Irving v. Scheyer

[1991 duke law]

We have heard a lot of rave reviews about Kyrie Irving and many people seem to think that Duke will be much better this year than last year (while we won it all last year, the team was not overwhelmingly dominant). I assume that much of that prognosis is based on Irving arriving and Curry being available to play, because otherwise the make up of the team has not changed much (not in a positive way at least - we have lost two other starters in Zoubek and Thomas).

While I have no reason to believe Irving will not be great, I think that it is easy to overlook what Scheyer delivered last year and what Irving has to replace:

1. Solid leadership at the point with few turnovers and good decision making.

2. Steady scorer that could be relied on to give you 17 a night.

3. Was able to hit the big threes when the pressure was on.

4. Team guy that wanted to win, win, win.

Scheyer was great last year. Irving brings a different dimension to the point in that he allows the offensive pace to change. Is it reasonable to think that Irving as a freshman will make Duke better than Scheyer made Duke last year?

[4decadedukie]

Is it reasonable to think that Irving as a freshman will make Duke better than Scheyer made Duke last year?

It is difficult to say, however, I certainly agree that Jon brought tremendously valuable "intangibles" to Duke (as well as excellent on-court play). With Kyle and Nolan as Senior-Captains, perhaps these CRITICAL attributes will be fully addressed. If they are not, I believe it would be a stretch for ANY freshman to provide the "intangibles" and the leadership that Jon did last year.

[Reddevil]

Scheyer was great last year. Irving brings a different dimension to the point in that he allows the offensive pace to change. Is it reasonable to think that Irving as a freshman will make Duke better than Scheyer made Duke last year?

There is no such thing as better than National Champions. Sheyer was the perfect general for the half court scheme used last year. Irving is a true point guard. He makes a fast pace the way to go again for this year's team. Hopefully, the rest of the team and coaches will have him prepared for the BIG stage. Some freshman aint what they used to be. Irving looks to be an exception. I really think this team goes as far as the Plumlees will take 'em though.

[Bob Green]

This year's team will be completely different from last year's team. Coach Krzyzewski has stated we will completely change the way we play because of the arrival of Kyrie Irivng. However, I cannot see any way to compare a four year veteran who scored over 2000 points and led his team to the National Championship to a freshman who has yet to play a single college game. It is not fair to Irving. We all need to allow Irving the opportunity to adjust to the college game. IMO, the adjustment period will be short; however, just to provide some perspective, Irving is frequently compared to Jason Williams, and Williams started his career at Duke with two losses. Duke lost to Stanford and UConn at Madison Square Garden on November 11 and 12, 1999 in the first two games Williams was a Blue Devil.

In terms of the team in general, last season we had great leadership from three seniors (Scheyer/Thomas/Zoubek) and our starting line-up down the stretch consisted of the three seniors plus two juniors (Singler/Smith). The 2010-11 team will be significantly less experienced and in order to reach their potential Singler, Smith, and junior Miles Plumlee will have to step up and provide strong leadership to the younger members of the team.

[Lord Ash]

I personally do not think that Kyrie will give us the same things Jon did.

However, I think when people talk about this years team being better they do so for a few reasons...

First, the addition of Seth Curry is a big piece of this. I know that I personally think of Jon leaving and being "replaced" by both Kyrie AND Seth, which is some serious talent.

Also, I think people expect that Kyrie's abilities will mesh very nicely with the Plumlees. They seem perfect for his uptempo, break down primary defenders and force secondary defenders to rotate over to you style. I expect a lot of Plumdunks this year!

Then of course you add in a year of growth to Mason, Miles, Ryan, and Dre, and then on top of that Nolan and Kyle.

Replacing Jon is impossible. His basketball IQ and ability to be in the right place at the right time is unmatched this side of Shane, and he was a big time scorer and playmaker. But given everything else, I think we CAN reasonably expect this years team to be very, very, very good.

[Mike Corey]

To complement that which is written above, Kyrie's task isn't to duplicate the skills and abilities Jon brought to the table last year, but instead, to do that which is asked of him for this year's team, and to do it to the best of his ability.

Few are as poised to do that as Kyrie Irving is, based on what we've gleaned from comments from the team and from Coach K himself.

This team will have more pure talent than last year's squad. Cultivating the intangibles that helped Duke become national champions last season will be the order of the day, and as with every K-coached team, the point guard's role will be paramount. Again, from what we know of Kyrie thus far, he possesses the interpersonal skills and character to supplement his immense physical talent to allow him to thrive in K's system.

There will be a number of highlight reel moments; a number of facepalm moments; and a number of times when it will be important to just be grateful to be a fan of this team in this time. Just enjoy the ride, and the opportunity to see an athlete of Kyrie's caliber under the tutelage of Coach K, his staff, and the rest of his team.

[Bob Green]

First, the addition of Seth Curry is a big piece of this. I know that I personally think of Jon leaving and being "replaced" by both Kyrie AND Seth, which is some serious talent.

This is a great point. Based upon his performance last summer on the USA U19 team, where he shot .396 from behind the 3 point line against serious competition, I am optimistic Curry will be a player who develops into a clutch 3 point shooter on this year's squad. Of course, we shouldn't forget about Andre Dawkins who knocked downed the two huge 3-pointers in the first half against Baylor.

Your point is solid - Irving doesn't have to replace Scheyer by himself. It's a team effort and we have a lot of back court depth this year.

[Saratoga2]

While I realize most of this thread concerns comparing the loss of Scheyer to the addition or Irving and Curry,I do think the loss of both Zoubek and Thomas will be felt as well. More than senior leadership, Zoubek had the size to intimidate inside. His rebounding in the second half of the year was important to the teams success and his ability to screen helped our shooters to get open looks. Thomas also brought a lot on the defensive side, His combination of size, mobility and motor made him a valuable defender for quick wings and small forwards. Josh is the only new player with close to similar size and mobility so it remains to be seen how much we will miss Thomas.

I too am hoping for a very good season and think coach K will adjust to the talents of his team as he always does. Improvements in the Plumlees, Dawkins and Kelly will be significant and both Curry and Irving seem to be high quality players.

[Kedsy]

This year's team will be completely different from last year's team.

To me, this is the key point. The only time talking about one player "replacing" another makes sense is if a team is trying to play the exact same style as it did the previous year. This year's team will be one of the top offensive teams in the country, with a marvelous blend of one-on-one penetration skills at three positions, good size and hops up front, and possibly the best outside shooting in the nation. It's not a matter of replacing Jon (or Brian or Lance), it's an assessment of the current personnel.

Our defense will also be different, more vintage Duke -- high pressure, push the opponent's perimeter outside their comfort zone, execute steals in the passing lanes -- kind of D, which will generate its advantage through turnovers rather than offensive boards. We couldn't do that last year with the personnel we had. The improvement of the Plumlees and Ryan Kelly will be key here in protecting the rim when a risk on the perimeter fails to pay off.

