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JasonEvans
10-14-2010, 09:04 AM
I know there have been comments about this in the Quincy Miller recruiting thread (because Miller has listed Baylor as one of his final 3 schools -- along with Duke and Louisville), but I think it deserves its own thread.

DBR has made mention of the deportation recruiting threat, but the NY Times has now jumped into the story (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/14/sports/ncaabasketball/14baylor.html) and has a few more details, including the fact that Scott Drew is talking to a lawyer known for advising coaches who are in trouble with the NCAA.

My question is why would a Baylor assistant resort to threats when recruiting a kid? How can he think that is a good way to win the confidence of the recruit or the recruit's high school coach? It really strikes me as dumb.

Anyway, I am sure there will be more developments in this story over the next few weeks. Now we have a thread in which we can discuss them (for folks who have not read all 50+ pages of the QMiller thread).

-Jason "I supposed we could put news on Lacederius Dunn's legal problems here too -- this can be the Bad News About Baylor discussion thread" Evans

JasonEvans
10-14-2010, 09:23 AM
Wow-- as if on cue, the moment I start this thread we get new news about Dunn's situation. Baylor has cleared him to return to classes (http://cbs11tv.com/wireapsportstx/Baylor.s.Dunn.2.1962050.html) though not to return to the team... yet.

As many of you all will recall, I predicted that Dunn would get little more than a slap on the wrist from Baylor and that the school would make sure it had him on the floor for all but a couple games of the season. Fellow DBR poster, wacobluedevil dissented and predicted more harsh punishment for Dunn.

--Jason "We'll see, but little about Scott Drew tells me he has ethics as one of his core values in building the Baylor program" Evans

Devil07
10-14-2010, 09:45 AM
Wow-- as if on cue, the moment I start this thread we get new news about Dunn's situation. Baylor has cleared him to return to classes (http://cbs11tv.com/wireapsportstx/Baylor.s.Dunn.2.1962050.html) though not to return to the team... yet.

As many of you all will recall, I predicted that Dunn would get little more than a slap on the wrist from Baylor and that the school would make sure it had him on the floor for all but a couple games of the season. Fellow DBR poster, wacobluedevil dissented and predicted more harsh punishment for Dunn.

--Jason "We'll see, but little about Scott Drew tells me he has ethics as one of his core values in building the Baylor program" Evans

Not to turn this thread away from the recruiting investigation, but this does make you appreciate the way that Wake handled its business with Tony Woods. Of course Woods wasn't the team's best player and did have a criminal conviction, but it is nice to see a school not stand for that kind of behavior.

As far as the recruiting violation goes, I can't help but think that there's more than just the text messages if the NCAA is coming to campus. I was though pleased to see this quote from the high school coach in the NY Times article:


“My impression of the N.C.A.A. is that they’re making a very concentrated effort to understand the system better and employ people who actually understand what’s going on,” Huss said.

“My impression is that they have a pretty good handle of what’s going on, and they’re trying to clean it up,” Huss said of N.C.A.A. investigations of men’s basketball programs.

He added, “I was amazed at how well they seem to have a grasp at what’s going on.”

It really does seem like the NCAA is finally taking its head out of the sand, and I like the new aggressive stance they're taking. Now if only they can only do something about Calipari...

cbnaylor
10-14-2010, 09:51 AM
Statement from article :"Police say Dunn's girlfriend, Lacharlesla Edwards, had her jaw broken in two places Sept. 27. She says her jaw wasn't broken and Dunn didn't hit her. Edwards wants charges dropped and Dunn reinstated."

Wow, it looks like Dunn told her to say he didn't hit her or there might be more to come..........

JasonEvans
10-14-2010, 10:19 AM
Statement from article :"Police say Dunn's girlfriend, Lacharlesla Edwards, had her jaw broken in two places Sept. 27. She says her jaw wasn't broken and Dunn didn't hit her. Edwards wants charges dropped and Dunn reinstated."

Wow, it looks like Dunn told her to say he didn't hit her or there might be more to come..........

More like she realized that he is her gravy train and that if he is forced to miss a season because of this it will hurt his NBA stock.

