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oregon98er
06-06-2007, 12:44 PM
A Duke friend of mine recently got married and the conversations during the weekend often turned to general Duke memories and basketball in particular. We need help from the DBR audience to settle one of those conversations.

A "draft" was staged among two friends of Krzyewski-era players...5 deep. But there was no consensus among the group of which team would "win". In retrospect, we should have went 7 or 8 deep, but this still has a resolution. Not only was there no consensus among the group, but most whom were asked to pick, couldn't give a firm choice. So, here are the teams...

Blue Team:
Jason Williams
Johnny Dawkins
Shane Battier
Christian Laettner
Shelden Williams

White Team:
Bobby Hurley
JJ Redick
Grant Hill
Danny Ferry
Elton Brand

The proposed matchups should be pretty obvious playing the traditional Duke man-to-man.

We did note that the teams were skewed towards the 90's with no Amaker, Alarie, etc. from the late 80's. Obviously, if we would have went 7 or 8 deep those names would have shown up. So, I ask you, DBR readership for insight, opinions, and analysis...

cato
06-06-2007, 12:55 PM
A Duke friend of mine recently got married and the conversations during the weekend often turned to general Duke memories and basketball in particular. We need help from the DBR audience to settle one of those conversations.

A "draft" was staged among two friends of Krzyewski-era players...5 deep. But there was no consensus among the group of which team would "win". In retrospect, we should have went 7 or 8 deep, but this still has a resolution. Not only was there no consensus among the group, but most whom were asked to pick, couldn't give a firm choice. So, here are the teams...

Blue Team:
Jason Williams
Johnny Dawkins
Shane Battier
Christian Laettner
Shelden Williams

White Team:
Bobby Hurley
JJ Redick
Grant Hill
Danny Ferry
Elton Brand

The proposed matchups should be pretty obvious playing the traditional Duke man-to-man.

We did note that the teams were skewed towards the 90's with no Amaker, Alarie, etc. from the late 80's. Obviously, if we would have went 7 or 8 deep those names would have shown up. So, I ask you, DBR readership for insight, opinions, and analysis...


No Boozer?

HoganLake
06-06-2007, 01:14 PM
No Boozer?

I would sub Boozer for Williams also....

Jfrosh
06-06-2007, 01:26 PM
I'd pay big money to see that game. Here is the breakdown as I see it.

Hurley vs. Williams - Hurley's big game/moment prowess, defensive skills, passing and offence vs Williams quickness, big game/moment prowess and offense - PUSH

JJ vs Johnny - Both would put up some points, but JJ could not stop Johnny's offense and JJ would have difficulty putting up big numbers vs Duke's team man to man. Advantage - Johnny (Blue)

Battier vs Hill - Battier is a huge team player and may get Hurley in foul trouble drawing charges, but Grant is so skilled offensively and defensively he would have to get the edge. Advantage - Hill (White)

Laettner Vs. Ferry - Both good inside and out. Ferry was a better passer, Laettner much stronger inside and rebounder. Laettner probably better at the big moment. (Probably the best in college basketball history at making big shots. Advantage - Laettner (Blue)

Shelden vs Brand - Both big defensively but Brand was much more skilled offensively. Advantage - Brand. (White)

The white team will pound it into Elton and then hit from 3. While the blue team will slash inside for the midrange game, possibly drawing some white foul touble. With Battier in their to stop Hurley's drives the fouls will rack up on the white team.
White will be up by 4 with under 10 seconds left to go. Williams (BLUE) will hit a 3 then steal the inbounds pass throw it to Laettner who will hit the winning basket as time expires. Blue wins as Thomas Hill cries on the sideline.

jimsumner
06-06-2007, 01:53 PM
If you're just looking at college careers, the 4-year career of Shelden Williams looks a bit better than the 3-year career of Carlos Boozer. Boozer only made All-ACC once and never made first-team A-A.

Of course, some of us would try to find a place for Mr. Alarie.

oregon98er
06-06-2007, 02:13 PM
Yeah, we were just thinking about what they accomplished at Duke. For that reason, Boozer didn't make either team. But if you went 8 deep, he'd be a nice guy coming off the bench.

