Baylor's Lacedarius Dunn Suspended for Assault

[slower]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/basketball/ncaa/10/05/dunn.baylor.ap/index.html?eref=sihp

We'll see how long this lasts. The cynic in me says he'll miss only a couple of games, if any at all. As a wise man once said, money talks and BS walks.

[SCMatt33]

This is becoming a disturbing trend after Tony Woods and Tre'von Willis. Obviously, trouble with the law is nothing new in sports, but these types of assault cases haven't been this common (3 in a few months) in college before.

[BD80]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/basketball/ncaa/10/05/dunn.baylor.ap/index.html?eref=sihp

We'll see how long this lasts. The cynic in me says he'll miss only a couple of games, if any at all. As a wise man once said, money talks and BS walks.

Dude is 6'4" 200lb, punched his girlfriend in the face and broke her jaw.

I think Scott Drew is the kind of person that will take this seriously.

[Duvall]

Dude is 6'4" 200lb, punched his girlfriend in the face and broke her jaw.

I think Scott Drew is the kind of person that will take this seriously.

Why?

[BD80]

Why?

Family reputation

[Duvall]

Family reputation

Pretty thin gruel given Scott Drew's reputation among his fellow coaches.

[juise]

Family reputation

I would also cite the moral/religious/spiritual image that he projects for the team. It might be a front, but I tend to believe that it's not. And if he doesn't deal with it based solely on his own convictions, I tend to believe that he will suffer a short-term setback for the long-term good of the program. It's not like he has to win now. He has a 10-year contract and a top 5 player coming in 2012.

[juise]

Pretty thin gruel given Scott Drew's reputation among his fellow coaches.

Are you referring to recruiting questions or something about the behavior of Baylor players?

[tommy]

This is becoming a disturbing trend after Tony Woods and Tre'von Willis. Obviously, trouble with the law is nothing new in sports, but these types of assault cases haven't been this common (3 in a few months) in college before.

They haven't? Unfortunately, these types of cases have been all too common in college sports - especially football and mens basketball - for a lot longer than the past few months.

[Duvall]

Are you referring to recruiting questions or something about the behavior of Baylor players?

The former.

[sagegrouse]

... is the President of Baylor now -- since June, I believe. I expect the school will basically just kick him out, and he can finish his career elsewhere, after he settles up with the law. Or maybe I am just extrapolating from the harsh actions Starr took on Whitewater, a failed land deal. I mean, aggravated assault is much more serious, isn't it?

sagegrouse

[roywhite]

... is the President of Baylor now -- since June, I believe. I expect the school will basically just kick him out, and he can finish his career elsewhere, after he settles up with the law. Or maybe I am just extrapolating from the harsh actions Starr took on Whitewater, a failed land deal. I mean, aggravated assault is much more serious, isn't it?

sagegrouse

That's Ken Starr, Duke Law class of 1973.

Vernon Jordan was the featured speaker at Duke's 1973 commencement (roywhite's graduation, also); his path would cross again with Starr some years later.

[Duvall]

... is the President of Baylor now -- since June, I believe.

One of the most baffling career decisions I've ever seen. Malibu to Waco - who *does* that?

[SCMatt33]

They haven't? Unfortunately, these types of cases have been all too common in college sports - especially football and mens basketball - for a lot longer than the past few months.

I've seen plenty of run-ins with the law, and even violent crimes, but I can't remember 3 separate domestic violence related arrests of top level basketball players in this short of a time period. I wasn't really clear before, but I'm specifically referring to domestic violence. I can't remember this many instances this close to each other before.

[Newton_14]

I've seen plenty of run-ins with the law, and even violent crimes, but I can't remember 3 separate domestic violence related arrests of top level basketball players in this short of a time period. I wasn't really clear before, but I'm specifically referring to domestic violence. I can't remember this many instances this close to each other before.

Make that 4 instances. Lance Stephensen got arrested last month for the exact same thing. Pushed his girlfriend who is also the mother of his child down the steps face first.

[mph]

One of the most baffling career decisions I've ever seen. Malibu to Waco - who *does* that?

1. A BBQ lover.
2. A Branch Davidian

And I'm spent.

[DukeFanSince1990]

1. A BBQ lover.
2. A Branch Davidian

And I'm spent.

3. Hank Hill

[Atlanta Duke]

Well this story obviously needs to have a lid put on it ASAP

Edwards' lawyer, Jason Darling, said the victim and her family were "extremely disappointed" at the felony charge against Dunn. Darling said his client did not want to pursue charges and plans to file an affidavit of non-prosecution in an attempt to get the charges dismissed.

Darling acknowledged that Dunn did indeed punch his client in the face one time after "she got up in his face arguing."

Darling said he believed the case merited nothing more than a misdemeanor charge against Dunn based on the injuries his client sustained. He said she suffered "two minor fractures in her jaw" that were treated with "minor day surgery." He said there was minor swelling and that her jaw was not wired shut, and reports of loose or missing teeth were inaccurate....

The woman's father, Charles Edwards, told The Associated Press from his home in Monroe, La., that his daughter didn't have a broken jaw and that "somebody down there is trying to make a story out of nothing."

The elder Edwards said his daughter was "laughing and giggling" when he went to Waco after the alleged attack.

"If something would have happened to my daughter, I would probably be in jail right now in Waco because I probably would have done something to that young man," said Charles Edwards, who said his daughter is in Monroe. "In this case, she said they were playing, and that's it."

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5652481

Nothing to see here ... move along

[FireOgilvie]

Well this story obviously needs to have a lid put on it ASAP

Edwards' lawyer, Jason Darling, said the victim and her family were "extremely disappointed" at the felony charge against Dunn. Darling said his client did not want to pursue charges and plans to file an affidavit of non-prosecution in an attempt to get the charges dismissed.

Darling acknowledged that Dunn did indeed punch his client in the face one time after "she got up in his face arguing."

Darling said he believed the case merited nothing more than a misdemeanor charge against Dunn based on the injuries his client sustained. He said she suffered "two minor fractures in her jaw" that were treated with "minor day surgery." He said there was minor swelling and that her jaw was not wired shut, and reports of loose or missing teeth were inaccurate....

The woman's father, Charles Edwards, told The Associated Press from his home in Monroe, La., that his daughter didn't have a broken jaw and that "somebody down there is trying to make a story out of nothing."

The elder Edwards said his daughter was "laughing and giggling" when he went to Waco after the alleged attack.

"If something would have happened to my daughter, I would probably be in jail right now in Waco because I probably would have done something to that young man," said Charles Edwards, who said his daughter is in Monroe. "In this case, she said they were playing, and that's it."

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5652481

Nothing to see here ... move along

Sarcasm? It seems obvious to me that the woman and her father are trying to protect LaceDarius. LaceDarius and Lacharlesia (yes, that's her name) have a child together and if he gets kicked out of school and doesn't get to the NBA because of that, they are out of luck.

[striker219]

So we have LaceDarius Dunn and Tre'Von Willis at guard, Lance Stephenson playing a wing forward (he may be a little undersized but I think we can make it work), and Tony Woods in at center. If the Michigan State sexual assault thing plays out right and we get a decent rebounder, I think we're pretty well set on a starting five for a hardwood remake of The Longest Yard.

[SeattleIrish]

The comments of the father are particularly striking, as either his daughter was lying to him or he is complicit in enabling violence against his daughter.

As a father myself, I can't imagine sweeping this under the rug simply so a future in-law can potentially collect a big paycheck. Awful all the way around. :(

s.i.

[JasonEvans]

He just fractured her jaw in two places and it required surgery to repair. That's not that bad.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!!?

Whenever someone wonders why athletes think they can get away with anything, we all need only remember this story where the victim and her father were both begging for leniency because they were worried that the star player they had cuddled up to might get in trouble and not make his millions.

Pathetic.

My bet is that Dunn gets a fairly minor suspension from Baylor's team -- he misses just 2 or 3 games.

--Jason "and when Dickie V is doing a Baylor game (vs. Kansas perhaps), V will fall all over himself talking about what a wonderful kid Dunn is" Evans

[tommy]

I've seen plenty of run-ins with the law, and even violent crimes, but I can't remember 3 separate domestic violence related arrests of top level basketball players in this short of a time period. I wasn't really clear before, but I'm specifically referring to domestic violence. I can't remember this many instances this close to each other before.