Finally, one "intangible" that bringing in Kyrie and Seth and losing Jon and Brian will give us is perception. Last year the perception (unfair as it was) was that Duke was "alarmingly unathletic" and very beatable. This year, I believe opponents will be intimidated by our skill, athleticism and depth. It will be harder for them to believe they can beat us at any facet of the game. They will become demoralized and some teams will give up even if the game is technically within reach. I don't think we should underestimate what that gives us.

[Kedsy]

While I realize most of this thread concerns comparing the loss of Scheyer to the addition or Irving and Curry,I do think the loss of both Zoubek and Thomas will be felt as well.

I sort of said this in my previous post, but personally I don't think we should look at it in terms of "losses," but rather in "changes." And in that light, everything's good.

[CDu]

We have heard a lot of rave reviews about Kyrie Irving and many people seem to think that Duke will be much better this year than last year (while we won it all last year, the team was not overwhelmingly dominant). I assume that much of that prognosis is based on Irving arriving and Curry being available to play, because otherwise the make up of the team has not changed much (not in a positive way at least - we have lost two other starters in Zoubek and Thomas).

While I have no reason to believe Irving will not be great, I think that it is easy to overlook what Scheyer delivered last year and what Irving has to replace:

1. Solid leadership at the point with few turnovers and good decision making.

2. Steady scorer that could be relied on to give you 17 a night.

3. Was able to hit the big threes when the pressure was on.

4. Team guy that wanted to win, win, win.

Scheyer was great last year. Irving brings a different dimension to the point in that he allows the offensive pace to change. Is it reasonable to think that Irving as a freshman will make Duke better than Scheyer made Duke last year?

Irving isn't going to have to replace Scheyer to make Duke as good or better than last year. He's just going to be a part of the team. We hopefully will also have the following, to replace Scheyer, Zoubek, and Thomas:

- improved versions of seniors Singler and Smith to help with leadership
- improved versions of the Plumlees and Kelly to provide interior play and some offense
- improved version of Dawkins and the addition of Curry to provide additional scoring on the perimeter
- addition of Curry and Thornton and improved version of Smith to aid with ballhandling
- depth and athleticism to allow a more up-tempo style to get easy buckets

Now, it could be that Irving could give us 17+ ppg and provide other aspects. But we aren't going to be asking him to do that. Nor do we necessarily NEED him to do that.

[Mike Corey]

To me, this is the key point. The only time talking about one player "replacing" another makes sense is if a team is trying to play the exact same style as it did the previous year. This year's team will be one of the top offensive teams in the country, with a marvelous blend of one-on-one penetration skills at three positions, good size and hops up front, and possibly the best outside shooting in the nation. It's not a matter of replacing Jon (or Brian or Lance), it's an assessment of the current personnel.

Our defense will also be different, more vintage Duke -- high pressure, push the opponent's perimeter outside their comfort zone, execute steals in the passing lanes -- kind of D, which will generate its advantage through turnovers rather than offensive boards. We couldn't do that last year with the personnel we had. The improvement of the Plumlees and Ryan Kelly will be key here in protecting the rim when a risk on the perimeter fails to pay off.

Finally, one "intangible" that bringing in Kyrie and Seth and losing Jon and Brian will give us is perception. Last year the perception (unfair as it was) was that Duke was "alarmingly unathletic" and very beatable. This year, I believe opponents will be intimidated by our skill, athleticism and depth. It will be harder for them to believe they can beat us at any facet of the game. They will become demoralized and some teams will give up even if the game is technically within reach. I don't think we should underestimate what that gives us.

I think these are all important points, notably your mention of the improvement of Ryan Kelly, which I don't think can be stated enough. No one worked harder in the offseason than he did to make himself a solid contributor this year; he's going to be a very important part of that which Duke puts together in '10-'11.

The only point with which I'd quibble is that of the intangible of intimidation toward the end of the game. I think your point has merit at the outset to a certain degree, but once teams remember that Duke is very much human and is prone to errors as much as anyone else, the regular amount of competitive spirit ought to be expected. Or rather, when the end of the game approaches, I don't think teams will fold because we're alarmingly athletic; I think they'll just try and fail to keep up with the team K will have representing us on the court.

[sandinmyshoes]

It will come down to how physical talent weighs against experience. Kyrie is more physically skilled, but will that be countered by his decision making being not as good as Jon's? Helping Kyrie out in this will be that he will have a somewhat more exprienced team around him than had Jon.

[Bob Green]

It will come down to how physical talent weighs against experience. Kyrie is more physically skilled, but will that be countered by his decision making being not as good as Jon's? Helping Kyrie out in this will be that he will have a somewhat more exprienced team around him than had Jon.

I disagree that Kyrie will have a more experienced team around him. Last year's stretch run starting line-up was comprised of three seniors and two juniors. This season we will be starting a minimum of two underclassmen as there are only three upperclassmen on the roster. I believe one fact many Duke fans are overlooking is the 2010-11 Blue Devils will be somewhat inexperienced.

As far as physical talent goes, Jon Scheyer has an abundance of physical talent as does Kyrie Irving. I believe a more accurate assessment would be that Kyrie brings a different physical skill set onto the court. Specifically, much more speed.

[uh_no]

Its complete folly to even attempt to compare them.....just so unrealistic....

jon allowed duke to methodically destroy teams
kyrie will allow us to run them to death...

either way we rock other teams.....jon couldn't do what kyrie will, and kyrie can't do what jon did

[Kedsy]

I think these are all important points, notably your mention of the improvement of Ryan Kelly, which I don't think can be stated enough. No one worked harder in the offseason than he did to make himself a solid contributor this year; he's going to be a very important part of that which Duke puts together in '10-'11.

The only point with which I'd quibble is that of the intangible of intimidation toward the end of the game. I think your point has merit at the outset to a certain degree, but once teams remember that Duke is very much human and is prone to errors as much as anyone else, the regular amount of competitive spirit ought to be expected. Or rather, when the end of the game approaches, I don't think teams will fold because we're alarmingly athletic; I think they'll just try and fail to keep up with the team K will have representing us on the court.

I didn't mean at the end of the game. I was thinking more of the end of the first half or the middle of the 2nd half, when Duke scores 8 in a row to turn a 2 point game into a 10 point game. I can see opposing teams getting demoralized and sagging -- thinking, damn we had them, but now it's over. The "Duke mystique" has helped win games for us in the past.

[sandinmyshoes]

I disagree that Kyrie will have a more experienced team around him. Last year's stretch run starting line-up was comprised of three seniors and two juniors. This season we will be starting a minimum of two underclassmen as there are only three upperclassmen on the roster. I believe one fact many Duke fans are overlooking is the 2010-11 Blue Devils will be somewhat inexperienced.

As far as physical talent goes, Jon Scheyer has an abundance of physical talent as does Kyrie Irving. I believe a more accurate assessment would be that Kyrie brings a different physical skill set onto the court. Specifically, much more speed.