-Jason "battered women frequently refuse to blame their men and cover up for them" Evans

Duvall
10-14-2010, 10:24 AM
More like she realized that he is her gravy train and that if he is forced to miss a season because of this it will hurt his NBA stock.

-Jason "battered women frequently refuse to blame their men and cover up for them" Evans

Of course, those are two separate explanations. We have no idea what Charles is thinking, but the latter situation is certainly tragically common enough to explain all of her actions.

tommy
10-14-2010, 12:47 PM
More like she realized that he is her gravy train and that if he is forced to miss a season because of this it will hurt his NBA stock.

-Jason "battered women frequently refuse to blame their men and cover up for them" Evans

You're right, and just like the probable reason for the victim in the Dunn case changing the entire story, in the routine DV case, where the parties are not public figures, the most common reason why the victim changes the story and backs off of it or refuses to testify at all, is rooted in the financial. Usually, they need their man out of jail and to get back to work to put food on the table.

However, it is not uncommon, in at least some jurisdictions, for the prosecution to move forward even without the cooperation of the victim, as when they have prior statements, medical records, statements to the treating doctor or nurses, 911 calls, etc. Who knows if that will happen here.

But it was so predictable that Baylor would try to whitewash the whole thing. Somehow, before the police and prosecutors have made a judgment, Baylor has. The Baylor University Judicial Affairs Disciplinary Committee has already found Dunn "not guilty of assaulting a female which resulted in her jaw being broken." I'm shocked, just shocked.

BD80
10-14-2010, 01:19 PM
... -Jason "I supposed we could put news on Lacederius Dunn's legal problems here too -- this can be the Bad News About Baylor discussion thread" Evans

Baylor Bears? Bad News Bears? Come'on Jason, leave the really bad ones to the rest of us.


... The Baylor University Judicial Affairs Disciplinary Committee has already found Dunn "not guilty of assaulting a female which resulted in her jaw being broken." I'm shocked, just shocked.

That is just sickening. I thought the lawyer admitted that Dunn punched her in the face. I read the victim required surgery for the injury. That isn't enough? Good God, can you believe Baylor has a law school?

http://www.baylor.edu/law/

A-Tex Devil
10-14-2010, 06:03 PM
Posted this in the Dunn thread, but this threat of deportation text is real. Plus the assistant has been texting all through July which is a pretty egregious violation considering the message the NCAA sends to coaching staffs about this dark period. That guy is gone and I am betting this is the type of NCAA investigation where they turn up one rock looking for one thing and find another.

If you think of Scott Drew as that nice Homer Drew's boy and Bryce Drew's brother, and that blessed soul that took over the crippled Baylor program and brought him to the elite 8, well, yeah, he's all that. But behind the scenes, he'll give Calipari, Tim Floyd, et al a run for their money in what hey'll do to get a recruit.

RoyalBlue08
10-14-2010, 06:17 PM
Two thoughts:

1.) How in the world can there be a dispute over whether someone had a broken jaw or not. Some things are just facts. It shouldn't take but one journalist to come up with a definitive answer. But I guess now all information comes from statements handed to the media and twitter....so there are no more facts.

2.) I don't know anything about Coach Drew, other than I was a fan of his dad. With that said, I am always skeptical when a new coach goes to a school that isn't a traditional power and starts pulling in top recruits, or at least appears on all the tops recruits lists. What could he be possibly be selling that is legitimate. It's one thing if a coach wins for awhile with mediocre recruits...say Pitt's Jamie Dixon. If he starts getting the McD's boys now, well I can see it. But if Drew is clean, what is with the sudden interest in Baylor over the past few seasons?

monkey
10-14-2010, 09:28 PM
But if Drew is clean, what is with the sudden interest in Baylor over the past few seasons?

Come on, that's not fair. There can be a million reasons why people get interested in a up and coming young coach and program - he doesn't have to be dirty. He can be charismatic. He can point to the pedigree. He can be aggressive at recruiting without crossing the line (Billy Donovan was accused of skirting this line earlier in the decade when he was up and coming and pulling in big classes). Sometimes just "new" can be exciting.

