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kong123
11-05-2010, 08:29 PM
Well, it is 57 to 35 UNC at the half.

So far, Zeller is leading the Heels in pt's. Both Dexter and McDonald are playing well and surprisingly, Justin Watts is playing very well.

Drew had three fouls early and sat out quite a bit. Barnes and Bullock looked out of sorts. Barnes has 6 pt's and Bullock had at least 2 pt's on a dunk. He looked slow on defense and made a really bad pass over the head of McDonald which went out of bounds. Justin Knox is playing well, but hasn't had a chance to do his thing yet. UNC is much bigger and more talented than Barton. Barton has made a few 3's with hands in the faces to keep the score where it is. I think the Heels have 11 TO's.

OldPhiKap
11-05-2010, 08:47 PM
Well, it is 57 to 35 UNC at the half.

So far, Zeller is leading the Heels in pt's. Both Dexter and McDonald are playing well and surprisingly, Justin Watts is playing very well.

Drew had three fouls early and sat out quite a bit. Barnes and Bullock looked out of sorts. Barnes has 6 pt's and Bullock had at least 2 pt's on a dunk. He looked slow on defense and made a really bad pass over the head of McDonald which went out of bounds. Justin Knox is playing well, but hasn't had a chance to do his thing yet. UNC is much bigger and more talented than Barton. Barton has made a few 3's with hands in the faces to keep the score where it is. I think the Heels have 11 TO's.

Thanks for the report, Kong. I think TO's will be key for the Heels this year -- absolutely killed them last year.

My guess is that Carolina will be good but somewhat inconsistent to start, and then health and ability to withstand the wear and tear of the grind will determine how they finish.

kong123
11-05-2010, 08:49 PM
Thanks for the report, Kong. I think TO's will be key for the Heels this year -- absolutely killed them last year.

My guess is that Carolina will be good but somewhat inconsistent to start, and then health and ability to withstand the wear and tear of the grind will determine how they finish.

Zeller is playing like a man. Very aggressive, unlike last year. I know this is a smaller team, but this is a great sign.

Dexter is looking GREAT.

HB looks horrible. 5 TO's and only 6 points, he is very frustrated.

68-39 with 16 minutes left.

Newton_14
11-05-2010, 08:50 PM
Is the game online or what? Interested to know how you are following the action.

kong123
11-05-2010, 08:52 PM
Is the game online or what? Interested to know how you are following the action.

watching online

kong123
11-05-2010, 09:00 PM
HB isn't playing well and just went back towards the locker room........


update= just a cut

kong123
11-05-2010, 09:04 PM
78 to 40

Bullock scores on a 2 on 1 and then hits an open 3 next time down the floor.

IrishDevil
11-05-2010, 09:05 PM
Thanks for the updates Kong. I'm actually glad to hear Zeller is playing well, his injuries were unfortunate and I hope the kid stays healthy (though, as a Duke fan who has questions about our interior defense, I'm maybe a little less glad than I would be otherwise :rolleyes: ). I have to say I am surprised about HB, have you seen anything specific that you can point to as a reason for his poor play?

Duvall
11-05-2010, 09:06 PM
Is it too early to proclaim Harrison Barnes the biggest bust in college basketball history? I say no.

kong123
11-05-2010, 09:11 PM
Zeller has over 20 pts and Kendall Marshall looks great. Incredible passer.

Barnes just turned it over again, he is beyond out of it

kong123
11-05-2010, 09:17 PM
94 to 52 with just over 7 minutes left.

John Henson has 10 pts with 10 rebounds and about 6 blocks
Zeller is getting close to 30
and HB has 7 pts and 5 TO's.

Newton_14
11-05-2010, 09:20 PM
Zeller has over 20 pts and Kendall Marshall looks great. Incredible passer.

Barnes just turned it over again, he is beyond out of it

Does Barton have any size in the frontcourt or is Zeller just dominating smaller players? Also, you have not mentioned Henson, so how is the thin man looking out there?

Interesting about Barnes. Would think he would be dominating in a game like this..

timmy c
11-05-2010, 09:21 PM
Zeller has over 20 pts and Kendall Marshall looks great. Incredible passer.

Barnes just turned it over again, he is beyond out of it

thanks for the update, Kong.

Count me as one of the many who was drinking the koolaid about HB. He was supposed to be so good that he looked like a man playing amoung boys. Should I put down the sippy cup?

kong123
11-05-2010, 09:24 PM
Kendall Marshall will challenge for the starting spot this year. He is a great floor general. He isn't blazing fast, but man does he make great decisions with the ball.

He threw a full-court pass to Zeller on the break, when they showed the replay from the end of the court, you can see that Zeller wasn't even looking or open when KM threw the pass. Zeller caught it in motion, dunked it, and was fouled. Great play!!

Henson looks a bit thicker, they say he weighs 20 more lbs than last year at this time

kong123
11-05-2010, 09:26 PM
9 assists for Marshall

timmy c
11-05-2010, 09:27 PM
is there a real-time box score for this game?

ajgoodfella7
11-05-2010, 09:31 PM
9 assists for Marshall

How would you rate the tempo at which UNC is trying to play?

jipops
11-05-2010, 09:34 PM
thanks for the update, Kong.

Count me as one of the many who was drinking the koolaid about HB. He was supposed to be so good that he looked like a man playing amoung boys. Should I put down the sippy cup?

uh, no. It's an exhibition, he's a freshman. There is still plenty of koolaid to drink.

kong123
11-05-2010, 09:35 PM
108 to 67


9 assists and 1 TO for Marshall, he only had 1 pt
Zeller had 25pts
Justin Knox had 13 pts
Henson had 10pts 9 reb and 6 blocks
HB had 7 pts, 3 reb, 4 fouls, 2-9 shooting and 6 TO's
Strickland and McDonald had 12 pt's a piece
Reggie Bullock had 10 pts
Justin Watts had 14 pts
Drew II had 11 pts.

bought all that I could remember

Barton scored a bunch at the end with the walk-on's in, so score is a little closer than it was. Worst bunch of walk-on's I have ever seen in a UNC uniform.

kong123
11-05-2010, 09:37 PM
How would you rate the tempo at which UNC is trying to play?

They looked really great in transition. Drew still slowly brings it up the court and you can see Roy waving him on to go faster.

One thing that is evident is that UNC looks for that outlet pass to get the ball up the court quickly. They scored a lot of pt's on that secondary break like they did a couple years ago.

timmy c
11-05-2010, 09:40 PM
uh, no. It's an exhibition, he's a freshman. There is still plenty of koolaid to drink.

<inserts sippy straw back into mouth...>

ajgoodfella7
11-05-2010, 09:40 PM
They looked really great in transition. Drew still slowly brings it up the court and you can see Roy waving him on to go faster.

One thing that is evident is that UNC looks for that outlet pass to get the ball up the court quickly. They scored a lot of pt's on that secondary break like they did a couple years ago.

So I'm guessing Roy's preference will definitely be to run with this team, at least as far as we can tell so far?

kong123
11-05-2010, 09:46 PM
you know, this team seems to shoot the ball well from outside. I think they made 7 or 8, but I didn't catch the exact number of made shoots. They did shoot a decent percentage from the outside.

They also looked comfortable in a half-court set with Marshall in the game. I would imagine the pressure is really gonna pick up for Drew going into next weeks game. Marshall outperformed him big time.

Everyone seems real impress with Justin Knox. He is a big dude and is very physical. He got tied up with a Barton player and ended up slamming him on the ground. I was surprised that nothing was called on Knox. He was fouled before that and it would have been a dead ball technical.

Zeller looks like he did when he was a freshman. He is running the floor with great freedom and he is diving on the court for loose balls. Hopefully, this intensity doesn't come back to haunt him.

