the ONLY rival* left for Duke football -- is played WHEN THE STUDENTS ARE NOT THERE.

REALLY?!?!

If the rivalry game is scheduled such that the student section will not be there, it doesn't seem unreasonable for students to conclude that maybe their presence at games isn't really required.

For the culture to change, we need the rivalry game played when the students are there.

----
*State used to be a good rival, too, but dropped off during the 4 year period when we didn't play them AT ALL.
Well at least they moved the game back to the season finale' this year instead of putting it in the middle some where like they did last season. Unfortunately with the longer season and later season start date this year, the game falls after Thanksgiving, which sucks for students, not that our students really care... And I sure hope that the tailgating gods give us a later than noon start for the game on November 27th...

[flyingdutchdevil]

There are a couple issues with the idea that "students should be around as the program is built."

First of all, it takes a LONG time (as those who preach patience on this forum always emphasize) to build a football program. Students are around for four years. People can claim that the students aren't putting in the time as an investment for when the team is good, but chances are that most individual students won't be around when other people get to reap the rewards. This may be a selfish stance, but for an 18 year old who is looking to have fun for a few years, it is the realistic one.

Second, I heard these lines (that you need to wait, to invest time now so that later we get better recruits, that you should enjoy the atmosphere of the games, etc.) back when I was a student, at the heights (or depths) of the Ted Roof era. We were on the rise, we had a coach people believed in, yada yada yada. The fact is that after 4 years, I had seen something like 6 wins. The students are (or were, since I'm old and out of touch) DEEPLY skeptical that the team will ever be anything. And I think that skepticism is justified. I felt cheated after every single game I went to as an undergrad (and I ended up going to quite a few) when we would have fewer total yards than the other team had POINTS. It's different now that we have an offense, but back then the games were NOT fun. We were always promised that we would improve in some certain areas, whatever. We never did. By the time I was a senior, I just couldn't handle it.

The point of this long rant is that it's hardly fair to criticize the students for not coming out to the games from the point of fans who will be around for a long time. The students are only there for four years. Slowly building a program in a sport that isn't particularly relevant in the area is not something that students are (or even necessarily should be) interested in.

I would agree with this for the most part. There was been an incredible losing culture when it comes to Duke football. We are the Clippers of the college football world. I was at Duke from 03-07 when we probably won a total of 4-5 games. Why would we want to go to a game where there is a 90% chance of losing? You're probably going to say 'because it's your team! It's your school!' If that's the case, then why isn't attendance full for tennis? Or volleyball? Or field hockey? Or woman's lacrosse? Or virtually any sport outside of Duke basketball?

Winning and attendance are completely correlated. And Cut is getting is the right direction. The problem? Duke has been promised this before - with Roof, with Carl Franks, etc. And these coaches have failed to deliver.

Should the students go to football games? Sure! Should we hold it against them if they don't? Absolutely not. Doing so goes completely against what spectator sports stands for. Bottom line - if Duke football starts winning, students will inevitably go to games. End of story.

[loran16]

Well at least they moved the game back to the season finale' this year instead of putting it in the middle some where like they did last season. Unfortunately with the longer season and later season start date this year, the game falls after Thanksgiving, which sucks for students, not that our students really care... And I sure hope that the tailgating gods give us a later than noon start for the game on November 27th...

Ozzie, Ozzie, Ozzie, you got this wrong last year and you get it wrong this year.

Duke-UNC is the game that students, if they are on campus, WOULD GO TO! FOR SURE! Duke-UNC's Rivalry is part of the culture of campus (This is why Duke-UNC's women's bball game has decent attendance compared to the rest of the womens' games).

If you want to get students to come, you know what might spark their interest? Going to the game cuz of Duke-UNC, and coming back with a positive impression of Duke Football.

BUT NOW IT CAN"T HAPPEN! I wanted to go to Duke-UNC games....and I couldn't due to me being in NY during Thanksgiving.

If you want Duke-UNC at the end of the season, do it when it's @ UNC, whose students can easily come back from thanksgiving with their families to be back on Saturday. Don't do it when we play @Duke. (Last season's move was pointless for this reason).

[arnie]

And Tom Butters should have listened to the Iron Dukes in 1984 instead of giving Coach K a contract extension.

Bid difference, Coach K had landed the nation's best recruiting class - you may have heard of Dawkins, Alarie, Bilas and Henderson. FranksRoof had not done anything to distinquish their careers at Duke, therefore they were extinquished.

[Son of Jarhead]

Maybe this wouldn't work, but I just had a thought...

What if the University & Athletic Dept. came up with a contest where the students earn points for attending athletic events? Swipe their cards on the way in, & then on the way out if they leave before halftime or something. Maybe bonus points for football to help with the attendance/perception there, but include all sports. Figure a way to make the top prize a big one, get a sponsor or something. Mmmmmm... needs more thought.

On the "students need to attend to help the program win"/"program needs to be winning so the students will attend" debate... it's sort of a "chicken or the egg?" thing, I suppose... but somebody has to go first. Coach Cut is already working on making the program better, so some how we need to get the students to attend. If both sides of the problem are working hard to get better it will make both jobs easier.

[Highlander]

Traditions - Tailgate is a fairly new "tradition" at Duke that's been around less than a decade (It sounds like it started in earnest around 2004-05). In the last 5-6 years it's evolved from nothing to "the thing" to do on Saturday. So a "tradition" in College life could be established in 4-5 years easily, within the lifetime of one class of students. If the administration wanted tailgate gone tomorrow, they could make it disappear. Simplest justification would be to say the administration needs the parking lot for cars. I wouldn't be all that torn up if it went away personally, but I'm sure the administration is somewhat concerned about where it would go if it were no longer sanctioned. One question - why should we defend students right to tailgate before a game they aren't attending? Do we allow people to set up unregistered tents if they're not in line for the basketball games?

One idea I had - Why not just move Tailgate to be AFTER the football game? That way people would probably be more likely to go to the game and stay awhile if they were killing time until tailgate started, especially if they have to walk all the way to the stadium to to swipe their card. I don't necessarily like the idea of forced attendence, but reserving tailgate for people who actually go to the game sounds reasonably fair to me.

[gewwang]

And Tom Butters should have listened to the Iron Dukes in 1984 instead of giving Coach K a contract extension.


Bid difference, Coach K had landed the nation's best recruiting class - you may have heard of Dawkins, Alarie, Bilas and Henderson. FranksRoof had not done anything to distinquish their careers at Duke, therefore they were extinquished.

Just wanted to clarify, my earlier post was sarcastic. I'm glad Butters decided to give Coach K an extension instead of firing him in 1984.

[uh_no]

Maybe this wouldn't work, but I just had a thought...

What if the University & Athletic Dept. came up with a contest where the students earn points for attending athletic events? Swipe their cards on the way in, & then on the way out if they leave before halftime or something. Maybe bonus points for football to help with the attendance/perception there, but include all sports. Figure a way to make the top prize a big one, get a sponsor or something. Mmmmmm... needs more thought.


like

http://www.irondukes.net/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=5100&ATCLID=178270

???

[Acymetric]

like

http://www.irondukes.net/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=5100&ATCLID=178270

???

While that gives students incentive to donate early (and continue donating when they graduate) it doesn't have anything that rewards attendance unless I missed something, so no that program doesn't really fit here.

[El_Diablo]

like

http://www.irondukes.net/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=5100&ATCLID=178270

???

Yeah, but not force the students to pay money...since it is supposed to provide incentives, not disincentives.

[jimsumner]

I was at Duke from 03-07 when we probably won a total of 4-5 games. Why would we want to go to a game where there is a 90% chance of losing? You're probably going to say 'because it's your team! It's your school!' If that's the case, then why isn't attendance full for tennis? Or volleyball? Or field hockey? Or woman's lacrosse? Or virtually any sport outside of Duke basketball?

Winning and attendance are completely correlated. Should the students go to football games? Sure! Should we hold it against them if they don't? Absolutely not. Doing so goes completely against what spectator sports stands for. Bottom line - if Duke football starts winning, students will inevitably go to games. End of story.

I'm not sure I understand your logic. You say that Duke students don't go to football games because Duke likely will lose. Then you cite a number of non-revenue sports to support your thesis. All of the sports you cited are sports in which Duke is nationally competitive. So, clearly the correlation between winning and attendance seems pretty tenuous.

I'm also not sure the relevance of 2003-2007. Most current Duke students weren't in college then. Some weren't even in high school. We're told that Duke students can't be expected to invest in a long-term rebuilding project at the same time we're told that they're staying away from games because of stuff that happened when they were in middle school.

Carl Franks and Ted Roof aren't coaching at Duke now. The guy who is has gone 12-21 at Duke. I think he will improve that but I'm pretty sure that's a little better than a 90 percent chance of losing.

This goes to the point of whether Duke students "owe" the Duke football team their attention. Viewpoints clearly differ. But we are talking about six of seven Saturday afternoons a year, home games that for students don't require a substantial investment in either distance traveled or money spent. So, you can see why fans who travel from outside the Triangle decade after decade to support a program that badly needs their support might be a bit miffed.

And some alums actually take pride in a football program that is run with the highest ethical standards, has exceptional graduation rates and is becoming increasingly competitive on the field.

Could even be you.

If you would permit me a point of personal privilege. One of my pet peeves is message-board posts that end with "End of Story" or "Case Closed," or some other phrase that suggests that their logic and erudition is so profound that no one could possibly find any points of disagreement.

One final point. The players notice the lack of students. The coaches notice. In case there was any question.

[loran16]

Thanks for chipping in Jim, but a few points:




I'm also not sure the relevance of 2003-2007. Most current Duke students weren't in college then. Some weren't even in high school. We're told that Duke students can't be expected to invest in a long-term rebuilding project at the same time we're told that they're staying away from games because of stuff that happened when they were in middle school.

Carl Franks and Ted Roof aren't coaching at Duke now. The guy who is has gone 12-21 at Duke. I think he will improve that but I'm pretty sure that's a little better than a 90 percent chance of losing.


They aren't coaching NOW. But their impact (and the guys before them) on the program's support can't be understated. Returning to what Dr. RosenRosen posted earlier:


1995 - 24,757 (based on 4 of 5 home games)
1996 - 26,039
1997 - 24,176
1998 - 23,696
1999 - 17,661
2000 - 22,116
2001 - 19,391
2002 - 23,222
2003 - 20,026
2004 - 22,505
2005 - 17,486
2006 - 19,580
2007 - 20,064
2008 - 28,727
2009 - 26,314

So yes, attendance has been up under Cutcliffe in general (that trend has continued this years)...but I'd hardly say that student feeling about the program isn't affected by the reputation of the program from earlier coaches, even if the students weren't around then.

Of note: What is the student capacity of Wally Wade? I can't seem to find it anywhere. I would suspect that the capacity is at most 3000 (I know we take up 2.5 sections). 1600 is the max student capacity for Cameron, and is 1/4 of the student body. I would bet that's the maximum who would, under any event, come to games. ATM, I'd guesstimate the Student Support during the Roof era was roughly 50 students. Getting up to 1000 would be doable if the progress continues and Cut stays. But it's a long journey.




This goes to the point of whether Duke students "owe" the Duke football team their attention. Viewpoints clearly differ. But we are talking about six of seven Saturday afternoons a year, home games that for students don't require a substantial investment in either distance traveled or money spent. So, you can see why fans who travel from outside the Triangle decade after decade to support a program that badly needs their support might be a bit miffed.


I understand why they're miffed. The question of money is not an issue, but the question is of time. The average Duke student still thinks the football team is a waste of time. Attendance will go up next week due to the win at home, but that's the permanent reputation passed along to students who have only seen 1 season of true futility (Roof's 1-11 season).



And some alums actually take pride in a football program that is run with the highest ethical standards, has exceptional graduation rates and is becoming increasingly competitive on the field.

Could even be you.

If you would permit me a point of personal privilege. One of my pet peeves is message-board posts that end with "End of Story" or "Case Closed," or some other phrase that suggests that their logic and erudition is so profound that no one could possibly find any points of disagreement.

One final point. The players notice the lack of students. The coaches notice. In case there was any question.

Agreed.

[RelativeWays]

Nothing about Brett Huffman's facebook post after the game. I'm a little surprised. I wasn interested to hear what the rest of DBR thought about it.

[loran16]

Nothing about Brett Huffman's facebook post after the game. I'm a little surprised. I wasn interested to hear what the rest of DBR thought about it.

It was mentioned in the post game thread. I think that's why we're talking about the subject.

[RelativeWays]

It was mentioned in the post game thread. I think that's why we're talking about the subject.


Well that and anyone who attended the game (like me) could see the lone section where there was nobody was the student section. Well there was lime green man, but other than that....

Even the GA endzone, which is scattershot at best had way more people.

[Scorp4me]

I wrote a long post, but it said too much so I'll keep it simple. I've given up on the students. Move the tailgate some where away from the game. Welcome the students who choose the game over the tailgate. The ones who don't will no longer be missed.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Here is another thought to the "why show up when we're gonna lose" theory, which I find incredibly selfish. (Well within your rights of course, but still selfish, IMO.) As the team comes into the stadium on their Devil's Walk, they pass by a number of tents full of tailgaters, and further down by they continue on past an even larger number of fans that have just shown up to voice and show their support. I'm one of the tailgaters that they pass by on Devil's Alley. DukePA and I make the 3 hour trip from the coast, leaving either the night before or very early the day of the game. 2 others in our group come from the same distance in Virginia to watch the games. Most of the others come from shorter distances, but I'd put the average travel time right at an hour. My guess is that's the average driving time for most Duke fans in the stadium. And while the attendance is up this year, every member in our group has made it to every single Duke game that they possibly could since well before the days of Carl Franks, and I've never seen Wade completely empty..even in the worst of the worst years.
My point is that there are literally thousands of people that put lots of effort into coming to the games at a pretty significant personal cost, both monetarily and in time. And yet the Duke students, who only have to walk across the street and pay nothing, can't seem to make it. Yes, they might have a paper to do. But you know what? I've got deadlines as well, ones that if I don't meet won't result in a lessened grade but instead will get me fired. Duke students are some of the smartest kids I know; I bet you $100 that they can be pretty good with their time management skills. (Also...the "I have to write a paper" excuse is shot to hell when you still are able to make it Tailgate, drink yourself stupid, and then stumble back to your dorm room only to pass out.)

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Nothing about Brett Huffman's facebook post after the game. I'm a little surprised. I was interested to hear what the rest of DBR thought about it.


It was mentioned in the post game thread. I think that's why we're talking about the subject.
I quoted it in the other thread and that is what started this whole mess. I'm sorry he hates all Duke students, but basically he's right, when it comes to supporting THEIR football team, 90% of them are a bunch of schmucks. 2% of them don't know what football is, 2% truly don't have time, 1% thinks it's soccer and another 2% goes to all or most all the games (when they can). That leaves another 3% to get to the game on
Saturday, which would just about fill up their section!

[loran16]

I quoted it in the other thread and that is what started this whole mess. I'm sorry he hates all Duke students, but basically he's right, when it comes to supporting THEIR football team, 90% of them are a bunch of schmucks. 2% of them don't know what football is, 2% truly don't have time, 1% thinks it's soccer and another 2% goes to all or most all the games (when they can). That leaves another 3% to get to the game on
Saturday, which would just about fill up their section!

Ozzie, 3% of Duke Undergrads = roughly 160 students. I'm sure you're being facetious here, but we'd need a large # of undergrads to come to the game to fill up the student section.


Here is another thought to the "why show up when we're gonna lose" theory, which I find incredibly selfish. (Well within your rights of course, but still selfish, IMO.) As the team comes into the stadium on their Devil's Walk, they pass by a number of tents full of tailgaters, and further down by they continue on past an even larger number of fans that have just shown up to voice and show their support. I'm one of the tailgaters that they pass by on Devil's Alley. DukePA and I make the 3 hour trip from the coast, leaving either the night before or very early the day of the game. 2 others in our group come from the same distance in Virginia to watch the games. Most of the others come from shorter distances, but I'd put the average travel time right at an hour. My guess is that's the average driving time for most Duke fans in the stadium. And while the attendance is up this year, every member in our group has made it to every single Duke game that they possibly could since well before the days of Carl Franks, and I've never seen Wade completely empty..even in the worst of the worst years.
My point is that there are literally thousands of people that put lots of effort into coming to the games at a pretty significant personal cost, both monetarily and in time. And yet the Duke students, who only have to walk across the street and pay nothing, can't seem to make it. Yes, they might have a paper to do. But you know what? I've got deadlines as well, ones that if I don't meet won't result in a lessened grade but instead will get me fired. Duke students are some of the smartest kids I know; I bet you $100 that they can be pretty good with their time management skills. (Also...the "I have to write a paper" excuse is shot to hell when you still are able to make it Tailgate, drink yourself stupid, and then stumble back to your dorm room only to pass out.)

CB&B, I understand where you come from. But think of it this way. In professional sports, the fanbase support for a team consists of the core fans: those who are from the area who support the team from birth no matter what AND the Fair Weather Fans. When the teams are losing or have a losing culture, only the core exists.

But People outside of North Carolina don't start life as Duke Football fans. There is no (or basically none) out-of-state support from random fans who aren't Duke alums or have Duke family. And many of these potential students have early allegiances to their parents or local school's football teams (Lets say every student from Texas seems to be a Longhorns fan). And of course, many NC Residents are of course football fans of the other in-state programs.

THUS THERE ARE NO CORE GROUP OF DUKE FANS FROM BIRTH OF DUKE FOOTBALL, aside from a select few.

Now when the students come to Duke, they should be Duke Football fans. But these students are far more likely to be fair-weather fans, because they come INTO Duke with their own previous college football biases and don't expect when choosing Duke to be that into Duke Football. Duke BBall is a recruiting tool for the students, and they know they're buying into it when they come here. Duke Football ISN'T.

So the students are by and large fair weather fans. And thus the importance of winning. Selfish it may seem to the core group of fans (yourself) and the diehards, but that's what it is. Win and they will come. Be 2-6 and expect sparse attendance. Be 3-6 and expect slightly better attendance.

[CameronConvert]

While I agree that Duke football attendance from the students can and (IMHO) should be higher, I think it's unfair to point to the lengths certain people on this board go to to attend games (for which I commend them) as a way to denigrate the lack of student attendance. To be totally honest, for most people football's just not a blip on the radar screen. People complain about "non basketball fans" attending games at Cameron, but the atmosphere at Cameron draws student's to the games by itself, this combined with the tradition and continued excellence make student attendance at Bball games what it is. But let's assume that most people who come to Duke aren't die hard college football fans (otherwise they probably wouldn't have come to Duke) So what's gonna get student's out to the games? If you're not a football fan, sitting with a minimal group of student's cheering for a (usually) losing team is just not that appealing. Even if you are a football fan, the lack of tradition and the lack of interest from the rest of the student body might dissuade you. At schools like Vandy, all the fraternities and sororities make the football game an event; I can guarantee you Greek attendance at football (and basketball games for that matter) is horrendous. I think only a combination of winning and student-initiated drives to improve the atmosphere in Wally Wade are gonna help this.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Yes, I was being facetious, sarcastic and attempting to be funny. But the way some of you portray Duke students makes me want to puke. If they really are that way, they are schmucks.

[CameronBornAndBred]

But let's assume that most people who come to Duke aren't die hard college football fans (otherwise they probably wouldn't have come to Duke) .
Look at it this way. The students showed up well to the Elon game. They proved they can come out. After Duke had proven it can win against Navy, a small but still respectable number of paying fans made it to the game even under iffy weather conditions. Did those fans fill WW? No, of course not. But they did show up and were loud.
The students, also having proven they can show up en masse once this season, and also having seen the team can win, decided to not cross the street, and were noticeably absent. Even if they were there in the same percentage that the paying fans were versus what the same crowd of paying fans was at the Army game, there would have been more students there.
Also..think of the impact their absence can have on recruiting. When we went to VT game, VT had a special entrance for recruits, so we knew there were some at the game. They use the atmosphere of the stadium as an attraction for the recruits. I'm in no way suggesting that Duke could match that atmosphere, that ain't gonna happen. But in the same vein, I wonder if Duke even invites recruits to these later season games? My guess is they pack them in for the first one when they know the students will be there with the other fans. I think if they brought a recruit in later in the year then that gaping hole would be a drawback. And before you say "Duke sucks, of course there is a hole" think back to last year when we were rolling heading into November. That hole was still there. Duke was winning, and had a bowl bid potentially in reach. And the students still didn't cross the street.
I blame the athletic department even more than the students. As I said in a previous post, they put a lot of time and effort to get people to pay for the games, if they would put some of that effort into selling the students to come to the games for free, I guarantee you it would happen. Hell, what they outta do is go approach the Fuqua School or a marketing class with an awesome project. The project would be for them to poll their classmates, find out why they really aren't going, find out what would draw them in, and then build a campaign around the results. There would be more students in the seats if they do it well, and being Duke students I'm sure they would do it well.

[B-well]

Back in the 80's, we used to sit down hear the field. Unfortunately, I can't make that climb up or down anymore.

The "Let's Go Duke" in the 4th Quarter was unbelievably good - it was coming from both sides of the field - and it seemd to be coming from a lot of fans who only dream of yelling that cheer in Cameron.

The band (great in Cameron, not so great in Wade) sat like a bunch of martyrs in the middle of the student section - while the Hoo band was really involved. I suspect they would rather have been some place else - rather than sitting in the cold and wet stands in those gawd-awful band suits the founding fathers designed.

Maybe the students should be banned from the games - the team did a hell of a lot better without them there.

[uh_no]

While that gives students incentive to donate early (and continue donating when they graduate) it doesn't have anything that rewards attendance unless I missed something, so no that program doesn't really fit here.

you pay like 40 bucks at the beginning of the year, and then you swipe in a certain specific games throughout the year, many football games and women's basketball...almost any contest against UNC....and then you get rewards for attendance....from sweat pants and hoodies to hats and other swag.....so it is very similar to the program described which incentivizes attendance....except you have to pay at the beginning

here is the list of events which earn you points

https://admin.xosn.com/ViewArticle.dbml?&DB_OEM_ID=5100&ATCLID=274994

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

The team's not winning... I have a paper to write... It's boring... Football is not our culture... We never cared about football before we got here... We're a small private school... blah blah blah.

With so many excuses, I got to thinking about Wake Forest. Let's take a closer look. Small private school with 4500 undergrads. 75% of students come from outside NC. Their football stadium seats 31,500. Going into this past weekend, they had a miserable record of 2-6. Attendance at their home game against BC on Saturday...... 29,465. They've essentially filled their stadium for every home game so far this year. Clearly they are benefiting from strong support beyond the student body. But the students are doing their part.

As much as I cannot stand those screamin deamon tie dye shirts, maybe we should take a look down I-40 and see what the administration and students are doing over there. The administration has put together an interesting incentive program - not unlike some of the ideas presented in this thread. More importantly, the student body is showing up to support their team - despite a losing football season and despite the students having the same exact pressure to perform in the classroom, etc.

The "it's my right to be selfish" argument doesn't cut it for me. I'm sure there's much more that can be done on several fronts. But the Duke student body's general level of caring and participation is at this point nothing short of shameful. :mad:

[Duvall]

With so many excuses, I got to thinking about Wake Forest. Let's take a closer look. Small private school with 4500 undergrads. 75% of students come from outside NC. Their football stadium seats 31,500. Going into this past weekend, they had a miserable record of 2-6. Attendance at their home game against BC on Saturday...... 29,465. They've essentially filled their stadium for every home game so far this year. Clearly they are benefiting from strong support beyond the student body. But the students are doing their part.

As much as I cannot stand those screamin deamon tie dye shirts, maybe we should take a look down I-40 and see what the administration and students are doing over there.

Packing up the campus and moving to a larger MSA without two other FBS schools? Seems like kind of an extreme solution.

Wake has two major advantages in boosting attendance that Duke doesn't - a medium-sized metropolitan area all to themselves, and three bowl appearances in the last five years. The first can't be changed, the second can.

[phaedrus]

The team's not winning... I have a paper to write... It's boring... Football is not our culture... We never cared about football before we got here... We're a small private school... blah blah blah.


Why do you suppose that any student - anywhere, ever - needs an excuse NOT to go to a football game? This is a really bizarre proposition.

[loran16]

The team's not winning... I have a paper to write... It's boring... Football is not our culture... We never cared about football before we got here... We're a small private school... blah blah blah.

