Respect for the enemy

[JasonEvans]

People,

As always, we ask that you treat Kong and other rival fans with respect. They are welcome to post here so long as they as respectful of us and we expect the DBR community to treat them appropriately in response.

This is not to say you should not feel free to attack Kong's arguments with gusto (and factual responses) but make sure you do not make it personal and you keep a level head at all times.

Kong posted a theory about how things had gone down regarding Cook and Kabongo. Several posters here pointed out aspects of it that made the theory quite ridiculous. That is how the system is supposed to work. Let your arguments serve to rebuff Kong's content, but do not reject the man so long as he is posting within the rules (as I think he has been lately).

Lastly, a word about the vilification of Roy and K that comes from both sides of 15-501. It may just be my personal opinion, but I am growing tired of the belief on each side that the other side's coach is a bad guy -- the notion that K conspires to steal already committed kids; the idea that Roy gleefully throws his players under the bus and disregards their feelings when it suits him. It just gets old and it makes both sides look silly. What's more, it is just plain false.

Want to know reality? Roy Williams and Coach K are both brilliant basketball coaches. They both care deeply for the kids who play on their teams. They both want to win, are highly competitive, and they don't take it well when they lose. They both believe success is not only defined by wins on the court, but also by who you are off the court and what happens to you after you leave the program. They are, quite frankly, a lot more similar than most folks on the DBR or IC would want to admit.

If we could each be objective about it, if either school found themselves in need of a new coach I am betting there would be very, very few names (if any) that were placed ahead of Roy and K on a list of potential replacements. Look, I know it would never happen, but Roy at Duke or K at UNC would each keep the programs at their current high level and maintain the dignity and standards which have surrounded each program for many, many years.

I'll likely get some negative pitchfork rep for posting this, but I felt it was necessary as we approach the regular season. Things have gotten rather heated lately and I wanted to inject a little bit of sanity into the conversation.

--Jason "go ahead, slam away... I can take it ;) " Evans

[kong123]

Before I started reading and posting on this forum, I HATED Duke with a passion. As a UNC fan this "hate" is a natural feeling, but now I feel this hate has morphed into something else. First and foremost, I want to beat Duke so badly that the intense feelings associated with this desire, borders on hate. However, I do not hate Duke. Sure, I like to critique your coach, your players, and sometimes the way you end up winning a game, but in the end- I respect Duke. I respect your program, I respect your academics, and I respect the classiness of the fans. Do you respect UNC? If not, why?

I post here because on the DBR I have a voice. On the IC, I would be 1 voice in a sea of guys that try to build a reputation by saying outlandish crap or by boasting "inside info". I do not fit in over there, but I still read the forums because there is useful information over there. Here, I get to read about my biggest rival and then try and stand up for my team when I can. I am not here to argue with you guys. I have to be respectful to all of you because if I am not, I get a 2 day vacation. The mods have tried to help me navigate the waters here and I believe I am finally learning my way. I wonder how many of you would be able to last two years on their rivals forum?

There are members here who PM me and ask me what I am hearing on the IC. I gladly fill them in with what I am hearing and sometimes we even debate it. Our debate isn't combative. It is friendly and civil. I would like to thank those guys for realizing that I not just an idiot who wandered away from the IC, but a fan who loves the game of basketball as much as they do. I think that this is what the DBR should be.

[superdave]

Glad to have a different perspective on here. Look out for Wheat as well!

[PSurprise]

It's nice to see that there are a few rare reasonable UNC fans out there that actually respect Duke and their program. Personally, I enjoy reading your viewpoints and insight into UNC, despite the fact that I probably disagree with 90% of what you say. Your bias is clear, but that is expected.

It's good have some other opinions on the board-it certainly livens things up a bit around here. Thanks for your opinions and respectability. Now if you could just convince a few more (thousand) crazy and delusional UNC fans to look at things like you do...

I've always been saddened when UNC succeeds in sports because I was always brought up a Dukie and that what was indoctrinated into me. I don't hate UNC, I've just always wanted them to fail. I've respected their athletes and the jobs the coaches have done (BDavis notwithstanding) in their sports at UNC(basketball, women's soccer, etc). Having a huge rival like UNC, or like the Yankees in baseball makes beating them so much better, despite the fact that we all lose at one point or another.

For me, there's always been a difference though between UNC sports and UNC the university. I've always supported UNC as an upstanding university who, despite their athletic success, always put academics before sports. However, I must say that I've had to rethink my thoughts on the academic side of things after this whole football scandal...I would hope that Duke would not follow the path that UNC has led with this whole debacle.

Just my thoughts. Thanks for the thoughtful post.

[Billy Dat]

kong123 - this reads like one of those court-mandated apology letters. I believe it is sincere but seems like it was written at the point of a bayonet. I demand to see a photo to ensure that you have not been beaten senseless by the mods!!!

[-jk]

kong123 - this reads like one of those court-mandated apology letters. I believe it is sincere but seems like it was written at the point of a bayonet. I demand to see a photo to ensure that you have not been beaten senseless by the mods!!!

The mods had nothing to do with it.

-jk

[kong123]

kong123 - this reads like one of those court-mandated apology letters. I believe it is sincere but seems like it was written at the point of a bayonet. I demand to see a photo to ensure that you have not been beaten senseless by the mods!!!

sorry to disappoint, but I wasn't forced to write this. I wrote this to go into the MK thread but it was closed by the time I tried to post it. I just wanted to get this out there so that some of the guys that dislike me so much would perhaps realize where I am coming from. Maybe it will work, maybe not, but when you constantly get attacked or disregarded by these people, it gets old. I cannot fight back without paying the consequences so I decided to extend an olive branch. we'll see how it goes....

[wilko]

Nice thoughtful post.
Next time just send a check, some of the mods might appreciate that more.. :cool:
Keep it up and you are liable to win an application to become a full time fan.

I'm sure some of that was hard to write and admit. Honesty is always more respected. In that vein, I can admit that LOVE to see UNC fans tormented and miserable. It triples my pleasure when that torment is at the hands of Duke.

Growing up in Durham I was outnumbered almost 8 to 1. When Duke lost; the chatter never ended and it drove me bananas as a youth. It also gave me a think skin over time. So when UNC steps in it... I have no guilt whatsoever about pulling the trigger and emptying both barrels when I can. I have no beef with the institution or players by themselves. The vast majority of their FANS however irk and annoy me beyond belief.
So I take pleasure in their pain.

I don't know much about IC. Or other Bball boards... I think I would get bored by the banal ramblings, so I prolly couldn't last more than a few months.

Sometimes you have useful bits, other times it looks like you enjoy stirring the pot for shock appeal and reaction. Hard for me to tell.

I really have no issue when folks tweak you back. Sometimes you blow it off, sometimes you get a bit chirpy in response... You swim with sharks and you know you'll be bit at some point, yet you keep swimming in shark infested waters... It shouldn't be a surprise.

You are a big boy. You should know what you are getting and be prepared to take the heat when the time comes.

[Bluedog]

sorry to disappoint, but I wasn't forced to write this. I wrote this to go into the MK thread but it was closed by the time I tried to post it. I just wanted to get this out there so that some of the guys that dislike me so much would perhaps realize where I am coming from. Maybe it will work, maybe not, but when you constantly get attacked or disregarded by these people, it gets old. I cannot fight back without paying the consequences so I decided to extend an olive branch. we'll see how it goes....