MarkD83
11-05-2010, 10:14 PM
108 to 67


Worst bunch of walk-on's I have ever seen in a UNC uniform.

Kong no wonder you like DBR. Even when your team wins in a blow out you find something to criticize about your team. (Are you sure your not a closet Duke fan.) ;)

BoozerWasFouled
11-05-2010, 10:52 PM
Zeller looks like he did when he was a freshman. He is running the floor with great freedom and he is diving on the court for loose balls. Hopefully, this intensity doesn't come back to haunt him.

Thanks for this perspective. Be interested to hear exactly what was out of sync with Barnes.

SeattleIrish
11-05-2010, 11:08 PM
Is it too early to proclaim Harrison Barnes the biggest bust in college basketball history? I say no.

That made me laugh out loud, which doesn't happen too much. I was thinking the EXACT same thing, in an, "Wow...what would happen if this kid ISN'T an all-acc player?" Honestly...that question is a wonderful one to twirl around one's mind...

Yes, it is too early to have any certainty as to how this year will go. But, I don't think ANYONE would have predicted that Harrison Barnes would play this badly in his first game.

Without Barnes being an all-acc-caliber player this year, UNC could be very...ordinary. That would absolute explode some worlds. The turmoil in that universe would be extraordinary, IMHO. People would start asking questions. Questions that have always been stifled would bubble and then flow. It would be a brand new day in Carolina. A day we ain't figured would ever pop up under 'ole Roy.

Something to think about :D

s.i.

ACCBBallFan
11-05-2010, 11:08 PM
Does Barton have any size in the frontcourt or is Zeller just dominating smaller players? Also, you have not mentioned Henson, so how is the thin man looking out there?

Interesting about Barnes. Would think he would be dominating in a game like this..

http://www2.barton.edu/cgi-bin/MySQLdb?VIEW=/athletics/roster/view.txt&currentteam=6&SORTMETHOD=hw

Barton roster looks same size as Cal Poly Ponoma, one 6'9" guy and everybody else 6'6" or less.

Kedsy
11-05-2010, 11:29 PM
That made me laugh out loud, which doesn't happen too much. I was thinking the EXACT same thing, in an, "Wow...what would happen if this kid ISN'T an all-acc player?" Honestly...that question is a wonderful one to twirl around one's mind...

Yes, it is too early to have any certainty as to how this year will go. But, I don't think ANYONE would have predicted that Harrison Barnes would play this badly in his first game.

Without Barnes being an all-acc-caliber player this year, UNC could be very...ordinary. That would absolute explode some worlds. The turmoil in that universe would be extraordinary, IMHO. People would start asking questions. Questions that have always been stifled would bubble and then flow. It would be a brand new day in Carolina. A day we ain't figured would ever pop up under 'ole Roy.

Something to think about :D

s.i.

Other side of that coin is Barnes (and Henson and Zeller) come back next year with their great recruiting class and in 2011-12, UNC is a contendah. Personally, I don't think they're better than Sweet 16 this year, no matter how good HB plays, so I'd be happier if he's able and willing to enter the 2011 draft.

FireOgilvie
11-05-2010, 11:36 PM
Is it too early to proclaim Harrison Barnes the biggest bust in college basketball history? I say no.

I think he needs to spend more time at the gym... and less time on Skype.

Newton_14
11-05-2010, 11:53 PM
http://www2.barton.edu/cgi-bin/MySQLdb?VIEW=/athletics/roster/view.txt&currentteam=6&SORTMETHOD=hw

Barton roster looks same size as Cal Poly Ponoma, one 6'9" guy and everybody else 6'6" or less.

Thanks. Not slamming Zeller there either. The kid has shown throughout his career that he can score the ball. Just a bit easier to do that over shorter guys.

Not surprised at Marshall or McDonald and I think Marshall will take that starting role early in the year.

Kind of surprised at HB though. Not sure what was going on there. No doubt he will be a really good player though I would not have picked him to be a first team AA. I think that was a somewhat bizzare deal.

The real question though is did Henson display that amphibious 8 foot hook shot from 10 feet out he was so proficient at last year??:p:D

oldnavy
11-06-2010, 07:22 AM
I wouldn't read a lot into this game, just like I wouldn't read a lot into the Duke/Cal Poly game. Zeller is talented and you would expect him to have a good game against a small front line, although it sounds like a lot of his points came in the transition game vice the half court.

Barnes will be good, but this is what I was saying in the other thread, watch the pressure grow on this kid if he doesn't just dominate everyone out of the gate. It will be very interesting to see how he and the UNC fan base deal with it.
The only thing that I did notice that I think UNC may want to watch out for is the 15 turnovers. That is approaching the dreaded number (20) and it was against a DII school. I only mention that since it was such a problem last year, again may not be anything, but....

kong123
11-06-2010, 07:51 AM
the joke from the UNC faithful is it looks like HB is a four year player.

he just didn't seem to be in the flow tonight. he took a few shots that were forced and overall he seemed a bit sluggish. the guys on the bench really tried to keep his spirits up. i believe team chemistry is good this year, but if Marshall does take over the starting spot, what happens then?

arnie
11-06-2010, 08:18 AM
the joke from the UNC faithful is it looks like HB is a four year player.

he just didn't seem to be in the flow tonight. he took a few shots that were forced and overall he seemed a bit sluggish. the guys on the bench really tried to keep his spirits up. i believe team chemistry is good this year, but if Marshall does take over the starting spot, what happens then?

After reading IC boards on how bad Duke played the other night, guess we have no chance against the surging heels.

kong123
11-06-2010, 08:20 AM
Box Score

North Carolina 108, Barton 67

Barton: Dunn 4-9 2-2 10, Petcu 1-4 1-2 3, Boston 7-13, 2-2, 20, Haley 2-13, 2-3 7, Jernigan 4-7 0-0 10, Mammel 3-7 0-1 7, Brown 0-3 0-0 0, Maske 0-2 0-0 0, Guye 0-2 0-0 0, Velez 0-2 0-0 0, Dowdy 0-2 0-0 0, Shelton 1-2 0-0 2, Foster 0-3 0-2 0, Benitez 1-1 0-0 2, Coats 3-4 0-1 6. Totals 26-74 7-13 67.

North Carolina: Henson 4-8 2-5 10, Barnes 2-9 3-4 7, Zeller 7-13 11-14 25, Dexter 5-7 0-0 12, Drew II 3-3 0-0 8, McDonald 5-9 1-2 12, Bolick 0-2 0-0 0, Marshall 0-2 1-2 1, Hatchell 1-1 0-0 2, Cooper 0-0 0-0 0, Dupont 0-0 0-0 0, Watts 6-7 0-1 13, Knox 3-3 2-2 8, Crouch 0-0 0-0 0, Johnston 0-0 0-0 0, Bullock 4-10 1-2 10. Totals 40-74 21-32 108.

Halftime--North Carolina 57-35. Three-point goals-Barton 8-20 (Boston 4-5, Jernigan 2-3, Haley 1-6, Mammel 1-4, Petcu 0-1, Guy 0-1). North Carolina 7-18 (Strickland 2-2, Drew II 2-2, McDonald 1-3, Bullock 1-5, Watts 1-1, Barnes 0-4, Marshall 0-1. Fouled out-none. Rebounds-Barton 40 (Boston 6). North Carolina 53 (Henson 11). Assists-Barton 11 (Dunn, Haley, Mammel, Maske 2). North Carolina 28 (Marshall 9). Total fouls-Barton 25, North Carolina 18. Att.-14,259.