And Mr. Alarie is a tough one. But whom do you take off that list and for matchup reasons, he'd have a hard time with Brand or Williams, don't you think?

Classof06
06-06-2007, 02:56 PM
I'd pay big money to see that game. Here is the breakdown as I see it.

Hurley vs. Williams - Hurley's big game/moment prowess, defensive skills, passing and offence vs Williams quickness, big game/moment prowess and offense - PUSH

Hurley's the man, but I didn't see anyone in 3 years that could guard J Will one on one. Hurley would have his hands more than full. And that's nothing to be ashamed of, either.

jimsumner
06-06-2007, 03:06 PM
Alarie? Simple. Move Laettner to the 5 and play Alarie at the 4. Reluctantly send Shel to the bench. Or maybe not. A case can be made either way.

It's a tribute to K's program that great players like Vince Taylor, Tommy Amaker, Roshown McLeod, Trajan Langdon, Chris Carrawell, Mike Dunleavy, Dahntay Jones, and Chris Duhon don't even make the discussion.

Mwalimu
06-06-2007, 03:41 PM
Where's the Shelden love? Two straight NATIONAL defensive player of the year awards. Top rebounder and most blocked shots in Duke history. Led ACC in rebounds (first Coach K player to do so) and blocks and finished in the top 5 in steals his senior year. Second most double-doubles in Duke history and one of three Duke players with a triple-double. Plus he averaged more points his senior year than Boozer ever did. There's a reason that Shelden's jersey is hanging from the rafters.

Consider this: Between just Shelden and Battier, the Blue team has 5 National Defensive Player of the Year awards. Who's going to score against that front line? Throw in the high-scoring backcourt of Dawkins and J Williams and that's one crazy team on both ends of the court. Oh, and they also happen to have arguably the best overall college player of all time in Laettner too. I enthusiastically vote for the Blue team.*

* For sake of full disclosure, I must admit that I'm the friend alluded to by Oregon98er who "drafted" this Blue team.

Lord Ash
06-06-2007, 03:47 PM
Just making sure you guys saw this post...

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2093

It is along the lines of the game you are playing!

According to the voting, the blue team has three starters, a bench player, and an "other great."

The White team has two starters, two bench players, an an "other great."

So you guys nailed all of the Starters and Bench guys who got votes, and two of the top three bench guys, missing only Gminski, who rated slightly higher than Shelden. Interesting!

trinity92
06-06-2007, 03:49 PM
I'd put air brickey up against either of those teams all alone and have a ball watching him play. I suppose you could sub in Phil Henderson to give robert a breather. :p

cato
06-06-2007, 03:54 PM
If you're just looking at college careers, the 4-year career of Shelden Williams looks a bit better than the 3-year career of Carlos Boozer. Boozer only made All-ACC once and never made first-team A-A.

Of course, some of us would try to find a place for Mr. Alarie.

I'm not so sure. One obvious point in Boozer's favor is the National Championship. The team would not have won that NC without Boozer in the middle. Also, Boozer's scoring would have been much higher had he not been sharing the ball with J-Will, Battier and Dunleavy (during his first two years, at any rate). Williams benefitted by being the 2nd option during his career.

At any rate, if you are putting together a team with Jason Williams, you almost have to include Boozer. They just mastered the pick and roll at the top of the key.

jimsumner
06-06-2007, 04:22 PM
"Williams benefitted by being the 2nd option during his career."

Well, sorta. His last two seasons he was second option to the most prolific scorer in ACC history. His first two seasons he shared the ball with Dahntay Jones, Redick, Duhon, Ewing, and Deng, so other people were taking shots.

We're parsing pretty small gradations here. I would opt for Alarie, Shel, and Boozer in that order but am hardly inclined to argue with those who see it differently.

Indoor66
06-06-2007, 04:24 PM
Naw, Brickey needs ....
Patrick Davidson. That combo wins against either listed team or permutations thereof!

VaDukie
06-06-2007, 04:34 PM
I'd pay big money to see that game. Here is the breakdown as I see it.