I might note that it was the assistant that wrote the disgusting text, not Drew himself. You can say the head coach should know what the assistant is doing, but that can't be true with respect to each and every text message.

77devil
10-15-2010, 06:44 AM
Come on, that's not fair. There can be a million reasons why people get interested in a up and coming young coach and program - he doesn't have to be dirty. He can be charismatic. He can point to the pedigree. He can be aggressive at recruiting without crossing the line (Billy Donovan was accused of skirting this line earlier in the decade when he was up and coming and pulling in big classes). Sometimes just "new" can be exciting.

I might note that it was the assistant that wrote the disgusting text, not Drew himself. You can say the head coach should know what the assistant is doing, but that can't be true with respect to each and every text message.

Maybe, but have you ever been to Waco?

We'll see when the NCAA completes the investigation, but I suspect there's a lot more to come. Drew is responsible for setting the tone at the top, and thus accountable, in large part, for the compliance behavior of his staff. Can you imagine a Duke assistant doing something similar? NFW

flyingdutchdevil
10-15-2010, 07:11 AM
2.) I don't know anything about Coach Drew, other than I was a fan of his dad. With that said, I am always skeptical when a new coach goes to a school that isn't a traditional power and starts pulling in top recruits, or at least appears on all the tops recruits lists. What could he be possibly be selling that is legitimate. It's one thing if a coach wins for awhile with mediocre recruits...say Pitt's Jamie Dixon. If he starts getting the McD's boys now, well I can see it. But if Drew is clean, what is with the sudden interest in Baylor over the past few seasons?

Were you skeptical of Coach K? Did you assume that he did something illegal to pull in Dawkins and co? Although rare, a new coach pulling in talent does happen. I think Scott Drew is a good guy. Plus, can you imagine what the AD told Drew when he gave him the job? I would assume that losing would be preferred to winning coupled with illegal recruiting (or anything else illegal). I really think Drew is legit and isn't involved in anything out of the ordinary. Maybe he is just a great recruiter.

Duvall
10-15-2010, 07:12 AM
I think Scott Drew is a good guy.

Why?

flyingdutchdevil
10-15-2010, 07:21 AM
Why?

He has been able to revive a program that no one wanted to touch with a 20-foot pole. That takes enormous cajones. And, to date, he has been pretty successful.

I like that the bball world has given Baylor a second chance. The only problem is, they look to be screwing it up. Hopefully, Drew can clean up shop.

Duvall
10-15-2010, 07:52 AM
He has been able to revive a program that no one wanted to touch with a 20-foot pole. That takes enormous cajones. And, to date, he has been pretty successful.

That could be a sign that Drew is a good coach, or a good recruiter. It says nothing about whether or not he is a good guy.


I like that the bball world has given Baylor a second chance. The only problem is, they look to be screwing it up. Hopefully, Drew can clean up shop.

It's his shop. Everyone there, staff and players, was brought in by Drew.

flyingdutchdevil
10-15-2010, 08:07 AM
That could be a sign that Drew is a good coach, or a good recruiter. It says nothing about whether or not he is a good guy.



It's his shop. Everyone there, staff and players, was brought in by Drew.

You really don't like Drew. That's fine. I think he's a decent coach and thus, a decent person. At DBR, we love to pass judgments on coaches / players / teams without ever getting all the facts. A little ironic considering the Lacrosse scandal...

Duvall
10-15-2010, 08:12 AM
You really don't like Drew. That's fine. I think he's a decent coach and thus, a decent person. At DBR, we love to pass judgments on coaches / players / teams without ever getting all the facts. A little ironic considering the Lacrosse scandal...

I don't dislike Drew. I just don't understand why some people seem to like him. There are only a few college basketball coaches that have earned the benefit of the doubt, and he isn't one of them.

Jderf
10-15-2010, 08:14 AM
You really don't like Drew. That's fine. I think he's a decent coach and thus a decent person. At DBR, we love to pass judgments on coaches / players / teams without ever getting all the facts. A little ironic considering the Lacrosse scandal...

