Nolan Smith jersey retirement debate

[flyingdutchdevil]

Likely...although he will have to come back to Cameron for the ceremony whenever his NBA team comes to the East Coast for a game.

Has anyone looked at Nolan's place in the books?

I'd say that chance that Singler's jersey gets retired is highly probably rather than likely.

There have been a few good debates on DBR about Smith but no one has started a thread yet (probably too early). I think it Duke wins another NC and Smith is the second leader, then I'd think you'd have to. Have a mediocre season, a decent season, and two fantastic seasons with 2 NCs qualifies a jersey retirement ceremony in my books. But I'm not Coach K...

[superdave]

I'd say that chance that Singler's jersey gets retired is highly probably rather than likely.

There have been a few good debates on DBR about Smith but no one has started a thread yet (probably too early). I think it Duke wins another NC and Smith is the second leader, then I'd think you'd have to. Have a mediocre season, a decent season, and two fantastic seasons with 2 NCs qualifies a jersey retirement ceremony in my books. But I'm not Coach K...

I was actually referring to Nolan's career stats (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/statlines.php?playerid=2473).

Nolan's career points scored stands at 1147. He should clear 1700 and maybe even 1800 for his career which could put him in the top 15.

[uh_no]

I'd say that chance that Singler's jersey gets retired is highly probably rather than likely.

There have been a few good debates on DBR about Smith but no one has started a thread yet (probably too early). I think it Duke wins another NC and Smith is the second leader, then I'd think you'd have to. Have a mediocre season, a decent season, and two fantastic seasons with 2 NCs qualifies a jersey retirement ceremony in my books. But I'm not Coach K...

national championships are team accomplishments...not individual accomplishments....thats why those banners go at the end of the stadium all alone....

if nolan makes 1st team AA, lock it up...no AA? no retirement....that's my call....i personally think kyle will win POY, and will have it locked up

[_TheFakeJWill_]

interesting topic. What would Nolan need to get his jersey retired if its even probable?!

[chrisheery]

Nolan should be a candidate for jersey retirement based on his impact on Duke as a whole. He has helped changed the image of Duke in the last year or so. It has been a dramatic shift that has been best represented by his incredible personality and the incredible story of his strength after losing his father. Simply, he is a guy everyone loves and wants to be around. Pair that with being a stud on a national championship team and I think a good season this year would propel him to jersey retirement.

[m g]

can you retire smith if you don't retire scheyer?

[Duvall]

interesting topic. What would Nolan need to get his jersey retired if its even probable?!

NPOY.

[COYS]

can you retire smith if you don't retire scheyer?

In my opinion, no way unless Smith has a Pistol Pete year this season.

[chrisheery]

can you retire smith if you don't retire scheyer?

If he won another National Championship and was, say, the MOP of the Final Four, I think you could. Otherwise, he would have to win NPOY or NDPOY, I would think.

[uh_no]

Nolan should be a candidate for jersey retirement based on his impact on Duke as a whole. He has helped changed the image of Duke in the last year or so. It has been a dramatic shift that has been best represented by his incredible personality and the incredible story of his strength after losing his father. Simply, he is a guy everyone loves and wants to be around. Pair that with being a stud on a national championship team and I think a good season this year would propel him to jersey retirement.

ask jon scheyer how 'impact on duke as a whole' works out....

[chrisheery]

ask jon scheyer how 'impact on duke as a whole' works out....

I don't mean this to sound like an insult to Scheyer, I love the guy, but I am not sure I can conceive of an argument which would put Scheyer's impact on the program anywhere near Nolan's. Clearly all of our freshman and quite a few of next year's class love Nolan. I think his impact on our recent recruiting success is huge (my opinion, not certainty). That is why I think he might be considered even without winning NPOY or even MOP or even another national championship, but I am probably thinking with my heart more than my head.

[Duvall]

I don't mean this to sound like an insult to Scheyer, I love the guy, but I am not sure I can conceive of an argument which would put Scheyer's impact on the program anywhere near Nolan's.

Well, there's performance on the basketball court. Some people like to take that into account.

[chrisheery]

Well, there's performance on the basketball court. Some people like to take that into account.

Well, if you don't think Nolan Smith has performed well on the basketball court, you and I should probably just agree never to discuss basketball again.

[uh_no]

Well, if you don't think Nolan Smith has performed well on the basketball court, you and I should probably just agree never to discuss basketball again.

did you read what he said? nowhere did he insinuate that nolan hasn't performed well (and in his first two years in the program, he did NOT perform well.....not sure if you have a short term memory, but nolan lost his position as starter sophomore year......)...what he said was jon's performance over 4 years here at duke rivals the greats in duke's history....scoring 2000 points and averaging 10+ a game over 4 seasons? incredible.....while nolan's contributions last year and this year may top what jon did his jr and sr years, its folley to say that nolan is the catalyst for some cataclysmic change in duke's basketball program.....duke was part of a team that won a national championship, and may be on another....he is not the 'savior' of duke basketball....he is a very good player in a long line of very good players duke has produced....and if he can prove he is among the very best in the country by winning a national award, then I'd love to see his jersey retired

[Acymetric]

can you retire smith if you don't retire scheyer?


In my opinion, no way unless Smith has a Pistol Pete year this season.

I don't want to get ahead of myself, but even without another NC I think Nolan has a shot at having just as much if not more of an impact than Scheyer...and I thought Scheyer was a guy who deserved to be in the discussion but ultimately didn't quite make the cut.

If (if if if if if!) we manage to win again, Nolan certainly has a stronger argument for retirement than Scheyer, and it will depend on what kind of performance he has over the season and in the tournament.

That said, I don't intend to comment on jersey retirement for anyone on the team from here on out. That is putting the cart so far before the horse that I think at this point its only a couple feet behind it.

[chrisheery]

did you read what he said? nowhere did he insinuate that nolan hasn't performed well (and in his first two years in the program, he did NOT perform well.....not sure if you have a short term memory, but nolan lost his position as starter sophomore year......)...what he said was jon's performance over 4 years here at duke rivals the greats in duke's history....scoring 2000 points and averaging 10+ a game over 4 seasons? incredible.....while nolan's contributions last year and this year may top what jon did his jr and sr years, its folley to say that nolan is the catalyst for some cataclysmic change in duke's basketball program.....duke was part of a team that won a national championship, and may be on another....he is not the 'savior' of duke basketball....he is a very good player in a long line of very good players duke has produced....and if he can prove he is among the very best in the country by winning a national award, then I'd love to see his jersey retired

I can agree with most of that with regard to Jon's statistical achievements, but your contention that Nolan has not had a profound impact on Duke's resurgence is not something I can agree with, no matter how rudely you state that opinion.