Hurley vs. Williams - Hurley's big game/moment prowess, defensive skills, passing and offence vs Williams quickness, big game/moment prowess and offense - PUSH

Hurley's the man, but I didn't see anyone in 3 years that could guard J Will one on one. Hurley would have his hands more than full. And that's nothing to be ashamed of, either.

J Will was tough to guard, but Steve Blake always gave him problems. He always reminded be of Hurley with longer arms, so I wouldn't be so sure Hurley couldn't knock J Will off his game a little.

JBDuke
06-06-2007, 05:37 PM
The cool thing about being a Duke fan is that there has been so much talent wearing blue and white in the past 25+ years that there are LOTS of choices. For example, this would be a heck of a team, IMO:

Amaker
Dunleavy
King
Alarie
Boozer

You have two of the best defenders to come through Duke in Amaker and King. Boozer gives you a great low post presence for interior scoring and rebounding. Alarie can score down low or drift out to the 3 point line. Dunleavy gives you a deep threat. Amaker gives you the "coach on the floor" presence. If you really want to get defensive, you could sub C-well for Mike, but I like Mike's shooting a little better than Chris's. If you need more offense, you could take Henderson over King. David was an excellent defender in his own right and more of an offensive threat.

These games are always fun!

trinity92
06-06-2007, 06:20 PM
Will Avery
Phil Henderson
Luol Deng
Robert Brickey
Carlos Boozer

This team would get up and down the floor like nobody's business, shoot lights out from the outside, have deng and boozer owning the boards and blocking shots, with amazing on the ball defense and speed at both guard slots. Phil would stay in JJ's face and could foul him out on the other end with ease. Avery was just as fast as Hurley and JW and could really shoot from outside. Brickey is simply the man-- I'd pay to see him one on one with G. Hill any day.

Does your team have a player who dunked over Alonzo Mourning? Didn't think so.

oregon98er
06-06-2007, 06:51 PM
But there might be a reason why none of those jerseys are hanging in Cameron. We were on campus with Avery and went to a ton of his games, and while a freakish athlete, please don't put him in the class of Williams and Hurley. Please.

And while Brickey was a phenomenal athelete and dunk-master for sure, Grant had a lot of that as well...oh yeah, and he could score from other than 2 ft away and won a National Defensive POY award too.

Had Deng stayed around more than one year, maybe...but he really only had great numbers in the Final Four run. He was slightly above average for at least half the year. His stats for half a year simply don't add up to the careers of the others mentioned in this post.

Boozer's merit is documented on this post and Phil Henderson was great. Those two would definitely have been on one of the benches.

Half of that team seems to rely on someone else to help them score. Obviously, Deng and Avery could score on their own, but there wouldn't be enough shots to go around with Will running the show. Perhaps Boozer was the best passer of those 5?

And do you really think that white team couldn't run the floor?

Hector Vector
06-06-2007, 07:00 PM
My starting 5 (based totally on Duke career, not pro career). More years count in player's favor, although not dispositive)

PG -- Hurley (closest competition over Williams)
SG - J.D.
SF -- G. Hill
PF -- Battier
C-- Laettner

Second Team

PG -- J-Will
SF -- JJ
SF -- Alarie (cheating a little as he was a 4 in college)
PF -- Ferry
C -- Shelden (Brand loses ground because of only 1 1/2 yrs)

Third Team

PG -- Amaker (edges Duhon)
SG -- Trajan
SF -- C-Well
PF -- Dunleavy
C -- Brand

Least favorite playor: Greg Newton (by far)

mepanchin
06-06-2007, 07:11 PM
Where's the Shelden love? Two straight NATIONAL player of the year awards. Top rebounder and most blocked shots in Duke history. Led ACC in rebounds (first Coach K player to do so) and blocks and finished in the top 5 in steals his senior year. Second most double-doubles in Duke history and one of three Duke players with a triple-double. Plus he averaged more points his senior year than Boozer ever did. There's a reason that Shelden's jersey is hanging from the rafters.


Your points are well taken, but I have an argument in favor of Boozer.

Shelden's career achievements are incredibly admirable, there is no doubt, but perhaps what is most admirable is his ability to stay on the floor his junior and senior seasons. Big men typically don't play the kind of minutes he had to in 05 and 06: 83.7% and 82.9% (of total minutes he could play) respectively. By comparison, Boozer played 70.7% of the possible minutes his junior year (and sophomore year the numbers are even worse considering he was out for about 7 games).

