UNC - a preseason look

[kong123]

Well guys, we are only a few weeks away from starting a new season and I must admit I am a bit afraid of a repeat of last years performance. From a few early accounts of practice, the point guard situation is still a huge problem. LD still makes too many mistakes. KM is as slow as advertised and apparently isn't picking up the offense as quickly as some expected. Ultimately, this team can go only as far as the pg will take them. HB appears to be living up to some of the hype. Roy loves his efficiency and loves his focus and desire, but will it be enough for the team? I doubt this group will adopt his mindset enough to make a difference. Make no mistake, we will be able to score the ball better than we did last year, but is that enough? Roy is currently running the guys in practice to try and toughen them up. Sounds like several of the guys complained about the workouts to begin with, but finished them in one piece. Zeller and Henson and slowed by nagging injuries so Roy isn't working them in practice as hard as he could. Turns out Justin Knox is better than advertised. His size and skill level is something UNC desperately needed and we are lucky to get him. Bullock is shooting it well in practice and the coaches feel that he will be a good defender. Roy thinks Dexter could be the best defender, but it doesn't appear that the technique nor the effort is there. Maybe that will change, maybe not. I believe this team will be better than last years team. I believe we will make many of the same mistakes, but because of our ability to score quickly and more easily, I think we will win 25+ games. I think #2 in the ACC is possible and I think UNC can give Duke a game in the Smith Center. I think we are more equipped to guard you this year than we were last. Whether or not we show the ability or the heart needed to play defense is yet to be seen. This is my best guess based on last years impressions as well as what I have read in the press.

(Time to start a new UNC thread. Old one here (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?21553).)

[Class of '94]

Well guys, we are only a few weeks away from starting a new season and I must admit I am a bit afraid of a repeat of last years performance. From a few early accounts of practice, the point guard situation is still a huge problem. LD still makes too many mistakes. KM is as slow as advertised and apparently isn't picking up the offense as quickly as some expected. Ultimately, this team can go only as far as the pg will take them. HB appears to be living up to some of the hype. Roy loves his efficiency and loves his focus and desire, but will it be enough for the team? I doubt this group will adopt his mindset enough to make a difference. Make no mistake, we will be able to score the ball better than we did last year, but is that enough? Roy is currently running the guys in practice to try and toughen them up. Sounds like several of the guys complained about the workouts to begin with, but finished them in one piece. Zeller and Henson and slowed by nagging injuries so Roy isn't working them in practice as hard as he could. Turns out Justin Knox is better than advertised. His size and skill level is something UNC desperately needed and we are lucky to get him. Bullock is shooting it well in practice and the coaches feel that he will be a good defender. Roy thinks Dexter could be the best defender, but it doesn't appear that the technique nor the effort is there. Maybe that will change, maybe not. I believe this team will be better than last years team. I believe we will make many of the same mistakes, but because of our ability to score quickly and more easily, I think we will win 25+ games. I think #2 in the ACC is possible and I think UNC can give Duke a game in the Smith Center. I think we are more equipped to guard you this year than we were last. Whether or not we show the ability or the heart needed to play defense is yet to be seen. This is my best guess based on last years impressions as well as what I have read in the press.

(Time to start a new UNC thread. Old one here (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?21553).)

NIce post Kong.....Thanks for the insight into this year's Carolina team.

Do you know or have an idea of what the starting lineup will be to begin the season?

[kong123]

NIce post Kong.....Thanks for the insight into this year's Carolina team.

Do you know or have an idea of what the starting lineup will be to begin the season?

I think it will be Drew, Strickland, HB, Henson, and Zeller. Strickland's spot seems to be most at risk. I have read a few quotes in the press where Roy challenges Dexter to be as good as he can be or else. Knox could challenge for the 4 spot. I think he will play starters minutes because he is a big body who can bang with anyone.

[MChambers]

NIce post Kong.....Thanks for the insight into this year's Carolina team.

Do you know or have an idea of what the starting lineup will be to begin the season?
It takes a lot of guts to come here and post, and especially to post critical things about your team.

Your post does raise some questions. First, will Strickland play point (Roy said last spring Strickland is a point guard, but three point guards is a lot)? He might be better than the alternatives.

On Knox, I have to say I'm skeptical. Henson and Zeller have been held back by injuries, and Knox, after three middling seasons in the SEC, looks good? Let's wait and see how Knox does against real competition.

Finally, it's interesting to hear about what Roy thinks about Strickland's defense. One of the nice things about this site is we don't hear rumors about what Coach K thinks of his players. He says what he says to the press and that's it: no rumors. Now mind you, I don't know what rumors about Duke basketball get repeated on other sites, because I don't visit them. But Roy seems to take delight in talking about his players in less than favorable ways, like his comments last year about Strickland not knowing the plays, or this fall about Henson and the running. I really don't understand why Roy does this.

[kong123]

Roy does not plan on playing Dexter at point this year unless there is an injury.

Roy is raving about Knox. I also believe in taking a wait and see approach, but everyone seems to be impressed with him.

Roy is a different type of person. I believe honest to a fault would be a good description. I don't think Roy is saying anything in the press that he hasn't already said to his players in person. Those comments from Roy were made in the press and I don't believe they are unfair. He is trying to motivate his player and lots of coaches use the press to try to do that. Is it right? I personally do not care either way. I understand you feel K doesn't do this and so you feel like anyone who does is on a lower level, but I do not think most basketball fans feel the same way.

[MChambers]

Roy does not plan on playing Dexter at point this year unless there is an injury.

Roy is raving about Knox. I also believe in taking a wait and see approach, but everyone seems to be impressed with him.

Roy is a different type of person. I believe honest to a fault would be a good description. I don't think Roy is saying anything in the press that he hasn't already said to his players in person. Those comments from Roy were made in the press and I don't believe they are unfair. He is trying to motivate his player and lots of coaches use the press to try to do that. Is it right? I personally do not care either way. I understand you feel K doesn't do this and so you feel like anyone who does is on a lower level, but I do not think most basketball fans feel the same way.

Thanks for the responses. As to saying things in the press, it doesn't have anything to do with Coach K. I was just using him as an example. Being a parent and having been a recreational soccer coach and a manager in the federal government, I don't think that calling people out publicly is a good motivational too. That's all. If Roy wants to rip on a player at a closed practice, that's okay. But talking about it to the press or to others, that's a mistake.

[kong123]

Thanks for the responses. As to saying things in the press, it doesn't have anything to do with Coach K. I was just using him as an example. Being a parent and having been a recreational soccer coach and a manager in the federal government, I don't think that calling people out publicly is a good motivational too. That's all. If Roy wants to rip on a player at a closed practice, that's okay. But talking about it to the press or to others, that's a mistake.

I think Roy could use a filter between his brain and his mouth. I think he should be more aware of his words, but I believe he either enjoys the attention his comments give him or he isn't self-aware enough to understand the consequences. I think this is a failure in his ability to lead and an area where he could easily improve. However, I do not think Roy learns from his mistakes in a way that would help him not make those mistakes again. I think he continues to bang a square peg into a round hole until it either fits or another season passes. He continues to try to recruit round pegs for round holes, and if he is successful great things can happen. Wonder how many square pegs turned into round pegs this summer?

[Gthoma2a]

What is the opinion on Bullock? He has a huge mouth and I'd like to know how he backs it up.

[kong123]

What is the opinion on Bullock? He has a huge mouth and I'd like to know how he backs it up.

i guess we will have to wait a few weeks for that. i have seen him play in person and he is a great shooter. wish he had more of a killer instinct and would drive the ball to the basket, but he still has time to learn.

[Gthoma2a]

i guess we will have to wait a few weeks for that. i have seen him play in person and he is a great shooter. wish he had more of a killer instinct and would drive the ball to the basket, but he still has time to learn.

Cool cool, I appreciate your insight. I will obviously not like him due to my feelings on his comments (I know he is young and trying to show spirit, but it annoyed me). I just look forward to him playing against Andre, Seth, and Nolan. I think if he really thinks that he has that kind of skill that they can't hang with him, it will be an entertaining year for him.

[Newton_14]

So good post Kong with great info that I for one had no previous insight to. My thoughts at this point are, for one there is no way the train wreck of last year repeats itself. Just do not see that happening. Now if you are going to tell me that Zeller breaks another bone and loses most of the year, and Henson gets hurt or is foul prone then maybe, but I would not bet on it.

If it were me, I would play Henson and Zeller at the 5, each backing the other up and it not mattering which one starts and which one comes off the bench. I put Harry at the 4, Bullock at the 3, McDonald (I think he ends up being better than Strickland) at the 2, and the winner in practice between Drew and Marshall at pg. With this collection of players, going small with one big on the floor is their best chance of success in my view. If Knox is as good as the reports, then you may can get away with rotating the 3 bigs and keeping 2 of them on the floor for lots of minutes. I will have to be shown, however, that Knox is worthy of that praise.

They have talent, there is no doubt, and I do think Harry is as good as advertised, but without a quality pg, it makes it tougher for him to dominate. I do think Marshall take the pg spot by the start of ACC play. He is slow, but he is a good ball-handler, and passer. I don't see him being turnover prone unless the freshman jitters kick in.

I think they win 20 games, finish in the top 5 of the ACC, and make the NCAA tournament as a 7 to 9 seed. They could rise above that a little bit, but I honestly do not think they can finish 2nd in the ACC unless the unbalanced schedule swing's heavily in their favor.

