Army 35, Duke 21 Post Game Thread

[Bob Green]

Discuss the game here. Duke had five turnovers and Army had zero.

[loran16]

Positives:

We blocked a kick. That is all.

Negatives:

The Offense today failed to shine as it did previously. We need to realize that while Renfree may in fact be more talented than Thad and the WRs are really good and the Running game is the best it's been in ages....this is still a young, immature team. On the first interception, Renfree was looking at Vernon the entire way. Easy for the Defender to jump the route. The 2nd Int was similar, though it was a longer throw. Meanwhile, Austin Kelly and Donovan Varner seemed oddly ignored by Renfree. He has multiple good weapons, he needs to use them. The Defense is bad, but the offense cannot make mistakes, and of course CANNOT make turnovers.

The Defense: Army may be better than last year. They probably are. And the D is young. but it shows no signs of improving, even when they know exactly what is coming. I'll give them a break for the two passing TDs...they were basically giving up passing plays intentionally. But when you sell out to get the run, you have to do it. Missed tackles everywhere, and god, really, for 3 years now we have been unable to deal with the triple option when they run the toss to either side. It drives me insane.

Play Calling: Listen. I Trust Cut. But today was a must-win game, and it was HOMECOMING. And the team just seemed to treat the game as lost way too early. Late 3rd quarter, we started running every play. Now our running game is much improved and really effective, but that's NOT THE TIME TO RUSH EVERY PLAY.
Then we punted down 21 from the 50 yard line (WHY?!).
Then we didn't do an onside kick when we scored our 2nd TD.
It seemed like we didn't want to try to win at that point, which was embarrassing. Make the Effort please guys.

--------------------------------------------------

On a personal note, I couldn't find the DBR guys (Devil in a blue dress, CB&B) in their tents pre games. Next time, I'll make sure to get better directions.

[NYC Duke Fan]

How come Stanford, Northwestern and Vanderbilt, all schools with an academic excellence similar to Duke's can field competitive football teams and Duke cannot?

Duke might not win another game this year which would mean that the program is going backward not forward.

[Bob Green]

How come Stanford, Northwestern and Vanderbilt, all schools with an academic excellence similar to Duke's can field competitive football teams and Duke cannot?

Duke might not win another game this year which would mean that the program is going backward not forward.

While all evidence indicates this will be a very tough season, and you may be correct in that Duke might finish 1-11 (hey, anything is possible), I disagree it would indicate we are moving backwards. This season is a transition season. Our team is extremely young. Do not give up on Duke football. Coach Cutcliffe is doing a great job increasing the talent level Duke is able to place on the field and this team will turn the corner. What we all need right now is faith and patience!

[loran16]

How come Stanford, Northwestern and Vanderbilt, all schools with an academic excellence similar to Duke's can field competitive football teams and Duke cannot?

Duke might not win another game this year which would mean that the program is going backward not forward.

Can we stop with the freaking hyperbole and gloom & doom? Duke played poorly. But we knew this was going to be a rebuilding year (the Defense was completely untested due to graduations) with a new QB.

This season's not over yet. We can still get to 4 wins possibly, maybe more, maybe less. Next season, we'll have an experienced QB and experienced O, as well as a more experienced D. Then we should be ready to make a bowl run.

This is not a fast rebuilding process. It requires time.

[Duvall]

How come Stanford, Northwestern and Vanderbilt, all schools with an academic excellence similar to Duke's can field competitive football teams and Duke cannot?

"Has not" should not be confused with "can not."

[DevilHorns]

Sat, Oct 02 Maryland * - at College Park, Md. 6:00 p.m.
Sat, Oct 16 Miami * - Durham, N.C. TBA
Sat, Oct 23 Virginia Tech * - at Blacksburg, Va. TBA
Sat, Oct 30 Navy - at Annapolis, Md. 3:30 p.m.
Sat, Nov 06 Virginia * - Durham, N.C. TBA
Sat, Nov 13 Boston College * - Durham, N.C. TBA
Sat, Nov 20 Georgia Tech * - at Atlanta, Ga. TBA
Sat, Nov 27 North Carolina * - Durham, N.C. TBA

1-11?

I think we have legitimate/fairly plausible chances home versus UVA, away at Navy, and home versus UNC. I also think away at Maryland and home versus BC may be more competitive than most think.

Now if we play like we did today for the rest of the year, we'll go 1-11.

[Bluedog]

While I think Cut is a great coach and the right guy for the job, this loss was inexcusable and embarrassing. I don't know if it was poor preparation, execution, apathy, or what, but the team just didn't seem in it and got outplayed, outhustled and manhandled by an Army team that on paper should be nowhere near Duke's level. And while I agree this is somewhat a "rebuilding year," Cut has been coach three years already so we shouldn't use that as an excuse. A rebuilding year should not include a loss to Army. And while somebody above asks why Stanford, Northwestern, and Vanderbilt can do it and we can, there's no way you can compare us to Stanford from the academic admissions standpoint for football players. Stanford is far far FAR tougher to get recruited and offered from. It's not even close. Cut is given HUGE leeway with who he recruits; obviously, we're still not like Arkansas, but the team (last it was published) averages something like 1000 on the SAT which is the national average (i.e. what most Duke students probably score in 7th grade) and way way behind the rest of the student population. I'm not saying that we shouldn't give football players an extra boost, but Stanford somehow manages to do it with 1200+ SAT Math + Verbal players all the time. They got a top ten recruiting class this year. Duke admissions is more like Notre Dame. While both schools get still decent students and graduate them, the admissions standards aren't that ridiculously stringent. I hate to break it to you. Northwestern and Vanderbilt and supposedly similar too, so I'm not saying we're the only ones. Stanford is really unique as a BCS school in this regard. But great football players who are also great students are more likely to choose Duke over say Minnesota precisely because they are good students and care about academics - and getting the chance to play at one of the best academic schools in the nation is appealing.

Andrew Luck (Stanford's QB) supposedly was highly interested in Duke (a great student and player), but Cut didn't offer him. Not saying we necessarily needed another QB, but I like to keep options open. It seems like Cut tries to find more "underrated" 2-star players in the North Carolina/Georgia areas rather than simply going to the Stanford approach and offering every rivals 4 star player that has a 3.5+ GPA with an SAT higher than 1200 in the entire country. And, there aren't many of those at all. It seems like Cut isn't really trying to get all of them, and I have no idea why. Again, I have faith in Cut and think he can get the job done and is the right guy. He is a great football mind and a solid leader, but obviously something went wrong today and I feel disheartened. I think recruiting can and NEEDS to get better. And we need to be more mentally prepared for EVERY game.

[Bob Green]

1-11?



I stated 1-11 as a worse case scenario in response to a previous negative post. It was not a prediction.

[DevilHorns]

I stated 1-11 as a worse case scenario in response to a previous negative post. It was not a prediction.

Nevermind on that then :o

The question is, what do we do to move forward. I didn't have a chance to watch the game today, but I did watch earlier games in the year, including the Wake game.

If our offense against Wake is reproduced in any of the games that I mentioned earlier, and if we make adjustments on defense that even make us even only marginally better, I think we can win in a shoot out (at least a few more games this year).

[A-Tex Devil]

Nevermind on that then :o

The question is, what do we do to move forward. I didn't have a chance to watch the game today, but I did watch earlier games in the year, including the Wake game.

If our offense against Wake is reproduced in any of the games that I mentioned earlier, and if we make adjustments on defense that even make us even only marginally better, I think we can win in a shoot out (at least a few more games this year).

Cutcliffe just lipstick on a pig? We can't lose to Army and pretend to be up and coming. Sorry.

