WOW! Major new development in Carolina football scandal

[JasonEvans]

Ok, this is really (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=cr-uncagents092910), really serious stuff.


Prominent NFL agent Gary Wichard and former University of North Carolina assistant football coach John Blake have engaged in multiple financial transactions since May of 2007, a four-month investigation by Yahoo! Sports has found.

If this proves to be true, Carolina will be in major trouble. Having one of your coaches also working to actively send players to a specific agent is big time bad.


Wichard denied any impropriety between himself and Blake. He also denied that Blake was ever previously employed by Pro Tect Management, despite a brochure obtained by Yahoo! Sports which listed Blake as the vice president of football operations for the agency and described his duties.

The investigation has found several instances of Pro Tect sending large sums of money to Blake over the past couple years... while he was a coach at UNC.

--Jason "if true, this is gonna land Carolina on probation" Evans

[JasonEvans]

This was a major enough development that I decided to not merge this with the existing Carolina thread (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?21778-NCAA-Investigating-UNC-Athletic-Program)on the scandal. We may merge the threads later.

-Jason "mod much?" Evans

[Lord Ash]

I support the non-merger. There comes a time when most folks just ignore 100+ page threads and then miss out on big news.

That is pretty crazy news. Could Carolina football get shut down for a bit over this? I don't know how serious they take these things...

[DukeSean]

If this is all true, what kind of probation do you think would be appropriate? What are some similar cases that have happened in college football, if any?

[Olympic Fan]

I support the non-merger. There comes a time when most folks just ignore 100+ page threads and then miss out on big news.

That is pretty crazy news. Could Carolina football get shut down for a bit over this? I don't know how serious they take these things...

There is almost no chancde that UNC football will get the death penalty. But if the new information is verified by the NCAA, it would almost certainly mean a severe NCAA penalty (probation and loss of scholarships) for the program. A coach conspiriong with an agent and receiving payoffs from him while on a school's staff?

And if Elaine Marshall is really invesrigating the case and not just grandstanding for the publicity, then it could means heavy fines for both Blake and Wilchard for violating the NC agent laws.

There's also a chance it could leave to criminal charges -- the false receipt provided to the secretary of state -- again if confirmed -- could be construed as obstruction of justice or even to criminal copnsiracy, which could easily mean jail time.

One thing this information means that we probably suspected anyway is that Marvin Austin will never play college football again.

[4decadedukie]

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6270202/24930145

To briefly synopsize the CBS Sports piece (which, apparently, is largely based on a Yahoo report):
- A financial connection between North Carolina assistant John Blake and veteran NFL agent Gary Wichard has been established.
- Wichard apparently has paid Blake large amounts of money over an extended period.
- Additionally, a credit card owned by a Pro Tect Management (Wichard's firm) was issued in Blake's name.
- Blake resigned from UNC earlier this month.
- Wichard and Blake are being investigated by both the NCAA and Secretary of State (for possible agent tampering of college athletes).
- The story indicates that there were at least six wire transfers from Wichard's private bank to Blake.
- Blake also received a $45,000 loan from that bank,
- Critically, this could be the first-ever case of a major-college football coach being a "runner" for an agent.

If these allegations are true, UNC-CH is in VERY SERIOUS trouble (with the NCAA, and I would also suggest with senior North Carolina officials).

PS: I too support the thread non-merger decision; good call.

[4decadedukie]

That is pretty crazy news. Could Carolina football get shut down for a bit over this? I don't know how serious they take these things...

1) I don't know if UNC Football will be suspended or terminated by the NCAA.
2) However, if this series of allegations is true, there certainly will MAJOR sanctions by the NCAA and (I suspect) by North Carolina (potentially including criminal proceedings).
3) Further, I am absolutely convinced of one thing, Butch Davis is toast. UNC-CH has too much institutional pride -- and its stature is too important to the State's leadership -- to tolerate this sort of illicit activity by an Assistant Coach, ESPECAILLY WHEN THE MORE-SERIOUS OFFENSE OF WIDESPREAD TEAM ACADEMIC FRAUD is added to the program’s unethical behavioral problems.

[JasonEvans]

One has to wonder if Blake knew this was coming when he resigned a couple weeks ago. I would suspect that he knew journalists were sniffing around his financial ties to Pro Tect/Wichard. He certainly knew he had gotten around $100-grand from Wichard in the past few years. He may have figured the best way to spare Butch's career would be for him to proactively resign. Certainly Blake will never work in college coaching again.

I think Davis will offer to resign again over this. Will Carolina take him up on it this time around?

Also, there is no way Carolina gets the death penalty for this. Even if it came out that Davis and others knew about it and tried to cover it up, I still doubt the NCAA would dream of shutting the program down. But, I suspect we will see a couple seasons of bowl bans and 10-20 reduced scholarships.

--Jason "all of this is absurdly premature. We've seen other investigations lead to nothing" Evans

[Skitzle]

My wish?

Ty Lawson linked to tutor, named academically ineligible for the 2008-2009 season. All wins revoked...

[Indoor66]

If this is all true, what kind of probation do you think would be appropriate?

Raze every building in chapel hill and salt the earth.

[devildeac]

Raze every building in chapel hill and salt the earth.

#1-Too expensive. Sure we could find SOME other use for the buildings.
#2-Why should the rest of us suffer?
;)

[moonpie23]

Raze every building in chapel hill and salt the earth.

now, now now.....let's not get ahead of ourselves....



i couldn't possibly be over there until at least 1pm....


http://ui32.gamespot.com/479/702headbanginstick_2.gif

[roywhite]

Steve Spurrier didn't have much good to say about John Blake and his reputation in these comments a few weeks ago (http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/08/10/spurrier-on-uncs-blake-its-hard-to-hide-whatever-your-reputation-is/)


Perhaps because his program has become a part of this agent mess, Spurrier stepped into the way-back machine, channeled the Ol' Ball Coach, and took a subtle hatchet to Blake's reputation around the coaching community as only he can. Or used to be able to.

"When you've been in coaching as long as I have, we know the reputation of almost all the coaches that have been around a long time," Spurrier said Tuesday. "We all have a reputation, especially guys who've coached 20 years or so. It's hard to hide whatever your reputation is."

[wilko]

As much as I hope UNC implodes over this and their entire fanbase is left wearing a "Kick me I a Cheater" sign... a strange notion occurs to me.

UNC is at a crossroads.
They need to decide whether they want to be an SEC school (in spirit at least). Is it ok to be good in Football forsaking Academic Integrity and respect? They need to answer that for themselves.

I think it would be silly to think that UNC is the ONLY school doing this type of shenanigans. Other schools just do it better and dont get caught.

I think there is a larger debte.
Can a school have be a top flight football program without cheating?

Look at the rest of the ACC. We are lightly regarded in football as a whole. Is that a statement about not attracting top talent? What does attract top talent?
I'd have to vote for hot girls, parties and cash under the table as opposed to going to class and studying.

I'm leaning toward the conclusion its becoming increasingly unlikely (close to impossible) to have a top flight football program w/o some level of cheating. If it can happen at UNC it can happen anywhere.

It might be time to look in the mirror and have the NFL develop its own farm system, one thats not dependant on guys in college. Deflate the money out of the college game or pay the players. Something needs to change.

[OldPhiKap]

UNC: The University of North Clemson.





(and I agree with the non-merger -- after something hits 10 pages, if I didn't catch the thread early then I rarely get to it. Time for a new Austin Rivers thread as well, FWIW. All except the 2010 NC thread, of course . . . .).

[superdave]

The NCAA and NFL (all pro sports leagues for that matter) need to to ban agents for a year if caught tampering with undeclared student-athletes. Also, coaches and players would earn a year as well for their misdeeds. Take away their livelihood! Anything short of collaboration between the NCAA and the pros is un-serious about the issue.

I really dont take pleasure in watching Carolina head towards probation. It's bad for the league and hurts a lot of good kids over there. I'd rather them go 0-12 because all recruits think that shade of blue is ugly!

[A-Tex Devil]

This really comes as no surprise....

Predicted from July 19th (http://barkingcarnival.fantake.com/2010/07/19/the-north-carolina-agent-fiasco-the-john-blake-stain/).

There are lots of guys like John Blake in college football and basketball. Ed Orgeron comes to mind. These guys can recruit wherever they go because they can promise connections. Why can they promise connections? Because they have relationships with agents.

"Look -- if you come here, I know people. We'll have you evaluated early, I'll ask my NFL friends [read: agents] what you project at right now [read: blow smoke up your...], and after your freshman year [read: more smoke]. If you want to make the NFL, you need to come here if you want to know the right people sooner than later."

[Slackerb]

The most embarrassing thing, IMO, is that they haven't been winning lately..and have been cheating.

At least be good if you are going to cheat, like USC.

[OldPhiKap]

He certainly knew he had gotten around $100-grand from Wichard in the past few years.

Assuming that's true, I wonder if he disclosed this on his federal or state taxes. The Secretary of State may be the least of his problems.



The sad part is (and this is truly sad): of the two scandals gong on over there, this is the milder of the two. Widespread, systematic academic fraud -- if true -- is a more serious blow to the institution than turning a blind eye to a agent runner.

[budwom]

I like the fact that one of the lawyers involved is trying to claim that Blake wasn't trying to steer players to the agent. Most interesting. So the agent sends a bunch of cash and loans to Blake simply because he's generous? No quid pro quo? Just quid for quid I guess.

Lots of nice coverup stuff, too. All in all one can only hope that the indiscretions continue to be publicized, and Blake et al continue to try to lie their way out of it.
This strategy worked really well for Martha Stewart and Dick Nixon, and should continue to bear fruit for the Holes.

[whereinthehellami]

There is some more smoke and rumors on Packpride (Braak is the poster) about some more news coming out over the next few weeks involving Little and another sport (possibly baseball). UNC is in it deep, it looks like massive fallout. Packpride has been interesting to follow during the UNC cheating/scandals.

[DownEastDevil]

Looks like not only did Marvin Austin get to stay in a nice hotel while in LA, but he also got to look at some of those high price movies they show in hotels.;)
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=ys-uncdocs092910

[BD80]

I like the fact that one of the lawyers involved is trying to claim that Blake wasn't trying to steer players to the agent. Most interesting. ...

Read his lips. There is NO EVIDENCE that Blake steered players to the agent.

The lawyer isn't stupid, we all know Blake did it, there is just no direct evidence that it happened.

I would love for Blake to cut a deal for complete immunity and then blow carolina up.

[JasonEvans]

I just got done listening to an interview on one of the local Atlanta sportsradio stations with Dave Glenn of the ACC Sports Journal. It speaks volumes to the seriousness of the UNC scandal that an Atlanta station spent 20 minutes talking about it on the radio at 10am.

Most of you probably know who Dave Glenn is. He is a journalist who has covered ACC sports and especially the North Carolina teams for many, many years. I am not sure if he is a UNC homer, like some local journalists, but he is certainly not known a a Carolina-hater. He is definitely plugged in.

Among the things Dave Glenn said --

It is no longer a question whether Butch Davis will survive at UNC. The only questions are when he will be relieved of his duties (Dave thinks they will wait until the season is over) and if he will be fired or allowed to resign. If he is fired, that will mean that Carolina is trying to not pay him anything let on his contract. If he resigns that will mean they have reached a financial settlement. Dave thinks it depends upon the wording of Butch's contract as to whether Carolina is going to be able to fire him for cause.

Dave pointed out that Butch Davis was not really hired by Baddour or the University president. Davis' hiring was engineered by some very prominent Carolina boosters who wanted to take the program to the "next level." Baddour and the school went along with it, but it is not like they were instrumental in making the Davis hire. These boosters sunk serious money into Davis and the football program. Glenn says there could be serious financial implications for Carolina as the mess these boosters made is cleaned up by Baddour and the University Administration. He said Carolina risks alienating some of their most significant athletic boosters and some of the only ones willing to pony up big money for the football program.

Glenn said that he has spoken to a lot of other schools and other coaches about the Carolina problems. The other coaches all say they sympathize with Carolina about the academic scandal. Dave says that others acknowledge that a "rouge student tutor" could do this same thing at just about any school in the country. But, other programs have zero sympathy about the John Blake/agent scandal. He says everyone knows that Blake was a sketchy dude with a history of breaking the rules in recruiting. Glenn says plenty of other programs are thrilled Carolina got caught and say Carolina deserved this.

Dave said the investigation by the state attorney general was going to get very serious. He said it was very possible that Blake and Miles Austin could end up in jail!

Lastly, Glenn spent the final few minutes of the interview talking about potential penalties. He said there was no question that Carolina would get major penalties, though he did not speculate what they might be. He pointed out that the NCAA's new President Mark Emmert has spoken openly about harsher penalties under his administration and he really wants to crack down on agents in college sports. Glenn said it was very possible that the NCAA would seek to "send a message" with the penalties they hand down at UNC. USC's recent penalties were much harsher than folks had expected. Glenn said we would likely see harsher than expected penalties at UNC unless Carolina can convince the NCAA that it was cooperating and was serious about cleaning house. He talked a bit about whether Carolina might get hit with the very serious "lack of institutional control" violation.


I looked it up a few minutes ago and found this story (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=5572636) that talks about new NCAA Prez Emmerrt cracking down on agents. Emmert formally takes office in the next few days. Carolina and UConn basketball will likely be the first major programs to face penalties under his watch. If he wants to send a message, the penalties for the Tar Heels and Huskies could be severe.

--Jason "if I was Carolina, I would fire Davis right now and announce self-imposed penalties (like not going to a bowl this year) in the hope of getting off easier when the NCAA brings down the hammer" Evans

[BigZ]

just hoping this somehow is going to their basketball program as well.