Read more: http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/11/06/784750/watts-gets-shot-to-replace-graves.html#ixzz14VJtOHcw

dukelifer
11-06-2010, 08:46 AM
After reading IC boards on how bad Duke played the other night, guess we have no chance against the surging heels.
Duke never should have played that second exhibition game- now they are exposed. Well we all have that great St Augustine game to reflect on. For that one special night- they were the best in the land.

sandinmyshoes
11-06-2010, 10:07 AM
I caught some of that game peeking over my wife's shoulder as she watched it online.

What I saw, Barnes looked lost. Deer in the headlights lost.

Marshall is the real deal at the point. I don't care about the competition, the kid gets the game. But, they'll need to hide his defensive liabilities in good team defense -- if they can. But make no mistake, he doesn't shoot like Jon, but he can lead a team the way Scheyer did for us.

Knox, from what little I saw, is an important pickup for UNC. Not just because of their lack of depth in the post, but because he appears to be a fairly rugged and physical presence which they totally lacked last year. He also looks to have a bit of a mean streak in him.

Other than that, I though McDonald and Strickland looked improved. Strickland's defense looked especially good.

I think one thing UNC fans will have to worry about is Drew becoming a poison. There's just something about that kid that makes me wonder if he won't become a problem if, and probably when, Marshall displaces him as a starter. Or take away starter minutes.

Any thoughts on that Kong?

kong123
11-06-2010, 10:13 AM
The only thing that I did notice that I think UNC may want to watch out for is the 15 turnovers. That is approaching the dreaded number (20) and it was against a DII school. I only mention that since it was such a problem last year, again may not be anything, but....

well, Duke had 14 TO's in their game the other night, so I would say there is nothing to worry about at this point. Its early in the season and we both have freshmen playing key positions. HB had 6 TO's all by himself, that will not happen every night. Perhaps it will never happen again. Also, because both Duke and UNC will try to get out and run this season, there will be more possessions. This means more opportunities for TO's and more opportunities for the opposition to score.

The one thing I took from last nights game is that several of last years freshmen seemed to have really improved their ability to score. McDonald looked very confident and also appears to be a much better athlete than I considered him to be last year. Dexter was looking for his perimeter shot more than last year, or at least he was making those shots. Everyone looked more confident. They all had a bit of swagger that was missing from last years squad. I know its an exhibition game against a Div II school, but you can read through the lines and see that there is more there.

The talk on the IC is about the PG position and how we seemingly have 2 competent guys to play that position. Roy mentioned in the postgame press conference that Marshall is making Drew better. Marshall is showing Drew different ways to get the ball up the court. Drew sees Marshall do things with the ball that perhaps doesn't naturally occur to him. That seems unbelievable to me that a PG that has been part of a NC team would still be learning basic things like getting the ball up the court quickly with outlet passes. I just think playing basketball at this level isn't a very comfortable feeling for him. I think he has to think harder than most players at his position, and because of this, there is a delay between the thought and the action. That's what I saw last year and we saw some of that again last night. Marshall is just a natural passer who has great natural instinct to add to that passing ability. Drew, not so much. But, he did shoot the ball well last night. He had 8 pts, 4 assists, and only 1 TO. That means our PG's combined to score 9 pt's, 13 assists, and 2 TO's. Doesn't matter who you play, if you have a couple of guards that are that efficient, good things will happen. Jon did that for you last year.

NovaScotian
11-06-2010, 12:36 PM
for purposes of (albiet probably irrelevant) comparison, by what score did duke beat barton in 2007?

timmy c
11-06-2010, 01:16 PM
for purposes of (albiet probably irrelevant) comparison, by what score did duke beat barton in 2007?

/fixed

no doubt this is irrelevant. But an interesting stat! Duke 105- Barton 44
http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1301960

Gthoma2a
11-06-2010, 01:16 PM
As for the Duke game, we are running at a speed that some of our players are still getting used to, but are very capable of picking up. The game we played was not so bad considering we could have beaten the division II champs by as many as UNC beat Barton by if we chose to (we pulled the main guys in favor of continuing to play around with how to use the second team more efficiently).

Now, UNC played well, but Zeller was against a small frontcourt, Knox was getting the Hansbrough treatment from the refs (according to Kong), Kendall didn't have Kyrie or Nolan guarding him (or even worse, him trying to guard them), and HB looked like he didn't fit on the team for some reason. This is what I find ridiculous with some UNC fans; they think their team is better to the point that they will push any illogical statement to skew reality to fit it with their complex. If IC or any of the nuts I know want to push their team as better, it seems the facts never stop them. Kong, you are a breath of fresh air in that respect. I thank you for staying within reality about your team.

DevilHorns
11-06-2010, 03:11 PM
Zeller, if he stays healthy, is the KEY to their year. They have very few who can play the PF/C. I liked his game since day one. Hopefully he can stay healthy for them all year long and play to his potential (but for obvious reasons stink it up when he plays Duke of course). I know it's just an exhibition, but wow, looks like he had a hell of a game.

timmy c
11-06-2010, 06:39 PM
Zeller, if he stays healthy, is the KEY to their year. They have very few who can play the PF/C. I liked his game since day one. Hopefully he can stay healthy for them all year long and play to his potential (but for obvious reasons stink it up when he plays Duke of course). I know it's just an exhibition, but wow, looks like he had a hell of a game.

Agreed. If Zeller stays healthy and can contribute 30+ minutes UNC will be good. If HB plays up to the impossible expectations, they'll be very good. If the guard play limits their turnovers, they'll make some noise in March.

That's a lot of "ifs".

Lord Ash
11-06-2010, 06:43 PM
Wow, this is an insanely long thread for a UNC exhibition game. Might it be more prudent to the resident Carolina folk(s) to do a single post-game post in which to collect all the relevant thoughts? It would make it a bit easier to read if it were all together instead of scattered over a bunch of posts. Plus, to be fair, I am not sure this is the best forum for UNC "in game" threads.

SeattleIrish
11-06-2010, 07:03 PM
Agreed. If Zeller stays healthy and can contribute 30+ minutes UNC will be good. If HB plays up to the impossible expectations, they'll be very good. If the guard play limits their turnovers, they'll make some noise in March.

That's a lot of "ifs".

I know this is still a long shot, but just imagine if Harrison Barnes, throughout the year, simply plays like a good freshman basketball player.

That would transform UNC into a very ordinary team. A middle-of-the-ACC team.

I will admit to some sense of schadenfreude should that come to pass.:p

s.i.

Jderf
11-06-2010, 07:29 PM
Wow, this is an insanely long thread for a UNC exhibition game. Might it be more prudent to the resident Carolina folk(s) to do a single post-game post in which to collect all the relevant thoughts? It would make it a bit easier to read if it were all together instead of scattered over a bunch of posts. Plus, to be fair, I am not sure this is the best forum for UNC "in game" threads.

Remember the "Carolina Next Year" thread? For a while it was longer than any of the active Duke speculation threads -- though Austin probably still took home the trophy for longest summer thread.

BD80
11-06-2010, 07:29 PM
... Marshall is the real deal at the point. I don't care about the competition, the kid gets the game. But, they'll need to hide his defensive liabilities in good team defense -- ...

But can ol' roy coach a team that without a pg that gets the ball down the court quickly?

ol' roy teaching good team defense. Snort. Good one! (Henson's length can erase a lot of mistakes - but I don't think ol' roy taught him to be tall or olng))

kong123
11-07-2010, 05:55 AM
But can ol' roy coach a team that without a pg that gets the ball down the court quickly?

A long pass will beat the dribble every time. Plus, if the long pass hits Strickland, who is equally as fast as Lawson (but without the ball handling skills), then we may actually be close to as good the 2009 team's transition game. We certainly have better athletes surrounding the PG position.

