2010-2011 Pre-Season USA Today/Coaches' Poll

[CLW]

No surprise as to who starts out at the top. :D

1. Duke 35-5 772 1
2. Michigan State 28-9 737 4
3. Kansas State 29-8 656 7
4. Pittsburgh 25-9 621 20
5. Ohio State 29-8 615 11
6. Villanova 25-8 552 15
7. Kansas 33-3 538 6
8. Purdue 29-6 521 12
9. North Carolina 20-17 467 NR
10. Kentucky 35-3 449 5
11. Florida 21-13 424 NR
12. Gonzaga 27-7 423 23
13. Syracuse 30-5 422 8
14. Baylor 28-8 362 10
15. Missouri 23-11 354 NR
16t. Illinois 21-15 329 NR
16t. Washington 26-10 307 21
18. Butler 33-5 245 2
19. Memphis 24-10 212 NR
20. Tennessee 28-9 158 9
21. Georgetown 23-11 129 NR
22. Temple 29-6 120 NR
23. Virginia Tech 25-9 97 NR
24. Wisconsin 24-9 91 24
25. Texas 24-10 89 NR

Dropped out: No. 3 West Virginia (31-7); No. 13 Northern Iowa (30-5); No. 14 Xavier (26-9); No. 16 New Mexico (30-5); No. 17 Cornell (29-5); No. 18 Maryland (24-9); No. 19 Saint Mary's (28-6); No. 22 Brigham Young (30-6); No. 25 Texas A&M (24-10).

Others receiving votes: San Diego State 73; Brigham Young 55; West Virginia 49; Minnesota 41; Florida State 31; UNLV 19; Wichita State 13; UCLA 12; Vanderbilt 11; North Carolina State 10; Georgia 9; Richmond 9; Xavier 8; Mississippi State 7; Utah State 6; California 5; Texas A&M 5; Murray State 4; New Mexico 4; Louisville 3; Arizona 2; Dayton 2; Marquette 2; Maryland 2; Saint Mary's 2; Northwestern 1.
***


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/usatpoll.htm

[jimsumner]

Interesting to compare the national coaches/media with the ACC media.

The former have UNC 14 places ahead of VT.

The latter picked VT to finish ahead of UNC.

The former have decided that Harrison Barnes is a legit national POY candidate and likely first-team All-America.

The latter had Barnes sixth in the pre-season voting for All-ACC and didn't give him a single vote for ACC POY.

[CLW]

IMHO, Purdue is probably overrated after the UNFORTUNATE injury to Hummel. Also, if Kanter is ruled inelligible for the entire season I could really see Kentucky being last season's UNC. They are really thin in the bigs department.

ESPN has to be craving a possible #1 v. #2 matchup in the ACC Big Ten Challenge at CIS.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Not a lot of love given to coach Love either. That's not really surprising since they are going to have to prove themselves. When was the last time a preseason poll had only 3 ACC teams ranked?

[CameronBornAndBred]

ESPN has to be craving a possible #1 v. #2 matchup in the ACC Big Ten Challenge at CIS.
So am I.

[Jeff Frosh]

November 23: Good chance we will be playing (preseason #3) Kansas State (at KC)
December 1: Preseason #2 Michigan State (at home)

[CLW]

November 23: Good chance we will be playing (preseason #3) Kansas State (at KC)
December 1: Preseason #2 Michigan State (at home)

Bah everyone knows that the "alarmingly unatheletic" boys and Coach K are afraid to play anyone.

[theAlaskanBear]

It seems pretty reasonable. But there are three glaring errors to me:

1. Obviously, unc-ch is overrated. NIT team, one which lost very significant pieces this offseason (Thompson & Co.) at #9??? Give me a break.

2. Baylor is over-rated without Udoh and with Lacedarious Dunn ?'s.

3. I have a tough time seeing Georgetown being very good minus Greg Monroe. They were wildly inconsistent.

[Greg_Newton]

Pretty cool we'll be playing #s 2 and 3 early on. That should really tell us where we stand - I almost wonder if it'd be better to lose one of them so we don't get too cocky.

Also, I don't really get all the Florida love (and neither does BD, apparently). I mean, they returned all 5 starters from a terrible team - so what? Patric Young will be good, but he's still raw for a freshman. I see them as more borderline top-25.

[theAlaskanBear]

Pretty cool we'll be playing #s 2 and 3 early on. That should really tell us where we stand - I almost wonder if it'd be better to lose one of them so we don't get too cocky.

Also, I don't really get all the Florida love (and neither does BD, apparently). I mean, they returned all 5 starters from a terrible team - so what? Patric Young will be good, but he's still raw for a freshman. I see them as more borderline top-25.

I think they will be pretty improved. You said it yourself: they returned all five starters, and they were very competitive last year. Will they be as good as UK, or Miss St? Nope, but the SEC is a low bar to hurdle.

[SilkyJ]

Pretty cool we'll be playing #s 2 and 3 early on. That should really tell us where we stand - I almost wonder if it'd be better to lose one of them so we don't get too cocky.


I wouldn't worry about getting cocky. Coach will take care of that.