[A-Tex Devil]

I looked it up a few minutes ago and found this story (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=5572636) that talks about new NCAA Prez Emmerrt cracking down on agents. Emmert formally takes office in the next few days. Carolina and UConn basketball will likely be the first major programs to face penalties under his watch. If he wants to send a message, the penalties for the Tar Heels and Huskies could be severe.

--Jason "if I was Carolina, I would fire Davis right now and announce self-imposed penalties (like not going to a bowl this year) in the hope of getting off easier when the NCAA brings down the hammer" Evans

First -- Butch Davis was not known as a sketchy coach when UNC hired him. He was the guy brought into Miami after Erickson left and SI called for them to drop their football program. He cleaned that program up significantly at the cost of wins.

But hiring Blake was playing with fire if not outright stupid. Blake has his avid supporters that have scoured the internet to defend him (read the comments in the article I linked above as even one example), but even they have to be backing off now.

But to the quoted point -- when conference expansion fizzled out, it did not go unnoticed immediately after that all of the sudden the NCAA was getting more serious with agents, etc. There has always been a feeling that, especially in the SEC, relationships like Blake's and Wichard's (and I understand that is in the ACC) are prevalent. If you read Andy Katz's article after the Big XII decided to stay together, it references a "college sports illuminati" which basically talked the Big XII teams into staying out and slowing down the move to 4 16 team conferences at least for now. Moving to these super-conferences very likely meant the beginning of the end of the NCAA as a governing body of college football.

There is a theory, and it is gaining momentum, that the Big Ten and the Big Twelve put the breaks on major realignment after receiving assurances from the NCAA that it would crack down on agents. And if you look at the punishments being doled out now versus the ones in 2009 and previous, it is obvious that the NCAA is going to have a more Roger Goodell approach.

Hell, AJ Green was wrongly accused of being at an agent party in Miami by TMZ, but it caused the NCAA to investigate, they saw a $1,000 credit in his bank account, he told them he sold his jersey -- to someone they consider an agent. 4 games gone. Wow.

I am all for the crackdowns, but I also find the timing interesting.

[OldPhiKap]

--Jason "if I was Carolina, I would fire Davis right now and announce self-imposed penalties (like not going to a bowl this year) in the hope of getting off easier when the NCAA brings down the hammer" Evans

A great conclusion from a very informative post. Thanks, Jason.

The Carolina brass has to be thinking about whether an early sacrifice of Davis will help. I don't see how keeping him around can be viewed favorably by the NCAA.

I would not be surprised if Davis "decides to resign" in the next few days or weeks, with an arranged package.

[mph]

UNC is taking decisive action (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=5621596).


Kelly Mehrtens has resigned as athletic director at North Carolina-Wilmington.

Sourced close to the situation also expect UNC-Charlotte and UNC-Ashville to be placed on self-imposed probation.

[DevilWearsPrada]

It's just scandalous!!! Glad it is over in Chapel Thrill and not Durham. Wonder what all the Ram's Clubs members & alum are thinking about now? Was it worth wanting an ACC title or Bowl championship? To put such a bad mark on ACC football and UNC as an academic institution.

Another day, another scandal breaking UNC story. Wonder what today will bring, besides rain here in NC? I am sure the skies are dreary GRAY in Chapel Thrill. Its sad for all the student athletes who do not cheat, and are there to compete in sports and get their college degrees. Very few compete on the Professional level. And I feel for those students, that have had to endure this Scandal. And put up with Coaches that have little to no character or intergrity to compete the right way and play by the NCAA rules.

[devildeac]

UNC is taking decisive action (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=5621596).



Sourced close to the situation also expect UNC-Charlotte and UNC-Ashville to be placed on self-imposed probation.

Any word about Cleveland State or any of the "directional" Tennesee or Kin-tucky schools yet?;)

[throatybeard]

It's seems they're treating this as fairly significant news:

http://www.tarheelfanblog.com/2010/09/hey-baddour-that-light-you-saw-was-a-thermonuclear-detonation/

[whereinthehellami]

Thanks Jason for the Dave Glen notes. Very interesting. The booster angle could be huge. I would hate to be one the 3 stooges right now (Baddour, Thorpe, Davis).

[RelativeWays]

just hoping this somehow is going to their basketball program as well.

I kinda don't. I'd rather beat the sheep on the court and not have to hear the excuses from the sheep faithful that
a) The NCAA was out to get UNC no matter what (I'm sure they believe that now)
b) K was behind it all because he was scared of Huckleberry.

It'll also smudge the integrity of the rivalry, could potentially create animosity between UNC and other ACC schools and give birth to rogue "sports journalists" who are UNC grads that will do anything to dig up dirt on their rivals for payback. Football is enough for me.

[A-Tex Devil]

Butch Davis was a great hire for UNC at the time. He had pedigree, and assembled championship football teams at the college and pro level (as an assistant in the latter). The juggernaut 2001-2002 Hurricanes were mostly his doing and they brought a swagger back to the U without the rap sheet.

He got greedy, went to the pros, and was submarined as many coaches are by a mistake at QB (a mistake EVERY team would have made re: Tim Couch, by the way).

He gets the UNC job, and everything looks rosy. I would not be surprised at all if he knew nothing about the Blake/Wichard relationship or had reason to suspect his nanny was writing papers for the players. All that being said.... lie down/dogs/fleas, etc.

The fall is stunning, but should reinforce people in all professions that who you put around you is ultimately your responsibility.

[OldPhiKap]

Butch Davis was a great hire for UNC at the time. He had pedigree, and assembled championship football teams at the college and pro level (as an assistant in the latter). The juggernaut 2001-2002 Hurricanes were mostly his doing and they brought a swagger back to the U without the rap sheet.

He got greedy, went to the pros, and was submarined as many coaches are by a mistake at QB (a mistake EVERY team would have made re: Tim Couch, by the way).

He gets the UNC job, and everything looks rosy. I would not be surprised at all if he knew nothing about the Blake/Wichard relationship or had reason to suspect his nanny was writing papers for the players. All that being said.... lie down/dogs/fleas, etc.

The fall is stunning, but should reinforce people in all professions that who you put around you is ultimately your responsibility.

I agree with everything you say, except adding in the link somewhere above from Spurrier suggesting everyone in coaching knew about Blake. If Butch was in the dark, it seems that he was perhaps putting his head in the sand.

Who knows.

[JasonEvans]

Here is an interesting follow-up article (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=dw-agents093010)that talks about the now out-of-date notion of "street agents" as guys in parking lots. The reality is that they are now assistant coaches and folks who actually have an influence on the athletes.


While few get into college coaching to steer players to agents, there is so much easy money available, and for the most part all of the agents are reputable and capable (it’s not like you’re giving bad advice), the temptation is overwhelming. If you’re a position coach at a big-time school, you churn out first rounders on a near annual basis. For an agent, that’s an ideal runner – someone with recurring influence over star players, not a one-and-done deal.

So it’s neither rare nor a secret that college coaches work as runners.

What’s rare is that one would actually get caught.

The article goes on to specifically address why the Carolina case is so significant--


For the NCAA, it’s far less embarrassing if the runner is that stereotypical shadowy figure. Coaches and athletic department officials can feign knowledge, even if the facts say otherwise. College sports can blame outsiders for ruining their game. People such as Saban – who had a player caught in the periphery of this case – can grandstand and call them pimps.

If the runner is working 80-hour weeks in the football or basketball office, there’s no one to blame. That’s the potential groundbreaking nature of this case – a widespread practice potentially finally coming to light. Blake isn’t some fringe character.

There is much, much more there. Some of it may be brutally difficult for a Carolina fan to read.


If UNC is guilty, the NCAA should be highly motivated to make an example of the Tar Heels’ program. It hits too close to home for anything but a significant response. The NCAA simply can’t tolerate coaches as runners. They need to use this case to at least attempt to scare people straight.

Does that mean the so-called “Death Penalty?” No. Only one program, SMU football, has ever received that penalty. While its technically always on the table for the NCAA infractions committee, UNC is not a repeat offender, is said to be cooperating fully and may be able to place all blame on a single coach.

Significant sanctions, likely even harsher than applied to Southern California this year (30 lost scholarships, two-year bowl ban), would be called for though. UNC lacks the tradition and recruiting base of USC, which makes recovering from penalties difficult. So this could feel like a death penalty for the Tar Heels.

--Jason "I suggest everyone read the article-- it really is eye-opening" Evans

[A-Tex Devil]

Here is an interesting follow-up article (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=dw-agents093010)that talks about the now out-of-date notion of "street agents" as guys in parking lots. The reality is that they are now assistant coaches and folks who actually have an influence on the athletes.




Also -- for more on the next generation street agent, Google Bryce Brown and Brian Butler. This is the new form of street agent. They get to these kids in high school. Some schools have learned to deal with them, other schools will basically stop recruiting 5 star talent if a guy like Brian Butler is in the picture.

[stillcrazie]

I corresponded with him a year or so ago. He's from Philly and is not a fan in particular of any of the local teams. I enjoyed the correspondence and thought he was as smart and honest as he is on his radio show.

[A-Tex Devil]

I agree with everything you say, except adding in the link somewhere above from Spurrier suggesting everyone in coaching knew about Blake. If Butch was in the dark, it seems that he was perhaps putting his head in the sand.

Who knows.

I agree, Butch, is absolutely to blame..... "you knew it was a snake when you picked it up, so don't be surprised when it bites you." The metaphors could go on for days.

[sandinmyshoes]

Blake was not just an assistant coach, he was the "associate head coach" and recruiting director.

But I'm not sure I see how Austin can end up in jail, unless he's lied under oath or something. The agents can violate licensing rules, but a student getting benefits?

I kind of feel for all the players on the team who didn't cheat. They just had another one cleared. The kid missed four games even though he didn't do anything (or they couldn't prove that he did).

[Gthoma2a]

If the AD knew about it, could this be a, I forget the term, but culture of cheating that gets the whole school (not just one sport) sanctioned?

[sagegrouse]

Blake was not just an assistant coach, he was the "associate head coach" and recruiting director.

But I'm not sure I see how Austin can end up in jail, unless he's lied under oath or something. The agents can violate licensing rules, but a student getting benefits?

I kind of feel for all the players on the team who didn't cheat. They just had another one cleared. The kid missed four games even though he didn't do anything (or they couldn't prove that he did).

Well, Austin could pull a Martha Stewart and insist on speaking with the authorities to tell his side of the story. The result for Martha was that she got sent to jail for lying to the feds. Her stock transaction, based on a tip from a broker, was never pursued and was probably not illegal.

sagegrouse

[OldPhiKap]

If the AD knew about it, could this be a, I forget the term, but culture of cheating that gets the whole school (not just one sport) sanctioned?

I think you're looking for "lack of institutional control" -- which would be hard for me to believe. But since the allegations mentioned in these articles haven't been proved yet, it's hard for me to figure what (if anything) lies beyond.

One thing I do know -- the microscopes and magnifying glasses are going to flyspeck the whole system over there.

[camion]

It's looking like they may need to throw Butch under the bus to minimize NCAA penalties. Luckily they have an expert bus-thrower-underer just down the hall.

Seriously though, I hope this is trouble limited in scope at UNC. Despite hating them enthusiastically I don't actually hate them and don't want NC and ACC schools to take a big hit. I guess we'll see in the coming months.

[Highlander]

It's looking like they may need to throw Butch under the bus to minimize NCAA penalties. Luckily they have an expert bus-thrower-underer just down the hall.

Seriously though, I hope this is trouble limited in scope at UNC. Despite hating them enthusiastically I don't actually hate them and don't want NC and ACC schools to take a big hit. I guess we'll see in the coming months.

I know it's been said before, but I'm just floored at how much the scales of justice have flipped in a year. Last year at this time I was in the doldrums over HB picking reigning national champion UNC, and doubting that Duke could maybe make it past the sweet 16 for the first time in what felt like forever with no proven post presence.

In the last year UNC has..
- been critically panned for throwing out an opposing fan during a basketball game.
- Missed the NCAA tournament for only the second time in recent history
- lost 2 players to transfer
- lost another player to the draft
- involved in a cheating scandal with the football team
- lost an assistant football coach due to financial ties to an agent
- had 12 football players suspended for various violations
- lost Austin Rivers to their biggest rival
- is poised to lose their head football coach and experience some serious sanctions.

Meanwhile, Duke has
- Won the ACC Tournament
- Tied for the ACC Regular season title
- Swept UNC in basketball, including a 30 point drubbing in Cameron
- Won the National Championship
- Watched as their head coach won the FIBA World Championship with a team of NBA also-rans.
- Signed Austin Rivers, the #1 recruit in next year's class
- Kept two key players for their senior year rather than lose them early to the draft

Other than Duke's football woes, it's been sunny skies for Duke ever since last season began. Part of me feels sorry for UNC. It's a very, very, very small part though :)

[Devilsfan]

Like my friend from Iowa says, "sometimes you have to burn the barn down to get rid of the rats".

[oldnavy]

I agree with everything you say, except adding in the link somewhere above from Spurrier suggesting everyone in coaching knew about Blake. If Butch was in the dark, it seems that he was perhaps putting his head in the sand.

Who knows.

It doesn't matter if he DID know, it was his job TO know. He is without excuse and has to go!

[CameronBornAndBred]

Caulton Tudor gives his 2 cents..says if Davis doesn't resign, the school needs to fire him.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/09/30/712304/tudor-uncs-butch-davis-must-go.html


It's reasonable to ask why Davis did not know more about former associate head coach John Blake's relationship with sports agent Gary Wichard. The notion that Davis didn’t know and had no reason to be suspicious of Blake’s connections to an agent has become hollow. Even if it’s true, it’s inexcusable.

[Indoor66]

Caulton Tudor gives his 2 cents..says if Davis doesn't resign, the school needs to fire him.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/09/30/712304/tudor-uncs-butch-davis-must-go.html

Yeah, we call that felony stupid!