I also do not think it is quite fair to say that Nolan played poorly his sophomore year. Yes, I agree he did not perform the task of playing PG as well as some would have hoped, but HE WAS NOT A POINT GUARD. He was asked to play a position that was foreign to him against ACC competition as a sophomore. He never had a chance to play his natural position until this past year. He probably wouldn't have done very well if he was asked to play center either. And, if we are questioning each other's memory, you might recall that he also suffered two injuries his sophomore year that really set him back. First he had a bone bruise in his knee that kept him from playing at full speed, then he suffered a concussion against Maryland. He came back from concussion to face a Clemson press that caused problems for everyone on the team, including a senior Greg Paulus and Junior Jon Scheyer.

By the way, I am not arguing against Jon having his number retired. I think it would be something to consider as well. The way he remade himself into a PG and completely brought back the confidence of the team in its primary ballhandler was incredible.

I think it should be remembered in all of this that Duke, despite its greatness, still only has 4 national championship teams. (I say that to make the following point, not to say that 4 championships isn't amazing) We have fewer national championships than NPOY award winners and way less than if you count NDPOY in that tally. So, shouldn't the best players on NC teams be rewarded as much or more than NPOY guys?

NPOY awards are not always awarded to the player who helps his team more than any other player. In my mind, they are controlled as much by hype as anything else. So, not winning one of those awards should not preclude a player from having his jersey retired.

[JasonEvans]

This is a difficult discussion. In truth, it comes up every time we have a senior starter who has been an All-ACC caliber player in the program.

Obviously, we have no idea what kind of season Nolan Smith will have. He could, as someone put it, "go Pistol Pete on us" and average 25+ ppg. But, barring something like that, I think we have to consider the full body of his work and likely judge him just a bit short of jersey retirement standards.

Consider this-- has he ever been the best at his position nationally? Has he ever been the best player on his current Duke team? Look at the other guys whose jerseys have been retired and you will see a pretty elite class of player. Nolan is yet to make his first All-ACC first team. Every other guy on the retirement list made it multiple times.

I agree that national titles are a very big deal, and being a team leader on one (or maybe two) national title teams adds a great deal to your Duke legacy. But I think the standards for retirement would likely have to be lowered considerably to include Nolan Smith, even if he leaves Duke with two shiny rings on his fingers.

One last point... I may be wrong, but the first really impassioned debate about jersey retirement on the DBR boards was back in 1999 when Trajan Langdon was ending his Duke career. I was among the loudest voices saying he deserved to have his jersey hanging from the rafters. He had been a transformative player, I argued, because he had led us back from the brink following the mid-90s downturn in the program.
http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/1999_draft/Players/images/langdon.jpg

But there was one argument that shut me up and changed my mind. Someone, I forget who, said, "if we are having a debate then we should not retire his jersey. jersey retirement goes to the no-brainers." I thought about that and found I agreed.

Look at the guys whose jerseys are hanging right now -- there is not a "debate" among them. If we took a poll, every single one of these guys would get near 100% approval if fans were asked about retiring their jerseys. I think the odds are excellent that Kyle Singler will reach that level too should he have the success and season we all expect this year.

If there is a debate, it means the player comes up short. I find that to be a simple formula that works every time.

--Jason "love me some Nolan and agree that he has impacted the program very positively in ways off the court, but it just ain't enough... at least not yet" Evans

[Lord Ash]

Well said!

Nolan was AMAZING last year, and will likely be amazing this year. Plus, he is a SUPERB ambassador for our program.

However, after a 6ppg freshman year and an 8ppg sophomore year, he is still a long way from joining the likes of Bobby Hurley (all time NCAA leading assist guy) JJ Redick (2nd all-time ACC scorer and top Duke scorer in history) or Art Heyman (a 25pt/10reb sophomore year... redickulous!)

My guess is Nolan ends up like Jon Scheyer or Trajan Langdon... a beloved all-timer who doesn't quite make the cut to get his jersey hanging, but whose number will ALWAYS hang in the rafters of our hearts.

Of course... if Nolan blows up for 25 a game and LEADS Duke to another title, who knows?

[Duvall]

Look at the guys whose jerseys are hanging right now -- there is not a "debate" among them. If we took a poll, every single one of these guys would get near 100% approval if fans were asked about retiring their jerseys.

I actually don't think this is true, though it's absolutely not worth getting into that discussion.

[Lord Ash]

I actually don't think this is true, though it's absolutely not worth getting into that discussion.

Better watch yourself, or Candace Parker will come and beat you up. And you won't enjoy it.

:rolleyes:

[flyingdutchdevil]

Well said!

Nolan was AMAZING last year, and will likely be amazing this year. Plus, he is a SUPERB ambassador for our program.

However, after a 6ppg freshman year and an 8ppg sophomore year, he is still a long way from joining the likes of Bobby Hurley (all time NCAA leading assist guy) JJ Redick (2nd all-time ACC scorer and top Duke scorer in history) or Art Heyman (a 25pt/10reb sophomore year... redickulous!)

My guess is Nolan ends up like Jon Scheyer or Trajan Langdon... a beloved all-timer who doesn't quite make the cut to get his jersey hanging, but whose number will ALWAYS hang in the rafters of our hearts.

Of course... if Nolan blows up for 25 a game and LEADS Duke to another title, who knows?

I don't understand this. Duke doesn't embrace improvement? It doesn't recognize players who have taken giant strides? It only recognizes players who are spectacular in high school? If that's the case, then that is ridiculous. So what if Nolan wasn't a perfect player his freshman and sophomore years; he improved so much to the extent that we has an absolute integral part of our NC team last year. It can be argued (although lets not) that he was the most important player last year.

IMO, if we win the NC and Nolan is a top-2 most important player on the team and his jersey isn't even considered to be retired, then the whole process of retiring jerseys is meaningless.

[Lord Ash]

I don't understand this. Duke doesn't embrace improvement? It doesn't recognize players who have taken giant strides? It only recognizes players who are spectacular in high school? If that's the case, then that is ridiculous. So what if Nolan wasn't a perfect player his freshman and sophomore years; he improved so much to the extent that we has an absolute integral part of our NC team last year. It can be argued (although lets not) that he was the most important player last year.