I certainly appreciate an outside perspective and am glad to have a (mostly) sensible UNC fan on board. Reading your posts is doable and even enjoyable at times, reading posts on IC is like shooting myself in the face over and over again. Not that this is the best measure, but you have two pitchforks and no fire next to your name. There are quite a few Duke posters that have "fire" stating they're "infamous in these parts" so clearly people must be agreeing with your posts more than disagreeing (at least, those that choose to click the button!).

[BD80]

... Do you respect UNC? If not, why? ...

carolina blue

Mike Nifong

Mike Jordan (particularly now that he is washed up but refuses to go away)

Joe Forte

Ty Lawson

Mike OKoren (All ACC ugly)

Makhtar Ndiaye ...

Sure there are a lot of reasons to respect carolina (carolina co-eds!), that's what makes the rivalry so good, but I'd rather focus on what makes unc so fun to hate!

[diesel]

Kong 123, I've always appreciated your point of view on the bball rivalry between our schools.

But I'm really sad about the UNC football scandal and its academic aspects. I've always thought our rivals had a first class academic reputation and in a way I have cherished it.

But now, the Household Heel and I don't even discuss the rivalry anymore. I think she thinks the same way as I do.

I meant to close this epistle by telling you to take care, but I guess this would be especially galling given the source. The silence in this household is probably the way to go.

[MChambers]

It's like you never left. As far as I'm concerned, this board is a better place when fans from other schools post, including you. Track down Wheat, would you?

[1991 duke law]

Before I started reading and posting on this forum, I HATED Duke with a passion. As a UNC fan this "hate" is a natural feeling, but now I feel this hate has morphed into something else. First and foremost, I want to beat Duke so badly that the intense feelings associated with this desire, borders on hate. However, I do not hate Duke. Sure, I like to critique your coach, your players, and sometimes the way you end up winning a game, but in the end- I respect Duke. I respect your program, I respect your academics, and I respect the classiness of the fans. Do you respect UNC? If not, why?

I post here because on the DBR I have a voice. On the IC, I would be 1 voice in a sea of guys that try to build a reputation by saying outlandish crap or by boasting "inside info". I do not fit in over there, but I still read the forums because there is useful information over there. Here, I get to read about my biggest rival and then try and stand up for my team when I can. I am not here to argue with you guys. I have to be respectful to all of you because if I am not, I get a 2 day vacation. The mods have tried to help me navigate the waters here and I believe I am finally learning my way. I wonder how many of you would be able to last two years on their rivals forum?

There are members here who PM me and ask me what I am hearing on the IC. I gladly fill them in with what I am hearing and sometimes we even debate it. Our debate isn't combative. It is friendly and civil. I would like to thank those guys for realizing that I not just an idiot who wandered away from the IC, but a fan who loves the game of basketball as much as they do. I think that this is what the DBR should be.

Fascinating what you say. As a Duke fan I read and post on IC but it is difficult to do because they are so unreceptive (many, not all) to any voice other than Carolina. And it is often combative and uncivil. And in many cases incredibly jeuvenile. The banter on this board is a pleasure. Intelligent and polite.

I certainly respect Carolina as a school and I very much enjoy the campus and often stop by when back at Duke. I absolutely feel no hate. Posters like you are what IC needs more of.

[alteran]

The lesser team ;) expatriates are a cherished part of the DBR experience.

I hope you stay and continue to be a good poster.

Used to post on IC myself as Sympathy4TheDevil. That was years ago, though. When posters there gave me the "why are you posting here?" comment, I would always respond, "because there's more threads about Duke here than at DBR!" :D

Back then there were a few posters that were insanely knowledgeable about hoops, but the signal/noise ratio there got to the point where I eventually tuned out.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

If not, why?

carolina blue

Mike Nifong

Mike Jordan (particularly now that he is washed up but refuses to go away)

Joe Forte

Ty Lawson

Mike OKoren (All ACC ugly)

Makhtar Ndiaye ...



Ol' Roy
Generally whiny fans
Pumpkin costumes
...

[DukieInBrasil]

I'm not sure why anyone here would hate Kong. I for one like reading Kong's insight on UNC.
If you (Kong) honestly think that there are some DBR posters who hate you, feel free to ignore them, there's no room for hate on an anonymous message board. At any rate, I felt like your OP was kind of an apologia, which is unnecessary. You don't need to apologize for having a favorite team, just don't expect us to also like your favorite team. Other than that, I hope that you stick around and post here from time to time. It's always good to have a diversity of viewpoints.
Having said that, I hope UNC is terrible this year and has a repeat of last year, while Duke repeats its accomplishments from last year!!!
ps - do any of your IC "insiders" have any "inside" scoop on UNC's recruitment of Shabazz or JP Tokoto? Seems like both Duke and UNC are going after both of them, tho it does seem like UNC has the inside track on perhaps both of them.

[kong123]

Everyone feels good about Shabazz and most ICer's have forgotten about JPT once his stock went down a bit. If he has a good year this year and the chatter picks back up, I imagine he will be a favorite again.

[Class of '94]

Kong123,

As many have said, I too respect and appreciate you for coming here and posting your thoughts and perspectives in regards to UNC. And while I dislike all things Carolina (esp. Carolina blue :)), you have established yourself as a solid member of DBR; and I look forward to you continuing to post here on DBR in the future.

[DukeBlueNV]

Some UNC fans are well informed, reasonable and objective when it comes to the UNC/Duke rivalry. You, Kong are the exception, not the rule and thats where the hate for UNC comes from, the fans. I think we recognize and respect what the team at UNC is doing but the obnoxious fans that rub every little thing in your face whether it was a Duke loss or a big UNC win gets really old. Luckily, I think last year's team humbled those types a little bit but I'm sure once UNC returns to contender status those fans will come storming back.

Anyways I think its good for overall objectivity of the board get some point of view from a level-headed UNC fan...

[Faison1]

I fully support your posts, Kong. The last thread on MK was getting out of control, so I can see why you felt the need to explain why you are here.

Reasons to dislike UNC:

Passive/Aggressiveness of their alumni/fans
Adamola Ohkalaja (sp?)
Kris Lang


Reasons to like UNC:

My wife
The cheerleading staff
Antawn Jamison

[Olympic Fan]

carolina blue

Mike Nifong

Mike Jordan (particularly now that he is washed up but refuses to go away)

Joe Forte

Ty Lawson

Mike OKoren (All ACC ugly)

Makhtar Ndiaye ...

Sure there are a lot of reasons to respect carolina (carolina co-eds!), that's what makes the rivalry so good, but I'd rather focus on what makes unc so fun to hate!

I've never been a hater where Carolina is concerned. Nothing has irritated me as much as the disrespect that has grown between the two fan bases, which -- despite the pretentions on both sides -- are mirror images of each other.

In fact, so are the two programs ... sure, both have had their bemishes, but on the whole, there are the two most successful and CLEANEST programs in modern college basketball (I arbitrarily use 1985, the year the NCAA expanded to 64 teams, as the start of the modern era).

Both fan bases go overboard in love of their coaches and hate for the others. Dean with no Saint (although that's how he was viewed in Chapel Hill) and K has his flaws too (although try and get a Duke fan to admit it). It's funny to me that for years, UNC fans loved to rip K for his foul mouth (and it IS foul at times) ... then they got Roy and HE is the one constantly dropping F-bombs with a mike in his face.