[Bluedog]

Cutcliffe just lipstick on a pig? We can't lose to Army and pretend to be up and coming. Sorry.

And you can't get spanked by UCLA and be a national title contender. ;) Haha, just couldn't resist, sorry. I agree with your sentiment, but I still do have faith in Cutcliffe.

[PSurprise]

Sounds like someone needs to step up on this team and tell the rest that these last three games were NOT acceptable. They need to find some leaders on the field and in the locker room. Duke should not be losing to teams like Army. That's just the plain truth. If they ever want to the get the full support of the student body and community they need to show that they can beat the Armies and Navies (and UVAs and MDs). It seems that every time there's a step forward, it's two (or three) steps back, not withstanding Alabama last week.

I thought we'd be even more ready after facing someone like Alabama showing us what a real D-1 football team is like. After a game like this, I'm not sure what to think about this team.

I fully trust and support Cut and his staff, but improvements NEED to be made. Maybe they should go back to springtime and have everyone try out again for their positions? Blech! This makes me ill!!

[Bob Green]

If they ever want to the get the full support of the student body and community they need to show that they can beat the Armies and Navies (and UVAs and MDs). It seems that every time there's a step forward, it's two (or three) steps back, not withstanding Alabama last week.

Once again, I am going to have to disagree. The full suport of the student body and community should be a given whether the team wins or loses. Perhaps the problem isn't with the football team but rather resides with the fan base?

[Bluedog]

Once again, I am going to have to disagree. The full suport of the student body and community should be a given whether the team wins or loses. Perhaps the problem isn't with the football team but rather resides with the fan base?

I vote for both...somewhat. But you're really preaching to the choir, Bob, in this case since the people posting on DBR are the more fervent fans that are the most likely to attend games (and do attend). It's the casual fan (that doesn't post on DBR) that you need to entice to go to games for it to be a full crowd. And the casual fan will only go if the product on the field is good. And, unfortunately, it hasn't been this season.

[4decadedukie]

Once again, I am going to have to disagree. The full suport of the student body and community should be a given whether the team wins or loses. Perhaps the problem isn't with the football team but rather resides with the fan base?

Bob - I absolutely agree. With that said, I am sad, disheartened, and somewhat disgusted at this loss.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Today's game was nothing short of embarrassing. The offense, the quarterback and the play calling for 3 quarters was putrid. A definite step backwards for the program.

Where the hell were the students today? They didn't know in advance what the game was going to bring. Their section was noticeably not full, almost barren, at the beginning of the game. They can't use a 3 pm start at homecoming as an excuse. They were AWOL as was the offensive team.

I am not happy. Next play. Next game.

[devildeac]

Today's game was nothing short of embarrassing. The offense, the quarterback and the play calling for 3 quarters was putrid. A definite step backwards for the program.

Where the hell were the students today? They didn't know in advance what the game was going to bring. Their section was noticeably not full, almost barren, at the beginning of the game. They can't use a 3 pm start at homecoming as an excuse. They were AWOL as was the offensive team.

I am not happy. Next play. Next game.

You forgot to include the _efense that really didn't show up today either. ~250 yds rushing, 2 TD to WIDE open Army receivers, 8/17 third down conversions, 0 TO, 40 minutes of possession by the Cadets and serious difficulties tackling.

[Bob Green]

...2 TD to WIDE open Army receivers...

In post game comments, Coach Cutcliffe took responsibility for the 2nd half Army passing touchdowns due to over aggressive play calling by the coaching staff.

[devildeac]

In post game comments, Coach Cutcliffe took responsibility for the 2nd half Army passing touchdowns due to over aggressive play calling by the coaching staff.

Good. I admire him for that. But I don't think we had a guy within 7-8 yards of their receivers. Not the first time this year that has happened. IIRC, it occurred x2 vs WFU and perhaps another couple times vs 'Bama. Your 1st post on the thread was another major reason for today's debacle. Our 5 TO resulted in 4 TD for Army (according to the summary and my memory).

[Bob Green]

Good. I admire him for that. But I don't think we had a guy within 7-8 yards of their receivers. Not the first time this year that has happened. IIRC, it occurred x2 vs WFU and perhaps another couple times vs 'Bama. Your 1st post on the thread was another major reason for today's debacle. Our 5 TO resulted in 4 TD for Army (according to the summary and my memory).

Agreed. And I understand those of you who were actually at the game do not have the luxury of listening to post game comments via the Internet.

[NYC Duke Fan]

While all evidence indicates this will be a very tough season, and you may be correct in that Duke might finish 1-11 (hey, anything is possible), I disagree it would indicate we are moving backwards. This season is a transition season. Our team is extremely young. Do not give up on Duke football. Coach Cutcliffe is doing a great job increasing the talent level Duke is able to place on the field and this team will turn the corner. What we all need right now is faith and patience!

I agree with you that Coach Cut is the right guy but how if we somehow go 1-11 with our only win being against Elon can it be said that the program is not going backward?

I could be mistaken but I think I remember some posts after last year's season saying that we could challenge for a bowl bid this year.

[NYC Duke Fan]

Once again, I am going to have to disagree. The full suport of the student body and community should be a given whether the team wins or loses. Perhaps the problem isn't with the football team but rather resides with the fan base?

If the team plays poorly as it did today what difference would it have made if the stadium was overflowing with standing room only?

If you have the players and are properly prepared you should win even if nobody came and cheered.

[-jk]

I agree with you that Coach Cut is the right guy but how if we somehow go 1-11 with our only win being against Elon can it be said that the program is not going backward?

I could be mistaken but I think I remember some posts after last year's season saying that we could challenge for a bowl bid this year.

Not to compare Cut with K, but K's first season he took us to the NIT. Second and third seasons, not so good - 10 and 11 wins, respectively. Fourth season, to the NCAAs.

And K wasn't digging Duke out of a 20 year slump.

This rebuilding will take time. And it takes more time in football than basketball.

-jk

[johnb]

Without 4 star players, we'll get crushed by top ten teams and will have a thin margin of error against average division 1 teams. A couple of plays (interceptions) go differently today, and the day would be different--but we're still not at an elite talent level.

For Cut to be successful, he needs to convince a bunch of kids every year to come to Duke over their respective state schools. And that's doable, but tough.

Hey, I'll look forward to each of these games (as long as we put forth a good faith effort), and if we lose em all, so be it.

Go devils

[NYC Duke Fan]

We seemed to be better last year and I thought that we would build on that. I know that it is only 4 games, but we seem worse this year and looking at the schedule and losing to Army at home on homecoming, there is a possibility that we could go 1-11 and I don't care about any of the rationalization that would be a big step backward for the program. I don't understand how asnyone can say that if that happened that it would not be a big step in the wrong direction.

[6th Man]

I love Duke and I love Coach Cutcliffe. I have been to every home game (and some on the road) for several years now. I will continue to support them. But, I will have to say that I was really disappointed today. For me, if Duke goes 1-11, but improves and fights their butts off every game...I can live with that. However, today I saw a team that had no energy and in my opinion showed no grit or fight at all. There were a few players trying hard, but overall just a bad effort. The team looked slow and overall just an awful game to watch. You turn on TV and watch other games when you get home and it's not even like watching the same sport. I never tell my wife this, but in the third quarter I told her this is one of the days where you wish you hadn't made the 2 hour drive to Wallace Wade.

I'll still be there each and every home game because I am determined that I will see Duke win in football, but today was a bad day in Wallace Wade. For me, it's not about a loss, but just giving a good effort. No spirit or effort today.

[Acymetric]

Without 4 star players, we'll get crushed by top ten teams and will have a thin margin of error against average division 1 teams. A couple of plays (interceptions) go differently today, and the day would be different--but we're still not at an elite talent level.