[kong123]

So good post Kong with great info that I for one had no previous insight to. My thoughts at this point are, for one there is no way the train wreck of last year repeats itself. Just do not see that happening. Now if you are going to tell me that Zeller breaks another bone and loses most of the year, and Henson gets hurt or is foul prone then maybe, but I would not bet on it.

If it were me, I would play Henson and Zeller at the 5, each backing the other up and it not mattering which one starts and which one comes off the bench. I put Harry at the 4, Bullock at the 3, McDonald (I think he ends up being better than Strickland) at the 2, and the winner in practice between Drew and Marshall at pg. With this collection of players, going small with one big on the floor is their best chance of success in my view. If Knox is as good as the reports, then you may can get away with rotating the 3 bigs and keeping 2 of them on the floor for lots of minutes. I will have to be shown, however, that Knox is worthy of that praise.

They have talent, there is no doubt, and I do think Harry is as good as advertised, but without a quality pg, it makes it tougher for him to dominate. I do think Marshall take the pg spot by the start of ACC play. He is slow, but he is a good ball-handler, and passer. I don't see him being turnover prone unless the freshman jitters kick in.

I think they win 20 games, finish in the top 5 of the ACC, and make the NCAA tournament as a 7 to 9 seed. They could rise above that a little bit, but I honestly do not think they can finish 2nd in the ACC unless the unbalanced schedule swing's heavily in their favor.


Roy went into detail about his plans for Will Graves in a recent interview and mentioned how he planned on play Will at the 4. He thought that it would really stretch the defense and allow for dribble penetration. I think you are wrong on McDonald. I do not think he will ever be a starter at UNC. I think he backs up Bullock or Strickland this year. I believe Roy will sit players this year who do not play defense. Last year, he played everyone all of the time.

I think UNC will be a good rebounding team this year. I think we will be a bit more athletic than last year but obviously not as big and deep. If UNC can consistently shoot the ball well from 3 this year, and remain healthy, I believe they will stay in the top 10 all year. Lucky to have a weak ACC.

[Newton_14]

Roy went into detail about his plans for Will Graves in a recent interview and mentioned how he planned on play Will at the 4. He thought that it would really stretch the defense and allow for dribble penetration. I think you are wrong on McDonald. I do not think he will ever be a starter at UNC. I think he backs up Bullock or Strickland this year. I believe Roy will sit players this year who do not play defense. Last year, he played everyone all of the time.

I think UNC will be a good rebounding team this year. I think we will be a bit more athletic than last year but obviously not as big and deep. If UNC can consistently shoot the ball well from 3 this year, and remain healthy, I believe they will stay in the top 10 all year. Lucky to have a weak ACC.

I am basing my thoughts on McDonald on how he played down the stretch last year before hurting his ankle and missing the final Duke game. He was very impressive against Wake in the game you guys won on the road. I think McDonald is a better defender, a better shooter, and he is a bit bigger. Strickland is far more explosive on offense, but makes terrible decisions with the ball and his shooting is erratic. He will likely improve of course but don't sleep on McDonald.

Agree on the weaker ACC. Duke, Va Tech, NCSU, FSU, and UNC with the latter 3 battling it out for 3rd through 5th....

[Duvall]

I am basing my thoughts on McDonald on how he played down the stretch last year before hurting his ankle and missing the final Duke game. He was very impressive against Wake in the game you guys won on the road. I think McDonald is a better defender, a better shooter, and he is a bit bigger. Strickland is far more explosive on offense, but makes terrible decisions with the ball and his shooting is erratic.

I dunno, I think Strickland's shooting was pretty consistent last year.

I guess Strickland and McDonald will improve this year, but they have so far to go. I have to think that Bullock is the better bet for big minutes.

[moonpie23]

thanks for the post, kong.....

in a parallel kind of universe way, are the unc faithful still believing that Duke was handed the crown last year, un-athletic, un-talented and will suffer mightily against the heels this year?

i'm just curious.....

[-jk]

thanks for the post, kong.....

in a parallel kind of universe way, are the unc faithful still believing that Duke was handed the crown last year, un-athletic, un-talented and will suffer mightily against the heels this year?

i'm just curious.....

C'mon, moonpie. Kong can't answer that without opening himself up to a lot of bashing simply for bearing the message.

The faithful are easy enough to find on IC. And to make it easy on you, you don't even have to visit IC to know what you'd see.

-jk

[moonpie23]

ok...you're right.....just delete it....

bad form on my part...

[juise]

I think Roy could use a filter between his brain and his mouth. I think he should be more aware of his words, but I believe he either enjoys the attention his comments give him or he isn't self-aware enough to understand the consequences.

Speaking of which, I find it amusing that Roy's earthquake comment last seoason has become one of the iconic inappropriate sports metaphors, as demonstrated by this article (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5726924) about some comments made by Tennessee's football coach.


orth Carolina basketball coach Roy Williams was also criticized in February for telling a clumsy anecdote that was interpreted as comparing the Tar Heels' struggles to the Haiti earthquake disaster.

[COYS]

I think #2 in the ACC is possible and I think UNC can give Duke a game in the Smith Center. I think we are more equipped to guard you this year than we were last. Whether or not we show the ability or the heart needed to play defense is yet to be seen. This is my best guess based on last years impressions as well as what I have read in the press.

(Time to start a new UNC thread. Old one here (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?21553).)

Interesting perspective, Kong. Taking Wheat's place, I guess, since Wheat seems to be MIA. I completely agree with you that #2 in the ACC is completely possible. VaTech will be a veteran team with one star, but they're still not going to intimidate anyone. FSU simply cannot put the ball in the basket enough to march all the way to second place. And while Durand Scott is one of my picks for break out player of the year, I just don't see Miami matching the talent in your neck of the woods. The Wolfpack can go in either direction, I think. It will be interesting to see how much CJ Leslie can translate his natural ability into disciplined performance on the court. They have the raw materials to field a team that could challenge for number 2, but a lot of frosh have to step up quickly and the coaching staff has to prove itself. Last year was such an outlier for UNC that given Roy's history and the general lack of elite teams in the ACC, there's no reason why UNC can't be back where it belongs . . . number 2 behind Duke :p.

[dukeballboy88]

I dont know how Roy will keep Bullock from starting after what I saw at the pro am. The few times I seen him play he was aggresive and took theball to the basket. It made me think he would be the 3rd scorer behind Zeller and Barnes all 3 avg double figures. And yes I think Zeller if healthy will lead UNC in scoring because Barnes being the focal point of the opposing defenses will open up the lane for Zeller to work. He has the potential to be all acc if he can play a full season!

[Bob Green]

I think UNC will be a good rebounding team this year.

That's an interesting but perhaps optimistic opinion about a team which lost its three best rebounders in Ed Davis (9.6 rpg), Deon Thompson (6.7 rpg) and Marcus Ginyard (4.9 rpg). Zeller (4.6) and Henson (4.4) are the top returning rebounders. I'm sure Barnes will grab his share and perhaps Bullock who has good size but who knows what Knox is going to provide.

I believe UNC will be a better shooting team this year, in fact, I'll say they're going to be a much better shooting team, however, I'll adopt a wait and see attitude in regard to rebounding and general inside play. Obviously, the jury is still out on defense and point guard play.

I would like to echo all the folks thanking Kong123 for posting his thoughts here deep in enemy territory. Your perspective is appreciated.

[CLT Devil]

Kong, thanks for posting.

I am curious as to what is making people think Knox will contribute significantly this year? It seems that he played on a weak team and had unimpressive stats for 3 years. I always thought of him as more of a stop gap just to use up a scholly and provide a body to spell Henson and Zeller. I'd be surprised to see him up his Reb and PPG averages against much stiffer competition, in games and also in practice to earn PT. Having never seen him play I am going on a lot of assumptions, but apparently someone out there is saying he could play starters minutes.

I was impressed by McDonalds play late in the year as well. I think he could be the breakout/sleeper player that was on the roster last year. It's also interesting to hear that Drew II might lose his starting job to KM. I always thought DII had all the tools to run the show but just needed to work on his handles and decision making, especially on the fast break.

No doubt that the Heels will score more this year, but I still don't see them being a great rebounding team. Zeller and Hensen should be able to pull plenty down, and I'm sure HB will get his share, but other than that I don't see too many smaller guys who had the drive or skills and size to pull down boards the way a Nolan, Kyle, Lance or Scheyer were able to last year. Half of rebounding is wanting the ball more than the other guy and getting yourself in position to battle for the ball...this might be a re-occuring theme for the 2010 Heels; they will only go as far as their desire to want it more than the other team will take them. They have the personnell (barring injury to the front court) to have a good year, they are going to have to battle more this year than they liked to last year. Maybe HB will bring a winning culture back to UNC, or maybe there are still a few bad apples and head cases (Hensen?) who will not buy in to Roy's vision.

All in all it should be another fun year for what is a supposedly down ACC. When Duke and UNC play each other anything can happen...save for last year when the game in Cameron was over after just a couple of minutes.

Lastly; Roy has already fired up his 2010 - 11 quote machine. He already named two players who did not want to do his conditioning drills. I understand why they are doing the drills, and the dual purpose it serves, but I guess I will just never understand why he has to name individual players and how well, or badly, they are taking his new conditioning routine. If anything I think this team needs unity...I dunno, I digress.

Thanks for posting your thoughts on the upcoming season, Kong.