[DevilHorns]

I know it's been said before, but I'm just floored at how much the scales of justice have flipped in a year. Last year at this time I was in the doldrums over HB picking reigning national champion UNC, and doubting that Duke could maybe make it past the sweet 16 for the first time in what felt like forever with no proven post presence.

In the last year UNC has..
- been critically panned for throwing out an opposing fan during a basketball game.
- Missed the NCAA tournament for only the second time in recent history
- lost 2 players to transfer
- lost another player to the draft
- involved in a cheating scandal with the football team
- lost an assistant football coach due to financial ties to an agent
- had 12 football players suspended for various violations
- lost Austin Rivers to their biggest rival
- is poised to lose their head football coach and experience some serious sanctions.

Meanwhile, Duke has
- Won the ACC Tournament
- Tied for the ACC Regular season title
- Swept UNC in basketball, including a 30 point drubbing in Cameron
- Won the National Championship
- Watched as their head coach won the FIBA World Championship with a team of NBA also-rans.
- Signed Austin Rivers, the #1 recruit in next year's class
- Kept two key players for their senior year rather than lose them early to the draft

Other than Duke's football woes, it's been sunny skies for Duke ever since last season began. Part of me feels sorry for UNC. It's a very, very, very small part though :)

I agree with the sentiment of your post obviously, but this is not true:

"Watched as their head coach won the FIBA World Championship with a team of NBA also-rans." There were some serious studs on that team (not as loaded as the olympics definitely, but studs nonetheless).

[kong123]

First, I am not a big football fan. I do not follow the Heels closely and I know a little bit about the scandal. Having said that, I have been asked to post in this thread from a UNC fans perspective. The only perspective I can give you is the general mood over on IC. It appears that things are worse than anyone could have ever imagined. The NCAA will be on campus either this week or next to meet with officials. The sky is truly falling on the football side of things. Way worse than it did last year for the BBall team. The coach has to be fired. WAY too many things going on. He cannot be responsible for everything little thing concerning a football team, but he is the head of the football program and the head must be cut off. Its sad. UNC fans have always wanted to have a top-notch football program. My dad was really excited about Butch's presence and the direction the program was headed in. He died in July of 09. Luckily he didn't see the BBall season last year and he didn't see the Football scandal this year. It would have really disappointed him. In the famous words of Forrest Gump, "well, that's all I gots to say about that"

[CPDUKEGUY24]

UNC is taking decisive action (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=5621596).



Sourced close to the situation also expect UNC-Charlotte and UNC-Ashville to be placed on self-imposed probation.

Link? Source? Is this mere speculation?

[Bob Green]

Link? Source? Is this mere speculation?

The post was a joke.

[SuperTurkey]

First, I am not a big football fan. I do not follow the Heels closely and I know a little bit about the scandal. Having said that, I have been asked to post in this thread from a UNC fans perspective. The only perspective I can give you is the general mood over on IC. It appears that things are worse than anyone could have ever imagined. The NCAA will be on campus either this week or next to meet with officials. The sky is truly falling on the football side of things. Way worse than it did last year for the BBall team. The coach has to be fired. WAY too many things going on. He cannot be responsible for everything little thing concerning a football team, but he is the head of the football program and the head must be cut off. Its sad. UNC fans have always wanted to have a top-notch football program. My dad was really excited about Butch's presence and the direction the program was headed in. He died in July of 09. Luckily he didn't see the BBall season last year and he didn't see the Football scandal this year. It would have really disappointed him. In the famous words of Forrest Gump, "well, that's all I gots to say about that"

Thank you for your post, and I'm sorry for your loss.

[CPDUKEGUY24]

The post was a joke.

clearly

[OldPhiKap]

First, I am not a big football fan. I do not follow the Heels closely and I know a little bit about the scandal. Having said that, I have been asked to post in this thread from a UNC fans perspective. The only perspective I can give you is the general mood over on IC. It appears that things are worse than anyone could have ever imagined. The NCAA will be on campus either this week or next to meet with officials. The sky is truly falling on the football side of things. Way worse than it did last year for the BBall team. The coach has to be fired. WAY too many things going on. He cannot be responsible for everything little thing concerning a football team, but he is the head of the football program and the head must be cut off. Its sad. UNC fans have always wanted to have a top-notch football program. My dad was really excited about Butch's presence and the direction the program was headed in. He died in July of 09. Luckily he didn't see the BBall season last year and he didn't see the Football scandal this year. It would have really disappointed him. In the famous words of Forrest Gump, "well, that's all I gots to say about that"

Always appreciate the view from "the other side" of anything, including our rivalry. Thanks for posting, and sorry for your loss. -- OPK

[kingboozer]

nah, nah, nah, nah... nah, nah, nah, nah HEY HEY HEY, BUTCH IS GONE!

despite whatever our record is, this makes me happy that we have Coach Cut

[camion]

The post was a joke.

But Cleveland State is still nervous.

[OldPhiKap]

Just got back from IC. Apparently, this is all Matt Doherty's fault.

[devildeac]

Just got back from IC. Apparently, this is all Matt Doherty's fault.

Couldn't possible be. Gotta be K's fault.:rolleyes:

[oldnavy]

Just read where the UNC brass are still defending Butch Davis. I think I understand why they are doing this, but I believe it is a BIG mistake. They would be better off in the long run to cut him loose sooner versus later IMO.

Maybe Butch is a good guy, but he made a colossal mistake by hiring Blake and now he has to pay for it. I do not think that this will have much of an impact on him landing another high profile job however. There are plenty of “football” schools out there that would love to have him.

[roywhite]

Just read where the UNC brass are still defending Butch Davis. I think I understand why they are doing this, but I believe it is a BIG mistake. They would be better off in the long run to cut him loose sooner versus later IMO.

Maybe Butch is a good guy, but he made a colossal mistake by hiring Blake and now he has to pay for it. I do not think that this will have much of an impact on him landing another high profile job however. There are plenty of “football” schools out there that would love to have him.

Maybe they want to get through the current season before making a change, but I agree that Butch is fatally wounded by this scandal.

[4decadedukie]

Just read where the UNC brass are still defending Butch Davis. I think I understand why they are doing this, but I believe it is a BIG mistake. They would be better off in the long run to cut him loose sooner versus later IMO.

Maybe Butch is a good guy, but he made a colossal mistake by hiring Blake and now he has to pay for it. I do not think that this will have much of an impact on him landing another high profile job however. There are plenty of “football” schools out there that would love to have him.


I wholeheartedly agree.

Furthermore, Davis actually made two "colossal mistakes." The first, as you indicated, was employing Blake, who, after all, did not have a stellar ethical record. The second was his neglect in providing the leadership, the inspiration, the direction, and the oversight to ensure Blake operated in an appropriate manner.

Obviously, there are also two reason Davis might have failed to do these things: (a) he is foolish, stupid, or lazy and (b) he wanted his Associate Head Coach and Chief Recruiter to do whatever was required -- including unethical actions -- to produce winning football talent immediately. I do not believe "a" is credible. Davis almost certainly was willfully ignorant of Blake's actions. The "possibly, more stringent new NCAA disciplinary approach" will find that to be a serious matter; even worse, UNC, the State of North Carolina, and the "Tarheel elite" (who have great influence) will find it intolerable for UNC-CH's reputation, which they use so frequently to bolster their personal stature.

By mid-2011, Butch Davis has a greater probability of being Santa Clause than of being UNC's Head Football Coach.

[whereinthehellami]

The bottom line to me is that Davis is the head coach of a school that has been caught cheating multiple times. The fact that he has not been fired is very damaging to the UNC brand. I'm not a UNC fan by any stretch but I feel for the innocent UNC students and athletes who didn't sign up to sell their souls for big time football. Thorpe, Baddour, Davis, and the football boosters should be ashamed of themselves.

[CameronBlue]

The bottom line to me is that Davis is the head coach of a school that has been caught cheating multiple times. The fact that he has not been fired is very damaging to the UNC brand. I'm not a UNC fan by any stretch but I feel for the innocent UNC students and athletes who didn't sign up to sell their souls for big time football. Thorpe, Baddour, Davis, and the football boosters should be ashamed of themselves.

If Davis is released it will be after the NCAA reaches its decision for obvious reasons. The notion that retaining Davis further damages the UNC brand is subject to interpretation and spin. To release Davis at this time would be tantamount to a public admission that "yeah, we let things get out of control", that things are as bad as they seem. Of course UNC DID let things get out of control but while the NCAA considers whether the "lack of institutional control" threshold has been crossed expect UNC to continue to support Davis publicly. Even after the dust settles I think there will be those among the UNC power structure who with twisted logic will oppose the firing of Davis because they'll see it as a public admission of guilt. Folks who should be ashamed frequently aren't.

[davekay1971]

I agree with Cameronblue...UNC almost has to let the investigations reach a conclusion before they make a formal decision about Butch. I wrote "formal" for a reason - I suspect the UNC administration has already made a decision to fire him if he doesn't resign, but that they are waiting for the NCAA to reach a conclusion before they do so. That's reasonable - firing him before investigations are concluded is probably premature, and may open the university up for a wrongful firing action (dunno if that's the correct legal terminology, but you probably get my drift).

That being said, I think it's pretty clear 4decadedukie is also correct stating that Butch almost certainly knew perfectly well that Blake was going to be bending the rules as a recruiter. He may not have known everything Blake was doing, but Blake almost certainly had to have been brought on by Butch with the idea that: "I need to dramatically upgrade the talent, and this guy can get me the talent I need, and I don't need the know the details of how he does it."

I'm amazed at what I'm hearing from UNC fans. So many of them, possibly a majority, are trying to pick apart this mounting evidence piece by piece and not admitting that there is clearly a big problem starting at the top of their football program. They are approaching each new piece of information or revelation and minimizing, doubting, and denying. Sadly, it is reminiscent of a wife who sees phone calls to a woman's number on her husband's cell phone, expenses from Victoria's Secret on the credit card with no gifts coming home, lipstick on her husband's collar, and an order for champagne and chocolate covered strawberries to the hotel room when he was away on a "business" trip, and won't admit that he's cheating because she hasn't actually seen it happening.

[oldnavy]

I also suspect that the wording of his contract may have something to do with the timing of his departure. I would bet that $$$ is at stake and that UNC will want to make sure it can let him go and not cost them more than it has too...

[sandinmyshoes]

Now it appears that most, if not all, the loans and credit cards and so forth linked to Blake occurred before he was hired at UNC. Evidently while he was out of coaching.


http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/10/01/1730020/lawyers-blake-accepted-money-as.html

[CameronBornAndBred]

There was no paperwork for the "loans" since the two are best friends. And they still haven't been paid back. (Granted, we don't know how long they "agreed" on, but it seems Davis has had a pretty good paying job for the last 3 years.) In my eyes, it is convenient how these are now loans after the discovery.

[CameronBlue]

There was no paperwork for the "loans" since the two are best friends. And they still haven't been paid back. (Granted, we don't know how long they "agreed" on, but it seems Davis has had a pretty good paying job for the last 3 years.) In my eyes, it is convenient how these are now loans after the discovery.

Yes because otherwise one wonders just how inept the Yahoo Sports journalist(s) are.
If the report accurately conveys the facts it brings into question the sources mentioned in the Yahoo Sports article. The obvious question is whether the journalists actually saw the receipts and checked the dates of the transactions or whether they accepted second-hand information from their "anonymous" sources at face value? Hard to believe that an investigative journalist would be that clumsy unless Fox News is somehow involved. Just what is the story here?

[oldnavy]

Isn't the issue here Blake's close association with the agent, and the fact that that same agent had improper dealings with UNC players? I don't think that the timing of the loans is the crux of the problem, rather the fact that his players found their way to his friend the agent and inappropriate activity took place. Obviously this guy is close to Wichard and that is the problem. He should have never been hired with this baggage. Did UNC expect him to disassociate himself from his old friends? I doubt it, they probably knew of his relationships and counted on them to help him "recruit". If they did not know about the relationship with Wichard, well then too bad, they should have. I have no sympathy for them at all.

[sandinmyshoes]

Having sympathy or not from us -- especially us since as Duke fans sympathy for UNC is not easily won -- is beside the point.

There are legal issues involved. Contracts. The NCAA and UNC's administrators cannot run rough shod over legal rights even if they feel those rights are being manipulated to cover up illicit intent. When you break these things down, as legalities, how is Davis or UNC supposed to know that Blake received the loans? Rumors? What program, including our own doesn't have unfounded rumors floating around it by malicious gossipers? Gossip and inuendo in the coaching ranks is nothing knew, or always true.

When it comes to UNC dismissing Davis, they'll have to have more substantial legally concrete evidence, or it will cost them plenty.

[Reilly]

In college sports, when big money donors want even honest coaches who underperform gone, it happens.

What happens when big money donors want seemingly dishonest coaches retained in the hope of future football glory? That might be the question here. Will be fascinating to see it play out. And, what it says about our rival.

If the powers that be at Carolina were all upset with Davis, he'd be gone. If there were true, genuine, uniform outrage (as it really seems there should be), he'd be gone.

Their assertions of support -- it's perplexing.

To me, it's not a situation of "oh yeah, they all want him gone, just being careful that it doesn't cost too much in payments to Butch." Seems more like they are still trying to get by with something, they still want him around, or at least certain somebodies still want him around -- whether it be to save face, win games, or whatever.

[oldnavy]

Having sympathy or not from us -- especially us since as Duke fans sympathy for UNC is not easily won -- is beside the point.

There are legal issues involved. Contracts. The NCAA and UNC's administrators cannot run rough shod over legal rights even if they feel those rights are being manipulated to cover up illicit intent. When you break these things down, as legalities, how is Davis or UNC supposed to know that Blake received the loans? Rumors? What program, including our own doesn't have unfounded rumors floating around it by malicious gossipers? Gossip and inuendo in the coaching ranks is nothing knew, or always true.