For Cut to be successful, he needs to convince a bunch of kids every year to come to Duke over their respective state schools. And that's doable, but tough.

Hey, I'll look forward to each of these games (as long as we put forth a good faith effort), and if we lose em all, so be it.

Go devils

Do people REALLY think we were getting that from the coaches today? Army was getting to the outside constantly. No adjustments. There were visiting recruits calling out the coaching staff for running a cover 2 against an option team (maybe our d-coordinator was thinking ahead to Maryland? I have no explanation for why this was happening). Down multiple scores in the 3rd we inexplicably abandoned the pass. Were we going to score 4 unanswered touchdowns in 1 and a half quarters by chewing up as much time on each drive as possible?

I remain a strong supporter of Cutcliffe, but given the extremely questionable playcalling on both sides of the ball I think it is pretty fair to wonder if we have the right guys in place at the coordinator positions (this isn't new, I think that argument could have been made after any game this season, and quite honestly on the offensive side the previous 2 as well).

I'll be at all the home games except BC (schedule conflict, unfortunately) this year pulling for our team, but unless something changes I don't see another win on our schedule this year, and if we go 1-11 its hard for me to think that we'll be able to hang on to either our recruits or our fans...and we need both if we're ever going to take that next step forward. I hope our coaches figure something out soon, and I hope that there are guys in the locker room ready to stand up and demand more from their fellow players. I could tell Connor was pissed to be losing like that by looking at him on the sidelines, I didn't feel like I was getting that vibe from all the players.

People can talk all they want about rebuilding, but I was lead to believe that with Cut at the helm things wouldn't get this bad again. Today didn't feel any better than watching Roof coached teams in years past (first try: passed...got QB on the brain I guess ;)).

Go Duke, let's bring it against MD!

[6th Man]

Do people REALLY think we were getting that from the coaches today? Army was getting to the outside constantly. No adjustments. There were visiting recruits calling out the coaching staff for running a cover 2 against an option team (maybe our d-coordinator was thinking ahead to Maryland? I have no explanation for why this was happening). Down multiple scores in the 3rd we inexplicably abandoned the pass. Were we going to score 4 unanswered touchdowns in 1 and a half quarters by chewing up as much time on each drive as possible?

I remain a strong supporter of Cutcliffe, but given the extremely questionable playcalling on both sides of the ball I think it is pretty fair to wonder if we have the right guys in place at the coordinator positions (this isn't new, I think that argument could have been made after any game this season, and quite honestly on the offensive side the previous 2 as well).

I'll be at all the home games except BC (schedule conflict, unfortunately) this year pulling for our team, but unless something changes I don't see another win on our schedule this year, and if we go 1-11 its hard for me to think that we'll be able to hang on to either our recruits or our fans...and we need both if we're ever going to take that next step forward. I hope our coaches figure something out soon, and I hope that there are guys in the locker room ready to stand up and demand more from their fellow players. I could tell Connor was pissed to be losing like that by looking at him on the sidelines, I didn't feel like I was getting that vibe from all the players.

People can talk all they want about rebuilding, but I was lead to believe that with Cut at the helm things wouldn't get this bad again. Today didn't feel any better than watching Roof coached teams in years past (first try: passed...got QB on the brain I guess ;)).

Go Duke, let's bring it against MD!

When I mentioned effort by just a few, Vernon was one of the few. I didn't see him on the sidelines, but it does not surprise me that he appeared mad. I'm nobody to question coaching, but I would love to see Sneed get the ball more. Kid make plays. I feel like the continuous subbing of Scott and Sneed allows neither to get in the flow. I like Desmond as well, but Sneed showed me some stuff against Bama. We need to utilize both, but I would like for one of those guys to get more continuous carries. It would also be interesting to know what our defense would be like had we not lost our coordinator. I know we lost alot of players, but wow! And again, no life in the team today or effort...except by just a few. I agree with you on the pre-Cutcliffe era. This felt and stung like pre-Cutcliffe days.

[mkline09]

Do people REALLY think we were getting that from the coaches today? Army was getting to the outside constantly. No adjustments. There were visiting recruits calling out the coaching staff for running a cover 2 against an option team (maybe our d-coordinator was thinking ahead to Maryland? I have no explanation for why this was happening). Down multiple scores in the 3rd we inexplicably abandoned the pass. Were we going to score 4 unanswered touchdowns in 1 and a half quarters by chewing up as much time on each drive as possible?

I remain a strong supporter of Cutcliffe, but given the extremely questionable playcalling on both sides of the ball I think it is pretty fair to wonder if we have the right guys in place at the coordinator positions (this isn't new, I think that argument could have been made after any game this season, and quite honestly on the offensive side the previous 2 as well).

I'll be at all the home games except BC (schedule conflict, unfortunately) this year pulling for our team, but unless something changes I don't see another win on our schedule this year, and if we go 1-11 its hard for me to think that we'll be able to hang on to either our recruits or our fans...and we need both if we're ever going to take that next step forward. I hope our coaches figure something out soon, and I hope that there are guys in the locker room ready to stand up and demand more from their fellow players. I could tell Connor was pissed to be losing like that by looking at him on the sidelines, I didn't feel like I was getting that vibe from all the players.

People can talk all they want about rebuilding, but I was lead to believe that with Cut at the helm things wouldn't get this bad again. Today didn't feel any better than watching Roof coached teams in years past (first try: passed...got QB on the brain I guess ;)).

I share your sentiments and agree with a lot of what you are saying. I expected a bit of a down year given Duke was losing Thad, and some key defensive players in Vinny, Vince, and Leon. That being said I think the thing that frustrates me is the fact that from just appearances it seems as if the effort just wasn't there. For Duke to go to another level they have to be able to consistently beat teams like Army. I can forgive the Wake game, and of course the Alabama game, but losing to Army like this is not good. A loss is one thing but a lop sided loss in a game that should at least be competitive is inexcusable. There is still time to turn it around but not with the effort that was shown today. The team needs to come together and agree to not let that happen again. I'm fine with 1-11 as someone else said as long as there is good effort, but that didn't appear to be the case today. Very frustrating.

[Son of Jarhead]

If the team plays poorly as it did today what difference would it have made if the stadium was overflowing with standing room only?

If you have the players and are properly prepared you should win even if nobody came and cheered.

We played very poorly today, which took what crowd there was completely out of it. A loud & supportive crowd can have a tremendous impact on a team's performance. We see the effect every year inside Cameron. A similar enviroment inside Wallace Wade would pick up the football team the same way the Crazies pick up the basketball team. I recall a football game many years ago ('89 w/ Spurrier?) when Duke was playing a nationally ranked (#6?) Clemson team in Wade... the players & coaches put themselves in a position to win, but I am sure that as the game went on, the crowd support gave the players just that little extra push they needed to close the deal on the upset. (My favorite memory: as Randy Cuthbert was carrying the pile towards the goal-line, the crowd got louder with every yard & Randy drove on stronger with every decibel.) It may not have helped pull the team out of whatever funk they were in today, but we'll never know. If we had the best players they may not need a good crowd, but the guys we have now need a better crowd.

[SharkD]

We played very poorly today, which took what crowd there was completely out of it. A loud & supportive crowd can have a tremendous impact on a team's performance. We see the effect every year inside Cameron. A similar enviroment inside Wallace Wade would pick up the football team the same way the Crazies pick up the basketball team. I recall a football game many years ago ('89 w/ Spurrier?) when Duke was playing a nationally ranked (#6?) Clemson team in Wade... the players & coaches put themselves in a position to win, but I am sure that as the game went on, the crowd support gave the players just that little extra push they needed to close the deal on the upset. (My favorite memory: as Randy Cuthbert was carrying the pile towards the goal-line, the crowd got louder with every yard & Randy drove on stronger with every decibel.) It may not have helped pull the team out of whatever funk they were in today, but we'll never know. If we had the best players they may not need a good crowd, but the guys we have now need a better crowd.