[CameronBlue]

Look at UNC and you see a team almost perfectly suited to half-court offense. The question is: Will Roy let them play to that strength? If he limits the decisions that LD has to make, runs more set plays and gives Zeller time to establish his position UNC could be extremely hard to beat by tournament time. More half-court sets will minimize UNC's problems with depth and increase the number of touches the front court players receive. Posters to this board appreciate Zeller's potential but for many there will be those "Holy geez" moments when even the older sages amongst us will be impressed. Zeller is big, really really big...and he's fundamentally sound. Bilas, despite apparent anti-Duke eccentricities, put UNC in his FF for a reason. (It was his exclusion of Duke that was mystifying.) If Zeller's health holds this could be the year, THE year for a Duke-UNC FF showdown. But a lot has to fall into place for UNC. The entire offense last year was a bloody orgy of ineptitude (Rated NC-17: physical abuse, perverse treatment of round objects, public execution by coachspeak) and Henson's head in particular seemed to, um, disappear much of the time. As a 4 Roy could simplify his role in the offense, get him a little closer to the basket where he can elevate over his defender for easy baskets. Barnes as anything other than a 3 makes no sense to me. Allow him to get out on the break on those occasions when UNC runs, create nightmarish secondary break opportunities and pick his moments to post-up down low as matchups dictate.

Fortunately for Duke the matchups will work to the Blue Devils' advantage. I think Duke will feast upon UNC's ball handling ability or lack thereof, particularly as late-game fatigue sets in and of course Duke has a HUGE advantage when it comes to the intangibles: experience, confidence and desire (smile LD, I'm looking at cha). I still don't know what happened to Roy last year. One thing seems certain, he has no real affinity for game-day adjustments or playing strengths to weaknesses at least in comparison to Dean and K. Dean knew how to neutralize an opposing team's speed and quickness. On those occasions when Dean's teams plodded along at a 73-78ppg scoring pace, UNC was rarely suckered into a faster tempo than they could handle. The hated Four Corners was constructed in part to play strengths to weaknesses. Roy's teams don't seem similarly exploitative or versatile. It's a tough point to argue, after all Roy has 2 NCs to K's one since he arrived on the Hump but at some level Roy seems to be playing checkers in a milieu historically dominated by two chess Grand Masters. Somewhere in this discussion must be included the point that there's a thrust and parry element to the Duke-UNC rivalry that Roy hasn't yet grasped.

[JasonEvans]

Here is a thought on Knox--

So far, Zeller and Henson have been slowed in practice by injuries. Is it possible that Knox is looking good because he is sorta playing against no one right now? It is easy to look like a dominant rebounder when you have a few inches and 20 pounds on everyone you are rebounding against. The test, of course, will be to see what Knox looks like when he goes up against quality opponents.

Still, we should not totally dismiss him. This is a kid who averaged 20 min/game in SEC play last year, so he has played against real competition. He scored better than 6 ppg playing in a system that did not fit him well (which is why he transferred). If he can give UNC similar numbers-- 20 min/game, 6 ppg, and 4 rpg -- Roy will be quite happy.

-Jason "he's a bit like Andre Dawkins last year-- a desperation back-up plan that no one expected to arrive when it did" Evans

[juise]

Still, we should not totally dismiss him. This is a kid who averaged 20 min/game in SEC play last year, so he has played against real competition. He scored better than 6 ppg playing in a system that did not fit him well (which is why he transferred). If he can give UNC similar numbers-- 20 min/game, 6 ppg, and 4 rpg -- Roy will be quite happy.


I believe UNC will be a better shooting team this year, in fact, I'll say they're going to be a much better shooting team...

Absolutely, Bob. Jason forgot to mention that Justin Knox is a career 100% shooter from beyond the arc (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=36221). Just deadly.

[kong123]

Knox's numbers in his three years down in Alabama must not be ignored. They are probably a better indicator than anything. But, by most accounts, he is far more skilled offensively than the coaches expected. The coaching staff has been around for a long time, so they are capable of seeing something in a player if its there. Knox is in a new situation and is surrounded by much better players. He will likely be the 5th option when on the offensive side of the floor, so perhaps he will have the space to show his stuff. Either way, his size and presence on the court is an improvement over what is left on the roster.

Also read an account from a guy whose daughter dated one of the Wear twins. He said that the reason the kids went home was due to girlfriend reasons. They both had gf's in Cali and wanted to be close to them. Hadn't heard that before, but this seems to be widely accepted on the IC.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Also read an account from a guy whose daughter dated one of the Wear twins. He said that the reason the kids went home was due to girlfriend reasons. They both had gf's in Cali and wanted to be close to them. Hadn't heard that before, but this seems to be widely accepted on the IC.

Are they dating twins as well?

[wilko]

They both had gf's in Cali and wanted to be close to them. Hadn't heard that before, but this seems to be widely accepted on the IC.

I dont doubt it for a second. Its a far easier sell to say say this; as opposed to admitting something ELSE might be wrong. God forbid anything substantive shatter the illusion of pastel perfection.

[JStuart]

but at some level Roy seems to be playing checkers in a milieu historically dominated by two chess Grand Masters. Somewhere in this discussion must be included the point that there's a thrust and parry element to the Duke-UNC rivalry that Roy hasn't yet grasped.

I nominate this quotation as the Post of the Century, thus far. CB puts into words what I've felt -but unable to express properly. Well Done, Sir!

[kong123]

However, I do not think Roy learns from his mistakes in a way that would help him not make those mistakes again. I think he continues to bang a square peg into a round hole until it either fits or another season passes. He continues to try to recruit round pegs for round holes, and if he is successful great things can happen. Wonder how many square pegs turned into round pegs this summer?

how about this one? I was pretty proud of this one and it flew right under the radar.

:cool:

[Indoor66]

how about this one? I was pretty proud of this one and it flew right under the radar.

:cool:

I got it but did not want to credit you with such a profound insight. Keep Thirsty. :cool:

[BattierBattalion]

Look at UNC and you see a team almost perfectly suited to half-court offense. The question is: Will Roy let them play to that strength? If he limits the decisions that LD has to make, runs more set plays and gives Zeller time to establish his position UNC could be extremely hard to beat by tournament time. More half-court sets will minimize UNC's problems with depth and increase the number of touches the front court players receive. Posters to this board appreciate Zeller's potential but for many there will be those "Holy geez" moments when even the older sages amongst us will be impressed. Zeller is big, really really big...and he's fundamentally sound. Bilas, despite apparent anti-Duke eccentricities, put UNC in his FF for a reason. (It was his exclusion of Duke that was mystifying.) If Zeller's health holds this could be the year, THE year for a Duke-UNC FF showdown. But a lot has to fall into place for UNC. The entire offense last year was a bloody orgy of ineptitude (Rated NC-17: physical abuse, perverse treatment of round objects, public execution by coachspeak) and Henson's head in particular seemed to, um, disappear much of the time. As a 4 Roy could simplify his role in the offense, get him a little closer to the basket where he can elevate over his defender for easy baskets. Barnes as anything other than a 3 makes no sense to me. Allow him to get out on the break on those occasions when UNC runs, create nightmarish secondary break opportunities and pick his moments to post-up down low as matchups dictate.


You're absolutely right. UNC has the PERFECT half-court team. Slow, but steady point guard (KM) with spot up shooter (RB), go to guy (HB), and two inside studs (JH and TZ). Their starting 5 might even be a better offensive half-court team than Duke was last year.

What about the defense? I'm still very skeptical of UNC's defense, especially on the perimeter. On paper, it looks even worse than last year's.

Again, can we all acknowledge Roy's terrible strategy when faced with adversity? He thinks that his team isn't working hard enough and runs them around in practice. This is better than changing your strategy or trying to retool fundamentals?

[Faison1]

Thanks for the OP, Kong. I admire how you've posted and defended yourself over the past several months. As I told my nextdoor UNC neighbor 2 years ago as he was gloating, "everything goes in cycles".

To that point, I think UNC might be a bit overrated in the national polls at #9. I hope they don't prove me wrong. Maybe it's last year, or maybe something else, but they look kind of pedestrian this year.

As to the discussion of Roy calling his players soft, I bet most of the UNC faithful would agree, and probably support Roy in his efforts to toughen them up. In fact, last year, one of my UNC friends complained that the reason the team was doing so poorly was because Roy was recruiting soft frontcourt players who would normally play at Duke.

[kong123]

You're absolutely right. UNC has the PERFECT half-court team. Slow, but steady point guard (KM) with spot up shooter (RB), go to guy (HB), and two inside studs (JH and TZ). Their starting 5 might even be a better offensive half-court team than Duke was last year.

What about the defense? I'm still very skeptical of UNC's defense, especially on the perimeter. On paper, it looks even worse than last year's.

Again, can we all acknowledge Roy's terrible strategy when faced with adversity? He thinks that his team isn't working hard enough and runs them around in practice. This is better than changing your strategy or trying to retool fundamentals?

Roy went on to explain his strategy a bit more by saying that it would teach the players mind over matter. Toughing them up by pushing them to accomplish tasks that intimidate them. I can appreciate his intentions and realize that an additional result would be great conditioning.

As far as this version of the heels being a great half-court team, I disagree. I think they will be a better half-court team, but a team that has trouble passing the ball, dribbling the ball, and post players that cannot get proper position under the basket cannot be a great half-court team. Being better from the outside will help them be better, but unless the above mentioned fundamentals have improved, they will struggle in the half-court.