That doesn't mean UNC is a great team, it means that their transition game will not be dictated by the quickness of the PG. I believe our half-court game will be affected the most by that.

quickgtp
11-07-2010, 07:06 AM
Marshall is overrated. I don't normally come out and say that unless I have seen a kid play on numerous occasions. In this case, after watching him many times, I can say he is. He is slow, especially defensively, he needs to work on his overall shot - from jumper to floater - and he doesn't break traps very well. He can, however, pass the ball. Again, he hasn't seen D 1 collegiate-level competition, so we need to temper the expectations on the passing as well until he does it against quality competition.

Devilsfan
11-07-2010, 07:15 AM
"Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn." No offense to a local college but I think my sister could be an incredible passer against Barton College.

oldnavy
11-07-2010, 08:51 AM
A long pass will beat the dribble every time. Plus, if the long pass hits Strickland, who is equally as fast as Lawson (but without the ball handling skills), then we may actually be close to as good the 2009 team's transition game. We certainly have better athletes surrounding the PG position.

That doesn't mean UNC is a great team, it means that their transition game will not be dictated by the quickness of the PG. I believe our half-court game will be affected the most by that.

The problem with this theroy is that the pass has to be available. Lawson could and would create his own break with the ball. For the pass to work, there has to be a release by someone who gets behind the defense. This scenerio is easier to defend than a super quick player pushing the ball up the court past folks with trailers and other options. Besides, this play was available last year and the heels did not seem to capitalize. This also means that UNC will have to hold back a little on the defensive boards and I am not sure the frontline is that strong to allow this. Maybe?? Duke got burned a little doing this against Cal Poly. Not saying it will not happen but this is NOT a new option available to ol Roy.

As far as the turnover issue you commented on before, I agree it was a stretch on my part and most likely means nothing at this point, but it was about the only thing I could see in the box score that made me say "hummm..."

Looking forward to a great season arguing with you Kong. I get to say things to you that I cannot say to my wife without landing on the couch. ;)

sandinmyshoes
11-07-2010, 10:14 AM
The idea that Marshall is overrated depends on who is doing the rating. The kid is a legit division on player at the elite level. Who knows just how good he might become, but he is good enough to get playing time for any team. He's not just a good passer, he is a great passer.

His weakness is slow feet on defense, which will have to be compensated by anticipation *which he has* and good team defense *which is suspect.*

He can advance the ball upcourt with the pass quicker than anyone could hope to dribble it, and UNC has some runners at every position for targets. However, I won't worry about him taking the ball the length of the court with the dribble for a layup the way I did when we were facing Felton, and especially Lawson. But the kid might be more effective in the half court because he does have a deceptive crossover and is a deadly passer. His shot needs work, but he is not that far away from being an okay spot up shooter.

He did play in many elite level AAU games, so let's not kid ourself that his talents will be all that diminished by facing division one talent. I watched him a good bit at some of those games. I wouldn't want him over Kyrie by ANY means, but I do remember thinking I'd like to have him in a Duke uniform. I just love players that really, really understand the game.

I think he'll be annoying us for four years. One of those players who is better than his physical package would suggest. We'll get some hoots watching Kyrie break his ankles off the dribble during games, but don't be surprised if he is the kid that makes some key steals for UNC over the next few years

calvindog
11-07-2010, 10:33 AM
To think that the holes will be any kind of contender either nationally or in the ACC this year is just delusional. Yes, Henson is better and Zeller will no doubt be a stud for them this year. And Barnes and Bullock will be good. That being said, a team like Va Tech will tear them apart. As will we.

quickgtp
11-07-2010, 10:53 AM
The idea that Marshall is overrated depends on who is doing the rating. The kid is a legit division on player at the elite level. Who knows just how good he might become, but he is good enough to get playing time for any team. He's not just a good passer, he is a great passer.

His weakness is slow feet on defense, which will have to be compensated by anticipation *which he has* and good team defense *which is suspect.*

He can advance the ball upcourt with the pass quicker than anyone could hope to dribble it, and UNC has some runners at every position for targets. However, I won't worry about him taking the ball the length of the court with the dribble for a layup the way I did when we were facing Felton, and especially Lawson. But the kid might be more effective in the half court because he does have a deceptive crossover and is a deadly passer. His shot needs work, but he is not that far away from being an okay spot up shooter.

He did play in many elite level AAU games, so let's not kid ourself that his talents will be all that diminished by facing division one talent. I watched him a good bit at some of those games. I wouldn't want him over Kyrie by ANY means, but I do remember thinking I'd like to have him in a Duke uniform. I just love players that really, really understand the game.

I think he'll be annoying us for four years. One of those players who is better than his physical package would suggest. We'll get some hoots watching Kyrie break his ankles off the dribble during games, but don't be surprised if he is the kid that makes some key steals for UNC over the next few years

LOL AAU games and D1 TEAM basketball are two different things. Marshall will be good college player, and he is GOOD at passing, but he hasn't faced a college-level game setting. I am simply saying he is overrated (guys like McCallum and Appling are better, IMO) and UNC fans better not get their hopes up that this kid is going to come in and start from day 1 and be an AA pg.

kong123
11-07-2010, 11:05 AM
LOL AAU games and D1 TEAM basketball are two different things. Marshall will be good college player, and he is GOOD at passing, but he hasn't faced a college-level game setting. I am simply saying he is overrated (guys like McCallum and Appling are better, IMO) and UNC fans better not get their hopes up that this kid is going to come in and start from day 1 and be an AA pg.

no one is saying that KM is as good as KI. Everyone knows that KI is "Lawson like" and that he will give UNC trouble over the course of the season. OK? Got that out of the way?

That being said, for everything that Marshall cannot do, there are things that he can do that UNC currently doesn't have at PG. He is a great floor leader, he is a great passer, and he is a great teammate. Drew, IMHO, is a head case. I believe over the course of the season, KM's presence will cause he to play more consistently. The battle for starters minutes started Friday night. If Drew hadn't seen the writing on the wall in practice, he most certainly has now.

He gives UNC stability at PG and as a UNC fan, I am excited about that. He will push Drew II to be better and I am excited about that. Finally, Marshall is a great person and representative for UNC and college basketball in general. I am very excited and extremely proud of that.

sandinmyshoes
11-07-2010, 11:17 AM
LOL AAU games and D1 TEAM basketball are two different things. Marshall will be good college player, and he is GOOD at passing, but he hasn't faced a college-level game setting. I am simply saying he is overrated (guys like McCallum and Appling are better, IMO) and UNC fans better not get their hopes up that this kid is going to come in and start from day 1 and be an AA pg.

If expectations of being an AA pg is the talking point, then yes he is overrated. But I'm not sure there are very many basketball people, even among UNC fans, talking that.

While I do think that McCallum and Appling have higher ceilings -- possible NBA potential -- I think Marshall is better suited to run the point for a top 25 team right out of the gate.

Some of what is being said about Marshall by posters on this thread sound like the things being said about Jon last year by UNC types. Marshall is as good a passer as Jon was a shooter. Their physical tools are similar. Their feel for the game is similar. The key for Marshall, as it was for Jon, will be the team around him.

I'm certainly not predicting UNC as a Final Four team this year. But I am saying that Marshall is good enough to play for a Final Four contender were he surrounded by teammates with enough talent and experience. Just like Jon was last year despite all the naysayers among the Duke haters.

Gthoma2a
11-07-2010, 12:31 PM
If expectations of being an AA pg is the talking point, then yes he is overrated. But I'm not sure there are very many basketball people, even among UNC fans, talking that.