When it comes to UNC dismissing Davis, they'll have to have more substantial legally concrete evidence, or it will cost them plenty.

I believe I read in Tudor's article that the conditions for dismisal have aready been met. Again, the loan is not the primary issue IMO, it is his relationship with an AGENT who did in fact have improper contact and dealings with current UNC players while Blake was the head recruiting coach and associate head coach. It is a fact that Blake and Wichard are close, it is a fact that they were in business together (why else would a business issue someone a credit card?). I do not even think that the loan is in doubt, just when it might have occured which to me is irrelavent in this case. I am not a lawyer but this seems very simple to me. I think we are past the rumor phase, but who knows...

[sandinmyshoes]

From what I read of the Tudor's article, it sounds more like it is Tudor's opinion that the criteria for firing has been met. That's not exactly the same thing as the criteria having been met from a legal standpoint, especially since we do not have the whole story. Considering what happened to our LAX team and coaches, it seems we would understand withholding judgement until all the facts are available.

[Reilly]

... Considering what happened to our LAX team and coaches, it seems we would understand withholding judgement until all the facts are available.

If from day 1 of the Lax situation somebody wanted to punish the players for hiring a stripper and not conducting themselves in accordance to some standard for proper behavior, well, that 'fact' was known. Lots of other 'facts' about much more serious allegations were not known, so judgment should have been reserved on those other issues. But some facts were known.

Here, some facts are known. Butch worked with Blake extensively in the past. Blake had ties to an agent. Butch brought Blake to town. Butch brought in a coach and players who have now generated NCAA and university investigations. Even if Butch is totally innocent of any wrongdoing of his own -- just the victim of bad luck to be surrounded by a whole lot of alleged sordidness -- I think the facts that are known are enough for a reputable school to say, "well, y'know, we don't want you coaching our team any more -- you just seem to be bad luck." True, the school may have to pay if it doesn't have the facts to fire. But I think the school has enough facts, today, to clean up its own house, if it wanted to do so. To lessen the appearance of impropriety. To just get rid of that attracter of bad luck.

[sandinmyshoes]

If from day 1 of the Lax situation somebody wanted to punish the players for hiring a stripper and not conducting themselves in accordance to some standard for proper behavior, well, that 'fact' was known. Lots of other 'facts' about much more serious allegations were not known, so judgment should have been reserved on those other issues. But some facts were known.

Here, some facts are known. Butch worked with Blake extensively in the past. Blake had ties to an agent. Butch brought Blake to town. Butch brought in a coach and players who have now generated NCAA and university investigations. Even if Butch is totally innocent of any wrongdoing of his own -- just the victim of bad luck to be surrounded by a whole lot of alleged sordidness -- I think the facts that are known are enough for a reputable school to say, "well, y'know, we don't want you coaching our team any more -- you just seem to be bad luck." True, the school may have to pay if it doesn't have the facts to fire. But I think the school has enough facts, today, to clean up its own house, if it wanted to do so. To lessen the appearance of impropriety. To just get rid of that attracter of bad luck.

There are known "facts" but are they complete facts? I would not at all be surprised if UNC dumps Davis. But none of us have anything resembling a complete picture. Cutting someone for preceptions is something that happens a lot in sports, entertainment and business in general. But should it happen so often as it does?

I don't really care what UNC does with Davis. If they dump him, they'll just hire someone else, possibly somebody who is even better (I think he's a good coach, but not a particularly great one). Providing there are no sanctions against the program of consequence, it will be an attractive job. So I'm more than willing to see how it plays out before going on about what they should do.

As a side note. Is anyone else hearing that Blake was not very well liked by the other assitants on the team? He was, supposedly, difficult to get along with and had built his reputation as a recruiter by sweeping in and taking credit for recruits at the last minute. Many of the UNC fans I know didn't like him because they thought he ran off Tommy Thigpen, who they felt was the best recruiter on the staff.

If that is true, and it should be understood that these are themselves rumors, that does not reflect well on Davis.

[mgtr]

All the recent discussion seems to focus on the two coaches. But doesn't the AD have some responsibility here, too? On the other hand, are there examples of Blake actually steering a player to the agent involved? If just a bunch of money changed hands between friends, with no clear impact on players, is there really a case?

[sandinmyshoes]

All the recent discussion seems to focus on the two coaches. But doesn't the AD have some responsibility here, too? On the other hand, are there examples of Blake actually steering a player to the agent involved? If just a bunch of money changed hands between friends, with no clear impact on players, is there really a case?

I think I read that 13 players signed with Whichard. I have no idea what percentage of UNC football players hiring agents that represents, or how many of them Blake would have been their position coach or whatever. But that sets up circumstantial evidence. Although even then, if they are being referred to this agent because of other former players (and possibly former teamates) it could be setting up a false preception.

[Reilly]

There are known "facts" but are they complete facts? I would not at all be surprised if UNC dumps Davis. But none of us have anything resembling a complete picture. Cutting someone for preceptions is something that happens a lot in sports, entertainment and business in general. But should it happen so often as it does?

I don't really care what UNC does with Davis. If they dump him, they'll just hire someone else, possibly somebody who is even better (I think he's a good coach, but not a particularly great one). Providing there are no sanctions against the program of consequence, it will be an attractive job. So I'm more than willing to see how it plays out before going on about what they should do.

...

They are facts. Facts are facts. They are complete and known.

There may be other facts out there -- that before hiring Blake, Butch tearfully begged Blake to give up on Wichard, to come clean, to join him and do things The Carolina Way ... and Blake agreed ... and they hugged... Yeah, I don't know those other facts. They might exist. May be others that put Butch in a good light.

I don't have an opinion whether cutting someone for perceptions should be done as often as it is. I don't know, with certainty, how often it is done. I do believe it should be done here.

I do not believe Davis is a great coach. He's always struck me as smarmy. Carolina may very well get a better coach. Who knows. Even though I want UNC to lose every game it ever plays in every sport, I would like to see UNC clean up its mess totally and make a positive statement -- via action -- about what college sports should be about and what institutions of higher learning should be about. And that means getting rid of Butch. Based on the facts.

[sandinmyshoes]

They are facts. Facts are facts. They are complete and known.

There may be other facts out there -- that before hiring Blake, Butch tearfully begged Blake to give up on Wichard, to come clean, to join him and do things The Carolina Way ... and Blake agreed ... and they hugged... Yeah, I don't know those other facts. They might exist. May be others that put Butch in a good light.

I don't have an opinion whether cutting someone for perceptions should be done as often as it is. I don't know, with certainty, how often it is done. I do believe it should be done here.

I do not believe Davis is a great coach. He's always struck me as smarmy. Carolina may very well get a better coach. Who knows. Even though I want UNC to lose every game it ever plays in every sport, I would like to see UNC clean up its mess totally and make a positive statement -- via action -- about what college sports should be about and what institutions of higher learning should be about. And that means getting rid of Butch. Based on the facts.

Look, facts are facts. But sometimes you get incomplete facts. It's rather like saying a noun is a noun, but a noun by itself doesn't make a sentence. Partial facts may given one impression, but complete assembly of facts will give another.

The yahoo article stated that Blake received these loans from Wichard. Got a credit card from him and so forth. While it may not have intentionally create the impression that it happend at UNC, but that was the preception. Then we find out that all that happened before he went to work at UNC. Much of it two or three years before. While he was out of coaching. All of sudden it becomes more plausible to view it as a legit loan from one friend to another (supposedly they have known each other for a very long time). I would be curious to know how much of these loans have been paid back. Supposedly some of each of them have been payed back, but none completely. But if there are records indicating, as seems to be the case, that they have been partially paid back then that is further evidence (or facts) indicating that they were in fact loans and not gifts for services rendered (as in steering future player -- since he didn't even have players at the time of the loan) to the agent.

There's just a lot here we do not know. Yet.

[BD80]

If Davis is released it will be after the NCAA reaches its decision for obvious reasons. The notion that retaining Davis further damages the UNC brand is subject to interpretation and spin. To release Davis at this time would be tantamount to a public admission that "yeah, we let things get out of control", that things are as bad as they seem. Of course UNC DID let things get out of control but while the NCAA considers whether the "lack of institutional control" threshold has been crossed expect UNC to continue to support Davis publicly. Even after the dust settles I think there will be those among the UNC power structure who with twisted logic will oppose the firing of Davis because they'll see it as a public admission of guilt. Folks who should be ashamed frequently aren't.

The NCAA had investigators back at unc over the last 2 days regarding the academic issues. Baddour is reported to be "working with" the NCAA with respect to the investigation.

I interpret that to mean that Baddour is trying to figure out just how bad this whole thing is and how best to react. He is willing to do some serious self-penalization, but he his trying to get a feel for the extent of the transgressions, as well as what the NCAA will expect in the way of penalties. This is NOT like the USC issue where the school stonewalled investigators and denied wrongdoing and let the process drag out for years. Baddour will be proactive, and will get rid of Davis, he just doesn't want to do it piecemeal. As soon as he can announce with any certainty the extent of the allegations, he will announce what the self-imposed penalties will be - and those penalties will have been discussed with the NCAA so that they substantially meet what the NCAA expects. It will be much like a guilty plea for the minimum sentence.

I don't see it being as bad as USC, primarily because USC did not react to the allegations the way the NCAA wants its members to react.

[4decadedukie]

All the recent discussion seems to focus on the two coaches. But doesn't the AD have some responsibility here, too?

Of course, as does the entire UNC "chain of command" above Davis. Good leaders and managers select trustworthy, proven people, make expectations unambiguous, discuss methods to be used, and conduct subtle (and, sometimes, not too restrained) oversight to ensure compliance. That is the AD's JOB, and the President's, and the Chancellor's, and the Trustees’.

[Bob Green]

The NCAA has denied UNC's appeal in the cases of Burney and Williams:

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/story/8384795/

[whereinthehellami]

The Yahoo artice had an image of the reciept with Marvin Austin's name and Pro-Select on it. How does UNC spin that one? That links Marvin, Blake, Balmer and Wichard together.

Davis, Blake, and Wichard have all lied about their relationships with each other. They went from saying that they don't talk much to saying that they talk enough to hand out $45,000 loans to each other. Why is Davis still talking? He is just killing himself, he should just refer everyone to his lawyer, cut Baddour out of the equation.

Here is all of the scandals davis has to keep track of:

Austin, Little, Quan, and others who are involved with improper benefits.


Blake and Wichard's (more to come?) involvement with each other and his program.


Renegade tutor (more to come?) who he hired for his team and son.


Drug dealer, named Hawkins who had unlimited access to their facilties and players.
:mad:

[Devilsfan]

unch, Duke; top 25 academics, top 10 academics; public institution, private institution; davis, Coach Cut; ol'roy, Coach K; uncch's Austin, Duke's Austin. Need I say more.

[CameronBornAndBred]

unch, Duke; top 25 academics, top 10 academics; public institution, private institution; davis, Coach Cut; ol'roy, Coach K; uncch's Austin, Duke's Austin. Need I say more.
Ummm...don't see the point of this comparison..as much as I'm not a unc fan. Why does whether unc is a public or private institution matter? As far as the academics...if you can't afford Duke and the top 10 academics, being accepted to and being able to pay for a top 25 education makes a lot of sense to me. I agree with the coaching, and then pause again at the Austin comparisons. We haven't gotten to know our Austin well enough (he's not even enrolled yet!) to make that one valid. Also not sure how it applies to this thread. (And I do get the irony in that response.)

[mgtr]

Why is Davis still talking? He is just killing himself, he should just refer everyone to his lawyer, cut Baddour out of the equation.


He probably thinks he is the smartest guy in the room, and can talk his way out of anything. Most people who think they are that smart, aren"t.

[oldnavy]

Look, facts are facts. But sometimes you get incomplete facts. It's rather like saying a noun is a noun, but a noun by itself doesn't make a sentence. Partial facts may given one impression, but complete assembly of facts will give another.

The yahoo article stated that Blake received these loans from Wichard. Got a credit card from him and so forth. While it may not have intentionally create the impression that it happend at UNC, but that was the preception. Then we find out that all that happened before he went to work at UNC. Much of it two or three years before. While he was out of coaching. All of sudden it becomes more plausible to view it as a legit loan from one friend to another (supposedly they have known each other for a very long time). I would be curious to know how much of these loans have been paid back. Supposedly some of each of them have been payed back, but none completely. But if there are records indicating, as seems to be the case, that they have been partially paid back then that is further evidence (or facts) indicating that they were in fact loans and not gifts for services rendered (as in steering future player -- since he didn't even have players at the time of the loan) to the agent.

There's just a lot here we do not know. Yet.

Here is the part that should concern UNC fans and the NCAA. Can you reasonably think that Blake would not steer players to Wichard? I don't think you can. I think that it is totally within reason to believe that he did in fact steer the players that signed with Wichard to him, after all he was in business with the guy at some point. That and the fact that he basically lied about their relationship should be enough to convince anyone that this is a problem. This isn't a criminal trial (yet) so the burden of proof is not the same. Fact is, Davis was the man being paid millions of dollars each year to ensure that nothing like this happened and it has. He will be fired and justifiably so in my opinion.

[JasonEvans]

If I am the NCAA, agents loaning money to prominent college coaches is a biiig problem. Even if the guys were longtime friends, someone you own money to is someone you have to do favors for. And these loans were not even documented with papers or through a bank. These guys had to know that the appearance of impropriety was a major problem here.

So, the best case scenario for Blake is that he was beholden via undocumented loans to an agent that happened to sign a lot of Blake's former players who went to the NFL. That's the best case scenario.

What if this same thing happened with a player? What if Austin had gotten a $50,000 loan from Blake? The NCAA would immediately say this was an improper benefit and clearly an agent trying to get around rules that prohibit him from actually paying a player who is still in school. Doing the same thing for a coach is going to get you in hot water.