All good points. I would fudge a little bit that this year we will have more players on the court and bench who have been to the Final Four and won a Championship.

[1991 duke law]

Its complete folly to even attempt to compare them.....just so unrealistic....

jon allowed duke to methodically destroy teams
kyrie will allow us to run them to death...

either way we rock other teams.....jon couldn't do what kyrie will, and kyrie can't do what jon did

------------

Folly - unrealistic? The question is how Duke will perform with Kyrie now that Jon is gone. The question was not an analysis as to which player is better.

Many posters have provided excellent responses to the question and raised interesting perspectives.

[El_Diablo]

I disagree that Kyrie will have a more experienced team around him. Last year's stretch run starting line-up was comprised of three seniors and two juniors. This season we will be starting a minimum of two underclassmen as there are only three upperclassmen on the roster. I believe one fact many Duke fans are overlooking is the 2010-11 Blue Devils will be somewhat inexperienced.

Regarding experience, it's not as quantitatively one-sided as you may think when you look at the team surrounding Jon last year and the team surrounding Kyrie this year. Overall, we basically swapped out LT and Z for Hairston and Thornton, but then everyone else on the roster gained a year of experience. Comparing the starting lineups, it's only a difference of one total year among the other four starters. And if you look at the top 8 players surrounding each, then Kyrie's teammates actually have more experience overall.

Surrounding Jon, 2009-10
SR: Thomas, Zoubek, Davidson*
JR: Singler, Smith, Peters
SO: Plumlee
FR: Plumlee, Dawkins, Kelly, Zavirofksi

Starters (surrounding Jon)
JR, JR, SR, SR
2/2/3/3
10 years experience

Rotation, top 8 (surrounding Jon)
JR, JR, SR, SR, SO, FR, FR, FR
2/2/3/3/1/0/0/0
11 years experience

Surrounding Kyrie, 2010-11
SR: Singler, Smith, Peters
JR: Plumlee
SO: Plumlee, Curry*, Dawkins, Kelly, Zavirofski
FR: Hairston, Thornton

Assumed starters (surrounding Kyrie)
SR, SR, JR, SO
3/3/2/1
9 years experience

Assumed rotation, top 8 (surrounding Kyrie)
SR, SR, JR, SO, SO*, SO, SO, FR
3/3/2/1/2/1/1/0
14 years experience...or 13.5 if you discount Seth's redshirt season.

Then if you factor in qualitative experience, I think Mason as a SO has more in-game experience than Miles did entering last year as a SO. As for the SRs, it's pretty safe to say that Singler and Smith have more in-game experience entering this year than LT and Z had entering last year. And, as mentioned by sand above, we have some returning national championship experience now that we didn't have last year.

Of course, you're right that Scheyer was more experienced then than Irving is now, so that kind of throws off the numbers in the grand scheme of "which team is more experienced." But if we just look at the players surrounding our starting PG, it's a different story.

[dukestheheat]

With Irving at the point, Duke is going to turn on the jets. We certainly should see more turnovers (than with Jon at the point last year) but with Duke in jet mode, it shouldn't matter as much because we'll be scoring in droves. Remember, we are picking up the Number One scoring guard in Irving and then here comes Curry along with Dawkins and Nolan Smith! Whoaa! That would give some pro teams a push!

The Duke team last year was more methodical with the steady Scheyer running the point, and that paid off; this year's team is just going to run the opponent off of the floor.

dth.

[Newton_14]

------------

Folly - unrealistic? The question is how Duke will perform with Kyrie now that Jon is gone. The question was not an analysis as to which player is better.

Many posters have provided excellent responses to the question and raised interesting perspectives.

I believe you about it not being who was better, but with the title being "Irving vs Scheyer" it sort of came across like that. I know I was not comfortable with the thread when I first saw it. Not really fair to either player. But it seems now that was not your intent.

A bit of irony: I went back and read just about all of Jumbo's Phase 0 from last season, last night. There was one exact quote in that thread that became prophetic, though not in the way the poster was intending.

The quote was
"As we've discussed before, if this team had one of the best PG's in the country, then I think it would be a probable national champion."

What the OP did not realize at the time was, Duke indeed would have one of the best PG's in the country last year, and that was a big reason the team won the title.

As for your thread, I think Duke will again have one of the best PG's in the country. It is just that he is a totally different type of player. Kyrie will not be running the same offense Jon ran last year. We will play fast and keep the opposing teams under constant pressure on both ends of the court. Kyrie should thrive in that scheme much like Jon thrived in last year's scheme.

We are blessed to have Kyrie Irving to offset the gap left by losing Jon Scheyer. Same thing with Seth Curry.

[dbluedevil222]

I think this thread is pretty silly. A few months ago, Nolan Smith was interviewed and discussed Seth Curry. Nolan Smith stated that he believed that Seth would be one of the top players in the country. Nolan explained during the season that he was a good defender because of how hard Seth was to guard in practice... AKA if you can guard Seth, you can hang with anyone in the country.

You all can watch youtube clips all you want, but I'm going to take a Nolan's word on something like that as the biggest indicator of someone's skill, and not a forum poster's limited and unproven analysis.

The reason I mention that is because there will be no replacing of positions. Kyrie will not be playing 36.725 minutes per game. The Plumlees will not always be playing 4/5. This will be a completely different team, with 3 explosive guards who, as far as ANYONE can tell, have the potential to be All American. Kyle is a 3/4 that is also a potential All American. Add the two Plumlees who have proven they can both see significant minutes (see GT game), along with Andre and Ryan who could also make an impact.

This is a completely different team. We will see 3 guard lineups with Kyle at the 4, and 2 guard ones with Kyle at the 3. There should be no discussion of Kyrie vs Jon, or Miles vs Zoubs, because the minutes allocation will be completely different. When you are playing up tempo, and pushing the ball, players don't/can't play as long. They can still get great numbers (20+pts per game, etc), but Duke won't need to play Kyle for 38 minutes a game.

I hate to say it but look at some of UNC's better teams, and how many minutes everyone played. When you have a ton of talent, you play them.

[uh_no]

I think this thread is pretty silly. A few months ago, Nolan Smith was interviewed and discussed Seth Curry. Nolan Smith stated that he believed that Seth would be one of the top players in the country. Nolan explained during the season that he was a good defender because of how hard Seth was to guard in practice... AKA if you can guard Seth, you can hang with anyone in the country.

You all can watch youtube clips all you want, but I'm going to take a Nolan's word on something like that as the biggest indicator of someone's skill, and not a forum poster's limited and unproven analysis.

The reason I mention that is because there will be no replacing of positions. Kyrie will not be playing 36.725 minutes per game. The Plumlees will not always be playing 4/5. This will be a completely different team, with 3 explosive guards who, as far as ANYONE can tell, have the potential to be All American. Kyle is a 3/4 that is also a potential All American. Add the two Plumlees who have proven they can both see significant minutes (see GT game), along with Andre and Ryan who could also make an impact.