[sdotbarbee]

I dont know how Roy will keep Bullock from starting after what I saw at the pro am. The few times I seen him play he was aggresive and took theball to the basket. It made me think he would be the 3rd scorer behind Zeller and Barnes all 3 avg double figures. And yes I think Zeller if healthy will lead UNC in scoring because Barnes being the focal point of the opposing defenses will open up the lane for Zeller to work. He has the potential to be all acc if he can play a full season!

I don't think you can base much on the Pro-am because there was not alot of D played at least the times I went. To me when I have seen Bullock play, outside of the Pro-am, he looked hesitant to take the ball to the basket, he would rather take jumpers and 3-pointers. Now he is a good shooter but I don't see him taking the ball to the rim alot. His defense was pretty good and I think by his junior year he will be a very good player. I think unc could be #2 in the ACC but I also thought that last year and look what happened. It all depends on how this team responds to roy and when they have a loss. When they have a loss does roy throw someone "under the bus" and does it snowball out of control like last year. Last years unc team had a ton of talent but look what happend and I think the same thing can happen this year especially with an injury to a big man since they are so thin up front.

[sdotbarbee]

I dunno, I think Strickland's shooting was pretty consistent last year.I guess Strickland and McDonald will improve this year, but they have so far to go. I have to think that Bullock is the better bet for big minutes.

Yeah consistantly bad! He shot 23% from 3-point range and if your shooting guard can't shoot 3's that doesn't leave you in a good spot.

[sdotbarbee]

Very good post though Kong, you make alot more sense than about 3/4 of the IC. I saw one guy saying Barnes>Singler, Bullock=Smith and of course Zeller and Henson were > than the Plumlees. He also said Duke would average 68ppg, so I respect alot of what you say just because your glasses aren't tinted as light blue as many other unc fans.:D

[superdave]

Hey Kong,
How do you see the season playing out? Do they run out of the gates then fade when the younger players hit the wall? Or do they grow up over the season and address some of their deficiencies?

The front line seems so fragile, yet talented. The PG situation might be covered up a little if Barnes is used as a creator.

Super "maybe they improve to 21-16 this year" Dave

[kong123]

Very good post though Kong, you make alot more sense than about 3/4 of the IC. I saw one guy saying Barnes>Singler, Bullock=Smith and of course Zeller and Henson were > than the Plumlees. He also said Duke would average 68ppg, so I respect alot of what you say just because your glasses aren't tinted as light blue as many other unc fans.:D

I think HB will be better than Singler in the NBA. Bullock and Smith are simular types of player but for some reason I see them differently. Bullock's size will perhaps give him a better upside in the long run if he can shoot the 3 as well as he is anticipated to shoot it. I think there is no doubt Singler and Smith are much better and more savvy players at this point in time and probably will be for the next couple years. JH and TZ will probably have greater offensive output this season than the Plumlee brothers this year, but their role on Duke's team is completely different than the UNC's players role on this years team. The Plumlee's have big shoe's to fill this year. Z and Thomas did many little things that it takes to win a championship. If they can fill that role and be happy within that role, Duke can go back to back. :(

[kong123]

Hey Kong,
How do you see the season playing out? Do they run out of the gates then fade when the younger players hit the wall? Or do they grow up over the season and address some of their deficiencies?

The front line seems so fragile, yet talented. The PG situation might be covered up a little if Barnes is used as a creator.

Super "maybe they improve to 21-16 this year" Dave

They are going to run early and often. Roy wants to score before the defense gets set. They have the horses to run and I think KM passing ability will help him fit in perfectly in this scheme. We have a ton of guys that can finish at the rim, so time will tell. By the end of the season, i believe UNC will be a much stronger team. I think this team has learned a lot from last year, whether this will translate into a team that will play smarter basketball, well that remains to be seen.

[superdave]

They are going to run early and often. Roy wants to score before the defense gets set. They have the horses to run and I think KM passing ability will help him fit in perfectly in this scheme. We have a ton of guys that can finish at the rim, so time will tell. By the end of the season, i believe UNC will be a much stronger team. I think this team has learned a lot from last year, whether this will translate into a team that will play smarter basketball, well that remains to be seen.

So you think they will dominate some teams when things are clicking but struggle when they make mental mistakes and get sloppy? Sounds like a Roy Williams team!

[sdotbarbee]

I think HB will be better than Singler in the NBA. Bullock and Smith are simular types of player but for some reason I see them differently. Bullock's size will perhaps give him a better upside in the long run if he can shoot the 3 as well as he is anticipated to shoot it. I think there is no doubt Singler and Smith are much better and more savvy players at this point in time and probably will be for the next couple years. JH and TZ will probably have greater offensive output this season than the Plumlee brothers this year, but their role on Duke's team is completely different than the UNC's players role on this years team. The Plumlee's have big shoe's to fill this year. Z and Thomas did many little things that it takes to win a championship. If they can fill that role and be happy within that role, Duke can go back to back. :(

To me Singler, who was MOP of the final four averaged 18ppg, 7rpg, and shot 40% from 3 has already shown what he can do and HB, although he is a very good player, has not stepped on an NCAA court yet. Same goes for Bullock against Smith, Nolan has gotten better every year and there is no reason to think he won't be better this year and that should scare alot of teams. Zeller, offensively, is definitely better than either Plumlee but I don't know that you can say the same for Henson and I think defensively the Plumlees are better than Zeller. That also being said I think Henson is the best defensive player unc has and is probably better than both Plumlees. I think the front court of both teams are very similar except Duke has more depth. I don't think there is anyway that unc's backcourt can compare to Duke's, but we will have to wait and see. Coach K said Curry is the best shooter on the team and he will be coming off the bench, which is pretty nice problem to have.

[Kedsy]

When Duke and UNC play each other anything can happen...save for last year when the game in Cameron was over after just a couple of minutes.

If "anything" can happen, that would include a blowout, wouldn't it?

[Billy Dat]

I got it but did not want to credit you with such a profound insight. Keep Thirsty. :cool:

It was a good post. Perhaps down the road, there will be a good post with great character. If that level is achieved, there is potential for a great post. Just be you, kong123, you is enough.

[flyingdutchdevil]

It was a good post. Perhaps down the road, there will be a good post with great character. If that level is achieved, there is potential for a great post. Just be you, kong123, you is enough.

Nominate this for quote of the year.

Still laughing.

[CharlestonDevil]

I believe this team will be better than last years team. I believe we will make many of the same mistakes, but because of our ability to score quickly and more easily, I think we will win 25+ games. I think #2 in the ACC is possible and I think UNC can give Duke a game in the Smith Center. I think we are more equipped to guard you this year than we were last. Whether or not we show the ability or the heart needed to play defense is yet to be seen. This is my best guess based on last years impressions as well as what I have read in the press.

Great insight kong. You might be the most reasonable tarheel I've ever encountered.

I think the same 2 factors, in opposite ways, will determine the outcome of our teams. For the guards, obviously, Duke has the best backcourt in the nation. No one else has the combination of talent or depth that we do. And last year, while we lacked the depth of this year's team, our guard play was still superb. Good guard play is like a good running game in football. It will expose or cover up a lot of weaknesses. The best evidence of this was UNC in Cameron.

Both Duke and UNC will have excellent wing play, so no need to detail that here.

I see the bigs also being critical to our success. If Mason or Miles does not develop as expected, or if Zeller doesn't stay healthy, or if Henson continues to struggle with the physicality of the post, other teams with size and strength will be able to execute their game plan much more effectively against us. Unless Mason has a breakout year I still give your big guys the advantage.

[kong123]

I think it will be interesting to see how KI gets Dukes bigs involved. If his penetration is as deadly as Lawson's, and the Plumlee's are ready and able to take advantage of his passes, then Duke will have incredible balance. If the Plumlee's have to rely on offensive rebounds to score the bulk of their points, then perhaps that is good too- but at some point you have to worry about ego's. No doubt K will control his team's attitudes the best that he can, but with so much talent it may be tough at times.

Defensively, the P's have the athletic ability to be effective, its the mental side that may get them in trouble. I feel that Mason felt his athletic ability would overwhelm opponents at time and therefore got into a bit of foul trouble. If he plays smarter, allows the game to come to him defensively, he should be fine. I think Henson maybe the same way. He has a reputation as a shot blocker and if he tries too hard to live up to that reputation, he can be too aggressive and get into foul trouble. Zeller has poor footwork and therefore uses his hands to slow down defenders. He has done this in both of his first two years and if he doesn't improve, he will be a liability.

I think balancing the scoring and playing time of the guards will be Duke's biggest challenge. When your team is winning big, things seem to just work out, so perhaps you will not have to deal with this often. The other challenge will be the P's doing what it takes on the boards and on the defensive end. They need to be stat stuffers in order for their D to rival last years D. But then again, this is a different type of team that may not require as much in order to win games. Duke could just outscore people like the 2009 UNC team did.

[budwom]

I think it will be interesting to see how KI gets Dukes bigs involved. If his penetration is as deadly as Lawson's, and the Plumlee's are ready and able to take advantage of his passes, then Duke will have incredible balance. If the Plumlee's have to rely on offensive rebounds to score the bulk of their points, then perhaps that is good too- but at some point you have to worry about ego's. No doubt K will control his team's attitudes the best that he can, but with so much talent it may be tough at times.