With so many excuses, I got to thinking about Wake Forest. Let's take a closer look. Small private school with 4500 undergrads. 75% of students come from outside NC. Their football stadium seats 31,500. Going into this past weekend, they had a miserable record of 2-6. Attendance at their home game against BC on Saturday...... 29,465. They've essentially filled their stadium for every home game so far this year. Clearly they are benefiting from strong support beyond the student body. But the students are doing their part.



Oh yes, and it's not like Wake is just 2 years removed from going to 3 consecutive bowl games, INCLUDING THE FREAKING ORANGE BOWL.

What was Wake's attendance in 2005 and 2006?

EDIT: Okay Not Terrible. I'd point out though that Wake does not have the basketball reputation of Duke or its traditions (seriously, they're downright quiet during games, it's depressing), despite having Tim Duncan or Chris Paul.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Why do you suppose that any student - anywhere, ever - needs an excuse NOT to go to a football game? This is a really bizarre proposition.

Not sure what you mean by bizarre proposition. I was commenting on the excuses that have been given for years and in particular within this very thread.

Do the students have a choice? Of course. Do they need an excuse not to go to a game. Of course not. (Though I find it interesting that many excuses are given.) Does that change the fact that their general level of support for the team is pretty sad? I don't think so.

[Son of Jarhead]

like

http://www.irondukes.net/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=5100&ATCLID=178270

???

Ok, sorry... didn't know about that. Thanks for pointing it out to me. As others have stated, I don't think the $40 dollars helps, but otherwise seems close to what I was thinking. The idea I had was a little different, though. I believe they should think bigger. When I suggested finding a sponsor, I meant for something bigger, like a trip, not for hoodies & such, which are nice, but the students can buy a hoodie & a hat at the the University Stores for that same $40. I'm thinking along the lines that the top point getter goes to some exotic place oeverseas or something & the hoodies & such are the consolation prizes. Everybody gets something, just as they have it now, but the really dedicated would get something much nicer. Perhaps they already have bigger "top" prizes. Looked around the site you linked & could not find any, but obviously I've missed the boat on the Inferno once, so I'll apologize in advance if I missed it again. ... Let's Go Duke!!!!

[kingboozer]

Let's see what happens the season after Cut takes us to a bowl (WHEN not if!) if student involvement is an issue then, then there's a serious problem.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

What was Wake's attendance in 2005 and 2006?


Well, since you asked, and I assume you meant 2004 and 2005 - prior to their recent run of bowl games... in 2004 it was 30,762 and in 2005 it was 28,924.

I did not offer up wake forest as the solution but merely as proof that other small private schools without a glorious multi-decade football tradition have had success filling the seats - and more importantly that the students continue to show up even when times aren't so good despite having lots of hard work to do, despite not being locals, despite probably never having cheered for WFU football before they got there...

[uh_no]

Well, since you asked, and I assume you meant 2004 and 2005 - prior to their recent run of bowl games... in 2004 it was 30,762 and in 2005 it was 28,924.

I did not offer up wake forest as the solution but merely as proof that other small private schools without a glorious multi-decade football tradition have had success filling the seats - and more importantly that the students continue to show up even when times aren't so good despite having lots of hard work to do, despite not being locals, despite probably never having cheered for WFU football before they got there...

I'm sure when we've had 2-3 bowl games under our belts, students will take the rough patches better here also

[flyingdutchdevil]

I'm not sure I understand your logic. You say that Duke students don't go to football games because Duke likely will lose. Then you cite a number of non-revenue sports to support your thesis. All of the sports you cited are sports in which Duke is nationally competitive. So, clearly the correlation between winning and attendance seems pretty tenuous.

I'm also not sure the relevance of 2003-2007. Most current Duke students weren't in college then. Some weren't even in high school. We're told that Duke students can't be expected to invest in a long-term rebuilding project at the same time we're told that they're staying away from games because of stuff that happened when they were in middle school.

Carl Franks and Ted Roof aren't coaching at Duke now. The guy who is has gone 12-21 at Duke. I think he will improve that but I'm pretty sure that's a little better than a 90 percent chance of losing.

This goes to the point of whether Duke students "owe" the Duke football team their attention. Viewpoints clearly differ. But we are talking about six of seven Saturday afternoons a year, home games that for students don't require a substantial investment in either distance traveled or money spent. So, you can see why fans who travel from outside the Triangle decade after decade to support a program that badly needs their support might be a bit miffed.

And some alums actually take pride in a football program that is run with the highest ethical standards, has exceptional graduation rates and is becoming increasingly competitive on the field.

Could even be you.

If you would permit me a point of personal privilege. One of my pet peeves is message-board posts that end with "End of Story" or "Case Closed," or some other phrase that suggests that their logic and erudition is so profound that no one could possibly find any points of disagreement.

One final point. The players notice the lack of students. The coaches notice. In case there was any question.

My point with the non-revenue sports and lack of attendance to those sports is that many here have made the case that students should just go to football games and support the team because they are your fellow Duke peers and you should support them. I completely disagree with this notion. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of events, including sports, theater productions, and seminars, that do not have high attendance rates. Students should go to games because they are compelled to. They should never, NEVER, go to a game because someone is complaining about attendance (for the record, I never liked Coach K complaining about the lack of Cameron Crazies. We're smart kids with a lot of motivation; we'll go to games without someone having to push us.

Your point about 2003-2007 is accurate - the current students weren't in college during those years. However, do you not agree that a culture, whether one of winning or losing, passes on through the years? That mentality sticks. That's why when Duke goes 22-10 in a season, which is great for most programs, the students complain and attendance drops. It will take time to get a winning culture back. Under Cut, I suspect that it will. However, expecting attendance to increase in the flick of a switch is unreasonable.

My journey at Duke was typical for a student at that time. When I was a freshman, I attended around 4-5 home games (I found this to be an incredible feat as, an international student who loves the real football, I don't like football at all. I'd rather watch 4 hours of curling than 1 football game). As a sophomore, I attended one game and a few tailgate sessions. As a junior? Only went to tailgate and not the games. As a senior, I attended a few tailgate sessions (they get mundane after a while). I primarily didn't go to games because I didn't like football. However, a lot of my friends had packed schedules. This meant a full study schedule, a work schedule, extra-curricular activities, and the seldom party. Tailgate always provided that party. Duke students believe in the 'work hard, play hard' motto; tailgate delivered on the second half of that. There just wasn't an interest to invest a couple of hours watching a game when the students couldn't name our starting QB.

I really appreciate our life-long fans, especially for football. I think they represent our university beautifully. But, as I said before, they cannot force, nor should they, students to attend games. This decision MUST come from the students and the students alone. That is how Duke football will be able to build up a steady following.

Lastly, you're right about my 'End of story'. That was both immature and uncalled for. I will not be using that again in the future.

[devildeac]

The team's not winning... I have a paper to write... It's boring... Football is not our culture... We never cared about football before we got here... We're a small private school... blah blah blah.

With so many excuses, I got to thinking about Wake Forest. Let's take a closer look. Small private school with 4500 undergrads. 75% of students come from outside NC. Their football stadium seats 31,500. Going into this past weekend, they had a miserable record of 2-6. Attendance at their home game against BC on Saturday...... 29,465. They've essentially filled their stadium for every home game so far this year. Clearly they are benefiting from strong support beyond the student body. But the students are doing their part.

As much as I cannot stand those screamin deamon tie dye shirts, maybe we should take a look down I-40 and see what the administration and students are doing over there. The administration has put together an interesting incentive program - not unlike some of the ideas presented in this thread. More importantly, the student body is showing up to support their team - despite a losing football season and despite the students having the same exact pressure to perform in the classroom, etc.

The "it's my right to be selfish" argument doesn't cut it for me. I'm sure there's much more that can be done on several fronts. But the Duke student body's general level of caring and participation is at this point nothing short of shameful. :mad:

Plus the fact that BB&T field is not even on campus so they have a short "commute" to their games.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Plus the fact that BB&T field is not even on campus so they have a short "commute" to their games.
What's funny to me is before Wake was brought up as an example, I was thinking the same thing as was curious, knowing they are doing even worse than we are now so I went to one of their boards looking for any insight on attendance. There were some complaints about lack of people in the stands, but none about lack of students. There were also more than a few calling for Grobe to be fired. http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/21.gif (http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/posting.php?mode=post&f=3#)

[OZZIE4DUKE]

as an international student who loves the real football
Ah! You're one of the 1% I mentioned who thinks we're talking about soccer! http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/3.gif OK, just kidding.

But you're right, not everyone likes football nor should they be expected to, regardless of nationality. Not everyone has the time to go to football games. But out of 6,000 Duke undergrads and 4,000 Duke grad students and their S.O.'s, whether they grew up near Durham, in this state, this country, this hemisphere or around the globe, 4 to 6 hours on a Saturday for a fun outing in a beautiful setting with family and friends can be fit into most schedules for a couple of thousand of them a half dozen fall weekends a year when they can be scheduled in advance and even looked forward to with anticipation. And the outing should be scheduled at Duke games instead of going to carolina or NC State because it is their school. They have a rooting interest, regardless of how small or inconsequential it is in that person's mind, and that makes it more fun, win or lose. The emotional investment that brings you back year after year after year after year after.....

[flyingdutchdevil]

Ah! You're one of the 1% I mentioned who thinks we're talking about soccer! http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/3.gif OK, just kidding.

But you're right, not everyone likes football nor should they be expected to, regardless of nationality. Not everyone has the time to go to football games. But out of 6,000 Duke undergrads and 4,000 Duke grad students and their S.O.'s, whether they grew up near Durham, in this state, this country, this hemisphere or around the globe, 4 to 6 hours on a Saturday for a fun outing in a beautiful setting with family and friends can be fit into most schedules for a couple of thousand of them a half dozen fall weekends a year when they can be scheduled in advance and even looked forward to with anticipation. And the outing should be scheduled at Duke games instead of going to carolina or NC State because it is their school. They have a rooting interest, regardless of how small or inconsequential it is in that person's mind, and that makes it more fun, win or lose. The emotional investment that brings you back year after year after year after year after.....

Ozzie, I think you and I could have this discussion for a whole day!

The reason that basketball games are fun, win or lose (but more win) is because students are passionate, knowledgeable, and want to experience Cameron Indoor Stadium. For the most part, students aren't passionate about Duke football (evidence: lack of discussion amongst students, lack of editorial coverage in the Chronicle), aren't knowledgeable (evidence: the average student couldn't name 5 players on the football team whereas the average student can name at least 7-8 basketball players), and don't care to experience WW (evidence: clear lack of student support). If you don't care about something, it's hard to make it fun. I'm sure that's why Duke tailgate was initially created - to make the games more 'fun'. And I agree that most can easily fit the game into their schedule but choose not to because of the three reasons I listed above.

I probably should have attended a few more games as a student. But my lack of passion for Duke football, coupled with the fact that none of my friends were keen, prevented me from going.

It's a clear chicken vs an egg situation - the team needs the fans to come out an support which will lead to more wins and the fans need more wins in order to come out. As Cut is slowly bringing in a winning mentality, the students will come. However, give it time. Give it time.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Ozzie, I think you and I could have this discussion for a whole day!

We could, but we won't because I have to go out and earn a living soon... :cool:

I'll admit, after baseball, my passion coming into Duke as a freshman was football. Not college football, pro football. I grew up in the NYC area and was a Jets fan - Joe Willie Namath and all that. Then we moved to Ft. Lauderdale at the same time Don Shula became the Dolphin's coach (1970) and we got season tickets and I became a Dolfan. I can still name ~20 of the starters on the perfect season team. I played high school football and club football at Duke. I followed the Knicks and Rangers passionately in Jr. high school and high school (in both NY and FL) - both teams were pretty good - Willis Reed, Walt Frazier; Jean Ratelle and Brad Park, etc. So I was pretty well rounded coming in an fell in love with Duke college sports very easily, and have been ever since.

But the college football experience is a fun experience, whether you are "in to" the game or just like the pageantry and spectacle. The team is (finally) putting on an entertaining show and winning exciting games. Sometimes they will lose exciting games (@Wake Forest this year would be an example of that). If the students would just come out, preferably not drunk and without a hangover. they'd probably have a damn good time, win, lose or draw!

Talk to you tonight maybe. Gotta go!

[El_Diablo]

I know the OP wanted a constructive conversation here rather than an ad hominem indictment of students, but I see we've started to get away from that a little bit. We can bemoan the students as schmucks or dismiss their reasons ("excuses") for not going going to games, or draw dubious comparisons with schools that have actually accomplished something on the football field...but the underlying fact of the matter is that most students feel zero connection with the football team. They came to Duke with either another "favorite" team growing up, or they don't like football. At most other schools, students at least conceivably could have grown up as fans of that school's team...or have a decent enough team once they get there to convert them. That has not been the case at Duke until the last year or so...and even then, we're still talking about losing seasons rather than high school football quality seasons. Does that make the students schmucks, or selfish? Perhaps. But it's not really going to do anyone any good to merely resent the students for the institutionalized neglect that led to this widespread student apathy.

Loran made a decent point about attendance at other sports, but it was dismissed a little too quickly IMO. People don't go to volleyball games. People don't go to wrestling or fencing matches. People don't go to soccer games. People don't go to lacrosse games. If anything, these Blue Devils deserve support even more than the football team, since they have actually produced some success on the field/court/mat. Yet people don't watch them...that includes the uncaring students and the posters on this board who seemed to have carved out a special exception for the football team for whatever reason (probably because they enjoy the sport more than the others). My point is...the crusties complaining the loudest here have a connection with the football program. A strong connection. Maybe they attended Duke when it fielded a competitive team. Maybe they simply had no other favorite teams coming in, or overlooked the quality of the product out of school spirit. But for a lot of current students, there is no connection. Kind of like the general lack of interest in going to women's volleyball matches, even though they are really good (and, on a side note, surprisingly fun to watch--I recommend it to anyone who hasn't seen a match yet to give it a try). If you don't have enough of a connection with the volleyball team to want to go to their matches, but you get angry or upset at others because they don't have a connection with the football team...it seems pretty hypocritical (to me, at least). Which is why I don't understand the general negativity towards the students, even if a lot of them are selfish (and they are, let's not kid ourselves here).

Anyway, what are the solutions to improving student attendance?

Getting rid of tailgate may seem like a good idea (for various reasons), but it's not going to seriously improve football attendance. 85-90% of the student body does not even attend tailgate...they're off in the library trying to catch up on work, or sleeping, or visiting friends out of town, or watching TV, or doing who knows what else. For the people who attend tailgate but don't care enough about football to go to the game...why would having no tailgate suddenly give them the sort of personal incentive to attend? Most of them would probably just stay home and scratch their rear ends (or whatever it is they do).

Providing in-game incentives may give a marginal boost. I mean, there are only so many t-shirts to go around, and the chances of winning one are slim.

Providing cross-promotional incentives (priority access to basketball games) seems like it has some potential. Yeah, it might seem sad to you that students have to be coaxed into going, but if it gets them in the stands, a lot of them may develop the personal connection with the team that eventually needs no encouragement. Another potential promotion that was already squandered this year would be to tie football attendance into Final Four tickets should they become available. Basically, the people who go to all the games could get first chance at the 660 student tickets that are made available if the basketball team makes it to Houston, then the people who attended all but one game, then the people who missed two games, and so on. The way they are currently distributed (randomly chosen among the people who walked over to Page Auditorium the day before the Sweet Sixteen) can easily be replaced, and this is a way to do it in a manner that encourages student participation at football games, and with no extra cost. There are literally tons of ways to promote football attendance at low or zero cost...the athletics department just needs to get creative.

Any other ideas?

Finally, the team needs to win (or at least avoid embarrassing losses) in order to maintain the positive momentum in establishing a connection with the students. When you $#!& the bed against Richmond or Army, however, you take two steps back. The current defense gives up more scores than Karen Owen, and it takes an amazing offensive effort to overcome that. Thankfully it's been present for the past two weeks. If it keeps up, it will help overcome the groan-inducing missed tackles and blown coverage that turns people off to Duke football, and student attendance will gradually increase through no extra promotional efforts. But the promotions wouldn't hurt, which is why I think we (the royal we, mainly the athletics department) need to find creative ways to get students into the stands. Because it is a problem.

[El_Diablo]

Sorry for the long-winded post. I was trying to juggle a lot of different thoughts and decided to combine them into one statement rather than respond to other posts haphazardly.

Go Duke!

[Scorp4me]

Getting rid of tailgate may seem like a good idea (for various reasons), but it's not going to seriously improve football attendance. 85-90% of the student body does not even attend tailgate...they're off in the library trying to catch up on work, or sleeping, or visiting friends out of town, or watching TV, or doing who knows what else. For the people who attend tailgate but don't care enough about football to go to the game...why would having no tailgate suddenly give them the sort of personal incentive to attend? Most of them would probably just stay home and scratch their rear ends (or whatever it is they do).

Again I say move the tailgate to another part of the campus. I'm serious when I say the students should be given up on and never missed again.

[Bluedog]

Again I say move the tailgate to another part of the campus. I'm serious when I say the students should be given up on and never missed again.

What other part of campus logistically could such an event occur? And in regards to "giving up on the students," the same could be said for our football team after its lackluster results the past decade. Why should we just abandon ship during times of adversity? Personally, I think we should give up on neither. Both have room for improvement, and I think it can be done.

In regards to good attendance at Wake, I think that's definitely a good point and something to possibly emulate (hopefully, getting results on the field as well!). It really just needs to be part of the culture and the "thing to do" on a Saturday. Honestly, I would have attended a lot more games during my undergraduate years (we won two ACC games in my four years) if I had other people to go with. It was a challenge to find somebody with any interest whatsoever. I'd usually find someone to go with at halftime if it was a competitive game, but that was a very rare occurrence. Maybe I needed more friends...(Basketball games was not hard to find somebody to go with obviously though).

[Biscuit King]

Long-term solutions are difficult because it takes a lot to break the lose-no fans-no recruits-lose cycle.

Short-term solutions are worth considering, too. For the BC game this week:

1. Email letter to students from Cut, K White and or Coach K urging them to attend.
2. Give out bracelets for priority entrance to Cameron for the Princeton game to all students who show up on Saturday for football.
3. Publicize giveaways and/or special events at halftime for students -- free books for next semester? Shoot, give away cash for all I care. It doesn't take much money to inspire people to get off their butts.
4. Close "tailgate" at 11:45. This can be enforced. The administration has given its implicit approval to this non-traditional event. It could easily say, ok, in return for allowing this joke of an event, we will shut it down 15 minutes prior to kickoff and expect everyone to attend the game.


In the future, I think it's worth exploring some of the rewards/point systems that Wake and other schools have used. Students attending football games get points that will give them priority seating in cameron. Why not priority registration for classes? Or funds for social activities for their living groups? All of these should be considered.

We need BUTTS IN SEATS.

[Bluedog]

4. Close "tailgate" at 11:45. This can be enforced. The administration has given its implicit approval to this non-traditional event. It could easily say, ok, in return for allowing this joke of an event, we will shut it down 15 minutes prior to kickoff and expect everyone to attend the game.

I thought this was already done. At least I recall the administration saying a couple years ago that tailgate would be closed just prior to kickoff. Have they changed this/stopped enforcing it? Just curious...

[Duke of Nashville]

Long-term solutions are difficult because it takes a lot to break the lose-no fans-no recruits-lose cycle.

Short-term solutions are worth considering, too. For the BC game this week:

2. Give out bracelets for priority entrance to Cameron for the Princeton game to all students who show up on Saturday for football.

We need BUTTS IN SEATS.

We also need to keep butts in the seats. I'd hate for students to show up for the first half or quarter and then have no desire to stay once they have received their priority bracelet. I like the idea but instead give it the the students who stay the longest and push out the most noise.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I don't believe this forum is going to solve the matter of student attendance. I do believe that those who care about Duke football, be they alums, fans or both, can do something about filling the stadium. I'm following Eddie Cameron's lead here. If the students aren't there, find a way to fill the seats anyway.

If you attend the games, invite somebody who's not been going. As of this morning, tickets are still available for the last two home games.

If you can get a group together, get in touch with the group sales rep and set up something for your group. Chris Kautza at 919-684-9008 or ckautza@duaa.duke.edu can help you with tickets and other perks for groups.

It's worth a try with less than a week before the next game and time enough to plan something for the Carolina game.

[kingboozer]

I have been to my fair share of Duke football games over the past 5 or 6 years now as well as other school's games in the state and there is a noticeable difference every time I've been to ECU, NC State or even App State and came back to WW. We just don't have the culture. If our beloved university is serious about wanting to be a competitive football team then we need to start acting like a competitive football team. I know that there is a BIG difference academically between ECU,App State, and NC State(although less so at NCSU) but college kids are college kids, they want the electricity surrounding a game, we do it for Men's BBall we can do it for football. We have the coach, we have the dollars, we have the potential, we just don't have the electricity. As far as the academic excuse for students not attending is concerned, it is absolute CRAP. I went to Duke, I got good grades, I graduated, and I went to football games. The hypocrisy that these kids with these demanding schedules can't make it to a SATURDAY football game but have no problem making it to a basketball game any day of the week is ridiculous. I love Duke basketball, it is a beautiful thing, but I just don't understand why football can't be a big deal too. I hope one day it is!

GO DUKE!

[CameronBornAndBred]

I'm following Eddie Cameron's lead here. If the students aren't there, find a way to fill the seats anyway.

If you attend the games, invite somebody who's not been going. As of this morning, tickets are still available for the last two home games.

One way they could at least make it less noticeable is take away, or shrink, the student's section. Go ahead and let the GA ticket holders sit over there, especially for the unc game when we know there won't be but about 5 students in their section. I'm not saying take away the student section permanently, but at least for these last two games. They can take down the signs that designate them as for students and replace them with ones that say General Admission. The students of course can still sit there, and hopefully will, but at least there won't be a huge empty section staring the rest of WW in the face.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

One way they could at least make it less noticeable is take away, or shrink, the student's section. Go ahead and let the GA ticket holders sit over there, especially for the unc game when we know there won't be but about 5 students in their section. I'm not saying take away the student section permanently, but at least for these last two games. They can take down the signs that designate them as for students and replace them with ones that say General Admission. The students of course can still sit there, and hopefully will, but at least there won't be a huge empty section staring the rest of WW in the face.
You do that and it'll be all baby gak blue...

Oops. I'm not really here. Back to work.

[devil84]

Just a couple of comments on some things that have been mentioned. I have children at Wake and State, and they way those schools do things have been brought up in this thread. Here's some more info.

Like DevilDeac says, Wake's field is about a mile off campus. My son is a student there (he transferred from NCSU). He's gone to all the games that he could get a ride to, missing a few solely because of transportation. He says that he and most of his friends really have to use their time management skills to go to games, because there's a reason the students call it "Work Forest." Because of the recent success on the gridiron, there's a culture of reminding each other to ensure the work's done to get to the game. To be fair, I have not been enlightened if there are any parties with, uh, shall we say anything that might further attract young men to the game that parents might frown upon. Once they get to the stadium, they show their ID to get into the game. No tickets, additional funds, or pre-planning needed (other than transportation and clearing one's schedule) needed to get into the game.

Actually, he missed last Saturday's game at Wake to come home to attend the Duke game! (Which, because it was raining in Raleigh, we assumed it was raining in Durham, and not wanting to get sick, we watched every minute of it together on ESPN3 -- our first ability to do so since TWC recently made it available.) My kids are Duke fans, first!

My daughter is a senior at NCSU, and my son was a freshman there last year. They also have an off-campus football stadium, and the transportation for most students is a nightmare. Either they pile far too many kids in somebody's car to go over there, or they wait hours for a bus. There aren't enough tickets to go around for the student body, so for $40, they can join a student group to boost their chances of getting a ticket. Simply belonging to the club ups one's chances of getting a ticket, but swiping in at other sports events increases your chances even further. There are also many other free ways to increase your chances (Greeks and other social groups have stature) that don't require $40 and going to other events, so most won't pay after freshman year. There is quite a tailgate party that sounds similar to Duke's, but instead of costumes, "preppy" attire is required. Because of the much larger student body from the same state where kids have grown up being State fans, ticket demand far exceeds supply. However, there's not been a lot of recent success for State football, and the students are there, win or lose (tailgating at the off-site stadium is quite an additional draw).