There have been unlikeable players on both sides, but others who have been unfairly ripped. It's funny how much the UNC fans hated on Bobby Hurley, for instance, whereas he very easily could have played for them and he would have been loved for the same behavior that made him hated in Chapel Hill ... just as he would have been hated in Durham.

As for the list posted above ... you have some good reasons to distain UNC basketball listed, but I hope you were joking about Mike O'Koren. He's hated because of his looks? Really? That's on a par with idiotic Carolina fans who like to rag on Shane Battier's unusual hairline or our "Ratface" coach.

I think it's possible to base a great rivalry in mutual respect instead of hatred. The only thing I hate are those fans who embrace hate -- Will Blythe, I'm talking to you.

Yeah, I think Coach K is a better coach that Roy (or Dean for that matter), but it doesn't diminish him to acknowedge that the two Carolina guys are great coaches too. It would be more fun to debate the issue (since the facts are on our side) if you could eliminate the irrational hate that makes a rational discussion of the issue impossible.

Kong, I'm glad to have you on the forum. I'll probably disagree with much of what you say, but I welcome the opposing view. The Duke side has our irrational fans -- as I said, the Duke and UNC fan bases are amazingly similar -- but I think the majority of us welcome an oppositing view, even when we disagree with it.

PS Count me among the non-fans of Jordan. To me, he's tarnished his legacy as the second-greatest player in NBA history with his post-career arrogance. His acceptance speech at the Hall of Fame was embarrassing. And, I've just learned that he has refused to attend the induction of the NC Sports Hall of Fame, demanding instead that they honor him at halftime of a Bobcats game. Arnold Palmer, David Thompson, Dean Smith, Mike Krzyzewski and Sonny Jurgensen all showed up for induction, but Jordan is too big a jerk to do it.

[CharlestonDevil]

Kong, I respect anyone who brings well thought out arguments to the table, be it basketball, politics, or what to have for dinner. I appreciate your willingness to debate because your responses don't end with "Duke sucks" or "Where did Michael Jordan go to school?".

As for my feelings on the program, you have to respect their accomplishments. But it is the 99% of all UNC fans that makes me loathe anything in tarheel blue.
1) They are bandwagon fans - they dissapear when the program is down and WON'T GO AWAY when UNC is winning, especially if they beat Duke
2) They don't respect Duke's accomplishments. I can't count the # of times I've heard "Duke got an easy bracket" in the past 6 months
3) They pull for UNC b/c "Jordan went there"
4) They pull against the USA b/c of Coach K (yes, a majority of the ones I know actually do)
5) Any ant-Duke argument is based on "they flop", "they don't have anybody good in the pros", and of course "they get all the calls". ALL baseless arguments.

Of course there are specific players and Daggum Coaches that I severely dislike, but that doesn't stop me from recognizing the banners in the rafters.

[Greg_Newton]

Kong, let me start by saying I often do appreciate your posts. When you bring over tidbits about scrimmage results, player development, and general talk and sentiment over at the Carolina program, I genuinely do appreciate it. It's nice to have posters from the other side of the tracks here, and it seems just about all but you have fallen by the wayside since April - and I commend you for sticking it out!

I do have to be honest though, as I assume this is the thread for a civilized discussion on your persona. You certainly rub me the wrong way sometimes, in ways our former UNC posters did not. To me, it seems you have a tendency for taking subtle (and not so subtle) digs at Duke in many of your posts, and then trying to deflect responsibility for doing so when you are called out about it. You sometimes seem to adopt a holier-than-thou mentality when you feel defensive and are often off-base in telling us how we are hypocrites or we would act in certain situations. At other times, it seems that you develop a sort of childish mindset in believing that you're this innocent, benevolent martyr from IC being unfairly persecuted in unfair Duke-land.

For these reasons, plus the fact that your early days on this board were spent impersonating a Duke fan, I think fairly ridiculous the extent some go to dismiss any criticism of you. Not that it really matters, but you do have more "reputation points" than certain Duke posters here who have been around longer and whose body of work has been, in my opinion, more thoughtful and and reasonable than yours.

BUT, to close this as a compliment sandwich :p - to your credit, it does seem like you do genuinely take being a part of this community seriously and are doing your best to get better, and I respect that. I hope that you continue to do so, and try to really listen and consider the arguments people make against what you're saying, rather than assume we're always just out to get you because you're different. It's also important to distinguish between the posters that are genuinely interested in debating with you, and the ones that just want to have some fun at UNC's expense or take out their anger on their general fanbase on you. I think if you do this, you'll find that we're actually quite a reasonable bunch.

[OldPhiKap]

Boards are no fun if everyone agrees.

Kong's fine by me.

[DevilHorns]

Kong, I respect anyone who brings well thought out arguments to the table, be it basketball, politics, or what to have for dinner. I appreciate your willingness to debate because your responses don't end with "Duke sucks" or "Where did Michael Jordan go to school?".

As for my feelings on the program, you have to respect their accomplishments. But it is the 99% of all UNC fans that makes me loathe anything in tarheel blue.
1) They are bandwagon fans - they dissapear when the program is down and WON'T GO AWAY when UNC is winning, especially if they beat Duke
2) They don't respect Duke's accomplishments. I can't count the # of times I've heard "Duke got an easy bracket" in the past 6 months
3) They pull for UNC b/c "Jordan went there"
4) They pull against the USA b/c of Coach K (yes, a majority of the ones I know actually do)
5) Any ant-Duke argument is based on "they flop", "they don't have anybody good in the pros", and of course "they get all the calls". ALL baseless arguments.

Of course there are specific players and Daggum Coaches that I severely dislike, but that doesn't stop me from recognizing the banners in the rafters.

And the "bandwagon" fans aren't limited to the non-UNC alum community.

I'm talking about Carolina students here too.

My cousin goes to UNC (ya, I know, well at least he's a Robertson scholar so he spends a semester cleansing at Duke) and he told me that they literally had to push tickets on students last year for the Duke - UNC game at the Dean Dome. Their ticket raffle system was supply above demand for basketball games last year -- even for the biggest damn rival game in all sports!

Realize that UNC's undergraduate population is somewhere around 16,000 total.
I do not know how big the Dean Dome's student section is, but come friggin on. How big of a disgrace is that? They won the national championship the year before. ~12,000 or so of those undergraduate students experienced that first hand. It's not like they don't have a winning tradition. How can they not go to the game and support their team? Disgusting.

[rasputin]

I fully support your posts, Kong. The last thread on MK was getting out of control, so I can see why you felt the need to explain why you are here.

Reasons to dislike UNC:

Passive/Aggressiveness of their alumni/fans
Adamola Ohkalaja (sp?)
Kris Lang


Reasons to like UNC:

My wife
The cheerleading staff
Antawn Jamison

Another reason to like UNC: Mia Hamm

[gumbomoop]

.... but in the end- I respect Duke. I respect your program, I respect your academics, and I respect the classiness of the fans. Do you respect UNC? If not, why?

I post here because on the DBR I have a voice. On the IC, I would be 1 voice in a sea of guys that try to build a reputation by saying outlandish crap or by boasting "inside info". I do not fit in over there.... I wonder how many of you would be able to last two years on their rivals forum?

I'm not just an idiot who wandered away from the IC, but a fan who loves the game of basketball as much as they do. I think that this is what the DBR should be.

Yours is a heartfelt, serious post, seeking feedback. Herewith I offer some, which is, I hope, to the point [or several], empathic but constructively critical, and therefore helpful.