I think it was very telling that after the 60-yard pass for touchdown in the 4th quarter, the crowd was mostly silent... and the scoreboard began playing Kernkraft 400 (really, we want to emulate Wake/UMD?) with the sound of the "crowd" singing along coming only from the scoreboard.

After the second interception in the first quarter, the crowd began ebbing out of the stadium and I wonder if that had an impact on the team's morale. The General Admin and Student Sections were sparsely populated and the lots (well, at least the B-5 lot) were only about 70% filled, even at kickoff.

[Acymetric]

I think it was very telling that after the 60-yard pass for touchdown in the 4th quarter, the crowd was mostly silent... and the scoreboard began playing Kernkraft 400 (really, we want to emulate Wake/UMD?) with the sound of the "crowd" singing along coming only from the scoreboard.

After the second interception in the first quarter, the crowd began ebbing out of the stadium and I wonder if that had an impact on the team's morale. The General Admin and Student Sections were sparsely populated and the lots (well, at least the B-5 lot) were only about 70% filled, even at kickoff.

I think most in the crowd felt (as I did) that the team (read: coaches) was no longer playing to win after the playcalling/personnel decisions of the 3rd quarter. Plus I'm almost certain that our 4th quarter success came against their 2nd team (not something to really celebrate against army).

Oh. I should mention on a more positive note that I love our o-line this year. They are playing their hearts out and playing well. Wish we could capitalize on that.

[johnb]

There were visiting recruits calling out the coaching staff for running a cover 2 against an option team (maybe our d-coordinator was thinking ahead to Maryland?

You saw this in the stands?

[Acymetric]

You saw this in the stands?

Yes, this really happened. I believe it was some of the Mecklenburg kids.

[DevilHorns]

My thoughts on student support:

In a perfect world Duke students would support the football team without concern on how they perform on the field, no matter if they only win 1 or 2 games a year. They would take pride in their team like the rest of our obsessed college football nation. The truth is there are key differences in demographics regarding Duke vs the local State U that has no problem filling their stadium.

The Duke undergraduate population is a little over 6000 total (I think most would agree that you can't count graduate students as they are likely aligned with their undergraduate team). That is significantly smaller compared to the average State U that we see on tv all the time. If Duke had 18000 undergraduates like UNC or 24000 undergraduates like NC State they would have a much easier time filling Wallace Wade by sheer numbers alone. Second of all, Duke attracts students from all over the nation. More than half of Duke students are not from North Carolina. Most are not Duke fans (even basketball fans) before they step foot on campus. That is not the case for the majority of UNC and NC State fans that come from local communities and nearby cities that perpetuate a culture to support their local state team. There are family traditions for Duke as well, don't get me wrong, but not even close numbers-wise as there are for the average State U. If I had to guess UNC fans outnumber Duke fans at least 3:1 in Durham. There isn't a large local culture that supports Duke the way there is for the local State U. That's just one of the pit-falls of having a very close local monster state school in UNC. Durham is not a college town in any sense, and as most probably agree, Duke is in many ways estranged from Durham.

And though this may explain some part of the abysmal student fan support....

As a Duke grad (T'06), I fully admit that there is a problem of perpetuated campus culture regarding the football team. As the team has been terrible for years students have developed a unique tailgating experience that emphasizes the party (and almost completely omits the pretense of using the experience as a bridge to go to Wallace Wade and support the team). In my last years at Duke the administration changed the rules regarding tailgate making it end by the beginning of the game. I'm not sure if there have been any other changes that have tried to redirect the culture.

There is one unique aspect of Duke that may actually help change the general student mentality regarding football support... the separation of East and West campus, and subsequently, the separation of freshmen from upperclassmen influence. I remember my freshman year the first game I went to was against ECU (I believe it was the first game of the year!) and we won in stunning fashion with a last second field goal and stormed the field. Tore down the posts! There were literally only freshmen there that night in the pouring rain screaming. It was awesome. One of my favorite Duke memories.

[jlear]

It is stated here over and over that our talent level is improving. I don't buy it. The only measure where I can see a noticeable improvement is in 40 times. The better talent is not showing on the field from what I can see. While I don't think recruiting service ratings are perfect they seem to be a fair indicator of future performance and we have not improved in recruiting at all according to those services.

Is Army's talent level higher than ours?

And every year when people complain about the on the field performance someone blames the fans, but what is the largest home field advantage in the NCAA worth? In 2009 the average home field advantage was 3.05 points. It may help with recruiting but it is not going to overcome 15pts on the field.

Now we do have a young team. How young? The avg years of experience for us is 1.49...NCSU=1.77 UNC=1.59 Wake=1.69. I looked at Navy's as well but they have way more players listed on the roster so the comparison might not be valid; nevertheless their avg is 1.18.

I fully support the football team players, staff, and coaches even if I lack both faith and trust in their ability to get the job done. My trust is available to be earned based on results not effort. When coach, who knows more than all of us, tells us that 1. talent is improving, 2. the team will be competitive, 3. that we will be in the hunt for a bowl game, and then there is no evidence that any of it is true my optimism is crushed.

This post sounds more negative than I intended. The bottom line is that we are winning more games than before the coaching change and from all reports the players are working harder. I believe at this point the best we can hope for is a gradual improvement to the talent level as the team fights to overcome a decline that was decades in the making.

[devil84]

What would happen if we had a basketball season with these results?


Four straight early season losses, 3 to unranked teams on the road and a home loss by 13 to the #1 team, and 3 more stretches of 3 consecutive losses
A home loss, by 12, to a Northeast Conference opponent
Swept by Carolina, losing by 21 away, and 24 at home
Swept by NC State, losing by 17 at home and 15 away
Beat an A10 by 1, another ACC foe at home by 25
A 43 point loss in the first round of the ACC tournament
Won 37% of games (worst season in a long, long time)

This would be the second consecutive year of such results by a third year coach.

I'm sure we'd be unhappy. We'd see scores of threads like this one. We'd probably berate the seniors. We'd talk about the youth and incompetence of the freshmen. We'd probably want to fire the coach and get a new one.

But we'd be berating Chip Engelland, Tom Emma, and Mike Tissaw (two of them are still employed in basketball professions). We'd be talking about the incompetence of Weldon Williams, David Henderson, Mark Alarie, Jay Bilas, and Johnny Dawkins (surely I don't have to tell you their accomplishments). And the coach was Coach K.

I was a manager on that team. Everyone gave 100%. Nobody wanted to lose. Nobody meant to miss their shots or have defensive lapses. We had confidence in our coach. If we could have changed the outcomes of the games, we surely would have. It stung to have our desires questioned by students, alumni, fans and the media.

This thread is precisely why I'm glad there was no Internet during my time at Duke. If I had the capability to read these threads, I'm not sure I would have wanted to go back to Cameron.

Now this isn't a good parallel to football. Football hasn't seen much success for decades. The fan support isn't there for football like it was for basketball (Cameron was a sellout for all games when the students were in school that year). It also wasn't over 90F in the blazing sun in Cameron for the second straight week (it was, however, 90F courtside for most games, but fans don't drop from heat problems in Cameron). I'm still sunburnt from last week.

In the '83 season, we had some games that were excellent. Some that were adequate. And several that were just awful. We learned from our mistakes. Sometimes we'd fix 'em the next game, sometimes it took a while. Sometimes we'd just invent new mistakes. And sometimes we were just outmatched -- we could have played our best but we were still beat. UVA was ranked #1 when we played them, UNC was #3, and NCSU won the NCAAs. There was just a little competition in league play. Kinda like this year's schedule, where 5 of our football games are against preseason top 25 teams.