What I'm concerned with is learning and improvement. We aren't looking to peak in December. Last year we peaked well. Absurdly well. I want to play these games so our guys can learn early on what things they need to work on to be an elite level team. Regardless of win or lose, I want our young guys to take things away that they can improve upon.

[Faison1]

The late-November/early-December stretch is going to be pretty interesting.

It's hard to imagine anyone would not rank our schedule as one of the toughest in the nation. IIRC, I think the Sports Illustrated article had us at 8th toughest OOC schedule......what a load of garbage, if you ask me.

[Greg_Newton]

I think they will be pretty improved. You said it yourself: they returned all five starters, and they were very competitive last year. Will they be as good as UK, or Miss St? Nope, but the SEC is a low bar to hurdle.

Oh I don't doubt they'll be competitive in the SEC, but preseason #11 seems pretty darn high to me. A sixth place SEC 21-13 team doesn't get that much better with an off-season of practicing...

By that logic, VT should be top 10!

ETA: I think the SEC will be pretty awful all-around this year. I'm honestly not sure if I'd pick any SEC team in the top 5 of the big east, were they in that league.

[airowe]

I think they will be pretty improved. You said it yourself: they returned all five starters, and they were very competitive last year. Will they be as good as UK, or Miss St? Nope, but the SEC is a low bar to hurdle.

I think Florida will be much better than UK, at least while Kanter is out, and also better than Mississippi State. To me, the Gators' only issue is at point guard, but they have a lot of depth down low.

[JasonEvans]

Pretty cool we'll be playing #s 2 and 3 early on. That should really tell us where we stand - I almost wonder if it'd be better to lose one of them so we don't get too cocky.

Ummm, be careful what you wish for.

Coach K has said (I think) that he never wants to lose a game and he does not believe in the lessons that come from a loss. I tend to agree. I want and expect Duke to go undefeated this season... as I do every year.

--Jason "I may be wrong and K says you can learn from a loss-- that would be kinda funny ;) " Evans

[Acymetric]

Ummm, be careful what you wish for.

Coach K has said (I think) that he never wants to lose a game and he does not believe in the lessons that come from a loss. I tend to agree. I want and expect Duke to go undefeated this season... as I do every year.

--Jason "I may be wrong and K says you can learn from a loss-- that would be kinda funny ;) " Evans

I recall him saying something to the effect that you can learn things from a loss, but that he would rather learn things from a win. Or maybe I dreamed that...anyone else remember this?

[BD80]

Ummm, be careful what you wish for.

Coach K has said (I think) that he never wants to lose a game and he does not believe in the lessons that come from a loss. I tend to agree. I want and expect Duke to go undefeated this season... as I do every year.

--Jason "I may be wrong and K says you can learn from a loss-- that would be kinda funny ;) " Evans

I would guess that Coach K will say that all that can be learned from a loss that can't be learned from a win would be a few new vocabulaty words during Coach K's post-game discussion with the team.

[Greg_Newton]

Ummm, be careful what you wish for.

Coach K has said (I think) that he never wants to lose a game and he does not believe in the lessons that come from a loss. I tend to agree. I want and expect Duke to go undefeated this season... as I do every year.

--Jason "I may be wrong and K says you can learn from a loss-- that would be kinda funny ;) " Evans

Well, Nolan specifically said something to that effect earlier this summer, so at least I've got him on my side!;)

I'll obviously be pulling like crazy for Duke to win, but there's only so much you can do to keep from getting a little complacent. Think about it - you're the defending champs, and you dispatch your only two major contenders early in the season - there's no way that doesn't creep into your 19 year-old head just a little bit, I don't care who's yelling in your ear.

However, that might not be all bad. We lost a little swagger between 2005-2009, it might not hurt to get a little cocky again.

[houstondukie]

One of the main reasons I am so optimistic about Duke's chances of repeating as national champions this year is my perception that across the country many programs are having "down" or rebuilding" years.

#5 Ohio State: lost the NPOY Evan Turner, who was their point forward, and even though Jared Sullinger will be great, they still have no PG and their entire bench is Freshman.
#7 Kansas: very average team if Selby is ineligible.
#8 Purdue: was suppose to be one of the few teams to challenge Duke, but the loss of Hummel ends that. Not sure why they are ranked this high.
#9 UNC: Barnes and Bullock will be great but people are underestimating the players they lost (Ginyard, Davis, Thompson, Graves).
#10 Kentucky: similar to Kansas/Selby, UK will be good but not great without Enes Kanter

Even teams like #2 Michigan State and #3 Kansas St. have question marks. How will Kalin Lucas bounce back after his injury? Who will replace Denis Clemente in the backcourt for K-State?

Duke has question marks as well, but they are not as big as these other teams. I also have a lot of faith in Coach K to answer those questions.

[SilkyJ]

Ummm, be careful what you wish for.

Coach K has said (I think) that he never wants to lose a game and he does not believe in the lessons that come from a loss. I tend to agree. I want and expect Duke to go undefeated this season... as I do every year.

--Jason "I may be wrong and K says you can learn from a loss-- that would be kinda funny ;) " Evans

I think you're thinking of coach K saying he doesn't believe in moral victories. There are things to be learned from every game, win or lose, and obviously he wants to win all of them.