IMO, if we win the NC and Nolan is a top-2 most important player on the team and his jersey isn't even considered to be retired, then the whole process of retiring jerseys is meaningless.

A few things:

First, obviously improvement is considered. Look at a freshman Shane Battier or Grant Hill versus a senior Shane or Grant. However, when you look at Nolan, HALF of his college career (freshman and sophomore year) was, at best, average. When you compare that to the guys in the rafters, the retired jersey guys generally were much better even earlier in their careers. For example, against Nolan's sophomore year stats of 8 points, 2 assists, and 2 rebounds...

*Laettner was putting up 16 points and 10 rebounds a game as a sophomore.
*Johnny Dawkins was putting up 19 points, 4 assists, and 4 rebounds a game as a sophomore after putting up 18 points a game as a FRESHMAN.
*Grant Hill was scoring 14 points, pulling down 6 rebounds and handing out 4 assists as a sophomore, while helping Duke win its second NCAA title in a row.
*Shelden Williams was scoring 13 points per game while pulling down 9 rebounds and AVERAGING three blocks a game as a sophomore.

Remember, jersey retirement is about a body of work. As of now, Nolan's body of work does not compare favorably against any of the guys whose numbers have been retired.

Second, if we win the title again I don't think there is ANYONE here who wouldn't CONSIDER Nolan's jersey being retired, so don't worry about the whole process of jersey retiring being made meaningless. However, even if it is CONSIDERED it still might not HAPPEN, though.

[94duke]

Isn't this the Kyle stats thread?

Maybe the annual jersey retirement discussion can be a different thread.

Thanks,
94duke

[flyingdutchdevil]

Isn't this the Kyle stats thread?

Maybe the annual jersey retirement discussion can be a different thread.

Thanks,
94duke

Kyle is awesome. His stats are great. He will go down as a top 10 (or 5, or 3) Duke player of all time. His jersey will be retired. Nolan, his stats, and his potential jersey retirement are more intriguing questions, though.

[flyingdutchdevil]

A few things:

First, obviously improvement is considered. Look at a freshman Shane Battier or Grant Hill versus a senior Shane or Grant. However, when you look at Nolan, HALF of his college career (freshman and sophomore year) was, at best, average. When you compare that to the guys in the rafters, the retired jersey guys generally were much better even earlier in their careers. For example, against Nolan's sophomore year stats of 8 points, 2 assists, and 2 rebounds...

*Laettner was putting up 16 points and 10 rebounds a game as a sophomore.
*Johnny Dawkins was putting up 19 points, 4 assists, and 4 rebounds a game as a sophomore after putting up 18 points a game as a FRESHMAN.
*Grant Hill was scoring 14 points, pulling down 6 rebounds and handing out 4 assists as a sophomore, while helping Duke win its second NCAA title in a row.
*Shelden Williams was scoring 13 points per game while pulling down 9 rebounds and AVERAGING three blocks a game as a sophomore.

Remember, jersey retirement is about a body of work. As of now, Nolan's body of work does not compare favorably against any of the guys whose numbers have been retired.

Second, if we win the title again I don't think there is ANYONE here who wouldn't CONSIDER Nolan's jersey being retired, so don't worry about the whole process of jersey retiring being made meaningless. However, even if it is CONSIDERED it still might not HAPPEN, though.

I agree with you that Nolan's stats aren't that impressive during his sophomore year. 8,2,2 isn't great, but it isn't bad. And I fully understand the 'body of work' argument. A rock concert will be great only if the band is engaging throughout, plays their top songs, and ends with an insane song (terrible analogy, I know. But you get it). However, I still feel that Nolan's improvement, and his stellar junior year, trumps his not-so-great sophomore year. Unlike Kyle, Nolan's senior year will be of crazy importance in the jersey-in-the-rafters decision.

So, as per my signature, Let's Go Nolan!

[jimsumner]

He probably needs to make first-team All-ACC first.

Seriously, Nolan likely would have to be national POY to be in the discussion.

Steve Vacendak and Chris Carrawell were ACC POYs and didn't have their numbers retired. Both had exceptional intangibles and were exceptional leaders of great teams.

Bob Verga and Trajan Langdon were first-team All-ACC three times and don't have their jerseys retired. Verga was a two-time All-America.

Jim Spanarkel was Duke's first 2,000 point scorer and doesn't have his jersey retired.

Mark Alarie scored 2,136 points at Duke, Gene Banks 2,079. Both played in Final Fours, both were key components of dramatic program turn-arounds. Neither was so honored.

We know about Scheyer, who scored 2,077 points and was the season-long-best player on an NCAA title team.

Please don't try to twist this into some kind of Sumner-disses-Smith thing. I place tremendous value on his contributions to the team and school, on and off the court. Everything you're heard about Smith is true. He lights up the room, he's a tremendous ambassador for Duke and he figures to be in the All-America mix this season and a key for what could be a memorable season.

But combine the finite number of numbers that can be retired with the extraordinary success of the Duke program, then you necessarily have very difficult standards for this kind of recognition.

Perhaps we can re-visit this topic in March. But right now, I don't see how this happening.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Perhaps we can re-visit this topic in March. But right now, I don't see how this happening.

Hi Jim, thanks for the insight. While I understand that getting your jersey retired has a lot to do with individual statistics, if Duke were to win another NC in April, do you not think that Nolan's contribution from November 2009 to April 2011 would be enough for a jersey retirement ceremony (assuming that his role this year is slightly more than last year)? What if he's a 2nd team All-American rather than 1st? Does that change the decision at all?

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

He probably needs to make first-team All-ACC first.

Seriously, Nolan likely would have to be national POY to be in the discussion.

Steve Vacendak and Chris Carrawell were ACC POYs and didn't have their numbers retired. Both had exceptional intangibles and were exceptional leaders of great teams.

Bob Verga and Trajan Langdon were first-team All-ACC three times and don't have their jerseys retired. Verga was a two-time All-America.

Jim Spanarkel was Duke's first 2,000 point scorer and doesn't have his jersey retired.

Mark Alarie scored 2,136 points at Duke, Gene Banks 2,079. Both played in Final Fours, both were key components of dramatic program turn-arounds. Neither was so honored.

We know about Scheyer, who scored 2,077 points and was the season-long-best player on an NCAA title team.

Please don't try to twist this into some kind of Sumner-disses-Smith thing. I place tremendous value on his contributions to the team and school, on and off the court. Everything you're heard about Smith is true. He lights up the room, he's a tremendous ambassador for Duke and he figures to be in the All-America mix this season and a key for what could be a memorable season.