All the "raw" stats that Shel ostensibly one-ups Boozer with are subject to this problem. Boozer simply did not log nearly the same kind of floor time that Shel did, so there's no possible way for him to compete.

Of course, Shel was a much better shot blocker. For his career he was usually had around a 9-10% block rate (that is, he blocked approximately 9-10% of all opponent 2 point attempts while he was on the floor), whereas Boozer's was nearly nonexistent.

In Boozer's favor, though, he was far more refined around the basket offensively. Shelden may have averaged more points, but Boozer was far more efficient. Both players rarely turned it over, but Boozer shot 66.5% from the field his junior year, while Shel shot about 58% (which is still very admirable). Boozer was also as good a rebounder offensively (maybe better) and maybe only a bit worse defensively (by probably the same margin). Boozer also got to the line more often per FGA.

I guess ultimately my point is that Boozer was to offense what Shelden was to defense. Both learned to play the side of the ball they weren't as naturally comfortable with very well by their final years, but they offered different benefits.

On a team already with JWill and Dawkins, I would not really find the need for Shel's defense to override the need for Boozer's offense. A perfectly balanced offense can just destroy even excellent defensive teams (see Florida this year against almost anyone), and Shel's excellent help D was really most useful to clean up the mess caused by Redick's poor perimeter defense. Throw a couple guys in the backcourt who will harass opposing guards and cause turnovers, and I think Boozer is the more valuable player for the team.

oregon98er
06-06-2007, 07:12 PM
my apologies to trinity92...didn't see your title at first..."under the radar"

i'd be inclined to put CC on that list though above brickey

gus
06-07-2007, 05:43 AM
Hurley's the man, but I didn't see anyone in 3 years that could guard J Will one on one. Hurley would have his hands more than full. And that's nothing to be ashamed of, either.

There's a reason why (well, reveral reasons why) many people consider Hurley among the best point guards in NCAA history.

I think a lot of people forget how quick Bobby was. Jwill, as great as he was, would have had difficulty guarding him. The blake example is a good one to cite in defense of the notion that Hurley would have given Williams fits. Think about how many times Hurley would single handedly create turnovers with a 5 second violation...

I'd give the nod to the white team here.

Classof06
06-07-2007, 11:14 AM
There's a reason why (well, reveral reasons why) many people consider Hurley among the best point guards in NCAA history.

I think a lot of people forget how quick Bobby was. Jwill, as great as he was, would have had difficulty guarding him. The blake example is a good one to cite in defense of the notion that Hurley would have given Williams fits. Think about how many times Hurley would single handedly create turnovers with a 5 second violation...

I'd give the nod to the white team here.

I consider Hurley one of the best point guards in NCAA history. And I also agree that J Will would have his hands full defending Hurley as well, no doubt about that. Overall though, I have to give the edge to J Will. Just one man's opinion, but I personally think he is the best Duke player in the Krzyzewski era. I think the Blue team prevails over the White team according to the first post in the thread, and I'm rather confident about that.

Also, as far as the Shelden vs. Boozer argument, I go with Shelden. Probably a little biased as Shelden is a fellow '06er, but Boozer's junior year, he averaged 18 and 9, Shelden averaged 19 and 11. And I think we can all agree that Shelden is a more formidable defensive presence than Carlos was. I'm with Mwalimu, Shelden (probably due to his demeanor) will always be overlooked, and I still contend that he was as important to that 05-06 team as Redick was.

When you factor in the fact that he was able to stay on the floor his junior and senior years in spite of being the last line of defense for dribble pentration and defending his man with no help 95% of the time, his defense was truly amazing. All this, and I haven't even mentioned that he was an AP All-American his senior year. This guy did so many things for that 05-06 team that will go unnoticed, and if he had gotten just a teeny bit more of the often inadequate help he got from Redick in the tournament, I think we take the whole damn thing that year. I can't ever knock Boozer, because he was phenomenal as well, but Shelden was the consummate college center. You cannot ask for anything more than what that kid gave.