While I do think that McCallum and Appling have higher ceilings -- possible NBA potential -- I think Marshall is better suited to run the point for a top 25 team right out of the gate.

Some of what is being said about Marshall by posters on this thread sound like the things being said about Jon last year by UNC types. Marshall is as good a passer as Jon was a shooter. Their physical tools are similar. Their feel for the game is similar. The key for Marshall, as it was for Jon, will be the team around him.

I'm certainly not predicting UNC as a Final Four team this year. But I am saying that Marshall is good enough to play for a Final Four contender were he surrounded by teammates with enough talent and experience. Just like Jon was last year despite all the naysayers among the Duke haters.

I am sorry, but this is wrong to me. Jon was a veteran with a feel for the game that no freshman will have. Jon had a four year career to learn and Jon passed very well, shot the ball better, was tough as anybody, and, most of all, he didn't get lost on defense. Kendall can dream of becoming Jon Scheyer, but Jon Scheyer wouldn't have been THE Jon Scheyer his first three seasons.

Now, for Kendall, he may very well not even be the starter by the accounts of the coaches column that we all read. This was said to be due to Kendall showing as too slow against a decent team (UNC in practice). He had a better game than Drew II against a small division II opponent, but get a team that can defend the passing lanes and he is "about as useful as a poopy flavored lollypop." I tend to believe that he will get killed on defense. Also, when Zeller isn't the only guy who can get the high passes (remember that this performance was against a slower/smaller team), passing won't make up for lack of speed and creativity (Jon had to learn to play basketball like an acrobat). The reason that this is the case is that the pass can't react or change directions like a top notch point guard. Kendall would be best to run a system like Jon Had, but he doesn't have a half court team (Roy never does). IMO, as soon as the season starts, he will start looking like the guy who chose to flop rather than defend Brandon Knight's 3 at the end of the AA game.

BD80
11-07-2010, 12:41 PM
A long pass will beat the dribble every time. Plus, if the long pass hits Strickland, who is equally as fast as Lawson (but without the ball handling skills), then we may actually be close to as good the 2009 team's transition game. We certainly have better athletes surrounding the PG position.

That doesn't mean UNC is a great team, it means that their transition game will not be dictated by the quickness of the PG. I believe our half-court game will be affected the most by that.


... That being said, for everything that Marshall cannot do, there are things that he can do that UNC currently doesn't have at PG. He is a great floor leader, he is a great passer, and he is a great teammate. Drew, IMHO, is a head case. I believe over the course of the season, KM's presence will cause he to play more consistently. The battle for starters minutes started Friday night. If Drew hadn't seen the writing on the wall in practice, he most certainly has now.

He gives UNC stability at PG and as a UNC fan, I am excited about that. He will push Drew II to be better and I am excited about that. Finally, Marshall is a great person and representative for UNC and college basketball in general. I am very excited and extremely proud of that.

I am a fan of Marshall, I am not a fan of ol' roy. Marshall SHOULD get most of the minutes at PG, but I don't think ol' roy can coach the team to take advantage of KM's strengths. Marshall will generate fastbreak points, but he will not consistently pressure opponents with his speed down the floor, generating the secondary breaks that ol' roy emphasizes. Marshall would be able to get the ball to Zeller in position to score in the half court set, but ol' roy isn't comfortable with half court sets other than utilizing a pg breaking down defenses off the dribble and running off picks. Marshall isn't going to do that. Thus, I see LDII involved way more than he should be and KM stuck trying to run sets not well suited to his style.

calvindog
11-07-2010, 01:35 PM
He will push Drew II to be better and I am excited about that.

Line of the day.

timmy c
11-07-2010, 01:44 PM
To think that the holes will be any kind of contender either nationally or in the ACC this year is just delusional. Yes, Henson is better and Zeller will no doubt be a stud for them this year. And Barnes and Bullock will be good. That being said, a team like Va Tech will tear them apart. As will we.

I’m not sure about this. VT plays UNC once - in Chapel Hill on Jan. 13. I think it will be a competitive game – one of the many ACC match-ups I’m looking forward to.

SeattleIrish
11-07-2010, 01:47 PM
no one is saying that KM is as good as KI. Everyone knows that KI is "Lawson like" and that he will give UNC trouble over the course of the season. OK? Got that out of the way?

That being said, for everything that Marshall cannot do, there are things that he can do that UNC currently doesn't have at PG. He is a great floor leader, he is a great passer, and he is a great teammate.
He gives UNC stability at PG and as a UNC fan, I am excited about that. He will push Drew II to be better and I am excited about that. Finally, Marshall is a great person and representative for UNC and college basketball in general. I am very excited and extremely proud of that.

It's so cute to see UNC fans arguing for "intangibles"...:p

s.i.

p.s. - the "OK? Got that out of the way" was a bit snide for a rival to be posting on a Duke board, IMO. The rest of your post made your point - the snarkiness didn't add anything other than inserting a burr under the saddle, IMHO.

quickgtp
11-07-2010, 02:46 PM
no one is saying that KM is as good as KI. Everyone knows that KI is "Lawson like" and that he will give UNC trouble over the course of the season. OK? Got that out of the way?

That being said, for everything that Marshall cannot do, there are things that he can do that UNC currently doesn't have at PG. He is a great floor leader, he is a great passer, and he is a great teammate. Drew, IMHO, is a head case. I believe over the course of the season, KM's presence will cause he to play more consistently. The battle for starters minutes started Friday night. If Drew hadn't seen the writing on the wall in practice, he most certainly has now.

He gives UNC stability at PG and as a UNC fan, I am excited about that. He will push Drew II to be better and I am excited about that. Finally, Marshall is a great person and representative for UNC and college basketball in general. I am very excited and extremely proud of that.

Kong, where did I mention KI in my posts? Okay then, nothing to get out of the way.

You are giving Marshall credit even though he hasn't played a D1 game yet. Keep talking him up; it won't make him any better. As for being a good person? I do not know. I will not state an opinion on that matter.

If I were to start a collegiate team today and had to choose between Appling, McCallum and Marshall, Marshall gets picked last every time. Why? Because he has not proved anything, and does not (as stated) have the same ceiling as those two.

sandinmyshoes
11-07-2010, 03:03 PM
I am sorry, but this is wrong to me. Jon was a veteran with a feel for the game that no freshman will have. Jon had a four year career to learn and Jon passed very well, shot the ball better, was tough as anybody, and, most of all, he didn't get lost on defense. Kendall can dream of becoming Jon Scheyer, but Jon Scheyer wouldn't have been THE Jon Scheyer his first three seasons.

Now, for Kendall, he may very well not even be the starter by the accounts of the coaches column that we all read. This was said to be due to Kendall showing as too slow against a decent team (UNC in practice). He had a better game than Drew II against a small division II opponent, but get a team that can defend the passing lanes and he is "about as useful as a poopy flavored lollypop." I tend to believe that he will get killed on defense. Also, when Zeller isn't the only guy who can get the high passes (remember that this performance was against a slower/smaller team), passing won't make up for lack of speed and creativity (Jon had to learn to play basketball like an acrobat). The reason that this is the case is that the pass can't react or change directions like a top notch point guard. Kendall would be best to run a system like Jon Had, but he doesn't have a half court team (Roy never does). IMO, as soon as the season starts, he will start looking like the guy who chose to flop rather than defend Brandon Knight's 3 at the end of the AA game.

I'm growing tired of defending a UNC player, but let's deal with reality here. Marshall has, as a freshman, a better feel for the game than Jon did as a freshman. Marshall is as better a passer compared to Jon as Jon was a better shooter compared to Marshall.