This guy has done a fairly comprehensive cataloguing of arrests of college and pro athletes. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/jeff_benedict/09/08/athletes.crime/index.html

He reports that so far in 2010 -- year to date -- there have been 125 arrests involving basketball and football players. Women were the alleged victims in at least 22 of the incidents. That's almost 20 percent. 14 of these involved domestic violence. Keep in mind, this is only about 3/4 of one calendar year. And I know you were referring only DV, but the number of arrests involving robbery, assault, drugs, and guns exceed the DV numbers. Pretty depressing.

[amazinballer323]

So we have LaceDarius Dunn and Tre'Von Willis at guard, Lance Stephenson playing a wing forward (he may be a little undersized but I think we can make it work), and Tony Woods in at center. If the Michigan State sexual assault thing plays out right and we get a decent rebounder, I think we're pretty well set on a starting five for a hardwood remake of The Longest Yard.



With Pitino coaching?

[Atlanta Duke]

Sarcasm? It seems obvious to me that the woman and her father are trying to protect LaceDarius. LaceDarius and Lacharlesia (yes, that's her name) have a child together and if he gets kicked out of school and doesn't get to the NBA because of that, they are out of luck.

No kidding

The "explanations" in my last post that I highlighted were so ludicrous and contradictory (attorney admits his client punched the victim, albeit "only" once after she obviously deserved it since "she got up in his face arguing," while her father goes with the perfectly logical explanation that the jaw was broken while they were "just playing") I assumed everyone realized I was not buying it.

Then again, as a Pittsburgh Steelers fan I admit to being surprised how quickly all apparently has been forgiven by most fans as Ben Roethlisberger returns from his suspension.

Just win baby

[wacobluedevil]

He just fractured her jaw in two places and it required surgery to repair. That's not that bad.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!!?

Whenever someone wonders why athletes think they can get away with anything, we all need only remember this story where the victim and her father were both begging for leniency because they were worried that the star player they had cuddled up to might get in trouble and not make his millions.

Pathetic.

My bet is that Dunn gets a fairly minor suspension from Baylor's team -- he misses just 2 or 3 games.

--Jason "and when Dickie V is doing a Baylor game (vs. Kansas perhaps), V will fall all over himself talking about what a wonderful kid Dunn is" Evans

As a Duke grad and an employee at Baylor, I'll take that bet, Jason.

[Jderf]

More details from Jeff Goodman (http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/Baylor-star-guard-LaceDarius-Dunn--suspended-following-arrest-for-assault-100510): "She said it was an accident," Charles Edwards told FOXSports.com. "She said she sneaked up on him in the dark and he hit her by mistake. It wasn’t a fight at all."

It's pretty hard to reconcile that with the lawyer's version, where she "got up in his face arguing." Not sure what to believe just yet. Hopefully this all gets cleared up.

[CLW]

More details from Jeff Goodman (http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/Baylor-star-guard-LaceDarius-Dunn--suspended-following-arrest-for-assault-100510): "She said it was an accident," Charles Edwards told FOXSports.com. "She said she sneaked up on him in the dark and he hit her by mistake. It wasn’t a fight at all."

It's pretty hard to reconcile that with the lawyer's version, where she "got up in his face arguing." Not sure what to believe just yet. Hopefully this all gets cleared up.

Awaits explanation from their lawyer saying he "mis-remembered" his client's story about the "alleged" incident at issue.

EDIT: Drew will not "speculate" on Dunn's future with team.


http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5659092

[El_Diablo]

Awaits explanation from their lawyer saying he "mis-remembered" his client's story about the "alleged" incident at issue.

EDIT: Drew will not "speculate" on Dunn's future with team.


http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5659092

The ESPN article (linked above) was updated Friday and indicates that the university has suspended Dunn from attending classes. Pending a university hearing and decision, he is not allowed on campus.

[CameronBornAndBred]

If I were him I'd be tempted to get an agent and sign with a team overseas ASAP.

[slower]

As a Duke grad and an employee at Baylor, I'll take that bet, Jason.

At this point, Jason's prediction is looking pretty good.

[ACCBBallFan]

The ESPN article (linked above) was updated Friday and indicates that the university has suspended Dunn from attending classes. Pending a university hearing and decision, he is not allowed on campus.

Yes, Baylor's LaceDarius Dunn and Wake's Tony Woods are in the same spiral for similar offenses.

If suspended, they cannot attend class which would make them ineligible for second semester academically, unless they do some sort of impromtu quasi semester abroad, correspondence courses, whatever without technically transferring, and get credits that way plus university accepts those credits.

[Turtleboy]

At this point, Jason's prediction is looking pretty good.I don't know. If he's not even allowed on campus he might fall too far behind academically.

[wacobluedevil]

I don't know. If he's not even allowed on campus he might fall too far behind academically.

I'm feeling pretty good about my bet with Jason.

[ACCBBallFan]

Who says TX is tougher on crime than NC? Baylor folded, Wake did not.

http://gary-parrish.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6271764/25225017

[Duvall]

Who says TX is tougher on crime than NC? Baylor folded, Wake did not.

http://gary-parrish.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6271764/25225017

Looks like Evans might have been off with his estimate of a 2-3 game suspension after all. Dunn might not even miss a single practice.

[Kedsy]

I'm feeling pretty good about my bet with Jason.

Still feeling good?

[wacobluedevil]

Still feeling good?

Yeah, I am, and if any school (or fans thereof) should be cautious about making pronouncements about the alleged misdeeds of athletes prior to the conclusion of judicial proceedings, it should be Duke (can you say lacrosse?).

[Duvall]

Yeah, I am

Why?

[Kedsy]

Yeah, I am, and if any school (or fans thereof) should be cautious about making pronouncements about the alleged misdeeds of athletes prior to the conclusion of judicial proceedings, it should be Duke (can you say lacrosse?).

I wasn't making any pronouncements nor was I making a judgment about whether he was innocent or guilty. I was merely asking whether you still felt good about your bet.

[Duvall]

Looks like Evans might have been off with his estimate of a 2-3 game suspension after all. Dunn might not even miss a single practice.

As Baylor starts practice, Dunn's suspension is lifted (http://twitter.com/tsnmike/status/27375704357).

[wacobluedevil]

Why?

Good question actually. Only time will tell if my reasons are justified and my wager (though nothing is at stake) a wise one. I still believe that if it is determined that there was an assault Dunn will not receive a slap on the wrist as Jason suggested (not his terms), and if there was not, as judged by the appropriate authorities (hence the reference to the Duke lacrosse case), he will in due time be allowed to play. In the former case a slap on the wrist would be a travesty of justice, and in the latter, it would be an injustice.

[wacobluedevil]

I wasn't making any pronouncements nor was I making a judgment about whether he was innocent or guilty. I was merely asking whether you still felt good about your bet.

Point taken. I read something into your query that was not there.

[wacobluedevil]

As Baylor starts practice, Dunn's suspension is lifted (http://twitter.com/tsnmike/status/27375704357).

Evans made this comment, it seems to me, on the assumption that Dunn was guilty of an assault. What if it turns out not to be the case (lacrosse)?

[FireOgilvie]

Evans made this comment, it seems to me, on the assumption that Dunn was guilty of an assault. What if it turns out not to be the case (lacrosse)?

I think it's pretty clear that his girlfriend had surgery for a broken jaw. No one has said he didn't actually punch her in the face. There was an assault. He looks to be back on the team...

[wacobluedevil]

I think it's pretty clear that his girlfriend had surgery for a broken jaw. No one has said he didn't actually punch her in the face. There was an assault. He looks to be back on the team...

I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but the way it has been explained to me is an assault only takes place when there is intent to commit bodily harm (if that is incorrect or insufficient I would welcome elaboration or correction).

Actually, there have been multiple reports about what happened, much of it conflicting (what's the old saying about not believing everything you read in the papers?).

Two things about me: when it comes to men's basketball, I may work at Baylor, but as a Duke grad I bleed Prussian blue (yes, that the official shade) and white of Duke.

Second, if it was an assault (which has yet to be determined by the proper authorities), I want the full weight of the law to be brought to bear on the offender, and I believe that is what Baylor will do in this instance.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Waco certainly has a point here. Of all people, Duke fans should understand the phrase 'innocent until proven guilty'. Hell, Dunn breaking his girlfriend's jaw could have been like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8BmgFO30Uo (although even I think that is highly unlikely, but, hey, who am I to judge).

[Greg_Newton]

I'm sorry, but this is nothing like the lax case. I mean...


Police said Tuesday officers were dispatched on Sept. 27 to Hillcrest Baptist Medical Center where they found Edwards holding her son as she cried and spit up blood.