1. I definitely respect UNC, as a great university, offering numerous first-rate academic programs, and with a historically great basketball program. I've said previously that Dean Smith was a great coach. Roy might be, probably is, but last year raised more serious questions about him than I'd have previously thought possible. I assume he'll regain his stability; we'll see.

2. Classy fans - Yes, vast majority of posters on DBR; but as fanatics, we can hardly help ourselves in chortling at every Carolina mishap in '09-'10 and, preferably, in the future.

3. Hatred - Best look at this, for me, is Will Blythe's [UNC guy], "To Hate Like This Is To Be Happy Forever." Serious and hilarious. Highly recommended.

4. DBR v. IC - Your [accurate] description of the vast differences between DBR and IC, and your honest admission that you "do not fit in over there," makes the challenge you offer ["I wonder how many of you...."] problematic: you're trying to fit in over here, feel you get hassled some, too much, but admit that IC is a whole 'nother thing. Given your own critique of IC, why of course it would be somewhat more difficult for a "reverse-kong" to be accepted over there. [Yet, I acknowledge that in my own perusing of IC, I think I've noticed a few Duke-fans who do post over there. They receive lots more abuse than do you here.]



I just wanted to get this out there so that some of the guys that dislike me so much would perhaps realize where I am coming from. Maybe it will work, maybe not, but when you constantly get attacked or disregarded by these people, it gets old. I cannot fight back without paying the consequences so I decided to extend an olive branch. we'll see how it goes....

5. Most important, I think you misinterpret many of the criticisms of your posts. Though I would agree -without doing the meticulous research that this would require - that at first you were roundly disliked and/or attacked, most of those attacks were merited, because your posts were not carefully argued. More recently, perhaps as a result of your conversations with mods, you've tried to "extend an olive branch." [I]But I fear that when you say, "we'll see how it goes," you may be hoping for more sympathy with the substance of your posts than is likely to occur. I fear you will interpret this as "just more attacks," when I'd want to convince you that the vast majority of criticisms pivot on the poster's critique of the logic, internal consistency, and/or persuasiveness of your post. To disagree substantively with said logic, etc., is not, in and of itself, an "attack" on you. I do not deny that the tone of some posts that disagree with you are harsh. Several of mine have been. I do deny that, especially these days, most posters express their criticisms of your views in "harsh, attacking" language. Rather, many, not quite all, posters straightforwardly disagree with you, "on the merits.". Such disagreement, involving evidence, logic, persuasiveness is central to intelligent conversation, in turn itself central to academic discourse.

This is precisely why DBR is so different from IC.

[kong123]

you know, to most UNC fans under the age of 40, its really the Duke fans that have had so much to cheer about. Since your back to back NC's in the early 90's, Duke has been on even footing with UNC. After Dean left, Duke was on top until Roy won the NC back in 05. So, from that perspective, your fans have been pretty tough to deal too.

[SilkyJ]

I post here because on the DBR I have a voice. On the IC, I would be 1 voice in a sea of guys that try to build a reputation by saying outlandish crap or by boasting "inside info".

I don't think generalizing about our feelings towards UNC as a school or there fanbase is really the point here. I think the rub, which I also stated in the MK thread, is that you bring that "outlandish crap" from IC (YOUR WORDS NOT MINE) over here when clearly, as you just stated, you are aware that its crap.

I guess where we differ is that you think only most of of the IC theories/rumors are "outlandish crap" whereas I think pretty much all of it is "outlandish crap."

But it looks like we're in agreement that the term "inside info" on IC is about as useful as a poopy-flavored lollipop (come-on, that's funny...)

What that means, to me, is that those particular posts from you are not worth reading. Not all of your posts -- you are knowledgeable about bball in general and have contributed in various discussions -- but the ones where you tell us these supposed theories and rumors and "inside info" from IC. Not worth reading, imo.



There are members here who PM me and ask me what I am hearing on the IC.

This BAFFLES me. By your own admission, IC is mostly full of garbage and people here want to know what goes on there?!


I wonder how many of you would be able to last two years on their rivals forum?

Well part of the time you pretended to be a Duke fan...

In sum I would say that when you contribute in discussions as an "analyst" or offer opinions I find your posts to be fine. When you try to "inform" based on "outlandish crap" you heard at IC, is when you find yourself engaging in these arguments.

[SeattleIrish]

Is Kong really the only UNC fan who posts on this board? I know he seems to have the highest profile, but I always assumed there were more. I couldn't name any of them, and Kong is being specifically mentioned repeatedly, so I assume he's the only one; I wonder why.

Do we (DBR) ban a lot of the UNC posters? I know DBR's previous message board was viewed as being "user un-friendly" by some, but the board structure (immediate posting) has been changed for quite a while. Are we perceived as hostile to opposing fans? That doesn't seem to be the feedback from most folks.

I posted on IC for quite a few years, for reasons much the same as Kong's, but was banned a while back. I do still read IC and there do seem to be more than a handful of Duke fans posting there. Any guesses as to why Kong is the sole light blue rep?

s.i.

[Duvall]

Is Kong really the only UNC fan who posts on this board? I know he seems to have the highest profile, but I always assumed there were more. I couldn't name any of them, and Kong is being specifically mentioned repeatedly, so I assume he's the only one; I wonder why.

Do we (DBR) ban a lot of the UNC posters? I know DBR's previous message board was viewed as being "user un-friendly" by some, but the board structure (immediate posting) has been changed for quite a while. Are we perceived as hostile to opposing fans? That doesn't seem to be the feedback from most folks.

I posted on IC for quite a few years, for reasons much the same as Kong's, but was banned a while back. I do still read IC and there do seem to be more than a handful of Duke fans posting there. Any guesses as to why Kong is the sole light blue rep?

s.i.

82-50.

No, some of the other Heel fans have been posting on and off. I don't think anyone's been banned. We'll probably see more from them once the hoops season starts.

[SilkyJ]

Is Kong really the only UNC fan who posts on this board?

No. Wheat (I think his handle is like "*/*/Wheat" or something and "eightyearoldsdude" are two other UNC posters. Both have been noticably absent for about 7 months ;) )



Do we (DBR) ban a lot of the UNC posters?

I'm not a mod, but NO. We don't ban anyone based on their fan allegiance.

Now it may be that a higher % UNC fans get banned than anyone else, but that's likely b/c they are being uncivil and just trying to rile us up, etc.

[mkline09]

Before I started reading and posting on this forum, I HATED Duke with a passion. As a UNC fan this "hate" is a natural feeling, but now I feel this hate has morphed into something else. First and foremost, I want to beat Duke so badly that the intense feelings associated with this desire, borders on hate. However, I do not hate Duke. Sure, I like to critique your coach, your players, and sometimes the way you end up winning a game, but in the end- I respect Duke. I respect your program, I respect your academics, and I respect the classiness of the fans. Do you respect UNC? If not, why?

I post here because on the DBR I have a voice. On the IC, I would be 1 voice in a sea of guys that try to build a reputation by saying outlandish crap or by boasting "inside info". I do not fit in over there, but I still read the forums because there is useful information over there. Here, I get to read about my biggest rival and then try and stand up for my team when I can. I am not here to argue with you guys. I have to be respectful to all of you because if I am not, I get a 2 day vacation. The mods have tried to help me navigate the waters here and I believe I am finally learning my way. I wonder how many of you would be able to last two years on their rivals forum?