Both schools play their rivals when students are there. Last year was the notable exception when the Duke-UNC game was moved to mid-season, leaving the State-UNC game for Thanksgiving. Adding insult to injury, the Duke-State game was over fall break. Student attendance was definitely down at State for both games. While many students live within a 2 hour drive, a number went to visit other family out of state or had other family (and budgetary) reasons to not make the trip back on Saturday (and their dorms close for Thanksgiving, IIRC).

Both Wake and State have an average football history. Some really good years, some abysmal years, but mostly average. Ditto with basketball. Duke, though, has been a perennially elite basketball school, and is hyped by the media THE measure by which other school's student sections are judged. Football, on the other hand, has long been publicly trumpeted as THE measure of a losing program. No other school has the two major revenue sports at such polar extremes.

I admit, even I prioritize going to games. With season tickets to basketball, that's my priority. I also have GA season tickets to football. I'm a fair-weather football fan...literally. Not much into cold, rainy games, nor blazingly hot games (mom comes, too, and she had severe heat-related issues several years ago). But if the weather's nice and there's nothing else absolutely pressing (parents weekend where my kids go to school), even if the team is 0 and whatever, I'll have a great time cheering them on. I guess I should expect that the students would make the same choice, particularly if there are plenty of other things to do on campus (like the tailgate).

What factors might help getting students to games?
- Winning. It's always more fun to go to games where we win. When we have a season where we're favored for many games and considered competitive for most, they'll be there. The losing streak hurts. Even with the same record, if the record looked like W-L-L-W-L-L-W-L-L, there's more interest than W-L-L-L-L-L-L-W-W. It may pick up this season with those last two wins.
- Weather. We can't do much about the weather, but we can have night games early in the season when daytime temps are in the mid 90s. And night games might be more of a draw because they take place at a "reasonable" hour in the student world.
- Many students would go to the UNC game simply because it's UNC. Schedule it when they're there!
- Make the games worth going to for other reasons. It's been covered a lot here: give students a trinket like a free neoprene coozie on their way out at the end of the game. Toss t-shirts into the crowd. Offer a special food deal at the stadium.
- Student groups can make it a social event. Make it a competition to see who gets more people there. Consider a creative way to help freshmen learn the standard cheers to lessen the learning curve in Cameron. Have competitions between groups that finish in Wallace Wade, for example, a talent show with the final two or three performing and the winner voted on by applause.

It's important to note that NO ONE THING in that list will get the students out. Lots of things have to change. And we fans and alumni just have to be patient. We can wish aloud that there are more students at games, but I think we're just going to frustrate ourselves and make ourselves look silly by insisting that the students show up. Besides, one of the best ways to get teenage/young adult children to do the opposite of what parents/elders think is best is to have the parents/elders nag their children incessantly.

[CameronBornAndBred]

It's important to note that NO ONE THING in that list will get the students out. Lots of things have to change. And we fans and alumni just have to be patient. We can wish aloud that there are more students at games, but I think we're just going to frustrate ourselves and make ourselves look silly by insisting that the students show up.
Thanks for a great post '84. I can tell you one thing I won't do is just be patient. I've really enjoyed this thread, and I think we've got tons of great ideas. I'm going to put together an email to several people in the administration and the sports office with a synopsis of our concerns and the solutions that have been suggested here. Will anyone read it? Will anyone respond or take action if they do read it? I don't know, but I do know that just talking without action never solves anything. I really believe Duke can make the football games an experience the students want to be a part of, they just need to figure out what it is that will bring them in.

[Nugget]

What, exactly is "Tailgate" and when did it become such a "tradition" that it replaced actually going to the game?

I graduated in 91 and I certainly recall lots of groups (including my fraternity) having "tailgates" in the sense of setting up grills/smokers/beer kegs in the parking lots around Cameron or in front of sections on the quad, and then people moseying over to the game.

When did that morph into whatever it is that "Tailgate" is now?

I can understand, to a degree, how the continuous losing through the late 90s and most of the 2000's might have turned students off from actually going to the games. But, we've now got a team that is (i) generally competitive and (ii) significantly more exciting to watch, even if we don't win all the time.

Given how easy the football experience is for a Duke student -- entrance is free, no need to campout for "tickets" to get in, the stadium is an easy walk no matter how lubricated you are, and there is easy access to good seats -- it seems absurd to me that people would not even give the new product a chance.

And I really don't buy the "we're sooooo busy studying and catching up on sleep" excuse. Everyone studies in college and everyone sleeps. The current students can't possibly be so busy studying and sleeping that they can't spare 5 afternoons to take advantage of the easy experience of Duke football. Again, I can see not doing it when our program was hopeless and boring. But, this club is neither.

[BlueDster]

- Student groups can make it a social event. Make it a competition to see who gets more people there. Consider a creative way to help freshmen learn the standard cheers to lessen the learning curve in Cameron. Have competitions between groups that finish in Wallace Wade, for example, a talent show with the final two or three performing and the winner voted on by applause.


I think a realistic idea, which the school has used in other contexts before, would be to throw a party for the freshman dorm/West Campus quad/SLG that has the highest attendance at every game. Freshman year especially, there were competitions like this such as a green competition where the dorm with the lowest power usage at the end of a month got some sort of party. I think that by doing this, you could instill a tradition in each freshman class that would hopefully carry over into the next few years.

As a graduate of 2010, I can confirm that the main reason that people don't go to the games is not that they are too busy, it's just that they don't want to go (or they're hungover from tailgate). Tailgate does end before the game starts, which is strictly enforced with security officers literally removing people from the parking lot. About 25% of the people at tailgate head over to the game, at least for a quarter or two, while everyone else goes back to sleep off their hangover. Getting rid of tailgate would probably decrease attendance.

I think an important point is that for the freshman, there IS a commute from East to West campus, which can be difficult with only one bus every 15 minutes or so. This factor alone could keep some people away, then by the time they're on West Campus they don't care about football. Maybe a publicized effort to transport freshman directly from East to the stadium would increase attendance. As far as off campus students go, there's nowhere to park on campus on gamedays, because even if the student has a Blue Zone pass, they are not allowed to park there. You have to either get a ride or pay for visitor parking. Yet another discouraging factor. So, when people say all they have to do is walk across the street, that's really just the sophomore class and some juniors and seniors.

Another thing to keep in mind is that roughly 500 students are on a study abroad program in the fall every year (the much more popular semester as there is less conflict with basketball season), which decreases the pool of possible attendees.

[devil84]

Thanks for a great post '84. I can tell you one thing I won't do is just be patient. I've really enjoyed this thread, and I think we've got tons of great ideas. I'm going to put together an email to several people in the administration and the sports office with a synopsis of our concerns and the solutions that have been suggested here. Will anyone read it? Will anyone respond or take action if they do read it? I don't know, but I do know that just talking without action never solves anything. I really believe Duke can make the football games an experience the students want to be a part of, they just need to figure out what it is that will bring them in.

I'd love to see the administration take more steps to getting the students there. I won't hold my breath, though. There are some things they can do that would make the experience better for all -- night games instead of blazingly hot early games, for one. Scheduling the UNC game for when the students are there. Another one I forgot is more support for the band. A bigger band, which is possible for a private school of this size (See: Wake Forest), by default gets more students in the student section (if only because they're in a band uniform), and would enhance the game day experience for all attendees. Besides, if we go to a big bowl game, we're going to need a band of size that looks good in that bowl parade! That's going to take a few years to build, and that requires more support from the administration.

What I'd hate to see is the administration coming up with plans to attract students that students perceive as hokey and it backfires.

I'd be interested in seeing what responses you get from the administration, CB&B. Letting the powers that be know that the students are missed at the games and providing constructive ideas is a great way to spend time impatiently waiting for the students to show up. But I'm still thinking we have to be a lot more patient than we'd like to be.

[Biscuit King]

If "tailgate" really does shut down 15 minutes before kickoff, then here's another idea: Free pizza (or cantina burritos) to students in the first quarter.

For the supposed 75% of "tailgaters" who are going back to eat lunch and sleep it off, steer their drunk butts towards WW for food. How much would that cost per game? $5,000 tops? Well worth the investment.

College kids love free food. In fact, add to my earlier list of ideas this one: a giveaway of free food points every game. One lucky student wins $500 worth of extra food points.

One last thing. I don't care if these silly ideas only incent students to show up, and not to stay. If they are so lame and pathetic that you can't get them to stay in the stadium for a good, competitive game (assuming it is one), well then there's nothing you can do for their sorry butts. They are lame and always will be. You do what you can to get them to show up and you hope that the product on the field will hold their attention. That's all you can do.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I think a realistic idea, which the school has used in other contexts before, would be to throw a party for the freshman dorm/West Campus quad/SLG that has the highest attendance at every game. Freshman year especially, there were competitions like this such as a green competition where the dorm with the lowest power usage at the end of a month got some sort of party. I think that by doing this, you could instill a tradition in each freshman class that would hopefully carry over into the next few years.

As a graduate of 2010, I can confirm that the main reason that people don't go to the games is not that they are too busy, it's just that they don't want to go (or they're hungover from tailgate). Tailgate does end before the game starts, which is strictly enforced with security officers literally removing people from the parking lot. About 25% of the people at tailgate head over to the game, at least for a quarter or two, while everyone else goes back to sleep off their hangover. Getting rid of tailgate would probably decrease attendance.

I think an important point is that for the freshman, there IS a commute from East to West campus, which can be difficult with only one bus every 15 minutes or so. This factor alone could keep some people away, then by the time they're on West Campus they don't care about football. Maybe a publicized effort to transport freshman directly from East to the stadium would increase attendance. As far as off campus students go, there's nowhere to park on campus on gamedays, because even if the student has a Blue Zone pass, they are not allowed to park there. You have to either get a ride or pay for visitor parking. Yet another discouraging factor. So, when people say all they have to do is walk across the street, that's really just the sophomore class and some juniors and seniors.

Another thing to keep in mind is that roughly 500 students are on a study abroad program in the fall every year (the much more popular semester as there is less conflict with basketball season), which decreases the pool of possible attendees.

Every era reflects that generation's own ideas about what's convenient and what's not.

I lived on East Campus for four years and had Saturday classes mostly on West. Back then we had to return in order eat lunch in the East Union, go back to the dorm to change to a suit or other dressy outfit and be picked up by our dates from West. Most students rode the campus buses because there were fewer cars on campus. (Prior to my freshman year, students paid to ride the campus buses.) All of this was accomplished by 2P when most football games began. This is not the "I walked four miles in the snow to get to school" speech. This is fact regarding what students in a different era did to get to the football games.

We can continue to discuss this issue til the next kickoff or the end of the season, but I don't believe that this is the forum to influence cultural changes on campus. At best we may be able to make helpful suggestions to the administration.

If we want to see the seats filled for the last two games, those who attend could bring more people with them. I'm adding four to Saturday's attendance.

[uh_no]

several people have suggested somehow tieing bball to fball attendance....i'd just like to say that would never fly in 100 years here.

The lineup policy is sacred....the first in line are the first in....always....there is no 'priority access' for anyone....i don't know if any of you remember the 'registration' debacle from 3 years ago....but there's a reason it got canned halfway through the season...because it said there were two classes of lines...those who had registered a few nights earlier and those that hadn't

the lineup policy is simple...lineup...get in....students would not be okay with saying...'yeah this guy is a big football fan...therefore he gets better seats than the people who aren't'...not going to happen

[El_Diablo]

several people have suggested somehow tieing bball to fball attendance....i'd just like to say that would never fly in 100 years here.

The lineup policy is sacred....the first in line are the first in....always....there is no 'priority access' for anyone....i don't know if any of you remember the 'registration' debacle from 3 years ago....but there's a reason it got canned halfway through the season...because it said there were two classes of lines...those who had registered a few nights earlier and those that hadn't

the lineup policy is simple...lineup...get in....students would not be okay with saying...'yeah this guy is a big football fan...therefore he gets better seats than the people who aren't'...not going to happen

False. There are already themed basketball nights for Seniors, Freshmen, Greeks, "Large groups," and Inferno members. These groups all get priority access for one pre-conference basketball game...look it up in the link I provided earlier if you don't believe me:

http://dukegroups.duke.edu/kville/theme-nights-2010-2011/

The lineup policy is clearly not "sacred." Why not add a similar one for football attendance? Or simply replace one of the existing ones with football attendance?

[Biscuit King]

Bball line policy changes every year. KVille policy changes every year. In the past there have been many instances of bracelet handouts at different times and for different reasons.

The fact that anyone would get upset about the idea of tying hoops priority to football attendance tells me it's a GOOD idea. The whole point is to try to find something students care about and tie it to football attendance. None of this would be necessary if more students cared about football already... and maybe in the future we'll reach that point. But for now I think the best we can do is brainstorm ways to appeal to those sad souls who otherwise can't be bothered to show up 6-7 times a year on a beautiful saturday to watch free college football.

[dukeENG2003]

every time we tie some other priority to bball seating, it backfires. The crowd is always lame at whatever games those are, be it greek night, or senior night, or whatever. Don't let one problem bleed create another. The free food in the first quarter though is actually a pretty good idea.

If you build it, they will come. Cut is building. . .

WFU is a situation where that team won an ACC title not too many years ago. Our last one was 1989.

[ddsdevil]

One thing that Coach Cut did last season was "Cokes with Cut." It gave students a chance to sit around with Cut in the great hall and to talk football. I believe that it had pretty good attendance. This is one way to try developing a football culture. Connect the coaches with the students. Coach Cut is a lot of fun to be around and he should use that to his advantage.

[uh_no]

False. There are already themed basketball nights for Seniors, Freshmen, Greeks, "Large groups," and Inferno members. These groups all get priority access for one pre-conference basketball game...look it up in the link I provided earlier if you don't believe me:

http://dukegroups.duke.edu/kville/theme-nights-2010-2011/

The lineup policy is clearly not "sacred." Why not add a similar one for football attendance? Or simply replace one of the existing ones with football attendance?

yes...but something like 500 people get in before the people for the special nights.....i hardly call that 'priority access'

[uh_no]

One thing that Coach Cut did last season was "Cokes with Cut." It gave students a chance to sit around with Cut in the great hall and to talk football. I believe that it had pretty good attendance. This is one way to try developing a football culture. Connect the coaches with the students. Coach Cut is a lot of fun to be around and he should use that to his advantage.

the attendacnce was good for the first couple, but went down as the season went on, which is why he isn't doing it this year....I think a great idea would be to teach a course (along the lines of some of the history of sports classes) which is idk a credit or half credit....put it in the team's practice facility or in cameron or something...have a limit of like 500 students or something....and have him just teach football and make it required to go to x number of games for the class....a ton of students would sign up for the class, and get interested in football

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

the attendacnce was good for the first couple, but went down as the season went on, which is why he isn't doing it this year....I think a great idea would be to teach a course (along the lines of some of the history of sports classes) which is idk a credit or half credit....put it in the team's practice facility or in cameron or something...have a limit of like 500 students or something....and have him just teach football and make it required to go to x number of games for the class....a ton of students would sign up for the class, and get interested in football
Now that's a great idea! It would also work well to have some of the sessions taught by some of the assistants so that students get an up close look at the program.

To build their fan base here in WS, one of the things Wake does is to offer a special course on football for women. It's a single session taught by Jim Grobe in the off season.

[Dukeface88]

yes...but something like 500 people get in before the people for the special nights.....i hardly call that 'priority access'

How does that make a difference? The point is that we already use a different line-up policy for certain games. Registration was a debacle because no one thought that you deserved to get in early just because you had an internet connection, as opposed to rewarding certain groups (seniors, Inferno members) or improving attendance for the season (freshmen, frats). I don't see how someone could say that people who demonstrate loyalty to Duke athletics don't deserve to be rewarded in some way, especially when that's the whole point of the line-up to begin with. The only difference is that you'd be using "time spent at football" instead "time spent in line" for one game.

Seriously, if we can change the K-ville rules as drastically as last year, I don't see a problem with adding a new category for rules that we already have.

ETA: On a side note, they should clarify that




Last year, any student who arrived by tipoff got into EVERY game



refers specifically to the theme nights. It wasn't the case for conference games. I got turned away from the WF game - only home game I missed - and I'm pretty sure BC, VT and Maryland were full too. I really shouldn't need to mention UNC, but I guess I will anyway.

[PumpkinFunk]

I don't know how many current students have posted in here, so I'll give my $0.02:

When the team is doing well, students do come. The first 3 home games of the season (Elon, Bama, and Army) did have pretty good attendance. Last season, we had pretty good attendance at every game - remember, we were 5-4 going into the Georgia Tech game. 2 seasons ago, we had decent attendance through the last home game.

I understand the student attendance sucks, and I honestly can't say I have the same perspective as most students (since I'm in the band and I enjoy football games, in general, so much that I've paid for tickets at 2 different away games over my 4 years at Duke to see what the atmosphere is like at other ACC schools), but the #1 problem seems to be the lack of a winning team. I was shocked by this weekend's attendance, but I think the weather was certainly a part of it - it was raining lightly, cold, and miserable even for the band. When the product on the field is good, that will deter people from leaving. On a day like Saturday, when the team was 2-6 going into the game, the weather was a deterrent. In terms of other factors, the academic excuse does fly, to some extent - a very sizable portion of the student body just isn't into sports in general, not even basketball. Without an incentive to go to football, it's hard to get those people to stop working and come to the game. I honestly just think Coach Cut and the Athletics Department have done an awful job at marketing this year. Last year, he did Cokes with Coach Cut, Athletics went around and did things to encourage attendance by the big living groups on campus, and there were more promotions. I understand that the money is tight and it's hard to do that for students when they're often flaky and leave as soon as things go downhill.

On the other hand: I can say easily that Saturday was the emptiest that I've ever seen Wallace Wade, in 4 years, student section and general admission alike. You can blame the students, but when the general admission isn't even close to full, it compounds the problems. Students started coming slowly in the 2nd half, but it certainly wasn't enough. I'm ashamed of how bad the turnout is by my peers, but I can't blame them all. If I wasn't in the band, I'm not sure how motivated I would be to come, with or without a Tailgate to "motivate" me further, because of the performance on the field. It takes time to get students interested and motivated to come to games. Performance on the field will certainly help... and it's unfortunate that the team has squandered such a favorable schedule this year, where we've lost a few games that should have been wins. The Army game has stuck in many people's minds. The win on Saturday will help with attendance against BC, but don't expect people to show on Thanksgiving weekend for Carolina, even if we're miraculously 5-6 - it's nearly impossible to get all that many students to plan their Thanksgiving breaks around a football game when people come from so far away and plans have to be made so early. I've come back every year for that game, and plan on it this year, too, but that's because I use the game as an excuse to get away from my insane family... and it's a 4-5 hour drive for me.

[uh_no]

On the other hand: I can say easily that Saturday was the emptiest that I've ever seen Wallace Wade, in 4 years, student section and general admission alike.

How quickly we forget the games under ted roof......during roof's last year, attendance was around what it was on saturday....but that was EVERY game

[jimsumner]

How quickly we forget the games under ted roof......during roof's last year, attendance was around what it was on saturday....but that was EVERY game

The lowest announced attendance in recent years was 10,126 in 2005 against VMI.

Duke drew 10,431 in 2001 against Georgia Tech and 10,835 the next week against Wake Forest. That's right. 21,000 fans total in consecutive home games.

So, Duke has been a lot emptier than last Saturday. In fact, Duke drew less than 20,000 fans 23 times from 2000 through 2007.

So, progress--however halting--is being made.

[uh_no]

The lowest announced attendance in recent years was 10,126 in 2005 against VMI.

Duke drew 10,431 in 2001 against Georgia Tech and 10,835 the next week against Wake Forest. That's right. 21,000 fans total in consecutive home games.

So, Duke has been a lot emptier than last Saturday. In fact, Duke drew less than 20,000 fans 23 times from 2000 through 2007.

So, progress--however halting--is being made.

Thanks for the numbers, Jim. I was just a little peeved at the letter in the chronicle today and posts here saying that the attendance was the worst they had ever seen (in x number of year) and unless x<=3, its just not true, and is a result of people wiping from their memories just how bad duke was just 4 years ago and how few people showed up to games (student sections~=20 people sometimes if I remember back to my days as a frosh)

[Reilly]

....

Loran made a decent point about attendance at other sports, but it was dismissed a little too quickly IMO. People don't go to volleyball games. People don't go to wrestling or fencing matches. People don't go to soccer games. People don't go to lacrosse games. .....

College football in the South --- and, yes, at Duke too --- has traditionally been a place for the University to come together as a whole. Sort of a compact-of-generations thing. The Saturday-ness of it all lends itself to that. We pay the coach $1.5m. The Devil is there, as is the full band. The President is there in a box. Alums travel hours or catch flights back into town. It's a gathering.

I agree with you wholeheartedly: other sports need and deserve support. I hope they get it. Gameday Saturday is special for whatever historical reasons. Gameday Saturday at Duke will continue to be special. It would be even better with even better student support. It doesn't have anything, really, to do with football. Eating bbq, watching the band, the cheerleaders, the Devils, the kids on inflatables, seeing old friends and alums ... it's a gathering of the University as a whole, the president, etc... If I were an international student in Country X where futbol was the gathering spot for the school as a whole, where everyone gathered to eat and drink and to just be together as one, I'd go to it, though I know nothing about futbol at all and would rather watch paint dry.

We're having a Duke gathering next Saturday. This is not a new idea: we've been doing it at the same spot on Saturdays, every Fall, since 1929. It's a Fall Saturday Celebration, to paraphrase Cut. The students are most definitely invited and welcome. I hope they come in force b/c they add much to this university-wide gathering: so much. We are Duke.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

College football in the South --- and, yes, at Duke too --- has traditionally been a place for the University to come together as a whole. Sort of a compact-of-generations thing. The Saturday-ness of it all lends itself to that. We pay the coach $1.5m. The Devil is there, as is the full band. The President is there in a box. Alums travel hours or catch flights back into town. It's a gathering.

I agree with you wholeheartedly: other sports need and deserve support. I hope they get it. Gameday Saturday is special for whatever historical reasons. Gameday Saturday at Duke will continue to be special. It would be even better with even better student support. It doesn't have anything, really, to do with football. Eating bbq, watching the band, the cheerleaders, the Devils, the kids on inflatables, seeing old friends and alums ... it's a gathering of the University as a whole, the president, etc... If I were an international student in Country X where futbol was the gathering spot for the school as a whole, where everyone gathered to eat and drink and to just be together as one, I'd go to it, though I know nothing about futbol at all and would rather watch paint dry.

We're having a Duke gathering next Saturday. This is not a new idea: we've been doing it at the same spot on Saturdays, every Fall, since 1929. It's a Fall Saturday Celebration, to paraphrase Cut. The students are most definitely invited and welcome. I hope they come in force b/c they add much to this university-wide gathering: so much. We are Duke.

The best post on the subject of this thread! You have captured the essence of the event exceptionally well. See you at the gathering!

[CameronBornAndBred]

Last night I wrote to the guy who's FB status started this thread (he has removed that post) and he wrote back an informative response. (Told ya I'm gonna be emailing lotta folks..lol).
It sounds to me that this past weekend really opened some eyes across the board, and it's an issue that has been recognized by those with the power to initiate change. Cutcliffe not only addressed it to the media, but he shared his dissapointment with the team. It appears the writing is on the wall for the end of the tailgate..and if that is true that means positive action is finally being taken.
As I said..I'm on a bit of a mission to email as many folks up top to offer what ideas I can, and we've got some great ones posted so far. It also makes sense to gather thoughts of the students (as well as players which I've already started doing), so any of you who are students, please PM me or even better share them openly with the board. Nothing changes if nobody initiates change. Maybe it's a windmill I'm up against, but I'm willing to charge ahead and give it a shot.

[Acymetric]

Last night I wrote to the guy who's FB status started this thread (he has removed that post) and he wrote back an informative response. (Told ya I'm gonna be emailing lotta folks..lol).
It sounds to me that this past weekend really opened some eyes across the board, and it's an issue that has been recognized by those with the power to initiate change. Cutcliffe not only addressed it to the media, but he shared his dissapointment with the team. It appears the writing is on the wall for the end of the tailgate..and if that is true that means positive action is finally being taken.
As I said..I'm on a bit of a mission to email as many folks up top to offer what ideas I can, and we've got some great ones posted so far. It also makes sense to gather thoughts of the students (as well as players which I've already started doing), so any of you who are students, please PM me or even better share them openly with the board. Nothing changes if nobody initiates change. Maybe it's a windmill I'm up against, but I'm willing to charge ahead and give it a shot.