Defensively, the P's have the athletic ability to be effective, its the mental side that may get them in trouble. I feel that Mason felt his athletic ability would overwhelm opponents at time and therefore got into a bit of foul trouble. If he plays smarter, allows the game to come to him defensively, he should be fine. I think Henson maybe the same way. He has a reputation as a shot blocker and if he tries too hard to live up to that reputation, he can be too aggressive and get into foul trouble. Zeller has poor footwork and therefore uses his hands to slow down defenders. He has done this in both of his first two years and if he doesn't improve, he will be a liability.

I think balancing the scoring and playing time of the guards will be Duke's biggest challenge. When your team is winning big, things seem to just work out, so perhaps you will not have to deal with this often. The other challenge will be the P's doing what it takes on the boards and on the defensive end. They need to be stat stuffers in order for their D to rival last years D. But then again, this is a different type of team that may not require as much in order to win games. Duke could just outscore people like the 2009 UNC team did.

I suspect Los Plumlees might have noted the second half of the CTC game when Josh Hairston simply positioned himself near the hoop and took pass after pass after pass from Irving. He was the leading scorer in the game, and not because he was the best player.
Irving can penetrate at will, period, and if Los Plumlees look for the ball, it shall be delivered unto them. This I know.

[JasonEvans]

As I told my nextdoor UNC neighbor 2 years ago as he was gloating, "everything goes in cycles".

Duke fans who are in a bit of a gloating mood and predicting another down season for Carolina would do well to remember this ;)

-Jason "'nuf said" Evans

[gumbomoop]

Roy is a different type of person. I believe honest to a fault would be a good description. I don't think Roy is saying anything in the press that he hasn't already said to his players in person. Those comments from Roy were made in the press and I don't believe they are unfair. He is trying to motivate his player and lots of coaches use the press to try to do that. Is it right? I personally do not care either way. I understand you feel K doesn't do this and so you feel like anyone who does is on a lower level, but I do not think most basketball fans feel the same way.

This issue perhaps deserves its own thread, but I'll stick with this thread.

It strikes me as a fair point that K and Roy just have different approaches to motivation. At least in a team-building sense, K clearly thinks - and I'd bet a lot he has thought carefully about this - that public calling out of one's players, save in a humorous way, and even then employed sparingly, is both bad form and destructive. OTOH, Roy has adopted perhaps the more common and I guess more old-school practice [?] of calling out players to light the proverbial fire under them.

My intuition is that the calling out method is high risk/high reward. If the players don't experience respect from the coach as a general practice, the calling out is likely to backfire. It sure didn't work for Roy last year. But last year was so very weird for [both Duke and] UNC that probably we can't draw too many firm conclusions about Roy's approach.

I'd guess - only a guess - that someone like Huggins does some calling out, yet my impression is that his players take it, because there's mutual love there. Maybe Izzo, too?

Finally, that K avoids publicly calling out his guys [especially individually] obviously does not mean that he doesn't ream them out - certainly collectively and IIRC on occasion individually - during a testy timeout during a game.

[Duvall]

Duke fans who are in a bit of a gloating mood and predicting another down season for Carolina would do well to remember this ;)

As could Duke fans that express a wish to see Carolina end their down periods sooner rather than later, for the "good of the rivalry."

[MCFinARL]

Absolutely, Bob. Jason forgot to mention that Justin Knox is a career 100% shooter from beyond the arc (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=36221). Just deadly.

Well, I assume you were being humorous here, as the stat line you linked shows one shot made out of one attempt--but actually it's a 2009-10 stat, not a career stat. It appears his career percentage is 50%, because he missed the one attempt he took in 2008-09. :D

[sagegrouse]

I have always felt that team winning was learned, not innate and not necessarily a product of individual talent. Both Duke and Carolina have had relatively few bad seasons in the past 35 years, but, at least for Duke, the team has never gone from last (figuratively) to first (actually). I have always concluded that a bad team doesn't become a world-beater over a transition of just one season.

Consider these Duke examples:

1977 14-13 overall (2-10 ACC); Gminski was a freshman
1978 27-7 (8-4); Final Four team; Banks and Dennard were freshmen; Spanarkel a junior; G-man a soph.

1983 11-17 (3-11); JD & Co. were freshmen
1984 24-10 (7-7); one year older and a lot better in a very tough ACC

1995 13-18 (2-14); a legendary meltdown but a lot of really close games
1996 18-13 (8-8); one giant step forward
1997 24-9 (12-4); #1 in regular season ACC over Tim /Duncan and WF
1998 32-4 (15-1); #1 NCAA seed in Brand and Battier's freshman year

UNC:

2010 20-17 (5-11)
2011 ??-?? (?-?)

I couldn't readily find the archived data on the Doherty/Roy transition.

UNC may do a lot better, but I tend to think that ten wins in conference and 25-26 overall is a really big step forward. A 28/29-7 win season would be phenomenal.

sagegrouse

[kong123]

I have always felt that team winning was learned, not innate and not necessarily a product of individual talent. Both Duke and Carolina have had relatively few bad seasons in the past 35 years, but, at least for Duke, the team has never gone from last (figuratively) to first (actually). I have always concluded that a bad team doesn't become a world-beater over a transition of just one season.

Consider these Duke examples:

1977 14-13 overall (2-10 ACC); Gminski was a freshman
1978 27-7 (8-4); Final Four team; Banks and Dennard were freshmen; Spanarkel a junior; G-man a soph.

1983 11-17 (3-11); JD & Co. were freshmen
1984 24-10 (7-7); one year older and a lot better in a very tough ACC

1995 13-18 (2-14); a legendary meltdown but a lot of really close games
1996 18-13 (8-8); one giant step forward
1997 24-9 (12-4); #1 in regular season ACC over Tim /Duncan and WF
1998 32-4 (15-1); #1 NCAA seed in Brand and Battier's freshman year

UNC:

2010 20-17 (5-11)
2011 ??-?? (?-?)

I couldn't readily find the archived data on the Doherty/Roy transition.

UNC may do a lot better, but I tend to think that ten wins in conference and 25-26 overall is a really big step forward. A 28/29-7 win season would be phenomenal.

sagegrouse

I think it all depends on health and consistent outside shooting.

[Faison1]

Originally Posted by Faison1
As I told my nextdoor UNC neighbor 2 years ago as he was gloating, "everything goes in cycles".


Duke fans who are in a bit of a gloating mood and predicting another down season for Carolina would do well to remember this ;)

-Jason "'nuf said" Evans

Just to make sure you know I am not gloating, what I was trying to convey to Kong was, "Even though your team may not be great this year, they will eventually cycle back to what they were a couple years ago." (Unfortunately.)

[GODUKEGO]

I can imagine the fun that the Crazies could have with this one. Pansies are pretty cheap!!!

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2010/10/roy-williams-i-thought-they-players-were-a-bunch-of-pansies/1

[

[ACCBBallFan]

So good post Kong with great info that I for one had no previous insight to. My thoughts at this point are, for one there is no way the train wreck of last year repeats itself. Just do not see that happening. Now if you are going to tell me that Zeller breaks another bone and loses most of the year, and Henson gets hurt or is foul prone then maybe, but I would not bet on it.

If it were me, I would play Henson and Zeller at the 5, each backing the other up and it not mattering which one starts and which one comes off the bench. I put Harry at the 4, Bullock at the 3, McDonald (I think he ends up being better than Strickland) at the 2, and the winner in practice between Drew and Marshall at pg. With this collection of players, going small with one big on the floor is their best chance of success in my view. If Knox is as good as the reports, then you may can get away with rotating the 3 bigs and keeping 2 of them on the floor for lots of minutes. I will have to be shown, however, that Knox is worthy of that praise.

They have talent, there is no doubt, and I do think Harry is as good as advertised, but without a quality pg, it makes it tougher for him to dominate. I do think Marshall take the pg spot by the start of ACC play. He is slow, but he is a good ball-handler, and passer. I don't see him being turnover prone unless the freshman jitters kick in.

I think they win 20 games, finish in the top 5 of the ACC, and make the NCAA tournament as a 7 to 9 seed. They could rise above that a little bit, but I honestly do not think they can finish 2nd in the ACC unless the unbalanced schedule swing's heavily in their favor.

That's what I would do too, or even have Barnes and Bullock guard one another some so each develops their skills. On Offense they would still play as WF's as Singler does, but like Kyle Singler in his freshman year having to defend guys so much bigger may tire them over the course of the season.

The main thing Knox apparently brings is crunching screens a la Zoubs. He is mostly insuarance. UNC could as you suggest have Zeller and Henson share the post and backup Barnes at "PF".

It would mainly be a 4 man rotation with the C-"PF" and WF manned by 3 of these 4 most of the time {Zeller- Henson-Barnes-Bullock]. Knox can be a backup big and Watts a backup WF when 2 of these 4 are not available due to fouls or injury.

Even with the weight gain, Henson weighs no more than Barnes or Bullock and they can shoot from deep which he cannot.

With no Will Graves, Roy is using Jusitn Watts, all 6'4" 210 pounds of him as the backup PF. How is that going to help Henson learn to hold poisition against guys that weigh 20pounds more than him?

Might as well have him practice half the time vs. Zeller or Knox in post and the other half vs. Harrison Barnes who though same weight is only a couple inches shorter rather than half a foot shorter like Watts.

The other half of the time Barnes can get used to teaming with Bullock rather than defending him to overcome that potential downside of having them guard one another the other half of the time.

Every ACC team except UNC and Wake who would have had size until Tony Woods got suspended, has a big PF.

Richard Howell was huge already but apparently Tracy Smth is being moved to PF to practice his NBA position per agreement with El Sid.