She told officers Dunn had hit her with a closed fist, “causing her extreme jaw pain,” but declined to provide a written statement and would only confirm orally that Dunn struck her, the affidavit said.

She required emergency surgery during which a plate with six screws was used to repair damage on the right side of the jaw and a second plate with eight screws to repair damage on the left side, the affidavit said.

According to the affidavit, Dr. Randall Smith told officers that to break both sides of her jaw would have required an extremely hard blow.

How is there even any gray area here? IMO, it's painfully obvious what happened and why she subsequently retracted her statements, and it's a shame how it's being handled.

(Source (http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/104365683.html))

[A-Tex Devil]

Baylor is in lots of trouble right now. Scott Drew flew by on his family name, but he has as bad a reputation among fellow coaches as Bruce Pearl. He is not Homer.

His assistant is currently being accused of texting the coach of a Colombian high school player playing high school ball in the midwest that if the kid doesn't commit to Baylor, he'll be back in Colombia in 12 months. Yeah....

This same assistant has already caused Baylor to self report texting violations throughout the dark period in July -- a time that EVERY SINGLE COACH knows is taboo. The NCAA is heading down to Waco now and dollars to donuts is that it won't be pretty when they leave.

I am frankly surprised LaceDarious is back considering Baylor the institution (as opposed to Baylor the athletic department). But if she retracted her statement, and they are all saying it's an accident now, I'll leave it to the police (unfortunately?) to decide if something needs to be done still.

[wacobluedevil]

I'm sorry, but this is nothing like the lax case. I mean...



How is there even any gray area here? IMO, it's painfully obvious what happened and why she subsequently retracted her statements, and it's a shame how it's being handled.

(Source (http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/104365683.html))

And of course, police reports are never wrong or inaccurate, are they?

[wacobluedevil]

Baylor is in lots of trouble right now. Scott Drew flew by on his family name, but he has as bad a reputation among fellow coaches as Bruce Pearl. He is not Homer.

His assistant is currently being accused of texting the coach of a Colombian high school player playing high school ball in the midwest that if the kid doesn't commit to Baylor, he'll be back in Colombia in 12 months. Yeah....

This same assistant has already caused Baylor to self report texting violations throughout the dark period in July -- a time that EVERY SINGLE COACH knows is taboo. The NCAA is heading down to Waco now and dollars to donuts is that it won't be pretty when they leave.

I am frankly surprised LaceDarious is back considering Baylor the institution (as opposed to Baylor the athletic department). But if she retracted her statement, and they are all saying it's an accident now, I'll leave it to the police (unfortunately?) to decide if something needs to be done still.

As for the other mess, if all that is being reported about this assistant is true (again, LACROSSE), then Scott Drew needs to be held accountable. It's his team, it's his assistant; if there's something there, having your assistant fall on his sword won't do.

[Duvall]

Waco certainly has a point here. Of all people, Duke fans should understand the phrase 'innocent until proven guilty'.

They should also understand how little that phrase has to do with the privilege of playing college basketball.

[Greg_Newton]

And of course, police reports are never wrong or inaccurate, are they?

What part of that could possibly be inaccurate? Certainly not the part about her saying he intentionally hit her, because her attorney "acknowledged that Dunn did indeed punch his client in the face one time after 'she got up in his face arguing'" (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5652481) even after she decided to drop the charges.

Did they just make up that 14 screws were put in her jaw? Her lawyer acknowledged that her jaw was broken in two places, and her doctor said Dunn would have had to punch her very hard to do that. Did they make up she was spitting up blood and holding her kid when they arrived?

This just seems like a pretty textbook case of domestic abuse to me.

[wacobluedevil]

What part of that could possibly be inaccurate? Certainly not the part about her saying he intentionally hit her, because her attorney "acknowledged that Dunn did indeed punch his client in the face one time after 'she got up in his face arguing'" (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5652481) even after she decided to drop the charges.

Did they just make up that 14 screws were put in her jaw? Her lawyer acknowledged that her jaw was broken in two places, and her doctor said Dunn would have had to punch her very hard to do that. Did they make up she was spitting up blood and holding her kid when they arrived?

This just seems like a pretty textbook case of domestic abuse to me.

And if you went by the initial reports in the LACROSSE case in Durham you would have made similar conclusions.

All I'm saying is, wait until the judicial process is completed.

[Merlindevildog91]

I was going to make the point on the Jay Mariotti post, but the same issues seem to have traveled over here.

DV cases are some of the most difficult cases to prosecute, and this matter highlights exactly why. Many, many times, for a variety of reasons, the story that is told to the police and the story that is told to the court are two (sometimes more) entirely different things. The best prosecutors can often hope for is anger management classes or substance abuse classes for the accused, and payment of medical reimbursement. Even that is often just a pipe dream.

The fact is, we don't know what happened with Lacedarius Dunn, and most likely we will never know what happened. The victim's story to the police differs from the story her attorney is telling, which is at variance with the story her father is telling (which, presumably, he heard from the victim, and as such could be used to impeach her testimony). At this point, if she's told all these different stories and doesn't want to go forward, don't be surprised if it all goes away. If that happens, don't think it's just because he's a college basketball player. It happens in domestic court every day. There may be ways to prosecute the case without her involvement (if the DA's office utilizes victimless prosecutions through 911 calls and other means) but don't stay up nights waiting for that to happen.

[throatybeard]

I wonder how many of these woman-beaters are doing steroids or similar.

[Jderf]

And if you went by the initial reports in the LACROSSE case in Durham you would have made similar conclusions.

All I'm saying is, wait until the judicial process is completed.

This, I think, is important. The bottom line is that we have conflicting reports. Is this a whitewash or a bizarre misunderstanding? Explanations for both sides can be constructed. So, really, we just don't know. Things look ugly (and they certainly may be), but all we can do is wait and hold judgement until more facts come to light. Hopefully, everything will get cleared up.

[wacobluedevil]

I was going to make the point on the Jay Mariotti post, but the same issues seem to have traveled over here.

DV cases are some of the most difficult cases to prosecute, and this matter highlights exactly why. Many, many times, for a variety of reasons, the story that is told to the police and the story that is told to the court are two (sometimes more) entirely different things. The best prosecutors can often hope for is anger management classes or substance abuse classes for the accused, and payment of medical reimbursement. Even that is often just a pipe dream.

The fact is, we don't know what happened with Lacedarius Dunn, and most likely we will never know what happened. The victim's story to the police differs from the story her attorney is telling, which is at variance with the story her father is telling (which, presumably, he heard from the victim, and as such could be used to impeach her testimony). At this point, if she's told all these different stories and doesn't want to go forward, don't be surprised if it all goes away. If that happens, don't think it's just because he's a college basketball player. It happens in domestic court every day. There may be ways to prosecute the case without her involvement (if the DA's office utilizes victimless prosecutions through 911 calls and other means) but don't stay up nights waiting for that to happen.

You're reasoning is sound save for the implied presumption (and if I'm attributing something to you that is not correct, please set the record straight) that Dunn is guilty of an assault.

In response let me say, first, if there is sufficient evidence to take this to trial (with or without her testimony), I say, prosecute it to the full extent of the law.

But in addition to the presumption of innocence (subliminal message: lacrosse) and allowing the judicial process to unfold properly, let me point to three anomalies in this case that, taken individually, do not put in doubt the suspicion that this was in fact an assault, but when taken together, do raise questions about what we've read in the "papers" thus far.

[wacobluedevil]

Edwards's father's defense of Dunn. When I first heard him come to Dunn's defense, and say that if he were not convinced of Dunn's innocence, he'd be the one in jail for assault, that made an impression on me. If my daughter's boyfriend (she is about the same age as Edwards) had hit her, my first impulse (and probably my second, third and fourth) would have been to grab a baseball bat and beat the &#%@##%$* out of him.

Of course, his account is one of the conflicting reports, plus there is the possibility (hard to believe, but not to be discounted out of hand) that he's selling his daughter down the river in the hopes of sharing in NBA bucks. If that's the case, all I can say is, that's cold.

[Duvall]

And if you went by the initial reports in the LACROSSE case in Durham you would have made similar conclusions.

All I'm saying is, wait until the judicial process is completed.

Wait for what? Would this mean that a player that has been arrested for a violent crime would not be suspended from the team or from school until the judicial process is completely resolved?

[wacobluedevil]

Police reports contain rather detailed accounts of what Edwards supposedly said to them at the hospital. At the same time we're being told by these same reports that she has a broken jaw that required extensive surgery. How does someone with this sort of injury also make verbal statements of the sort that she allegedly made to the police.