Yes division one teams are better teams than AAU teams, but the best of the AAU teams that Marshall played against were similar athletically. So the speed, height and size gap between Marshall's AAU experience and what he'll face in college is not the gap you seem to imagine it will be. And right now, for this season, not talking two years from now, I'd take Marshall as my pg for that particular UNC team over McCallum or Appling. They badly need some poise from that position, and that's one of Marshall's strengths.

All that said, I am skeptical of such a young UNC team putting together a team defense that can cover Marshall's limitations as an on the ball defender, and Williams is probably too stubborn to use zone to accomplish this.

Now, that's enough defending a UNC player. I feel all dirty. But it drives me nuts when our fans read worst case scenarios into every aspect of potential involving certain teams (Like UNC, UK and UConn). It devalues the threads.

Edited to say that I don't think Marshall as a freshman will be as good as Jon as a senior. Far from it. Nor do I think UNC is a Final Four team this year. Sweet sixteen would be the most they could hope for, I think. Excepting for some fluke upsets that clear a path for them.

Gthoma2a
11-07-2010, 04:02 PM
My main point was that we need to see him play a high level college team like us or Kentucky (if they have Kanter) before we annoint him as a guy who "gets it." I also took offense to saying he would be like Jon because I know that Jon took time to develop, and his development is not common in any way. Jon was a SG who was made the primary ball handler his third year, he was 6'5, he was an amazing shooter, and he has nerves of steel. That was all I was saying. Kendall may be fine, but acting as though he is going to make UNC shine this year just seems a bit too far off for me to sit back and take. That coupled with his coach's style being as simple as Jenny's advice was to Forrest Gump ("Run Forrest, run!!!") will likely cause him to play against his strengths more often than if he went to a half court team. These are problems I felt inclined to mention for some odd reason.

oldnavy
11-08-2010, 10:06 AM
I'm growing tired of defending a UNC player, but let's deal with reality here. Marshall has, as a freshman, a better feel for the game than Jon did as a freshman. Marshall is as better a passer compared to Jon as Jon was a better shooter compared to Marshall.

Yes division one teams are better teams than AAU teams, but the best of the AAU teams that Marshall played against were similar athletically. So the speed, height and size gap between Marshall's AAU experience and what he'll face in college is not the gap you seem to imagine it will be. And right now, for this season, not talking two years from now, I'd take Marshall as my pg for that particular UNC team over McCallum or Appling. They badly need some poise from that position, and that's one of Marshall's strengths.

All that said, I am skeptical of such a young UNC team putting together a team defense that can cover Marshall's limitations as an on the ball defender, and Williams is probably too stubborn to use zone to accomplish this.

Now, that's enough defending a UNC player. I feel all dirty. But it drives me nuts when our fans read worst case scenarios into every aspect of potential involving certain teams (Like UNC, UK and UConn). It devalues the threads.

Edited to say that I don't think Marshall as a freshman will be as good as Jon as a senior. Far from it. Nor do I think UNC is a Final Four team this year. Sweet sixteen would be the most they could hope for, I think. Excepting for some fluke upsets that clear a path for them.

Since we are discussing KM's performance as a PG against AAU teams, we might want to consider most AAU teams do not emphasize or work a tremendous amount on defense.

KM may very well have played against elite level talent, but was that elite level talent being coached to play good man on man or team defense??

I think that will be the biggest difference KM will see at this level. Better talent (ACC level vs AAU) that is better coached in stopping what he is going to try and do.

Just because he looks like a great passer on the AAU circut doesn't mean he will be a great passer against teams that are defending the passing lanes and emphasizing ball pressure.

This is a slightly different scenerio than Kyrie's. Kyrie is a different type player, who will be able to take most anyone off the dribble and create offense. KM sounds like he is a little slow to do that and will have to rely on teammates getting in position to receive the pass while being defended.

He may become a great passer at the NCAA level, but I would wait until I have seen him play a few real games before I make the assumption that he already is.

COYS
11-08-2010, 10:39 AM
I'm growing tired of defending a UNC player, but let's deal with reality here. Marshall has, as a freshman, a better feel for the game than Jon did as a freshman.



I agree that those dismissing Marshall already are jumping the gun, but I think this statement here is difficult to defend, at this point. Jon's feel for the game was tremendously advanced for a freshman. At the time, we were running the offense through Greg and McRoberts. Personally, I'd want to know if that team would have been better if we had run the offense through Jon more frequently. Actually, I wonder the same thing about the 2008 and 2009 Duke teams. His offensive rating of 116.2 was tops on the team by a wide margin. Jon was also already a strong wing defender even as a frosh. If you mean "feel for the transition game," then perhaps you are correct. And if we're grading passing skills in a vacuum, then perhaps you're right, as well. That being said, Marshall has a lot to show on both sides of the ball to demonstrate that he has a better feel for the game as a freshman than Jon did as a freshman.

MChambers
11-08-2010, 10:39 AM
Since we are discussing KM's performance as a PG against AAU teams, we might want to consider most AAU teams do not emphasize or work a tremendous amount on defense.

KM may very well have played against elite level talent, but was that elite level talent being coached to play good man on man or team defense??

I think that will be the biggest difference KM will see at this level. Better talent (ACC level vs AAU) that is better coached in stopping what he is going to try and do.

Just because he looks like a great passer on the AAU circut doesn't mean he will be a great passer against teams that are defending the passing lanes and emphasizing ball pressure.

This is a slightly different scenerio than Kyrie's. Kyrie is a different type player, who will be able to take most anyone off the dribble and create offense. KM sounds like he is a little slow to do that and will have to rely on teammates getting in position to receive the pass while being defended.

He may become a great passer at the NCAA level, but I would wait until I have seen him play a few real games before I make the assumption that he already is.

I've been thinking that Marshall has certain similarities to Greg Paulus: highly touted in high school, but may just be too slow to be an elite player. Of course, there are differences. Paulus was hampered by injuries and also didn't have a great handle for a point guard.

sandinmyshoes
11-08-2010, 10:51 AM
I agree that those dismissing Marshall already are jumping the gun, but I think this statement here is difficult to defend, at this point. Jon's feel for the game was tremendously advanced for a freshman. At the time, we were running the offense through Greg and McRoberts. Personally, I'd want to know if that team would have been better if we had run the offense through Jon more frequently. Actually, I wonder the same thing about the 2008 and 2009 Duke teams. His offensive rating of 116.2 was tops on the team by a wide margin. Jon was also already a strong wing defender even as a frosh. If you mean "feel for the transition game," then perhaps you are correct. And if we're grading passing skills in a vacuum, then perhaps you're right, as well. That being said, Marshall has a lot to show on both sides of the ball to demonstrate that he has a better feel for the game as a freshman than Jon did as a freshman.

My statement should be read in the light of the point guard position. Jon was a two guard as a freshman. Marshall as a freshman will be a better point guard than Jon would have at that time. It was Jon's ability to adapt his game that elevated him over his career at Duke into a lead guard of a National Champion.

sandinmyshoes
11-08-2010, 10:57 AM
Since we are discussing KM's performance as a PG against AAU teams, we might want to consider most AAU teams do not emphasize or work a tremendous amount on defense.

KM may very well have played against elite level talent, but was that elite level talent being coached to play good man on man or team defense??

I think that will be the biggest difference KM will see at this level. Better talent (ACC level vs AAU) that is better coached in stopping what he is going to try and do.

Just because he looks like a great passer on the AAU circut doesn't mean he will be a great passer against teams that are defending the passing lanes and emphasizing ball pressure.

This is a slightly different scenerio than Kyrie's. Kyrie is a different type player, who will be able to take most anyone off the dribble and create offense. KM sounds like he is a little slow to do that and will have to rely on teammates getting in position to receive the pass while being defended.