This is a completely different team. We will see 3 guard lineups with Kyle at the 4, and 2 guard ones with Kyle at the 3. There should be no discussion of Kyrie vs Jon, or Miles vs Zoubs, because the minutes allocation will be completely different. When you are playing up tempo, and pushing the ball, players don't/can't play as long. They can still get great numbers (20+pts per game, etc), but Duke won't need to play Kyle for 38 minutes a game.

I hate to say it but look at some of UNC's better teams, and how many minutes everyone played. When you have a ton of talent, you play them.

I think you make a great point about minutes in the up-tempo style

the ability of kyle nolan and jon to play 35+ minutes game in and game out was no doubt enhanced by the type of offense we ran.....we weren't running and gunning....but very methodical....not only will the change in the makeup of the team change the minutes (obv) but with the increased speed at which the game will be played, I think it would be likely impossible for kyle and nolan to maintain their excellent play for 35 minutes a game....I know they are great athletes....but the faster you run the team, the less stamina you have

that said, I think it's likely kyle and nolan will see < 30 minutes most games.....and I see around 25 for each of the other big 6 on the team (sorry josh and tyler....i gotta see something before I can pen you into my rotation)

but i most certainly see us utlilizing a small lineup at times mostly just to get our 3 main bigs rest...and I think the guard rotation will be very fluid

anyway, this kind of thing has been beaten to death.....but I love to tell people that our second guard lineup (seth and andre) is probably the starting pair for just about any other team in the country......that's incredible

[1991 duke law]

I actually find the responses to the question excellent. The analysis is quite remarkable frankly and I greatly appreciate the insights. I take it that the title may be misconstrued as a "who is better" question, but that was not my intention.

My focus really was on how good Jon was (frankly, how unexpectedly good he was last year) and whether we (Duke) could realistically expect to be as good if not better without him. I recall vividly the first two games (losses) Jason Williams played in NY. I also recall an article in which it was discussed that Jason was clowning around after the losses, and Shane had to take him aside and tell him that losing sucked (or something to that effect) and that he should tone it down. But that was a freshman still learning. I personally think that Williams grew into one of the most incredible scoring point guards that I have seen, as witnessed by his performances in years 2 and 3. That is essentially what I wonder about Kyrie - how quickly can he transition to ACC play and get to that type of level of performance. I have met Jon and always closely followed his progress - his growth into the point guard that he showed in his senior year was so impressive. He was never "alarmingly athletic" but he always got it done. I am fascinated to see how this team transitions from, as one person noted, a "methodical" point guard to an entirely different animal.

Gents - reading the posts here after reading the posts in a tar heel chat forum - wow, what a difference. Most impressive.

[JohnGalt]

I didn't mean at the end of the game. I was thinking more of the end of the first half or the middle of the 2nd half, when Duke scores 8 in a row to turn a 2 point game into a 10 point game. I can see opposing teams getting demoralized and sagging -- thinking, damn we had them, but now it's over. The "Duke mystique" has helped win games for us in the past.

I take it you mean the "Tiger Woods Effect." Up until the scandal, golfing announcers always mentioned Tiger as 'lurking' close by on the leaderboard come Sunday (sometimes even Saturday). And inevitably, whenever he made his move, the other golfers seemed to just sort of cave...Phil, Ernie, everyone...they seemed to just roll over and let him win. Or at the very least, as he generally played exceptional golf, fail to challenge. It was a depressing phenomenon.

Back to Duke, I think that I completely agree with what Kedsy is saying. The difference in this past year's squad and the upcoming one is just that...they're different. "Replacing" is the wrong term to use. Maybe the overly used cliche "reloading" is a better term? We're reloading the PG position with Kyrie Irving?

And just like the new Nike commericals, my prediction is: "BOOM" right from the start...

[flyingdutchdevil]

Back to Duke, I think that I completely agree with what Kedsy is saying. The difference in this past year's squad and the upcoming one is just that...they're different. "Replacing" is the wrong term to use. Maybe the overly used cliche "reloading" is a better term? We're reloading the PG position with Kyrie Irving?

And just like the new Nike commericals, my prediction is: "BOOM" right from the start...

The problem with "reloading" is that is sounds like Scheyer and Irving are similar players. IMO, they are as different as you can get, yet effective (or hopefully effective). Scheyer is the turtle - steady, reliable, and always worked hard. Irving is a non-lazy rabbit - fast, agile, and creative (terrible analogy, I know. But you get the point) Both are great PGs in their own way.

This team has already proven that it can win games in the more-difficult half-court game. Now let's see if they can win in Mike D'antoni's system.

[dukeballboy88]

I dont care what type of tempo Duke plays, Kryie can play the postition and thats off of things coach k has stated. Fast or slow I think Kyrie can play either but I dont think Jon would fair to well in the uptempo style of play at the point.

To answer the question, to me, you ask a player to play a position and after that results is all that matter and you cant argue with Jon's results playing the pg position. Kyrie has big shoes to fill is all I can say!

[uh_no]

I dont care what type of tempo Duke plays, Kryie can play the postition and thats off of things coach k has stated. Fast or slow I think Kyrie can play either but I dont think Jon would fair to well in the uptempo style of play at the point.

To answer the question, to me, you ask a player to play a position and after that results is all that matter and you cant argue with Jon's results playing the pg position. Kyrie has big shoes to fill is all I can say!

where did coach say that kyrie can play a methodical offense like jon.....

all i hear is kyrie will allow us to run.....

[Cockabeau]

where did coach say that kyrie can play a methodical offense like jon.....

all i hear is kyrie will allow us to run.....


I am pretty sure Kyrie can handle a methodical approach being that he can shoot,handle and create for others.

[Kedsy]

I am pretty sure Kyrie can handle a methodical approach being that he can shoot,handle and create for others.

I don't know about methodical, but I'm confident Kyrie and Duke will excel in the half-court game as well as the running game. In fact, in many ways I expect our offense to be just as devastating (if not more) in a half-court set. We will at all times have two (and often three) guys who will demand a double-team (Kyrie, Nolan, Kyle, and possibly Seth), plus two big men who if left alone specialize in alley-oops and receiving dump offs for dunks, along with at all times three or maybe four guys who are top shelf three-point shooters (Nolan, Kyle, Seth, Andre, maybe Kyrie, maybe Ryan). It's literally impossible to cover all that.

[johnb]

There is no such thing as better than National Champions. Sheyer was the perfect general for the half court scheme used last year.

I agree with the above, but for the purpose of argument:

1. Our team is widely expected to be better than last year's team. We were ranked between 3 and 10 all year (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/2010-mens-coaches-poll-database.htm?csp=obinsite) and no one thought we were even close to Kansas and Kentucky. I still think the 09-10 Duke team would generally lose to K and K, especially if they played in some sort of best of 5 series. Fortunately, that's not the way the NCAA works for basketball. But is there room for improvement? Of course. If we aren't ranked #1 for much/all of the coming regular season, most of us will view the regular season as being something of a disappointment (at least in regards to that specific measurement). Of course, if we lost 4 of our first 8 games but win another NCAA championship, we'd still see it as a perfect season.