Someone else posted that tailgate should be contingent on student turnout the previous game...I think that is a great idea (although the logistics of canceling it on short notice might be an issue). Go ahead and cancel it for Boston College so they know this is for real, and then next year implement this policy right off the bat. If tailgate is as much fun as people claim it should be worth "suffering" through a few hours of football to enjoy the tailgate beforehand.

Also, thanks for taking the initiative and trying to get good ideas out to people that can make the changes...keep up the good work!

[CameronBornAndBred]

Someone else posted that tailgate should be contingent on student turnout the previous game...I think that is a great idea (although the logistics of canceling it on short notice might be an issue). Go ahead and cancel it for Boston College so they know this is for real, and then next year implement this policy right off the bat. If tailgate is as much fun as people claim it should be worth "suffering" through a few hours of football to enjoy the tailgate beforehand.

Also, thanks for taking the initiative and trying to get good ideas out to people that can make the changes...keep up the good work!
I don't think anything will happen this year, but it looks like there is a strong chance it won't be around next season. I like your idea on making it contigent on the previous game's attendance..that's a win-win for both parties. They start out with it in place, but from then on it's up to them whether it stays or not.

[lifelongdevil]

word on campus is that tailgate has been canceled this week.

[PumpkinFunk]

While I don't have a confirmation, I'm hearing that Tailgate has officially been canceled for the BC game and for good. Apparently the powers that be have finally cracked down on it.

I should note that ESPNU, when filming their All-Access stuff, was actually barred from entering Tailgate. I can't name my source, but it's someone on good authority. Apparently, the administration and Athletics Department has been embarrassed for some time. I imagine that the Fox Sports online feature this season and the ESPN online feature from last season were part of the reason for them stepping in and ending it, as well.

EDIT:

Expect a Chronicle article tomorrow morning.

[CameronBornAndBred]

word on campus is that tailgate has been canceled this week.
Good to hear. I wonder how that will affect student attendance. Will there be a backlash "screw you" attitude or will they realize why the action has been taken and come out see the game? Or will they not care and still stay home? Only time will tell. But I'm very happy to see some bit of change, I didn't expect it so soon.
P.S. students...we have a pretty fun tailgate going on Devil's Alley. Not just Brunchgate but the whole atmosphere around K-ville. Come experience it, your last chance this season.

[6th Man]

These are very interesting developments. I must admit this past weekend's tailgate finally got to me. I'm walking to Wallace Wade and some drunk student walking away from the stadium is coming down the sidewalk literally pushing fans walking to the stadium out of the way. The things children walking to the game are exposed to is ridiculous. The crazy dress and alcohol fumes are an embarassment to the University. I know many Duke alums that won't even come to the Duke football games because of what they see from these students. I understand these are young kids letting off steam, but tailgate has gotten way out of control and it's become an awful thing for everyone involved.

[PumpkinFunk]

Here's the info that I gathered:

Larry Moneta announced at tonight's IFC President's Meeting that Tailgate is canceled for this Saturday (and therefore for the year). He says that it will return next year, but with "significant reforms". Not sure what that means, but it sounds like the administration is serious about enacting changes in the student football culture.

[loran16]

Here's the info that I gathered:

Larry Moneta announced at tonight's IFC President's Meeting that Tailgate is canceled for this Saturday (and therefore for the year). He says that it will return next year, but with "significant reforms". Not sure what that means, but it sounds like the administration is serious about enacting changes in the student football culture.

No offense to Larry, but "significant reforms" sounds like what they say every year. I'll believe it when i see it.

Also, in response on twitter:
ajgower1088 (http://twitter.com/ajgower1088/status/1807214423576576)[CURSE] you duke canceling the last tailgate of the year...this is bull...and the team is [CURSE]so now actually no one will go to the game

[Duvall]

Also, in response on twitter:
ajgower1088 (http://twitter.com/ajgower1088/status/1807214423576576)[CURSE] you duke canceling the last tailgate of the year...this is bull...and the team is [CURSE]so now actually no one will go to the game

Looks like they finally got rid of UWC.

[loran16]

Looks like they finally got rid of UWC.

UWC? (I put the [CURSE]s in myself, if you're talking about the annoying censor)

[PumpkinFunk]

I'll also add that, according to a friend of mine, a student almost died at Tailgate this past Saturday. This is on top of the hospitalizations that seem to occur every week from Tailgate plus other injuries due to torn up beer cans cutting people.

[Acymetric]

Good to hear. I wonder how that will affect student attendance. Will there be a backlash "screw you" attitude or will they realize why the action has been taken and come out see the game? Or will they not care and still stay home? Only time will tell. But I'm very happy to see some bit of change, I didn't expect it so soon.
P.S. students...we have a pretty fun tailgate going on Devil's Alley. Not just Brunchgate but the whole atmosphere around K-ville. Come experience it, your last chance this season.

I think there will be a backlash, but only from people that weren't that interested/weren't really attending anyway. If they can put together something that is fun but also actually encourages attendance it should blow over, students usually have short memories for this stuff in my experience.

[Lid]

As an alum from the apparently-old days (not even 20 years ago) who never heard of tailgate until I moved back to the area a few years ago and started attending games again, I say good riddance. Like others, it took all of my rhetorical powers to explain the situation to my kids when we walked into games, and I hated having to push my kids out of the way so they didn't get stumbled over or puked on. Ugh, an embarrassment to Duke and to the students who didn't (don't?) get why it was a problem. And for the record, defending something so recent as a "tradition" implies that a dictionary might be in order.

I hope student attendance improves at football games only because selfishly, I hate having the other team's fans be louder than our own, and I can't fix that alone (though I try!). I'd like a more exciting game day atmosphere. However, I also hope for better attendance at women's basketball and volleyball games. I hope for the house-cleaning fairy to visit me every now and then. I hope for world peace. I hope for Kyrie Irving to come to Duke. (Oh wait, some of those things do happen.)

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Looks like they finally got rid of UWC.


UWC? (I put the [CURSE]s in myself, if you're talking about the annoying censor)
I have no idea what UWC is.

[PSurprise]

I have no idea what UWC is.

University Writing Course-the bane of most, if not all freshmans' (sic?) existence...(at least this one)

[dukebsbll14]

Tailgate will never die. Tailgaters will find a way. Note - I don't like tailgate either, but I don't think administration should get rid of it. We don't get rid of tenting because of excessive drinking and EMS visits.

Give Duke football time. You don't really expect us to be filling the stands 3 years into the Cut era when we start off a season 2-6, do you? Granted 10 students in the stands Saturday was VERY disappointing (this was the first game I've missed all season...yay EGR lab, Chem and Math 103 midterms!!) Lets be realistic here. The majority of Duke students probably don't quite GET IT yet and we are all unfortunately going to have to wait until we develop and become more competitive before they show up.

And don't tie basketball attendance into football attendance. Football is football, basketball is basketball. Why don't we just make tent number dependent on how many a Capella performances or fencing matches we go to?

I'm on the same page with you guys here; we need more support from the rest of the students. But look at this from the prospective of the average Duke student who see's Duke football with the reputation it has had recently.

[DevilHorns]

The administration needs to target the freshmen, the tabula rasa.

Freshmen are not ingrained in Duke culture once they step on campus in the Fall. If freshmen in this era of Duke football and had the pleasure to meet a bunch of the football players and Coach Cut during a meet and greet event(s) in the Marketplace on East Campus, where perhaps some free goodies (signed posters, team schedules, t-shirts, etc) were handed out, I'm sure attendance would be up for at least the first few home games (and then if the football team comes through, that attendance may persist).

Is it artificial? sure. But it's a step toward creating that culture. It's hard to change the culture of the upperclassmen that were never committed as a fan of Duke football in the first place.

Target the freshmen. We should contact Dick Broadhead.

[MulletMan]

We don't get rid of tenting because of excessive drinking and EMS visits.

Yeah... but if y'all keep pushing it...


Give Duke football time. You don't really expect us to be filling the stands 3 years into the Cut era when we start off a season 2-6, do you?

I'm on the same page with you guys here; we need more support from the rest of the students. But look at this from the prospective of the average Duke student who see's Duke football with the reputation it has had recently.

Ummm, well, yes... I think that you should be supporting your football team when they are good and bad. Same for basketball. For instance, what if I said, "Well, the Men's team is 22-11 so I don't think they're worth cheering on."

Would you expect me to continue supporting the basketball team? What if they were 0-8 in the ACC? Would you come out to Cameron to support them?

If you are ever going to plan on referring to yourself as a Duke football "fan", then yes, I expect you to be packing the stands.

[BattierD12]

The email from Larry Moneta:

Dear students,

Last Saturday, many of us enjoyed a terrific, hard fought victory over Virginia in Wallace Wade Stadium. I want to acknowledge the tremendous effort of our team and wish more students could have been on hand to celebrate this win. Unfortunately, the positive experience in Wallace Wade was dampened by an incident in tailgate...an incident involving a teenage youth which easily could have been tragic.

This incident has vividly revealed that tailgate as is practiced at Duke must come to an end. It has long lost its value as a pre-football, spirit building activity and has become increasingly dangerous in every iteration. Thus, there will be no student 'tailgate' this Saturday in advance of the game against Boston College.

Over the spring, we will work with students, Athletics and many others to develop a new form of football game day celebration....one that will support our student athletes, be safe and healthy, and showcase the pride of "Dear Old Duke". We will invite your ideas and suggestions and be prepared to celebrate the fall 2011 season with the class and spirit for which Duke is known.

But, before we focus on next year, we have critical games ahead and need your full support of our team. I really hope that you'll all turn out and cheer on the team to a win over Boston College. With the UNC game over Thanksgiving weekend, this will be the last time this year for most of you to show your support. Please join us in Wallace Wade this Saturday!

Larry Moneta
Vice President for Student Affairs

[OZZIE4DUKE]

The email from Larry Moneta:

Dear students,

Last Saturday, many of us enjoyed a terrific, hard fought victory over Virginia in Wallace Wade Stadium. I want to acknowledge the tremendous effort of our team and wish more students could have been on hand to celebrate this win. Unfortunately, the positive experience in Wallace Wade was dampened by an incident in tailgate...an incident involving a teenage youth which easily could have been tragic.

This incident has vividly revealed that tailgate as is practiced at Duke must come to an end. It has long lost its value as a pre-football, spirit building activity and has become increasingly dangerous in every iteration. Thus, there will be no student 'tailgate' this Saturday in advance of the game against Boston College.

Over the spring, we will work with students, Athletics and many others to develop a new form of football game day celebration....one that will support our student athletes, be safe and healthy, and showcase the pride of "Dear Old Duke". We will invite your ideas and suggestions and be prepared to celebrate the fall 2011 season with the class and spirit for which Duke is known.

But, before we focus on next year, we have critical games ahead and need your full support of our team. I really hope that you'll all turn out and cheer on the team to a win over Boston College. With the UNC game over Thanksgiving weekend, this will be the last time this year for most of you to show your support. Please join us in Wallace Wade this Saturday!

Larry Moneta
Vice President for Student Affairs



Thanks for posting this. It is a very well reasoned and well thought out response by the administration, and sure to piss off the immature. If this were 1968, they'd probably storm Allen Building in respnse. ;)

[pbc2]

Here's the Chronicle article: http://chron.it/bGUmXO

I hope we can all work together to make football gamedays a fun and exciting campuswide event.

[dukediv2011]

Here's the Chronicle article: http://chron.it/bGUmXO

I hope we can all work together to make football gamedays a fun and exciting campuswide event.

I am thrilled to see that Tailgate has come to an end. It is a dangerous, stupid event that serves absolutely no purpose. Hopefully the administration and students will come up with a better idea of how to operate pre-game activities for the student body.

[dukebsbll14]

Yeah... but if y'all keep pushing it...



Ummm, well, yes... I think that you should be supporting your football team when they are good and bad. Same for basketball. For instance, what if I said, "Well, the Men's team is 22-11 so I don't think they're worth cheering on."

Would you expect me to continue supporting the basketball team? What if they were 0-8 in the ACC? Would you come out to Cameron to support them?

If you are ever going to plan on referring to yourself as a Duke football "fan", then yes, I expect you to be packing the stands.

Oh we will push it. Just before the point where a DBR thread pops up about it... :D

But seriously,
I go out and support Duke basketball no matter what because I love it. If we were unranked and pulled an 0-35 for 4 years in a row, I would still be out there busting my behind for my classmates. In my short time here at Duke, I've done so for our football team (minus Saturday). I'm just saying that some students aren't like that, and that sucks.

On attendance,
T-shirts and free food will almost certainly bring up attendance. I'm poor. I run out of food point too easily (side note: seriously, how come no one else I know has food point problems? I'm freaking scrawny!) And just get people to convince their friends to go to the game. Figure each person gets 3-5 friends who would normally be sitting in their dorm and says, "hey, lets go to the football game!" that's the way I do it.

[sagegrouse]

DBR can claim some credit for this action by the Administration. This has been a great thread -- argumentative, passionate, but with a lot of good ideas and other stuff.

Good work, guys and gals!

sagegrouse
'I only wish we could have tried to implement the rule that "Students who attend the football game get an extra day on a paper or class assignment." I would have heard the faculty howls all the way out in Colorado' :p

[Cell-R]

Oh we will push it. Just before the point where a DBR thread pops up about it... :D

But seriously,
I go out and support Duke basketball no matter what because I love it. If we were unranked and pulled an 0-35 for 4 years in a row, I would still be out there busting my behind for my classmates. In my short time here at Duke, I've done so for our football team (minus Saturday). I'm just saying that some students aren't like that, and that sucks.

On attendance,
T-shirts and free food will almost certainly bring up attendance. I'm poor. I run out of food point too easily (side note: seriously, how come no one else I know has food point problems? I'm freaking scrawny!) And just get people to convince their friends to go to the game. Figure each person gets 3-5 friends who would normally be sitting in their dorm and says, "hey, lets go to the football game!" that's the way I do it.

DukeBsbll14: How have we not met yet? Haha, I share the exact same sentiments as you and might need someone to go to the football game with this Saturday.

I live in Wilson by the way.

[DevilHorns]

Oh we will push it. Just before the point where a DBR thread pops up about it... :D

But seriously,
I go out and support Duke basketball no matter what because I love it. If we were unranked and pulled an 0-35 for 4 years in a row, I would still be out there busting my behind for my classmates. In my short time here at Duke, I've done so for our football team (minus Saturday). I'm just saying that some students aren't like that, and that sucks.

On attendance,
T-shirts and free food will almost certainly bring up attendance. I'm poor. I run out of food point too easily (side note: seriously, how come no one else I know has food point problems? I'm freaking scrawny!) And just get people to convince their friends to go to the game. Figure each person gets 3-5 friends who would normally be sitting in their dorm and says, "hey, lets go to the football game!" that's the way I do it.

You need to get a girlfriend and "borrow" some of those food points. That's what I did. :cool: (nah she always had some left over at the end of the semester and I always ran out).

I applaud the administration for taking swift action in excising the old system of tailgate. It's time for a new tradition!

[dukebsbll14]

DukeBsbll14: How have we not met yet? Haha, I share the exact same sentiments as you and might need someone to go to the football game with this Saturday.

I live in Wilson by the way.

Hmm... I seem to remember walking by that dorm at 4 in the morning waiting for someone to drive us over to Cameron for bball tickets? Oh wait that was you. I'm in GA.

PS: Chem studying fail.

[Cell-R]

Hmm... I seem to remember walking by that dorm at 4 in the morning waiting for someone to drive us over to Cameron for bball tickets? Oh wait that was you. I'm in GA.

PS: Chem studying fail.

Bahahahahahaha. I knew that. Got you mixed up with duke2014.

Oh and heck yeah. I'll be studying all night tomorrow though.

[uh_no]

Someone else posted that tailgate should be contingent on student turnout the previous game...I think that is a great idea (although the logistics of canceling it on short notice might be an issue). Go ahead and cancel it for Boston College so they know this is for real, and then next year implement this policy right off the bat. If tailgate is as much fun as people claim it should be worth "suffering" through a few hours of football to enjoy the tailgate beforehand.

Also, thanks for taking the initiative and trying to get good ideas out to people that can make the changes...keep up the good work!

the issue now isn't about attendance, its about a teenager that could have died Saturday....liability trumps all else, and tailgate will not return in its past form again

[OldPhiKap]

I run out of food point too easily (side note: seriously, how come no one else I know has food point problems? I'm freaking scrawny!)

I was a student when they first introduced the point cards. I was fine, until Uncle Harry's started delivering pizza and selling beer on points. That's when I kind of got tapped out, if you know what I mean . . . .

Not sure they do either of those things these days, though. Is the Blue and White Room still open, BTW?

Enjoy these days -- they're the ones you will remember.

[loran16]

Reading a comment on the article and on twitter should explain to you what I was talking about:


LMo's insinuation that Tailgate is an embarrassment because it isn't associated with football is simply offensive. As a member of the Class of 2009, if you want to have a conversation about Duke Football and embarrassment, I will talk your ear off, but Tailgate isn't part of that convo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Blue_Devils_football#Recent_season_records

Our commitment to Tailgate during that contemporary "athletic program" is not the slightest bit embarrassing, it is a testament to the perseverance of our school spirit...and our mutual appreciation of beer and "Shout."

Now he was my class, so he should've seen Cut change the team to 4-8. Yet he still has this opinion of the football teams. So do many students.

And he thinks Tailgate is a good part of the culture. You get the point.

[Devil07]

Although I'm far from an old alum, I must admit that I'm glad to see the administration taking action. I was down a few weeks ago at the Miami game, and it is amazing to see what "tailgate" has become in just the few years since my freshman year ('03). Tailgates then were fun but nothing like the spectacle they have become. I saw the change during my four years and it has apparently gotten even more absurd since I graduated. I used to love to tailgate as a student, but being back there I have to admit that it was embarrassing.

The fact is that tailgate as it is today really only became like this within the past 5 years or so. This is no long-standing, revered tradition. There should be an outlet for students to get together and there were a lot of good things about tailgate believe it or not. Duke can have somewhat of a fragmented social scene, and tailgate was one of the few times when all the fraternities and some of the selective living groups were in one space interacting. While those in the non-greek scene may not see that as a benefit, I know that many of us who were in fraternities appreciated having a venue for all of the different factions of the Duke social scene to have fun together.

Tailgate doesn't have to be a beer-soaked rave in order for that to happen. All you need to do is look at any number of southern schools that have great tailgates without the absurdity that was happening in the Blue Zone. I'm glad that the administration stepped in, but I do hope that they stick true to their word and work with the students to find some sort of replacement for next year that keeps with the spirit of bringing students together to have fun. Tailgates are a great opportunity to unite a campus, and I hope that students work with the administration to create something that's fun but also that represents Duke in a positive light.

[El_Diablo]

A Facebook page was created less than two hours ago, and it already has 726 confirmed guests. This is not going to end well...

Details:

Main Quad Throwdown
Saturday, November 13 at 9:00am - November 14 at 2:00am
Tailgate broadens its horizons...

[CameronBornAndBred]

Over the spring, we will work with students, Athletics and many others to develop a new form of football game day celebration....one that will support our student athletes, be safe and healthy, and showcase the pride of "Dear Old Duke". We will invite your ideas and suggestions and be prepared to celebrate the fall 2011 season with the class and spirit for which Duke is known.

This is my favorite part of the letter. And also I have another person to add to my email list, someone who is actively looking for ideas. The time to talk is while someone is listening.

[dukebsbll14]

I was a student when they first introduced the point cards. I was fine, until Uncle Harry's started delivering pizza and selling beer on points. That's when I kind of got tapped out, if you know what I mean . . . .

Not sure they do either of those things these days, though. Is the Blue and White Room still open, BTW?

Enjoy these days -- they're the ones you will remember.

Blue and White Room? Dangit, I don't really know the stuff on Central that well...yet. Blech on the MOP site the link to Uncle Harry's says "their service is no longer available," but gives you an address of their store. And I'm assuming they would ID check for deliveries including things like that..pssst don't tell my RA.

[Dukeface88]

A Facebook page was created less than two hours ago, and it already has 726 confirmed guests. This is not going to end well...

Details:

Meh, they've broken up student gatherings before (thinking about the unsanctioned bonfire after we won at UNC my sophomore year that was ended via fire hose).

I'm really hoping the administration sticks with this, unpopular as it may be.

[Acymetric]

A Facebook page was created less than two hours ago, and it already has 726 confirmed guests. This is not going to end well...

Details:

It would be hard to stop people from congregating, I suppose, but it would be beyond easy to stop anyone bringing in kegs or large amounts of alcohol unless everyone converges on the place all at once. If I were a student (oh wait, I am) I would most certainly not risk trying to pull this over on the University. Sometimes fighting "the man" just isn't a good idea, and that's ignoring the fact that in this case the man is right.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Meh, they've broken up student gatherings before (thinking about the unsanctioned bonfire after we won at UNC my sophomore year that was ended via fire hose).

I'm really hoping the administration sticks with this, unpopular as it may be.
Given the incident that prompted it (supposedly the 14 year old brother of a student got drunk and was left behind passed out in a port-a-potty. He was taken away by EMTs) I don't think they will bend. Unfortunately it took such an incident as that instead of the lack of students in the stands to end it.

[Kimist]

Every era reflects that generation's own ideas about what's convenient and what's not.

I lived on East Campus for four years and had Saturday classes mostly on West. Back then we had to return in order eat lunch in the East Union, go back to the dorm to change to a suit or other dressy outfit and be picked up by our dates from West. Most students rode the campus buses because there were fewer cars on campus. (Prior to my freshman year, students paid to ride the campus buses.) All of this was accomplished by 2P when most football games began. This is not the "I walked four miles in the snow to get to school" speech. This is fact regarding what students in a different era did to get to the football games.

....

I had been wanting to post some similar thoughts.

While I'm not what I consider a Cameron Crusty (yet) I do have some years on me. I attended Duke football games as a middle schooler, high schooler, and later as a Duke student. I remember full stadiums, parades, living group displays for homecoming, "Carolina weekend", and the like. (Dare I even mention "Joe College" ???)

The first football game I attended as a Duke student was, like all other games, mid-day. I remember wearing a coat/tie, and my date was dressed to the nines. Yes, that was a common practice! Both of us nearly had a heat stroke sitting in the stadium in early September, periodically picking splinters from our butts. The student section was always packed, and IIRC there was even a fence separating the student section from the adjacent seats.

Yes, it WAS a different era, and there is no way to compare the late 60's to the current time. The world has changed greatly in many ways. But what might be important to this discussion is that going to the football games then was as much an "obligation" and/or social event versus anything else. And, yes, most of us even had Saturday morning classes to attend first! I also remember when the Devils won/loss numbers started going southward (was it Coach Tom Harp??) that some clever students even suggested "Blue Tunas" might be a more appropriate nickname.

A Duke student has serious time and academic demands, but likewise a Duke student should be able to manage those issues well enough to perhaps show some support for the football team. The current players ARE making significant progress, and IMHO deserve some respect and encouragement from the students for their improvements over the last two seasons. Getting to Wally Wade cannot realistically be seen as a difficult challenge to anyone.

As I mentioned earlier, there is a mindset that needs to be readjusted. Mix in some support with reasonable expectations, and get your behinds to the football stadium.

Sorry to get carried away, but at least that is my 2¢ worth.

k

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Why not re-interpret the word "tailgate" and have the gathering, or something like it, after the game... you know, at the tail end?

I understand many students' desire to blow off steam and that Tailgate has become an outlet for this. Back in my day, there were plenty of pre-game social gatherings to ensure we were properly "prepared" for the game. Ah, but we went. And there certianly were plenty of other evening gatherings - keggers, section parties progressives, late nite with the Betas, etc., to support our need to blow off steam. (At least until junior year when all that stuff totally lost it's appeal.)

That Tailgate has become what it has is unfortunate on many levels. In addition to how gross, dangerous and embarassing it is ("Daddy, what's that smell? And why are all these people acting funny and dressed like Halloween?"), it seems to me to be nothing more than a big hand flipping off the team. Yeah, we dragged our butts out of bed to show up early for a "pre-game" party, but instead of showing up, we're gonna get s###faced and pass out.

So, go ahead, get dressed up in your best latex outfits and tutus. Go to the game and show some support. Then go party. Hey, at least you get to sleep in...