There are members here who PM me and ask me what I am hearing on the IC. I gladly fill them in with what I am hearing and sometimes we even debate it. Our debate isn't combative. It is friendly and civil. I would like to thank those guys for realizing that I not just an idiot who wandered away from the IC, but a fan who loves the game of basketball as much as they do. I think that this is what the DBR should be.

I for one am always interested in reading your take. I like you want to see my team beat your team each and every time. I don't always like everything about UNC but I respect their program and I always respect fans ability to agree to disagree and have a cordial if not passionate discourse about it.

I think those who just blindly hate because it is the rival just don't get the big picture regarding sports. Hate is a very strong word and should not be tossed around in sports. You hate cancer, you hate injustice, you don't hate a bunch of college kids trying to be successful. You may dislike the coach and even some players but saying you hate a kid for playing a sport just is illogical and a clear indication of some serious social disorder.

I'm glad you do post and feel welcome to post here. Just because we don't see eye to eye on a team doesn't mean we can't be civil.

[NSDukeFan]

Is Kong really the only UNC fan who posts on this board? I know he seems to have the highest profile, but I always assumed there were more. I couldn't name any of them, and Kong is being specifically mentioned repeatedly, so I assume he's the only one; I wonder why.
...



No. Wheat (I think his handle is like "*/*/Wheat" or something and "eightyearoldsdude" are two other UNC posters. Both have been noticably absent for about 7 months ;) )
...

I would add I believe shoutingunc is another contributor that has had some pretty good posts here as well.

[MCFinARL]

PS Count me among the non-fans of Jordan. To me, he's tarnished his legacy as the second-greatest player in NBA history with his post-career arrogance. His acceptance speech at the Hall of Fame was embarrassing. And, I've just learned that he has refused to attend the induction of the NC Sports Hall of Fame, demanding instead that they honor him at halftime of a Bobcats game. Arnold Palmer, David Thompson, Dean Smith, Mike Krzyzewski and Sonny Jurgensen all showed up for induction, but Jordan is too big a jerk to do it.

So I know I'm getting off thread topic, but the question begs to be asked: who are you counting as the greatest player in NBA history? Bill Russell? Kareem? Kobe? LeBron? Somebody else?

[sagegrouse]

I would add I believe shoutingunc is another contributor that has had some pretty good posts here as well.

Also, "ClosetHurleyFan."

sagegrouse

[Kedsy]

So I know I'm getting off thread topic, but the question begs to be asked: who are you counting as the greatest player in NBA history? Bill Russell? Kareem? Kobe? LeBron? Somebody else?

Wilt?

As far as Kong goes, I think he's unfairly attacked a lot of the time. I also think he sometimes feels persecuted when confronted with rivalry banter, but we can hardly blame him for being overly sensitive in his situation. I appreciate a healthy percentage of his posts, and I enjoy hearing the UNC perspective from a non-Duke-hater (or at least someone who doesn't outwardly show his hate/dislike/whatever most of the time).


Lastly, a word about the vilification of Roy and K that comes from both sides of 15-501. It may just be my personal opinion, but I am growing tired of the belief on each side that the other side's coach is a bad guy -- the notion that K conspires to steal already committed kids; the idea that Roy gleefully throws his players under the bus and disregards their feelings when it suits him. It just gets old and it makes both sides look silly. What's more, it is just plain false.

I completely agree with this. I am so sick and tired of constantly hearing the same rips against Roy. I don't necessarily like the guy and, yes, his country boy act is tiresome, and I think K is a much better person and coach, but I wish people wouldn't trot out the same old crap every time he opens his mouth. He's a hall of fame coach and for the most part he looks out for his players' best welfare. There are more interesting things to discuss.

[kong123]

I don't think generalizing about our feelings towards UNC as a school or there fanbase is really the point here. I think the rub, which I also stated in the MK thread, is that you bring that "outlandish crap" from IC (YOUR WORDS NOT MINE) over here when clearly, as you just stated, you are aware that its crap.

I guess where we differ is that you think only most of of the IC theories/rumors are "outlandish crap" whereas I think pretty much all of it is "outlandish crap."

But it looks like we're in agreement that the term "inside info" on IC is about as useful as a poopy-flavored lollipop (come-on, that's funny...)

What that means, to me, is that those particular posts from you are not worth reading. Not all of your posts -- you are knowledgeable about bball in general and have contributed in various discussions -- but the ones where you tell us these supposed theories and rumors and "inside info" from IC. Not worth reading, imo.


You are so smug and condescending with your posts towards me and towards UNC in general. Not everything on IC is crap. There is a lot of useful info on the site, but amongst all the useful info are a bunch of guys basically having fun. I am capable of sifting through that nonsense and finding the diamonds in the rough. You on the other hand, throw it all in the same garbage can and label it as such. You are wrong sir.

The one thing we can both agree on is that neither of us have 1st hand inside info. Both of us get our info from stuff we read on forums or articles that we agree with. If something is slanted any other way than Duke you discount it. That is fine, but sitting there and acting all high and mighty is both hypocritical and disrespectful to guys who aren't as biased or have the need to be as arguementitive as you.

Please stop responding to my posts. If they are garbage, the way you claim they are, then why waste your time?

[SilkyJ]

I am capable of sifting through that nonsense and finding the diamonds in the rough.

Well I think your latest example speaks otherwise. If you think the story about Ol Roy going hatching a grand scheme to keep MK from coming to Duke is a "diamond in the rough" then we'll have to agree to disagree.



If something is slanted any other way than Duke you discount it.

No. My mantra is "In Airowe I trust." If something from IC is in contrast to something he or Watzone (or Jim, or a handful of others) have said, then I discount it.

I can't remember how many times this exchange has occurred:

Kong: "XXX on IC said this...Airowe or others- can you confirm"
Airowe: "Never heard that"

....and Airowe turns out to be right. If IC stuff is constantly being shotdown by our insiders, who are eventually proven right, why should I pay it any attention?


If they are garbage, the way you claim they are, then why waste your time?

B/c I feel it is incumbent upon me as an avid, enthusiastic, and respected member of the board to call it like I see it, especially when my thoughts/feelings are in stark contrast to a particular post. Your posts are hardly the only ones I call out.

[77devil]

You are so smug and condescending with your posts towards me and towards UNC in general. Not everything on IC is crap. There is a lot of useful info on the site, but amongst all the useful info are a bunch of guys basically having fun. I am capable of sifting through that nonsense and finding the diamonds in the rough. You on the other hand, throw it all in the same garbage can and label it as such. You are wrong sir.

The one thing we can both agree on is that neither of us have 1st hand inside info. Both of us get our info from stuff we read on forums or articles that we agree with. If something is slanted any other way than Duke you discount it. That is fine, but sitting there and acting all high and mighty is both hypocritical and disrespectful to guys who aren't as biased or have the need to be as arguementitive as you.

Please stop responding to my posts. If they are garbage, the way you claim they are, then why waste your time?

Your response above to Silky J was over the top IMO. My suggestion is to be more selective in what you post. Surely you appreciate that if you convey a provocative rumor without substantiation, such as the supposed Roy ploy with QC and MK, you are going to be strongly rebutted. I remember similar episodes in the Austin River's thread and others.

The fact that you initially pretended to be a Duke fan is not lost on some. If you have facts or information from a reputable source, a learned opinion, bring it on. But if you want to mix it up with rumor and innuendo, I think you've learned what to expect.