2. Kyrie Irving is, by all accounts, a significantly better basketball player than Jon Scheyer. If JS still had a year of eligibility--even after last year's glorious season--our starting backcourt by January would be KI and NS. KI will be a lottery pick, NS will be a first rounder (I hope), and JS will--maybe, someday--get an NBA paycheck but will probably be a very productive coach.

3. JS was the perfect floor general for a half court offense, but he was the reason for the offense being a half court variety. It worked great, totally played into Zoub's strengths, and led to the championship, but we're much more likely to win championships when we maximize the number of possessions while having a decisive talent disparity at most positions--and that will be true for almost every game this year and not true in several of the games last year.

[sandinmyshoes]

I agree with the above, but for the purpose of argument:

1. Our team is widely expected to be better than last year's team. We were ranked between 3 and 10 all year (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/2010-mens-coaches-poll-database.htm?csp=obinsite) and no one thought we were even close to Kansas and Kentucky. I still think the 09-10 Duke team would generally lose to K and K, especially if they played in some sort of best of 5 series. Fortunately, that's not the way the NCAA works for basketball. .

That's what keeps us on edge during a season. Last season we probably weren't the champs if the tournement was played in series. This year we could very well be the best team in a series setting, but you lose just one game and it's over.

[Duvall]

I agree with the above, but for the purpose of argument:

1. Our team is widely expected to be better than last year's team. We were ranked between 3 and 10 all year (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/2010-mens-coaches-poll-database.htm?csp=obinsite) and no one thought we were even close to Kansas and Kentucky. I still think the 09-10 Duke team would generally lose to K and K, especially if they played in some sort of best of 5 series.

Not really important, but you may be overrating Kentucky a bit there. UK notched an impressive record against an unimpressive schedule; the only elite or semi-elite team they played last year was the one that ended their season. I think Duke could have taken them in a short series.

Kansas was another matter - they assembled an exceptional body of work and were the pre-tournament favorite for a reason. Which shows how crazy the NCAA Tournament can be.


Fortunately, that's not the way the NCAA works for basketball. But is there room for improvement? Of course. If we aren't ranked #1 for much/all of the coming regular season, most of us will view the regular season as being something of a disappointment (at least in regards to that specific measurement). Of course, if we lost 4 of our first 8 games but win another NCAA championship, we'd still see it as a perfect season.

Expectations Watch! Duke 1999 couldn't even manage to be ranked #1 for the much of the season; I think disappointment may be a bit too strong a word to use there.


2. Kyrie Irving is, by all accounts, a significantly better basketball player than Jon Scheyer. If JS still had a year of eligibility--even after last year's glorious season--our starting backcourt by January would be KI and NS. KI will be a lottery pick, NS will be a first rounder (I hope), and JS will--maybe, someday--get an NBA paycheck but will probably be a very productive coach.

Look, Jon Scheyer was a 2nd-team All-American. I think it would be more accurate to say that nearly everyone expects Irving to be a better basketball player in 2012, 2013 and beyond, but it's asking a lot to assume a true freshman can reach that level in year one, no matter how talented.

Fortunately, he won't have to be quite that good for Duke to be an elite team in 2011.

[Rich]

Finally, one "intangible" that bringing in Kyrie and Seth and losing Jon and Brian will give us is perception. Last year the perception (unfair as it was) was that Duke was "alarmingly unathletic" and very beatable. This year, I believe opponents will be intimidated by our skill, athleticism and depth. It will be harder for them to believe they can beat us at any facet of the game. They will become demoralized and some teams will give up even if the game is technically within reach. I don't think we should underestimate what that gives us.

The worst thing that could possibly happen is for the team to buy into this perception of themselves. We've seen time and time again that talent does not win NCAA games, team's do. I think last year Kentucky relied precisely on what you wrote (and West Virginia didn't).

[RoyalBlue08]

2. Kyrie Irving is, by all accounts, a significantly better basketball player than Jon Scheyer. If JS still had a year of eligibility--even after last year's glorious season--our starting backcourt by January would be KI and NS. KI will be a lottery pick, NS will be a first rounder (I hope), and JS will--maybe, someday--get an NBA paycheck but will probably be a very productive coach.



Really? I'm not so sure I am ready to accept this, given the kid has yet to play a college game. I will tell you this though, if I could have a 5th year of Jon or Jay Williams in his freshman year, I would take Jon hands down. Maybe KI will be better than Jay was, but I think assuming he will be due to his high school performance is a bit much.

[Kedsy]

The worst thing that could possibly happen is for the team to buy into this perception of themselves. We've seen time and time again that talent does not win NCAA games, team's do. I think last year Kentucky relied precisely on what you wrote (and West Virginia didn't).

I agree it's important for the team to stay "hungry and humble." But whether the players buy into this perception or not (and I'm sure K will attempt to make sure they don't), it will be the general perception. There's nothing we can do about that.

[striker219]

I agree with the above, but for the purpose of argument:

2. Kyrie Irving is, by all accounts, a significantly better basketball player than Jon Scheyer. If JS still had a year of eligibility--even after last year's glorious season--our starting backcourt by January would be KI and NS. KI will be a lottery pick, NS will be a first rounder (I hope), and JS will--maybe, someday--get an NBA paycheck but will probably be a very productive coach.

For the purpose of argument, and I'm as excited as anyone about Kyrie's potential, but you're giving a lot of credit to an exceptionally talented kid who is yet to play a minute of college basketball. Jon averaged better than 18 points a game, shot almost 40% from 3, close to 90% from the free throw line, and had an assist to turnover ratio of a hair under 3.0, good enough for second best in the country if I remember correctly. And all of that came playing nearly every minute of almost every game as the leading scorer for a top five or ten team playing one of the most difficult schedules of any team in the country. How many people can claim a season like that in the last decade or two?


3. JS was the perfect floor general for a half court offense, but he was the reason for the offense being a half court variety. It worked great, totally played into Zoub's strengths, and led to the championship, but we're much more likely to win championships when we maximize the number of possessions while having a decisive talent disparity at most positions--and that will be true for almost every game this year and not true in several of the games last year.

Jon was part of the reason for our emphasis on the half court game, but so was Brian, so was Lance, so too were Eliot Williams and Gerald Henderson for that matter. When a team is as limited in the backcourt as we were last year, you have to do everything you can to minimize injuries, and that includes minimizing possessions per game. Also, when you have the best offensive rebounder in the country who doesn't run the floor particularly well, you want to minimize the number of possessions. When you minimize possessions, you need a point guard like Jon who values the ball and is ruthlessly efficient more than you need a point guard with lightning speed and highlight reel moves. Jon wasn't just a superb basketball player, he was the right player for the situation.