MIV
06-07-2007, 12:38 PM
Will Avery
Phil Henderson
Luol Deng
Robert Brickey
Carlos Boozer

This team would get up and down the floor like nobody's business, shoot lights out from the outside, have deng and boozer owning the boards and blocking shots, with amazing on the ball defense and speed at both guard slots. Phil would stay in JJ's face and could foul him out on the other end with ease. Avery was just as fast as Hurley and JW and could really shoot from outside. Brickey is simply the man-- I'd pay to see him one on one with G. Hill any day.

Does your team have a player who dunked over Alonzo Mourning? Didn't think so.

It wasn't in college, but Grant did have a nice dunk over Alonzo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkC-is6cW9U

trinity92
06-07-2007, 01:18 PM
great video. thanks!

For Oregon98-- please don't get me started on Will Avery. With all that talent wasted, I'm afraid we have to count him as a victim of the Duke PG curse. I saw plenty of Hurley at Cameron, but never saw Avery in person. I'd still guess Avery was faster than BH or JW. If he'd only stayed and developed his game...... I'd better stop before I get upset.

Mwalimu
06-07-2007, 01:53 PM
Looks like Oregon98er and I will have to call this bet a tie with one firm vote from gus for his White Team and one dramatic vote from Jfrosh for my Blue Team. If only we could really see this game played....

trinity92
06-07-2007, 02:39 PM
I think the following roster would stand up well against all comers

PG- Hurley
SG- J Williams (Played 2 in HS)
SF- G. Hill
PF- Brand
C- Laettner

Bill McCaffrey subs at PG for 3 mins (would get six minutes if he'd stayed)
JJ subs at SG
Battier subs at SF
Boozer subs at PF
Shelden subs at C

Riding the pine: Ferry, Dawkins, Dunleavy, Deng.

Waterboys/Spit-Bucket Carriers: Collins, Shav, Casey S.

Highlander
06-07-2007, 03:20 PM
J Will was tough to guard, but Steve Blake always gave him problems. He always reminded be of Hurley with longer arms, so I wouldn't be so sure Hurley couldn't knock J Will off his game a little.

Good point. IIRC, Williams had many a horrible game against Maryland. Even in the comeback game, Williams did very little until Blake fouled out. From that point on, Maryland had no answer for JWill, and a sure win was "Gone in 54 Seconds."

BobbyFan
06-07-2007, 03:54 PM
Blue Team:
Jason Williams
Johnny Dawkins
Shane Battier
Christian Laettner
Shelden Williams

White Team:
Bobby Hurley
JJ Redick
Grant Hill
Danny Ferry
Elton Brand

White team's superior passing (Hurley, Hill, Ferry) would be particularly invaluable in a game like this where there is so much talent to blend in. And while Blue has the defensive standouts to disrupt White's half court offense, they would have a difficult time stopping Hurley when he pushes the ball, with Hill streaking down a lane and JJ spotting behind the 3 point line. An area of concern for White would be rebounding where there are outmatched, but as always, I think Hill would fill in well enough in that area of need to hold fort.

The key matchup would be Williams-Hurley and I just don't think Williams matches up well. Hurley has the defensive savvy and stamina to be able to at least slow Williams down, while I don't think Williams would have much impact on Hurley's ability to run the show.

Blue team has the greater sum of talents, but White team's chemistry allows them to realize more of their potential. White team wins.

Nice thread.

cato
06-07-2007, 04:12 PM
White team's superior passing (Hurley, Hill, Ferry) would be particularly invaluable in a game like this where there is so much talent to blend in. And while Blue has the defensive standouts to disrupt White's half court offense, they would have a difficult time stopping Hurley when he pushes the ball, with Hill streaking down a lane and JJ spotting behind the 3 point line. An area of concern for White would be rebounding where there are outmatched, but as always, I think Hill would fill in well enough in that area of need to hold fort.

The key matchup would be Williams-Hurley and I just don't think Williams matches up well. Hurley has the defensive savvy and stamina to be able to at least slow Williams down, while I don't think Williams would have much impact on Hurley's ability to run the show.

Blue team has the greater sum of talents, but White team's chemistry allows them to realize more of their potential. White team wins.