I agree with your general point. I'd just be careful with that "thus" in there. I'd guess that there must be plenty of decent coaches are just terrible, terrible people.

flyingdutchdevil
10-15-2010, 08:17 AM
I agree with your general point. I'd just be careful with that "thus" in there. I'd guess that there must be plenty of decent coaches are just terrible, terrible people.

Agreed. Don't know why I put that thus there. Also, there are some terrible coaches who are fantastic people.

I'll give Drew the benefit of the doubt here and assume he's a good person.

NSDukeFan
10-15-2010, 08:43 AM
You really don't like Drew. That's fine. I think he's a decent coach and thus, a decent person. At DBR, we love to pass judgments on coaches / players / teams without ever getting all the facts. A little ironic considering the Lacrosse scandal...

A little ironic also that you are including yourself and all? members of this board as people who pass judgment about others. Isn't that what your statement just did?

flyingdutchdevil
10-15-2010, 10:35 AM
A little ironic also that you are including yourself and all? members of this board as people who pass judgment about others. Isn't that what your statement just did?

I'm completely guilty of passing judgment - no doubt about that.

However, attending Duke during the lacrosse scandal made me second guess about judging anyone when it comes to a sports scandal / issue. Duke was not a fun place to be during that time and watching athletes / students / teachers being overwhelmed with this issue was devastating.

That's why I always try to reserve the benefit of the doubt when it comes to situations like this.

tommy
10-15-2010, 03:25 PM
I think [Drew is] a decent coach and thus, a decent person.

And thus? Do you really mean that simply because a guy is a decent coach that such a fact automatically means he's a decent person? How does B necessarily follow from A? Every good coach is a good person? Really?

Mal
10-15-2010, 04:29 PM
Can someone give a little background on why Drew has a rep. among a number of you as sketchy? A-Tex, I'm looking your way in particular - you seem to imply that there's a conventional wisdom in Texas that there's some sliminess there. Does it come from something other than the speed with which he's taken Baylor from six feet under to the verge of a Final Four and a related smoke/fire correlation? I'm asking purely out of curiosity. I seem to remember coming away fairly impressed with his demeanor and behavior before and after our NCAA matchup with them, and don't remember hearing any of these reports of questionable ethics as a character trait then. So I'm wondering if I should reassess my initial impression and expectations for this investigation.

tommy, sorry to chastise, but please read the rest of the thread before commenting. fdd has already addressed that causal language slip up, a mere three posts above yours.

SilkyJ
10-15-2010, 04:36 PM
He has been able to revive a program that no one wanted to touch with a 20-foot pole. That takes enormous cajones. And, to date, he has been pretty successful.



You really don't like Drew. That's fine. I think he's a decent coach and thus, a decent person. At DBR, we love to pass judgments on coaches / players / teams without ever getting all the facts. A little ironic considering the Lacrosse scandal...



I'll give Drew the benefit of the doubt here and assume he's a good person.

We get that you think Drew is a good guy, but you haven't explained why. First you said b/c he came in to revive a down program, which takes balls. So having balls makes you a good guy?

Then you said he's been successful, so successful = good guy? have you not heard of Calipari or Calhoun?

Surely you must have some decent reason for giving the guy the benefit of the doubt?

pfrduke
10-15-2010, 04:44 PM
We get that you think Drew is a good guy, but you haven't explained why. First you said b/c he came in to revive a down program, which takes balls. So having balls makes you a good guy?

Then you said he's been successful, so successful = good guy? have you not heard of Calipari or Calhoun?

Surely you must have some decent reason for giving the guy the benefit of the doubt?

Well, (not to speak for fdd, but merely to make an observation) this is sort of an empirical question; that is, when assessing the bona fides of a college coach, should one operate from the assumption that he is a) "good" or b) "not good"? You (and I think others in this thread) appear to be choosing b), and asking for reasons why we shouldn't think he's not good (apologies for the double negative). As I read fdd's post, I gather his choice is a), and will assume good unless there is evidence (or maybe even just innuendo) to the contrary.