[Jderf]

There's only so much you can do to keep from getting a little complacent. Think about it - you're the defending champs, and you dispatch your only two major contenders early in the season - there's no way that doesn't creep into your 19 year-old head just a little bit, I don't care who's yelling in your ear.

However, that might not be all bad. We lost a little swagger between 2005-2009, it might not hurt to get a little cocky again.

If things play out as you suggest, I have a feeling the lesson of '99 will need to be paraded around incessantly.

[Duvall]

If things play out as you suggest, I have a feeling the lesson of '99 will need to be paraded around incessantly.

"Don't assume that the refs will call fouls as fouls in a national championship game"?

[sagegrouse]

Ummm, be careful what you wish for.

Coach K has said (I think) that he never wants to lose a game and he does not believe in the lessons that come from a loss. I tend to agree. I want and expect Duke to go undefeated this season... as I do every year.

--Jason "I may be wrong and K says you can learn from a loss-- that would be kinda funny ;) " Evans

Let me paraphrase Big John Thompson on DC radio: "A loss is good for a team? What are these people talking about? A coach is trying to put the best team on the floor at all times and to call the best play or defense each time up and down the court. That's not just trying to win the game; that's trying to win every possession. I can't imagine not trying to win a game."

Just because a coach tries to draw lessons from a loss doesn't mean he isn't doing his darnedest to win every single game. And I believe K thinks you can learn from winning just as well.

sagegrouse
'It is apparently true that the French military commander (Joffre?) told his British counterpart (Haig?), who offered British Army support at the onset of World War I: "Give me one English soldier, and I will see that he is killed." That would have been to enflame English public opinion in support of a was against Germany. That ain't college hoops.'

[Olympic Fan]

Just a few comments:

-- Using the coaches' voting as a guide, it's worth noting that Duke will play 13 games against top 50 opponents this season: No. 2 Michigan State; No. 3 Kansas State (or No. 12 Gonzaga); No. 9 UNC, No. 9 UNC (we play them twice); No. 18 Butler; No. 22 Temple; No. 23 Va tech.

That's seven games against the top 25 (whether we get K-State or Gonzaga). In addition, we get No. 30 Florida State; No. 35 NC State; No. 35 NC State, and three games against teams tied at No. 46 (Marquette, Maryland and Maryland).

Obviously, those rankings will change before we play them ... still it's a reasonable guide to strength of schedule. Of those 13 games, we get five at home (MSU, UNC, Temple, NC State, Maryland); five on the road (UNC, Va Tech, FSU, NC State and Maryland); and three in neutral arenas: K-State/Gonzaga, Butler and Marquette. I would suggest if we face K-State in Kansas City, it will be a very hostile "neutral" court.

-- I don't have any problem with UNC at No. 9 -- I think that's a reasonable place to put them and interesting that most of the national pollsters have them in that range (I think Vitale has them at No. 10 and Blue Ribbon has them at No. 11). Don't fool yourself, they are going to be good ... not Duke good, but I'll be shocked if they don't finish ahead of Va Tech in the polls. I keep asking, who has Va Tech beaten (0-3 against the top ACC teams last yearm, 1-5 against NCAA teams ... they are a product of their schedulel; UNC might have collapsed in January-February, but remember they were good enough before the injuries/dissention/panic to beat Michigan State and Ohio State and take Kentucky to the wire in Lexington).

-- I also think No. 8 is reasonable for a Purdue team that won't have Hummel. Remember, they didn't have him for the NCAA Tournament last year and still make the Sweet 16 (and gave us a tough game). I know they also lose Grant and Kramer, but those were supporting players (although I agree Kramer was a key defender). They still have two studs in Moore and Johnson and a bunch of talented young players to full supporting roles. I might have had them a couple of places lower, but not much. BTW, Ken Pomoroy has a great blog entry about why Andy Katz over-reacted to Hummel's injury by dropping them from No. 2 to No. 23.

-- I don't understand the skepticism about Florida's ranking. They won 21 games a year ago with a freshman and a first-year starting soph in the backcourt. They have three seniors returning up front, but the key is a soph (Eric Murphy) and a freshman (Patric Young, who is a beast). Maybe a little thin in the backcourt, but definitely a team on the rise ... and it's not like they picked them third. The SEC coaches voted them the SEC East favorites ... a pretty routine projection.

-- Obviously, Kentucky and Baylor's rankings depend on whether they get Kantor and Dunn back respectively. Just a prediction -- Kanter will miss some games, but not the season ... Dunn won't miss a minute of playing time.

-- Georgetown will do fine without Monroe. They weren't a one-man team anyway. He's their only loss. Wright and Freeman are a great backcourt. Hollis Thompson should be a lot better as a soph. Julian Vaughn us servicable. Freshman Nate Lubick is going to be a stud. Againt, nobody's picking them top 5, but they probably belong where they are.

[Greg_Newton]

-- I don't understand the skepticism about Florida's ranking. They won 21 games a year ago with a freshman and a first-year starting soph in the backcourt. They have three seniors returning up front, but the key is a soph (Eric Murphy) and a freshman (Patric Young, who is a beast). Maybe a little thin in the backcourt, but definitely a team on the rise ... and it's not like they picked them third. The SEC coaches voted them the SEC East favorites ... a pretty routine projection.