But combine the finite number of numbers that can be retired with the extraordinary success of the Duke program, then you necessarily have very difficult standards for this kind of recognition.

Perhaps we can re-visit this topic in March. But right now, I don't see how this happening.

You make many good points, Jim. I think that when we fans really like what we see in a player, it's easy to extrapolate jersey retirements and various honors from that thinking. The lack of a jersey retirement hardly diminishes the legacy of any really good Duke player!

Another school nearby has dealt with this challenging issue by hanging many jerseys from the rafters, but not retiring them.

[dyemeduke]

I for one think Gene Banks should be retired. He was one of those first real HUGE recruits before Coach K hit the scene. I understand that he doesn't meet the criteria, but if there was ever a player that deserved to be retired in spite of not being AA, Banks is it.

As for the rest: no, no, no, no. You don't want to dilute retiring jerseys just because we really like a particular player's personality of game. There are too many players that fit that bill. Nolan has a chance if he makes 1st-AA and has an amazing season. Singler has a better chance if he does so, because of his MOP last year.

One last note, I don't care...but Shelden doesn't deserve it in my opinion. He was great statistically on defense, and even his offense numbers are decent. Look at his overall contribution while on the court though, and yes, defense solid. Offense...if he was better than they'd won the championship. He was great, don't get me wrong, but I just never saw anything that made him an all-time great...not better than Banks.

[uh_no]

Hi Jim, thanks for the insight. While I understand that getting your jersey retired has a lot to do with individual statistics, if Duke were to win another NC in April, do you not think that Nolan's contribution from November 2009 to April 2011 would be enough for a jersey retirement ceremony (assuming that his role this year is slightly more than last year)?

You pointed it out yourself....jersey retirement has solely to do with individual accomplishments.....not whether the TEAM did something great.....national titles are a team accomplishment...national accolades are an individual accomplishment.....if nolan gets 2nd team, maybe you can make a case.....but his jersey retirement doesn't hinge on whether we win a title this year....but how he performs as an individual.....you jump to put so much weight on the national title....but if nolan is 2nd team AA and the team loses in the finals, is his case for jersey retirement less? what if haywards shot goes in last year, does that mean that nolan's chances would go down? or course not! that's why we need to seperate the winning of championships from the superiority of the players

[PADukeMom]

can you retire smith if you don't retire scheyer?

If you retire Scheyer to be able to retire Smith...then I'm going to bring up Trajan Langdon. I have nothing but a warm heart for Jon but if he goes so should Trajan.

I personally wouldn't have a problem retiring both Kyle & Nolan if either/both win NPOY or one withs ACCPOY. A second championshio would seal it for me.

[Lord Ash]

Be careful when discussing Shel.

Not only did he win the National Defensive Player of the Year award... TWICE... he is the Duke ALL TIME LEADER in rebounds and blocks. He was a First Team All American, and is one of only three players EVER to score 1500 points, grab 1000 rebounds, block 350 shots, joining Tim Duncan and Ralph Sampson.

Sure, Shel's teams did not perform as they may have hoped in March, but overall...

[flyingdutchdevil]

You pointed it out yourself....jersey retirement has solely to do with individual accomplishments.....not whether the TEAM did something great.....national titles are a team accomplishment...national accolades are an individual accomplishment.....if nolan gets 2nd team, maybe you can make a case.....but his jersey retirement doesn't hinge on whether we win a title this year....but how he performs as an individual.....you jump to put so much weight on the national title....but if nolan is 2nd team AA and the team loses in the finals, is his case for jersey retirement less? what if haywards shot goes in last year, does that mean that nolan's chances would go down? or course not! that's why we need to seperate the winning of championships from the superiority of the players

It's definitely a mixture and highly correlated. A players stats are usually beefed up by winning a NC (more games, more points, more stats). Also, there is more national and university recognition when one does so. Nolan would not be in this discussion if Hayward made the shot. I think we'd be having this discussion about Singler if Hayward made the shot!

A NC hinges on the performances of a individual players and how those players interact with one another. The latter is Nolan's forte - his stats may not be top notch, but his ability to gel with players, always have a positive attitude, and be a mentor to others should be taken into consideration.

Maybe it's my man-crush on Nolan, I don't know. But I really feel that, at the end of the day, Nolan with his multiple NCs should be acknowledged.

[monkey]

Be careful when discussing Shel.

Not only did he win the National Defensive Player of the Year award... TWICE... he is the Duke ALL TIME LEADER in rebounds and blocks. He was a First Team All American, and is one of only three players EVER to score 1500 points, grab 1000 rebounds, block 350 shots, joining Tim Duncan and Ralph Sampson.

Sure, Shel's teams did not perform as they may have hoped in March, but overall...

Lord Ash - totally agree with this. IMO, Shelden is one of the all-time great Duke defenders. His offensive numbers are also good (or, in the case of rebounds, an exception in the K era, really great). I think his jersey retirement has to be a testatment though to his defensive prowess, which, of course, is the most important emphasis of Coach K's teams. The overall body of work is quite impressive.

Back to Nolan - I love Nolan. I also loved Carawell and Langdon, who've been mentioned earlier in the thread, but as with others, barring an exceptional further improvement from him (similar to his improvement between sophomore and junior years), I think that like Langdon, like Carawell and like Scheyer, I probably slot him in under the bar for retirement as others do. Now, supposing we win a 2nd championship with him having such a "re-breakout" year, do my feelings change - absolutely - but that's a discussion to have if it goes down that way.

[uh_no]

Maybe it's my man-crush on Nolan, I don't know. But I really feel that, at the end of the day, Nolan with his multiple NCs should be acknowledged.

they would be....with two big banners at the north end of cameron indoor stadium

[flyingdutchdevil]

they would be....with two big banners at the north end of cameron indoor stadium

Nolan with....not Nolan and ;)

[ice-9]

I think it would be oversimplifying things by saying jersey retirement is based solely on individual accomplishment...because individual and team accomplishments usually go hand in hand, especially when it comes to our program which tends to be pretty good every season.

If JJ and Shelden won a NC, would there be as much questioning their jersey retirements? (And note, they didn't have the best supporting cast.)

Similarly, as a poster above pointed out, had we not won the NC last year, wouldn't we talking about whether Singler is deserving? Would Nolan even be in the discussion?