Here's a question for you; if we had had Kyrie on the court a year ago, would we have been as good as we were? Would we have won the championship? By the same token, if we had had John Wall would we have been as good as we were? Scheyer absolutely was the perfect floor general for our team, but plugging a different point guard into that system wasn't going to change the rest of the team around him or the type of game that they excelled at.

[MChambers]

3. JS was the perfect floor general for a half court offense, but he was the reason for the offense being a half court variety. It worked great, totally played into Zoub's strengths, and led to the championship, but we're much more likely to win championships when we maximize the number of possessions while having a decisive talent disparity at most positions--and that will be true for almost every game this year and not true in several of the games last year.
There was a lot more to it than just Jon. Duke only had four perimeter players. Kyle was in his first year of playing on the perimeter. The team as a whole wasn't particularly fast.

[MChambers]

For the purpose of argument, and I'm as excited as anyone about Kyrie's potential, but you're giving a lot of credit to an exceptionally talented kid who is yet to play a minute of college basketball. Jon averaged better than 18 points a game, shot almost 40% from 3, close to 90% from the free throw line, and had an assist to turnover ratio of a hair under 3.0, good enough for second best in the country if I remember correctly. And all of that came playing nearly every minute of almost every game as the leading scorer for a top five or ten team playing one of the most difficult schedules of any team in the country. How many people can claim a season like that in the last decade or two?



Jon was part of the reason for our emphasis on the half court game, but so was Brian, so was Lance, so too were Eliot Williams and Gerald Henderson for that matter. When a team is as limited in the backcourt as we were last year, you have to do everything you can to minimize injuries, and that includes minimizing possessions per game. Also, when you have the best offensive rebounder in the country who doesn't run the floor particularly well, you want to minimize the number of possessions. When you minimize possessions, you need a point guard like Jon who values the ball and is ruthlessly efficient more than you need a point guard with lightning speed and highlight reel moves. Jon wasn't just a superb basketball player, he was the right player for the situation.

I see you beat me to the punch on the various reasons for a slow tempo last year.

I'd just like to add to your first point. Jon's offensive rating, according to Pomeroy, was 10th best in the entire country last year. Simply amazing, given all he was asked to do.

[Kedsy]

Here's a question for you; if we had had Kyrie on the court a year ago, would we have been as good as we were? Would we have won the championship? By the same token, if we had had John Wall would we have been as good as we were? Scheyer absolutely was the perfect floor general for our team, but plugging a different point guard into that system wasn't going to change the rest of the team around him or the type of game that they excelled at.

Well, I think it would have totally changed the team around him. My guess is we would have run a lot of small lineups, like Wall, Nolan, Jon, Kyle, and a Plumlee (probably Mason, unless he still gets hurt), with Lance first off the bench, followed by the other Plumlee. Andre probably doesn't come to school a year early, and Z plays only about 10 mpg absent injuries or foul trouble. It's a quick, athletic team, that runs a lot (despite its lack of depth) and relies on PG penetration and dump offs in the halfcourt. There's lots of DBR debate about whether we'll run out of gas in March because our starters are playing so many minutes. Typical of Duke teams it would force a lot of turnovers and not rebound particularly well. John Wall would have been the "absolutely... perfect floor general" for the system we ran, and the team would have been a #1 seed in the NCAAs. Would we have won the championship? Sorry, my crystal ball isn't that good. We might have lost to Northern Iowa.

[striker219]

Well, I think it would have totally changed the team around him. My guess is we would have run a lot of small lineups, like Wall, Nolan, Jon, Kyle, and a Plumlee (probably Mason, unless he still gets hurt), with Lance first off the bench, followed by the other Plumlee. Andre probably doesn't come to school a year early, and Z plays only about 10 mpg absent injuries or foul trouble. It's a quick, athletic team, that runs a lot (despite its lack of depth) and relies on PG penetration and dump offs in the halfcourt. There's lots of DBR debate about whether we'll run out of gas in March because our starters are playing so many minutes. Typical of Duke teams it would force a lot of turnovers and not rebound particularly well. John Wall would have been the "absolutely... perfect floor general" for the system we ran, and the team would have been a #1 seed in the NCAAs. Would we have won the championship? Sorry, my crystal ball isn't that good. We might have lost to Northern Iowa.

So we would essentially have been running the same type of team last year that we're all so excited about this year. Interesting thought. While that would have been an incredibly fun team to watch, I think the biggest weakness in running that type of team last year is one that we face this year; frontcourt production. Offensive, defensive, but more importantly fouls.

The Plumlee's were foul prone in somewhat limited minutes in games with a fairly low number of possessions. I'm not inclined to think that increasing their time on the court and increasing the number of possessions in game would decrease their likelihood to foul. Them being in foul trouble in that situation would have really changed the dynamic of the team.

[dukeballboy88]

coach k said in an recent interview that Kyrie was better suited to play the pg position this early than jay williams.

I watch old Jay Williams clips and get excited so yes, Im very hype about Kyrie!

Scheyer, did an amazing job last year and I am gonna miss him very much!

[Kedsy]

So we would essentially have been running the same type of team last year that we're all so excited about this year. Interesting thought. While that would have been an incredibly fun team to watch, I think the biggest weakness in running that type of team last year is one that we face this year; frontcourt production. Offensive, defensive, but more importantly fouls.

The Plumlee's were foul prone in somewhat limited minutes in games with a fairly low number of possessions. I'm not inclined to think that increasing their time on the court and increasing the number of possessions in game would decrease their likelihood to foul. Them being in foul trouble in that situation would have really changed the dynamic of the team.

Yes, foul trouble in the frontcourt would have been an issue, but not as big an issue as one might think, with Lance and Z (and occasionally Ryan) coming off the bench. Obviously Z and (last year's) Ryan wouldn't be able to run the floor as well as the Plumlees or Lance, but I'd guess they could play sufficiently well to deal with it if the Plumlees had to sit on the bench for a stretch.

And while I think last year's hypothetical John Wall-included team would have been similar to what we'll see this year, I think this year's team will be even better, because of superior quality depth. Z wouldn't have fit so well into that fast-paced style, and Ryan wasn't ready to contribute, so as a practical matter we would have been 7 deep with 8th-man Z playing mostly due to injuries and/or MPs' foul trouble. This year's team probably has the quality to go 10 deep, although we'll more likely go 8 or 9. Also, since our sixth man will probably be a guard (presumably Seth) instead of a forward (Lance, in the hypothetical), our defense will be better balanced (with Kyle at the 3 rather than the 4) than the hypothetical last year team, with fewer obvious weaknesses.

If we have frontcourt foul trouble this year, the added depth will allow us to deal with it, probably by going small and then looking even more similar to the hypothetical team, although a bit smaller which would highlight potential defensive issues if we can't have two mobile bigs on the floor.

You mention offensive frontcourt production, but personally I'm not worried about offensive production from anybody. We have too many offensive weapons. If one or two aren't available or aren't working, we'll still be very formidable on the offensive end.