[Olympic Fan]

So I know I'm getting off thread topic, but the question begs to be asked: who are you counting as the greatest player in NBA history? Bill Russell? Kareem? Kobe? LeBron? Somebody else?

Not to take the thread off topic, but IMHO there's no contest -- Bill Russell is the greatest winner (and isn't that's what it's about). He wasn't some hanger on or a small part of a bunch of great teams, he was the guy who made them win -- Boston never won anything (not even an Eastern title) before Russell ... they win 10 of the 12 years he stars for them -- then they finish under .500 the year after he leaves.

If you want to debate this, we can start another thread ... I'll be happy to join in.

[SeattleIrish]

Not to take the thread off topic, but IMHO there's no contest -- Bill Russell is the greatest winner (and isn't that's what it's about). He wasn't some hanger on or a small part of a bunch of great teams, he was the guy who made them win -- Boston never won anything (not even an Eastern title) before Russell ... they win 10 of the 12 years he stars for them -- then they finish under .500 the year after he leaves.

If you want to debate this, we can start another thread ... I'll be happy to join in.

I always side with Wilt on this issue, particularly when compared with Russell:

"According to Philadelphia76ers stat man Harvey Pollack, Chamberlain and Russell played head-to-head a total of 142 times. In those matchups, Wilt averaged 28.7 PPG and 28.7 RPG. Russell, on the other hand, averaged 23.7 PPG, and 14.5 RPG.



What’s of note is that Chamberlain’s career rebounding average was 22.9 RPG, while Russell’s was 22.5 RPG. Appears Wilt destroyed Bill on the boards any time he faced him." - Russell's 14.5RPG looks great until you see Wilt held him 8 RPG under his average!

However, I don't see the Kong/Silky match up as quite Chamberlain/Russell. Perhaps more like Elvin Hayes/Bob Pettit...

:p

s.i.

[Poincaré]

People,
--Jason "go ahead, slam away... I can take it ;) " Evans

We should treat kong with respect because he's a human being. However, there is no need to respect Carolina. We shouldn't respect Carolina. We should have nothing but disdain for Carolina. On the old DBR, there used to be a poster who used "Carolina delenda est" as his signature. That is the one and only proper sentiment. DESTROY! The all-caps is intentional.

It really shocks me how soft we are getting. I hate to bring this up, but Carolina still leads us in all-time wins. That is unacceptable. DESTROY! And salt the earth so that nothing may grow on that cursed land again.

This is a holy war, not some friendly country club rivalry.

Yes. I am a little bit crazy, but it's an insanity born of necessity.

[cato]

On the old DBR, there used to be a poster who used "Carolina delenda est" as his signature.


Still here! My ancient Roman ancestor would probably be disappointed that I dropped the old sig, though. The story of Cato ending each speach to the Senate with "Cartago Delendo Est" was as much about persistence and clarity of purpose as much as anything, as I see it.

[CharlestonDevil]

We shouldn't respect Carolina. We should have nothing but disdain for Carolina.

This is a holy war, not some friendly country club rivalry.

Yes. I am a little bit crazy, but it's an insanity born of necessity.

That is the most sane thing I have seen posted. Long live the Lemma! And Coach K.

[jimsumner]

I always side with Wilt on this issue, particularly when compared with Russell:

"According to Philadelphia76ers stat man Harvey Pollack, Chamberlain and Russell played head-to-head a total of 142 times. In those matchups, Wilt averaged 28.7 PPG and 28.7 RPG. Russell, on the other hand, averaged 23.7 PPG, and 14.5 RPG.



What’s of note is that Chamberlain’s career rebounding average was 22.9 RPG, while Russell’s was 22.5 RPG. Appears Wilt destroyed Bill on the boards any time he faced him." - Russell's 14.5RPG looks great until you see Wilt held him 8 RPG under his average!

However, I don't see the Kong/Silky match up as quite Chamberlain/Russell. Perhaps more like Elvin Hayes/Bob Pettit...

:p

s.i.

Are you sure Russell's rebounding and scoring averages aren't reversed here?

It should be noted that Russell also won two NCAA titles at San Francisco and was the key player on the 1956 Gold Medal Olympic team.

Russell was the most successful team sport athlete in North American sports history.

Chamberlain was the most statistically successful team sport athlete in North American sports history, with the probable exception of Babe Ruth. IMO.

But as great as he was, his teams still only one two NBA titles, only one while Russell was still playing. This was with guys like Hal Greer, Chet Walker, Billy Cunningham, Nate Thurmond, Tom Gola, Guy Rodgers, Jerry West and Elgin Baylor as teammates.

Apples and Oranges perhaps.

And Oscar Robertson belongs in the discussion. Maybe Kareem.

[Olympic Fan]

Are you sure Russell's rebounding and scoring averages aren't reversed here?

It should be noted that Russell also won two NCAA titles at San Francisco and was the key player on the 1956 Gold Medal Olympic team.

Russell was the most successful team sport athlete in North American sports history.

Chamberlain was the most statistically successful team sport athlete in North American sports history, with the probable exception of Babe Ruth. IMO.

But as great as he was, his teams still only one two NBA titles, only one while Russell was still playing. This was with guys like Hal Greer, Chet Walker, Billy Cunningham, Nate Thurmond, Tom Gola, Guy Rodgers, Jerry West and Elgin Baylor as teammates.

Apples and Oranges perhaps.

And Oscar Robertson belongs in the discussion. Maybe Kareem.

Start a new thread and I'll come back to defend my pick (although the idea that Wilt would be ahead of Russell -- or Jordan -- is a joke. stats are great -- Wilt was all about stats, while Russell was all about winning)

[jimsumner]

Start a new thread and I'll come back to defend my pick (although the idea that Wilt would be ahead of Russell -- or Jordan -- is a joke. stats are great -- Wilt was all about stats, while Russell was all about winning)

Just curious but did you actually read the post you referenced? The part where I called Russell "the most successful team sport athlete in North American sports history?" This seemed like a dis to you? Or the part where I chided Chamberlain for his inability to win titles with talented teammates?

You do realize that I was agreeing with you. Don't you?

[Olympic Fan]

Just curious but did you actually read the post you referenced? The part where I called Russell "the most successful team sport athlete in North American sports history?" This seemed like a dis to you? Or the part where I chided Chamberlain for his inability to win titles with talented teammates?

You do realize that I was agreeing with you. Don't you?

Sorry ... the wilt comments were directed at Seattle Irish ... I quoted your article because I wanted to take the discussion to another thread (it really doesn't have a place in this one) ... but I had to had the jibe about Wilt (because the idea that he's better than Russell is SO ludicrous).

But I promise, this will be the last time I post in this thread on the Russell issue ... if anybody wants to talk about it, start a new thread.

[NSDukeFan]

Are you sure Russell's rebounding and scoring averages aren't reversed here?

It should be noted that Russell also won two NCAA titles at San Francisco and was the key player on the 1956 Gold Medal Olympic team.

Russell was the most successful team sport athlete in North American sports history.

Chamberlain was the most statistically successful team sport athlete in North American sports history, with the probable exception of Babe Ruth. IMO.

But as great as he was, his teams still only one two NBA titles, only one while Russell was still playing. This was with guys like Hal Greer, Chet Walker, Billy Cunningham, Nate Thurmond, Tom Gola, Guy Rodgers, Jerry West and Elgin Baylor as teammates.

Apples and Oranges perhaps.

And Oscar Robertson belongs in the discussion. Maybe Kareem.