And let me ask another question -- what were the terms of this loan? What was the interest rate? When was it to be repaid? What was the collateral put up to guarantee the loan? I think it is a safe bet that Blake got extremely favorable terms on this loan, far better than he would have gotten had he gone to a bank for a loan. If you think about it logically, giving someone a sweet loan is no different from putting money in their pocket.

Think about the benefit if you got a $100,000 loan and only had to repay the $100,000 - interest free - in 7 years. Even if you did nothing with the loan but collect interest you would be earning thousands of dollars a year with zero risk.

We still do not know the truth here, but if the best defense is "this was just friends giving each other a sweetheart loan" I think Blake and UNC are still going to be in fairly significant trouble. It may not be quite as bad as some were thinking 24 hours ago, but the NCAA is going to have a problem with this relationship.

--Jason "there is simply too much bad stuff going on here for Davis to keep his job-- he'll be gone shortly after the season ends... if not sooner" Evans

[4decadedukie]

And let me ask another question -- what were the terms of this loan? What was the interest rate? When was it to be repaid? What was the collateral put up to guarantee the loan? I think it is a safe bet that Blake got extremely favorable terms on this loan, far better than he would have gotten had he gone to a bank for a loan. If you think about it logically, giving someone a sweet loan is no different from putting money in their pocket .

Jason,

This captures the crux of the "loan" question. Add to your comments the critical issue of no legally binding contract to define the terms under which the "loan" is granted and will be repaid.

The fact is the "loan" is solely a convenient fantasy that appeared only when the media, the NCAA, UNC, other State investigators, and perhaps (eventually) the IRS suddenly uncovered this illicit agent-coach payoff. In addition, as you have stated, there is real, computable value in a zero interest "loan" with no specific and documented repayment conditions.

This fiction does nothing to absolve Blake or to assist UNC; in fact, it is so ludicrous and transparent that (IMHO) it makes Blake appear even more deceitful and unethical.

Having served on several Duke Boards and Executive Committees that provide advice to the University's officers, I find it utterly impossible to believe that UNC-CH's aggregate leadership isn't insistent on terminating Davis and on drastically "cleaning house." Obviously, there is a question of the appropriate timing; however, these scandals (academic fraud, illegal payments, unauthorized agent contact) are too major, too visible, too destructive of UNC's public stature, and too able to undermine an institution with great pride and reputation to be merit anything less.

[Olympic Fan]

It will be interesting to see the continued fallout of this story. Charles Rbinson, who wrote the Yahoo story detailing the financial ties between Wichard and Blake has said he has more to come. In addition, TMZ is contacting ex-UNC players and former UNC recruiting targets, trying to dig up dirt -- and offering to pay for it!

Wow, no telling what turns up.

I was just talking to someone I respect about the consequences of what's been discovered. Here is his take:

-- UNC will get most of its suspended players back in a game or two. That doesn't include Marvin Austin, who will never play another down at UNC. It probably doesn't include Greg Little or Robert Quinn (this is not fact, but the whispers are that Quinn lied to NCAA investigators -- as Dez Bryant discovered, that's the death penalty).

-- Unless hard evidence emerges showing Butch Davis had direct knowledge of the scandal (either agentgate or nannygate), he will finish out the season. Oh, he's gone, but for contractural reasons, they can't find him until the NCAA delivers its finding and that will be long after the season. Most likely, he'll finish up the season, then be allowed to resign on his own (maybe with a modest buy-out) a la Blake "because I've become a distraction to the program."

-- The NCAA finding, when it comes down -- maybe next summer -- will be a hammer blow. How can they not find lack of institutional control when the assistant head coach is acting as a runner for an agent? The penalty will be several years of probation, a major loss of scholarships and a bowl ban. There's also a very strong liklihood that UNC will have to vacate its eight wins from 2009 (Austin was almost certainly ineligible that season) ... maybe more, depending on how far back the academic side of the scandal goes (Baddour addmitted that it is several years old).

-- Dick Baddour's job security is hanging by a thread. My friend said 50-50 that he goes too. He guessed that Baddour would go, but later rather than sooner. They will do their best to let him go gracefully (kind of the way Duke eased Joe Alleva out the door).

-- As of now, UNC basketball is safe from the probe. The basketball team (like Duke's team) has its own academic support staff, so they are not involved in nannygate. And they seem to be well insulated from the John Blake/Marvin Austin agentgate. Greg Little did play 10 basketball games in 2008, but that was probably before he did anything to make himself ineligible.

Ayway, that's what I'm getting from a very well-informed source. Of course, it's just message board stuff, so take it for what it's worth. More information could emerge that could change everything, but that's how it stands based on what we now know.

[OldPhiKap]

Jason,

This captures the crux of the "loan" question. Add to your comments the critical issue of no legally binding contract to define the terms under which the "loan" is granted and will be repaid.

The fact is the "loan" is solely a convenient fantasy that appeared only when the media, the NCAA, UNC, other State investigators, and perhaps (eventually) the IRS suddenly uncovered this illicit agent-coach payoff. In addition, as you have stated, there is real, computable value in a zero interest "loan" with no specific and documented repayment conditions.

This also has tax implications. I wonder how both entities reported this for tax purposes.

As I've said before, the NCAA and the Sec/St. may be the lease of Blake's problems. Taxes is what led to Capone rotting in Alcatraz . . . .

[oldnavy]

I had an interesting discussion with my tarheel friend last night. Basically, his take (which is a fair indication of the average UNC fan's take IMO) is that the NCAA is at fault here. He thinks that the system (NCAA) is so flawed that UNC could not help breaking the rules, that every recruiting coach in the country has direct ties with agents, that every student athlete has his/her papers written by a tutor, and that no one can blame a football player that accepts money from anybody willing to give it out because they are just kids! Now this is the same guy that was screaming for an investigation into the Maggette case years ago, and who believes the only reason Duke hasn’t been busted for cheating already is because Duke (K specifically) has the NCAA on the payroll.
I am sure that if the shoe we on the other foot, we would have some Duke fans making excuses, but I have to believe that most of the DBR faithful would be calling for heads to roll. I can ASSURE you that if we were in the same situation that the UNC fan base would be screaming for NCAA sanctions and firings at the top of their lungs!! Amazing!! You can't make stuff like this up!!

[roywhite]

I had an interesting discussion with my tarheel friend last night. Basically, his take (which is a fair indication of the average UNC fan's take IMO) is that the NCAA is at fault here. He thinks that the system (NCAA) is so flawed that UNC could not help breaking the rules, that every recruiting coach in the country has direct ties with agents, that every student athlete has his/her papers written by a tutor, and that no one can blame a football player that accepts money from anybody willing to give it out because they are just kids! Now this is the same guy that was screaming for an investigation into the Maggette case years ago, and who believes the only reason Duke hasn’t been busted for cheating already is because Duke (K specifically) has the NCAA on the payroll.
I am sure that if the shoe we on the other foot, we would have some Duke fans making excuses, but I have to believe that most of the DBR faithful would be calling for heads to roll. I can ASSURE you that if we were in the same situation that the UNC fan base would be screaming for NCAA sanctions and firings at the top of their lungs!! Amazing!! You can't make stuff like this up!!

"Everybody does it" is a popular but lame excuse.

[kong123]

I had an interesting discussion with my tarheel friend last night. Basically, his take (which is a fair indication of the average UNC fan's take IMO) is that the NCAA is at fault here. He thinks that the system (NCAA) is so flawed that UNC could not help breaking the rules, that every recruiting coach in the country has direct ties with agents, that every student athlete has his/her papers written by a tutor, and that no one can blame a football player that accepts money from anybody willing to give it out because they are just kids! Now this is the same guy that was screaming for an investigation into the Maggette case years ago, and who believes the only reason Duke hasn’t been busted for cheating already is because Duke (K specifically) has the NCAA on the payroll.
I am sure that if the shoe we on the other foot, we would have some Duke fans making excuses, but I have to believe that most of the DBR faithful would be calling for heads to roll. I can ASSURE you that if we were in the same situation that the UNC fan base would be screaming for NCAA sanctions and firings at the top of their lungs!! Amazing!! You can't make stuff like this up!!

I cannot believe that any rational person would think or say what your friend said. You have to be embellishing the story a bit. No rational person thinks the NCAA is at fault. and everyone knows that heads will roll at the appropriate time. I feel sorry for you if this is the type of fan you consider a typical UNC fan and I now understand why you have such a hatred of UNC. You seem to be surrounded by stupid people.

[Indoor66]

tarheel friend

Obviously this is an oxymoron! http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/wizard.gif

[devildeac]

I had an interesting discussion with my tarheel friend last night. Basically, his take (which is a fair indication of the average UNC fan's take IMO) is that the NCAA is at fault here. He thinks that the system (NCAA) is so flawed that UNC could not help breaking the rules, that every recruiting coach in the country has direct ties with agents, that every student athlete has his/her papers written by a tutor, and that no one can blame a football player that accepts money from anybody willing to give it out because they are just kids! Now this is the same guy that was screaming for an investigation into the Maggette case years ago, and who believes the only reason Duke hasn’t been busted for cheating already is because Duke (K specifically) has the NCAA on the payroll.
I am sure that if the shoe we on the other foot, we would have some Duke fans making excuses, but I have to believe that most of the DBR faithful would be calling for heads to roll. I can ASSURE you that if we were in the same situation that the UNC fan base would be screaming for NCAA sanctions and firings at the top of their lungs!! Amazing!! You can't make stuff like this up!!

See this thread:

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?22438-The-Duke-Argument

And this link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iVKPUNoeI4

http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/24.gif

[sleepybear]

I cannot believe that any rational person would think or say what your friend said. You have to be embellishing the story a bit. No rational person thinks the NCAA is at fault. and everyone knows that heads will roll at the appropriate time. I feel sorry for you if this is the type of fan you consider a typical UNC fan and I now understand why you have such a hatred of UNC. You seem to be surrounded by stupid people.

I guess you have not read IC lately.
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=78&f=1408&t=6461690

[ricks68]

See this thread:

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?22438-The-Duke-Argument

And this link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iVKPUNoeI4

http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/24.gif



I was going to refer kong to these links, also. Just reading a random selection of the comments on the IC boards should be enough to ascertain the intelligence level and basketball knowledge of the average UNC fan. Having a UNC fan like kong on our boards is definitely the exception, rather than the rule, regarding rationality, in my opinion. Oldnavy's friend, therefore, appears to be the norm (unfortunately), regarding the reference to stupidity by kong. I wouldn't have categorized a rabid, irrational UNC fan as being stupid, however, as there are many, many UNC grads and students that are very intelligent and major positive contributors to society that are also rabid and irrational regarding UNC basketball. But then, kong said it. I didn't.:p

ricks

[moonpie23]

I cannot believe that any rational person would think or say what your friend said. You have to be embellishing the story a bit. No rational person thinks the NCAA is at fault. and everyone knows that heads will roll at the appropriate time. I feel sorry for you if this is the type of fan you consider a typical UNC fan and I now understand why you have such a hatred of UNC. You seem to be surrounded by stupid people.

whoooooaaaa.....hang on there, kong.....

this IS the "average Unc fan"......

My sampling? i've got prolly 40 peeps in my UNC folder (folks that i know very well, and am close enough to have their cell--phone/email to text/call/correspond with.

when good-natured ribbing takes place on a BAD UNC night, i send those folks a variety of pokes and jabs, they in turn jump on every negative thing that happens to duke the same way......when duke loses, my phone about blows up from when the clock strikes 0:00 for the next 5 min.....i counted 54 text slams in the 3 mins after duke got hammered by g'town...do i bring that on myself? of course i do, cause i love to play dat!!

when unc won the natty in 05 and again in 09, my text to ALL of them was "congratulations on the title and a commanding run through the tourny!"


when duke won against butler, i got THREE congrats.......THREE......out of about 40...

over the next few days, i got the other 37 telling me how the NCAA belongs to K and that CBS set it all up and how duke was lucky that they didn't have to meet UNC in the tourny "cause they had righted the ship in the NIT) pay no attention to the 82-50...

Now to the point....

of all my sampling friends, only ONE has said that UNC was at fault IN ANY WAY.......the rest of them are ALL saying:

• all schools do it, duke just hasn't gotten caught
• the rules are stupid
• it was just a personal loan that doesn't affect the school
• how could butch look after EVERYTHING with ALL his players and assistants.


now in addition to my "friends" as samples, i know many more tarholes that are NOT my friends and they profess the UK line of reasoning that "the ncaa is just out to get them cause they know UNC would be so dominant this year".........puhleeeeze..


just go over to IC on the football board and take your own sample about how many posts actually admit that something COULD be wrong..


that arrogance IS the typical UNC fan...

http://ui32.gamespot.com/479/702headbanginstick_2.gif

[ricks68]

I guess you have not read IC lately.
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=78&f=1408&t=6461690

After going to the link provided by sleepybear for the latest on the IC boards, I have to retract my statements regarding intelligence and rationality of UNC fans in other areas other than basketball.:rolleyes:

Boy, they are absolutely STUPID and irrational!

ricks

[JasonEvans]

You know, I really wonder how Duke fans on this board would react if we were to find ourselves in a scandal anywhere close to what is happening at UNC.

Of course, all I can do is wonder about it. I have no way of really knowing because nothing like this has ever even come close to happening at Duke (at least during my fandom over the past 25-30 years).

-Jason "I would hope we could be more rational, but there is a reason fan comes from the word fanatic" Evans

[roywhite]

You know, I really wonder how Duke fans on this board would react if we were to find ourselves in a scandal anywhere close to what is happening at UNC.

Of course, all I can do is wonder about it. I have no way of really knowing because nothing like this has ever even come close to happening at Duke (at least during my fandom over the past 25-30 years).