Of course, she could have written it down (but that's not what's in the reports), or some other explanation. Again by itself it may be explainable, but it is odd.

[wacobluedevil]

The conclusion of the university's Judicial Affairs Disciplinary Committee, which concluded after hearing from Edwards, Dunn and others, and reading the police reports, that Dunn was not guilty of assaulting a female which resulted in her jaw being broken.

(Again, as I understand it, the important question is whether there was an assault in this case, which as it has been explained to me requires intent to inflict bodily harm.)

Of course, this could be part of the giant conspiracy here at Baylor to whitewash the whole affair (I wish we could be so coordinated on other matters here). But I know some of the members of this committee, and I know that they would resign in a heartbeat rather than participate in any sort of cover-up. And while I am not privy to their deliberations, it is the first panel to hear the evidence and talk to the principals in the matter. And no, they have no legal authority, but they do have a legal advisor to consult as they deliberate.

Add these three anomalies to the normal presumption of innocence (lacrosse), and prudence dictates that this may, I repeat, may not be your garden variety domestic violence.

[Merlindevildog91]

I'm not presuming Dunn is guilty of anything, only using as my starting point the fact that he had been charged, and how hard these kinds of cases are. I learned long before the lacrosse case not to make assumptions. (Too bad Mike Nifong didn't figure that one out, isn't it?) In my jurisdiction, the police make the charges, we don't, though we can drop them, amend them, etc., if necessary.

I doubt Baylor is part of some greater conspiracy. I would expect the Judicial Affairs Disciplinary Committee did a careful review of information and testimony given. I don't know if they were privy to the hospital reports, which are oftentimes covered by HIPAA and can be a pain to retrieve absent a big-name defendant and $$. I also don't know how the hearsay rule is applied in DV cases in Texas, so any 911 calls and any medical reports made may or may not be admissible. (If there are any Texas lawyers in the house, feel free to enlighten us.)

But I agree entirely with wacobluedevil that there have been more questions brought up than answers given.

One other point. In the Texas Penal Code, and to be guilty of an assault, there does not have to be an intention of bodily harm. Sec.22.01(a) states "A person commits an offense if the person (1) intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly causes bodily injury to another,...." Aggravated assault requires assault under the above section, and "serious bodily injury to another...." Mere recklessness is enough.

[wacobluedevil]

I'm not presuming Dunn is guilty of anything, only using as my starting point the fact that he had been charged, and how hard these kinds of cases are. I learned long before the lacrosse case not to make assumptions. (Too bad Mike Nifong didn't figure that one out, isn't it?) In my jurisdiction, the police make the charges, we don't, though we can drop them, amend them, etc., if necessary.

I doubt Baylor is part of some greater conspiracy. I would expect the Judicial Affairs Disciplinary Committee did a careful review of information and testimony given. I don't know if they were privy to the hospital reports, which are oftentimes covered by HIPAA and can be a pain to retrieve absent a big-name defendant and $$. I also don't know how the hearsay rule is applied in DV cases in Texas, so any 911 calls and any medical reports made may or may not be admissible. (If there are any Texas lawyers in the house, feel free to enlighten us.)

But I agree entirely with wacobluedevil that there have been more questions brought up than answers given.

One other point. In the Texas Penal Code, and to be guilty of an assault, there does not have to be an intention of bodily harm. Sec.22.01(a) states "A person commits an offense if the person (1) intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly causes bodily injury to another,...." Aggravated assault requires assault under the above section, and "serious bodily injury to another...." Mere recklessness is enough.

Thank you for your clarification about the Texas code regarding assaults. Recklessness is another factor.

[BD80]

Police reports contain rather detailed accounts of what Edwards supposedly said to them at the hospital. At the same time we're being told by these same reports that she has a broken jaw that required extensive surgery. How does someone with this sort of injury also make verbal statements of the sort that she allegedly made to the police.

Of course, she could have written it down (but that's not what's in the reports), or some other explanation. Again by itself it may be explainable, but it is odd.

One can talk with a broken jaw. It is when the jaw is wired shut that it becomes very difficult to talk.

When I broke my jaw, I apparently was quite verbose (no shock to anyone who knows me). At least I believed I broke my jaw, now that I think about it, it could just have been a conspiracy to wire my mouth shut ... and then there was that petition to enjoin the dentist from removing the wires ... hmm ...

As for Dunn, given the admitted facts (I believe his lawyer's statements would constitute admissions) I cannot see how the kid can be allowed to play UNTIL the matter is resolved in his favor. He intentionally struck her, causing serious bodily injury (broken jaw requiring surgery).

Can someone someone offer a version of facts consistent with these admitted facts that exonerate Dunn?

[wacobluedevil]

One can talk with a broken jaw. It is when the jaw is wired shut that it becomes very difficult to talk.

When I broke my jaw, I apparently was quite verbose (no shock to anyone who knows me). At least I believed I broke my jaw, now that I think about it, it could just have been a conspiracy to wire my mouth shut ... and then there was that petition to enjoin the dentist from removing the wires ... hmm ...

As for Dunn, given the admitted facts (I believe his lawyer's statements would constitute admissions) I cannot see how the kid can be allowed to play UNTIL the matter is resolved in his favor. He intentionally struck her, causing serious bodily injury (broken jaw requiring surgery).

Can someone someone offer a version of facts consistent with these admitted facts that exonerate Dunn?

Two responses: First, I'm not trying to exonerate Dunn, only to counsel patience as the proper procedures play out; second, while admitting he did strike her it is disputed that it was intentional.

As for his being able to play, I suspect that as long as felony charges are pending, he will not be allowed to play.

[dbluedevil222]

I think all of you are forgetting the law. The question isn't whether or not Lacedarius Dunn did something wrong. Something very wrong. The question is whether or not the prosecution can do anything about it. The law is much grayer when it comes to personal assault where the victim A) does not want to press charges, B) lies about what happened. They could charge him, but a jury cannot legally convict a person for assaulting a victim when that victim is willing to go in front of the jury and say it's not true.

We saw a slightly different version at Wake, where the victim didn't seek charges, but did not go back and lie about what happened. Tony Woods suffered very little damage, legally speeking (100 hours is very light when it comes to breaking a weaker woman's spine). In this case, because he pleaded GUILTY, Wake Forest University decided to take matters into their own hands. While WFU should be commended for this decision, there is very little Baylor can do. If they were to take the same path, when Lacedarius Dunn wins a Not Guilty verdict, then he would be able to sue the University (equivalent to Duke kicking the Lax players out of school when they were acquitted, when they very clearly did something wrong (at least in behavior).

The victim is to blame (in a weird way). Her character/willpower is not strong enough to stand up for herself and do what's in her best interest. Frankly, regardless if a player promises to marry you and give you money, domestic abuse is very rarely a one-time thing. It's going to happen again... but until SHE decides to do something about it, the rest of us have to sit here and be appalled.

[duke09hms]

(equivalent to Duke kicking the Lax players out of school when they were acquitted, when they very clearly did something wrong (at least in behavior).


This part really annoys me. What exactly did our lacrosse players do wrong? Have a party with alcohol and strippers? PLEASE, this is college, sports teams at every school around the country do the same.

Sorry for digressing into the lacrosse topic, but this just forced me to set the record straight. I think this thread may be veering off-course with this talk about old hoaxes.

[Merlindevildog91]

A not guilty verdict only means Dunn would not be punished criminally. It wouldn't necessarily help him out a whole lot in a civil case, where the standards of proof are different. If you recall, OJ was acquitted of murder criminally, but still found civilly liable for the death of Ronald Goldman.

[El_Diablo]

A not guilty verdict only means Dunn would not be punished criminally. It wouldn't necessarily help him out a whole lot in a civil case, where the standards of proof are different. If you recall, OJ was acquitted of murder criminally, but still found civilly liable for the death of Ronald Goldman.

But a civil suit needs a plaintiff.

[tommy]

A jury cannot legally convict a person for assaulting a victim when that victim is willing to go in front of the jury and say it's not true.

The victim is to blame (in a weird way). . . until SHE decides to do something about it, the rest of us have to sit here and be appalled.