Height Weight NAME
6' 08" 209 Harrison Barnes UNC at PF/SF
6' 10" 210 John Henson UNC at C/PF

6' 08" 266 Richard Howell NC St at center

6' 09" 255 Julian Gamble Miami

6' 08" 247 Tracy Smith NC St at PF
6' 10" 240 Bernard James FSU

6' 08" 239 Mike Scott UVA
6' 08" 235 Devin Booker Clemson
6' 10" 230 Mason Plumlee Duke
6' 10" 230 Ryan Kelly Duke
6' 07" 230 Dino Gregory MD
6' 07" 230 Jeff Allen VaT

6' 08" 228 Joe Trapani BC
6' 09" 227 Chris Singleton FSU PF-SF
6' 08" 226 Kammeon Holsey GaT
6' 08" 220 Melvin Tabb WF

6' 08" 242 Cortney Dunn BC backup PF

6' 07" 227 Josh Hairston Duke backup PF
6' 08" 225 James Padgett MD backup PF

[whereinthehellami]

Here is a link to a thread on IC (http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=78&f=1410&t=6590384) from a coach who attended the coaching clinic at UNC. His post is interesting and decently unbiased.

I'm not sold on UNC's leadership and team chemistry. I think they have enough talent to beat most teams on a nightly basis but when it counts I think they will come up short. I've heard multitiple times this off/pre-season from Duke players on how well they are gelling. Smith and Singler telling Irving that they need and want him to drive the car. I'm not hearing that from UNC and I think that speaks volumes. Outside of Prince Harry, I don't see a dominat team player, someone who wants to win so badly that they put the team above all else. It seems like Drew, Mcdonald, Strickland, and Henson have all had seom negative team related press. And now you got some clickish young players pushing them. Do you think they are helping each other in practice?

I'm also not sold on the health of UNC's frontcourt. They are thin, paper thin (for Henson). And they are starting the season with some nagging injuries. I've seen that Henson has some knee soreness bothering him and this is not good for our pastel loving friends. The first time I saw him run I though my Gawd this kid is a physical freak but will his knees hold out? And Zeller has had a number of physical ailments, not good for a big guy. and Roy wants to run even more this year? How about Watts at the four and Knox at the five? Sounds good to me.

[gumbomoop]

Here is a link to a thread on IC (http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=78&f=1410&t=6590384) from a coach who attended the coaching clinic at UNC. His post is interesting and decently unbiased.

Thanks for this link. Highly recommended, very detailed, player by player, mostly accentuating the positives, but this coach sees the problem areas, too.

[timmy c]

Well guys, we are only a few weeks away from starting a new season and I must admit I am a bit afraid of a repeat of last years performance. From a few early accounts of practice, the point guard situation is still a huge problem. LD still makes too many mistakes. KM is as slow as advertised and apparently isn't picking up the offense as quickly as some expected. Ultimately, this team can go only as far as the pg will take them... Old one here (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?21553).)

kong, thanks for your post!

The idea that UNC will struggle without a top notch point is overblown. That was the same argument that all the pundits made last year about the ’09-’10 Duke squad.

UNC wasn’t missing a point as much as they were missing someone who could initiate their low-post offense. As the season rolled on, teams figured out how to negate UNC’s advantage in the paint. Zeller, Thompson, Davis and the Wear twins all needed stability and someone who could get them the ball at the right spot and time. Larry Drew tried, but the team as a whole did not value possessions like the sainted Scheyer did.

LD II’s turnovers came for two reasons. (1) Teams ignored the UNC shooters and doubled him; or (2) they sagged into the middle and waited for him to try and force the ball inside.

The solution is to use HB as a point forward - the college version of Scottie Pippen. Barnes worked on his handle and passing skills at the Chris Paul Elite camp this summer. His height will allow him to see over his defender to start the offensive sets. Barnes will have more weapons with a healthy Zeller, a bigger Hensen – playing at his natural position – and better outside shooters to keep defenses from sagging.
Coach K did not have a true point last year, but Scheyer did an amazing job of initiating the offense and getting the ball to the right spots. Once he did, he became another shooter to spread the floor and his height gave other small guards fits. Expect HB to do similar things for UNC from the wing.

Ultimately, UNC will go as far as Zeller and Barnes carry them. If either of them struggles with mid-season fatigue or injuries, UNC could be in for another long year.

Thanks and enjoy the season, Kong.

[_TheFakeJWill_]

kong, thanks for your post!

The idea that UNC will struggle without a top notch point is overblown. That was the same argument that all the pundits made last year about the ’09-’10 Duke squad.

UNC wasn’t missing a point as much as they were missing someone who could initiate their low-post offense. As the season rolled on, teams figured out how to negate UNC’s advantage in the paint. Zeller, Thompson, Davis and the Wear twins all needed stability and someone who could get them the ball at the right spot and time. Larry Drew tried, but the team as a whole did not value possessions like the sainted Scheyer did.

LD II’s turnovers came for two reasons. (1) Teams ignored the UNC shooters and doubled him; or (2) they sagged into the middle and waited for him to try and force the ball inside.

The solution is to use HB as a point forward - the college version of Scottie Pippen. Barnes worked on his handle and passing skills at the Chris Paul Elite camp this summer. His height will allow him to see over his defender to start the offensive sets. Barnes will have more weapons with a healthy Zeller, a bigger Hensen – playing at his natural position – and better outside shooters to keep defenses from sagging.
Coach K did not have a true point last year, but Scheyer did an amazing job of initiating the offense and getting the ball to the right spots. Once he did, he became another shooter to spread the floor and his height gave other small guards fits. Expect HB to do similar things for UNC from the wing.

Ultimately, UNC will go as far as Zeller and Barnes carry them. If either of them struggles with mid-season fatigue or injuries, UNC could be in for another long year.

Thanks and enjoy the season, Kong.

phenomenal point! But erase it so ole Roy doesn't see it ;) Highly unlikely seeing they are stacked w/ mediocre PG's though but anything could happen. Would def be interesting thing to watch. Would remind me of Evan Turner of last year.

[timmy c]

phenomenal point! But erase it so ole Roy doesn't see it ;) Highly unlikely seeing they are stacked w/ mediocre PG's though but anything could happen. Would def be interesting thing to watch. Would remind me of Evan Turner of last year.

Evan Turner is a great example! Now we'll see if Ole Roy's system is flexible enough to allow Barnes to play that way. If not, HB might regret taking his talents to chapel hill.

[Bob Green]

The idea that UNC will struggle without a top notch point is overblown. That was the same argument that all the pundits made last year about the ’09-’10 Duke squad.



I completely disagree so we will need to revisit this topic in late March/early April. For the record, in my opinion, if Larry Drew II and Kendall Marshall struggle, Carolina will struggle. However, perhaps you're right and I'm full of it. Time will tell.

[oldnavy]

I completely disagree so we will need to revisit this topic in late March/early April. For the record, in my opinion, if Larry Drew II and Kendall Marshall struggle, Carolina will struggle. However, perhaps you're right and I'm full of it. Time will tell.

Bob, I agree with you. The pace that Roy insisted on running last year without a PG that could orchestrate the offense did the most harm IMO. I doubt that Roy will go to a slower more half-court game this year either. The question will be, has DrewII improved enough to run the high pace offense or can KM go at that pace? I just cannot see Ol Roy changing his style to fit his players. He is running them to death in practice right now, so that would lead us to believe that he will want to push it hard this year as well. We will have to see.

[ClosetHurleyFan]

Bob, I agree with you. The pace that Roy insisted on running last year without a PG that could orchestrate the offense did the most harm IMO. I doubt that Roy will go to a slower more half-court game this year either. The question will be, has DrewII improved enough to run the high pace offense or can KM go at that pace? I just cannot see Ol Roy changing his style to fit his players. He is running them to death in practice right now, so that would lead us to believe that he will want to push it hard this year as well. We will have to see.

As another Carolina fan, I agree with you, I tyhink you need strong (not lawson type but strong) point guard play for Carolina under Roy to thrive. That being said, I dont think it is unreasonable to expect significant improvement this year under Larry Drew. I think back to King Rice in the early 90s as an example of a point guard that was quite frankly atrocious as a freshman and sophomore, who through hard work, practice and repitition, turned into a pretty good point guard in the Carolina system by his junior year. His dad is a coach, this is his third year and he has better scorers to get the ball to. Not unreasonable at all for him to do well this year and if he does, I think Carolina could win 25 and potentially get to sweet 16. But Carolina fans should accept that after last year, that would be a very good season. You dont turn a cruise liner around in one year, although the 2005 championship team certainly went from average to great in one year, although admitedly, they had Ray Felton at point guard!

[NSDukeFan]

I think this year will provide an interesting test case of the "Roy can't win without a good, lightning fast point guard" theory. I think it is more a case of Roy's teams aren't as successful when they are less talented overall and/or they have chemistry issues and implode. I agree that he didn't adjust his system to match his personnel last year, but still would tend to give the hall of fame coach a bit of benefit of the doubt based on his 20 straight years of making the tournament (which he is happy to tell you) vs. one disastrous season last year.

[Class of '94]

UNC and NC State will have private scrimmages this weekend.