I really enjoy this discussion and knew right away OlyFan's #1 was Russell and think he makes a compelling argument as does Jim. I always feel Kareem should be in that discussion as well.

But I believe this argument has all been rendered moot, as winning is no longer the most important thing in sports. It is being a facilitator to help talented basketball players get to the NBA with as little academia getting in the way as possible. Or, at least that appears to be what one coach believes.
http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?22882-SI.com-Calipari-Slight...what-a-joke...

To get back on topic, I think I most agree with Kedsy and Jason's takes:
Kedsy's

As far as Kong goes, I think he's unfairly attacked a lot of the time. I also think he sometimes feels persecuted when confronted with rivalry banter, but we can hardly blame him for being overly sensitive in his situation. I appreciate a healthy percentage of his posts, and I enjoy hearing the UNC perspective from a non-Duke-hater (or at least someone who doesn't outwardly show his hate/dislike/whatever most of the time).
I understand that some don't like the way Kong started on this board and the tone of some of his posts, but I do appreciate most of what he/she brings to the board as well as the other UNC regulars. It has also been very nice to have some perspectives from other teams leading up to Duke games as well, even if some may look to stir the pot from time to time.

Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
Lastly, a word about the vilification of Roy and K that comes from both sides of 15-501. It may just be my personal opinion, but I am growing tired of the belief on each side that the other side's coach is a bad guy -- the notion that K conspires to steal already committed kids; the idea that Roy gleefully throws his players under the bus and disregards their feelings when it suits him. It just gets old and it makes both sides look silly. What's more, it is just plain false.
Kedsy's take

I completely agree with this. I am so sick and tired of constantly hearing the same rips against Roy. I don't necessarily like the guy and, yes, his country boy act is tiresome, and I think K is a much better person and coach, but I wish people wouldn't trot out the same old crap every time he opens his mouth. He's a hall of fame coach and for the most part he looks out for his players' best welfare. There are more interesting things to discuss.
UNC has a great program, a great hall-of-fame coach and unfortunately will likely be a very good team this year. Of course, I think Duke's is better in all three cases.

[superdave]

And Oscar Robertson belongs in the discussion. Maybe Kareem.

I think this is about the fifth time I've plugged the book, but Bill Simmons has very lengthy explanations for his top 12 and I tend to agree with him for the most part:
1-Jordan
2-Russell
3-Kareem
4-Magic
5-Bird
6-Wilt
7-Duncan
8-West
9-Oscar
10-Hakeem
11-Shaq
12-Moses (http://www.nbadraft.net/node/16527)

I agree on wanting to destroy Carthage, but I do find Kong's perspective and much of what he brings to the table to be insightful. I also wish there were 4-5 others like him out there, similar to Crimson&Blue as well.

[-jk]

Sorry ... the wilt comments were directed at Seattle Irish ... I quoted your article because I wanted to take the discussion to another thread (it really doesn't have a place in this one) ... but I had to had the jibe about Wilt (because the idea that he's better than Russell is SO ludicrous).

But I promise, this will be the last time I post in this thread on the Russell issue ... if anybody wants to talk about it, start a new thread.

Damn. I just finished popping the popcorn and was settling in for a thread for the ages. :)

-jk

[MCFinARL]

Damn. I just finished popping the popcorn and was settling in for a thread for the ages. :)

-jk

Well, just in case the new thread never gets started, and since I sort of started this discussion by querying Olympic Fan in the first place, I'll stick in my two cents' worth and say that while I don't have the encyclopedic knowledge to defend my position, my instincts tell me the Russell folks are right. (And I also want to note that I included Kobe and especially LeBron in my options only in case there were younger posters (aka whippersnappers) who might not know any better.) ;)

[mattman91]

Alright you are all making me be the bad guy by saying this but somebody has to do it. GO TO HELL CAROLINA GO TO HELL. :cool:

I'm sorry.

A true Duke fan can only take so much boasting on UNC.

That said, I do respect UNC. As a matter of fact I respect them more than just about any other University in the nation. A great school, with great athletic and academic success.

As Forest Gump would say, "Thats all I got to say about that".

[AZLA]

Crap, Kong has ONE more pitchforks than myself and most other Duke posters! Truly discouraging. :)

Kong, since you're here, can you use your Carolina connections to birddog confirmation that Jordan and Larry Brown are conspiring to draft talented Duke players and confine them to the bench until they wilt away?

Thanks in advance. PowerPoint visuals are always welcome. If you can link it to the SVG plot in Orlando with JJ, even better.

[1991 duke law]

We should treat kong with respect because he's a human being. However, there is no need to respect Carolina. We shouldn't respect Carolina. We should have nothing but disdain for Carolina. On the old DBR, there used to be a poster who used "Carolina delenda est" as his signature. That is the one and only proper sentiment. DESTROY! The all-caps is intentional.

It really shocks me how soft we are getting. I hate to bring this up, but Carolina still leads us in all-time wins. That is unacceptable. DESTROY! And salt the earth so that nothing may grow on that cursed land again.

This is a holy war, not some friendly country club rivalry.

Yes. I am a little bit crazy, but it's an insanity born of necessity.

The tough part is distilling the jokes from the serious. On IC this would be posted about Duke, and they would mean it but be way more nasty about it (throwing in some childish insults about Coach K and a number of others). A rivalry is inspiring but when it devolves into true hate (as I do see with some fans at some schools), it is simply weird, pathetic and scary. I love Duke and I love Duke basketball, but I simply will not allow it to rule my life. The success or failure of Duke will not define me (it may have 15 years ago until I shook my head hard and woke up).

[RelativeWays]

I respect the UNC basketball team and even Huckleberry far more than I respect the sheep fanbase. IC is the absolute worst. There are some very good, very reasonable UNC fans that post here and on TDD, I completely respect their opinions even if I don't agree with them. Unfortunately, being THE state school and more or less the de facto "pro" team for NC means that there are a ton of ignorant buffon sheep fans that propogate the most inane rumors and conspiracies about Duke. They are arguably the most hypocritical fanbase I've ever encountered bar none, though not quite the most delusional (that is UK). DUke has its far share of hooligan fans too, but they are not in the same league as UNC.

In regards to the coaches, who are now pretty much cult of personalities, I'll never say anything to disparage RW as a person or a human being. I don't know him in that context, and like most people (K included) he has his good points and bad points. There are some Duke and State fans that truly believe he is one of the most awful people on the planet, and that is just ridiculous hyperbole to me. Huckleberry may do or say things in a basketball context that I may not like, but he's a far far cry from a truly terrible person. When he starts committing genocide, serial murders, child porn, plotting terrorist attacks etc let me know and I'll change my mind. Until then, he's just Huckleberry Hound and its fun to laugh at his expense.

[BD80]

... Reasons to like UNC:

My wife ...

Would it be awkward for us to agree?


I've never been a hater where Carolina is concerned. Nothing has irritated me as much as the disrespect that has grown between the two fan bases...

... I arbitrarily use 1985, the year the NCAA expanded to 64 teams, as the start of the modern era...

... I hope you were joking about Mike O'Koren. He's hated because of his looks? ...

I think it is a sign of respect that we invite posters like kong on the board to engage in our sophomoric banter - of course our sophomoric banter is highly advanced - at least at a junior level :D

I raised O'Koren because it was so sophomoric - but considering it was in the "old days" I guess it doesn't count. O'Koren was a great example of how close the programs have always been, a NJ kid we wanted and a great credit to the carolina program. He was essentially the same player as Jim Spanarkel, who was revered as a Dukie. All we could com up with was O'Koren's horrific acne condition. Maybe the Crazies weren't always as clever as we remember being.