This is not correct. Unless the law is real different in Texas than it is anywhere I've been (which, it being Texas, I guess is possible) juries can absolutely convict a person for assault even if the victim goes into court and says it's not true. Happens all the time, especially in DV cases. Victims go into court and say either "I never told the police he assaulted me, the police are lying about that" or "I told the police that, but I was lying for the following reasons . . . "

Then the prosecutor can bring in the evidence that immediately after the incident she in fact stated that he had assaulted her, and the circumstances of that statement being made. They then add in things like 911 calls, statements of other witnesses, medical evidence, statements to medical treatment providers, etc. Good prosecutors in these types of cases also bring in expert witnesses on the subject of DV and battered wife/girlfriend syndrome to explain to the jury why women who are beaten often change the story or deny the story entirely once they get to court, how routine it is, why they do it, etc. Defendants are convicted all the time on these types of cases with a victim who made initial statements to police that she was beaten and by the time it gets to court she says "no, never happened." Routine.

This is part of the reason why Baylor being so quick to find Dunn "not guilty" is so appalling. The police investigation is apparently not even complete yet, but somehow Baylor has all it needs. Predictable, but appalling nevertheless. Move on, nothing to see here.

[Duvall]

Lacedarius Dunn's suspension to end after three regular season games (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5797276&campaign=rss&source=ESPNUHeadlines).

Looks like Evans had it right.

[slower]

Lacedarius Dunn's suspension to end after three regular season games (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5797276&campaign=rss&source=ESPNUHeadlines).

Looks like Evans had it right.

Much as many of us suspected. It's all about the benjamins, folks.

[JasonEvans]

Lacedarius Dunn's suspension to end after three regular season games (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5797276&campaign=rss&source=ESPNUHeadlines).

Looks like Evans had it right.

Sigh...

I hate being cynical... and right :(

--Jason "the notion that Baylor would be a beacon of honor and integrity was ludicrous" Evans

[wacobluedevil]

Sigh...

I hate being cynical... and right :(

--Jason "the notion that Baylor would be a beacon of honor and integrity was ludicrous" Evans

"Casey Sanders has had his day in court on assault charges and reached an agreement which should result in charges being dropped after six months.

"As part of the agreement, Sanders had to accept several conditions:
No criminal offenses other than minor traffic violations.
Stay in school or be employed full time.
Must not assault, threaten or harass any witnesses, including the victim.
He also has to get a substance abuse, mental health and domestic violence assessment by Dr. H. Keith Brodie and follow any suggestions Brodie makes.
Sanders was charged with assaulting his girlfriend on May 7. (<duke.scout.com/2/49844.html>)

Sauce, goose and gander?

[hurley1]

Much as many of us suspected. It's all about the benjamins, folks.

I wonder what Dunn's grades look like? Many times these types of crimes are committed on college campuses by people who should never be allowed there in the first place. Every coach should be like Coach K and you wouldn't have these types of problems.

[wacobluedevil]

I wonder what Dunn's grades look like? Many times these types of crimes are committed on college campuses by people who should never be allowed there in the first place. Every coach should be like Coach K and you wouldn't have these types of problems.

What crime? Whose suspension? Which coach and university? Sanders had his day in court; Dunn has not (the DA refuses to move one way or the other on what is by all indications the same charge). Sanders by all indications did not receive any suspension for his crime.

[hurley1]

What crime? Whose suspension? Which coach and university? Sanders had his day in court; Dunn has not (the DA refuses to move one way or the other on what is by all indications the same charge). Sanders by all indications did not receive any suspension for his crime.

I have 3 daughters from 16 - 23. People like me easily see the crime in his actions. You don't touch a woman. Nobody has ever touched one of mine, and they better not.

[CEF1959]

What crime? Whose suspension? Which coach and university? Sanders had his day in court; Dunn has not (the DA refuses to move one way or the other on what is by all indications the same charge). Sanders by all indications did not receive any suspension for his crime.

The charges against Casey Sanders were dropped. There never was a conviction. And I think we can distinguish between Casey Sanders (grabbed his girlfriend by the arm and pushed her against a wall, causing no injuries) and LaceDarius Dunn (punched his girlfriend in the face hard enough to break her jaw and require surgery).

Dunn will likely never be prosecuted, because the victim won't press the issue. She may be lying when she says (now) it was an accident. I don't know, but she has a huge incentive to lie. All I know is that Dunn's attorney said LaceDarius had punched her "after she got up in his face." Why would he say that about his own client if it weren't the case? The story only changed once the Dunn and Edwards families got their (income-protecting) story together. That's a pretty important distinction between this case and other famous cases of patently false accusations.

I predict this won't be the last time we hear about LaceDarius Dunn in connection with domestic violence.

Question: If a guy is caught on videotape in August shooting someone, is arrested for murder, but pleads not-guilty, does he play basketball for your team all season pending his trial that won't happen until summer? Not my team. The presumption of innocence is a criminal law concept that doesn't require a basketball coach to ignore common sense and the facts in front of him.

[wacobluedevil]

The charges against Casey Sanders were dropped. There never was a conviction. And I think we can distinguish between Casey Sanders (grabbed his girlfriend by the arm and pushed her against a wall, causing no injuries) and LaceDarius Dunn (punched his girlfriend in the face hard enough to break her jaw and require surgery).

Dunn will likely never be prosecuted, because the victim won't press the issue. She may be lying when she says (now) it was an accident. I don't know, but she has a huge incentive to lie. All I know is that Dunn's attorney said LaceDarius had punched her "after she got up in his face." Why would he say that about his own client if it weren't the case? The story only changed once the Dunn and Edwards families got their (income-protecting) story together. That's a pretty important distinction between this case and other famous cases of patently false accusations.

I predict this won't be the last time we hear about LaceDarius Dunn in connection with domestic violence.

I'm amazed at the omniscience that you and others on this website, most of whom are hundreds and even thousands of miles away, have about this case. You know why the DA hasn't brought the case to the grand jury (even though he has said absolutely nothing about it); you know in the midst of multiple and conflicting accounts what did in fact happen (amazing, since you were not there); you know that no person's jaw has ever been injured by accident, always by assault; you know that the disciplinary committee at Baylor was fixed or ignorant or duped. Amazing.

And the charges were dropped in Sanders' case because he pled out to deferred prosecution, and in spite of the arrangement was never suspended by Duke for even one game, and yet you have the chutzpah to claim the moral high ground for Duke (which is my school too).

Amazing.

[CEF1959]

I'm amazed at the omniscience that you and others on this website, most of whom are hundreds and even thousands of miles away, have about this case. You know why the DA hasn't brought the case to the grand jury (even though he has said absolutely nothing about it); you know in the midst of multiple and conflicting accounts what did in fact happen (amazing, since you were not there); you know that no person's jaw has ever been injured by accident, always by assault; you know that the disciplinary committee at Baylor was fixed or ignorant or duped. Amazing.

And the charges were dropped in Sanders' case because he pled out to deferred prosecution, and in spite of the arrangement was never suspended by Duke for even one game, and yet you have the chutzpah to claim the moral high ground for Duke (which is my school too).

Amazing.

I know that LD's lawyer admitted that his client punched her in the face, and that her jaw was broken seriously enough to require surgery. The rest is conjecture, yes. Maybe his lawyer was lying to get his own client in trouble.

[wacobluedevil]

I know that LD's lawyer admitted that his client punched her in the face, and that her jaw was broken seriously enough to require surgery. The rest is conjecture, yes. Maybe his lawyer was lying to get his own client in trouble.

That was not Dunn's lawyer (sorry to confuse you with the facts, but then again you don't seemed to be worried about the proper adjudication of such things) but Edwards' lawyer, and of course you are able to say with absolutely certainty that one statement, out of all the other conflicting statements, obviously puts the matter correctly.

On the off chance that you are interested in what she said through her lawyer, this is what she said:

"My family and I are deeply disturbed about the misinformation and half truths that are being reported by media regarding the incident with my boyfriend. He has never struck me during our long-term relationship. What happened on the night of September 27 was an accident and I went to the hospital for precautionary reasons.

"I never expressed any interest in pressing charges nor will I in the future press charges on this incident. I am fine and my jaw is not broken as is being reported. My family and I wish to put this situation behind us. Lace and I will continue our relationship and raising our son in a good environment. I respectfully request that the District Attorney's Office dismiss these charges, and further request that Baylor University lift their suspension."

[roywhite]

Sigh...

I hate being cynical... and right :(

--Jason "the notion that Baylor would be a beacon of honor and integrity was ludicrous" Evans


"Casey Sanders has had his day in court on assault charges and reached an agreement which should result in charges being dropped after six months.