Nice thread.

Nice analysis, but I still not sure how much Hurley would slow down J-Will. If you will recall, Jason only needed 1/2 a step on anyone not named Blake. From there, his strength and uncanny ability to finish at the rim took over. Now, this is based only on memory, but I'm pretty sure Blake had an inch or two on Hurley (and a longer reach, as well).

I still say that you sub Los for Shel on the Blue team. Now you have J-Will and Carlos running the pick and roll at the top of the key to perfection, with Laettner spotting up in the corner. And if none of J-Will, Boozer and Laettner are open for a shot? Why, you'd have Dawkins (how many points would he have scored with a 3-point line for 4 years?) and Battier.

Oh my. That team would be almost impossible to defend.

cspan37421
06-07-2007, 04:48 PM
Jon Goodman
George Burgin
Weldon Williams
Martin Nessley

I need one more. A little help?

In a runaway game the crowd went nuts when these guys went in. In one I saw Goodman go either 1-1 or 1-2 from the field, draw a foul, and go 2-2 from the line for 4 points. We fans were like, hey K, where ya been hiding this guy?

Of course his career numbers [1-7 FG (0-3 3pt), 4-5 FT] don't exactly cry out for more PT.

BobbyFan
06-08-2007, 09:02 AM
Nice analysis, but I still not sure how much Hurley would slow down J-Will. If you will recall, Jason only needed 1/2 a step on anyone not named Blake. From there, his strength and uncanny ability to finish at the rim took over. Now, this is based only on memory, but I'm pretty sure Blake had an inch or two on Hurley (and a longer reach, as well).

I'm not saying Hurley would slow Williams down based on him fitting the Steve Blake model. I'm basing it on the fact that Hurley was an excellent defender, particuarly in his ability to pick his man up full court and disrupt the opposing offense's rhythm.

jimsumner
06-08-2007, 11:53 AM
"Jon Goodman
George Burgin
Weldon Williams
Martin Nessley

I need one more. A little help?

In a runaway game the crowd went nuts when these guys went in."


Umm, no. Weldon Williams graduated in 1986. George Burgin redshirted that year. Jon Goodman only played in the 1987 season. So WW never played with these guys. Ray Essex, Andy Berndt, and football player Dave Colonna were other walk-ons in 1987, although Colonna only played two minutes.

Trinity92. These kinds of discussions go on all the time. I've never seen McCaffrey's name before. You'd have to go pretty deep to get to Billy, considering only his Duke career.

cspan37421
06-08-2007, 05:29 PM
"

In a runaway game the crowd went nuts when these guys went in."


Umm, no. Weldon Williams graduated in 1986. George Burgin redshirted that year. Jon Goodman only played in the 1987 season. So WW never played with these guys.

Chill out, jimsumner. I didn't mean to imply that they were all on the same squad in the same year. They were scrubs from different years that I was there. It was merely a tongue-in-cheek reply to this thread, which linked great K-era players. I just thought it would be fun to think of K-era scrubs whose entry into the game nearly always meant a big Duke win was sealed.

Hopefully others will be edified for your history lesson.

jimsumner
06-08-2007, 06:58 PM
Okay, cspan.

Curious bunch you've come up with. A true walk-on, a scholarship player who rarely played, and two scholarship players who did get significant PT, one of whom played in the NBA.

I could come up with a long list of walk-ons but I don't wish to be accused of edifying anyone. :)

mepanchin
06-08-2007, 07:18 PM
How about these teams.

"White" Team
Bobby Hurley
Billy McCaffrey
JJ Redick
Danny Ferry
Christian Laettner

Blue Team
Jason Williams
Johnny Dawkins
Shane Battier or Grant Hill (pick your poison)
Carlos Boozer
Elton Brand

Now my hunch is that the 2nd team would win comfortably, but I wonder by just how much?

mapei
06-08-2007, 09:35 PM
My starting 5 (based totally on Duke career, not pro career). More years count in player's favor, although not dispositive)

PG -- Hurley (closest competition over Williams)
SG - J.D.
SF -- G. Hill
PF -- Battier
C-- Laettner

Second Team

PG -- J-Will
SF -- JJ
SF -- Alarie (cheating a little as he was a 4 in college)
PF -- Ferry
C -- Shelden (Brand loses ground because of only 1 1/2 yrs)

Third Team

PG -- Amaker (edges Duhon)
SG -- Trajan
SF -- C-Well
PF -- Dunleavy
C -- Brand

Least favorite playor: Greg Newton (by far)


Man, that is a heck of a 15-man team. Personally, I would start JJ over Johnny on the first team but that's incredibly close, and they are two different kinds of players. Without Shane I would start Johnny for better D but I'm less worried about that with Shane on the floor.