I didn't see today's game due to a schedule conflict, and I understand it was ugly. Not much to be happy about. I trust that Coach Cut will take that up with his players enough that we don't really have to pile on (what they'll think should they read this thread). Sure, it's our prerogative to vent and express our extreme disappointment. Wouldn't be a fan board without it! But I'm not ready to write the whole team off just yet. Having been on a team in a similar predicament, it's clear there is a lot of room for improvement. We've seen the Wake game with some clear brilliance on our part (and some VERY costly mistakes). We've seen the #1 team in the country. And then we had an abysmally bad game. Who knows what's next. Could be more of the same, but just maybe it could be that the worst is behind us. That's the joy (and frustration) of watching college athletics!

Continue on venting in the thread, but I assure you, that team wants better results far more than you do. And I know they're working on it. Go Blue Devils!

[CameronBornAndBred]

P.S. No turnovers on our part!!!!!! That is also going to be huge, and could decide the game even more than our D just stopping them from scoring.
Well...so much for that. :mad:

[wtm001]

I love Duke and I love Coach Cutcliffe. I have been to every home game (and some on the road) for several years now. I will continue to support them. But, I will have to say that I was really disappointed today. For me, if Duke goes 1-11, but improves and fights their butts off every game...I can live with that. However, today I saw a team that had no energy and in my opinion showed no grit or fight at all. There were a few players trying hard, but overall just a bad effort. The team looked slow and overall just an awful game to watch. You turn on TV and watch other games when you get home and it's not even like watching the same sport. I never tell my wife this, but in the third quarter I told her this is one of the days where you wish you hadn't made the 2 hour drive to Wallace Wade.

I'll still be there each and every home game because I am determined that I will see Duke win in football, but today was a bad day in Wallace Wade. For me, it's not about a loss, but just giving a good effort. No spirit or effort today.

I left after the first half and I live two hours away too, I kinda understand how you feel :(

[NYC Duke Fan]

I love Duke and I love Coach Cutcliffe. I have been to every home game (and some on the road) for several years now. I will continue to support them. But, I will have to say that I was really disappointed today. For me, if Duke goes 1-11, but improves and fights their butts off every game...I can live with that. However, today I saw a team that had no energy and in my opinion showed no grit or fight at all. There were a few players trying hard, but overall just a bad effort. The team looked slow and overall just an awful game to watch. You turn on TV and watch other games when you get home and it's not even like watching the same sport. I never tell my wife this, but in the third quarter I told her this is one of the days where you wish you hadn't made the 2 hour drive to Wallace Wade.

I'll still be there each and every home game because I am determined that I will see Duke win in football, but today was a bad day in Wallace Wade. For me, it's not about a loss, but just giving a good effort. No spirit or effort today.

The team was 5-7 last year winning 3 ACC games, I don't quite understand how you could live,( as a sports fan of course), with the team going 1-11 with its only win coming against Elon so long as the team ," fights it butt off" ? If that happened it would be a huge step backward.

If that were the case we would probably be ranked as the worst Division A football program in the country.

I still do not understand how Northwestern and Vanderbilt can have competitive football teams and Duke has not or can not.

[hudlow]

I still do not understand how Northwestern and Vanderbilt can have competitive football teams and Duke has not or can not.

Vandy and NW never went for a decade being the doormat of their conference like Duke has.

In my opinion, Duke is playing to keep from having the crap kicked out of them and not playing to win.

Coach Cut's biggest problem is dealing with that mindset.

hud

[grossbus]

"I still do not understand how Northwestern and Vanderbilt can have competitive football teams and Duke has not or can not."

a perplexing question and one i do not have the answer for.

during my years (many, many years ago) at Duke, we were a notable football power, not top 5, but certainly top 25.

during the south carolina/auburn game last night, there was a short recap of spurrier's career. during the Duke segment, the comment was made that he made Duke good then, but they have not been good since. that is a stunning truth.

june jones has brought SMU back from the depths of the NCAA death penalty in just a couple of years. relatively quick turnarounds are possible and you can see the progress when it is happening.

i have trouble seeing any progress with us. we seem small and slow compared to our opponents on the field. our defense has difficulty with the run and the pass. our offense can score, but turns the ball over a lot. coaching seems to become conservative late in the game (i have noted this last year and the year before).

i don't know what the answer is. i am not even sure i know what the problem is. i do know that we should not be scheduling the likes of Alabama. i feel we are like Michele Wie when she was playing in those PGA tournaments tying to make cuts when she should have been playing against like competition and learning how to compete and win.

the remainder of this season is going to be a tough haul.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I'm not sure to where to start. I'm very disappointed, disheartened and baffled with the game yesterday. I'm certain the coaches and the players feel all those emotions and more.

I can look back over time and see that the decline of our program began as Bill Murray retired or during the last year or so of his time as coach. New leadership at Duke aspired to world prominence in many areas and wanted to do away with football altogether. The brief bright spot was during Steve Spurrier's tenure and perhaps the year he left. The mixed support or lack of support endured for decades until the embarrassment of the decline couldn't be ignored any more. In the meantime, whatever football culture we had on campus and among fans all but died out.

As evidence of the difficulty of recreating a culture supportive of football, look at our cheers. (I'm not criticizing our cheerleaders, just observing the situation.) We don't have football cheers three years into the rebuilding of the football program.

The bottom line is I can't give up on this program now despite the low point yesterday. It's so easy to dwell on how bad the game made me feel instead of looking for what I can do to help heal the problems and get better. My heart tells me that this is a time to close ranks and be supportive, not be destructive in my actions and words.

[NYC Duke Fan]

Vandy and NW never went for a decade being the doormat of their conference like Duke has.

In my opinion, Duke is playing to keep from having the crap kicked out of them and not playing to win.

Coach Cut's biggest problem is dealing with that mindset.

hud

I think that Northwestern went for a decade being the dormat of their conference until I believe Gary Barnett turned the program around.

[NYC Duke Fan]

I'm not sure to where to start. I'm very disappointed, disheartened and baffled with the game yesterday. I'm certain the coaches and the players feel all those emotions and more.

I can look back over time and see that the decline of our program began as Bill Murray retired or during the last year or so of his time as coach. New leadership at Duke aspired to world prominence in many areas and wanted to do away with football altogether. The brief bright spot was during Steve Spurrier's tenure and perhaps the year he left. The mixed support or lack of support endured for decades until the embarrassment of the decline couldn't be ignored any more. In the meantime, whatever football culture we had on campus and among fans all but died out.

As evidence of the difficulty of recreating a culture supportive of football, look at our cheers. (I'm not criticizing our cheerleaders, just observing the situation.) We don't have football cheers three years into the rebuilding of the football program.

The bottom line is I can't give up on this program now despite the low point yesterday. It's so easy to dwell on how bad the game made me feel instead of looking for what I can do to help heal the problems and get better. My heart tells me that this is a time to close ranks and be supportive, not be destructive in my actions and words.

I don't disagree about what you say especially closing ranks and not being destructive, but I just don't understand how we went from last year to being so up that our football program was on the upswing, winning 3 ACC games, to the distinct possibility, ( certainly hope not), to ending the season 1-11 with our only win coming against Elon.

[johnb]

A half dozen plays go differently, and we're 3-1 not 1-3.

Reading between the lines, we got conservative on offense because our 20-year-old qb got rattled. Fortunately, he's one of the most talented players on the team and will rebound.