"As part of the agreement, Sanders had to accept several conditions:
No criminal offenses other than minor traffic violations.
Stay in school or be employed full time.
Must not assault, threaten or harass any witnesses, including the victim.
He also has to get a substance abuse, mental health and domestic violence assessment by Dr. H. Keith Brodie and follow any suggestions Brodie makes.
Sanders was charged with assaulting his girlfriend on May 7. (<duke.scout.com/2/49844.html>)

Sauce, goose and gander?

Jason made his post nearly 6 weeks ago. What prompted this response?

I don't see what Casey Sanders has to do with this. Feel free to tell us what you know about Lacedarious Dunn, but I hope you can avoid switching the topic to scolding Duke fans.

[wacobluedevil]

Jason made his post nearly 6 weeks ago. What prompted this response?

I don't see what Casey Sanders has to do with this. Feel free to tell us what you know about Lacedarious Dunn, but I hope you can avoid switching the topic to scolding Duke fans.

First of all, I am a Duke graduate and avid fan, so don't lecture me on scolding Duke fans.

Second, the reminder of the Casey Sanders case in the Little thread brought me back to Jason "holier-than-most anybody" Evans' crowing about "the notion that Baylor would be a beacon of honor and integrity was ludicrous."

Finally, way too many people have judged Dunn and Baylor guilty without a trial, while at the same time asserting that Duke would never engage in such actions. I simply brought it back up to set the record straight.

[Greg_Newton]

That was not Dunn's lawyer (sorry to confuse you with the facts, but then again you don't seemed to be worried about the proper adjudication of such things) but Edwards' lawyer, and of course you are able to say with absolutely certainty that one statement, out of all the other conflicting statements, obviously puts the matter correctly.

On the off chance that you are interested in what she said through her lawyer, this is what she said:

"My family and I are deeply disturbed about the misinformation and half truths that are being reported by media regarding the incident with my boyfriend. He has never struck me during our long-term relationship. What happened on the night of September 27 was an accident and I went to the hospital for precautionary reasons.

"I never expressed any interest in pressing charges nor will I in the future press charges on this incident. I am fine and my jaw is not broken as is being reported. My family and I wish to put this situation behind us. Lace and I will continue our relationship and raising our son in a good environment. I respectfully request that the District Attorney's Office dismiss these charges, and further request that Baylor University lift their suspension."

So are you saying you honestly believe Dunn never hit his girlfriend? Just want to clarify.

[SMO]

First of all, I am a Duke graduate and avid fan, so don't lecture me on scolding Duke fans.

I don't understand this response. Because you're a Duke graduate and avid fan you are above reproach?

Aside from that, I am interested in what you know about the case and I am a big believer in the presumption of innocence. Can you enlighten us further on what you know?

[FireOgilvie]

That was not Dunn's lawyer (sorry to confuse you with the facts, but then again you don't seemed to be worried about the proper adjudication of such things) but Edwards' lawyer, and of course you are able to say with absolutely certainty that one statement, out of all the other conflicting statements, obviously puts the matter correctly.

On the off chance that you are interested in what she said through her lawyer, this is what she said:

"My family and I are deeply disturbed about the misinformation and half truths that are being reported by media regarding the incident with my boyfriend. He has never struck me during our long-term relationship. What happened on the night of September 27 was an accident and I went to the hospital for precautionary reasons.

"I never expressed any interest in pressing charges nor will I in the future press charges on this incident. I am fine and my jaw is not broken as is being reported. My family and I wish to put this situation behind us. Lace and I will continue our relationship and raising our son in a good environment. I respectfully request that the District Attorney's Office dismiss these charges, and further request that Baylor University lift their suspension."

From the ESPN article with those quotes:

"Darling acknowledged that Dunn did indeed punch his client in the face one time after 'she got up in his face arguing.'"

"Darling said he believed the case merited nothing more than a misdemeanor charge against Dunn based on the injuries his client sustained. He said she suffered "two minor fractures in her jaw" that were treated with "minor day surgery." He said there was minor swelling and that her jaw was not wired shut, and reports of loose or missing teeth were inaccurate."

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5652481

I'm confused... why would her lawyer make those statements if Dunn never punched her and she never had surgery?

[roywhite]

First of all, I am a Duke graduate and avid fan, so don't lecture me on scolding Duke fans.

Second, the reminder of the Casey Sanders case in the Little thread brought me back to Jason "holier-than-most anybody" Evans' crowing about "the notion that Baylor would be a beacon of honor and integrity was ludicrous."

Finally, way too many people have judged Dunn and Baylor guilty without a trial, while at the same time asserting that Duke would never engage in such actions. I simply brought it back up to set the record straight.

I really don't understand why you want to pick a fight here.

You are continually venting on Duke and Duke fans here. Strange.

Rage on if you like. Maybe we'll see Baylor in the tournament; catch you then.

[COYS]

Rage on if you like. Maybe we'll see Baylor in the tournament; catch you then.

Agreed. Until then, enjoy this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMb7qzqFnNU).

[-jk]

I think there's a reasonable parallel between Sanders and Dunn's behavior.

Sanders was never a star, though, and so the assumption that he was being protected isn't quite as strong.

Since both cases involve facts we'll likely never know with any certainty, passing judgments from press clippings is a bit tricky.

We are strong enough to withstand a bit of scrutiny or soul searching. Let's keep it civilized, though. (Man, Jan 2nd can't get here soon enough!)

-jk

[wacobluedevil]

I really don't understand why you want to pick a fight here.

You are continually venting on Duke and Duke fans here. Strange.

Rage on if you like. Maybe we'll see Baylor in the tournament; catch you then.

If you think I raging against Duke and Duke fans (which would mean that I am raging against myself), you're sadly mistaken. I am simply pointing out to a few on this board (including a certain moderator) that they are invoking a double standard when it comes to Dunn and Baylor.

I pulled this thread back up when I read the following on the thread discussing Kansas's Mario Little having been arrested and suspended for allegedly assaulting his girlfriend: "Kansas suspends him 'indefinitely'. I hope this means they are going to kick him off the team when the facts are sorted out. I hope "indefinitely" doesn't mean a short suspension, and then bring him back in plenty of time for their title run. At least Wake Forest had the decency to handle it that way with Woods (contrasted with the pat on the wrist approach of Baylor with Dunn). Makes me proud to cheer for Duke players who usually follow the rule not to behave in ways that are detrimental to themselves (Duke players also have better reasons to be out "indefinitely")."

The same poster then wrote: "it's unbelievable a university would have players representing their school with their name across the jersey and behaving that way off the court. If players like Dunn and Little can get away with that kind of behavior, then "apologize" and be suspended for a few games, what kind of message does that send? It says these schools are condoning the beating of women, battery charges, and hooliganism as long as the players are good enough to help them win. Winning is being prioritized above values and character. That is very sad."

I then recalled Jason Evans' statement that "the notion that Baylor would be a beacon of honor and integrity was ludicrous." Implied in that statement, coming as it did on a Duke site, is that that sort of behavior would never happen at Duke, but if it did Duke and Coach K would handle it very differently.

Well, it did happen at Duke with Casey Sanders, who pled to deferred prosecution in 2002 after being charged with assaulting his girlfriend, at the end of which the charges were dropped. That next season, Sanders was not suspended even for one game. Does that mean that "the notion that Duke is a beacon of honor and integrity is ludicrous"? I certainly don't think that, but if I followed the logic of Evans I would need to.

What do I know? someone asks. Legally, almost nothing, nor does anyone else. We can all speculate till the cows come home (whether honestly or out of a sense of Schadenfreude), but unless or until the DA does something, none of us can speak intelligently about what happened. Anyone who claims to know what happened with information gleaned from media reports is talking from an orifice other than his mouth.

I do know members of the Disciplinary Committee here at Baylor, and though I do not know what happened in the hearing they held, I do trust their judgment that an assault did not take place (which is not to say that he did not strike her, only that he did not intend to inflict grievous bodily harm or exercise culpable negligence).

[BoozerWasFouled]

What do I know? someone asks. Legally, almost nothing, nor does anyone else. We can all speculate till the cows come home (whether honestly or out of a sense of Schadenfreude), but unless or until the DA does something, none of us can speak intelligently about what happened. Anyone who claims to know what happened with information gleaned from media reports is talking from an orifice other than his mouth.


This board typically has very stringent rules about drawing conclusions on the basis of rumors, innuendo, and speculation. I have always assumed that those rules applied to all posters but looking at some of the speculation and hasty conclusions in this thread I realize that I am wrong. Some people appear to be allowed to float speculation...