-Jason "I would hope we could be more rational, but there is a reason fan comes from the word fanatic" Evans

I'd call the false accusations against the Lacrosse players in 2006 a major scandal. It involved different allegations than the current UNC mess, but was still a huge news story and involved passionate reactions (with sharply differing opinions) throughout the Duke community.

Perhaps this is not the sort of scandal you had in mind, but it's fine with me if we don't ever again have a sports-related controversy along those lines or like UNC's, for that matter.

[oldnavy]

I cannot believe that any rational person would think or say what your friend said. You have to be embellishing the story a bit. No rational person thinks the NCAA is at fault. and everyone knows that heads will roll at the appropriate time. I feel sorry for you if this is the type of fan you consider a typical UNC fan and I now understand why you have such a hatred of UNC. You seem to be surrounded by stupid people.

No embellishment at all, in fact I didn't even get into all of what he said. Read your own message board for heaven's sake, there is not a lot of rational or reasonable discussion going on over on IC.

This man is anything but stupid. Has a law degree and a degree from seminary (yea I know, still trying to figure that combo out myself). He like so many of my friends that are UNC fans are just a little arrogant and delusional when it comes to UNC. The fact that you cannot see that suggests arrogance and delusion on your part to some degree. Also, you may want to avoid calling people stupid, comes across as a little condescending and judgmental.

[DukieInKansas]

Obviously this is an oxymoron! http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/wizard.gif

I get your point but I will say that I think I would enjoy meeting and getting to know Kong123, despite his glaring fault of being a tar heel fan. ;)

[DevilHorns]

I get your point but I will say that I think I would enjoy meeting and getting to know Kong123, despite his glaring fault of being a tar heel fan. ;)

I wonder if kong and wheat are the same person. One mysteriously disappears and the other comes along... nah just kidding.

Wonder where wheat is though?

[4decadedukie]

You know, I really wonder how Duke fans on this board would react if we were to find ourselves in a scandal anywhere close to what is happening at UNC.

Of course, all I can do is wonder about it. I have no way of really knowing because nothing like this has ever even come close to happening at Duke (at least during my fandom over the past 25-30 years).

-Jason "I would hope we could be more rational, but there is a reason fan comes from the word fanatic" Evans
What follows, obviously, is completely speculative. While I am sure Duke would have some irrational partisans, I honestly believe most Dukies would be thoughtful and would be more focused on the causes, on the options to resolve both the immediate and the long term issues, and on the deep support for enduring University objectives and precepts. I base this on alumni and supporter reaction during the Lacrosse Hoax; while there certainly were major differences in their beliefs concerning what served Duke best (ranging from the University's senior leadership erred badly to the judicious course adopted was the lowest risk approach to protect Duke's many, widely varied interests), what all of these individuals shared in common was an overriding belief in and commitment to the University and an intense desire to resolve any Duke deficiencies. In essence, we remained focused on the future and on continuous improvement.

That vastly differs from the denial and the "mud slinging" that now seems prevalent at UNC (at least if their several boards' postings are an accurate measure of the aggregate community's current attitudes).

[Newton_14]

I wonder if kong and wheat are the same person. One mysteriously disappears and the other comes along... nah just kidding.

Wonder where wheat is though?

I have been wondering the same thing. Wheat has totally disappeared! Should we put out an APB? Bolo?

Kong could use a little help, and the rest of us have a lot of crow to feed Wheat. The fishing must be really good or his boat is stranded on Gilligan's Island somewhere in the Bermuda Triangle or something!:D

[sagegrouse]

That vastly differs from the denial and the "mud slinging" that now seems prevalent at UNC (at least if their several boards' postings are an accurate measure of the aggregate community's current attitudes).

Posters are a self-selected group and cetainly not a random sample of anything. In this case I would speculate that Carolina fans are divided between those who are appalled but would never say anything negative about UNC in a public forum and those who would defend UNC at any cost -- who are well-represented on IC. Consequently, I wouldn't leap to conclusions on the Carolina community or Carolina fans based on the posts of the latter group.

sagegrouse

[4decadedukie]

Posters are a self-selected group and cetainly not a random sample of anything. In this case I would speculate that Carolina fans are divided between those who are appalled but would never say anything negative about UNC in a public forum and those who would defend UNC at any cost -- who are well-represented on IC. Consequently, I wouldn't leap to conclusions on the Carolina community or Carolina fans based on the posts of the latter group.

sagegrouse


I agree, especially with the two categories you suggested. However, during LAX '06/'07, I believe we had a third critical and distinct group: very loyal to Duke institutional, but willing to offer public constructive criticism. That, Sage, is the difference I poorly attempted to highlight in my previous post and -- at least for now -- that is the cohort that appears to be missing among the UNC-CH "faithful."

[DevilHorns]

Posters are a self-selected group and cetainly not a random sample of anything. In this case I would speculate that Carolina fans are divided between those who are appalled but would never say anything negative about UNC in a public forum and those who would defend UNC at any cost -- who are well-represented on IC. Consequently, I wouldn't leap to conclusions on the Carolina community or Carolina fans based on the posts of the latter group.

sagegrouse

Well put sage. I would go further and say that posters on IC or what have you tend to represent the lunatic fringe of their respective fanbases.

Most Duke fans don't know who Kyrie Irving is. Most UNC fans don't know who Harrison Barnes is. Most fans enjoy the sport and enjoy simply supporting their team. Those that obsess over the sport like we do obviously have a little more to lose emotionally and mentally if things start falling apart. That my friends is the force behind the general denial and feverish defensive fronts that breed at IC. They were told that football was going to become relevant at UNC. Most casual UNC fans couldn't care less. However, they do care about their degrees, and how much they are worth in the public eye. UNC is one of the best public schools across the nation, No doubt. This puts a serious dent in that image.

[kong123]

Also, you may want to avoid calling people stupid, comes across as a little condescending and judgmental.

same goes for you my friend, pot calling the kettle

[kong123]

I have been wondering the same thing. Wheat has totally disappeared! Should we put out an APB? Bolo?

Kong could use a little help, and the rest of us have a lot of crow to feed Wheat. The fishing must be really good or his boat is stranded on Gilligan's Island somewhere in the Bermuda Triangle or something!:D



I guess it was more fun for him to be here during the good times and not the bad....

[Duvall]

I have been wondering the same thing. Wheat has totally disappeared! Should we put out an APB? Bolo?

Kong could use a little help, and the rest of us have a lot of crow to feed Wheat. The fishing must be really good or his boat is stranded on Gilligan's Island somewhere in the Bermuda Triangle or something!:D

Give Wheat some time. Losing the Wear twins - you can't get over something like that in just three or four months.

[DevilHorns]

Give Wheat some time. Losing the Wear twins - you can't get over something like that in just three or four months.

I let out a good chuckle on that one. Nicely done sir. Wheat loved to defend him some Wear twins.

Fishing must've been awfully good this year. :rolleyes:

[Deslok]

He just hoped that the Wears would be the next Brian Berstickers...

[Devil07]

The latest: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5646243
Looks Marcell Dareus has told NCAA investigators that Blake tried to get him to sign with Wichard this summer. And the hits keep on coming...

[CameronBornAndBred]

This article from Yahoo sports is a little more in depth, and it also says that Blake tried to get Weslye Saunders to sign with Wichard as well.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=ys-dareus100310

[JasonEvans]

The Carolina Student Newspaper posted an editorial yesterday (http://www.dailytarheel.com/index.php/article/2010/10/davis_should_go_) calling for Butch Davis to be let go at season's end. We have spoken a lot in this thread about the reaction to all this from Carolina fans. I think it speaks volumes when the Daily Tar Heel speaks up and says it is time for the head coach to go.

--Jason "of course, there are many comments written in response to the article that say Davis should stay-- blind faith from some fans" Evans

[CameronBornAndBred]

The Carolina Student Newspaper posted an editorial yesterday (http://www.dailytarheel.com/index.php/article/2010/10/davis_should_go_) calling for Butch Davis to be let go at season's end. We have spoken a lot in this thread about the reaction to all this from Carolina fans. I think it speaks volumes when the Daily Tar Heel speaks up and says it is time for the head coach to go.

--Jason "of course, there are many comments written in response to the article that say Davis should stay-- blind faith from some fans" Evans

I love the first comment left on that article. It's at the bottom of the page...talk about a delusional dreamer. Hold on to that fantasy, buddy!

[nocilla]

I know it's been said before, but I'm just floored at how much the scales of justice have flipped in a year. Last year at this time I was in the doldrums over HB picking reigning national champion UNC, and doubting that Duke could maybe make it past the sweet 16 for the first time in what felt like forever with no proven post presence.

In the last year UNC has..
- been critically panned for throwing out an opposing fan during a basketball game.
- Missed the NCAA tournament for only the second time in recent history
- lost 2 players to transfer
- lost another player to the draft
- involved in a cheating scandal with the football team
- lost an assistant football coach due to financial ties to an agent
- had 12 football players suspended for various violations
- lost Austin Rivers to their biggest rival
- is poised to lose their head football coach and experience some serious sanctions.


This is just nit-picking (Or should I say NIT-picking) but UNC missed the NCAA tourney 3 times in recent history. 2010, 2003, & 2002.

[alteran]

They were told that football was going to become relevant at UNC...

And boy is it ever! :)

[4decadedukie]

And boy is it ever! :)

Nice . . . LOL.

[Highlander]

This is just nit-picking (Or should I say NIT-picking) but UNC missed the NCAA tourney 3 times in recent history. 2010, 2003, & 2002.

I stand corrected. UNC was actually worse than I thought, and thrice missed the NCAA tournament during the 2000's. I love yielding when that is the case :) I remembered the 8-20 season, but had forgotten they missed it the next year as well.

"Team of the Decade." Indeed.

[CameronBornAndBred]

The heels can't get rid of Butch now...he has said he's sorry.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/story/8395052/

[roywhite]

The heels can't get rid of Butch now...he has said he's sorry.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/story/8395052/

Has he compared the situation to a hurricane or Haitian eartquake?

We need some context, Butch. :rolleyes:

[Duvall]

The heels can't get rid of Butch now...he has said he's sorry.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/story/8395052/


In light of the dual investigations, The Daily Tar Heel called Monday for Davis to resign. Davis has previously stated he has no intentions of stepping down. Quarterback T.J. Yates called the DTH’s movement ridiculous and said that they are just looking for someone to blame.

Um. *Shouldn't* UNC be looking for the people that are to blame?

[oldnavy]

Has he compared the situation to a hurricane or Haitian eartquake?

We need some context, Butch. :rolleyes:

These kinds of apologies are useless. It is like saying that "I'm sorry if you are offended"...

Saying that "I am sorry that I trusted John Blake" really doesn't convey any remorse for his own errors, just that he is sorry that he got mixed up in this mess.

How about being a man and saying something along the line like... I made a mistake by not properly supervising my program and providing the leadership that would ensure that this type of thing would never happen.

Do they have a script that coaches follow over there to deflect blame onto others???

[DukieInKansas]

These kinds of apologies are useless. It is like saying that "I'm sorry if you are offended"...

Saying that "I am sorry that I trusted John Blake" really doesn't convey any remorse for his own errors, just that he is sorry that he got mixed up in this mess.

How about being a man and saying something along the line like... I made a mistake by not properly supervising my program and providing the leadership that would ensure that this type of thing would never happen.

Do they have a script that coaches follow over there to deflect blame onto others???

I think they just have really hungry busses that need something thrown to them periodically to feed them. :D

[4decadedukie]

Only ACTIONS -- certainly not words alone, however remorseful -- will satisfy UNC-CH's growing legion of skeptics (the NCAA, loyal alumni and boosters who are truly distraught by this "Carolina Way," University leaders and state political influencers, media reporters and pundits, senior leadership and decision makers, the national educational and intercollegiate sports constituencies, and so forth) that UNC is sufficiently serious about both punishing the wrongdoers and ensuring repetition is not possible (for each of the several ethical/legal breaches). Nothing less will do. I am convinced UNC intends to take strong actions, however, they should understand that their continued delay -- for whatever reasons -- substantially undermines enduring UNC-CH credibility and reputation.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Only ACTIONS -- certainly not words alone, however remorseful -- will satisfy UNC-CH's growing legion of skeptics (the NCAA, loyal alumni and boosters who are truly distraught by this "Carolina Way," University leaders and state political influencers, media reporters and pundits, senior leadership and decision makers, the national educational and intercollegiate sports constituencies, and so forth) that UNC is sufficiently serious about both punishing the wrongdoers and ensuring repetition is not possible (for each of the several ethical/legal breaches). Nothing less will do. I am convinced UNC intends to take strong actions, however, they should understand that their continued delay -- for whatever reasons -- substantially undermines enduring UNC-CH credibility and reputation.
Well said and agreed. Compare the actions that Tennessee took and those of the heels. Pearl gets busted, and the Vols administration come out with guns blazing against their own folks. They didn't fire the coaches, but they took a very strong stance and layed out monetary penalties that will hurt wallets and recruiting penalties that will hurt the university. The NCAA will come up with their own penalties, but at least they will see that the Tennessee administration is serious about what went on under their noses.
In contrast, unc has circled the wagons in a fog of silence, and we've seen the details unfold mostly because of investigative reporting. They handed out some suspensions, of which most aren't really suspensions (since they are just not allowing the kids to play while they "investigate") and one coach resigned on his own. No step forward, show "we will not tolerate this" attitude from Baddour or Davis. Instead we see Davis blaming the guy who already quit, and Baddour repeating "no comment". I can't imagine the NCAA will look past those attitudes as anything but contradictory to their cause. I think the writing is on the wall when the NCAA shot down the appeals the heel's have already submitted. (An act which probably doesn't shine to brightly in the NCAA investigators eyes either...in the middle of big investigation, the first chance the heels get, they shove it back in their face and basically say "you're wrong, we disagree".)