I think they're top 25 good, I just don't think they're preseason #11. Consider:

Team A: Returning 5 starters from a 25-9 team, including 10-6 ACC.
Team B: Returning 5 starters from a 21-13 team, including 9-7 SEC.

Sure, some of the record disparity was VT's schedule, but on the other hand UF lost to Richmond and South Alabama, and was only 3 buzzer beaters saved them from dropping their NCSU, Alabama and USC games.

If Pat Young is polished enough to be a major difference maker right away, then I think top 10 might be warranted, but I'd have to put them more in VT's range preseason.

[Buckeye Devil]

It's great to see Duke at the top and they probably deserve it but I still think it will be hard to replace the consistency and leadership of Scheyer, the intangibles of Thomas, and the timely contributions of Zoubek. I agree that Purdue is ranked too high with the loss of Hummel. Maybe in the 18-20 range but not #9. I also think that Ohio State is ranked too high even though the recruiting class was probably the best in the country. They are thin up front and a lot of faith is being placed in Jared Sullinger being able to come right in and dominate. I don't see him as a "one and done" player but may be wrong on that. Plus, there does not seem to be a firm handle on how the point guard situation will be handled.

[Olympic Fan]

I also think that Ohio State is ranked too high even though the recruiting class was probably the best in the country. They are thin up front and a lot of faith is being placed in Jared Sullinger being able to come right in and dominate. I don't see him as a "one and done" player but may be wrong on that. Plus, there does not seem to be a firm handle on how the point guard situation will be handled.

But couldn't a Duke critic make the same complaint about the Devils. Yeah, OSU is counting on Sullinger (and UNC on Barnes, Florida on Young, etc.) but isn't Duke counting on Irving to be a great player right away?

Now, I'm confident that Kyrie will be a stud from day one, but I'm also confident that Sullinger, Barnes and Young will be difference makers. That's the college game ... you've got to count on kids to play key roles. Experience is great, but talent is pretty vital too.

The pollsters -- in this case the coaches -- have a pretty good idea about which kids are for real.n That doesn't mean they can't be wrong, but they are starting with a pretty good knowledge of the talent across the country.

(Just a note: the preseason poll is the one that the head coaches really vote on ... during the season, half of the coaches votes come from SIDs or administrative assistants. The coaches are usually too busy with their own teams to watch games -- other than tapes of their upcoming competitors)

Can I suggest that the one pick that surprised me was Kansas State at No. 3. I like them, but not that much.

Will they be better than the team that finished No. 7 last year? They lost three starters, including Clemente (their No. 2 scorer), Sutton (their best defender) and Colon (their starting center). The only impact freshman (Nino Williams) is a good, but not great prospect -- and he's slated to play Pullen's position anyway. A lot of people expect Kelly and Samuels to upgrade their offensive games, but noth benefited from Colon's large presence (he was kind of a poor man's Zoubek -- no offensive game at all, but a big body and big screener).

Maybe Freddie Asprilla, a big transfer from FIU can fill that void, but mainly KSU expects to get better by promoting last year's reserves -- Irving, McGruder and Judge. Well, guys do get better -- and Judge, especially, has a lot of room from growth, still to pick them at No. 3 in the poll? I don't see it. Pullen is a great player -- and NPOY candidate -- and Kelly and Samuels are solid up front, but this team has a LOT of questions to answer. Irving, projected as the starting PG, showed NOTHING last year. I like them, but more in the 8-12 range than 1-3.

Of course, whenever you want to drop a team -- as I do with K-State and some of you do with Florida, Purdue, UNC, etc. --you've got to move somebody else up. Any many times, the teams we want to move up have many of the same flaws as the team's we're trying to drop.

I guess my point is that it's a pretty wide open year. I think Duke and Michigan State are emerging as a consensus 1-2. Purdue was in that mix before Hummel got hurt. Now 3-25 and beyond (heck, I like No. 35 NC State) are pretty wide open. You rank them depending on how confident you are in the likes of Sullinger, Barnes, Wally Judge, Enes Kanter, Josh Shelby, LaceDarius Dunn or Ryan Harrow.

Even Duke -- with a freshman at the point -- and Michigan State -- with Lucas trying to bounce back from a ruptured achilles -- have their question marks. Just not nearly as many as everybody else.

[PADukeMom]

I just bought my copy of USA Today College Basketball Edition ;););)
Can't wait for lunch to read it.

[RepoMan]

I don't know about anyone else, but I am anxiously awaiting an initial Phase report!

[JasonEvans]

But couldn't a Duke critic make the same complaint about the Devils. Yeah, OSU is counting on Sullinger (and UNC on Barnes, Florida on Young, etc.) but isn't Duke counting on Irving to be a great player right away?

Question-- Would Duke minus Irving still be the preseason #1? Smith, Curry, Singler, MP1, MP 2 with Dawkins, Thornton, Kelly, and Hairston off the bench. Smith and Curry have both played some PG in the past. Still sounds like the #1 team in the land to me.