You are right waco to draw a comparison to Casey Sanders. Of course, as you know, many Duke fans have an inflated sense of moral superiority. Some think that everyone associated with Duke's program is a saint, and that everyone else in the world is corrupt.

[sagegrouse]

.............
I then recalled Jason Evans' statement that "the notion that Baylor would be a beacon of honor and integrity was ludicrous." Implied in that statement, coming as it did on a Duke site, is that that sort of behavior would never happen at Duke, but if it did Duke and Coach K would handle it very differently.

Well, it did happen at Duke with Casey Sanders, who pled to deferred prosecution in 2002 after being charged with assaulting his girlfriend, at the end of which the charges were dropped. That next season, Sanders was not suspended even for one game. Does that mean that "the notion that Duke is a beacon of honor and integrity is ludicrous"? I certainly don't think that, but if I followed the logic of Evans I would need to.

What do I know? someone asks. Legally, almost nothing, nor does anyone else. We can all speculate till the cows come home (whether honestly or out of a sense of Schadenfreude), but unless or until the DA does something, none of us can speak intelligently about what happened. Anyone who claims to know what happened with information gleaned from media reports is talking from an orifice other than his mouth.
I do know members of the Disciplinary Committee here at Baylor, and though I do not know what happened in the hearing they held, I do trust their judgment that an assault did not take place (which is not to say that he did not strike her, only that he did not intend to inflict grievous bodily harm or exercise culpable negligence).

Wacobluedevil:

When you brought up Casey Sanders as a case where Duke may have acted improperly, as Gabby Hayes used to say, "Them's fighting words." (Or maybe it was Yosemite Sam.) Sanders's incident occurred after the season was over, and since Sanders was hardly integral to anything about Duke basketball (10.6 mpg, 2.5 ppg) most of us presumed that Duke had acted fairly, since the matter was fully resolved by the courts by time the season started. Maybe we should have been tougher on Duke, but I thought that no suspension was warranted. Had it occurred just before or during the season, I think I would have had a different view.

There may have been some rumor and innuendo re Dunn, but the incident and the immediate aftermath were reported in articles in the reputable press (AP, SI, ESPN, mostly based on police reports). Most of us took that at face value, and your boldfaced comment is unfortunate. At the time of the incident, many of us whooped with derisive laughter over a big star apparently battering his girlfriend to the point of a fractured jaw and then she and HER father stepping in to say that it was her fault, not the, er, meal ticket's. That was so ludicrously corrupt to this father of four daughters that I certainly joined in. While I don't think the DBR comments were necessarily fair and even-handed about Dunn, Baylor, Coach Drew, or Ken Starr, I don't think they were not inappropriate for a fan site, especially directed against a formidable rival like Baylor.

Now your comments on this thread began with betting against Jason Evans that there would be only a short suspension, where, in fact, Jason was right. In the post immediately after it was clear that Jason was right, you then dredged up the Casey Sanders incident to throw back at him and other Duke fans on the DBR. Haven't you said enough on this thread, and isn't it time to give it a rest?

sagegrouse

[SuperTurkey]

I don't think they were not inappropriate for a fan site

If my parsing of triple negatives is correct, you do think the comments were inappropriate. Or am I not the opposite of incorrect? ;)

[sagegrouse]

If my parsing of triple negatives is correct, you do think the comments were inappropriate. Or am I not the opposite of incorrect? ;)

"I think they were appropriate for a fan site." My error.

sagegrouse
'And thanks for reading all the way to the bottom of the second para.'

[El_Diablo]

Okay. The following are facts, as described in the police report and reported by a bar-certified attorney to reputed media outlets.

Fact: Dunn punched her in the face.
Fact: It was in the course of an argument.
(Inference A: Dunn intended to hit her.)
(Inference B: It was an accident.)
Fact: It caused two fractures in her jaw.
Fact: Dunn is playing basketball for Baylor again.

Wacobluedevil, you may choose to believe Inference B, in which case Dunn and Baylor are probably above moral reproach in this matter. Fine. But others may choose to believe Inference A, in which case neither Dunn nor Baylor is above moral reproach. I personally tend to lean towards A, since I have been involved in or witnessed many arguments, and none of them have ended up with an accidental face strike that fractured the other person's jaw in two places. But maybe some confluence of factors came together to make it happen, then caused her to change her story after the fact, and none of those factors relate to Dunn's earning power for her or for the school. In which case Inference B is entirely plausible.

Although it still doesn't really explain why Dunn was suspended at all...I mean if it was an accident, then it was accident. Right? Yet even after the woman recanted and an investigation was conducted, Baylor still suspended him for three games. Why? Either Baylor thinks accidents should be punishable offenses, or they determined that he did something wrong but decided let it slide for some reason. I really can't see the rationale behind taking the 3-game "middle ground" here...and I would genuinely welcome any insights or alternative explanations you have on this. I admit that I might have misjudged the situation and would be more than willing to change my mind if you've got something else.

But dragging red herrings into it doesn't necessarily change my view of what happened. And you cannot rationally dispute the above facts without calling into question the integrity of those who reported them. Did she initially lie to both police and her lawyer for some reason? Were the police and her lawyer lying? Did the reporters change the story as it was reported to them? I'll admit that all of those are possible. But if you are willing to challenge facts on that level, then we can't really have a meaningful discussion about anything...including what happened with Casey Sanders a decade ago.

[hurley1]

Okay. The following are facts, as described in the police report and reported by a bar-certified attorney to reputed media outlets.

Fact: Dunn punched her in the face.
Fact: It was in the course of an argument.
(Inference A: Dunn intended to hit her.)
(Inference B: It was an accident.)
Fact: It caused two fractures in her jaw.
Fact: Dunn is playing basketball for Baylor again.

Wacobluedevil, you may choose to believe Inference B, in which case Dunn and Baylor are probably above moral reproach in this matter. Fine. But others may choose to believe Inference A, in which case neither Dunn nor Baylor is above moral reproach. I personally tend to lean towards A, since I have been involved in or witnessed many arguments, and none of them have ended up with an accidental face strike that fractured the other person's jaw in two places. But maybe some confluence of factors came together to make it happen, then caused her to change her story after the fact, and none of those factors relate to Dunn's earning power for her or for the school. In which case Inference B is entirely plausible.

Although it still doesn't really explain why Dunn was suspended at all...I mean if it was an accident, then it was accident. Right? Yet even after the woman recanted and an investigation was conducted, Baylor still suspended him for three games. Why? Either Baylor thinks accidents should be punishable offenses, or they determined that he did something wrong but decided let it slide for some reason. I really can't see the rationale behind taking the 3-game "middle ground" here...and I would genuinely welcome any insights or alternative explanations you have on this. I admit that I might have misjudged the situation and would be more than willing to change my mind if you've got something else.

But dragging red herrings into it doesn't necessarily change my view of what happened. And you cannot rationally dispute the above facts without calling into question the integrity of those who reported them. Did she initially lie to both police and her lawyer for some reason? Were the police and her lawyer lying? Did the reporters change the story as it was reported to them? I'll admit that all of those are possible. But if you are willing to challenge facts on that level, then we can't really have a meaningful discussion about anything...including what happened with Casey Sanders a decade ago.

Im just an old common sense guy that has an education, but, I was also raised in a S.C. mill town where fighting was a way of life. When you hit someone with your fist hard enough to break their jaw, you are trying to do collateral damage. Broken jaws from fights do not happen by accident, they happen from an all out assault where the force from the lick is all you have got. No accident here fellows, he was trying to knock this girls head off. If you came up fighting, like me, you would know this all too well. I can't believe some of the lame excuses I am reading here. There is no excuse for a male to hit a female with this kind of force. It's simply a criminal act.

[arnie]

Okay. The following are facts, as described in the police report and reported by a bar-certified attorney to reputed media outlets.

Fact: Dunn punched her in the face.
Fact: It was in the course of an argument.
(Inference A: Dunn intended to hit her.)
(Inference B: It was an accident.)
Fact: It caused two fractures in her jaw.
Fact: Dunn is playing basketball for Baylor again.

Wacobluedevil, you may choose to believe Inference B, in which case Dunn and Baylor are probably above moral reproach in this matter. Fine. But others may choose to believe Inference A, in which case neither Dunn nor Baylor is above moral reproach. I personally tend to lean towards A, since I have been involved in or witnessed many arguments, and none of them have ended up with an accidental face strike that fractured the other person's jaw in two places. But maybe some confluence of factors came together to make it happen, then caused her to change her story after the fact, and none of those factors relate to Dunn's earning power for her or for the school. In which case Inference B is entirely plausible.