[dbluedevil222]

Would someone mind posting a link to Jason Williams in high school or freshman year at duke. It's amazing how searching online when specifying the year does absolutely nothing.... everything links to either Kyrie, 17 straight points, or the "other" jason williams

[striker219]

And while I think last year's hypothetical John Wall-included team would have been similar to what we'll see this year, I think this year's team will be even better, because of superior quality depth.

If we have frontcourt foul trouble this year, the added depth will allow us to deal with it, probably by going small and then looking even more similar to the hypothetical team, although a bit smaller which would highlight potential defensive issues if we can't have two mobile bigs on the floor.

Totally agree. On paper, the 2010-2011 team is designed perfectly to outrun, outscore, outpress and flat out outplay just about everyone in the country. And this coming just after a National Championship. I'm giddy.


You mention offensive frontcourt production, but personally I'm not worried about offensive production from anybody. We have too many offensive weapons. If one or two aren't available or aren't working, we'll still be very formidable on the offensive end.

We really do have a frightening array of firepower. Outside shooters, at least 3 40% 3-point shooters in Nolan, Kyle, and Andre. Seth shot about 35% from 3 as the main scoring option for Liberty going against defenses designed to slow him down; I think we can only assume he's going to be at least as solid when the defense is more focused on other people. And based on his high school career Kyrie should be able to hold his own.

But they're not just shooters. We've seen that Nolan can drive and finish with the best of them, Kyle can score from just about anywhere on the court, Seth did it all at Liberty with the defense focused on him, and we've all seen the videos of Kyrie leaving a defender or three on the floor. Throw in a couple of 6'10" high jump champs, another 6'10" guy who's great with the ball and only getting stronger, a rock solid supporting cast and the best coach in the game and you have a pretty formidable team. Once again, I'm giddy.

[striker219]

Would someone mind posting a link to Jason Williams in high school or freshman year at duke. It's amazing how searching online when specifying the year does absolutely nothing.... everything links to either Kyrie, 17 straight points, or the "other" jason williams

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/duke/22-jason-williams

Edit: While we're on the subject of Jason Williams, this never gets old (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9_pPqWfI84).

[COYS]

It will be interesting to see the difference in defense, as well. Scheyer's underrated wing defense was instrumental in Duke's top 5 ranking in defensive efficiency. Seth, Kyrie, and Tyler will all help replace Scheyer and will certainly increase the amount of pressure we can put on opposing point guards. However, it will be interesting to see how much our defense on the wing changes. Nolan will most likely move into Scheyer's roll as a wing defender while Kyrie will guard the point. While I think we will see more steals and fast breaks off of our defense, we will also be more spread out and, with the exception of Nolan, our guards will be going through the acc slate for the first time. As K has said time and time again, this year's team will be very different from last year's championship squad. The speed at which our guards adjust to the traditional Duke pressure defense will go a long way toward negating the loss of Scheyer as a wing defender.

[Kedsy]

It will be interesting to see the difference in defense, as well. Scheyer's underrated wing defense was instrumental in Duke's top 5 ranking in defensive efficiency. Seth, Kyrie, and Tyler will all help replace Scheyer and will certainly increase the amount of pressure we can put on opposing point guards. However, it will be interesting to see how much our defense on the wing changes. Nolan will most likely move into Scheyer's roll as a wing defender while Kyrie will guard the point. While I think we will see more steals and fast breaks off of our defense, we will also be more spread out and, with the exception of Nolan, our guards will be going through the acc slate for the first time. As K has said time and time again, this year's team will be very different from last year's championship squad. The speed at which our guards adjust to the traditional Duke pressure defense will go a long way toward negating the loss of Scheyer as a wing defender.

I agree. We'll probably give up more backdoor baskets and not rebound as well, but hopefully we'll make up for that by forcing a lot more turnovers and shots beyond the opposition's comfort zone. We'll probably also be able to run a pretty effective half-court press when we need to shake things up.

[SoCalDukeFan]

I think this is a great question. Jon S is one my favorite Duke players ever. Duke won the NC. It seem on the surface a little silly to think Duke will be better.

Duke could, I suppose do better, by winning the NC, the ACC Tournament, and the ACC regular season. Or go undefeated.

While Jon was very very very good, all indications are that Kyrie is also very very very good. Fortunately we have Coach K and can expect that he will figure out a style that gets the most out of the team.

Looking forward to the season.

SoCal

[Kedsy]

I think this is a great question. Jon S is one my favorite Duke players ever. Duke won the NC. It seem on the surface a little silly to think Duke will be better.

Duke could, I suppose do better, by winning the NC, the ACC Tournament, and the ACC regular season. Or go undefeated.

It will be difficult to achieve more than the 2009-10 team, but personally I think "better" and "achieve more" are two entirely different questions.

[COYS]

It will be difficult to achieve more than the 2009-10 team, but personally I think "better" and "achieve more" are two entirely different questions.

Well, I think it will be hard for Kyrie to be "better" than Scheyer, as well. He posted a top ten individual offensive efficiency rating, including his astounding 3-1 a/t ratio while being used on a quarter of the teams possessions. Also, duke's offense was number 1 in efficiency and while Zoubs rebounding was a big part of that, Scheyer still had the most to do with our stellar offense. In terms of efficiency, Jon was a better offensive player than John Wall and, as of last season, was a better point guard than Wall. If Kyrie is going to match Jon's efficiency (and that is a tall, tall order), it will likely be because heracks up assists and easy buckets on fast breaks as we run teams into oblivion. The only way Jon could have been even better would have been for him to shoot a higher percentage from the field. I think Kyrie will be able to do this because of his ability to get to the rim. If he shoots a really high percentage from the floor and If he is also able to avoid letting his a/t ratio drop too low, he has an outside shot to be as efficient as Jon was last season. However, I think this is unlikely. Luckily, just being very good will be enough for Duke to be a great team. Duke will be different and Jon will be missed, greatly. However, Kyrie doesn't have to match Jon for Duke to be elite.

[Kedsy]

Well, I think it will be hard for Kyrie to be "better" than Scheyer, as well. He posted a top ten individual offensive efficiency rating, including his astounding 3-1 a/t ratio while being used on a quarter of the teams possessions. Also, duke's offense was number 1 in efficiency and while Zoubs rebounding was a big part of that, Scheyer still had the most to do with our stellar offense. In terms of efficiency, Jon was a better offensive player than John Wall and, as of last season, was a better point guard than Wall. If Kyrie is going to match Jon's efficiency (and that is a tall, tall order), it will likely be because heracks up assists and easy buckets on fast breaks as we run teams into oblivion. The only way Jon could have been even better would have been for him to shoot a higher percentage from the field. I think Kyrie will be able to do this because of his ability to get to the rim. If he shoots a really high percentage from the floor and If he is also able to avoid letting his a/t ratio drop too low, he has an outside shot to be as efficient as Jon was last season. However, I think this is unlikely. Luckily, just being very good will be enough for Duke to be a great team. Duke will be different and Jon will be missed, greatly. However, Kyrie doesn't have to match Jon for Duke to be elite.