He may become a great passer at the NCAA level, but I would wait until I have seen him play a few real games before I make the assumption that he already is.

I'm sorry, but a great passer is a great passer. The rest of his game will need work. If I were to consider some aspect of his game as overrated, it would be his handle. Oh, it's fine, but it's not at the level of Kyrie, or in UNC's history guys like Lawson and Cota.

He's not likely to rack up the assit numbers against ACC level defenses that he did in high school and the AAU, but it's very rare for any player to carry their stats over.


I should have just stayed out of this. But I hate when we act as blinkered on DBR as ICers and TDDers. It's as if giving any kind of credit to a kid like Marshall sets of some knee jerk reaction where all assumptions on his potential have to be worst case scenario.


Time will tell. Me, I give up.

CharlestonDevil
11-08-2010, 10:58 AM
I've been thinking that Marshall has certain similarities to Greg Paulus: highly touted in high school, but may just be too slow to be an elite player. Of course, there are differences. Paulus was hampered by injuries and also didn't have a great handle for a point guard.

Perhaps. I think the more critical thing to look at here is not KM's idividual abilities or potential, but how he fits in to Roy's system. His fast paced, get out and run only works when there is a a point guard who is 1) fast and 2) a reliable ball handler. Last year Roy had neither. This year he at least has a ball handler.

But how a "slower" PG runs the team remains to be seen. If KM cannot be a slasher or create off the dribble UNC still cannot effectively run the sytem they want.

timmy c
11-08-2010, 11:01 AM
It's fun to talk about the potential for UNC's demise again this year. This thread has moved well beyond the Barton game. I wonder if its time to start a thread to list all of the ways UNC could repeat last years catastrophe.

Duvall
11-08-2010, 11:04 AM
It's fun to talk about the potential for UNC's demise again this year. This thread has moved well beyond the Barton game. I wonder if its time to start a thread to list all of the ways UNC could repeat last years catastrophe.

That's pretty unlikely now that they have a couple of guys that can actually shoot. Best to wait and see, but don't get your hopes up for another year of glorious failure.

COYS
11-08-2010, 11:09 AM
Perhaps. I think the more critical thing to look at here is not KM's idividual abilities or potential, but how he fits in to Roy's system. His fast paced, get out and run only works when there is a a point guard who is 1) fast and 2) a reliable ball handler. Last year Roy had neither. This year he at least has a ball handler.

But how a "slower" PG runs the team remains to be seen. If KM cannot be a slasher or create off the dribble UNC still cannot effectively run the sytem they want.

We will see how much 'Ol Roy gets his team to use the pass to start the break rather than the dribble. Kong is right to say that the pass is always faster than the dribble. Jason Kidd is still the master at starting the break with a pass even though he is not close to the fastest point guard in the NBA. I don't think UNC reaches the offensive heights they achieved in the Lawson years (and I'm definitely not saying that Marshall is Jason Kidd), but I do think that Marshall gives them a weapon that, if used correctly, can help them dramatically improve their transition game from last season when they literally had no one who could lead the break effectively.

timmy c
11-08-2010, 11:09 AM
That's pretty unlikely now that they have a couple of guys that can actually shoot. Best to wait and see, but don't get your hopes up for another year of glorious failure.

Agreed. VERY HIGHLY UNLIKELY. But you can't really blame me for dreaming for a moment.

Kedsy
11-08-2010, 11:43 AM
Perhaps. I think the more critical thing to look at here is not KM's idividual abilities or potential, but how he fits in to Roy's system. His fast paced, get out and run only works when there is a a point guard who is 1) fast and 2) a reliable ball handler. Last year Roy had neither. This year he at least has a ball handler.

But how a "slower" PG runs the team remains to be seen. If KM cannot be a slasher or create off the dribble UNC still cannot effectively run the sytem they want.

How fast was Kirk Hinrich?

CharlestonDevil
11-08-2010, 12:27 PM
but I do think that Marshall gives them a weapon that, if used correctly, can help them dramatically improve their transition game from last season.

UNC can only improve after last season. Although I would prefer them to be equally as awful.


How fast was Kirk Hinrich?

True, but Hinrich was also a scorer, something that I understand KM is not and therefore brought a different dynamic to the game. So I'm not sure that comparison is acurate.

KM may be a great "floor general", my point is only that he does not fit the mold of Lawson or Felton which Roy prefers. Much like K needs a slasher to facilitate kick-out 3's, Roy needs someone to push the ball up the court and get to the basket. I don't see KM doing this.

MChambers
11-08-2010, 12:29 PM
How fast was Kirk Hinrich?

Faster than you might think. Fast enough to lose Jason Williams over and over again in 2000.

Kedsy
11-08-2010, 12:45 PM
True, but Hinrich was also a scorer, something that I understand KM is not and therefore brought a different dynamic to the game. So I'm not sure that comparison is acurate.

KM may be a great "floor general", my point is only that he does not fit the mold of Lawson or Felton which Roy prefers. Much like K needs a slasher to facilitate kick-out 3's, Roy needs someone to push the ball up the court and get to the basket. I don't see KM doing this.

OK, but my point was that Roy managed to win (albeit mostly at Kansas) without lightning fast PGs in the Felton/Lawson mold. I'm not saying Hinrich and Marshall are the same, but who cares? If he could win with Hinrich why not with Marshall?

The idea that Roy can only do things one way is a myth propagated by Duke fans, and in my opinion is just as invalid as the many stupid myths about Duke propagated by Duke haters.

Kedsy
11-08-2010, 12:48 PM
Faster than you might think. Fast enough to lose Jason Williams over and over again in 2000.

Hinrich may have been sneaky quick, but he wasn't particularly fast. Steve Blake made Jason Williams look pretty bad, too, on more than one occasion. That doesn't make him fast.

But whether or not Hinrich was faster than I remember, he certainly wasn't Felton or Lawson, and Roy's teams with Hinrich still managed to do pretty well.

MChambers
11-08-2010, 12:54 PM
Hinrich may have been sneaky quick, but he wasn't particularly fast. Steve Blake made Jason Williams look pretty bad, too, on more than one occasion. That doesn't make him fast.

But whether or not Hinrich was faster than I remember, he certainly wasn't Felton or Lawson, and Roy's teams with Hinrich still managed to do pretty well.

I'm not one of those who thinks that Ol' Roy needs a lightning fast point guard to succeed. I do, however, think that Hinrich was quick with the ball. From what I've read and the tiny bit I've seen, Marshall isn't anywhere as quick as Hinrich. Sounds like he will be a defensive liability and maybe not all that effective in the half court offense. Or at least that's what many of us hope!

Bluealum
11-08-2010, 01:03 PM
I'm sorry, but a great passer is a great passer. The rest of his game will need work. If I were to consider some aspect of his game as overrated, it would be his handle. Oh, it's fine, but it's not at the level of Kyrie, or in UNC's history guys like Lawson and Cota.

He's not likely to rack up the assit numbers against ACC level defenses that he did in high school and the AAU, but it's very rare for any player to carry their stats over.


I should have just stayed out of this. But I hate when we act as blinkered on DBR as ICers and TDDers. It's as if giving any kind of credit to a kid like Marshall sets of some knee jerk reaction where all assumptions on his potential have to be worst case scenario.


Time will tell. Me, I give up.

Please don't give up! There are MANY of us that read DBR regularly (since it started) that don't often post that really appreciate those folks that take the temperature down on all this frothing about our greatness and the inevitable debacle that is to be UNC's next season, the inverse of which was happening on IC the before last year. Threads about the an undefeated season make me wince and folks that counter that impulse are what make DBR better.