Although it still doesn't really explain why Dunn was suspended at all...I mean if it was an accident, then it was accident. Right? Yet even after the woman recanted and an investigation was conducted, Baylor still suspended him for three games. Why? Either Baylor thinks accidents should be punishable offenses, or they determined that he did something wrong but decided let it slide for some reason. I really can't see the rationale behind taking the 3-game "middle ground" here...and I would genuinely welcome any insights or alternative explanations you have on this. I admit that I might have misjudged the situation and would be more than willing to change my mind if you've got something else.

But dragging red herrings into it doesn't necessarily change my view of what happened. And you cannot rationally dispute the above facts without calling into question the integrity of those who reported them. Did she initially lie to both police and her lawyer for some reason? Were the police and her lawyer lying? Did the reporters change the story as it was reported to them? I'll admit that all of those are possible. But if you are willing to challenge facts on that level, then we can't really have a meaningful discussion about anything...including what happened with Casey Sanders a decade ago.

I think you are missing the perspective from Baylor's standpoint. They were in the Southwest conference for years and now in the Big 12. The allegations against Dunn are very minor from their viewpoint. Until he actually murders someone and a crowd of 100 witnesses it, don't expect any further discipline.

[JG Nothing]

Okay. The following are facts, as described in the police report and reported by a bar-certified attorney to reputed media outlets.

Fact: Dunn punched her in the face.
Fact: It was in the course of an argument.
(Inference A: Dunn intended to hit her.)
(Inference B: It was an accident.)
Fact: It caused two fractures in her jaw.
Fact: Dunn is playing basketball for Baylor again.



Ever read the original police report from the Duke lacrosse case? It would not surprise me if Dunn had hit his girlfriend, but still....

[hurley1]

dunn and baylor bite the dust.......

[ricks68]

I think you are missing the perspective from Baylor's standpoint. They were in the Southwest conference for years and now in the Big 12. The allegations against Dunn are very minor from their viewpoint. Until he actually murders someone and a crowd of 100 witnesses it, don't expect any further discipline.

I guess the last time that happened at Baylor, just a few years ago, because there were less than 100 witnesses, the program was still considered above reproach-----not.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baylor_University_basketball_scandal

(I know it is a wikipedia [not entirely reliable] link, but methinks the defender of Baylor's brand of ethics doth protest too much.

ricks

[Greg_Newton]

Ever read the original police report from the Duke lacrosse case? It would not surprise me if Dunn had hit his girlfriend, but still....

No offense, but this argument is getting a little old. It's like people think the Duke lacrosse case automatically exonerates anyone accused of anything, no matter how different the situation.

Common sense enters the equation somewhere. Are you willing to use the same argument to insist OJ Simpson's innocence?

[El_Diablo]

Ever read the original police report from the Duke lacrosse case? It would not surprise me if Dunn had hit his girlfriend, but still....

Yeah, I addressed that scenario (lying victim) in my post. So if you or wacobluedevil or anyone else want to accuse Lacharlesla of initially fabricating the whole story to the police and her lawyer, then by all means go ahead and do it rather than tapdance around the issue. I wouldn't necessarily hold it against you. I mean, she's changed her story, and it can't all be true.

But was she telling the truth initially and lying now? Or was she lying initially and telling the truth now? I can see why she would change the story to cover up an assault and protect her gravy train; it happens all the time in domestic violence cases. But I can't see why she would suffer some accident in the midst of an argument, then lie about it initially to police and her lawyer, then "come clean" and admit that he didn't really punch her. Either he hit her (and she's covering it up) or he didn't hit her (and she somehow got injured and lied about the cause to the police). Reasonable people could believe either version I guess, but Baylor apparently didn't determine it was the latter, though, since they still decided to suspend him...which means they think he did something wrong there. Given her previous statements and her fractured jaw, us commoners can only speculate as to what that wrongdoing was.

So excuse me for being cynical here, but in the absence of any other rational explanation, what exactly does Baylor expect us to think?

[hurley1]

Yeah, I addressed that scenario (lying victim) in my post. So if you or wacobluedevil or anyone else want to accuse Lacharlesla of initially fabricating the whole story to the police and her lawyer, then by all means go ahead and do it rather than tapdance around the issue. I wouldn't necessarily hold it against you. I mean, she's changed her story, and it can't all be true.

But was she telling the truth initially and lying now? Or was she lying initially and telling the truth now? I can see why she would change the story to cover up an assault and protect her gravy train; it happens all the time in domestic violence cases. But I can't see why she would suffer some accident in the midst of an argument, then lie about it initially to police and her lawyer, then "come clean" and admit that he didn't really punch her. Either he hit her (and she's covering it up) or he didn't hit her (and she somehow got injured and lied about the cause to the police). Reasonable people could believe either version I guess, but Baylor apparently didn't determine it was the latter, though, since they still decided to suspend him...which means they think he did something wrong there. Given her previous statements and her fractured jaw, us commoners can only speculate as to what that wrongdoing was.

So excuse me for being cynical here, but in the absence of any other rational explanation, what exactly does Baylor expect us to think?

if you look at the history of criminal acts by college athletes that get covered up, nothing is hard to believe.......look at derrick watson when he was at south carolina......he repeatedly got into trouble and nothing was done.....he was driving around in a new caddillac escalade and nothing was done.......he quit going to classes the day after football season ended and returned to play the next year......the duke lacrosse thing is different.......this was a business arrangement that went bad...who knows what happened there....the lesson for duke lacrosse players is " if you lay down with dogs you get up with fleas "........dunn was beating up citizens in their own homes........2 entirely different worlds in the universe of common sense........the law has created so many excuses for those who get special priviledges that it has crippled it's ability to prosecute.......people get away with all kinds of crimes in america every day.......even murder......i know of 2 athletes that got away with murder......one killed 2 people.......is anybody really surprised that dunn is getting away scott free.......people get pressured to change their story......they also get paid to do so.........we live in a very corrupt society, and lawers can share alot of the blame.......

[gam7]

if you look at the history of criminal acts by college athletes that get covered up, nothing is hard to believe.......look at derrick watson when he was at south carolina......he repeatedly got into trouble and nothing was done.....he was driving around in a new caddillac escalade and nothing was done.......he quit going to classes the day after football season ended and returned to play the next year......the duke lacrosse thing is different.......this was a business arrangement that went bad...who knows what happened there....the lesson for duke lacrosse players is " if you lay down with dogs you get up with fleas "........dunn was beating up citizens in their own homes........2 entirely different worlds in the universe of common sense........the law has created so many excuses for those who get special priviledges that it has crippled it's ability to prosecute.......people get away with all kinds of crimes in america every day.......even murder......i know of 2 athletes that got away with murder......one killed 2 people.......is anybody really surprised that dunn is getting away scott free.......people get pressured to change their story......they also get paid to do so.........we live in a very corrupt society, and lawers can share alot of the blame.......

Which athletes do you "know" killed people?

[slower]

Common sense enters the equation somewhere. Are you willing to use the same argument to insist OJ Simpson's innocence?

Dunn has vowed to find the REAL culprit for his girlfriend's broken jaw.

[JG Nothing]

No offense, but this argument is getting a little old. It's like people think the Duke lacrosse case automatically exonerates anyone accused of anything, no matter how different the situation.

Common sense enters the equation somewhere. Are you willing to use the same argument to insist OJ Simpson's innocence?

I never said Dunn should be exonerated; I even said it would not surprise me if he was guilty. I simply implied that people should be cautious at this point. I don't think that is very unreasonable. Why not wait until it all shakes out one way or the other before making definitive judgments?


As for OJ Simpson, I have heard all the evidence presented in the trial. I suspect most of us have not heard all the evidence in Dunn's case.

[hurley1]

I never said Dunn should be exonerated; I even said it would not surprise me if he was guilty. I simply implied that people should be cautious at this point. I don't think that is very unreasonable. Why not wait until it all shakes out one way or the other before making definitive judgments?


As for OJ Simpson, I have heard all the evidence presented in the trial. I suspect most of us have not heard all the evidence in Dunn's case.

and you never will........that's the problem........these universities tamper with the wittnesses and pay them off and completely get the real facts changed around........it's a disgrace......i preferr to use my 52 years of common sense and what is obviously right or wrong.......busting in a woman"s home and hitting her and breaking her jaw........no excuse in my book........none......

[JBDuke]

This discussion is going nowhere productive, and is in danger of opening old wounds, therefore, I am closing this thread.