Winning a NC is a rare and special event, and everyone on the team gets lifted up as a result of it.

As for Nolan, one of my favorite players since I graduated in '02...I love this guy not only for his personality and character, but also for the massive improvement in his game from freshman year to today. It's really quite amazing. Few thought he could even make the NBA back then, and now he's talked about as a possible lottery pick. He was an out-of-control, pedestrian-basketball-IQ, holds-on-to-the-ball-too-long guard as a frosh...look at him now, a leader, the most consistent player last season, a calming effect.

Mad respect for ndotsmitty.

While I hope he will get his jersey retired, I do think the odds are pretty slim. We'd have to do well this year as a team (i.e. Final Four) and Nolan would have to be one of the team's statistical leaders. I think he'd have to win a few NPOY awards too -- he may not have to win all of them, just a few.

But I don't think he will stand out enough on this team to get it.

First, there is Singler who is on track to get his jersey retired if he continues to play the way he can and bring this team deep into the postseason. Singler is already one of the leading candidates for NPOY, and if he gets it, I think he will certainly get his jersey retired. His body of work the past three years, including last season's NC win, will probably be enough to sway the various national voters.

Second, I have a suspicion that Kyrie's star will shine very, very bright. This kid is transformative (heck we're changing our offense around him), and will get a lot of the credit for this year's successes. Kyrie could also have a season worthy of an NPOY.

With two potential NPOY candidates, is there really room for a third? And there are also a slew of candidates on this year's team with the potential to have breakout seasons: Mason, Curry, Dawkins, Kelly...

Basically, there's going to be a lot of competition for "attention," and I just don't think Nolan will stand out enough to win any of the major popularity contests...even if we do win our fifth national championship.

[monkey]

First, there is Singler who is on track to get his jersey retired if he continues to play the way he can and bring this team deep into the postseason. Singler is already one of the leading candidates for NPOY, and if he gets it, I think he will certainly get his jersey retired. His body of work the past three years, including last season's NC win, will probably be enough to sway the various national voters.

Second, I have a suspicion that Kyrie's star will shine very, very bright. This kid is transformative (heck we're changing our offense around him), and will get a lot of the credit for this year's successes. Kyrie could also have a season worthy of an NPOY.

With two potential NPOY candidates, is there really room for a third? And there are also a slew of candidates on this year's team with the potential to have breakout seasons: Mason, Curry, Dawkins, Kelly...



Good post. Not sure that Kyrie will be in the mix for NPOY as a frosh. Happy to be proved wrong, but that's a pretty rare occurrence, even these days. Note that three stars can shine bright enough to get individual attention though - Example: Laettner, Hurley and Hill.

[DukieInBrasil]

But there was one argument that shut me up and changed my mind. Someone, I forget who, said, "if we are having a debate then we should not retire his jersey. jersey retirement goes to the no-brainers." I thought about that and found I agreed.

Look at the guys whose jerseys are hanging right now -- there is not a "debate" among them. If we took a poll, every single one of these guys would get near 100% approval if fans were asked about retiring their jerseys. I think the odds are excellent that Kyle Singler will reach that level too should he have the success and season we all expect this year.

If there is a debate, it means the player comes up short. I find that to be a simple formula that works every time.

--Jason "love me some Nolan and agree that he has impacted the program very positively in ways off the court, but it just ain't enough... at least not yet" Evans
I think from purely subjective standards this is a pretty valid way of putting it. Just for references sake, so that we can put Kyle and Nolan in perspective, who are the currently retired Blue Devils?

[jimsumner]

I think from purely subjective standards this is a pretty valid way of putting it. Just for references sake, so that we can put Kyle and Nolan in perspective, who are the currently retired Blue Devils?

Dick Groat
Art Heyman
Jeff Mullins
Mike Gminski
Johnny Dawkins
Danny Ferry
Christian Laettner
Bobby Hurley
Grant Hill
Shane Battier
Jason Williams
Shelden Williams
J.J. Redick

There are 36 possible numbers, 37 if you count 0 and 00 as two numbers. You want to keep 15 numbers available.

You can do the math.

And forever is a long time.

[DukieInBrasil]

Be careful when discussing Shel.

Not only did he win the National Defensive Player of the Year award... TWICE... he is the Duke ALL TIME LEADER in rebounds and blocks. He was a First Team All American, and is one of only three players EVER to score 1500 points, grab 1000 rebounds, block 350 shots, joining Tim Duncan and Ralph Sampson.

Sure, Shel's teams did not perform as they may have hoped in March, but overall...
That Shelden and JJ played their final two years without anyone in the class below them, so they had much less experience to support the overall TEAM accomplishments. As mentioned by flyingutch..., getting to championships means more games etc. But also, it means more chances at picking up hardware like MOP of the F4 and/or championships themselves. So playing 2 years without a fully formed supporting cast definitely hurt both JJ and Shelden's chances of making even more definitive statements about their legacies.
The argument could be made that had they been better players they would have overcome the limitations of their teams, but I find that to be a weak argument b/c it IS a team game and you need properly functioning units within the team to be successful, with or without high-caliber star players. K's fingers/fist analogy works well here.
As for Nolan's jersey getting retired, I don't think winning another title would be enough in and of itself, independent of statistical milestones he might achieve. I think that he would have to make 1st Team All-ACC, 1st Team A-A and one of ACC-POY or NPOY to get the jersey retired. If either of the POY awards were to happen I think the All-ACC and/or A-A would kind of be ancillary benefits at that point. Although, if he were to win say (only) an All-ACC along with ACC-DPOY as well as MOP of the F4, I think it would be pretty hard to deny him a jersey retirement ceremony. The combination of A-A plus F4 MOP would also be pretty hard to deny. I think the discussion become moot if he is NPOY.
I guess what I'm saying is there's no litmus test, but it does seem to be more tilted to personal awards rather than team accomplishments.

[gam7]

I think Duke should retire his ice ... And only his ice.

[gus]

But I really feel that, at the end of the day, Nolan with his multiple NCs should be acknowledged.

I realize you're speaking in hypotheticals, but that should be "would have to be" not "should be". This is all academic though. I'd be willing to bet we don't win the title this year. (actually no I wouldn't. Barring some tarheelian season that keeps us out of the tournament I will pick Duke as the Champion. I still feel guilty for picking arkansas in 1994. But chances are, Duke will not repeat.)

[Poincaré]

I don't think Nolan needs a jersey retirement to validate his impact on Duke. He's a got a ring and we will love him forever. He doesn't seem like the kind of person to get hung up on jersey retirements.