I haven't followed Drew's career or the recruiting press closely enough to know if there are reported stories about him being shady; basically, I know nothing about the man other than that he comes from a basketball family and coaches the Baylor Bears. But I choose to assume that he's "good" because I haven't heard anything to the contrary. I'd rather assume the best of people and be disappointed than assume the worst and be surprised.

SilkyJ
10-15-2010, 04:44 PM
Can someone give a little background on why Drew has a rep. among a number of you as sketchy? A-Tex, I'm looking your way in particular - you seem to imply that there's a conventional wisdom in Texas that there's some sliminess there. Does it come from something other than the speed with which he's taken Baylor from six feet under to the verge of a Final Four and a related smoke/fire correlation? I'm asking purely out of curiosity.

Yes, there is good reason. See this post from El Diablo in the Quincy Miller thread, which references a NYTimes article (http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/15/barnes-has-stern-words-for-baylor/) about how Drew has developed a slimy reputation in Big 12. So slimy that Bobby Knight had to "take him aside" if you will.


Drew is the guy who hired Dwon Clifton to a newly created position in an attempt to lure John Wall to Baylor. According to the NY Times, he also "has a reputation in college basketball circles for recruiting by talking negatively about other schools." Some examples are listed here:
-Printing flyers which crossed out pictures of Big 12 coaches who hadn't signed an All-American in two years
-Telling a Kansas recruit that Kansas had the lowest graduation rate in the Big 12 (which wasn't true).
-Creating a binder citing all the off-the-court problems at Memphis and giving it to a recruit who was considering Memphis

Now in my opinion, that's not the best way to run a program, but he's trying to get an edge. I won't hate him for it. But you add these things up (combined with the new stuff from his assistant and now word of this "broader" NCAA investigation) the sum of the parts may be worse than if you looked at them individually, so to speak.



tommy, sorry to chastise, but please read the rest of the thread before commenting. fdd has already addressed that causal language slip up, a mere three posts above yours.

Yea, well before he corrected that slip-up he was asked why he thought Drew was a good guy, and his response was "he had the cajones to step into Baylor in the wake of the scandal, and he's been successful." (See my above post) So seems to me he's grasping at straws...

SilkyJ
10-15-2010, 04:52 PM
Well, (not to speak for fdd, but merely to make an observation) this is sort of an empirical question; that is, when assessing the bona fides of a college coach, should one operate from the assumption that he is a) "good" or b) "not good"? You (and I think others in this thread) appear to be choosing b), and asking for reasons why we shouldn't think he's not good (apologies for the double negative). As I read fdd's post, I gather his choice is a), and will assume good unless there is evidence (or maybe even just innuendo) to the contrary.

I haven't followed Drew's career or the recruiting press closely enough to know if there are reported stories about him being shady; basically, I know nothing about the man other than that he comes from a basketball family and coaches the Baylor Bears. But I choose to assume that he's "good" because I haven't heard anything to the contrary. I'd rather assume the best of people and be disappointed than assume the worst and be surprised.


See my post above (right after you posted) and you'll see those groups don't really exist for me, b/c I have heard about his supposed "sliminess." He's no Calipari but he's definitely willing to cross some lines other coaches wouldn't.

Here's another ESPN piece (http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/ncb/columns/story?columnist=caplan_jeff&id=4979714) about Drew's poor reputation amongst fellow coaches. Its hardly "damning" evidence, but when combined with recent events, all of this added together is enough for me to not give him the benefit of the doubt. Not saying he's a cheater or a terrible guy, but I'm certainly not calling him a good guy.

I'll also say this, after K, I respect Coach Knight more than any other coach. If Drew drew (hehe) the ire of Knight, I put some weight on that fact.

pfrduke
10-15-2010, 05:35 PM
See my post above (right after you posted) and you'll see those groups don't really exist for me, b/c I have heard about his supposed "sliminess." He's no Calipari but he's definitely willing to cross some lines other coaches wouldn't.