I for one don't get this hyperventilating approach. The best thing about last year's incredible championship run was how we did not expect flawless performances each night and appreciated the growth of players and a team. We could not have predicted that Mason would contribute so little, and Zoubs would contribute so much for example, and I for one did NOT expect a championship with anything remotely approaching the above scenario.

If we could not predict the importance and growth of a senior, how can we know how a freshman will perform? The smart Dukies let the heels talk themselves up and work to keep their expectations contained for their own team - at least that is the way I think and I am sure many other readers do as well.

Thanks for articulating that viewpoint well, even if it is in 'defense' of a Tarheel.

Kedsy
11-08-2010, 01:04 PM
I'm not one of those who thinks that Ol' Roy needs a lightning fast point guard to succeed. I do, however, think that Hinrich was quick with the ball. From what I've read and the tiny bit I've seen, Marshall isn't anywhere as quick as Hinrich. Sounds like he will be a defensive liability and maybe not all that effective in the half court offense. Or at least that's what many of us hope!

Hinrich was good (he's still in the League and playing decent minutes for Washington), and I've never seen Marshall play so I can't make a valid comparison. I have no idea if Marshall's any good and I certainly hope he's a defensive liability.

The only reason I brought up Hinrich (and it wasn't directed at you) was because it gets old hearing the same "Roy can't win without a superquick PG" babble from otherwise intelligent fans.

PADukeMom
11-08-2010, 01:11 PM
Is it too early to proclaim Harrison Barnes the biggest bust in college basketball history? I say no.

It was also kind of early to proclaim him as an All American too wasn't it?

thenameisbond
11-08-2010, 01:11 PM
I've actually seen Kendall play numerous times for the Boo Williams AAU team over the last several years. He and Andre played together on that team and I was mainy watching Andre.

I certainly wouldn't write him off as quickly as some seem willing to do. He may not have blazing speed like a Lawson or Teague, but he IS an excellent passer with a high level of court sense and feel for the game. He is an upgrade over LD imho.

oldnavy
11-08-2010, 01:14 PM
I'm sorry, but a great passer is a great passer. The rest of his game will need work. If I were to consider some aspect of his game as overrated, it would be his handle. Oh, it's fine, but it's not at the level of Kyrie, or in UNC's history guys like Lawson and Cota.

He's not likely to rack up the assit numbers against ACC level defenses that he did in high school and the AAU, but it's very rare for any player to carry their stats over.


I should have just stayed out of this. But I hate when we act as blinkered on DBR as ICers and TDDers. It's as if giving any kind of credit to a kid like Marshall sets of some knee jerk reaction where all assumptions on his potential have to be worst case scenario.


Time will tell. Me, I give up.

You really do not believe that defense matters in how well an opposing PG can pass the ball? I have to disagree here. I have seen many a good PG have trouble with turnovers when playing against teams that defend the passing lanes and provide very tight ball pressure. The question is can KM adjust to that. But you have to acknowledge that the quality of defense matters otherwise why would K spend so much time on teaching our guys to defend the passing lanes??

kong123
11-08-2010, 01:34 PM
absolutely, defense matters. also, the ability of the PG to adjust to that defense is key. no one knows how great KM will be or whether or not he will be a bust. I am taking a wait and see approach. I am excited that he is playing for UNC. I think that you can see qualities in a player, regardless of the competition he is playing. Also, in practice, he is playing against Div I talent and during the summer, he played against NBA pros that graduated from UNC. To that, everyone will say that defense isn't a focus of pick-up games or whatever. Point is, some of you guys will say whatever it took to talk him down. To me, that's pointless. He is slow and he reportedly lacks consistent scoring ability. But is that his role on the team? He doesn't have to be Lawson and he doesn't have to be Jon S. He just has to be as good as KM can be and I believe that means he makes his teammates better. Is he a liability on defense? Maybe, but do not forget that Dexter Strickland is as fast a player as there is in the ACC. Whether or not he can stay in front of KI is yet to be seen, but how many players are there that can claim that? KM at 6'4" may be better suited for guarding the 2 guard. Who knows how it all plays out, but there are options, unlike last year.

Starter
11-08-2010, 02:15 PM
Whether or not he can stay in front of KI is yet to be seen ...

I was at the Jordan Classic this year. This is not yet to be seen. Interestingly, Marshall was also the only player not to score in the game, though he did have eight assists and four steals (and six turnovers). (Box score (http://www.nike.com/jumpman23/classic/pdf/10nationalbox.pdf))

kong123
11-08-2010, 02:17 PM
I was at the Jordan Classic this year. This is not yet to be seen. Interestingly, Marshall was also the only player not to score in the game, though he did have eight assists and four steals (and six turnovers). (Box score (http://www.nike.com/jumpman23/classic/pdf/10nationalbox.pdf))

"Maybe, but do not forget that Dexter Strickland is as fast a player as there is in the ACC. Whether or not he can stay in front of KI is yet to be seen, but how many players are there that can claim that? "

Starter
11-08-2010, 02:34 PM
Not sure what you're getting at, I'm just saying I watched Irving eat Marshall's lunch in person. And sure, Strickland's fast. As a frequent attendee at St. Pat's games, good to see him back at his natural position.

kong123
11-08-2010, 02:55 PM
Not sure what you're getting at, I'm just saying I watched Irving eat Marshall's lunch in person. And sure, Strickland's fast. As a frequent attendee at St. Pat's games, good to see him back at his natural position.

My point was, I was talking about Dexter guarding KI, that is who I was "waiting to see", if DS could stay in front of KI, not KM.

nocilla
11-08-2010, 03:01 PM
My point was, I was talking about Dexter guarding KI, that is who I was "waiting to see", if DS could stay in front of KI, not KM.

I think that would be a better matchup for Dexter to guard Kyrie. Of course that would leave Drew guarding Nolan. Haven't we seen that matchup before?

Okay I just couldn't resist... And I apologize to Kong in advance...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCi6NnGd7aQ

Gthoma2a
11-08-2010, 03:16 PM
Kong says that Drew II will likely be replaced by Marshall, so it may be more like this (Kendall is in no way as good as Rice Jr yet)...

http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhJVP9nkMh45WARNTl

NSDukeFan
11-08-2010, 03:25 PM
OK, but my point was that Roy managed to win (albeit mostly at Kansas) without lightning fast PGs in the Felton/Lawson mold. I'm not saying Hinrich and Marshall are the same, but who cares? If he could win with Hinrich why not with Marshall?

The idea that Roy can only do things one way is a myth propagated by Duke fans, and in my opinion is just as invalid as the many stupid myths about Duke propagated by Duke haters.

I also believe the "Roy can only win with a lightning fast PG" is a myth that I would enjoy discovering is true, but certainly hasn't been proven true at this point. I think Roy wins more when he has more talented teams.

Starter
11-08-2010, 03:38 PM
My point was, I was talking about Dexter guarding KI, that is who I was "waiting to see", if DS could stay in front of KI, not KM.

Oh, okay. Had a bunch of "he's" in there, didn't know who you meant.

Regardless, I still like Kyrie's chances, and also those of whomever is guarded by Marshall.

oldnavy
11-08-2010, 07:20 PM
I also believe the "Roy can only win with a lightning fast PG" is a myth that I would enjoy discovering is true, but certainly hasn't been proven true at this point. I think Roy wins more when he has more talented teams.

To me the myth isn't that Roy cannot win without a lighting quick PG. To me the issue is will Roy recognize that he doesn't have the super fast PG and adjust accordingly. I certainly think Roy is smart enough to do this, but he hasn't always shown the willingness to do it. If he does play to his players strengths he can have a really good year. Last year I really believe that he wanted to force the pace and got stubborn when it wasn't working and essentially imploded.