If he win's one of the handful of NPOY awards out there, we can start having this discussion. During the K era, I believe that this has become a requirement, right?

By the way, what's up with the Shelden Williams discussion? Shelden was one of the best players in ACC history. How many players have won NDPOY twice? He broke some crazy records. Has Bill Simmons' ramblings made people go soft in the head? Perhaps my outrage is unnecessary. I see that everyone agrees that Shelden is an all-time great. It may well have been all started by a gratuitous Candace Parker joke that Duke fans really shouldn't be making at the expense of one of our own. Shelden doesn't deserve that kind of ribbing. Not from us.

[nocilla]

IMHO, I don't think Nolan gets his jersey retired. It's certainly not impossible, but I think he would have to have an improvement from last year that marvels his improvement from soph to jr year. And if that happens, he should be NPOY which tremendously helps his resume.

[noyac]

By the way, what's up with the Shelden Williams discussion? Shelden was one of the best players in ACC history. How many players have won NDPOY twice? He broke some crazy records. Has Bill Simmons' ramblings made people go soft in the head? Perhaps my outrage is unnecessary. I see that everyone agrees that Shelden is an all-time great. It may well have been all started by a gratuitous Candace Parker joke that Duke fans really shouldn't be making at the expense of one of our own. Shelden doesn't deserve that kind of ribbing. Not from us.

I agree completely Sheldon does not deserve this his number is up and that is that whether you agree or not.

But c'mon he nearly averaged a Double Double for his career (9.1 rb and 13.9 pts) I just checked and no one from the 90's on is even close to averaging a double double, he deserves to be up there imo.

[Kedsy]

I agree completely Sheldon does not deserve this his number is up and that is that whether you agree or not.

This would be a lot easier to understand if you used punctuation. I had to read it three times before I figured out what you were trying to say.

[_TheFakeJWill_]

There is nothing Nolan can do to get his jersey retired. Just my 2 cents.

[uh_no]

There is nothing Nolan can do to get his jersey retired. Just my 2 cents.

npoy? that wouldn't get him a retirement?

[Indoor66]

There is nothing Nolan can do to get his jersey retired. Just my 2 cents.

I agree with you. Two years of top performance, even with a NPOY (which I doubt he can get) would, IMO, not be enough.

[weezie]

This thread reads poorly. Not cool to pick our players apart like specimens.

Nolan deserves better than this type of examination.

[jimsumner]

This thread reads poorly. Not cool to pick our players apart like specimens.

Nolan deserves better than this type of examination.

With all due respect, I don't think anyone is picking apart Nolan. Can you give an example?

I think the premise of the thread is flawed, or at least premature. But I don't think anyone has criticized any aspect of Nolan's game or character.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Jim Spanarkel was Duke's first 2,000 point scorer and doesn't have his jersey retired.

But he should! Retire #34! :cool:

As for Nolan, as much as I love him, most likely he'll have to be content with being in the Hall of Honor and Duke's Hall of Fame, like Spanarkel and Alarie and Banks and...

[CameronBornAndBred]

But he should! Retire #34! :cool:

As for Nolan, as much as I love him, most likely he'll have to be content with being in the Hall of Honor and Duke's Hall of Fame, like Spanarkel and Alarie and Banks and...
Agreed...and the Halls are not a bad place to be hanging out. My two cents says Tinkerbell should be in the rafters.

[JasonEvans]

There is nothing Nolan can do to get his jersey retired. Just my 2 cents.

That's just silly.

Lets say the Plumlee Bros are found to have taken money while playing AAU ball and are declared ineligible. Meanwhile, Kyrie decides he doesn't really love basketball and his true desire is to be a dentist so he drops off the team. Kyle gets so broken up at his homecoming game in Oregon that he starts to cry while on the court. He slips on his tears plowing into Seth blowing out both their ACLS.

Meanwhile Nolan starts to carry the team. He averages 31 points per game, and a stunning 11 rebounds per game with a slew of assists and steals. Despite being written off after the decimation of the main players, Duke still manages to finish 14-2 in the ACC including a 35 point win at Carolina where Nolan sets a Dean Dome record with 54 points!

He leads us to the national title. Along the way, three top 5 recruits in the 2012 and 2013 classes commit to Duke and specifically cite their desire to follow in Nolan's footsteps.

--Jason "my scenario is almost as silly as anyone saying that Nolan has zero chance at this" Evans

[CameronBornAndBred]

Kyle gets so broken up at his homecoming game in Oregon that he starts to cry while on the court. He slips on his tears plowing into Seth blowing out both their ACLS.

If this happens we are holding you accountable.

[JohnGalt]

I think the premise of the thread is flawed, or at least premature. But I don't think anyone has criticized any aspect of Nolan's game or character.

No Joke. Maybe we should start the KI retirement debate next?

He's look pretty good so far...right?

[Poincaré]

Nolan is on a lot of people's preseason Naismith candidate lists. I think each voter submits something like 50 names.

So we can say that he might have somewhere around 2-percent chance of winning a NPOY. That sounds small, but that's actually huge if you think about how many players are in Division I men's basketball.

We do not yet know how much he has improved. I don't think that he will be NPOY of the year, but I hope that it is one of his goals, right behind "Repeat". People are talking as if it will take injuries for Nolan to make a case, but if he has improved enough, Nolan could make a case even on a loaded team. Shane and Jason were both on loaded teams, but they managed to win NPOY.

I like to say this a lot (mostly in conversations about our young NBA alumni) and I will say it again: These kids are young. Don't put a ceiling on who they are and what they can do. You can say that some achievements are unlikely and try to give honest assessments of probability. That is part of intellectual discourse, but let's not tell Nolan (or any other player, present and future) before the season starts that he will never be good enough to do X unless X = "Beat Chuck Norris in thumb-wrestling".

[DukieInBrasil]

That's just silly.

Lets say the Plumlee Bros are found to have taken money while playing AAU ball and are declared ineligible. Meanwhile, Kyrie decides he doesn't really love basketball and his true desire is to be a dentist so he drops off the team. Kyle gets so broken up at his homecoming game in Oregon that he starts to cry while on the court. He slips on his tears plowing into Seth blowing out both their ACLS.

Meanwhile Nolan starts to carry the team. He averages 31 points per game, and a stunning 11 rebounds per game with a slew of assists and steals. Despite being written off after the decimation of the main players, Duke still manages to finish 14-2 in the ACC including a 35 point win at Carolina where Nolan sets a Dean Dome record with 54 points!