[sagegrouse]

Well said and agreed. Compare the actions that Tennessee took and those of the heels. Pearl gets busted, and the Vols administration come out with guns blazing against their own folks. They didn't fire the coaches, but they took a very strong stance and layed out monetary penalties that will hurt wallets and recruiting penalties that will hurt the university. The NCAA will come up with their own penalties, but at least they will see that the Tennessee administration is serious about what went on under their noses.
In contrast, unc has circled the wagons in a fog of silence, and we've seen the details unfold mostly because of investigative reporting. They handed out some suspensions, of which most aren't really suspensions (since they are just not allowing the kids to play while they "investigate") and one coach resigned on his own. No step forward, show "we will not tolerate this" attitude from Baddour or Davis. Instead we see Davis blaming the guy who already quit, and Baddour repeating "no comment". I can't imagine the NCAA will look past those attitudes as anything but contradictory to their cause. I think the writing is on the wall when the NCAA shot down the appeals the heel's have already submitted. (An act which probably doesn't shine to brightly in the NCAA investigators eyes either...in the middle of big investigation, the first chance the heels get, they shove it back in their face and basically say "you're wrong, we disagree".)

I don't disagree with your assessment that UNC is trying to drag this one out hoping that the excision of the cancerous Blake, the suspension of cheaters, and the reformation of the tutoring program will stave off major institutional penalties.

UT OTOH was presented with a smoking gun -- Bruce Pearl lied to investigators and when presented with photographic evidence to the contrary (home entertainment of HS underclassmen) thought about it for a day or two and requested a re-interview. UT got to keep its coach and save $1.5 mil at the same time. Very clearcut violation.

UNC is just a mess. Butch Davis's involvement is hard to pin down except that the ship ran aground (at least twice) while he was captain. Giving UNC the benefit of the doubt -- strictly an intellectual exercise, I assure you -- it is waiting for the dust to settle to see how it can take action against Davis under the terms of his contract.

sagegrouse

[Reilly]

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news;_ylt=Avq3aR0eKR4JQyzkzENbpm85nYcB?slug=cr-blake100410

[moonpie23]

uh oh...http://ui32.gamespot.com/479/702headbanginstick_4.gif

[OldPhiKap]

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news;_ylt=Avq3aR0eKR4JQyzkzENbpm85nYcB?slug=cr-blake100410

"Follow the money"

UNC is in real trouble. The big question is whether they can tie knowledge of any of this to Butch. Doubtful. But if the state or feds give immunity to someone in the chain, and they start talking -- should be interesting to see what comes up.

This is a pretty damning admission by Blake's lawyers.

[roywhite]

"Follow the money"

UNC is in real trouble. The big question is whether they can tie knowledge of any of this to Butch. Doubtful. But if the state or feds give immunity to someone in the chain, and they start talking -- should be interesting to see what comes up.

This is a pretty damning admission by Blake's lawyers.

Thanks to Reilly for that original link.

Wow. The UNC folks are just about out of room to spin this.

Seriously, I can't recall documentation like this showing a financial relationship and transactions between an agent and an active college coach.

[killerleft]

Having more bills than one can pay would make Blake more prone to need extra money by "running" for an agent, would it not? This revelation, if it's true, only seems to be more fuel for the fire.

[moonpie23]

This is a pretty damning admission by Blake's lawyers.

well, that's wade smith....he doesn't make "admissions".........every syllable that comes out of his mouth is perfectly planned......when i saw that blake had hired wade, i knew that BLAKE knew that he needed the HEAVY artillery ...

and he got it...watch for smith to earn his money....

http://ui32.gamespot.com/479/702headbanginstick_2.gif

[Devilsfan]

If they lose Saturday Butch will be blaming his terrible childhood, or maybe he will use the 'ol twinkie defense. Yeah, it's Hostess' fault for putting those sugar laden treats on the grocers shelves.

[JasonEvans]

For the lawyers to so completely backtrack like this is really telling. I think someone got in Blake's ear and said, "come clean about everything-- no lies or coverups -- and you might stay out of jail. If you do anything other than fully cooperate you will be looking at full prosecution by the NC Attny. General and the NCAA is going to make it so that you never coach again."

The explanations for the payments are farcical. The notion that Blake had some horrible mortgage on a $600k house when he was getting hundreds of thousands of dollars from Oklahoma is a joke. The private school tuition is equally laughable.

I am telling you, Carolina's best hope is to get out front on this. They need to announce self-imposed penalties as soon as possible. They need to announce wholesale changes in their compliance department and need to make it clear that running a clean program is the single most important thing to them-- far ahead of winning games.

--Jason "this is gonna be very ugly for them" Evans

[Olympic Fan]

I was just watched ESPN's College Football Live (6:30 p.m. Tuesday) and Joe Schad was on, talking about the UNC situation.

His take, which he claimed was based on discussion with several people who have been intimately involved in similar situations are:

(1) UNC's penalties will be MUCH worse than those Southern Cal received (two-year bowl ban, four-years probation, 30 lost scholoarships over four years).

(2) It will be a LONG time before this is resolved.

on the other hand, Inside Carolina's Greg Barnes was on the radio this morning saying that UNC officials believe there will be NO sanctions (of course, I don't think Barnes or Inside Carolina has been right about anything in this case ... if you want the real dope, go to PackPride)

[roywhite]

I am telling you, Carolina's best hope is to get out front on this. They need to announce self-imposed penalties as soon as possible. They need to announce wholesale changes in their compliance department and need to make it clear that running a clean program is the single most important thing to them-- far ahead of winning games.

--Jason "this is gonna be very ugly for them" Evans

I agree with that suggested strategy, but I really wonder if that's the tack they'll take.

Who's calling the shots so far? Dick Baddour by the appearance of things. And my take is that so far he's been trying to run the clock out.....like, oh say, a 4-corner offense that some of us may recall.

I don't doubt that Bill Friday would have acted already, but I don't know if there is anyone in the UNC system who has the power and inclination to take strong, preemptive steps.

[CameronBornAndBred]

If you do anything other than fully cooperate you will be looking at full prosecution by the NC Attny. General and the NCAA is going to make it so that you never coach again."

I don't think Blake has to worry too much about that. Hopefully Wichard has a job waiting for him. (Again.)

[roywhite]

I don't think Blake has to worry too much about that. Hopefully Wichard has a job waiting for him. (Again.)

Well, coaching was not his real profession. Procurement was.

Hard to read about these characters and not associate one or both with the term "pimp".

[OldPhiKap]

For the lawyers to so completely backtrack like this is really telling. I think someone got in Blake's ear and said, "come clean about everything-- no lies or coverups -- and you might stay out of jail. If you do anything other than fully cooperate you will be looking at full prosecution by the NC Attny. General and the NCAA is going to make it so that you never coach again."

The explanations for the payments are farcical. The notion that Blake had some horrible mortgage on a $600k house when he was getting hundreds of thousands of dollars from Oklahoma is a joke. The private school tuition is equally laughable.

I am telling you, Carolina's best hope is to get out front on this. They need to announce self-imposed penalties as soon as possible. They need to announce wholesale changes in their compliance department and need to make it clear that running a clean program is the single most important thing to them-- far ahead of winning games.

--Jason "this is gonna be very ugly for them" Evans

As a lawyer, I agree. The only thing I would add is that UNC is no doubt working with the NCAA, too. So I expect that there are more contrite discussions going on behind the scenes of which we are unaware. I disagree with those who read UNC's response is thumbing its nose at the NCAA. Their appeal last week was pretty pro forma, and I am pretty sure that they will work with the NCAA to do what they think will minimize the damage. The NCAA will understand if there are contractual reasons why they can't make a formal announcement on Davis until the investigation is done and/or the season is over.

(Although I agree that "the damage" is likely to be far worse than what happened wtih USC -- a program with a much richer football history, with what I would argue are lesser problems).

[OldPhiKap]

Well, coaching was not his real profession. Procurement was.

True dat.


Hard to read about these characters and not associate one or both with the term "pimp".

Don't denigrate hard-working professionals. As the great modern philosopher Big Daddy Kane noted, "pimpin' ain't easy."

[dpslaw]

Here's an excerpt from a recent letter to the editor of the Daily Tar Heel from Darren Webber, a senior majoring in Health Policy and Economics:

"Butch Davis came to this university to win, not to uphold academic integrity. Although I’m sure we would all like to think he came to make sure everyone on the football team does their homework, I think establishing a foundation for the future of UNC football might be a little higher on the list. If you want academic integrity, go to Duke."

[DukieInKansas]

Here's an excerpt from a recent letter to the editor of the Daily Tar Heel from Darren Webber, a senior majoring in Health Policy and Economics:

"Butch Davis came to this university to win, not to uphold academic integrity. Although I’m sure we would all like to think he came to make sure everyone on the football team does their homework, I think establishing a foundation for the future of UNC football might be a little higher on the list. If you want academic integrity, go to Duke."

Admissions better staff up. I think applications will go up - at least I hope that academic integrity is important enough that more people will take his advice and try to come to Duke.

[-bdbd]

Admissions better staff up. I think applications will go up - at least I hope that academic integrity is important enough that more people will take his advice and try to come to Duke.

Sigh. Not in this world.

Would only that at least half as many people could recite the top-10 academic rankings as can recite the top-10 football rankings.... He said muttering to himself as he walked away shaking his head.


:(

[JasonEvans]

Here's an excerpt from a recent letter to the editor of the Daily Tar Heel from Darren Webber, a senior majoring in Health Policy and Economics:

"Butch Davis came to this university to win, not to uphold academic integrity. Although I’m sure we would all like to think he came to make sure everyone on the football team does their homework, I think establishing a foundation for the future of UNC football might be a little higher on the list. If you want academic integrity, go to Duke."

Here is the full letter to the editor (http://www.dailytarheel.com/index.php/article/2010/10/davis_came_to_unc_to_win_not_uphold_integrity) from this idiot. His blind allegiance to athletics at the expense of ethics and morality are truly disgusting. He is almost a parody. Heck, I hope he is a parody. I would be disgusted if I was a fan of the same school as this guy.

--Jason "even Jerry Tarkanian and John Calipari would not want a guy like this on their side" Evans

[CameronBlue]

Admissions better staff up. I think applications will go up - at least I hope that academic integrity is important enough that more people will take his advice and try to come to Duke.

Mr. Webber is probably known for his jocularity around campus.

[striker219]

Here is the full letter to the editor (http://www.dailytarheel.com/index.php/article/2010/10/davis_came_to_unc_to_win_not_uphold_integrity) from this idiot. His blind allegiance to athletics at the expense of ethics and morality are truly disgusting. He is almost a parody. Heck, I hope he is a parody. I would be disgusted if I was a fan of the same school as this guy.

--Jason "even Jerry Tarkanian and John Calipari would not want a guy like this on their side" Evans

To be perfectly honest, this is the kind of thing I might do if I were really bored at work one night, although you'd hope that the DTH would check this guy out and make sure he's actually a student before publishing his letter. Of course, if this is a parody then so is half of InsideCarolina, and almost all of WildcatNation (not about this issue, but in general).

[Greg_Newton]

To be perfectly honest, this is the kind of thing I might do if I were really bored at work one night, although you'd hope that the DTH would check this guy out and make sure he's actually a student before publishing his letter. Of course, if this is a parody then so is half of InsideCarolina, and almost all of WildcatNation (not about this issue, but in general).

I was almost more shocked to find that he is a real student: http://my.unc.edu/dt?JSPTabContainer/HomeTabContainer.setSelected=JSPTabContainer%2FHom eTabContainer%2FDirectoryTabContainer&last=false&q=darren%20webber

I mean, "If you want academic integrity, go to Duke"... you can't make that stuff up!

[devilish]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/10/06/1742107/blake-called-prized-draft-pick.html#ixzz11ZqYfI38

If this phone call was made from Nebraska to UNC, then how did Butch not know there were problems with Blake?

[BD80]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/10/06/1742107/blake-called-prized-draft-pick.html#ixzz11ZqYfI38

If this phone call was made from Nebraska to UNC, then how did Butch not know there were problems with Blake?

I wonder who is paying the legal fees for Blake's defense? We are talking a defense that is going to run solid 6 figures, a maybe 7 figures the way the investigation is going. We are not just talking lawyer time, but the time for defense investigators to outdo the NCAA and Sectrary of State investigators, and then lawyer time processing the investigation results. With everything that is on the line, I'm wondering if Blake is getting a bit of help to ensure that he gets the best representation possible.

[OldPhiKap]

I wonder who is paying the legal fees for Blake's defense? We are talking a defense that is going to run solid 6 figures, a maybe 7 figures the way the investigation is going. We are not just talking lawyer time, but the time for defense investigators to outdo the NCAA and Sectrary of State investigators, and then lawyer time processing the investigation results. With everything that is on the line, I'm wondering if Blake is getting a bit of help to ensure that he gets the best representation possible.

Looks like that $74,500 separation pay ain't gonna be enough.

[budwom]

I have to think we're at the point now where Mr. Blake's and UNC's interests have irrevocably diverged. Hopefully the extremely capable Wade Smith will make this clear to Blake.

The NCAA has said that cracking down on unscrupulous agents is a priority. If they fail to whack a high profile institution like UNC, what credibility could they possibly have?
Anything is possible with the NCAA, but I have to think this won't end well for Butch and the Tarheel football program.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Looks like that $74,500 separation pay ain't gonna be enough.
I don't see why they are paying him anything, it seems pretty clearly he breached his contract with misconduct. I know he resigned, but if I were the university I'd be finding a way to cancel that check.

[OldPhiKap]

I don't see why they are paying him anything, it seems pretty clearly he breached his contract with misconduct. I know he resigned, but if I were the university I'd be finding a way to cancel that check.