-Jason "that said, I am thrilled to have mega-stud Kyrie on board!" Evans

[DukeDevilDeb]

Ummm, be careful what you wish for.

Coach K has said (I think) that he never wants to lose a game and he does not believe in the lessons that come from a loss. I tend to agree. I want and expect Duke to go undefeated this season... as I do every year.

--Jason "I may be wrong and K says you can learn from a loss-- that would be kinda funny ;) " Evans

Can't remember the year, can't remember the opponent, but it was long ago. We played a horrible game of basketball and got thoroughly smashed. When the team stopped to eat at a restaurant on the way home, someone said, "Here's to forgetting tonight." Coach K responded "Here's to NEVER forgetting tonight."

I am pretty sure he believes that huge lessons can be learned from losses.

[NSDukeFan]

Can't remember the year, can't remember the opponent, but it was long ago. We played a horrible game of basketball and got thoroughly smashed. When the team stopped to eat at a restaurant on the way home, someone said, "Here's to forgetting tonight." Coach K responded "Here's to NEVER forgetting tonight."

I am pretty sure he believes that huge lessons can be learned from losses.

I think you are referring to a loss in the ACC tournament to Virginia with Ralph Sampson or just after he left around 1984 or so. I agree that Coach K certainly can use losses as lessons and they can serve as a wake-up call, but am pretty sure he would prefer to use lessons from victories, if possible.

[Buckeye Devil]

I think that the point was kind of insinuated with the comment about being able to replace the contributions of Scheyer, Zoubek, and Thomas. Duke probably has more talent this year than last year, but talent does not always translate into championships. Just ask a team that I hate about its experience last year: Kentucky. Now I don't think that Duke is another UK if for no other reason than K is better than Calipari.


But couldn't a Duke critic make the same complaint about the Devils. Yeah, OSU is counting on Sullinger (and UNC on Barnes, Florida on Young, etc.) but isn't Duke counting on Irving to be a great player right away?

Now, I'm confident that Kyrie will be a stud from day one, but I'm also confident that Sullinger, Barnes and Young will be difference makers. That's the college game ... you've got to count on kids to play key roles. Experience is great, but talent is pretty vital too.

[jimsumner]

Can't remember the year, can't remember the opponent, but it was long ago. We played a horrible game of basketball and got thoroughly smashed. When the team stopped to eat at a restaurant on the way home, someone said, "Here's to forgetting tonight." Coach K responded "Here's to NEVER forgetting tonight."

I am pretty sure he believes that huge lessons can be learned from losses.

It was after the 1983 ACC Tournament, when Virginia edged Duke 109-66. A Duke staffer made the toast "Here's to forgetting tonight." Krzyzewski responded, "No, here's to never forgetting tonight."

A great story and one that I've repeated often. But I rather suspect K would prefer not to have anymore 43-point-loss-teachable moments.

My question is simple. If losses are so good for you, why don't more coaches lose on purpose?

[Olympic Fan]

It was after the 1983 ACC Tournament, when Virginia edged Duke 109-66. A Duke staffer made the toast "Here's to forgetting tonight." Krzyzewski responded, "No, here's to never forgetting tonight."

A great story and one that I've repeated often. But I rather suspect K would prefer not to have anymore 43-point-loss-teachable moments.

My question is simple. If losses are so good for you, why don't more coaches lose on purpose?

When Duke opened practice for the next season on Oct. 15, 1983, the 109-66 score was on the scoreboard. I'm not sure K used the loss as a teaching moment, but he clearly used it as motivation ... and for the record, Duke followed the tourney loss to Virginia with 16 straight victories over the Cavs -- at a time when UVa was solid year in and year out (in fact, the streak started with two wins over a Virginia team that would play in the 1984 Final Four).

I agree with Jim's comments about how if a loss was good, coaches would lose intentionally. A loss is NEVER good -- but a good coach will try and use any lost the best he can, whether for teaching or motivation.

And speaking of "good" losses ... I'm not predicting an undefeated season or anything like it, but it would be interesting to see if Duke avoids a loss for a long time this season to see how long it takes for commentators to start suggesting that it would be better for them going into the NCAA Tournament if they were to lose one or two ... Every team that gets close to a perfect season and it's the same thing ... I hate that suggestion.

I know that 1991 UNLV is often cited as an example, but I think their problem was not that they had not lost, but that they had not been in any close games.

I do want some close ganes ... I want to win close games -- that gives you a confidence that pays off when you are in that situation again. I don't ever want to lose -- not for the sake of losing.

[Waynne]

I agree with Jim's comments about how if a loss was good, coaches would lose intentionally. A loss is NEVER good -- but a good coach will try and use any lost the best he can, whether for teaching or motivation.




Perhaps the only time a loss could be "good" or at least helpful would be late in the regular season when an undefeated team is feeling the pressure of going undefeated. Then a loss might relieve the pressure of being undefeated and re-focus the players on playing to win rather than playing not to lose. I'm not suggesting that anything like this might happen to our team this year, just speculating about when (if ever) a loss could be beneficial.

[jipops]

I do want some close ganes ... I want to win close games -- that gives you a confidence that pays off when you are in that situation again. I don't ever want to lose -- not for the sake of losing.