[loran16]

In reality....at least for the BC game, this probably won't help. Given the large support of the main campus replacement for tailgate that'll last for about an hour at most, it should be pretty clear to you guys by now that the students believe that tailgate is teh cultural thing to do....and not football.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

In reality....at least for the BC game, this probably won't help. Given the large support of the main campus replacement for tailgate that'll last for about an hour at most, it should be pretty clear to you guys by now that the students believe that tailgate is teh cultural thing to do....and not football.

To clarify, I was not necessarily offering a suggestion for this weekend. I was making a general suggestion as to how this might be approched in the future.

[cf-62]

Well I AM a "Cameron Crusty." It's ridiculous for anybody associated with our university to even BEGIN to believe that alumni from the 80s and 90s somehow had less academic and social demands than the current set living in Gothic Wonderland.

The student turnout for Saturday's game should be a flat-out embarrassment to the student leadership at our school. Tailgate? Good riddance! The goal was to give the students an incentive to come to football games.

Well, they never did.

So now they can do what we used to do - sit in groups in their dorms and - I like how rosenrosen put it - prepare for the game.

Look, I seriously don't expect any additional students to come to football the rest of the year. Beating BC is a stretch (though beating Navy and UVA were, too), and if they were too apathetic to walk 200 yards from tailgate, then they won't have the character or discipline to actually get up and walk across campus without the promise of getting tanked.

Then we've got Carolina over Thanksgiving. If we want to fill the student section, we should incorporate something like "3 people per student ID" thing - allowing local students to bring parents or friends to the game.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing students at football games next year. Maybe I'm wrong and this year's kids will show some intestinal fortitude like their classmates on the football field.

[Jderf]

I don't know if any of you have ever been to the Duke Student "Tailgates," but I can tell you that it was one of the most depraved events you could ever possibly go to, Duke-related or otherwise. Basically, the entire student body dresses up in halloween costumes in the blue zone and drinks absurd (and I really can't stress the word "absurd" enough) amounts of beer at 9:00 in the morning. It appears the university has finally done the responsible thing and cancelled the "tradition." It's too bad they had to wait for this to happen: A 14 year-old kid was found passed-out in a port-a-potty with alcohol poisoning. He was fine in the end (had to get his stomach pumped), but obviously this is just terrible, terrible stuff.

Here's the email from Larry Moneta to the student body:

Dear students,

Last Saturday, many of us enjoyed a terrific, hard fought victory over Virginia in Wallace Wade Stadium. I want to acknowledge the tremendous effort of our team and wish more students could have been on hand to celebrate this win. Unfortunately, the positive experience in Wallace Wade was dampened by an incident in tailgate...an incident involving a teenage youth which easily could have been tragic.

This incident has vividly revealed that tailgate as is practiced at Duke must come to an end. It has long lost its value as a pre-football, spirit building activity and has become increasingly dangerous in every iteration. Thus, there will be no student 'tailgate' this Saturday in advance of the game against Boston College.

Over the spring, we will work with students, Athletics and many others to develop a new form of football game day celebration....one that will support our student athletes, be safe and healthy, and showcase the pride of "Dear Old Duke." We will invite your ideas and suggestions and be prepared to celebrate the fall 2011 season with the class and spirit for which Duke is known.

But, before we focus on next year, we have critical games ahead and need your full support of our team. I really hope that you'll all turn out and cheer on the team to a win over Boston College. With the UNC game over Thanksgiving weekend, this will be the last time this year for most of you to show your support. Please join us in Wallace Wade this Saturday!

Larry Moneta
Vice President for Student Affairs

(The email only alludes to the event, but the DSG president lives next door to me, so I heard about it. Not sure if it will be in the Chronicle.)

[CEF1959]

Kids walking across campus to get drunk together before a football game isn't tailgaiting anyway. It's just kids walking across campus to get drunk together before a football game.

[PallasAthena]

The administration has had enough:

http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/11/09/791577/duke-suspends-tailgating.html

[DukieInKansas]

Stupid question from someone that attended Duke pre-pre-tailgating: How did they manage the alcohol/age issue? I know, underage people drink all the time but if this was a University sponsored event it should be limited. Isn't the drinking age 21?

I admit I was on campus when beer was sold on campus as the age was 18 for beer and wine. I even remember going to some games alone (fair weather fans wouldn't go in the rain) - but not for long once you were in the stadium.

Does anyone else remember the House P float before each game. Various dead mascots from the opposing teams would be carried into WW and around the track before entering the student section. Each float was, amazingly enough, just big enough to cover a keg. I'm sure that was just a coincidence. ;)

[Jderf]

Stupid question from someone that attended Duke pre-pre-tailgating: How did they manage the alcohol/age issue? I know, underage people drink all the time but if this was a University sponsored event it should be limited. Isn't the drinking age 21?

How did they manage the issue? They didn't. I'm really shocked that it took them this long to shut it down. I guess it was just so popular with the students that they needed to wait for something "bad" to happen before they could close it down without a fuss. Unfortunate, really.

[DukeUsul]

How did they manage the issue? They didn't. I'm really shocked that it took them this long to shut it down. I guess it was just so popular with the students that they needed to wait for something "bad" to happen before they could close it down without a fuss. Unfortunate, really.

And even though there's been an incident, there will still be a fuss.

[SharkD]

The comments on the Chronicle article (http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/administrators-cancel-tailgate-calling-it-embarrassment) are amusing and depressing:

http://www.dukechronicle.com/node/153620/talk

Apparently, some Duke students feel that dressing in a spandex leotard in 35° weather to go binge drinking and then getting hammered, projectile vomiting all of your classmates and then getting hammered again, before stumbling back to the dorms to either pass out, or have a drunken hook-up is a "community building exercise" and the "primary reason" that they chose Duke.

And it turns out, that, because I'm inclined to tailgate in the Iron Duke parking lot, over a grill full of brats and a couple of quality bottles of beer, I'm "triple [the] age" of the average Duke student (Duke is admitting 10 year-olds?) and add "50lbs to my gut" every weekend. (I know I'm overweight, but someone should have told me before I really let myself go and packed on 250lbs so far this fall.)

There is a great deal of rending of clothes, gnashing of teeth and threats to "rage" in the halls. All because the administration took away the sanctioned drunken stupidity. :rolleyes: The most insightful comment so far: "LOUD NOISES!" (I love... lamp.)

Tell you what, Duke students: if you want to tailgate, you're welcome to come visit the B-5 lot and ask for SharkD (and I'm sure that the BrunchGate tent is more than happy to welcome you, too). Assuming you're of legal age, you're happy to partake of my beer, burgers and bratwursts.

---

Oh, and the article (http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/administrators-cancel-tailgate-calling-it-embarrassment) is enough to make you want to bang your head on your desk, as well:


Seniors were looking forward to the last Tailgate this weekend, senior Catherine Cordeiro said.

“I think it’s kind of harsh of [the administration] to not give us a last hurrah,” Cordeiro said. “I feel like the administration has been trying to get rid of Tailgate for some time. I would say that Tailgate is one of the primary reasons why I came to Duke, and I think it’s a major part of what makes the Duke social scene so unique.”

I never knew that excessive drinking during undergraduate study is an experience unique to Duke.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I'm disappointed in the student's reaction to this. An underage (under 18 in fact) brother of a student is left behind passed out in a portapotty, only to be found by security and then sent off with a medical team, and the response to the TG cancellation is a finger flip to the administration and a call to have their own TG on the quad. Instead of realizing there is a problem, they want to fight back...still with no intention of going to the football game of course. It's disheartening to read the student comments in the the Chronicle article and on the Facebook page they've created. Almost 1300 students have posted they will attend the unsanctioned tailgate, but not even 50 can make their way to a football game..very sad.
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=175900589094131

http://dukechronicle.com/node/153620/talk

http://dukechronicle.com/article/administrators-cancel-tailgate-calling-it-embarrassment

[pbc2]

I am disappointed, but not surprised at the student reaction to this. Student tailgate itself was a distraction from football, and now this feud between the students and the administration will become a bigger distraction.

I hope that students and fans will put this behind them and support our football team. The coaches and players are working their tails off to bring Duke a winning football program. The students and fans need to do the same. Show up on Saturday and be loud.

If you don't have a ticket, buy one here: http://bit.ly/9UEPwP

[Jderf]

The comments on the Chronicle article (http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/administrators-cancel-tailgate-calling-it-embarrassment) are amusing and depressing:

http://www.dukechronicle.com/node/153620/talk

This one is great:


Administrators, if you have a problem with Tailgate (and we know you do), MAN UP. Address it for what it is - shut it down because it's too awesome, not because some idiot thought his 14 year old brother should be out there shotgunning. Don't you think you're overreacting? Obviously, you should just expel the student who got his little brother wasted and left him in a porta-a-potty. Be reasonable.

Come on, people. Let's "be reasonable."

[CameronBornAndBred]

If you don't have a ticket, buy one here: http://bit.ly/9UEPwP
While I love buying through the Duke office, I'd rather see them bought off of Stubhub right now. Tickets are literally $1 thanks to Alabama fans, and they've already paid their full money to Duke. Let's get the seats that were once red turned blue again.
http://www.stubhub.com/duke-football-tickets/duke-vs-boston-college-11-13-2010-933930/

[SharkD]

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=175900589094131

Thanks for that link, I hadn't seen it.

I'm glad that 229 other people aren't attending, but I'm disappointed to see that a bunch of students that I'm responsible for, in one way or another, are amongst the 1,300 who've said that they are.

[Scorp4me]

I made a suggestion earlier that the students be given up on. Someone responded that the students should no more be given up on than the football team. I have to agree. But just like getting better recruits, we need better students. So I say, give up on the current students. Like the football team we need a better culture of winning, we need to change things. I advocated moving tailgate, but it's obvious the administration is serious about change, not just interested in hiding in. I applaud them.

In addition I applaud the many who commented on the article linked on the front page. I was impressed to see many undergrads who were embarrassed by the event. There were equal comments claiming what a mistake, how they will take to the streets, yada, yada, yada, but most were by the same posters. And I loved the one that said to the 09 alum who would withhold donations that they would double it, lol.

It's not like tailgate is the reason people come to Duke. Heck, one student said he came "inspite" of tailgate. Much like the football team, our student body needs a culture of winning. There will be an outcry this weekend of course, but then they leave (smart to do it so late in the year). And next hopefully the noise from the stands will be a bit louder. Given a year or two and it'll be just a few people sitting in their dorms mumbling to themselves.

[BD80]

... Does anyone else remember the House P float before each game. Various dead mascots from the opposing teams would be carried into WW and around the track before entering the student section. Each float was, amazingly enough, just big enough to cover a keg. I'm sure that was just a coincidence. ;)

It devolved into a pig tail and a painted face on the keg.

[Farlan]

As a long-time Duke football fan, I am very happy to hear that Tailgate has ended. It was embarrassing to see a bunch of drunk students dressed like idiots walking away from the stadium 15 minutes before the game started. Student attendance at the UVA game could not have been worse so we will not be missing anything for BC. Best suggestions I have read in this thread are to give students who enter Wallace Wade free food and tshirts. How about free food in the first half and free tshirts in the second half so that they will stick around awhile. Again, if they don’t show up it’s no worse than what we have seen at earlier games. How about giving free tickets to Durham junior and senior high school students to fill up the student section?

[phaedrus]

The sanctimony exhibited in this thread is out of control. While I am far from a full-throated supporter of student drinking culture or tailgate (though I readily admit to enjoying tailgate from time to time), I am disappointed to read such divisive and judgmental criticism levied against a large proportion of Duke students, many of whom also play an important role in making Cameron such a unique place to watch and play basketball, not to mention the countless other achievements and attributes of Duke students that make me proud to be an alum.

I stand by the foregoing regardless of the evident truth that tailgate needed to end or be reformed. There is a difference between critiquing tailgate as an event and expressing distaste toward a broad swath of the Duke student body.

[DevilWearsPrada]

Has anyone read were there are disciplinary infractions on the Undergrad that brought their young (high school age sibling) to the game, and fed him to the wolves, so to speak. I would think the young teen, probably didn't have much to eat for breakfast, and was given too much beer, or playing beer pong, and probably shots.

I can't even imagine, bringing a minor (let alone your younger sibling) to an event. And not babysitting (or at least keeping a watch on them)... and letting the child get hammered and then passed out in the port-a-potty. That is disgusting, irresponsible and something I can't comprehend. What if that child would have died, in that portable john?

Why isn't the Undergrad suspended or are they? The parents or guardians of the children, should jerk a knot into the Duke student. Also, did the parents not realize their Duke undergrad child would possibly endanger their younger child? What's the discipline for the Duke student that has NO COMMON SENSE?

It turns my stomach to know how stupid this DUKE STUDENT was! And now, because of this, the entire Blue Zone tailgate is cancelled for the entire student body.


In my days, I never experienced TAILGATE like the Duke students do today. The Tailgate, was to eat and drink and socialize and discuss the game. And then go to the GAME!!!!

SUSPEND the STUDENT that was an idiot!!!!

[DevilWearsPrada]

As a long-time Duke football fan, I am very happy to hear that Tailgate has ended. It was embarrassing to see a bunch of drunk students dressed like idiots walking away from the stadium 15 minutes before the game started. Student attendance at the UVA game could not have been worse so we will not be missing anything for BC. Best suggestions I have read in this thread are to give students who enter Wallace Wade free food and tshirts. How about free food in the first half and free tshirts in the second half so that they will stick around awhile. Again, if they don’t show up it’s no worse than what we have seen at earlier games. How about giving free tickets to Durham junior and senior high school students to fill up the student section?

THATS a GREAT IDEA!!!! Give the student seats to the local High School students!!! So many would never be able to attend A Duke game or ACC game!!! I am sure buses could be arranged to bring the students in!! And give them a tshirt and pompoms in the seat or Towel........... Those kids will cheer and be thankful. Give them a FOOD CARD with points to use at the game!!! They want be drunk or passed out in a Port-a-potty!!!

LETS just get STUDENTS in the Student Section. If Duke students, want to tailgate .......... do your thang!!! You never walked across the parking lot into Wallace Wade to see one of the best games ever!!!! Put local HIGH SCHOOL students in the section!!!

DO the TAKE AWAY.......... take something away from them. Supply and Demand theory.

There are many local students that would love to be at a Football game!!

[gumbomoop]

I don't know if any of you have ever been to the Duke Student "Tailgates," but I can tell you that it was one of the most depraved events you could ever possibly go to....

I have myself, on other campuses, observed the aftermath of such events, and I wouldn't disagree with Jderf's description.



It's disheartening to read the student comments in the the Chronicle article and on the Facebook page they've created. Almost 1300 students have posted they will attend the unsanctioned tailgate, but not even 50 can make their way to a football game..very sad.
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=175900589094131

http://dukechronicle.com/node/153620/talk

http://dukechronicle.com/article/administrators-cancel-tailgate-calling-it-embarrassment

This sort of disheartening, alcohol-consumption-related phenomenon is a nationwide problem on many college campuses. A national disgrace, probably. But more interesting, to me, is its relation to a broader phenomenon of "postponed maturity" or ["extended youth"??] among young folks these days. There are generational studies out there on the subject of immature 20-somethings [which, I do understand, does not apply to all young men and women 18-29].

My own half-baked summary of this intriguing generation-gap is this: beginning several decades ago, a profound shift occurred, among teenagers, toward the looming prospect of adulthood. Before this shift, which must have occurred very gradually over 25-30 years, teenagers understood that by age 20 or so, they must begin practicing to become adults. But post-shift, teenagers - and, significantly, especially upper-middle-class students - no longer "understood" this, and in fact received, with great relief and joy, all sorts of cultural messages that the onset of adulthood should be delayed for as long as possible. So for the last 10-20 years, many young people - repeat: especially upper-middle-class students - have had little interest in practicing stuffy values such as responsibility.

[Bluedog]

But more interesting, to me, is its relation to a broader phenomenon of "postponed maturity" or ["extended youth"??] among young folks these days. There are generational studies out there on the subject of immature 20-somethings [which, I do understand, does not apply to all young men and women 18-29].

My own half-baked summary of this intriguing generation-gap is this: beginning several decades ago, a profound shift occurred, among teenagers, toward the looming prospect of adulthood. Before this shift, which must have occurred very gradually over 25-30 years, teenagers understood that by age 20 or so, they must begin practicing to become adults. But post-shift, teenagers - and, significantly, especially upper-middle-class students - no longer "understood" this, and in fact received, with great relief and joy, all sorts of cultural messages that the onset of adulthood should be delayed for as long as possible. So for the last 10-20 years, many young people - repeat: especially upper-middle-class students - have had little interest in practicing stuffy values such as responsibility.

Expanding on what phaedrus said above, not only is this thread harshly labeling the entire Duke student body, but now we're talking about how the current generation is immature and of control? Yeah, I'm sure those of you who went to college in the 60s took far less drugs than students now. :confused: And those in the 70s didn't have a sexual revolution or anything. And those who went when drinking beer/wine was legal at 18 never got drunk. Come on people. This happens with EVERY generation. The people who were born in the 20s/30s thought those born in the 50s were out of control in their teen years. And, on and on.

I think it's time for me to stand up for my generation. This generation of young people has given more time to community service than any other in history. The current crop of Duke students is more accomplished than any in its history. They all worked extremely hard to gain admission in to one of the most selective institutions in the nation, one that has gotten considerably more competitive to get into in the past decade. They come from a wide array of backgrounds and have diverse interests, and take leadership roles in a large array of projects that make a difference in the community. By and large, Duke students are intelligent, responsible, and motivated individuals who are primed for success.

Having said all that, I was never a huge fan of tailgate (speaking of the event, not the students). I was always a fan of the students. I graduated in 2007 and went to a whopping one tailgate during my four years (thus illustrating my lack of desire to attend), as well as two tailgates after I graduated simply to see other people I know. While the general concept behind having a party that unites the entire student body for a single purpose is a good one, the implementation of it was poor and did create a potentially unsafe atmosphere.

In addition, going back the psychological explanations above, Jeffrey Arnett posited in 2000 that in developing nations early to mid 20s are in "emerging adulthood." They are not financially responsible for themselves yet and still have identity exploration to conduct. But this current generation isn't just a bunch of irresponsible, negligent children. We hear this same explanation every generation. The current crop of Duke students is admirable, hardworking, intelligent, and motivated; just the best display of these attributes is not brought out in the event currently known as tailgate. But if you talk to average Duke students these days, you will come away impressed.

[ncexnyc]

A classic example of youth vs. the establisment, only in my day it was over the Vietnam War, nowadays it's over tailgating. Throw up the barricades and seize the admin building.

I guess things have changed quite a bit since I was a teen. Underage drinking wasn't about seeing if you could drink yourself into oblivion. For those of you who have voiced displeasure over tailgating, I hope you are doing so, because of your concern for the students involved, not just because it makes the University look bad. Just remember, that banning tailgating doesn't solve the problem, it just pushes underage drinking into the shadows.

[Jderf]

People, this is not a generational issue. The problem is with tailgate.

[Scorp4me]

As someone mentioned get students in the student section. If not Duke students then high school students I believe they said. Well, it'd only take a few years before that solution would take care of itself. As said before, I think the freshman are already more involved with the football team thanks to Cut. The Seniors will soon be graduating. That's half the students right there. I'm simplifying, but the point is in a year or two no one will be complaining and hopefully the football team will be winning. Kudos to the administration for continuing to put for a winning culture for football.

[PaIronDuke]

Well I AM a "Cameron Crusty." It's ridiculous for anybody associated with our university to even BEGIN to believe that alumni from the 80s and 90s somehow had less academic and social demands than the current set living in Gothic Wonderland.

The student turnout for Saturday's game should be a flat-out embarrassment to the student leadership at our school. Tailgate? Good riddance! The goal was to give the students an incentive to come to football games.

Well, they never did.

So now they can do what we used to do - sit in groups in their dorms and - I like how rosenrosen put it - prepare for the game.

Look, I seriously don't expect any additional students to come to football the rest of the year. Beating BC is a stretch (though beating Navy and UVA were, too), and if they were too apathetic to walk 200 yards from tailgate, then they won't have the character or discipline to actually get up and walk across campus without the promise of getting tanked.

Then we've got Carolina over Thanksgiving. If we want to fill the student section, we should incorporate something like "3 people per student ID" thing - allowing local students to bring parents or friends to the game.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing students at football games next year. Maybe I'm wrong and this year's kids will show some intestinal fortitude like their classmates on the football field.

Hard to believe, I know, but I was going to Duke football games as a student in the decade before Kimist and this poster. Dispensing with all the nostalgia, it was one of the best memories I have-sans tailgaiting, but with a pre-game beer or two, and maybe a flask-and the current group are letting a small percentage of the student body cause the mellowness of the experience to be forfeited.

Our experience then was more like that at Notre Dame now-cheering, honest enthusiasm for the team,etc.-and I can only imagine how Coach Cut, the team, the band, etc. must feel to survey the rowdiest of the tailgating group now..

i still live and die with the Blue Devils on Saturdays and basketball nights, but hearing of this just makes me feel sorta sad.

Grow up, guys and gals, and don't forfeit one of the better experiences of your four years on a campus we all dearly love......

[uh_no]

As someone mentioned get students in the student section. If not Duke students then high school students I believe they said. Well, it'd only take a few years before that solution would take care of itself. As said before, I think the freshman are already more involved with the football team thanks to Cut. The Seniors will soon be graduating. That's half the students right there. I'm simplifying, but the point is in a year or two no one will be complaining and hopefully the football team will be winning. Kudos to the administration for continuing to put for a winning culture for football.

by that logic, the student attendance should have been increasing linearly the past 3 years...and that's clearly not the case

[ncexnyc]

I believe I mentioned seizing Allen Building about 125 (or so) posts ago! :cool:

LOL, and someone said it wasn't a generational thing.;)

[PumpkinFunk]

Our experience then was more like that at Notre Dame now-cheering, honest enthusiasm for the team,etc.-and I can only imagine how Coach Cut, the team, the band, etc. must feel to survey the rowdiest of the tailgating group now..

The perspective of DUMB (and the cheerleaders) on the cancellation of Tailgate and the outrage from the students is very, very different from that of the Tailgaters. I can't speak for either group as a whole, but a fair number of people I know have really expressed frustration at the response, especially the fact that most outraged at its cancellation are ignoring the quote from Dr. Moneta about how Tailgate is unrelated to football. Our experience on Saturday shows that is 100% the case - thousands of students show for Tailgate, and maybe 100 show for the game. It's embarrassing to us, embarrassing to the school, and just a huge downer to be at a great game with no student support. I've been to away football games, in my 4 years, at UNC, NC State, Wake, Georgia Tech, Virginia, Navy, and Virginia Tech, and at all of them, the students are loud and into it, and that is a huge boost to the whole gameday atmosphere. We don't have that, at all, and it's awful. The experience in Wally Wade is embarrassing and it has to be a deterrence to recruits and a huge slap in the face to Coach Cut and the team.

[DukieInKansas]

I know that not every student knows a football player, even in passing. However, if every student that does have a class or other acquaintance with any player would just come to support that player for one 4 hour stretch of time, what a difference it would make for what is basically the last home game for students this year. It seems like a pretty small sacrifice to make to support a person you know in passing.

If enough people from the same class come, it could even be a study group. :D


eta - or knows a band member or cheerleader.

[flyingdutchdevil]

This is not a "generational gap" phenomenon, nor is it an alcohol issue. If it was, then why do other schools have tailgates which lead to students attending games? Academically, Duke is one of the best schools in the country. Socially? We're like every other school. We like to have fun!

As a student who graduated a few years ago and attended both tailgate and football games, I can tell you that tailgates were often more fun. It wasn't the alcohol. It was the fact that students were enjoying themselves, being extremely social, happy to be up-and-about on a Saturday morning with or without a few beers (for the record, everyone doesn't get plastered. Yes - some do. But it's not the majority. The ones you notice are the inebriated, and I can assure you that's not everyone). Hell, my friends who didn't drink went to tailgate and didn't even go to the games! In all honesty, the games I went to (these were Roof games) weren't fun. They weren't social. They didn't put a smile on my face (and this isn't because I don't like football. I don't like lacrosse and the games that I went to were surprisingly fun).

It's a mentality issue, and it arises from all angles: the students, the athletic department, the school itself, the lack of a football culture, etc. This isn't a quick fix. It will take time. Have faith in the school, the students, and Cut.

Last note - I thought the decision to end tailgate was a smart move. Will it get students to the game this week? Nope. For the rest of the season? Nope. Next year? Yup. It will take time.