... I wish people wouldn't trot out the same old crap every time [ol'roy] opens his mouth. He's a hall of fame coach and for the most part he looks out for his players' best welfare. ...

If ONLY the the same ol crap would stop spewing every time ol' roy opens his mouth!

BTW, the "for the most part" caveat was brilliant! (and necessary)


... And salt the earth so that nothing may grow on that cursed land again.

This is a holy war, not some friendly country club rivalry.
Yes. I am a little bit crazy, but it's an insanity born of necessity.

Amen brother and pass the ammo.

Small nit to pick, but you must then cross plow and salt again.

Also, we CHOOSE to be crazy.


... Bill Simmons has very lengthy explanations for his top 12...

There is a short explanation: A Boston bias and a bias toward the more recent players. Just look at where he has Duncan and Bird, and how far down Boston rivals slip.

[shoutingncu]

I would add I believe shoutingunc is another contributor...

Yeah, I'm still around. A move and career shift this summer has left me not in front of my computer nine hours a day, so I post less.

That, and the off-season is less interesting to me (although I did post some in April and was even commended for it). Poor timing, I realize, but the main reason I posted somewhat more regularly post-2009 than post-2010 was the head-to-head recruiting battle looked more favorable than AR's this summer. Interestingly, that ties into a bit of the conversation going on here... I come to DBR for all the reasons you've said (and Kong seems to mostly agree with), IC is largely useless for information. The only time I've ever spent reading that board was when a few days would go by here without recruiting info last summer. I figure when they have something of actual value, it will make it's way to this board.

The problem I have... much like comparisons of K and Roy, is the comparisons you make of DBR to IC. They are not the same, and do not tolerate the same. Now, if you're going to argue that TDD is vastly superior to IC (with the biased exception of the team it roots for), then I would probably disagree with you. TDD seems almost as juvenile to me as IC does. So DBR is the Coach K of message boards. Regrettably, Carolina boards do not have their Dean Smith.

Another small thing I'll take issue with... 82-50. That seems to have become the calling card for why Duke is better than Carolina. I grant you that it was a wonderful beatdown for your side and an exclamation point on Duke being better than Carolina last year, but to claim it as the end to any argument (and it's often used that way) is the equivalent of us saying "Jordan."

All that said, count me in the group of haters that like to take jabs, backhanded or otherwise... Congratulations to the 2010 LAX Champions... three more and you'll catch Carolina.

[Starter]

I do have to be honest though, as I assume this is the thread for a civilized discussion on your persona. You certainly rub me the wrong way sometimes, in ways our former UNC posters did not. To me, it seems you have a tendency for taking subtle (and not so subtle) digs at Duke in many of your posts, and then trying to deflect responsibility for doing so when you are called out about it. You sometimes seem to adopt a holier-than-thou mentality when you feel defensive and are often off-base in telling us how we are hypocrites or we would act in certain situations. At other times, it seems that you develop a sort of childish mindset in believing that you're this innocent, benevolent martyr from IC being unfairly persecuted in unfair Duke-land.

For these reasons, plus the fact that your early days on this board were spent impersonating a Duke fan, I think fairly ridiculous the extent some go to dismiss any criticism of you. Not that it really matters, but you do have more "reputation points" than certain Duke posters here who have been around longer and whose body of work has been, in my opinion, more thoughtful and and reasonable than yours.



This. Plus that recent thing where you were all like, "I'm posting while driving, I KNOW people around here wouldn't want anything to happen to me..." You kind of reminded me of Eminem's Stan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSLZFdqwh7E). (SFW) "I drank a fifth of vodka, dare me to drive?"

Chill out, stop trying to bait us, stop trying to give us guilt trips, and I think all is cool. Obviously the majority of people here are kind souls who have no problem with you or anyone else reasonably repping your boys in baby blue. So remember where you are, but brush the chip off your shoulder. I think everyone here's up for intelligent give and take.

[kong123]

This. Plus that recent thing where you were all like, "I'm posting while driving, I KNOW people around here wouldn't want anything to happen to me..." You kind of reminded me of Eminem's Stan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSLZFdqwh7E). (SFW) "I drank a fifth of vodka, dare me to drive?"

Chill out, stop trying to bait us, stop trying to give us guilt trips, and I think all is cool. Obviously the majority of people here are kind souls who have no problem with you or anyone else reasonably repping your boys in baby blue. So remember where you are, but brush the chip off your shoulder. I think everyone here's up for intelligent give and take.


it was simply an excuse for a post that was somewhat incomplete. Also, with all the crap I was currently taking, I was making light of the situation. Reading too much into everything I say isn't my problem. :)

[Orange&BlackSheep]

Quote Originally Posted by Faison1:

... Reasons to like UNC:

My wife ...


Would it be awkward for us to agree?

[Starter]

it was simply an excuse for a post that was somewhat incomplete. Also, with all the crap I was currently taking, I was making light of the situation. Reading too much into everything I say isn't my problem. :)

Word, no love lost. Maybe put a winking emoticon on it next time or something.

[jv001]

Yeah, I'm still around.
Another small thing I'll take issue with... 82-50. That seems to have become the calling card for why Duke is better than Carolina. I grant you that it was a wonderful beatdown for your side and an exclamation point on Duke being better than Carolina last year, but to claim it as the end to any argument (and it's often used that way) is the equivalent of us saying "Jordan."

All that said, count me in the group of haters that like to take jabs, backhanded or otherwise... Congratulations to the 2010 LAX Champions... three more and you'll catch Carolina.


But like you say, backhanded jabs or otherwise. We have never been shut-out in a half of basketball. That's while playing your own style of play(four-corners)lol. And 82-50 back at you, lol. Like I said, glad to hear from you again and I mean that, seriously. Go Duke!

[jimsumner]

We have never been shut-out in a half of basketball.!

Don't be so sure.

I don't have a box score at hand but Duke did lose to Littleton High School 11-3 in 1908.

Of course, technically that was Trinity College, so maybe it doesn't count.

And it wasn't a conference game and I'm pretty sure it wasn't on national television.

And Duke did beat Guilford 20-1 the previousn year. So, they definitely didn't score in one half.

[Faison1]

Quote Originally Posted by Faison1:

... Reasons to like UNC:

My wife ...


Would it be awkward for us to agree?

No, I'm OK with that. You should have seen the bridesmaids in our wedding.

[jv001]

Don't be so sure.

I don't have a box score at hand but Duke did lose to Littleton High School 11-3 in 1908.

Of course, technically that was Trinity College, so maybe it doesn't count.

And it wasn't a conference game and I'm pretty sure it wasn't on national television.

And Duke did beat Guilford 20-1 the previousn year. So, they definitely didn't score in one half.

Jim, you never cease to amaze me. Bet there's not a member at ic with your knowledge. And if you can't find the box score, I'm certain it can't be found. But I'll amend my comment. unc has never shut Duke out in a half of basketball. But we did shut them out. Go Duke!

[BD80]

Jim, you never cease to amaze me. Bet there's not a member at ic with your knowledge. And if you can't find the box score, I'm certain it can't be found. But I'll amend my comment. unc has never shut Duke out in a half of basketball. But we did shut them out. Go Duke!

The COMBINED knowledge of ic < 1% of Jim Sumner's knowledge