With the likes of Marquette, K State/Gonzaga, Mich St, Butler, and Temple looming along with the usual ACC slate it is a given that Duke will face more than a few close games. I think our schedule is excellent in preparation of going in to the pressure of March.

[DukieInBrasil]

Question-- Would Duke minus Irving still be the preseason #1? Smith, Curry, Singler, MP1, MP 2 with Dawkins, Thornton, Kelly, and Hairston off the bench. Smith and Curry have both played some PG in the past. Still sounds like the #1 team in the land to me.

-Jason "that said, I am thrilled to have mega-stud Kyrie on board!" Evans
I'd say they would not be ranked #1 w/o Irving, or even if Irving was replaced with another PG along the skill level of TT. That doesn't mean that I think that you're wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the media is fixated on Kyrie to fuel Duke's O.

[Wander]

In regards to UNC: losing players that suck isn't always a bad thing (not including the injured Davis in that group).

I'm going to side with the national media over the ACC media in regards to UNC/Va Tech. VT is being overrated.

[Duvall]

In regards to UNC: losing players that suck isn't always a bad thing (not including the injured Davis in that group).

I'm going to side with the national media over the ACC media in regards to UNC/Va Tech. VT is being overrated.

If the majority of your scoring and rebounding was coming from players that sucked, what does that say about the guys that are left?

[johnb]

Aside from humility and weaknesses, losinig can put a smackdown on a team's spirit (see Alabama football game, which, in retrospect, seems to have been a huge mistake for our team) but can also teach how to lose the close ones. Practice, as they say, makes permanent...

[sagegrouse]

WRT early season rankings, I would give the nod to teams with a good record last year and a lot of returning players. In a sense, they are more proven and worthy of a ranking. UNC had an awful season, barely redeemed by a run in the NIT. So, what were they, 50th or so? VT returns its entire team from one that was 10-6 in the conference. Will it be better than UNC this year? Maybe not, but it's unfair to give the edge to UNC when that team hasn't taken the court, and last year's team was mediocre.

sagegrouse

[Kedsy]

WRT early season rankings, I would give the nod to teams with a good record last year and a lot of returning players. In a sense, they are more proven and worthy of a ranking. UNC had an awful season, barely redeemed by a run in the NIT. So, what were they, 50th or so? VT returns its entire team from one that was 10-6 in the conference. Will it be better than UNC this year? Maybe not, but it's unfair to give the edge to UNC when that team hasn't taken the court, and last year's team was mediocre.

sagegrouse

Well, are these rankings supposed to be about fairness, or about who will be good? If you add the best freshman in the country plus a couple other highly regarded freshmen, why should you be discounted because you weren't any good the previous year? Did Kentucky not deserve a high ranking in 2009-10 just because they stunk the year before?

[sagegrouse]

Well, are these rankings supposed to be about fairness, or about who will be good? If you add the best freshman in the country plus a couple other highly regarded freshmen, why should you be discounted because you weren't any good the previous year? Did Kentucky not deserve a high ranking in 2009-10 just because they stunk the year before?

Actually, both. I would tend to tilt towards teams who had proven they were good and let the teams that look to have great potential prove it with some wins. That way, they get to earn their ranking.

UNC the last two years presents the opposite ends of the uncertainty spectrum. Last year UNC was ranked 4-5 preseason even though it had lost its top four players plus others. Nutso, and unfair, I say. I know some were giving it credit for being NC in 2009. Of course, the high ranking messed with the heads of the players and coaches, and so it helped the opponents. :p

This year, a poor team (for UNC) is bolstered by some real talent. I would vote it 20-25 and let it prove it's better. Seems fair to me.

sagegrouse

[flyingdutchdevil]

Well, are these rankings supposed to be about fairness, or about who will be good? If you add the best freshman in the country plus a couple other highly regarded freshmen, why should you be discounted because you weren't any good the previous year? Did Kentucky not deserve a high ranking in 2009-10 just because they stunk the year before?

Agreed. If we had an average freshman PG, would we still be #1? If that was the case, you can easily make the case that Mich St should be #1. These rankings are meaningless and will only be fruitful once league play starts (and even then...)

That said, and this doesn't have to do with your post, I think it's amazing that everyone is so high on Kyrie and yet so down on HB. I know he's the enemy and the rival, but he is a sick talent. I've heard that HB is better than advertised, which I find unbelievable. I don't like him at all, but he is supposed to be Melo/Durant-esque. I can't wait to beat him.

[MChambers]

That said, and this doesn't have to do with your post, I think it's amazing that everyone is so high on Kyrie and yet so down on HB.
Who's down on HB as a player? I think most folks here have acknowledged (grudgingly) that he'll be very, very good. To the extent there have been criticisms, they have not been about his basketball ability.

[CLT Devil]

What does everyone here think of the two types of polls, and which one holds more weight?

On one hand there is the coaches poll, where in the pre-season coaches likely have some time to devote to observing teams and ranking them with an informed vote. One would think that the coaches obviously know more about the game, teams, etc so their poll should be taken more seriously than others.