He leads us to the national title. Along the way, three top 5 recruits in the 2012 and 2013 classes commit to Duke and specifically cite their desire to follow in Nolan's footsteps.

--Jason "my scenario is almost as silly as anyone saying that Nolan has zero chance at this" Evans

Absolutely right. If Nolan were to win the NPOY he instantly has an excellent chance of getting his jersey retired. There are a whole slew of other personal award possibilities that would make his chances for retirement good to very good. Saying he has no chance despite any awards is just plain wrong.

[sodak brocomotive]

This thread seems pretty irrelevent. Can we look at Nolan's stats, achievements, and career after the season is over? A lot can happen over the next several months. Furthermore, Nolan most likely won't have jersey retirement stats, especially with the time he'll be sharing with all the talented guards this year.

[BD80]

... Consider this-- has he ever been the best at his position nationally? Has he ever been the best player on his current Duke team? Look at the other guys whose jerseys have been retired and you will see a pretty elite class of player. Nolan is yet to make his first All-ACC first team. ....

... Look at the guys whose jerseys are hanging right now -- there is not a "debate" among them. ...


I actually don't think this is true, though it's absolutely not worth getting into that discussion.


Better watch yourself, or Candace Parker will come and beat you up. And you won't enjoy it.

:rolleyes:


Be careful when discussing Shel.

Not only did he win the National Defensive Player of the Year award... TWICE... he is the Duke ALL TIME LEADER in rebounds and blocks. He was a First Team All American, and is one of only three players EVER to score 1500 points, grab 1000 rebounds, block 350 shots, joining Tim Duncan and Ralph Sampson.

Sure, Shel's teams did not perform as they may have hoped in March, but overall...

Let's just say that Shelden is the baseline for consideration, which indicates just how high the standard is - or should be.

As beloved as Nolan is, there have been Duke stars equally loved and even more productive who did not have their jerseys retired (Spanarkel, Banks, Trajan).

Another NC will go a LONG way to jersey retirement for Nolan. I think that either he or Kyle would have to be NPOY, and Nolan would have to be AA 1st team. I don't think a player that hasn't been a 1st team AA should have his jersey retired.

I can see Nolan having a break-out year, particularly resulting from pressure defense and from Kyrie breaking down defenses (allowing Nolan to penetrate or shoot). I look forward to the team break-downs in the tournament, as the analysts explain how they would defend Nolan and Kyle and Kyrie.

[uh_no]

Let's just say that Shelden is the baseline for consideration, which indicates just how high the standard is - or should be.

As beloved as Nolan is, there have been Duke stars equally loved and even more productive who did not have their jerseys retired (Spanarkel, Banks, Trajan).

Another NC will go a LONG way to jersey retirement for Nolan. I think that either he or Kyle would have to be NPOY, and Nolan would have to be AA 1st team. I don't think a player that hasn't been a 1st team AA should have his jersey retired.

I can see Nolan having a break-out year, particularly resulting from pressure defense and from Kyrie breaking down defenses (allowing Nolan to penetrate or shoot). I look forward to the team break-downs in the tournament, as the analysts explain how they would defend Nolan and Kyle and Kyrie.

So its pretty set if you win NPOY you get retired, but what if kyle were to win and nolan were to finish second? what if kyle were to win and nolan were 1st team aa? what if it were the other way around?

[jimsumner]

So its pretty set if you win NPOY you get retired, but what if kyle were to win and nolan were to finish second? what if kyle were to win and nolan were 1st team aa? what if it were the other way around?

Actually, Elton Brand was NPOY and isn't recognized. So, add getting a degree.

[The Gordog]

This is a difficult discussion. In truth, it comes up every time we have a senior starter who has been an All-ACC caliber player in the program.

Obviously, we have no idea what kind of season Nolan Smith will have. He could, as someone put it, "go Pistol Pete on us" and average 25+ ppg. But, barring something like that, I think we have to consider the full body of his work and likely judge him just a bit short of jersey retirement standards.

Consider this-- has he ever been the best at his position nationally? Has he ever been the best player on his current Duke team? Look at the other guys whose jerseys have been retired and you will see a pretty elite class of player. Nolan is yet to make his first All-ACC first team. Every other guy on the retirement list made it multiple times.

I agree that national titles are a very big deal, and being a team leader on one (or maybe two) national title teams adds a great deal to your Duke legacy. But I think the standards for retirement would likely have to be lowered considerably to include Nolan Smith, even if he leaves Duke with two shiny rings on his fingers.

One last point... I may be wrong, but the first really impassioned debate about jersey retirement on the DBR boards was back in 1999 when Trajan Langdon was ending his Duke career. I was among the loudest voices saying he deserved to have his jersey hanging from the rafters. He had been a transformative player, I argued, because he had led us back from the brink following the mid-90s downturn in the program.
http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/1999_draft/Players/images/langdon.jpg

But there was one argument that shut me up and changed my mind. Someone, I forget who, said, "if we are having a debate then we should not retire his jersey. jersey retirement goes to the no-brainers." I thought about that and found I agreed.

Look at the guys whose jerseys are hanging right now -- there is not a "debate" among them. If we took a poll, every single one of these guys would get near 100% approval if fans were asked about retiring their jerseys. I think the odds are excellent that Kyle Singler will reach that level too should he have the success and season we all expect this year.

If there is a debate, it means the player comes up short. I find that to be a simple formula that works every time.

--Jason "love me some Nolan and agree that he has impacted the program very positively in ways off the court, but it just ain't enough... at least not yet" Evans

My recall of the debate about Trajan and what you wrote at the time is exactly the same.

Barring a JJ-esque Sr. year I don't see any way we retire Nolan, and that seems unlikely in this year's loaded back-court. Even at a 20% faster pace he I don't see him getting enough shots to eclipse 20ppg. Seth, Dre and Kyrie are just too good to not get their shots.

[BD80]

So its pretty set if you win NPOY you get retired, but what if kyle were to win and nolan were to finish second? what if kyle were to win and nolan were 1st team aa? what if it were the other way around?

That was my point; if they both have monster seasons, we shouldn't disqualify the one that doesn't win NPOY as long as he is also an AA. If one has a subpar season, it will be easier for the other to run up good stats, but harder for the team succeed.


Actually, Elton Brand was NPOY and isn't recognized. So, add getting a degree.