I was upset by the loss as are many of you, but I do think we should hold off on wringing our hands and weeping. If you want to follow Oklahoma or Alabama, go for it. If you want to follow Duke, expect some bumps in the road. Unlike the case with basketball--where we clearly out-talent all but a handful of teams--we lack a talent margin in football that can immediately compensate for the ups and downs that are part of a game. If they break our way, however, I think we can beat most teams in Div 1.

[Indoor66]

I don't disagree about what you say especially closing ranks and not being destructive, but I just don't understand how we went from last year to being so up that our football program was on the upswing, winning 3 ACC games, to the distinct possibility, ( certainly hope not), to ending the season 1-11 with our only win coming against Elon.

I think some are not recognizing that Duke has gotten younger, less experienced. It takes time to develop a program. Duke was way down when Cut came in. He is bringing in his talent. Those he has brought in are starting to play now. They are making all the mistakes, learning from scratch as they had little good experience to learn from that was left over from the last regime.

I am disappointed with the Army game. I was disappointed in 1982 when K brought Duke to play Colorado in December of 1982 in Boulder and watched Duke lose 79-70. Ya'know, Duke got better.

Give it some time. If we look like this in two more years, then I have questions.

[6th Man]

The team was 5-7 last year winning 3 ACC games, I don't quite understand how you could live,( as a sports fan of course), with the team going 1-11 with its only win coming against Elon so long as the team ," fights it butt off" ? If that happened it would be a huge step backward.

If that were the case we would probably be ranked as the worst Division A football program in the country.

I still do not understand how Northwestern and Vanderbilt can have competitive football teams and Duke has not or can not.

I understand your point, but this team is not the same as last year. We are extremely young this season. The stat is something like over 50 of our 80 scholarship players are now freshman and sophomores. I would not be happy every season with 1-11 if the effort was there. I just feel like this particular team will have to learn a lot as they go. I still think by the time Renfree, Vernon, Sneed, Scott are upperclassman...they will be great. Particularly when young guys are going up against 5th year seniors, there is a huge difference physically. So for me this season, I'm just looking for effort, life, and improvement. So the Army game was a HUGE step backwards in that regard.

So I should clarify that I wouldn't be happy with 1-11 (as long as we see effort and improvement) every season. This is a rebuilding year. So while I wanted at least 5 wins, I really couldn't see it happening. I also didn't anticipate what we saw against Army. I know we are all really disappointed about that right now.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I don't disagree about what you say especially closing ranks and not being destructive, but I just don't understand how we went from last year to being so up that our football program was on the upswing, winning 3 ACC games, to the distinct possibility, ( certainly hope not), to ending the season 1-11 with our only win coming against Elon.
Every once in a while things occur in our lives that we never understand. These events or happenings defy our attempts to make a rational analysis. The choice is whether to continue to try to make sense of such experiences or drop them and move on to things we can understand and over which we can exercise some control. The gaps may have to be filled in with faith and trust, difficult commodities in challenging times. (I'm referring to faith and trust in the coaches and players in our current example of a tough situation without an answer.)

[Devilsfan]

I can accept a team let down after being so high for the 'Bama game and coming to the realization that the top teams in the country are loaded with bigger, faster, stronger rosters. That's ok. What's not so ok is the seemingly lack of Defensive preparation. We faced the old fashion option and while at times we hit the FB and the QB it seemed like Army could get to and turn the corner whenever they wanted. Also our D-Backs seemed lost again. They are so busy chasing receivers that have flown by them that they seem to have no idea where the ball is going. Also backs coming out of the back field seemed to be all alone with no one assigned to cover them. Cut is the greatest but one of his finest traits that I agree with is loyalty and that may be the one that kills us. Maybe our defensive coaches are not that good. Hope I'm wrong and I'm still going to every game and supporting our team.. Coach Cut has done so many great things for Duke in such a short time. He is perfect for our school and we are very lucky to have him. We have already benefited by his leading our progam and this will continue. Go Devils!

[sandinmyshoes]

That was just dispiriting.

I can wrap my mind around the fact that our defense is very young. I can understand that our offense made some mistakes that put a lot of pressure on that young defense.

But emotionally, it was just draining.

I understand that building a program takes time and will include some painful days. I remember Coach K's post UVA declaration of "here's to never forgetting." But when it comes to football, for twenty years all we've heard is "it takes time to build a program" or "give Coach so and so a chance" and the same old grasping at straws.

Still, I'll get over my whining sometime by mid-week. Get ready for the next game and hope that is the one that turns the season and maybe the program around. What else can we do?

[Son of Jarhead]

... it can't help that Alabama fans left there flag flying in Durham.
1606
(at University Marketplace on University Drive, Saturday afternoon prior to kickoff... went to take it down, but cord is cut off 15'-20' off the ground... anybody got a big ladder or bucket truck?)

[Acymetric]

I also really can't believe how Cut is handling this publicly. He should be furious that we lost like that. Whether he's mad at himself, his staff, or the players I don't care. Right now it seems like he's totally out of touch with the fanbase. Tell us there's no excuse for playing so poorly...something. Honestly the impression that I get from watching him talk is that he's as baffled as the rest of us with regards to our play. That concerns me.

Here's the link (http://duke.scout.com/2/1005949.html) if you want to check it out for yourself, its about 11 minutes long.

I really hope this team shows some life against Maryland.

[JBDuke]

Vandy and NW never went for a decade being the doormat of their conference like Duke has.
...

hud

You're kidding, right? Either that, or your post shows a massive ignorance of the conference histories of Northwestern and Vanderbilt.

Vandy hasn't won a conference championship since 1923 (before the SEC even existed), and has competed in a total of 4 bowl games in its history. They've posted a total of 4 winning seasons since 1959. They've had 16 winless conference records in their last 47 seasons, so every third year or so is winless in the SEC. They had 5 winless seasons in a row in the 70's. How much more of a conference doormat do you want?

And as for Northwestern, well they've won 8 conference titles in 115 years in the Big Ten. Of course, there was an almost 60 year gap between the championship in 1936 and the next one in 1995. In the late 70's and early 80's, Northwestern set the NCAA Division 1-A record for futility with a 34 game losing streak, and won a total of 3 games from 1976 through 1981. Their history, minus that one stretch, isn't quite as pitiful as Vandy's, but they're still a classic doormat.

Duke's record in the 90's and 00's certainly isn't anything to take pride in, but we're hardly the first academically-oriented school in a big time athletic conference to struggle over long periods of time.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

What would happen if we had a basketball season with these results?


Four straight early season losses, 3 to unranked teams on the road and a home loss by 13 to the #1 team, and 3 more stretches of 3 consecutive losses
A home loss, by 12, to a Northeast Conference opponent
Swept by Carolina, losing by 21 away, and 24 at home
Swept by NC State, losing by 17 at home and 15 away
Beat an A10 by 1, another ACC foe at home by 25
A 43 point loss in the first round of the ACC tournament
Won 37% of games (worst season in a long, long time)

This would be the second consecutive year of such results by a third year coach.

I'm sure we'd be unhappy. We'd see scores of threads like this one. We'd probably berate the seniors. We'd talk about the youth and incompetence of the freshmen. We'd probably want to fire the coach and get a new one.

But we'd be berating Chip Engelland, Tom Emma, and Mike Tissaw (two of them are still employed in basketball professions). We'd be talking about the incompetence of Weldon Williams, David Henderson, Mark Alarie, Jay Bilas, and Johnny Dawkins (surely I don't have to tell you their accomplishments). And the coach was Coach K.

I was a manager on that team. Everyone gave 100%. Nobody wanted to lose. Nobody meant to miss their shots or have defensive lapses. We had confidence in our coach. If we could have changed the outcomes of the games, we surely would have. It stung to have our desires questioned by students, alumni, fans and the media.