Here is the link: http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/10/28/764277/pack-heels-to-play-private-scrimmages.html

I wanted to get people's thoughts on the merits of UNC doing this again this year. I know there are advantages to having controlled scrimmages with another team so that you can work on different areas that might be lacking. But saying that, I find it interesting that Coach K tends to focus more on developing his team by using intrasquad scrimmages and exhibition games as opposed to scrimmaging with other teams in these closed door sessions. These closed door scrimmages didnt't seem to work out well for Carolina last year. It also appears that Coach K has really made a concerted effort to give the media and fans more access to the team; whereas Roy appears to be more guarded with his teams as evidenced by these private-closed door scrimmages. I'm not judging whether or not one approach is better than the other; I just find the contrast interesting.

[NSDukeFan]

UNC and NC State will have private scrimmages this weekend.

Here is the link: http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/10/28/764277/pack-heels-to-play-private-scrimmages.html

I wanted to get people's thoughts on the merits of UNC doing this again this year. I know there are advantages to having controlled scrimmages with another team so that you can work on different areas that might be lacking. But saying that, I find it interesting that Coach K tends to focus more on developing his team by using intrasquad scrimmages and exhibition games as opposed to scrimmaging with other teams in these closed door sessions. These closed door scrimmages didnt't seem to work out well for Carolina last year. It also appears that Coach K has really made a concerted effort to give the media and fans more access to the team; whereas Roy appears to be more guarded with his teams as evidenced by these private-closed door scrimmages. I'm not judging whether or not one approach is better than the other; I just find the contrast interesting.

I don't know whether one is better than the other, though it is nice for the fans to be able to see the team play exhibitions. As far as the closed door scrimmages, I have a hard time believing they had any negative effect on Carolina's season. UNC started off fine last year and didn't struggle until the new year. I doubt that closed scrimmages in October were a cause.

[Class of '94]

I don't know whether one is better than the other, though it is nice for the fans to be able to see the team play exhibitions. As far as the closed door scrimmages, I have a hard time believing they had any negative effect on Carolina's season. UNC started off fine last year and didn't struggle until the new year. I doubt that closed scrimmages in October were a cause.

I agree.....I just couldn't resist taking another jab at last year's UNC debacle.....:)

From a strategic perspective, I guess it could be an advantage to have these closed door scrimmages because they allow you to work on areas you need to while not giving the teams you play early in the season extra footage of your new team that the opposing coaches can use to prepare for the games.

[kong123]

I agree.....I just couldn't resist taking another jab at last year's UNC debacle.....:)

From a strategic perspective, I guess it could be an advantage to have these closed door scrimmages because they allow you to work on areas you need to while not giving the teams you play early in the season extra footage of your new team that the opposing coaches can use to prepare for the games.

if everyone remembers correctly, the details of last year closed scrimmage with Vanderbilt was posted online. If there was ever a precursor to last seasons debacle, that was it. UNC lost by 20. Two issues that were noted in the scrimmage was poor ball handling and lack of heart. Sound familiar?

In a series of interviews on the IC, Roy mentions that after practice, HB sticks around and goes through shooting drills. The other guys see this and it makes them stick around and conduct their own drills. Some do it because they want to improve, others do it so they will not look bad. Either way, it is good to see someone with great focus and drive push the other players to want to improve. That is a sign of leadership missing from last years team.

[Duvall]

if everyone remembers correctly, the details of last year closed scrimmage with Vanderbilt was posted online. If there was ever a precursor to last seasons debacle, that was it. UNC lost by 20. Two issues that were noted in the scrimmage was poor ball handling and lack of heart. Sound familiar?

In a series of interviews on the IC, Roy mentions that after practice, HB sticks around and goes through shooting drills. The other guys see this and it makes them stick around and conduct their own drills. Some do it because they want to improve, others do it so they will not look bad. Either way, it is good to see someone with great focus and drive push the other players to want to improve. That is a sign of leadership missing from last years team.

If they win, it will be a sign of strong leadership and drive. If they lose, it will be a sign of divisiveness and bad chemistry, with upperclassmen upset about getting shown up by a freshman.

[Class of '94]

if everyone remembers correctly, the details of last year closed scrimmage with Vanderbilt was posted online. If there was ever a precursor to last seasons debacle, that was it. UNC lost by 20. Two issues that were noted in the scrimmage was poor ball handling and lack of heart. Sound familiar?

In a series of interviews on the IC, Roy mentions that after practice, HB sticks around and goes through shooting drills. The other guys see this and it makes them stick around and conduct their own drills. Some do it because they want to improve, others do it so they will not look bad. Either way, it is good to see someone with great focus and drive push the other players to want to improve. That is a sign of leadership missing from last years team.

This is no way attempt to take a swipe at you Kong; I appreciate you giving your insight and perspective on what's going on with Carolina. I think it is good that you have someone setting a goo example of a strong work ethic; but I would be concerned if your example is coming from a freshma and not your upperclassmen, who are supposed to be the leaders because of their experience. Make no mistake, Kyrie may be a starting PG and floor leader; but our seniors, Nolan and Kyle, are the leaders of this Duke team; and they set the pace and example. When you look at Syracuse championship team, Carmelo may have been the star; but the team leaders were upperclassmen. And when you look at teams with a freshman being the star and the leader of the team (i.e., ansas State with Beasley and Texas with Durant), those teams didn't make it very far in the NCAA tournament or win conference post season tournaments.

[elvis14]

Am I the only one that, sadly, sees a big upside for Zeller? I know he's been injured and any discussion of him starts with "if he's healthy" but the times I've seen him play he reminds me of Miles and Mason in that he looks like he could break out and dominate at any minute....only it hasn't really happened yet (for any of the 3). My concern is that Zeller stays healthy and plays up to his potential.

As for UNC as a whole, sadly, I think they will recover quite well from last year's debacle and play some pretty good ball this year. As others have noted, Roy's dagum teams don't get to be dominate until they have a dominant PG but dagummit they can still play well enough to be #2 in the ACC and be a top 10 team.

Kong, thanks for starting this thread with some fairly unbiased analysis. As much as I despise UNC sports, I still like hearing about what's going on over there and appreciate your input.

[kong123]

This is no way attempt to take a swipe at you Kong; I appreciate you giving your insight and perspective on what's going on with Carolina. I think it is good that you have someone setting a goo example of a strong work ethic; but I would be concerned if your example is coming from a freshma and not your upperclassmen, who are supposed to be the leaders because of their experience. Make no mistake, Kyrie may be a starting PG and floor leader; but our seniors, Nolan and Kyle, are the leaders of this Duke team; and they set the pace and example. When you look at Syracuse championship team, Carmelo may have been the star; but the team leaders were upperclassmen. And when you look at teams with a freshman being the star and the leader of the team (i.e., ansas State with Beasley and Texas with Durant), those teams didn't make it very far in the NCAA tournament or win conference post season tournaments.

it may not be ideal, but last years upperclassmen provided ZERO leadership. The lone senior was kicked off of the team for the second time in his career. The two juniors, Zeller has played less minutes in his two years than Strickland played last year. Drew was the most criticized player on a UNC team that I can remember and I don't think he is leadership material. For better or worse, HB is the leader. He maybe a freshman but he is also our best player. Better him than no one.

[CharlestonDevil]

it may not be ideal, but last years upperclassmen provided ZERO leadership. The lone senior was kicked off of the team for the second time in his career. The two juniors, Zeller has played less minutes in his two years than Strickland played last year. Drew was the most criticized player on a UNC team that I can remember and I don't think he is leadership material. For better or worse, HB is the leader. He maybe a freshman but he is also our best player. Better him than no one.

In defense of Kong exceptional talents like HB can make great leaders regardless of age or class. Not that I would ever put HB in the same league as these guys, but Kevin Durant and Michael Jordan became great players because of their incredible work ethic (see K's comments on Durant during the FIBA championships and James Worthy's discussions of 1 on 1 games with MJ as a freshman).

These guys were incredible competitors, and if HB can show that same kind of fire and intensity it will translate to his team on the court.

[cato]

Drew was the most criticized player on a UNC team that I can remember

More so that Jason Capel? I can't remember all the gory details, but I do remember his big brother sticking up for him at some point during his Senior season.

p.s., googling around a bit, I just saw that Jason is now the head coach at Appalachian State. Good for him! I guess the coaching force runs strong in that family. Weird how parallel the brother's careers have been.

[Class of '94]

In defense of Kong exceptional talents like HB can make great leaders regardless of age or class. Not that I would ever put HB in the same league as these guys, but Kevin Durant and Michael Jordan became great players because of their incredible work ethic (see K's comments on Durant during the FIBA championships and James Worthy's discussions of 1 on 1 games with MJ as a freshman).

These guys were incredible competitors, and if HB can show that same kind of fire and intensity it will translate to his team on the court.

But Kevin Durant couldn't get his Texas team over the hump to win a conference championship or go deep in the playoffs. Saying that, Barnes appears to be even more mature and focused at this stage than Kevin; so I think that bodes well for Carolina.

[kong123]

But Kevin Durant couldn't get his Texas team over the hump to win a conference championship or go deep in the playoffs. Saying that, Barnes appears to be even more mature and focused at this stage than Kevin; so I think that bodes well for Carolina.

who knows, he may be great or he may all be hype. the team may follow his lead like they did T. Hans or they may jump ship like they did last year. It will be fun to watch.

[Bob Green]

Am I the only one that, sadly, sees a big upside for Zeller? I know he's been injured and any discussion of him starts with "if he's healthy"....

If he's healthy, Zeller has the upside to be an impact player, so no you are not the only one who sees a big upside. As far as health is concerned, Duke fans need look no further than our own Brian Zoubek for an example of a player who excelled after being oft injured.