As I (and others) alluded earlier in the thread, I don't think there's much to be gained by comparing two outstanding players with very different styles and attempting to anoint one or the other as "better." The key thing to me is the team could be better, whether Kyrie is better than Jon or not, because of its depth and its ability to play the style at which Kyrie excels. As I also said, however, even if the team is better, it can't realistically achieve more than the 2009-10 Blue Devils, who won pretty much everything there was to win.

[NSDukeFan]

Being a bit of a stats geek, I appreciate how people on this board have directed me to KenPom and efficiency data. When comparing this year's team to last year's team (and I realize they are very different) does anybody think this year's team will be any more efficient defensively? I ask this because most of our optimism seems to stem from the offensive firepower this year's team has. Yet, last year's champion Duke team already had the most efficient offensive team in the country. I believe Duke ranked somewhere around 9th or 10th in defensive efficiency. I expect this year's Duke team to run more and score more points, but will it be any more efficient offensively than last year's team and/or more efficient defensively even though defensive communication was a strength of the three seniors who left? I welcome your thoughts.

[Kfanarmy]

JS was the perfect floor general for a half court offense, but he was the reason for the offense being a half court variety. It worked great, totally played into Zoub's strengths, and led to the championship, but we're much more likely to win championships when we maximize the number of possessions while having a decisive talent disparity at most positions--and that will be true for almost every game this year and not true in several of the games last year.

I'll take even money that Duke is more likely to have won a championship with Jon Scheyer than Duke is to win a Championship with the assembled much better team. The odds on growth during the year are incalculable and must occur on both ends of the floor for a TEAM result. The sentiment here indicates that Kentucky won last year. Let's not forget that there are two teams on the floor and defense and offense must complement each other. So while I'm excited to see Duke play more uptempo, I'm no more excited than I was to see the progression Duke was making Mid-ACC schedule last year with the apparently unskilled JS at the helm.

[COYS]

As I (and others) alluded earlier in the thread, I don't think there's much to be gained by comparing two outstanding players with very different styles and attempting to anoint one or the other as "better." The key thing to me is the team could be better, whether Kyrie is better than Jon or not, because of its depth and its ability to play the style at which Kyrie excels. As I also said, however, even if the team is better, it can't realistically achieve more than the 2009-10 Blue Devils, who won pretty much everything there was to win.

I completely agree with you, Kedsy. I was simply responding to the post that indicated that Jon's brilliance was in team success rather than individual success. Obviously, the success of the team last year was more important than Jon's individual performance, but I was just restating just how brilliant Jon's individual performance was. I also don't think it outlandish to consider how Kyrie could approach Jon's play by highlighting Kyrie's strengths and their differences. Of course, I understand how unlikely it is that Kyrie will be as efficient as Jon but, as you, me, and others have stated, that won't prevent Duke from beig a good team.

[phaedrus]

Duke could, I suppose do better, by winning the NC, the ACC Tournament, and the ACC regular season.


Didn't we do that last year?

Unless you mean win the ACC regular season outright, which might be considered a slight improvement.

[MChambers]

Being a bit of a stats geek, I appreciate how people on this board have directed me to KenPom and efficiency data. When comparing this year's team to last year's team (and I realize they are very different) does anybody think this year's team will be any more efficient defensively? I ask this because most of our optimism seems to stem from the offensive firepower this year's team has. Yet, last year's champion Duke team already had the most efficient offensive team in the country. I believe Duke ranked somewhere around 9th or 10th in defensive efficiency. I expect this year's Duke team to run more and score more points, but will it be any more efficient offensively than last year's team and/or more efficient defensively even though defensive communication was a strength of the three seniors who left? I welcome your thoughts.

Hard to say if this year's team will be more efficient at either end. I hope so.

I hope that we turn teams over more, leading to easy baskets. That would increase our efficiency. On the other hand, I'm sure we'll make more turnovers, which will decrease our efficiency. Also, I doubt that we'll be as good at offensive rebounding, which also will hurt our offensive efficiency.

Hard to say about shooting percentages. On offense, having five perimeter players who are good to excellent shooters should help, and Kelly might help stretch the defense. On defense, we'll be gambling more, and probably giving up some easy baskets from time to time.

If our inside players can avoid fouling too frequently, it would help our defensive efficiency a lot. That was a relative weakness last year.

[nocilla]

I think the only way Kyrie can acheive more than Jon is to stay more than one year and win more than one Championship.

[1991 duke law]

I think the only way Kyrie can acheive more than Jon is to stay more than one year and win more than one Championship.

I am all for that!

We are so stacked at the guard spot. Considering Rivers coming in next year, it is a sea of riches. The real challenge in this area is for Coach to get sufficient minutes to keep everyone placated. Smith, Irving, Dawkins, Curry ..... a lot of firepower.

[Kedsy]

Hard to say about shooting percentages. On offense, having five perimeter players who are good to excellent shooters should help, and Kelly might help stretch the defense. On defense, we'll be gambling more, and probably giving up some easy baskets from time to time.

Our shooting percentage should be very high. Most of our three point shooters should be in the 40% range and a large number of our other shots will be dunks. Still, our offensive efficiency numbers will suffer due (as you said) to more turnovers and fewer offensive rebounds.

Having said that, we should be able to outscore most opponents. As usual with Duke, defense will be the key.

[BD80]

...
Having said that, we should be able to outscore most opponents. As usual with Duke, defense will be the key.

If we can outscore them, why bother with defense?

So sayeth the wise and wonderful Cal

[Kedsy]

If we can outscore them, why bother with defense?

So sayeth the wise and wonderful Cal

Actually Cal's teams often play pretty good defense. The above statement might be more attributable to the great and powerful Roy.

[BD80]

Actually Cal's teams often play pretty good defense. The above statement might be more attributable to the great and powerful Roy.

No, no, no. ol' roy the one's without a heart.

No, wait. He's the one without a brain,

the nerve.


Oh hell, maybe he will just click his ruby slippers and go back to Kansas


yes, and toto too

[Troublemaker]

Agree that a comparison between Kyrie and Jon isn't that relevant given the anticipated different style of play this season. There are things Kyrie will be asked to do that Jon probably couldn't do, and also vice versa (since Jon was a senior leader, afterall, and Kyrie is a freshman...)

In a weird way, I kind of feel Kyrie will play a part in "replacing" Zoubek as much as anyone. Since Z was literally the best offensive rebounder in the country, I think he brought consistency to an offense that relied on perimeter shooting. Duke was allowed to miss shots because Zoubek would often grab the rebound and give our shooters another chance to score. This season, we can't expect the bigs to just step in and dominate the glass like Zoubek, but we hope Kyrie will make the offense consistent in his own way by inducing easy baskets on fastbreaks and penetrations that result in layups for himself or teammates.