This thread is precisely why I'm glad there was no Internet during my time at Duke. If I had the capability to read these threads, I'm not sure I would have wanted to go back to Cameron.

Now this isn't a good parallel to football. Football hasn't seen much success for decades. The fan support isn't there for football like it was for basketball (Cameron was a sellout for all games when the students were in school that year). It also wasn't over 90F in the blazing sun in Cameron for the second straight week (it was, however, 90F courtside for most games, but fans don't drop from heat problems in Cameron). I'm still sunburnt from last week.

In the '83 season, we had some games that were excellent. Some that were adequate. And several that were just awful. We learned from our mistakes. Sometimes we'd fix 'em the next game, sometimes it took a while. Sometimes we'd just invent new mistakes. And sometimes we were just outmatched -- we could have played our best but we were still beat. UVA was ranked #1 when we played them, UNC was #3, and NCSU won the NCAAs. There was just a little competition in league play. Kinda like this year's schedule, where 5 of our football games are against preseason top 25 teams.

I didn't see today's game due to a schedule conflict, and I understand it was ugly. Not much to be happy about. I trust that Coach Cut will take that up with his players enough that we don't really have to pile on (what they'll think should they read this thread). Sure, it's our prerogative to vent and express our extreme disappointment. Wouldn't be a fan board without it! But I'm not ready to write the whole team off just yet. Having been on a team in a similar predicament, it's clear there is a lot of room for improvement. We've seen the Wake game with some clear brilliance on our part (and some VERY costly mistakes). We've seen the #1 team in the country. And then we had an abysmally bad game. Who knows what's next. Could be more of the same, but just maybe it could be that the worst is behind us. That's the joy (and frustration) of watching college athletics!

Continue on venting in the thread, but I assure you, that team wants better results far more than you do. And I know they're working on it. Go Blue Devils!

There's a huge difference in circumstances between Duke basketball in the early '80s and Duke football in recent years. Most important is the difference in coaching. Coach K was young and new to coaching (and recruiting for) big time college basketball when he arrived at Duke. Coach Cut is a mature, experienced coach who has been closely involved in big time college football for decades.

[sagegrouse]

I also really can't believe how Cut is handling this publicly. He should be furious that we lost like that. Whether he's mad at himself, his staff, or the players I don't care. Right now it seems like he's totally out of touch with the fanbase. Tell us there's no excuse for playing so poorly...something. Honestly the impression that I get from watching him talk is that he's as baffled as the rest of us with regards to our play. That concerns me.

.

I don't disagree with the tenor of your post but but I have a somewhat different interpretation. I would be really worried if he WEREN'T mystified by the team's play yesterday. Surely he thought his team was ready to play Army. Clearly it wasn't. Why wouldn't he be baffled? I mean, the diagnoses -- lethargy, inaccuracy and poor decisions by the QB, not taking care of the ball --are obvious. But that's what the staff emphasizes in practice every day. Maybe his bafflement is about what and how to coach to get a far better performance.

sagegrouse
'Thank goodness my ISP doesn't carry ESPN3'

[cspan37421]

I've heard Coach Cut is stockpiling redshirt talent, beefing up linemen, etc. I'm content to be patient - what's the alternative? Chris Petersen isn't walking through that door, AFIAK.

[jimsumner]

There's a huge difference in circumstances between Duke basketball in the early '80s and Duke football in recent years. Most important is the difference in coaching. Coach K was young and new to coaching (and recruiting for) big time college basketball when he arrived at Duke. Coach Cut is a mature, experienced coach who has been closely involved in big time college football for decades.

You're right, there is a big difference. Duke played for the national basketball title in 1978 and made the Elite Eight in 1980, just weeks before K took over from Bill Foster.


By contrast, Cutcliffe took over a program on a 10-82 run, a 25-game ACC losing streak, 4 winless seasons from 1996 through 2006. Duke has played in two bowl games since 1960 and lost both.

It took K until his second recruiting class to bring in blue-chippers and guys like Dawkins and Alarie had seen Gminski, Spanarkel and Banks play and win at a high level. They knew Duke could win big in hoops. They had seen it with their own eyes.

What's the frame-of-reference for today's high school football players? They were in diapers when Goldsmith had his one good year and hadn't been born when Spurrier was in Durham. And Wallace Wade might as well have been Thomas Jefferson.

So, who had the tougher sales job? Pretty obvious, if you ask me.

[arnie]

I've heard Coach Cut is stockpiling redshirt talent, beefing up linemen, etc. I'm content to be patient - what's the alternative? Chris Petersen isn't walking through that door, AFIAK.

At this point, you're absolutely right - we have no alternative. Hope it gets better is all we have and it might not. Still think recruiting needs to signficantly improve before we can get to 5-6 wins a year - not sure why that hasn't happened. For most loyal fans, we'll still go to the games; the problem becomes if few new fans go, teh students have no interest, it gets harder to recruit and the whole cycle starts again.

[Devilsfan]

Most of these posters just need to chill. Cut is perfect for Duke and he needs to be given a chance to change a program that has been down for years. If we were 3-1with a close game against 'Bama we would all have to worry about the soon to be open jobs like Ga. or the Panthers. I know he has a plan and I am confident it will work. Be thankful he is doing it the right way. With so many over zealous coaches and the scandals at their schools from the West Coast to Chapel Hill we have a rare person leading our program the right way and I am proud of him. Go Devils.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Most of these posters just need to chill. Cut is perfect for Duke and he needs to be given a chance to change a program that has been down for years.
Thank you very much. I'm not going to look and see how many of the folks dredging up the memories of Duke's football past also put up "Thank you Cut!" posts in the thread that announced he had turned down Tennessee to continue the program he has started at Duke. It's one game. It was a really, really ugly game.
It's sports and bad games happen. Just imagine Duke's demise if we were embarrassed badly by Georgetown in front of a national TV audience last year...while the president watched.
Oh...wait.

[Kfanarmy]

FWIW; Army is a late game fumble against Hawaii from being 4-0. The point there is that Army's offense has been playing very well, and the defense has been decent so far. Option teams are not easy to prepare for, unless you face a couple of teams a year running it.

[uh_no]

Where the hell were the students today?

I want to say something not nice, but I won't

The entire stadium was empty....the student section was MUCH more full than any of the general admission seats at the north side of the stadium....

[Acymetric]

FWIW; Army is a late game fumble against Hawaii from being 4-0. The point there is that Army's offense has been playing very well, and the defense has been decent so far. Option teams are not easy to prepare for, unless you face a couple of teams a year running it.

Which we have for at least 2 years before this.

[NYC Duke Fan]

Most of these posters just need to chill. Cut is perfect for Duke and he needs to be given a chance to change a program that has been down for years. If we were 3-1with a close game against 'Bama we would all have to worry about the soon to be open jobs like Ga. or the Panthers. I know he has a plan and I am confident it will work. Be thankful he is doing it the right way. With so many over zealous coaches and the scandals at their schools from the West Coast to Chapel Hill we have a rare person leading our program the right way and I am proud of him. Go Devils.

Noone on this Board has said that Cutcliffe is not the right guy for the job or has intimated in any way, shape or form that he should be let go. Some of us just didn't quite understand how the program which looked so promising last year has the potential to take a huge step backward this year. There have been logical explanations given but that does not stop fans from being very disappointed in Saturday's game, and there is nothing wrong in criticizing the head coach and his staff for that kind of performance.

I don't know if you are a pro football fan or if so what team you root for but here in New York today, all the Giant fans are all over Tom Coughlin and his staff for the rotten performance that the team put on yesterday. There is a wave calling for his head now, which of course will never happen.