[Kedsy]

Drew was the most criticized player on a UNC team that I can remember

How about Adam Boone?

[kong123]

Early word from todays scrimmage with UNCG is the Heels won 89-49. No word on any statistics, but beating a team by 40 at anytime of the season is nice. The logic on the IC is that Duke only beat UNC-G by 34 last year, so we should win a NC! I understand its just a scrimmage and not a real game, so just accept it for what its worth.

[billyj]

Yeah clearly AP poll got it wrong, they beat UNC-G by 40 points!! :p

[Bob Green]

The logic on the IC is that Duke only beat UNC-G by 34 last year, so we should win a NC!

Question: What are two words that should never be used in the same sentence?
Answer: Logic and IC.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Early word from todays scrimmage with UNCG is the Heels won 89-49. No word on any statistics, but beating a team by 40 at anytime of the season is nice. The logic on the IC is that Duke only beat UNC-G by 34 last year, so we should win a NC! I understand its just a scrimmage and not a real game, so just accept it for what its worth.
Good thing they didn't play Vandy again.

[kong123]

Good thing they didn't play Vandy again.

good thing for Vandy!!:cool:

[Newton_14]

What to take from the scrimmage? Appears UNC-G has a really horrible team this year....

[Gthoma2a]

good thing for Vandy!!:cool:

That's got to be a joke, so I guess it is okay that I am laughing at seeing this. If not, it is a little early to be this cocky. It isn't that early season optimism is bad, but being this confident after a season that saw you lose the NIT is a little... funny.

[kong123]

no, not being cocky, just trying to have a sense of humor about it. reread everything that I have posted and assume that I am trying to be funny, its much better that way.

[77devil]

so just accept it for what its worth.

I do. A scrimmage against UNC-G is worth nothing.

[kong123]

I do. A scrimmage against UNC-G is worth nothing.

it does mean something if you wish to discuss the upcoming season and the quality of UNC's team. If this is something that doesn't interest you, then perhaps you shouldn't visit this thread or even respond.

[FireOgilvie]

Early word from todays scrimmage with UNCG is the Heels won 89-49. No word on any statistics, but beating a team by 40 at anytime of the season is nice. The logic on the IC is that Duke only beat UNC-G by 34 last year, so we should win a NC! I understand its just a scrimmage and not a real game, so just accept it for what its worth.

I think UNC-G had 8 wins last year and they lost their leading scorer and probably 3 or 4 of their best 8 players. They're probably going to win less than 10 games again this year.

Nolan didn't play in the UNC-G game last year. Mason was injured and out for that one too.

Not that it matters, but I'm sure the scholars over at IC don't consider such things.

[kong123]

I think UNC-G had 8 wins last year and they lost their leading scorer and probably 3 or 4 of their best 8 players. They're probably going to win less than 10 games again this year.

Nolan didn't play in the UNC-G game last year. Mason was injured and out for that one too.

Not that it matters, but I'm sure the scholars over at IC don't consider such things.

again, it was a joke. relax guys, Duke is still pre-season #1. Just thought it would be interesting to discuss in much the same way it was interesting for you guys to discuss Duke's first game this season. Take it easy guys!

[Dukeface88]

Take it easy guys!

NEVAR!!!


Seriously though, without any kind of stats or tape, there isn't much to discuss. Which is sort of the point, I suppose.

[kong123]

the stats and details will slowly trickle out. It was a closed scrimmage, so it may be a while.

Dexter tweeted that it was nice to see all of their hard work pay off. Someone also said that Dexter was the leading scorer. If that is true, through the first 3 scrimmage games, the two in the Bahama's and this one at UNC-G, Dexter has been either the leading scorer or 2nd leading scorer. That surprises me considering how he played last year. With his speed and athletic ability, if he did improve his ability to score, he could have a Lawson like effect for the team. I know that may be a bit of a stretch, but he has some of the tools.

[Duvall]

the stats and details will slowly trickle out. It was a closed scrimmage, so it may be a while.

Dexter tweeted that it was nice to see all of their hard work pay off. Someone also said that Dexter was the leading scorer. If that is true, through the first 3 scrimmage games, the two in the Bahama's and this one at UNC-G, Dexter has been either the leading scorer or 2nd leading scorer. That surprises me considering how he played last year. With his speed and athletic ability, if he did improve his ability to score, he could have a Lawson like effect for the team. I know that may be a bit of a stretch, but he has some of the tools.

Yeah, just a bit. He just needs to work on his passing, shooting, and avoiding turnovers, and he'll be right there.

[kong123]

Yeah, just a bit. He just needs to work on his passing, shooting, and avoiding turnovers, and he'll be right there.

at least he has the speed part. speed is a natural skill, the others you mentioned can be learned and improved upon.

[Duvall]

at least he has the speed part. speed is a natural skill, the others you mentioned can be learned and improved upon.

Perhaps. But we're talking about a *lot* of work. More than can happen in one year, is my guess.

[kong123]

Perhaps. But we're talking about a *lot* of work. More than can happen in one year, is my guess.

I slightly disagree. This year he will play his natural position, the 2 guard. I think this will help him play to his strengths. Also, by having more perimeter talent around him, I believe it will open up the lane to drive more.

[77devil]

it does mean something if you wish to discuss the upcoming season and the quality of UNC's team. If this is something that doesn't interest you, then perhaps you shouldn't visit this thread or even respond.

You misunderstood me. My point was that a scrimmage against UNC-G is has no value in evaluating the Heels-in my opinion.

[kong123]

You misunderstood me. My point was that a scrimmage against UNC-G is has no value in evaluating the Heels-in my opinion.

how about a scrimmage with St. Augustine?

[kong123]

http://northcarolina.scout.com/2/1017428.html

a few impressions for the secret scrimmage

[Duvall]

how about a scrimmage with St. Augustine?

Doesn't mean much, but tells you a bit more. The game is public, so people are free to judge the results for themselves rather than relying on staff leaks. It's played like a real game, with less tinkering and experimentation.

[77devil]

how about a scrimmage with St. Augustine?

The same.

[DevilHorns]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=katz_andy&id=5755667


Adding Kendall Marshall, a guard Zeller said will challenge returning point guard Larry Drew II, to the class makes the position even better. "Hopefully, Larry won't panic like he did last year," Zeller said. "For the most part, he's done a good job, and now Kendall Marshall, who is solid, will challenge him. He's got to push him every day, and, at the same time, Kendall will give him a run for his money."


He reminds his players of this every day in practice, according to oft-injured junior center Zeller.

"He's more intense than normal," Zeller said at ACC media day in Charlotte two weeks ago. "Coach's favorite comment is 'I'm not going to have a year like last year.'"

Wow. Talk about spewing a little bit too much from the mouth. I wonder what Larry Drew thinks of Zeller's opinion of him.

And how about Roy's favorite comment. How about changing that to "We're not going to have a year like last year." Me me me me my my my my now now now now!

[oldnavy]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=katz_andy&id=5755667





Wow. Talk about spewing a little bit too much from the mouth. I wonder what Larry Drew thinks of Zeller's opinion of him.

And how about Roy's favorite comment. How about changing that to "We're not going to have a year like last year." Me me me me my my my my now now now now!

Well at least we know that Zeller listens when Roy speaks. He has picked up the fine art of "bus tossing under' or whatever you would call that!

I was just thinking. Do you believe that it has even crossed Roy's mind that the team may have been disappointed by last year? It seems that he can only focus on the effect the season had on him.... is it just me or does Roy come across as a little self-centered at times? :)

[wilko]

It seems that he can only focus on the effect the season had on him.... is it just me or does Roy come across as a little self-centered at times? :)

Well .. not only does he have to deal with not being Dean, he has to deal with not being K as well.

If Gary had a 2nd title in the cabinet; it would be virtually impossible to distinguish the best Coach Williams in the league..

I suppose all that pressure can wear on a man's soul.

[Devilsfan]

To quote the infamous Brett Butler, "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn". I'm just glad unc is unc and WE ARE DUKE!

[Bob Green]

To quote the infamous Brett Butler,...

Rhett Butler.

[MChambers]

Rhett Butler.

maybe Brett Butler said it too, during his years in the major leagues or her years as an actress (depending on which Brett he meant).

[JasonEvans]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_bI5Q2cTzIrs/TDjX-B8OooI/AAAAAAAAAGo/DGf0uOmyWZU/s400/Clark+Gable+as+Rhett+Butler.jpg vs. http://www.prolife.com/images/butlerb.jpg

-Jason "I am sure Greg Zoubek makes the same mistake too" Evans

[JasonEvans]

Brett Butler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brett_Butler_%28baseball%29)

Are you sure it wasn't Brett Butler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brett_Butler_%28comedian%29)?

--Jason "http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2007/archive/covers/96/4_22_96_205x273.jpg vs. http://farm1.static.flickr.com/190/470930443_b73e8d3ebb_o.jpg" Evans

[Orange&BlackSheep]

Are you sure it wasn't Brett Butler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brett_Butler_%28comedian%29)?

--Jason "http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2007/archive/covers/96/4_22_96_205x273.jpg vs. http://farm1.static.flickr.com/190/470930443_b73e8d3ebb_o.jpg" Evans

I thought your Rhett vs Brett with pics was much funnier than my post so I deleted mine. Of course that kind of ruined what you just posted.

Orange & Black "attempt to de-clutter made the situation worse" Sheep