Here's another ESPN piece (http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/ncb/columns/story?columnist=caplan_jeff&id=4979714) about Drew's poor reputation amongst fellow coaches. Its hardly "damning" evidence, but when combined with recent events, all of this added together is enough for me to not give him the benefit of the doubt. Not saying he's a cheater or a terrible guy, but I'm certainly not calling him a good guy.

I'll also say this, after K, I respect Coach Knight more than any other coach. If Drew drew (hehe) the ire of Knight, I put some weight on that fact.

Fair enough. Like I said, I haven't done the research necessary to form an opinion on the man. However, I do think there's a subtext in some of the questions above suggesting that it's surprising that anyone is inclined to assume he's a decent person or give him the benefit of the doubt, and I find that curious. It may simply stem from people being more familiar with his track record than others.

SilkyJ
10-15-2010, 05:58 PM
Fair enough. Like I said, I haven't done the research necessary to form an opinion on the man. However, I do think there's a subtext in some of the questions above suggesting that it's surprising that anyone is inclined to assume he's a decent person or give him the benefit of the doubt, and I find that curious. It may simply stem from people being more familiar with his track record than others.

I totally get what you're saying and realize you basically didn't/don't have any info on which to form an opinion. A completely reasonable stance (though hopefully you've read some of the links, El Diablo's post, etc. etc. and now can no longer claim ignorance, and I don't mean that in a condescending way, to be clear).

To that point, I think the people you're referring to (those surprised that anyone would assume Drew to be a good person) are surprised b/c they are not in the same boat as you. They have read these articles, are now hearing about more shady tactics, a broader NCAA investigation...and as they've added up the sum of the parts it clearly points towards the "not good" direction and there's nothing other than "he's Homer's son" to sway them in the "good" direction.

Prior to the ESPN article, I would have not opined on Drew's character other than to say he's got good genes, probably a good guy; i.e. he gets the benefit of the doubt.

Now we have several examples of shady behavior -- again, nothing damning or Calipari-esque by any means -- but its something that sways my opinion in one direction. I mean based on what we (and now you) have at our fingertips, what would lead you to give him the benefit of the doubt? I'm not saying burn him in effigy, but I believe where's there's smoke there's fire. Maybe its just a kitchen fire, but he's lost the benefit of the doubt in my mind.

JasonEvans
10-18-2010, 09:37 AM
Back on the subject at hand, I found this to be an interesting article on the Baylor situation (http://www.post-trib.com/sports/2808914,mhutton-1017.article) as it relates to the Colombian kid being recruited by them and the NCAA investigation of the improper text messages. The article gives some interesting background on how this kid came to be where he is and how he is involved with Baylor.

Oh, and for the folks who thought Baylor was a relatively clean program prior to this investigation, I found this little nugget from a guy who mostly just writes one-liners (http://www.omaha.com/article/20101016/SPORTS/710169821) about sports:


According to a report, the Baylor basketball program is the subject of an NCAA investigation. I haven’t been this shocked since I heard the Harlem Globetrotters beat the Washington Generals.

It is totally off-topic, but here are a few of the other "one liners" from the column--


Virginia Tech offensive lineman Greg Nosal lost the tip of his pinky finger during the win over Central Michigan and refused to leave the game. NFL scouts say he’s just the type of player they’d like to have on their team ... except now he can’t hold, right? He later found the tip inside his glove, had it sewn back on and kept playing. Can we retroactively give this guy every Madden Award from 1975?

Bill Belichick denied having a personality clash with Randy Moss. Sure, in order for there to be a personality clash you have to have a personality.

Two Baylor receivers were arrested when police allegedly found bags of marijuana in their car after one of them fell asleep behind the wheel at a Taco Bell drive-through. This has to be the worst defense ever. “My client, who was snoring in the Taco Bell drive-through, does not use marijuana.”

Georgia running back Caleb King became the 11th Bulldogs player arrested this year. Georgia coach Mark Richt now begins every pregame pep talk with, “You have the right to remain silent ...”

Even though it looks as if the Vikings won’t make the Super Bowl, Favre is the early favorite to take home the Breeders’ Cup.

--Jason "I didn't write it... I just cut and paste" Evans