On the other hand the press votes on teams, and I think that this poll might hold more weight when the season is underway. These folks are afforded the opportunity to watch as many games as they want, with many voters being able to see the teams they vote for in person more than once or twice. I feel like once the season starts the coaches get tunnel vision (which is how it should be) in focusing on their own team and might not follow the national scene quite as much as a writer or sportscaster might.

One poll has the 'professionals' in coaches whose job it is to know basketball and evaluate a team's strength. The other has a group who likely does not know a small group, ie the ACC, as well as a coach in that conference but does know more about the entire NCAA. Who do you give more creedence to? I say the coach's poll pre-season and the media during the year largely because they can look at teams through a much larger scope.

On another note; I have no problem with UNC being top-ten pre-season. They have a very talented starting lineup and some new blood coming in that could bolster their main weakness last year, which was being able to put points on the board. I think a lot of credit is being given to 'Ole Roy to mold the talent he has into a team...a task he failed at last year. It will be interesting to see what happens when they face their first test of adversity - either an injury, consecutive losses, changing up the lineup or playing time...

All that being said I think VT should be a better team than UNC based on their team last year and who is coming back. Delaney is a very good player, better than anyone UNC has on their team, with the jury being out on Barnes until he has a chance to prove himself against ACC-type opponents.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Who's down on HB as a player? I think most folks here have acknowledged (grudgingly) that he'll be very, very good. To the extent there have been criticisms, they have not been about his basketball ability.

While there is an incredible amount of critic on HB as a person, there also exists some critic here as a player. I think HB will be the most talented player in the ACC this year. That's not to say he would be the most valuable (I'd rather have Singler and Smith, IMO), but his upside is significantly higher than Singler. Many believe that it would be preposterous if HB had better numbers that Singler. With UNC down in the dumps, HB will shine ultra bright (Beasley-style). In all honesty, I wouldn't be surprised if he beat Singler for ACC-POY

[Duvall]

Agreed. If we had an average freshman PG, would we still be #1?

Probably.


That said, and this doesn't have to do with your post, I think it's amazing that everyone is so high on Kyrie and yet so down on HB. I know he's the enemy and the rival, but he is a sick talent. I've heard that HB is better than advertised, which I find unbelievable. I don't like him at all, but he is supposed to be Melo/Durant-esque. I can't wait to beat him.

Who is down on Barnes? I think the people who are down on UNC's chances are more skeptical about the potential of UNC's returnees - Drew, Henson, and to a lesser extent Zeller - the guys we saw fail last year. Everyone expects Barnes to be good.

And while it's clear that Barnes is a real talent, I think we can wait until the actual season before putting him in Carmelo/Durant territory. Would be nice to see him against better competition than Iowa high school basketball can offer.

[flyingdutchdevil]

And while it's clear that Barnes is a real talent, I think we can wait until the actual season before putting him in Carmelo/Durant territory. Would be nice to see him against better competition than Iowa high school basketball can offer.

Many are taking a "wait-and-see" approach with HB while firmly believing that KI will be a junior-year JWill.

That said, I'd probably be even more surprised if KI wasn't treated as well on this board and HB the complete opposite.

[Duvall]

Many believe that it would be preposterous if HB had better numbers that Singler. With UNC down in the dumps, HB will shine ultra bright (Beasley-style). In all honesty, I wouldn't be surprised if he beat Singler for ACC-POY

Given that we're talking about the voters that picked Ademola Okulaja over Will Avery for All-ACC in 1999, I'm not sure that would be saying all that much.

Barnes may score more than Singler, especially if his teammates have another disappointing season. But I'll be very surprised if he has a better season.

[Duvall]

Many are taking a "wait-and-see" approach with HB while firmly believing that KI will be a junior-year JWill.

I'm not sure that's the case, but I'm perfectly happy to suggest taking a wait-and-see attitude with Irving as well.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Barnes may score more than Singler, especially if his teammates have another disappointing season. But I'll be very surprised if he has a better season.

While I suspect that Singler will have a better season (3 years > 0 years), Barnes is a rare gem (painful to say). Barnes could put up 20,8,6,2,2, or even better. Journos love to exaggerate, but a few have characterized HB as the following:

Grant Hill's well-roundedness + Hansbrough's intensity + Durant's jumpshot + Battier's IQ

Is this the biggest exaggeration possible? Absolutely. But the fact that he is compared these guys is downright scary.

[BD80]

... With UNC down in the dumps, HB will shine ultra bright (Beasley-style). In all honesty, I wouldn't be surprised if he beat Singler for ACC-POY

First half of the season should go smoothly for unc, with losses only to the couple of top 25 teams they play.

As the conference schedule heats up, HB will carry more and more of the load, until he is the sole option and the rest of the team is afraid to take a shot in the last 5 minutes. ol' roy will be riding HB hard, knowing it will be the only year he gets from him.

I envision a late-season caricature of the entire team riding on HB's back and ol' roy perched up on top with the reins in one hand and a whip in the other, bucking up and down like a five-year-old on a one-penny horsey ride.