[Highlander]

WFNZ in Charlotte brought up Tailgate on their 6pm hour, and the hosts were pretty thoroughly trashing Duke and their inability to understand anything about Football culture in general, and for punishing the entire student body for the actions of one dumb student and her sibling. Anyway, they were obviously confusing "tailgating" with "Tailgate."

They will have the whole discussion available on a podcast for 11/9 sometime tomorrow. It was right at the top of hour 4.

http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/primetime-with-the-packman/id213163175

Full disclaimer - I'm the Duke guy who calls in. One glaring mistake I made was saying that Duke had a student body of 1,600 rather than 6,000. Was thinking about a single class rather than the student body as a whole. Considering my recent Zoubek/Newton brain block, that shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

[TheDevilMadeMeDoIt]

People, this is not a generational issue. The problem is with tailgate.

I am old Duke alum, but I place some of the blame for the whole problem with Duke's inconsistent treatment of underage drinking from my time in the 70's to today. When I was at Duke the partying began after the game. Then Nan came in and tried to drive drinking off campus. I always thought that was a bad idea. The kids were more likely to get killed trying to get back to campus. I didn't even know tailgate existed until this year(I live 650 miles from Duke and only started buying season tickets and trying to attend at least half the home games when Duke hired Cut). Evidently Duke went from forcing drinking off campus to encouraging, or at least aloowing students to get drunk on campus, in the middle of the day before the football games. College students are going to drink and I believe our country's alcohol prohibition on under 21 year olds encourages binge drinking. The school was correct to end tailgate. It should instead encourage the students to come to the game, and then party sensibly afterward. Have a keg party after the game. Yes, some will drink too much, but they will pay the price the next day.

[airowe]

At least one football player is happy about the cancellation: http://twitter.com/#!/a_kelly83/status/2054273391136768

Aren't these guys' opinions the only ones that should matter?

[Duvall]

At least one football player is happy about the cancellation: http://twitter.com/#!/a_kelly83/status/2054273391136768

Aren't these guys' opinions the only ones that should matter?

Not really, even if I agree with them on this.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Even the university is concerned about the confusement to the public (and rightly so), so they've placed this article on goduke.com.
http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?&ATCLID=205027932&DB_OEM_ID=4200



Duke University officials have cancelled a student "Tailgate" event prior to Saturday's home football game versus Boston College, but there will still be tailgating going on in the parking lots outside Wallace Wade Stadium.


I sent off my email tonight to as many people as I could find addresses for. Basically I just offered up the popular concern that as fans we'd appreciate seeing the students back in the stands with us, and some of our ideas to make that happen. I don't know if any of them will even read it, but I'm assuming some will. The cancellation of tailgate and the sad event behind it hopefully will have a silver lining in the long run. I see better days ahead for Wallace Wade stadium not only on the field but in the horseshoe as well.

[Devil07]

At least one football player is happy about the cancellation: http://twitter.com/#!/a_kelly83/status/2054273391136768

Aren't these guys' opinions the only ones that should matter?

I understand his frustration, but that being said, I don't particularly like seeing members of the football team calling a large chunk of the student population "irrelevant." Like I said, I completely understand why the team is no doubt frustrated by the lack of student support, but I just wish they'd keep that private rather than out for all to see. Saying publicly that the students don't matter isn't going to help with the attendance problem. I'm not meaning to criticize Austin, I just hate to see our players feel this way about the students. Deserved or not, it's not a pleasant thing to read.

[dcdevil2009]

At least one football player is happy about the cancellation: http://twitter.com/#!/a_kelly83/status/2054273391136768

Aren't these guys' opinions the only ones that should matter?

No, their opinion shouldn't matter any more or less than that of any other Duke student, including the tailgaters who he considers irrelevant. I understand that he would like his classmates to come out and support him on Saturdays, but insulting them and forcing them to go to games is probably not the best way to do it. Winning games and building a competitive program build tradition. I was a senior during Cut's first year and when football got off to its best start in years, people started leaving tailgate to go to games. Unfortunately, as the team lost more games, the optimism started to taper off and tailgate went back to being the main Saturday event.

I'm sorry if I come off as a bit defensive with this post, but I was a bit offended by this tweet and the implications that the Duke students who chose to spend their Saturday mornings at tailgate are somehow less important members of the University community than those who don't.

[blazindw]

I've wanted to respond to this thread for a long time, just haven't figured out quite what to say. As many of you who know me personally know, I think Tailgate was a complete embarrassment to the university and a direct insult to not only the football players and those on the team (like I was when I was in school) but also those fans that come week in and week out to support the team win or lose.

When I came to Duke, I didn't need a football team. I grew up a diehard Michigan fan. But you know what? I love college football. And, I didn't care that the first win we had as a team didn't occur till my junior year, I went to games week in and week out because I fell in love with my school and ALL its teams. I missed one football game in my 4 years (that game being due to a leadership retreat). I can say that I attended at least one sporting event for each varsity sport that they offer at Duke, even Women's Crew. As you all may know, I am a sports junkie, and I always wanted to show my support to my teams. I know others aren't as diehard as I am when it comes to sports, but most people don't just like basketball, but they'll enjoy a few sports.

Tailgate was never in its current form while I was there. In fact, Tailgate in its earliest form started my senior year, when kids would tailgate in the Blue Zone until kickoff and then relocate to the pool at the Belmont Apartments. They didn't dress up, they didn't throw cases of beer into the air. They just drank and left. And even then, I didn't want to be a part of it because tailgating is something that is supposed to get people pumped up for the football game that they're tailgating for. Some people say that Tailgate is not for football...it must be just a coincidence that they're only scheduled for Saturdays with home games.

Anyone who has played sports in high school, middle school, college, or at any level knows that it's important to have people in the stands supporting you. I played basketball in front of sold-out crowds in high school and even ran track in front of standing-room only crowds. I cannot tell you how much it motivated me to perform beyond my best, for our team to give absolutely everything we got. If people show that they care, the players will respond. It was ever-present during that sold-out Elon game, when the team came out fired up and the crowd never let up. On the other hand, if you look up in the stands and see no one there, your morale goes down...way down. I know players on the football team while I was a video assistant would lament at the lack of students that came to games. The team was playing for them! They wanted a football turnaround to spark the school's student body. That, in turn, helps interest in all sports...almost the mentality "if we're good at football, boy is the rest of the ACC in trouble in any sport we compete in."

The first Tailgate I ever went to was as an alum. I immediately knew 1) this was not my scene, and 2) that very few of these students would ever make it to the game. As someone posted, it's dishonest to use the excuse "I had a paper to write" or "I have homework to do" when you get blasted from 7am to kickoff and then go pass out for the rest of the day. And even if you're a student who does have some studying, you can bring a book! People bring books into Cameron and during halftime will pull it out and start reading...with more TV timeouts in football, there's plenty of time to do some reading and still be there to support your team.

I know that a few administrators have been embarrassed by the spectacle of Tailgate and of course it gives us a bad name when opposing fans see nothing but beer showers coming from it and then they go in the game and see that the students couldn't make it the 100 yards from Tailgate to the game. The culture has become throwing 30 cases of beer into the air is more important than a football game where your fellow students are participating on behalf of YOU, on behalf of US. I never liked it, and I hoped every season that Tailgate would be dismantled. It seems that it has been, but I regret that it took a kid almost dying for it to occur. Plus, it's become national news. And the students' reaction to it is awful in my opinion, and I'm never one to really criticize the students. However, I feel really strongly about this. National media are mocking you while you criticize the administration for taking away a "tradition" that is only 7 years old in its earliest form and 5 years old in its current out-of-control form.

People have been saying that with the team's struggles, that alone discourages students from attending the games. Sure, it's hard to watch our team sometimes. Yet, UVa has had a worse team than we have the past few seasons...their students come out for every game and fill the hill in the south endzone. At Miami, where they've had the worst 6 seasons in decades in football, half the student body comes to the games. NC State has had some terrible seasons in their recent past, and their students travel to every game. Why is that so hard for us? When students ask, "why should we," I counter with "why shouldn't you?" I'm not asking you to stay the whole game at this point...just show up. When the team runs out and sees the stands full of students, I guarantee you they will play with pride and passion...their effort will keep you there.

So, what kind of tailgating should we strive for? Michigan and Penn State have over 100,000 people tailgating each week in a field right next to the stadium...no beer is thrown in the air, people may dress in a particular color, but it's not out of control. Yet, people have fun, and it creates a fun, enthusiastic atmosphere. Ole Miss has The Grove, where kids dress up to tailgate in a sophisticated fashion and then go to the games in preppy clothes. I've always thought we should strive for something like this in K-Ville on Saturdays. I hope that each Saturday next fall, K-Ville, or wherever the reformed tailgate is set up, can morph into Cut-Ville where students come, tailgate responsibly and have a great time, and then move that school spirit over to Wallace Wade to support our football team.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I understand his frustration, but that being said, I don't particularly like seeing members of the football team calling a large chunk of the student population "irrelevant." Like I said, I completely understand why the team is no doubt frustrated by the lack of student support, but I just wish they'd keep that private rather than out for all to see. Saying publicly that the students don't matter isn't going to help with the attendance problem. I'm not meaning to criticize Austin, I just hate to see our players feel this way about the students. Deserved or not, it's not a pleasant thing to read.

Do you not see the irony in calling this out? Every saturday during home football games, a 1,000 or so students slap the football team in the face in a very public way by putting forth the effort they do to get up early, get sloppy drunk at a supposed pre-game gathering, and then simply walk/stumble away.

[Devil07]

Do you not see the irony in calling this out? Every saturday during home football games, a 1,000 or so students slap the football team in the face in a very public way by putting forth the effort they do to get up early, get sloppy drunk at a supposed pre-game gathering, and then simply walk/stumble away.

I think it was pretty clear that I wasn't trying to "call out" Austin or criticize his sentiment. Rather, I was pointing out that I find it sad to see members of the football team and the student body publicly squabbling. As I said, I think the football team is completely justified in being frustrated, but that doesn't mean I want to see players calling students irrelevant. It's a sad state of affairs, and I don't think there's anything wrong with saying so. I'd rather everyone stop blaming everyone else and just work towards finding a solution so that students can have fun and be part of the football atmosphere at the same time.

[gewwang]

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/college_football/video/8598050/#/vid8598050

Link to Cut's press conference today. From the 15 min - 20 min mark he is asked a few questions regarding the student support and cancellation of "Tailgate". Five minutes of pure class the way he refuses to be baited by the press trying to get some negativity out of him.

[ncexnyc]

Blazindw you wrote the following,"where your fellow students are participating on behalf of YOU, on behalf of US." Do you really believe that? I'm asking because we've had threads discussing hoops star jumping early to the NBA and a number of people have defended the players by saying this has been their life long dream. So that makes it sound as if playing for Duke was just a stepping stone.Aren't players who get a free ride to a university the stature of Duke actually playing for themselves?

[BattierD12]

I'm not a fan on these tweets from the football players and hope Cutcliffe addresses them during a team meeting. Do they really expect to attract students to the games if the players keep calling them irrelevant and the worst fans in D1 football?

Now with regards to student attendance:

Elon had a great student turnout. Season began with a promising start, students were genuinely excited, and we had a good game.

Alabama was packed at the beginning. But do you really expect fans to stay after halftime when we're down 30 or something and are completely incapable of stopping Alabama's offense?

Army had a good showing too, as it was Homecoming. But the football team laid a giant egg against ARMY. Students that were still excited for the team are getting depressed just watching us give up play after play, and now we're dealing with a 1-4 team.

Those are three games, with tailgate beforehand, that had a good student turnout. Let's shift forward to this past weekend. Duke is 2-6. We had a good game against Navy the previous week, but people have already lost faith based on the overall season. Tailgate, as many of you may not have expected, was pretty empty. There were 100-200 students at most. So the excuse that Duke students go to tailgate and not to games is invalid for the Virginia, which had a low turnout. The weather was miserable, students have midterms coming, but most importantly, there is still minimal faith in this team.

I attended the first three games of the season, and my hopes got diminished over the course of the season. I regret missing the game against Virginia, but my mentality was synonymous with most other Duke students: it's still tough to go to a game and hope for a win, but come out empty handed and maybe a little down for the rest of the day. However, student interest was there for attending the BC game because our team is playing well again. Unfortunately, the tailgate cancellations may cause some students to skip out on the game as a revolt. If Duke wins against BC and GT, I'll probably end up staying over thanksgiving break for the UNC game. I've never done that before.

So, take it from me, a senior at Duke. If we show we can win, students will attend games. If we lay eggs like at the beginning of the season, students will not want to attend games. Until Duke becomes a fairly dependable team to win games, students will not come when times get rough, unlike other school's student populace.

[foxhunter07]

Coach Cut has great class and I really hope people do show up. However, even with the cancellation of Tailgate, I really don't see more people coming to games. The non-tail-gaters are generally students that are too preoccupied with the stress of being a Duke student sleeping on 5 hour days who need that sleep (especially the premeds and engineers) on Saturday morning, but who then have to keep working after they get up.

[loran16]

Blazindw you wrote the following,"where your fellow students are participating on behalf of YOU, on behalf of US." Do you really believe that? I'm asking because we've had threads discussing hoops star jumping early to the NBA and a number of people have defended the players by saying this has been their life long dream. So that makes it sound as if playing for Duke was just a stepping stone.Aren't players who get a free ride to a university the stature of Duke actually playing for themselves?

The answer is yes and yes. When players put on a team's jerseys, they play for what the Jersey stands for. That said, at the same time, they also play for themselves and their own enjoyment/career.

John Wall last year represented Kentucky, as did his 4 other early jumpers to the NBA. They played for the ideals of that school. Now they don't. But that doesn't make their earlier contributions not for their school.

(Basically, with one and dones, schools use them to benefit the school and the players use the school to benefit the players. It goes both ways)

[CameronBornAndBred]

Blazindw you wrote the following,"where your fellow students are participating on behalf of YOU, on behalf of US." Do you really believe that? I'm asking because we've had threads discussing hoops star jumping early to the NBA and a number of people have defended the players by saying this has been their life long dream. So that makes it sound as if playing for Duke was just a stepping stone.Aren't players who get a free ride to a university the stature of Duke actually playing for themselves?
In football? No! Every player at Duke could have gone to a school with a winning record, and none of these players did. They came because they found a school that fit them, and because they beleived in what the coaches told them. I think most of the football players do view Duke as a stepping stone though...you don't sign up unless you believe it will benefit you. To any school. I'm very happy the ones we have chose us.

[DevilHorns]

Coach Cut has great class and I really hope people do show up. However, even with the cancellation of Tailgate, I really don't see more people coming to games. The non-tail-gaters are generally students that are too preoccupied with the stress of being a Duke student sleeping on 5 hour days who need that sleep (especially the premeds and engineers) on Saturday morning, but who then have to keep working after they get up.

That may be true for engineers, but that's definitely not true for premeds. Most required premed courses at Duke have anywhere from 2-3 big exams a semester (including the final). That literally means only 1-2 weekends in the fall where it would be inadvisable to NOT study and go spend precious time in any other way.

If you're a fan, you can make time. I'm sure the engineers and premeds are represented very well in K-ville (well that may be because 50% of Duke is premed entering as freshmen...).

[foxhunter07]

Ha, if I told my parents that reason that you gave, they would think I'm crazy. Just because you only have 3 tests, doesn't mean that you stop studying once one is over. Learning is a continual process and if you have fun in undergraduate years you get to pay the price by plentiful rejections in grad school and med school

[CameronBornAndBred]

Ha, if I told my parents that reason that you gave, they would think I'm crazy. Just because you only have 3 tests, doesn't mean that you stop studying once one is over. Learning is a continual process and if you have fun in undergraduate years you get to pay the price by plentiful rejections in grad school and med school
My dad just retired from the university this last year, but still works with the med students as an advisor. He's been at Duke through his undergraduate years, med school years, employed by the school / hospital as a doctor, and never once missed a game as long as he was in town. I'm pretty sure if he were to advise the med students that he does, whether they should memorize everything they need to or go take a break and catch a game, he'd be sitting next to you on Saturday in the bleachers. Time management is a great skill to learn.

[blazindw]

Blazindw you wrote the following,"where your fellow students are participating on behalf of YOU, on behalf of US." Do you really believe that? I'm asking because we've had threads discussing hoops star jumping early to the NBA and a number of people have defended the players by saying this has been their life long dream. So that makes it sound as if playing for Duke was just a stepping stone.Aren't players who get a free ride to a university the stature of Duke actually playing for themselves?


The answer is yes and yes. When players put on a team's jerseys, they play for what the Jersey stands for. That said, at the same time, they also play for themselves and their own enjoyment/career.

John Wall last year represented Kentucky, as did his 4 other early jumpers to the NBA. They played for the ideals of that school. Now they don't. But that doesn't make their earlier contributions not for their school.

(Basically, with one and dones, schools use them to benefit the school and the players use the school to benefit the players. It goes both ways)

Yes, I truly believe that. I knew a lot of the football players very well, among other athletes, while I was at Duke. A lot of them got scholarship offers from other, more prominent, football schools. They came to Duke instead. Sure, part of it was what was best for them (playing time, get name noticed quicker, etc.). But, most of them also came because they wanted to help start the turnaround of Duke Football. They truly believed in the system, the school and they wanted to make it so that their fellow classmates would be proud to say that Duke indeed had a football team and they were making some noise. Did that happen while I was there? No...but all of them, when they put that Duke jersey on, knew they were going to fight tooth and nail for each other and for the pride of the school. They all "unpacked their bags," as Coach K likes to say about the basketball team, and they became invested in Duke.

When Duke succeeds, we all succeed. When Duke gets a black eye, we all get a black eye. These students that are so upset at Tailgate being canceled, they don't have to deal with the criticism of how they are perceived to the nation. We who go to work do or who wear our Duke shirts proudly out and about, we're the ones who are stopped by colleagues, friends or even strangers to take it on the chin. These current players are the same way and former players deal with it too...the constant question of "are you guys really so bad that your fellow students would rather drink themselves into oblivion 100 yards from where you play football than find the time to come in and cheer you on?"

That hurts. That hurts me as an alum, as a former member of the Football staff, and as an incredibly engaged member of the Duke community at large. Not only am I disappointed in the students' actions, I'm angry, borderline irate, at the students' reactions to the consequences, because in my mind, that reflects poorly on everyone who considers themselves to be a part of the Duke community. I know several members of the Football team, past and present, who would agree.

[DevilHorns]

Ha, if I told my parents that reason that you gave, they would think I'm crazy. Just because you only have 3 tests, doesn't mean that you stop studying once one is over. Learning is a continual process and if you have fun in undergraduate years you get to pay the price by plentiful rejections in grad school and med school

I knew plenty of med students that had the time for weekend activities directly because of the 2-3 exam schedule for premed courses. Sure you want to keep on top of things in general, but if you have 3-4 weeks until your next test, do you really think taking the weekends off would make a dent in your pursuit of knowledge? I'm not saying to put all your faith in your ability to cram; I'm just saying most students can find a happy medium that allows them to really enjoy the non-studying side of college. And of all the Duke kids I knew that were premed (which was plenty as I was premed), less than a handful had trouble getting into medical school. Duke is second in the nation in terms of success for medical school admission. The university that is first in that statistic is located in Baltimore. And guess what? I'm a current medical student at that institution. Give you a hint, I'm proud to say I was never a Terp. :p

One of the most peculiar things I noted at Duke was the perception and reality of different majors and fields of study in regards to the strengths/weaknesses of students. I had friends that were History majors and English majors that required the amount of reading that would make it impossible for me to ever have any free time to attend games if I were in their shoes. But they could pump out a 30 page paper in a day if they had to. On the other hand, those same individuals had trouble with the basic science requirement and would spend countless hours on what would take the average premed kid an afternoon at most. My lowest grade at Duke was in a Sociology course, while P chem was just another science course to tally.

[IrishDevil]

Yes, I truly believe that. I knew a lot of the football players very well, among other athletes, while I was at Duke. A lot of them got scholarship offers from other, more prominent, football schools. They came to Duke instead. Sure, part of it was what was best for them (playing time, get name noticed quicker, etc.). But, most of them also came because they wanted to help start the turnaround of Duke Football. They truly believed in the system, the school and they wanted to make it so that their fellow classmates would be proud to say that Duke indeed had a football team and they were making some noise. Did that happen while I was there? No...but all of them, when they put that Duke jersey on, knew they were going to fight tooth and nail for each other and for the pride of the school. They all "unpacked their bags," as Coach K likes to say about the basketball team, and they became invested in Duke.

When Duke succeeds, we all succeed. When Duke gets a black eye, we all get a black eye. These students that are so upset at Tailgate being canceled, they don't have to deal with the criticism of how they are perceived to the nation. We who go to work do or who wear our Duke shirts proudly out and about, we're the ones who are stopped by colleagues, friends or even strangers to take it on the chin. These current players are the same way and former players deal with it too...the constant question of "are you guys really so bad that your fellow students would rather drink themselves into oblivion 100 yards from where you play football than find the time to come in and cheer you on?"

That hurts. That hurts me as an alum, as a former member of the Football staff, and as an incredibly engaged member of the Duke community at large. Not only am I disappointed in the students' actions, I'm angry, borderline irate, at the students' reactions to the consequences, because in my mind, that reflects poorly on everyone who considers themselves to be a part of the Duke community. I know several members of the Football team, past and present, who would agree.

Amen and amen. And as a T'07, there are few whose judgment I would trust in these matters more than blazindw's.

[cf-62]

I'm not a fan on these tweets from the football players and hope Cutcliffe addresses them during a team meeting. Do they really expect to attract students to the games if the players keep calling them irrelevant and the worst fans in D1 football?

Now with regards to student attendance:

Elon had a great student turnout. Season began with a promising start, students were genuinely excited, and we had a good game.

Alabama was packed at the beginning. But do you really expect fans to stay after halftime when we're down 30 or something and are completely incapable of stopping Alabama's offense?

Army had a good showing too, as it was Homecoming. But the football team laid a giant egg against ARMY. Students that were still excited for the team are getting depressed just watching us give up play after play, and now we're dealing with a 1-4 team.

Those are three games, with tailgate beforehand, that had a good student turnout. Let's shift forward to this past weekend. Duke is 2-6. We had a good game against Navy the previous week, but people have already lost faith based on the overall season. Tailgate, as many of you may not have expected, was pretty empty. There were 100-200 students at most. So the excuse that Duke students go to tailgate and not to games is invalid for the Virginia, which had a low turnout. The weather was miserable, students have midterms coming, but most importantly, there is still minimal faith in this team.

I attended the first three games of the season, and my hopes got diminished over the course of the season. I regret missing the game against Virginia, but my mentality was synonymous with most other Duke students: it's still tough to go to a game and hope for a win, but come out empty handed and maybe a little down for the rest of the day. However, student interest was there for attending the BC game because our team is playing well again. Unfortunately, the tailgate cancellations may cause some students to skip out on the game as a revolt. If Duke wins against BC and GT, I'll probably end up staying over thanksgiving break for the UNC game. I've never done that before.

So, take it from me, a senior at Duke. If we show we can win, students will attend games. If we lay eggs like at the beginning of the season, students will not want to attend games. Until Duke becomes a fairly dependable team to win games, students will not come when times get rough, unlike other school's student populace.

What a bunch of rationalizing hooey. Your post is full of all the same BS logic I see rationalizing all kinds of student apathy:

"We have mid-terms coming up"
"It's really intense academically"
"The team can't make a bowl"


Dude, we have sucked at football - except for 1994, 1989, 1988. and 1983, since the 70's. In 1988, we were 7-3-1 and did not go to a bowl, nor did we expect to. Yet students showed up en masse at every game - in 1984, when we were 2-9. In 1985 & 1986 when we were 3-8, in 1990 when we were 2-9, through not 1, not 2, but 3 WINLESS seasons. And guess what. We studied just as hard as you. We had just as much pressure as you. We wanted to succeed as much as you do. And we liked to drink just as much as you. Those students didn't need a "winning team" to go support them. The point is to show your support for these young men who represent US with blood and sweat for years; not just root for our teams when they win.

Weather? WEATHER? This is ----- FOOTBALL!!!!!!!! "Miserable" weather keeps people from the game? Maybe if you guys actually wore CLOTHES to the game, you could dress appropriately and enjoy the game. If you wear spandex, tank tops, and a wig, I guess 60 degrees and rain could be problematic.