I might also think about whether Boozer could play the 4 on the third team and, if so, I would move Dunleavy to the 3 and relegate C-Well to the deep bench. I'd also start Duhon over Amaker but that is an extremely hard call to make either way.

Alarie, I don't know. That was so long ago that I honestly can't remember him much. He was a K recruit, are you sure? It's hard for me to believe he was as good as the other guys on the second team or noticably better than the guys on the third team. But that's all splitting hairs. I agree with the choices and the order except for the ones I mentioned.

jimsumner
06-09-2007, 10:50 AM
Mark Alarie was a long-time ago? Yikes. He graduated from Duke 14 years after I did. He's a baby. A 6'8" baby.

Yes, Alarie was a K recruit. He was in the Dawkins-Henderson-Bilas class. He started for four years, was first-team All-ACC twice, second-team All-ACC once and an All-American in 1986. He scored 2,136 points and grabbed 833 rebounds at Duke and was a great defensive player; he held Danny Manning to 4 points in the 1986 FF. Alarie was a first-round draft pick and had a solid NBA career before suffering a career-ending leg injury. Mark got an MBA at the Wharton School of Business-no dummy here-and is a venture capitalist in the D.C. area.

At the college level Mark Alarie was a better player than Carlos Boozer and I say that without hesitation and with great respect for Boozer.

And I still don't understand how people keep putting Billy McCaffrey on these lists. Two seasons at Duke, 9.1 ppg.

mapei
06-09-2007, 11:17 AM
McCaffrey shouldn't even make the deep bench. Decent player, far from a great one in this context.

I confess that I wasn't really paying attention during the Dawkins-Henderson-Bilas years. I took a little sabbatical from Duke basketball during those years, although I do remember coming out briefly to watch the 86 Final Four and feeling incredibly disappointed. I picked it up in 89 and haven't looked back since then.

But yes, Jim, 86 was TWENTY ONE years ago. That's five or six generations in college basketball. Face truth, my man. ;)

jimsumner
06-09-2007, 11:33 AM
Eh! EH! Say What? Speak up. Speak into my good ear.

Sorry 1986 seems like yesterday. I'm still waiting on a do-over for that last minute.

cspan37421
06-09-2007, 03:31 PM
For me it was more than the last minute. The whole second half it seemed to be slipping away. I was on the quad in '86 - the team had lifted my spirits so much as a freshman (coming in as a football fan, with many formative years in big 10 country - what was I thinking?). But for some reason I didn't feel incredibly disappointed. Ellison played out of his mind and it seemed that there were a few fast break layups that went against us. It seemed like Johnny D was doubled much of the time and once or twice, tripled. Yet he shot 10-19! I couldn't believe it when I saw the box score. The other guys just missed open jumpers or got it swatted away when they took it to the rack. In my yearbook it has a shot of Henderson (looking tiny) going up for a layup against Ellison, who is extended like a condor, ready to humble him. IIRC Henderson shot 5-15 and we were badly outrebounded, out-shot, and out-blocked. I think we had more steals to make the score as close as it was, but to me any do-over would have begun at halftime, giving a bit more weight to freshman Ferry and less weight to seniority in the undersized front line.

Cameron
06-09-2007, 05:56 PM
Maybe not the best all-around player in the Coach K era, but Jason Williams was, in my opinion, hands down the most dominant one-man scorer. If it hadn't been for the injury, he may have been Isiah Thomas good in The Association. Seriously.

My top five (in no particular order):

Jason Williams
Christian Laettner
Shane Battier
Grant Hill
JJ Redick