[Duvall]

While I suspect that Singler will have a better season (3 years > 0 years), Barnes is a rare gem (painful to say). Barnes could put up 20,8,6,2,2, or even better. Journos love to exaggerate, but a few have characterized HB as the following:

Grant Hill's well-roundedness + Hansbrough's intensity + Durant's jumpshot + Battier's IQ

Is this the biggest exaggeration possible? Absolutely. But the fact that he is compared these guys is downright scary.

Only if you take preseason puffery at all seriously. We shall see.

And there's no chance Barnes will average six assists for the season. I doubt he ever gets six assists in a game. The guy likes to shoot, and UNC needs him to shoot.

[CEF1959]

I hate to trot out a tired cliche, but one great player does not a team make. He needs some help if he's not going to be doubled to death. And no matter what numbers he puts up, he (and the rest of the team) still have to stop opponents from scoring. Pete Maravich averaged 40+ ppg, and LSU never even won its conference while he was there.

So the question for UNC is not whether HB will be good (he will), but rather whether the other players will step up when opponents focus their defense on HB. They've got some talent, so I'm sure some teams that focus too much on HB will bet lit up by whoever is left unguarded.

As for us, we should win every game, but we undoubtedly won't. Remember losing to unranked NC State last year in Raleigh? Never shoulda happened, but it did. Where might we stumble, and how? Hard to predict. There are assistant coaches out there right now reviewing tape of the St. Augustine game plotting ways to beat us. But I still see us losing few enough games to be a #1 seed when it matters. Just too many weapons.

[Wander]

UNC had an awful season, barely redeemed by a run in the NIT. So, what were they, 50th or so? VT returns its entire team from one that was 10-6 in the conference. Will it be better than UNC this year? Maybe not, but it's unfair to give the edge to UNC when that team hasn't taken the court, and last year's team was mediocre.


Virginia Tech missed the NCAA tournament last year, split with Carolina, and didn't make it as far as UNC did in the postseason. I loved watching UNC suffer last year, but Virginia Tech wasn't any good either. As Olympic Fan pointed out earlier, they haven't proven anything. They're quickly becoming my pick for most overrated team in the country.

I think UNC will be better than Virginia Tech. But that doesn't mean I think UNC will be the 2nd best team in the ACC, necessarily. I'd definitely pick FSU if they had a better coach, and I might pick them anyway. And I like Clemson and Miami as sleepers.

[Lord Ash]

Many are taking a "wait-and-see" approach with HB while firmly believing that KI will be a junior-year JWill.


I haven't seen anyone say this. What people DO say is they question whether or not Harrison Barnes can take UNC to a top ten spot with the guys he has around him. Personally, I think he can, but I haven't seen ANYONE question that Barnes is awful, awful good.

[Class of '94]

While I suspect that Singler will have a better season (3 years > 0 years), Barnes is a rare gem (painful to say). Barnes could put up 20,8,6,2,2, or even better. Journos love to exaggerate, but a few have characterized HB as the following:

Grant Hill's well-roundedness + Hansbrough's intensity + Durant's jumpshot + Battier's IQ

Is this the biggest exaggeration possible? Absolutely. But the fact that he is compared these guys is downright scary.

Wasn't Harold Miner out of USC supposed to be a baby "Jordan" or Vince Carter considered the next Jordan?? How well did those comparisons turn out to be?? I'm not saying HB will be a bad player....I think he will be good this season; but to say that Barnes is a combination of the best traits of those 4 players at this point is just plain ridiculous. And who made this comparison?? Like I mentioned back in the summer, it's an awful lot to put on a freshman (no matter how good he is) to carry a team without help; but I honestly look forward to seeing how well he plays this season, especially when UNC plays in the Big 10-ACC Challenge as well as top teams like Kentucky and the ACC teams.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Wasn't Harold Miner out of USC supposed to be a baby "Jordan" or Vince Carter considered the next Jordan?? How well did those comparisons turn out to be?? I'm not saying HB will be a bad player....I think he will be good this season; but to say that Barnes is a combination of the best traits of those 4 players at this point is just plain ridiculous. And who made this comparison?? Like I mentioned back in the summer, it's an awful lot to put on a freshman (no matter how good he is) to carry a team without help; but I honestly look forward to seeing how well he plays this season, especially when UNC plays in the Big 10-ACC Challenge as well as top teams like Kentucky and the ACC teams.

Here's a sample:
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/harrison-barnes
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/12844/harrison-barnes-is-in-the-building
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/14149830/preseason-allamericans-not-too-early-to-anoint-heels-barnes

And that's the first 3 sites that came to mind. There is the possibility that HB could not be as good, just as there is the possibility that KI turns into the next Paulus. But you really think that about HB? Or you're hoping that happens?

Personally, I think HB, surrounded by decent talent, will catapult UNC to #2 in the ACC and a top-15 ranking by years end. I rarely think a player will be a sure thing (I thought Beasley was going to be a bust at Kansas. I was very wrong), but I've never seen press about a freshman as I have with Barnes.

[PADukeMom]

Pretty cool we'll be playing #s 2 and 3 early on. That should really tell us where we stand - I almost wonder if it'd be better to lose one of them so we don't get too cocky.

.



Okay I may be a blonde but who on Earth wants to ever lose a game?

I worry alot more about a loss to a #2 or #3 in March alot more than I do in November but I do see your point.