Side note: I didn't want to criticize the "next generation" and their acts of "independence" from previous students (costumes), but - really - it's embarrassing as an alum to walk around the stadium and see the handful of students that showed up looking like rejects from the midnight Friday night Rialto show.

Mid-terms? The second week of November? We're 3 weeks from reading period. While I'm sure there may be some tests this week, I seriously doubt that MOST of the 6,000 students that didn't show up for the game were thinking "I can't spend time at the game. I've got that gnarly mid-term on Tuesday."

You're a senior. Why - oh WHY - would you miss the next-to-last home game you will EVER be able to attend as a student? And this weekend is essentially your senior day. Tailgate or not, if you aren't taking GMATs or LSATs this weekend, get your -- SELF -- to the GAME!!!! It's essentially senior day. Your last home game as a student.

And let me put out an early basketball warning for the seniors: You only have 17 more times to see Nolan Smith and Kyle Singler - and the defending national champs. Take your calendars out, put the basketball games on it, and don't let anything pre-empt them.

Rationalize rationalize rationalize. The student body should be embarrassed at 100 people showing up out of 6,000 for a Saturday noon game. And no amount of rationalization changes that.

[loran16]

Chronicle General Editorial:

http://dukechronicle.com/article/end-era-2010

Alex Fanaroff:

http://dukechronicle.com/article/tradition-fumbled

------------------------------

[flyingdutchdevil]

No, their opinion shouldn't matter any more or less than that of any other Duke student, including the tailgaters who he considers irrelevant. I understand that he would like his classmates to come out and support him on Saturdays, but insulting them and forcing them to go to games is probably not the best way to do it. Winning games and building a competitive program build tradition. I was a senior during Cut's first year and when football got off to its best start in years, people started leaving tailgate to go to games. Unfortunately, as the team lost more games, the optimism started to taper off and tailgate went back to being the main Saturday event.

I'm sorry if I come off as a bit defensive with this post, but I was a bit offended by this tweet and the implications that the Duke students who chose to spend their Saturday mornings at tailgate are somehow less important members of the University community than those who don't.

Spot on. Well said.

A football player, or a basketball player for that matter, is not "more special" than any other Duke student.

[flyingdutchdevil]

That hurts. That hurts me as an alum, as a former member of the Football staff, and as an incredibly engaged member of the Duke community at large. Not only am I disappointed in the students' actions, I'm angry, borderline irate, at the students' reactions to the consequences, because in my mind, that reflects poorly on everyone who considers themselves to be a part of the Duke community. I know several members of the Football team, past and present, who would agree.

I agree with you on a lot of points. I agree that tailgate was getting out of control. I agree that the students shouldn't have reacted that way. I agree that there should be more support.

However, I wholeheartedly disagree that you blame the students and the students alone. This is not only unfair but also very short-sighted. The students are partially to blame, as is the athletic department, the football department, and the university as a whole. I, like you, was a student (and by reading your posts, I'm sure we had a few overlapping years). And the students were not to blame for the lack of attendance. There is a new coach, a new mentality WITHIN the football program, but this culture has not transitioned to the students yet (and blaming the students for this is naive and unfair). This transition will not happen this year. Hell, it may not happen next year. But it Cut and Co stick it out, continue what they're doing, then the students will come. They will support. And they'll use tailgate as a way to get excited for football games.

[blazindw]

I don't think it's naive or unfair to blame the students nor am I saying they get all the blame. However, when it comes to student attendance at football games, yes the students should be blamed not just for their lack of participation but also their public mockery of the team while they do what they do. Sure, the administration deserves some blame for allowing Tailgate to spin out of control and not stopping it in 2004-05, but they can't make students go to the game. The saying "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" certainly applies here. The administration moved the Tailgate closer to the stadium so that students were in a better position to venture over to the game. Finally, I admitted that I'm more hardcore than others when it comes to Duke Football. I have season tickets and have traveled down from DC for most of the games. The games I can't make, I pass my tickets on so someone else can enjoy. I also was a member of the team for 3 seasons. So yea, I get fired up when people like me make a 4 hour trip each weekend to cheer on our boys when there are students who feel that football gets in the way of tailgate, and will not apologize for it. That shows a lack of respect and the team knows it. As someone said earlier, if you don't like a particular sport, you don't go tailgating in the parking lot for that game. They got out of control and they were the ones who didn't go to the games. I can't make them go...if I had the power to force student attendance, we'd never have this problem. Student attendance is no one's fault but the students. Again, I'm usually the biggest defender of the students but I feel really strongly about Tailgate and felt that way since its infancy when it was nowhere near as chaotic and appalling as it is now.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

... As someone said earlier, if you don't like a particular sport, you don't go tailgating in the parking lot for that game...

Exactly! This particular point seems lost on many. Putting the whole lack of attendance thing aside for a moment, it's the fact that these students are taking advantage of game days and the administration's leniency and just plain offending everyone around them. It's an afront to players, alums, and fans of all sorts. How can it be interpreted by the team as anything other than a slap in the face? If these students are determined to get plastered on a Saturday morning, do it somewhere else... well, I guess now they will have to. Good riddance to Tailgate!

[davekay1971]

In local Charlotte radio, Mark Packer spent awhile on the cancellation of Tailgate last night. He started out blasting the school for cancelling Tailgate after one event. A Duke alum from the class of '98 got on and explained the situation much more clearly - particularly the way that the students basically go to Tailgate, get plastered, and then don't even bother to go to the game. It was embarrassing, as a Duke grad, to hear about that kind of behavior being discussed on the radio, but I'm glad the Duke alum came on to explain the situation. The only blame the University deserves in this situation is not cancelling Tailgate sooner.

God bless Dave Cutcliffe, but I can't imagine how depressing it must be to try like hell to bring a decent football culture to Duke, go from 3 (or was it 4) wins in the 4 years before he arrived to some halfway decent football seasons, struggle one year with a young team, and have the student body completely abandon you?

[DukeSean]

God bless Dave Cutcliffe, but I can't imagine how depressing it must be to try like hell to bring a decent football culture to Duke, go from 3 (or was it 4) wins in the 4 years before he arrived to some halfway decent football seasons, struggle one year with a young team, and have the student body completely abandon you?

Especially after the loyalty he showed to the university, team, and students by staying at Duke, you'd hope that students would stick with him and the team as well in spite of ongoing struggles.

[Jderf]

This has been said before, but I think it should be re-emphasized. The reason students don't go to the game is not simply because the team isn't doing well; as a lot of posters have pointed out, many bad teams have a strong, regular turnout at their games. Rather, the problem is that, at the moment, Duke lacks a football culture. Going to football games is simply (and unfortunately) not a large part of campus life. Chastizing the current crop of students for not going to the games isn't going to change that. These moralizations are not productive and, furthermore, they make no sense: the lack of a football culture was an issue long before any of the current students arrived on campus. They didn't cause the problem.

On the bright side, things are looking up. The administration has hired a promising coach whose staff has been making all the right moves and gestures towards creating a new and strong atmosphere. So far, it looks like things are moving on up. But, we have to remember that this is going to take time. It won't happen instantaneously. And we can't walk around campus yelling at students to go to the game. That just won't work. Relax, have patience, enjoy the ride, and, if all goes well, in a few years (i.e. not in a week) things will come together and complete the turnaround.

[Biscuit King]

Those two chronicle editorials are a BIG step in the right direction, and they should be required reading for Duke fans and current students.

Kudos to the Chronicle, and especially to Fanaroff, to taking a sensible stand.

[DukeUsul]

In local Charlotte radio, Mark Packer spent awhile on the cancellation of Tailgate last night. He started out blasting the school for cancelling Tailgate after one event. A Duke alum from the class of '98 got on and explained the situation much more clearly - particularly the way that the students basically go to Tailgate, get plastered, and then don't even bother to go to the game. It was embarrassing, as a Duke grad, to hear about that kind of behavior being discussed on the radio, but I'm glad the Duke alum came on to explain the situation. The only blame the University deserves in this situation is not cancelling Tailgate sooner.

God bless Dave Cutcliffe, but I can't imagine how depressing it must be to try like hell to bring a decent football culture to Duke, go from 3 (or was it 4) wins in the 4 years before he arrived to some halfway decent football seasons, struggle one year with a young team, and have the student body completely abandon you?

I believe that was our very own Highlander. Sounds like the guys in Charlotte had no idea what the actual situation was.

[dcdevil2009]

I don't think it's naive or unfair to blame the students nor am I saying they get all the blame. However, when it comes to student attendance at football games, yes the students should be blamed not just for their lack of participation but also their public mockery of the team while they do what they do. Sure, the administration deserves some blame for allowing Tailgate to spin out of control and not stopping it in 2004-05, but they can't make students go to the game. The saying "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" certainly applies here. The administration moved the Tailgate closer to the stadium so that students were in a better position to venture over to the game. Finally, I admitted that I'm more hardcore than others when it comes to Duke Football. I have season tickets and have traveled down from DC for most of the games. The games I can't make, I pass my tickets on so someone else can enjoy. I also was a member of the team for 3 seasons. So yea, I get fired up when people like me make a 4 hour trip each weekend to cheer on our boys when there are students who feel that football gets in the way of tailgate, and will not apologize for it. That shows a lack of respect and the team knows it. As someone said earlier, if you don't like a particular sport, you don't go tailgating in the parking lot for that game. They got out of control and they were the ones who didn't go to the games. I can't make them go...if I had the power to force student attendance, we'd never have this problem. Student attendance is no one's fault but the students. Again, I'm usually the biggest defender of the students but I feel really strongly about Tailgate and felt that way since it's infancy when it was nowhere near as chaotic and appalling as it is now.

Are you angry that students aren't going to games because in their minds they have better things to do on Saturdays or that students aren't going to games because they're going to tailgate instead? Would you have the same outrage if there were no tailgate and people just slept in or studied or got blackout drunk at a house party off east? It's unfair to the 5,900 students who don't go to games for whatever reasons to blame them for making a choice, which they're perfectly free to make. I personally wouldn't want to spend 4-6 weekends a year making the 4 hour drive to Durham to watch a football game, but everyone would agree that it's unfair if I were to criticize you for doing it.

For the sake of full disclosure, I'm one of the people who would rather go to tailgate than a football game, but tailgate wasn't the reason I didn't go to football games. It just wasn't fun to go to games and sit in the cold watching a mediocre team get consistently outplayed, even a mediocre team I wanted to win. Having said that, I think the outrage over tailgate is somewhat misdirected. Instead of focusing on how tailgate affects Duke's image, the concern should be over the health of the students partaking in the debauchery that is tailgate. It just seems like a lot of people are angry that what goes on at tailgate happen in public, not angry about what goes on at tailgate. Would there be the same outcry if students did school work on Saturday mornings, skipped the football game, then got blackout drunk outside Edens or Few once all the visitors left campus instead of waking up at 9am, putting on a costume and getting blackout drunk in a parking lot and going to sleep at 5 so they can wake up Sunday and get back to school work?

[davekay1971]

This really shouldn't be so hard to understand.

1) Tailgating is, pretty much universally, associated with football games, where the fans of the team have some food and drinks before heading into the stadium for the game.

2) The Tailgate at Duke was established as a tradition to go along with the football game.

3) Tailgating doesn't have to involve people getting completely blasted. In fact, at most non-Duke tailgates I've attended, it's pretty rare to see anyone obviously drunk.

4) When you take a football-associated tradition, go to excess on the drinking part of it and then blow off the football part of it, you're basically acting like a horse's rear-end and defeating the whole point of it.

5) When your actions are in public, associated by others with a high-profile university activity, and you act like a horse's rear-end, it bothers other people affiliated with said university.

[Jderf]

Would there be the same outcry if students did school work on Saturday mornings, skipped the football game, then got blackout drunk outside Edens or Few once all the visitors left campus instead of waking up at 9am, putting on a costume and getting blackout drunk in a parking lot and going to sleep at 5 so they can wake up Sunday and get back to school work?

No. There wouldn't be the same outcry. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Beyond the safety issue, the major problem with tailgate was specifically that it was "sanctioned" by the university. It was an image issue. It was an administrative responsibility issue. Now that the university has done the sensible thing and cancelled tailgate, it's no longer their problem. Pragmatically, I say that sounds right. Tackle the liability issue first, the nation-wide-under-age-binge-drinking issue second.

[blazindw]

Are you angry that students aren't going to games because in their minds they have better things to do on Saturdays or that students aren't going to games because they're going to tailgate instead? Would you have the same outrage if there were no tailgate and people just slept in or studied or got blackout drunk at a house party off east? It's unfair to the 5,900 students who don't go to games for whatever reasons to blame them for making a choice, which they're perfectly free to make. I personally wouldn't want to spend 4-6 weekends a year making the 4 hour drive to Durham to watch a football game, but everyone would agree that it's unfair if I were to criticize you for doing it.

For the sake of full disclosure, I'm one of the people who would rather go to tailgate than a football game, but tailgate wasn't the reason I didn't go to football games. It just wasn't fun to go to games and sit in the cold watching a mediocre team get consistently outplayed, even a mediocre team I wanted to win. Having said that, I think the outrage over tailgate is somewhat misdirected. Instead of focusing on how tailgate affects Duke's image, the concern should be over the health of the students partaking in the debauchery that is tailgate. It just seems like a lot of people are angry that what goes on at tailgate happen in public, not angry about what goes on at tailgate. Would there be the same outcry if students did school work on Saturday mornings, skipped the football game, then got blackout drunk outside Edens or Few once all the visitors left campus instead of waking up at 9am, putting on a costume and getting blackout drunk in a parking lot and going to sleep at 5 so they can wake up Sunday and get back to school work?

No, the outcry wouldn't be the same. Again, if you have work to do and that prevents you from going to the game, can't fault you for that. If you don't like football, that's understandable too. I have a lot of friends who don't like sports. Also, people come to tailgate to hang out for a few minutes before they go get work done since they cant sacrifice the 4 hours. But again, why go to a tailgate set up for people to get excited about a football game when you don't like the sport? Why get dressed up and to go to an event made to draw up support for a particular team when you don't want to support them? It only got cold a couple weeks ago...its been pretty hot for the games this season. Yet, kids can go to Tailgate for 5 hours starting at the coldest time of day yet at high noon it is all of a sudden too cold to be outside to cheer the team in which the Tailgate was set up to support. That argument has been thrown around and it doesn't make much sense to me.

I'm not asking the students not to have fun. I'm asking them to do it responsibly, to remember that they represent all of us (just as we represent you), and not to, through your actions, publicly mock a group of student athletes whose only flaw has been not putting enough Ws in the win columns for the students to care.

[gewwang]

It's hard to read all these posts saying, we want the football team to win but we don't want to waste four hours of our precious Saturday just to see them lose.

Isn't that what Coach K means when he calls the Crazies part of the basketball team - the "6th man"? When the team is down or needs a boost, the "6th man"'s job is to provide that boost and win the game with the team - as an integral part of the team.

Coach Cut is in his 3rd year.

You know what Coach K's record was his 3rd year? 1982-83 Overall 11–17, ACC 3–11 (7th out of 8 teams in conference)

Luckily for Coach K, many still believed in him and still attended games. What if they didn't? Maybe Tom Butters would've taken the Iron Dukes petition to fire him more seriously if the student section was empty.

Where is Coach Cut's "6th man"?

[dcdevil2009]

No, the outcry wouldn't be the same. Again, if you have work to do and that prevents you from going to the game, can't fault you for that. If you don't like football, that's understandable too. I have a lot of friends who don't like sports. Also, people come to tailgate to hang out for a few minutes before they go ger work done since they cant sacrifice the 4 hours. But again, why go to a tailgate set up for people to get excited about a football game when you don't like the sport? Why get dressed up and to go to an event made to draw up support for a particular team when you don't want to support them? It only got cold a couple weeks ago...its been pretty hot for the games this season. Yet, kids can go to Tailgate for 5 hours starting at the coldest time of day yet at high noon it is all of a sudden too cold to be outside to cheer the team in which the Tailgate was set up to support. That argument has been thrown around and it doesn't make much sense to me.

I'm not asking the students not to have fun. I'm asking them to do it responsibly, to remember that they represent all of us (just as we represent you), and not to publicly mock a group of student athletes whose only flaw has been not putting enough Ws

Yes, Tailgate was set up to build support for the football team and intended to be a traditional tailgate. No, Duke's administration was not successful in accomplishing this. Now, or at least until last week, there's an event on campus called Tailgate that coincides with the football games. In form, Duke Tailgate is like a traditional tailgate: it's held on Saturdays before home football games, students show up hours before the game and leave the tailgate before kickoff. In substance, Duke Tailgate is not a traditional tailgate and hasn't been for a long time. Rather, Duke Tailgate is a university-sanctioned, BYOB party for the enjoyment of those who choose to go, similar to an LDOC or Springernational.

By calling it tailgate, those outside the current student population associates it with a traditional tailgate and expect participants to act accordingly. Since this isn't what happens, people get angry at the party-goers in the student lot for insulting the football team or taking advantage of the University who allows this to go on. I think the safety issue of Tailgate should be addressed and if there's no safe way to conduct it, then Tailgate should remain canceled. However, to say that students are taking advantage of the university by going to Tailgate but not football games is incorrect when the University has allowed tailgate to go on as a party and not a traditional tailgate for years, even admitting as much by establishing more football related pre-game festivities on main west last year.

If the University actually wanted to make Tailgate about the football team it has had plenty of opportunities to demonstrate it over the past decade and instead focused on making the event safer for party-goers by providing free food and water and on-site port-a-johns, security, and EMS. By treating Tailgate like a party, the University is telling students that Tailgate is a party and students have acted accordingly. But by calling it a tailgate on paper, alumni and other visitors on game day think it is a traditional tailgate and are appalled that students aren't acting accordingly.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

3) Tailgating doesn't have to involve people getting completely blasted. In fact, at most non-Duke tailgates I've attended, it's pretty rare to see anyone obviously drunk.

4) When you take a football-associated tradition, go to excess on the drinking part of it and then blow off the football part of it, you're basically acting like a horse's rear-end and defeating the whole point of it.

5) When your actions are in public, associated by others with a high-profile university activity, and you act like a horse's rear-end, it bothers other people affiliated with said university.
#3 I'll take exception to. It is pretty common, but certainly not everyone. At MANY schools, a substantial number of students get really s-faced at tailgates. So do many adults, so I'm not limiting that statement to students, and I'm not going to blindly exclude it from happening at Duke either. Go to a State, ECU or carolina tailgate (and I've been to State and ECU student tailgates over the years, but have avoided going over to the dump on the hump), and have witnessed such happenings.

Remember a couple of years ago in Raleigh when there was a shooting in the parking lot on the State fairgrounds parking lot at the public tailgating there? Yup. Scary to the max. Alcohol related, of course.

Your points 4 and 5 are spot on.

[flyingdutchdevil]

No, the outcry wouldn't be the same. Again, if you have work to do and that prevents you from going to the game, can't fault you for that. If you don't like football, that's understandable too. I have a lot of friends who don't like sports. Also, people come to tailgate to hang out for a few minutes before they go get work done since they cant sacrifice the 4 hours. But again, why go to a tailgate set up for people to get excited about a football game when you don't like the sport? Why get dressed up and to go to an event made to draw up support for a particular team when you don't want to support them? It only got cold a couple weeks ago...its been pretty hot for the games this season. Yet, kids can go to Tailgate for 5 hours starting at the coldest time of day yet at high noon it is all of a sudden too cold to be outside to cheer the team in which the Tailgate was set up to support. That argument has been thrown around and it doesn't make much sense to me.

I'm not asking the students not to have fun. I'm asking them to do it responsibly, to remember that they represent all of us (just as we represent you), and not to, through your actions, publicly mock a group of student athletes whose only flaw has been not putting enough Ws in the win columns for the students to care.

You're right in that Duke alums and Duke supporters, including myself, should be upset about the whole tailgate issue. It was an issue. And hopefully, it won't show its ugly face again.

However, this thread started because of the lack of students at Duke football games. With or without tailgate, there wouldn't be a lot of students to begin with. Tailgate may have deterred some students from going to the games (key word being some, not all), but I think there is a much larger issue at stack and that's Duke's mentality and culture towards Duke football. Without tailgate, do you really expect there to be a lot more students? Maybe the UVA game would have had an extra 100 students, but there would still be a glaring hole in the stadium. To get those numbers up, Duke needs to do three things in increasing order of importance: 1) invest heavily in football (on the right track), 2) be competitive on the field (on the right track), and 3) have a positive mentality about Duke football (not there at all). These three actions will inevitably lead to a stronger student fan base which will lead to a better turnout at WW. Again, this takes time. Ending tailgate was a smart move. Now they have to focus on changing Duke football sentiment, mentality, and culture.

Look at the basketball mentality on campus. I am an international kid who had a lot of international friends; many came to Duke not understanding the rules to the game and within a semester were reeling off shooting percentage statistics for all members of the team. This has all to do with the culture and mentality. This rarely happens with Duke football.

[davekay1971]

#3 I'll take exception to. It is pretty common, but certainly not everyone. At MANY schools, a substantial number of students get really s-faced at tailgates. So do many adults, so I'm not limiting that statement to students, and I'm not going to blindly exclude it from happening at Duke either.

Your points 4 and 5 are spot on.

I'll defer to your experience and count my point #3 as invalid. Clearly I've been going to the wrong tailgates ;)

[loran16]

It's hard to read all these posts saying, we want the football team to win but we don't want to waste four hours of our precious Saturday just to see them lose.

Isn't that what Coach K means when he calls the Crazies part of the basketball team - the "6th man"? When the team is down or needs a boost, the "6th man"'s job is to provide that boost and win the game with the team - as an integral part of the team.

Coach Cut is in his 3rd year.

You know what Coach K's record was his 3rd year? 1982-83 Overall 11–17, ACC 3–11 (7th out of 8 teams in conference)

Luckily for Coach K, many still believed in him and still attended games. What if they didn't? Maybe Tom Butters would've taken the Iron Dukes petition to fire him more seriously if the student section was empty.

Where is Coach Cut's "6th man"?

A few things:
Duke had a recent basketball tradition before Coach K. The year before K, Duke made the Elite 8. Oh and Duke was having its first year of it's first great recruiting class.

That said, and I don't have pictures or evidence of this, I'd imagine BBall support was nowhere near where it was today, and was shy of lets say 80% capacity. Still good, but not what it is today.

Oh and meanwhile, Duke Football:

By Contrast:
Duke Football hasn't had a winning season since 1994, and hasn't had a winning tradition since Spurrier. That's 16-20 years, a big difference than 3 years removed from winning. And while Cut hasn't had bad recruiting classes, nothing like the Dawkins class has come and is expected to come.

------------------------------
IN OTHER WORDS: STOP COMPARING DUKE FOOTBALL AND BBALL. They are incomparable in their situations, other than Duke BBall being part of the culture and Duke Football not. The 3rd season of K has no comparable relevance to this discussion.

[watzone]

I take offense to it being called a "tailgate." A tailgate generally has food and not just spirits. Duke once tried to feed the party goers but they according to my inside sources (ha-ha) abused those serving said food and chased them out by not eating. Call it what it really is -- a party. Nothing in the mosh pit resembles anything close to a tailgate most of us know. It would be wise to have an after part, especially since it is again, far from a traditional tailgate. Give students attending the game an arm band to the after party;) BTW, no where else is there such a discussion on a hot button issue like this DBR thread.

[killerleft]

I think it was pretty clear that I wasn't trying to "call out" Austin or criticize his sentiment. Rather, I was pointing out that I find it sad to see members of the football team and the student body publicly squabbling. As I said, I think the football team is completely justified in being frustrated, but that doesn't mean I want to see players calling students irrelevant. It's a sad state of affairs, and I don't think there's anything wrong with saying so. I'd rather everyone stop blaming everyone else and just work towards finding a solution so that students can have fun and be part of the football atmosphere at the same time.

Perhaps Austin was meaning to say "You are as relevant to me (as a football player) as I am to you (as a fan).". If put that way, I agree with him 100%.

[El_Diablo]

A tailgate generally has food and not just spirits. Duke once tried to feed the party goers but they according to my inside sources (ha-ha) abused those serving said food and chased them out by not eating.

For the sake of accuracy, there actually was a food stand serving food in the parking lot this year. And some people did bring food on their own.


Call it what it really is -- a party.

True, it was just a party. The students called it Tailgate due to inertia, because the now-tenuous connection to football was how it really started, and why the administration allowed it to continue far longer than it reasonably should have, considering its widespread alcohol crackdown over the past decade.