Absolute criteria. Hopefully, we will be discussing Kyrie in this light two years from now.

[uh_no]

Actually, Elton Brand was NPOY and isn't recognized. So, add getting a degree.

Yes of course....I kind of assumed neither nolan nor kyle would drop out of school a month before graduation.

[throatybeard]

He probably needs to make first-team All-ACC first.

Seriously, Nolan likely would have to be national POY to be in the discussion.

Steve Vacendak and Chris Carrawell were ACC POYs and didn't have their numbers retired. Both had exceptional intangibles and were exceptional leaders of great teams.

Bob Verga and Trajan Langdon were first-team All-ACC three times and don't have their jerseys retired. Verga was a two-time All-America.

Jim Spanarkel was Duke's first 2,000 point scorer and doesn't have his jersey retired.

Mark Alarie scored 2,136 points at Duke, Gene Banks 2,079. Both played in Final Fours, both were key components of dramatic program turn-arounds. Neither was so honored.

We know about Scheyer, who scored 2,077 points and was the season-long-best player on an NCAA title team.

Please don't try to twist this into some kind of Sumner-disses-Smith thing. I place tremendous value on his contributions to the team and school, on and off the court. Everything you're heard about Smith is true. He lights up the room, he's a tremendous ambassador for Duke and he figures to be in the All-America mix this season and a key for what could be a memorable season.

But combine the finite number of numbers that can be retired with the extraordinary success of the Duke program, then you necessarily have very difficult standards for this kind of recognition.

Perhaps we can re-visit this topic in March. But right now, I don't see how this happening.

It's always nice to have Jim come in with a healthy dose of perspective. Thank goodness.

[Exiled_Devil]

Hi Jim, thanks for the insight. While I understand that getting your jersey retired has a lot to do with individual statistics, if Duke were to win another NC in April, do you not think that Nolan's contribution from November 2009 to April 2011 would be enough for a jersey retirement ceremony (assuming that his role this year is slightly more than last year)? What if he's a 2nd team All-American rather than 1st? Does that change the decision at all?

Some Data to counter your enthusiasm for Nolan's jersey retired if he is on 2 NC teams:

Number of Jerseys retired since Coach K started at Duke: 11

Number of players that were retired well after their time at Duke: 2(Mullens and Heyman*)

Of the 9 Coach K players with retired jerseys, 6 were also NPOY. (24,35,32,33,31,22,4)

Of the 9 Coach K players with retired jerseys, 3 were NDefenisvePOY (33,31,23)

Of the 9 Coach K players, 1 was both NPOY and NDPOY (31)(Seriously, 2016)

Of the 9 Coach K players, 2 have NCAA records (11,4)

Of the 9 Coach K players, 2 have ACC records (11,4)

Of the 9 Coach K players, 5 were National Champions

Of the 9 Coach K players, 3 were on multiple National Championship winning teams.

Of the 9 Coach K players, the Duke all-team leader in points (24,4) rebounds (23), blocks (23), assists (11) Free throws made (32) free throw percentage (4).

<All stats were based on the time of graduation, e.g. Johny Dawkins was all-time scoring leader, then JJ.>

Important stat:

Of the 9 Coach K players, 0 don't have either a POY/NDPOY or an NCAA all-time record.

The only retired jersey of a Coach K player that wasn't a NPOY/NDPOY is the NCAA all-time leader in assists who was the starting PG on two Championship teams.

This lineup suggest to me that for Nolan to get #2 retired, he needs to either break an NCAA record or earn NPOY or NDPOY honors.


EDIT: A more appropriate comparison might be to those who were on 1991 and 1992 who aren't retired, but I don't have the time to add that.











* Heyman was NPOY and averaged 25 ppg for his 3 seasons. But regardless of that, he deserves retirement for being instrumental in the brawl that was the lighter fuel for the burning hatred we have for our light blue neighbors.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Of the 9 Coach K players with retired jerseys, 6 were also NPOY. (24,35,32,33,31,22,4)

Of the 9 Coach K players with retired jerseys, 3 were NDefenisvePOY (33,31,23)

Of the 9 Coach K players, 1 was both NPOY and NDPOY (31) (Seriously, 2016)

Huh? I see 33 and 31 in there. Or are you saying Battier did both in the same year and Hill was both but different years? Also..what is 2016?
Beyond those two points...thanks for posting the numbers, it's nice to see them presented easily like that.

[striker219]

Also..what is 2016?

Try picturing a red, white, and blue bumper sticker with the text "Battier '16" or maybe "Battier/Hill '16".

[Exiled_Devil]

Huh? I see 33 and 31 in there. Or are you saying Battier did both in the same year and Hill was both but different years? Also..what is 2016?
Beyond those two points...thanks for posting the numbers, it's nice to see them presented easily like that.

My bad - Grant was never NPOY. 33 is the seventh and extraneous number on that list.

Look at my avatar for the answer to the other question.

NPOY info came from goduke (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=3756213).

Other info came from a lot of digging around.

[CEF1959]

Let's see how the season goes and make judgments then.

[PADukeMom]

We can flap our fingers forever as to whose jersey should or shouldn't get retired. Simple solution....play so fantastically & EARN your spot in the rafters.

Don't hurt me for saying this but I think Nolan is going to have a better season than Kyle.

BTW Jason...thank you so much for brining up Trajan AGAIN!!! LOL I had just gotten over it yet again!;)

[MarkD83]

Just so you all know Nolan's accopmlishments are already in the rafters just like everyobody else on last year's team. My guess is if you ask JJ and Shelden and Johnny Dawkins and Danny Ferry....they would trade the jersey number for a National Championship banner.

[Jderf]

Just so you all know Nolan's accopmlishments are already in the rafters just like everyobody else on last year's team. My guess is if you ask JJ and Shelden and Johnny Dawkins and Danny Ferry....they would trade the jersey number for a National Championship banner.

Right. Some posters are talking as if Nolan's contributions to a national title don't get recognized. They do get recognized. As MarkD83 says, Nolan's team contributions get recognized in the form of the team banner hanging in the rafters. But jersey retirements are for individual achievements. And while Nolan's team contributions have been fantastic and his individual contributions have likewise been superb, they just don't seem to be great enough to place him alongside the other names hanging up there.

As others noted, he could possibly (but not plausibly) turn it around with a legendary senior year. But given the elements in play this season, that seems highly unlikely. Don't get me wrong, Nolan may just be my favorite Duke player of all time. But his jersey retirement seems pretty far out of reach.