[mkline09]

For what it is worth, I think everyone who is upset or critical of Duke Football right now has a valid point. Those who feel we should be patient and devote all our faith in Cut are also correct.

Cut is perfect for Duke and will get the job done. He just needs time.

Criticism and Frustration is perfectly warranted, and well refreshing. It wasn't that long ago when no one really talked about Duke Football. It was a forgone conclusion it was the ugly step child of the Duke Athletics world. Now Cut has restored hope, and with hope comes expectations. There have been multiple threads here on a site devoted primarily to Duke Basketball, about football. When we crazy Duke basketball fans can take time to celebrate and even bemoan Duke Football, that is a sign of improvement. I think Cut would be disappointed if the fans weren't disappointed and just a bit angry with the team right now.

Right now Duke is putting out a very young team who is not very good. A team that should get better this year, but realistically may not achieve what many of us had previously hoped for-- namely a bowl. That being said, start to think about how many players are coming back and how many are coming in.

Duke will not be rebuilt in a day. Football is completely different than basketball. It takes longer to rebuild and longer to establish a program capable of maintaining itself. This is what Cut is doing. I think he'd be happy fans were unhappy. It makes him want to work harder and hopefully the players do too. I think criticism is fair, but we should all continue to support the team. I'll admit I'm guilty of the knee jerk over reaction from time to time, but I'm willing to ride the storm out even if it means another painful year.

[davekay1971]

I'm disappointed by the outcome of the game, but certainly not by the direction of the program. It's so easy to see the improvement of talent on the field. The last two games have been tough - this one much moreso than the Alabama game. It's critical for the team to come out against Maryland with it's best performance, win or lose.

As an aside, Heather Dinich clearly knows ACC football better than I do. In my pregame post I noted 4 games in which I thought she was wrong - I said UVa would have let-down against VMI, NC State wouldn't be able to handle Ga Tech at home, Duke would beat Army, and that UNC would beat Rutgers. 1 out of 4, and not the one I wanted... I'll just keep my prognostications to myself next week.

[OldPhiKap]

“The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotion, spends himself in a worthy cause; who at best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who have never tasted victory or defeat.”

-- Teddy Roosevelt


Next play.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I want to say something not nice, but I won't

The entire stadium was empty....the student section was MUCH more full than any of the general admission seats at the north side of the stadium....

I don't disagree with you there, but I can only speak for myself and I was there, as I have been for 38 years, and I'll be there for the Miami and all remaining home games too. But the Alabama fans obviously won't be showing up for any other games, and the employees won't be getting several thousand free tickets and a free tailgate, so that accounts for ~8,000 empty seats right there. Virtually all of the "regulars" were in attendance. We need wins to build more "regulars".

Today's game was nothing short of embarrassing. The offense, the quarterback and the play calling for 3 quarters was putrid. A definite step backwards for the program.

Where the hell were the students today? They didn't know in advance what the game was going to bring. Their section was noticeably not full, almost barren, at the beginning of the game. They can't use a 3 pm start at homecoming as an excuse. They were AWOL as was the offensive team.

I am not happy. Next play. Next game.


You forgot to include the _efense that really didn't show up today either. ~250 yds rushing, 2 TD to WIDE open Army receivers, 8/17 third down conversions, 0 TO, 40 minutes of possession by the Cadets and serious difficulties tackling.
Actually, I disagree with your assessment of the defense. Well, for the most part, anyway. The run defense spent most of the day bending but not breaking, which is how you defend the option offense (unless you stop it cold, which takes way more talent and experience than we currently have). Obviously the long pass plays were killers, and Cutcliffe took the blame for those as playing the run too aggressively. But you've got to appreciate the job done by the defense. The experience will come in real handy when we play Navy and GTech later in the season.

And just for the record, I haven't given up on the team or the season http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/16.gif Let's beat the snot out of Maryland on Saturday night! http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/happy/bouncyblue.gif http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gif

[BlueandWhite]

I think that Northwestern went for a decade being the dormat of their conference until I believe Gary Barnett turned the program around.

As a Duke alum with several family members who are Northwestern alumni, I followed Northwestern football even before I arrived at Duke as an undergrad. Northwestern's futility in football was even longer, and worse, than Duke has experienced since the last bowl team under Fred Goldsmith. Until Gary Barnett arrived for the 1992 season (and NU's records during his first three years weren't very good, until the 1995 Rose Bowl team), Northwestern from early 1970s through the early 1990s was easily the worst Division I program.

From 1973 through 1991, under four different coaches, Northwestern's W/L record was 36-170-3, which calculates to around a .170 winning percentage. I believe this included an NCAA-record 33 consecutive loss streak from 1979-81, and another long losing streak in the late 1980s.

Let's stick with Coach Cutcliffe and give him some time to rebuild...and continue to support Duke and the team, win or lose, this year!

[ArnieMc]

I don't think the sky is falling. After all, we beat them in total offense 372 to 333, and in rushing average 4.6 yds/carry vs 3.8. The problem was that we kept giving the ball to them. Four of the five turnovers were directly attributable to Renfree. He just had a bad game. He seemed rattled. Maybe he had a minor injury in the 'bama game to his hand or throwing arm or confidence or something. In any case, I think he can get it back together against Maryland.

We know the defense isn't very good, but, except for the two uncontested touchdown passes, they weren't really that embarrassing. We just need to get the offense's confidence back up.

On another note, who is Connette really going to surprise by throwing the ball?

[OZZIE4DUKE]

On another note, who is Connette really going to surprise by throwing the ball?
I was hoping it was going to be Army... Maybe Cut's saving that for Maryland this Saturday!

[6th Man]

On another note, who is Connette really going to surprise by throwing the ball?

LOL...it's going to shock any team that has watched game film of Duke. You know, if I don't pay close enough attention, I think Renfree is still in there until Connette takes off. From my seats they look about the same size and the jersey numbers are 19 and 18.

One of these days on second and short he's going to run in the game, take the snap, and hurl a 60 yarder to Conner Vernon for a TD. Maybe Cut is saving it for the Tarholes. Wants that Victory Bell back.

[CameronBornAndBred]

LOL...it's going to shock any team that has watched game film of Duke. You know, if I don't pay close enough attention, I think Renfree is still in there until Connette takes off. From my seats they look about the same size and the jersey numbers are 19 and 18.

One of these days on second and short he's going to run in the game, take the snap, and hurl a 60 yarder to Conner Vernon for a TD. Maybe Cut is saving it for the Tarholes. Wants that Victory Bell back.
I don't see much point in saving the surprise..Cutcliffe has said he wants Connette to have game experience if Renfree gets injured. I do not want to see another Zack Asack running show if Renfree does go down, I want to see us to continue to have a mixed offense. I also don't want to see Loran16 have to change his signature because we've invented a new drinking game.

[DoubleDuke Dad]

I don't know if you are a pro football fan or if so what team you root for but here in New York today, all the Giant fans are all over Tom Coughlin and his staff for the rotten performance that the team put on yesterday. There is a wave calling for his head now, which of course will never happen.

It appeared to me that they were using the Duke playbook!:(

[Richard Berg]

Once again, I am going to have to disagree. The full suport of the student body and community should be a given whether the team wins or loses. Perhaps the problem isn't with the football team but rather resides with the fan base?
I don't remember any such clause in my letter of admissions.

Don't get me wrong -- I've been to dozens & dozens of games, home & away, and plan to continue rooting for the team. But I'm under no illusion it's anything more than a volunteer effort. Heck, the last few years, it hasn't even been that; they make me pay to attend nowadays :) The same can't be said for the 80+ kids getting a $150K reward for their efforts.

(And yes, I do believe the effort is there, even when it looks ugly. Read the '84 team manager's post above for some perspective, please.)