Anyway, the party's over. And the students really have no one to blame but themselves.

[urbanlifedecay]

That may be true for engineers, but that's definitely not true for premeds. Most required premed courses at Duke have anywhere from 2-3 big exams a semester (including the final). That literally means only 1-2 weekends in the fall where it would be inadvisable to NOT study and go spend precious time in any other way.


LOL. Sorry, but I have to respond to this because you greatly underestimate the time being pre-med takes. Yes, pre-req courses will only have 3 to 4 exams per semester. But on top of that, these courses have weekly in-class quizzes that are nearly as difficult as exams; weekly online reading quizzes for 100 pages of dense, new material; weekly problem sets that are nigh impossible, taking hours to complete; and weekly pre-lab and post-lab write-ups. On top of the that, we have classes for our majors and gen ed requirements like foreign languages, which often assign long essays and readings and have their own homework and exams. On top of that, to have a competitive application many pre-meds devote a significant amount of time to research jobs, community service, and leadership positions. Right now I'm averaging about 3 hours of sleep per night.

[MCFinARL]

This has been said before, but I think it should be re-emphasized. The reason students don't go to the game is not simply because the team isn't doing well; as a lot of posters have pointed out, many bad teams have a strong, regular turnout at their games. Rather, the problem is that, at the moment, Duke lacks a football culture. Going to football games is simply (and unfortunately) not a large part of campus life. Chastizing the current crop of students for not going to the games isn't going to change that. These moralizations are not productive and, furthermore, they make no sense: the lack of a football culture was an issue long before any of the current students arrived on campus. They didn't cause the problem.

On the bright side, things are looking up. The administration has hired a promising coach whose staff has been making all the right moves and gestures towards creating a new and strong atmosphere. So far, it looks like things are moving on up. But, we have to remember that this is going to take time. It won't happen instantaneously. And we can't walk around campus yelling at students to go to the game. That just won't work. Relax, have patience, enjoy the ride, and, if all goes well, in a few years (i.e. not in a week) things will come together and complete the turnaround.

This makes a lot of sense to me. My daughter (Duke '08) was a regular tailgater, but she also came to college loving football, and one big disappointment for her in an otherwise very good experience at Duke was that she could almost never get any of her friends to go on to the football game after tailgate. True, she could have gone by herself, and maybe some kids would have, but part of what makes it fun is that community spirit that other posters in this thread have mentioned--a football culture, where lots of students are going to the games, where you come with friends, see more friends, and cheer together while you are there.

She did go to a lot of other Duke sports events that aren't generally well-attended--men's and women's lacrosse, women's volleyball, occasionally women's soccer--because she and her friends enjoyed going to the games together and knew people on the teams.

Some posters have suggested working hard to lure freshmen to games--that makes sense to me, as older students may already have established patterns and attitudes. If a lot of freshmen start coming to the games, it will be fun, and if it's fun, more people will come to the games--and keep coming after they move to West.

[DukieInKansas]

This makes a lot of sense to me. My daughter (Duke '08) was a regular tailgater, but she also came to college loving football, and one big disappointment for her in an otherwise very good experience at Duke was that she could almost never get any of her friends to go on to the football game after tailgate. True, she could have gone by herself, and maybe some kids would have, but part of what makes it fun is that community spirit that other posters in this thread have mentioned--a football culture, where lots of students are going to the games, where you come with friends, see more friends, and cheer together while you are there.

She did go to a lot of other Duke sports events that aren't generally well-attended--men's and women's lacrosse, women's volleyball, occasionally women's soccer--because she and her friends enjoyed going to the games together and knew people on the teams. Some posters have suggested working hard to lure freshmen to games--that makes sense to me, as older students may already have established patterns and attitudes. If a lot of freshmen start coming to the games, it will be fun, and if it's fun, more people will come to the games--and keep coming after they move to West.

Forget about tailgate/partygate.

The BC game is the last game that most students will/can attend this season. The above bolded section to me is important. The players on the team have friends, classmates, and fraternity brothers, etc. How can their friends/acquaintances be encouraged to come to this game - especially those that know the seniors on the team? I would hope that friendship alone would do it - but apparently it will take more. There are only a few days left to convince them that spending a few hours in WW with other friends would be a fun way to spend some time together.

[cf-62]

LOL. Sorry, but I have to respond to this because you greatly underestimate the time being pre-med takes. Yes, pre-req courses will only have 3 to 4 exams per semester. But on top of that, these courses have weekly in-class quizzes that are nearly as difficult as exams; weekly online reading quizzes for 100 pages of dense, new material; weekly problem sets that are nigh impossible, taking hours to complete; and weekly pre-lab and post-lab write-ups. On top of the that, we have classes for our majors and gen ed requirements like foreign languages, which often assign long essays and readings and have their own homework and exams. On top of that, to have a competitive application many pre-meds devote a significant amount of time to research jobs, community service, and leadership positions. Right now I'm averaging about 3 hours of sleep per night.

I know of zero pre-meds that had the schedule you describe. My wife's roommate was a "have to study hard" pre-med - and she made every single football and basketball game senior year - and she got into Northwestern Med School. BTW, she was also an active Sorority sister, and involved in Student Union. I use her as an example because she was not a photographic memory person that got everything easy. She literally had to study hours for each hour of class just to stay current.

Look, if you choose NOT to make going to football games a priority, then say "I don't want to go to football games" and take the hits. But there are no alumni that buy into this "our academic career is too important and requires all my time" BS - because we went through it, too.

[urbanlifedecay]

I know of zero pre-meds that had the schedule you describe. My wife's roommate was a "have to study hard" pre-med - and she made every single football and basketball game senior year - and she got into Northwestern Med School. BTW, she was also an active Sorority sister, and involved in Student Union. I use her as an example because she was not a photographic memory person that got everything easy. She literally had to study hours for each hour of class just to stay current.

Look, if you choose NOT to make going to football games a priority, then say "I don't want to go to football games" and take the hits. But there are no alumni that buy into this "our academic career is too important and requires all my time" BS - because we went through it, too.

That was a description of my current schedule, except I don't have a research job, and I have other weekly obligations that I did not mention. I know plenty of pre-meds taking on more than me. I have no problem saying I don't go to football because I don't want to. When a take a break from my work I do so knowing it'll cause stress later; I'm not going to do that for something I don't enjoy or don't really want to do. Finally, you can't claim that it is a simple thing to set aside 3 to 5 hours on a Saturday for everyone. I personally spent last Saturday working from noon til 1 a.m., and I still had to pull an all-nighter last night.

[umdukie]

Here are my $.02 as a current Duke senior:

I can honestly say that the fondest memories as an undergraduate here at Duke after cheering on our basketball team was attending tailgate. It was something that while 1/3 of the student body absolutely despised and another 1/3 was somewhat ambivalent towards, 1/3 of the student body ABSOLUTELY ADORED. It was the most diverse cross-section of my fellow classmates that I have ever seen gathered in one place. There were engineers, Greeks, freshman hall mates, former study group members, non-football athletes, independents, etc. etc. It was a place where everyone set their differences aside, grabbed a couple of brews, threw their fists in their, chanted along to their favorite tunes and celebrated the essence of what was for many of us, a DUKE Saturday morning/afternoon ritual. Even when I was a freshman, the seniors started college here in the Fall of 2004 so they were ingrained in the culture as well so it was a tradition that we all celebrated.

And here's the key: it has NOTHING to do with football. In fact, for many of us, the fact that there was a football game during the day was actually a distraction because it meant that the partying had to end. I don't particularly care for college football and especially don't care enough to support one of the worst college football programs in existence and one that's had a losing record for almost as long as I have been alive.

However, "Tailgate" as its called, was essentially one of the hallmarks of my undergraduate experience here. It is perhaps misunderstood because it doesn't relate to the football team and gives me an excuse to drink with my friends courtesy of the university, but it is truly a spectacle that upholds the "work hard, play hard" image that convinced me to pick Duke over Columbia, MIT, Chicago and Cornell. I don't regret my decision for a second, but I do regret that the classes below me will be deprived of this fun Saturday tradition at Duke.

I know many of you older adults don't approve of underage drinking or wild parties in general, but I fancy alcohol much more than I fancy our terrible football program. Why should everyone be an avid Duke football fan or even a college football fan in general? There's no "social contract" I signed upon enrolling at Duke that I had to support this football team through thick and thin. I think Coach Cut is a great guy, but I have no obligation to support the program he's built anymore than I have an obligation to support Danowski's Lacrosse team here. The truth is the vast majority of the student body here doesn't care about the football team but cares deeply about Tailgate.

Within 10 hours, a Facebook event (which has been since disbanded) promoting an alternative Tailgate on the Main Quad to defy Moneta garnered over 1,500 members. All the Duke football games this season combined probably haven't had that many students attend. So I beg the question: why does Duke have to have a football culture? Why can't it just be the greatest college basketball program on Earth? That seems to be a pretty strong and unique identity to me already. Just because a lot of other colleges have a strong football tradition, does that ipso facto mean we should as well? I hope we can be more creative than that...we go to Duke after all.

With or without Moneta's permission, I will be enjoying my right to legally drink on a crisp Fall afternoon for perhaps the last time with my buddies in college this Saturday morning. Many of my fellow seniors will be doing the same whether it be in a dorm section on campus or in an off campus apartment/house. I will put on my favorite costume, get tipsy, scream drunkenly to "Shout" and celebrate one of my last afternoons as a college youth in True Blue fashion.

Enough talk about Tailgate and our mediocre football team who plays after it: lets talk Duke Basketball. On Sunday, I will don my Duke Championship apparel along with every other senior I know and go watch Duke play Princeton. I know the game might be insignificant and the result might be a foregone conclusion, but the game will incredible sentimental value to every senior at this school. All of us will be reveling in the fact that this is the first of the last 17 times we can watch our every own Nolan Smith (T'11) and Kyle Singler (T'11) work their magic AND celebrating the life of a member of our class, Drew Everson (T'11), who tragically passed away a couple of weeks back.

Drew was a HUGE fan of both Duke Tailgate and Duke Basketball. I know he'll be smiling down upon the entire senior class from the heavens as we all celebrate both university traditions in one weekend for the last time in a way that honors his memory in the most fitting way.

GO DUKE!!!

[CameronBornAndBred]

So I beg the question: why does Duke have to have a football culture? Why can't it just be the greatest college basketball program on Earth?
GO DUKE!!!
I appreciate the time and effort you put into your post, and I respect your feelings on the issue, but I do disagree with them. Specifically, to your question, here is my answer.
Duke needs to have a football culture because football is part of Duke's rich sports history. As long as Duke has a football program (which isn't going away), the university needs to strive for excellence just as it does with every other aspect of the school. If there is not a culture surrounding it, it is a slap in the face to those in the past that put their blood and sweat into making the program what it once was and will be again. Settling for only having the greatest program in one sport and not the others is not representative of the excellence that Duke strives for.

[Bluedog]

I appreciate the time and effort you put into your post, and I respect your feelings on the issue, but I do disagree with them. Specifically, to your question, here is my answer.
Duke needs to have a football culture because football is part of Duke's rich sports history. As long as Duke has a football program (which isn't going away), the university needs to strive for excellence just as it does with every other aspect of the school. If there is not a culture surrounding it, it is a slap in the face to those in the past that put their blood and sweat into making the program what it once was and will be again. Settling for only having the greatest program in one sport and not the others is not representative of the excellence that Duke strives for.

I somewhat agree with you, but what about lacrosse? We have a history of being one of the premiere lacrosse teams in the nation. And women's golf. And tennis. And soccer. Is it a slap in the face to those athletes that attendance to those sports is much much much worse than football attendance? They have put sweat and blood into achieving at the highest levels as well...I understand that nationally football is a bigger and more popular sport. But maybe Duke just doesn't attract that many football fans...I don't know. But I don't see why the football team automatically deserves far more support than our other high achieving athletes on the tennis, golf, soccer, and lacrosse teams. Especially since the product on the field/court in those sports has been much better lately. While I hope we can change the culture and the football team gets more fan support, it's not like the players aren't getting anything out of the arrangement. They get a full ride to one of the best universities in the nation while others are paying $50,000/year; and they gained acceptance to this institution primarily based on their athletic excellence (which I'm not against necessarily, it's just a statement of fact; our football admissions standards are not even close to those of like Stanford, where they actually have found a formula of great students and a great team).

[formerdukeathlete]

Here are my $.02 as a current Duke senior:

I can honestly say that the fondest memories as an undergraduate here at Duke after cheering on our basketball team was attending tailgate. It was something that while 1/3 of the student body absolutely despised and another 1/3 was somewhat ambivalent towards, 1/3 of the student body ABSOLUTELY ADORED. It was the most diverse cross-section of my fellow classmates that I have ever seen gathered in one place. There were engineers, Greeks, freshman hall mates, former study group members, non-football athletes, independents, etc. etc. It was a place where everyone set their differences aside, grabbed a couple of brews, threw their fists in their, chanted along to their favorite tunes and celebrated the essence of what was for many of us, a DUKE Saturday morning/afternoon ritual. Even when I was a freshman, the seniors started college here in the Fall of 2004 so they were ingrained in the culture as well so it was a tradition that we all celebrated.

And here's the key: it has NOTHING to do with football. In fact, for many of us, the fact that there was a football game during the day was actually a distraction because it meant that the partying had to end. I don't particularly care for college football and especially don't care enough to support one of the worst college football programs in existence and one that's had a losing record for almost as long as I have been alive.

However, "Tailgate" as its called, was essentially one of the hallmarks of my undergraduate experience here. It is perhaps misunderstood because it doesn't relate to the football team and gives me an excuse to drink with my friends courtesy of the university, but it is truly a spectacle that upholds the "work hard, play hard" image that convinced me to pick Duke over Columbia, MIT, Chicago and Cornell. I don't regret my decision for a second, but I do regret that the classes below me will be deprived of this fun Saturday tradition at Duke.

I know many of you older adults don't approve of underage drinking or wild parties in general, but I fancy alcohol much more than I fancy our terrible football program. Why should everyone be an avid Duke football fan or even a college football fan in general? There's no "social contract" I signed upon enrolling at Duke that I had to support this football team through thick and thin. I think Coach Cut is a great guy, but I have no obligation to support the program he's built anymore than I have an obligation to support Danowski's Lacrosse team here. The truth is the vast majority of the student body here doesn't care about the football team but cares deeply about Tailgate.

Within 10 hours, a Facebook event (which has been since disbanded) promoting an alternative Tailgate on the Main Quad to defy Moneta garnered over 1,500 members. All the Duke football games this season combined probably haven't had that many students attend. So I beg the question: why does Duke have to have a football culture? Why can't it just be the greatest college basketball program on Earth? That seems to be a pretty strong and unique identity to me already. Just because a lot of other colleges have a strong football tradition, does that ipso facto mean we should as well? I hope we can be more creative than that...we go to Duke after all.

With or without Moneta's permission, I will be enjoying my right to legally drink on a crisp Fall afternoon for perhaps the last time with my buddies in college this Saturday morning. Many of my fellow seniors will be doing the same whether it be in a dorm section on campus or in an off campus apartment/house. I will put on my favorite costume, get tipsy, scream drunkenly to "Shout" and celebrate one of my last afternoons as a college youth in True Blue fashion.

Enough talk about Tailgate and our mediocre football team who plays after it: lets talk Duke Basketball. On Sunday, I will don my Duke Championship apparel along with every other senior I know and go watch Duke play Princeton. I know the game might be insignificant and the result might be a foregone conclusion, but the game will incredible sentimental value to every senior at this school. All of us will be reveling in the fact that this is the first of the last 17 times we can watch our every own Nolan Smith (T'11) and Kyle Singler (T'11) work their magic AND celebrating the life of a member of our class, Drew Everson (T'11), who tragically passed away a couple of weeks back.

Drew was a HUGE fan of both Duke Tailgate and Duke Basketball. I know he'll be smiling down upon the entire senior class from the heavens as we all celebrate both university traditions in one weekend for the last time in a way that honors his memory in the most fitting way.

GO DUKE!!!

This is a perfectly reasonable post and I think fairly represents current students' views who enjoy Tailgate.

[Channing]

The problem with Tailgate, in my mind, was that it was the face the university portrayed to visiting teams. If some think it is a good idea to get black out drunk on any occasion and for any reason, that is their prerogative (although I would question their priorities). Doing so in front of guests is embarassing. Like it or not, tailgating is associated with football. It would be hard to disassociate Tailgate from Duke football since it only occurs on gamedays. If Duke students want to have a weekly halloween party - great. Let them have it in their dorm or at Shooters, or anywhere other than as a representative of our school.

Further, real tailgates are an incredible amount of fun. Setting up a tent with some buddies, grilling out or preparing a low country boil while sitting around and drinking libations and tossing the football is a great time. I would encourage any students who are distraught over the loss of their "tradition" (which by the way, goes back to 2004 - hardly a deeply engrained tradition) to put together a real tailgate. Who knows, you may just have some fun (and remember it the next day).

[Reilly]

umdukie, it's not so much a 'football culture' as it is a 'Duke coming together culture' that we need. And it seems like you are *exactly* the type of Duke student who can appreciate it with your heartfelt words about what was special about Tailgate. As an alum, I had *zero* problems with Tailgate per se. If students want to gather and party, more power to them. I sincerely hope folks enjoy their time at Duke and bond.

What I *also* want to see is Duke as whole coming together as one. There are X opportunities we have to do that. Games in Cameron are one. Graduation is another. Gameday Saturday is another one of great, longstanding tradition: same place, couple Saturdays every Fall, since 1929. It's where Duke as a whole (alums, students, employees, friends and fans) gathered. All the better if the football is great and exciting -- but the football is not point, the point is Duke coming together as one. For whatever historical reasons, the Saturday Fall games were where that happened, where Duke came together. If students don't attend (whether due to studying, or Tailgate-ing) ... well, that lessens the Gamdeday Saturday party for all of us. Lots of bad football has lessened the party as well, as fewer of all categories of Duke collective were gathering -- they just had better things to do. That's sad. And true. We were missing out on one of our greatest, longest standing traditions ... and a thing that can *truly* have representatives from all facets of Duke come together (not just 1/3 of the students coming together). In short, we like Duke students. Many of us were ones, once. And it's really cool when Duke comes together as one. We have that chance this Saturday.

[cf-62]

Here are my $.02 as a current Duke senior:

I can honestly say that the fondest memories as an undergraduate here at Duke after cheering on our basketball team was attending tailgate. It was something that while 1/3 of the student body absolutely despised and another 1/3 was somewhat ambivalent towards, 1/3 of the student body ABSOLUTELY ADORED. It was the most diverse cross-section of my fellow classmates that I have ever seen gathered in one place. There were engineers, Greeks, freshman hall mates, former study group members, non-football athletes, independents, etc. etc. It was a place where everyone set their differences aside, grabbed a couple of brews, threw their fists in their, chanted along to their favorite tunes and celebrated the essence of what was for many of us, a DUKE Saturday morning/afternoon ritual. Even when I was a freshman, the seniors started college here in the Fall of 2004 so they were ingrained in the culture as well so it was a tradition that we all celebrated.

And here's the key: it has NOTHING to do with football. In fact, for many of us, the fact that there was a football game during the day was actually a distraction because it meant that the partying had to end. I don't particularly care for college football and especially don't care enough to support one of the worst college football programs in existence and one that's had a losing record for almost as long as I have been alive.

However, "Tailgate" as its called, was essentially one of the hallmarks of my undergraduate experience here. It is perhaps misunderstood because it doesn't relate to the football team and gives me an excuse to drink with my friends courtesy of the university, but it is truly a spectacle that upholds the "work hard, play hard" image that convinced me to pick Duke over Columbia, MIT, Chicago and Cornell. I don't regret my decision for a second, but I do regret that the classes below me will be deprived of this fun Saturday tradition at Duke.

I know many of you older adults don't approve of underage drinking or wild parties in general, but I fancy alcohol much more than I fancy our terrible football program. Why should everyone be an avid Duke football fan or even a college football fan in general? There's no "social contract" I signed upon enrolling at Duke that I had to support this football team through thick and thin. I think Coach Cut is a great guy, but I have no obligation to support the program he's built anymore than I have an obligation to support Danowski's Lacrosse team here. The truth is the vast majority of the student body here doesn't care about the football team but cares deeply about Tailgate.

Within 10 hours, a Facebook event (which has been since disbanded) promoting an alternative Tailgate on the Main Quad to defy Moneta garnered over 1,500 members. All the Duke football games this season combined probably haven't had that many students attend. So I beg the question: why does Duke have to have a football culture? Why can't it just be the greatest college basketball program on Earth? That seems to be a pretty strong and unique identity to me already. Just because a lot of other colleges have a strong football tradition, does that ipso facto mean we should as well? I hope we can be more creative than that...we go to Duke after all.

With or without Moneta's permission, I will be enjoying my right to legally drink on a crisp Fall afternoon for perhaps the last time with my buddies in college this Saturday morning. Many of my fellow seniors will be doing the same whether it be in a dorm section on campus or in an off campus apartment/house. I will put on my favorite costume, get tipsy, scream drunkenly to "Shout" and celebrate one of my last afternoons as a college youth in True Blue fashion.

Enough talk about Tailgate and our mediocre football team who plays after it: lets talk Duke Basketball. On Sunday, I will don my Duke Championship apparel along with every other senior I know and go watch Duke play Princeton. I know the game might be insignificant and the result might be a foregone conclusion, but the game will incredible sentimental value to every senior at this school. All of us will be reveling in the fact that this is the first of the last 17 times we can watch our every own Nolan Smith (T'11) and Kyle Singler (T'11) work their magic AND celebrating the life of a member of our class, Drew Everson (T'11), who tragically passed away a couple of weeks back.

Drew was a HUGE fan of both Duke Tailgate and Duke Basketball. I know he'll be smiling down upon the entire senior class from the heavens as we all celebrate both university traditions in one weekend for the last time in a way that honors his memory in the most fitting way.

GO DUKE!!!

You have a lot of good points. As you can tell from previous posts in this thread, your issues, your concerns, especially wanting the awesome "traditions" that you and your classmates have developed as part of the work hard, play hard ethic to be passed on.

We had those exact same concerns. Of course, with us, it was the death of kegs. We truly considered the stoppage of kegs, and the subsequent "no sharing" rules that were put in place to be the death knell of work hard, play hard - along with the passing of the Hideaway.

Of course, the ethos has persisted, and grew a new tradition in the form of Tailgate. I don't begrudge college students, especially Dukies, blowing off steam with some healthy binge drinking.

As for your other concern, it is also a debate that has been ranging for almost 50 years now, since an anti-athletics faction took over the faculty and dismantled one of the nation's premier football programs.

The fact is that we are a proud founding member of the Atlantic Coast Conference, the premier athletic conference in the nation because of premier athletic AND academic institutions. And the ACC requires you to play football, so there is no serious consideration of dropping football.

And if we're going to play football, then - dammit - we should strive for success. Ultimately there is NO REASON we should not be able to build a program to compete for National prominence - if we commit to it.

For alums, that means support - buying season tickets, traveling with the team, and donating to the program. For students, you only have ONE thing to do - GO TO GAMES! Next year, you can look at stepping up in other ways. But this year, do YOUR PART - and go to the games.

[formerdukeathlete]

I somewhat agree with you, but what about lacrosse? We have a history of being one of the premiere lacrosse teams in the nation. And women's golf. And tennis. And soccer. Is it a slap in the face to those athletes that attendance to those sports is much much much worse than football attendance? They have put sweat and blood into achieving at the highest levels as well...I understand that nationally football is a bigger and more popular sport. But maybe Duke just doesn't attract that many football fans...I don't know. But I don't see why the football team automatically deserves far more support than our other high achieving athletes on the tennis, golf, soccer, and lacrosse teams. Especially since the product on the field/court in those sports has been much better lately. While I hope we can change the culture and the football team gets more fan support, it's not like the players aren't getting anything out of the arrangement. They get a full ride to one of the best universities in the nation while others are paying $50,000/year; and they gained acceptance to this institution primarily based on their athletic excellence (which I'm not against necessarily, it's just a statement of fact; our football admissions standards are not even close to those of like Stanford, where they actually have found a formula of great students and a great team).

You bring up very valid points. Our Football team deserves support from any student interested in giving his or her support, but not more than any other varsity team which competes on behalf of the University. The calibre of our Football recruits can improve academically and athletically, pursuing a broader range of majors more typical of undergrads, which would have to help build student support.