Agreed. I'd make him sue to get a dime. Then countersue for a bazillion.

But that's what I do.

[sagegrouse]

I wonder who is paying the legal fees for Blake's defense? We are talking a defense that is going to run solid 6 figures, a maybe 7 figures the way the investigation is going. We are not just talking lawyer time, but the time for defense investigators to outdo the NCAA and Sectrary of State investigators, and then lawyer time processing the investigation results. With everything that is on the line, I'm wondering if Blake is getting a bit of help to ensure that he gets the best representation possible.

What are the threats to Blake? This is what the lawyers would be involved in countering or assisting. And it will drive the legal and investigative fees.

1. First, he doesn't have to cooperate with the NCAA or tell them anything. Those folks don't have subpoena power. But they do have the power to keep him from coaching in college. Not sure he has good job prospects even if completely exonerated (which he won't be).

2. Were the payments taxable income? If so, then the IRS and the State of North Carolina have a tax fraud case against him. I suspect he is busy building a defense against tax fraud or, perhaps, filing amended returns due to the "confusion" whether the payments were loans or gifts (neither taxable), or payment for services (taxable).

3. Fraudulent behavior? I am not a lawyer but it is hard to see how his behavior, aside from the tax issue, could be criminal. He is likely in violation of his contract, but it's a big leap to make that a criminal issue. I am not aware that NC has a law preventing "sports agents" from tampering with college athletes. Moreover, if he were just exercising his powers of persuasion on behalf of an agent, where's the crime?

4. UNC could go after its payments to him because of his actions and the violation of his contract. This could result in a sizable judgment, inasmuch as he was highly paid. Fat chance!!!! His attorneys would be quick to point out that he could spill the beans, or threaten to, on UNC, the coaches there, alumni boosters who may have crossed the line, etc., etc. And, of course, UNC would be correct in believing that Blake would say about anything to save his own skin.

5. Court of public opinion? Blake is gonna need a job pretty soon, whether in coaching or elsewhere, and public perceptions are important. An experienced trial attorney like Wade Smith could be a good spokesman for someone with all these problems and all these different threads to keep separate.

Anyway, the representation fees will be large. How large depends on whether Blake has to launch investigations to counter the NCAA or against some uncertain violation of state statutes aside from the tax law.

sagegrouse
'My two cents -- change cheerfully provided'

[CameronBornAndBred]

4. UNC could go after its payments to him because of his actions and the violation of his contract. This could result in a sizable judgment, inasmuch as he was highly paid. Fat chance!!!! His attorneys would be quick to point out that he could spill the beans, or threaten to, on UNC, the coaches there, alumni boosters who may have crossed the line, etc., etc. And, of course, UNC would be correct in believing that Blake would say about anything to save his own skin.

You might be right there..and if so that equals $75,000 of hush money.

[OldPhiKap]

^^ the fact that he is a state employee may bring several other issues into play. I assume there may be guidelines on outside employment, or income disclosure requirements. Perhaps not, though.


I just want to know when the Congressional hearing is going to be held on the issue of sports agents and the NCAA. If they can investigate BALCO, and the feds can chase Lance Armstrong for activities he may have taken in Europe, I don't see why this issue shouldn't be drug through the righteous indignation of a few congressional subcommittee hearings.

Subpoena Blake, and get to the bottom of it or make him plead the Fifth. (Or, Fiz-ifth as Dave Chapelle would say).

[El_Diablo]

2. Were the payments taxable income? If so, then the IRS and the State of North Carolina have a tax fraud case against him. I suspect he is busy building a defense against tax fraud or, perhaps, filing amended returns due to the "confusion" whether the payments were loans or gifts (neither taxable), or payment for services (taxable).

3. Fraudulent behavior? I am not a lawyer but it is hard to see how his behavior, aside from the tax issue, could be criminal. He is likely in violation of his contract, but it's a big leap to make that a criminal issue. I am not aware that NC has a law preventing "sports agents" from tampering with college athletes. Moreover, if he were just exercising his powers of persuasion on behalf of an agent, where's the crime?


2. Even if the payments were gifts, they are taxable for any value beyond the annual exclusion (I think it's $13,000 now). There are also exclusions for education, so that's probably why we've seen fabricated references to some gifts being meant to pay for Blake's son's private school tuition...the lawyers are looking ahead at the tax issues.

3. There is a NC law regarding sports agents. Here's a brief discussion, although it doesn't cite the statutes:
http://www.news-record.com/content/2010/07/23/article/editorial_policing_sports_agents

[El_Diablo]

Here's a more robust discussion of NC law regarding sports agents:

http://www.secretary.state.nc.us/athlete/athfaq.aspx

It also includes a link to the statute (in PDF). The juicy part, for both Blake and Wichard:


An athlete agent, with the intent to induce a student-athlete to enter into an agency contract, shall not:

1. Give any materially false or misleading information or make a materially false promise or representation
2. Furnish anything of value to a student-athlete before the student-athlete enters into the agency contract;
3. Furnish anything of value to any individual other than the student-athlete or another registered agent.

An individual who violates these provisions is guilty of a Class I felony.

[sagegrouse]

2. Even if the payments were gifts, they are taxable for any value beyond the annual exclusion (I think it's $13,000 now). There are also exclusions for education, so that's probably why we've seen fabricated references to some gifts being meant to pay for Blake's son's private school tuition...the lawyers are looking ahead at the tax issues.



Gift taxes are paid by the giver, I believe, not the recipient, and it is an estate tax matter rather than ordinary income.

sagegrouse

[sagegrouse]

Here's a more robust discussion of NC law regarding sports agents:

http://www.secretary.state.nc.us/athlete/athfaq.aspx

It also includes a link to the statute (in PDF). The juicy part, for both Blake and Wichard

"An athlete agent, with the intent to induce a student-athlete to enter into an agency contract, shall not:

"1. Give any materially false or misleading information or make a materially false promise or representation
"2. Furnish anything of value to a student-athlete before the student-athlete enters into the agency contract;
"3. Furnish anything of value to any individual other than the student-athlete or another registered agent.

"An individual who violates these provisions is guilty of a Class I felony."

Thanks for the reference, El Diable.

No. 3 looks like a problem for Wichard. No. 2 could be a problem for Blake, it he is determined to be an agent, registered or not. I don't know how his contact with athletes outside the state would be judged.

sagegrouse

[OldPhiKap]

Gift taxes are paid by the giver, I believe, not the recipient, and it is an estate tax matter rather than ordinary income.

sagegrouse

Not a tax lawyer, but I think it is reportable income to the recipient if it is over a certain amount. If you borrow money from me, and pay it back, I have to report the interest as income. If it is a sham loan, though, and really a gift, you have received an income for which taxes may be due. Assuming no familial relationship, of course.

Estate taxes are a different issue -- it involves the taxation of the corpus of a decedent's estate as it is distributed to heirs. You can lessen your taxable estate by gifting a certain amount of money per recipient per year up to some set amount. That is a different kind of "gift."

Of course, anyone in the tax field can point out how incorrect my memory of classes gone by may be.

[El_Diablo]

Thanks for the reference, El Diable.

No. 3 looks like a problem for Wichard. No. 2 could be a problem for Blake, it he is determined to be an agent, registered or not. I don't know how his contact with athletes outside the state would be judged.

sagegrouse

There's a case to be made for Blake meeting the definition of an "athlete agent" under the NC statute's definition of the term:

"Athlete agent. - An individual who enters into an agency contract with a student-athlete or, directly or indirectly, recruits or solicits a student-athlete to enter into an agency contract."

If Blake was calling up student-athletes and trying to get them to sign with Wichard, then he was technically soliciting their entrance into a contract. Although it's also possible to construe this definition as meaning that the solicitation must be on one's own behalf (since that's how the first part of the definition is structured). If that were the case, then only Wichard would likely be on the hook for criminal and civil penalties, because he was indirectly soliciting the players (through Blake).

Meanwhile, UNC would have grounds for a civil suit if they were to suffer economic damages from NCAA penalties:


§ 78C-100. Civil remedies.
(a) An educational institution has a right of action against an athlete agent or a former student-athlete for damages caused by a violation of this Article. In an action under this section, the court may award costs and reasonable attorneys' fees to the prevailing party.
(b) Damages suffered by an educational institution under subsection (a) of this section include losses and expenses incurred because, as a result of the conduct of an athlete agent or former student-athlete, the educational institution was injured by a violation of this Article or was penalized, disqualified, or suspended from participation in athletics by: (i) a national association for the promotion and regulation of athletics; (ii) an athletic conference; or (iii) reasonable self-imposed disciplinary action taken to mitigate sanctions likely to be imposed by an athletic organization.

[sagegrouse]

Not a tax lawyer, but I think it is reportable income to the recipient if it is over a certain amount. If you borrow money from me, and pay it back, I have to report the interest as income. If it is a sham loan, though, and really a gift, you have received an income for which taxes may be due. Assuming no familial relationship, of course.

Estate taxes are a different issue -- it involves the taxation of the corpus of a decedent's estate as it is distributed to heirs. You can lessen your taxable estate by gifting a certain amount of money per recipient per year up to some set amount. That is a different kind of "gift."

Of course, anyone in the tax field can point out how incorrect my memory of classes gone by may be.

The law on taxes on excess gifts makes it the responsibility of the donor. The amount above the $13,000 limit per person (or $26K is you and your spouse gift someone) eats into the deductible amount for estate taxes ("unitary exclusion") and -- usually-- does not result in immediate tax obligations.

If you make an amount in excess of the limit (such as to help finance the purchase of a home by a son or daughter), usually it is done in the form of a loan and then a certain amount of the loan is forgiven every year.

Here is the IRS FAQ on the subject:

"Who pays the gift tax?

"The donor is generally responsible for paying the gift tax. Under special arrangements the donee may agree to pay the tax instead. Please visit with your tax professional if you are considering this type of arrangement."

Anyway, HERE (http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p950.pdf) is the IRS Publication. No one really pays gift tax, until the amounts are up into the millions (which makes it far less relevant to us dopes on DBR): you are allowed to use your exemption for estate tax (really uncertain what it will be in the future) against the amount of the gift. This is called the "unitary exclusion." And you will note that the IRS forms for gift taxes are mostly about estate matters (generation-skipping trusts, QTIPs, etc.). God, it's awful to be old!

What were we talking about? Oh, yeah. Go to hell, Carolina!

sagegrouse

[OldPhiKap]

The law on taxes on excess gifts makes it the responsibility of the donor. The amount above the $13,000 limit per person (or $26K is you and your spouse gift someone) eats into the deductible amount for estate taxes ("unitary exclusion") and -- usually-- does not result in immediate tax obligations.

If you make an amount in excess of the limit (such as to help finance the purchase of a home by a son or daughter), usually it is done in the form of a loan and then a certain amount of the loan is forgiven every year.

Here is the IRS FAQ on the subject:

"Who pays the gift tax?

"The donor is generally responsible for paying the gift tax. Under special arrangements the donee may agree to pay the tax instead. Please visit with your tax professional if you are considering this type of arrangement."

Anyway, HERE (http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p950.pdf) is the IRS Publication. No one really pays gift tax, until the amounts are up into the millions (which makes it far less relevant to us dopes on DBR): you are allowed to use your exemption for estate tax (really uncertain what it will be in the future) against the amount of the gift. This is called the "unitary exclusion." And you will note that the IRS forms for gift taxes are mostly about estate matters (generation-skipping trusts, QTIPs, etc.). God, it's awful to be old!

What were we talking about? Oh, yeah. Go to hell, Carolina!

sagegrouse

But what about the Rule in Shelley's Case?

In any event -- 9F 9F 9F.

[DukieInKansas]

2. Even if the payments were gifts, they are taxable for any value beyond the annual exclusion (I think it's $13,000 now). There are also exclusions for education, so that's probably why we've seen fabricated references to some gifts being meant to pay for Blake's son's private school tuition...the lawyers are looking ahead at the tax issues.

3. There is a NC law regarding sports agents. Here's a brief discussion, although it doesn't cite the statutes:
http://www.news-record.com/content/2010/07/23/article/editorial_policing_sports_agents

Any gift tax would be due from the person who gave the gift and not from the person receiving the gift.

eta - sorry, didn't see Sagegrouse's responses prior to posting this. The Sagegrouse is correct. That must be why sage is in his name. :-)

[Indoor66]

But what about the Rule in Shelley's Case?

In any event -- 9F 9F 9F.

Probably more of a Statute of Uses question.

[OldPhiKap]

Probably more of a Statute of Uses question.

Usufruct.


There, I said it.



(A in, "Commentators often said that Sheldon Williams owned the paint. However, in fact, the manner in which he dominated the lane was merely usufructuary.")

[Indoor66]

Usufruct.


There, I said it.



(A in, "Commentators often said that Sheldon Williams owned the paint. However, in fact, the manner in which he dominated the lane was merely usufructuary.")

In this situation, bring up Williams may violate The Rule Against Purpetuities.

[OldPhiKap]

In this situation, bring up Williams may violate The Rule Against Purpetuities.

Has it been +21 years already?


Oh, and how many Carolina players are still ineligible this weekend?

[CameronBornAndBred]

Has it been +21 years already?


Oh, and how many Carolina players are still ineligible this weekend?
At least one less than their last game.
http://www.wralsportsfan.com/college_football/story/8409741/

[CameronBornAndBred]

And so they are looking at all sports..which is not surprising. There are a few quotes in here from the chancellor that Davis can not be feeling good about though.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/story/8416965/



When asked if it was appropriate for Davis to hire a tutor who worked with his players to assist his son, Thorp was clear. "No," he said.

Thorp expressed concern that Davis seemingly did not know what was going on with his football players and his program but defended the financial settlement reached with former assistant football coach John Blake. Blake stepped down Sept. 5 and has been linked to agents and players on other teams.