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View Full Version : Can Josh and Nelson play any worse?



ChrisP
03-04-2007, 03:59 PM
I can't decide if McRoberts is out to lunch or trying to hard. Either way, he's been awful in the first half. Will someone PLEASE tell Demarcus Nelson that he is 6' 5"? If you catch it deep in the post, you don't have time to pump fake. Has he not learned ANYTHING in the last 3 years?

On the bright side, I'm not sure we can play a lot worse and that UNC can play a lot better. Here's hoping things turn around in the 2nd half.

phaedrus
03-04-2007, 04:00 PM
6'5? that's pretty generous... about 2 inches generous.

CDu
03-04-2007, 04:08 PM
I'd say that almost no one has played well. Only Henderson has had a strong half. McClure was solid, and Zoubek and Thomas played okay but sparingly. Scheyer looks tentative, and Paulus is up to his standard tricks from this season (good shooting, struggling with ballhandling and turnovers).

We've dug a deep hole. The defense is going to have to play great, and the offense is going to have to get much better. Nearly all of the points are coming off individual effort (rather than teamwork).

It almost seems like we're trying to hit a home run with every pass. I don't know if that's a function of the half court offense struggling to get good looks otherwise, or if it's just nerves. But there've been several passes in the first half that just should not have been thrown. If we valued the ball, this game might actually be close.

Let's hope for fewer turnovers, better shooting, and solid defense.

devildownunder
03-04-2007, 05:13 PM
I'd say that almost no one has played well. Only Henderson has had a strong half. McClure was solid, and Zoubek and Thomas played okay but sparingly. Scheyer looks tentative, and Paulus is up to his standard tricks from this season (good shooting, struggling with ballhandling and turnovers).




The radio guys keep talking about how brilliantly Paulus is playing. He did score at least 19 points but I can't say many other great things about his game. At about the 3 minute mark, he had 3 assists and 4 turnovers. Plus, he couldn't stay in front of lawson and others all night and the team has struggled to get consistent production out of the offense all night. Lawson, meanwhile, had just one turnover -- and he's a freshman playing at a much faster pace.

Now, in the interest of full disclosure, let me say that my "observations" are from radio, not TV, but if anyone wants to dispute them, by all means please do so. No, I am not blaming this loss on Paulus alone. There is plenty of blame/responsibility to go around. I just don't understand what these guys are talking about when they fall all over themselves to praise gp for this one.

CDu
03-04-2007, 05:25 PM
The radio guys keep talking about how brilliantly Paulus is playing. He did score at least 19 points but I can't say many other great things about his game. At about the 3 minute mark, he had 3 assists and 4 turnovers. Plus, he couldn't stay in front of lawson and others all night and the team has struggled to get consistent production out of the offense all night. Lawson, meanwhile, had just one turnover -- and he's a freshman playing at a much faster pace.

Now, in the interest of full disclosure, let me say that my "observations" are from radio, not TV, but if anyone wants to dispute them, by all means please do so. No, I am not blaming this loss on Paulus alone. There is plenty of blame/responsibility to go around. I just don't understand what these guys are talking about when they fall all over themselves to praise gp for this one.

Like I said, his typical game: good shooting, struggles with setting up others, too many turnovers. Struggled with Lawson (though he certainly wasn't alone there).

That said, he didn't have nearly the turnover problem McBobs did.

devildownunder
03-04-2007, 05:27 PM
Like I said, his typical game: good shooting, struggles with setting up others, too many turnovers. Struggled with Lawson (though he certainly wasn't alone there).

That said, he didn't have nearly the turnover problem McBobs did.

yep, sounded exactly like typical paulus fare, yet they bent over backwards to talk about how great he was.

As for mcroberts, i'm not sure what was up with him. From what was described, he sounded lost out there, which is hard to believe.

RockyMtDevil
03-04-2007, 05:40 PM
The missing link in our team is both Josh and Markie. both simply have digressed in the last several weeks. Josh got absolutely schooled today by Hansborough, he was out-toughed, out-worked and just got embarresed on both ends of the court.

Markie simply can't shoot, and his decision making is still suspect on many of his head-down drives to the hoop.

I'm just very dissapointed that Josh has not stepped up his game and tried to be the man. Hansborough has left him in the dust and thus we will continue to lose all games like this...

CDu
03-04-2007, 05:40 PM
yep, sounded exactly like typical paulus fare, yet they bent over backwards to talk about how great he was.

As for mcroberts, i'm not sure what was up with him. From what was described, he sounded lost out there, which is hard to believe.

I'd like to give UNC credit for how they played McRoberts, but it looked like he just didn't have it in the first half. He did play better in the second half with regards to turnovers, but it put us in a tough spot early.

It's a frustrating loss, but UNC is the more talented team this year. Our margin for error was really small, and we clearly made a bunch of errors.

CDu
03-04-2007, 05:44 PM
The missing link in our team is both Josh and Markie. both simply have digressed in the last several weeks. Josh got absolutely schooled today by Hansborough, he was out-toughed, out-worked and just got embarresed on both ends of the court.

Markie simply can't shoot, and his decision making is still suspect on many of his head-down drives to the hoop.

I'm just very dissapointed that Josh has not stepped up his game and tried to be the man. Hansborough has left him in the dust and thus we will continue to lose all games like this...

I think you mean "regress." Sorry, that's a personal pet peeve of mine. :)

Other than that silly nitpick, I'd say you're being a bit harsh on Nelson and McRoberts. I think we're asking them to be more than they really are. Nelson is not a go-to offensive player, and we've basically been asking McRoberts to carry the offense. Both are inconsistent shooters, neither has an established post game, and neither is a good free throw shooter. So expecting them to score consistently just isn't a fair expectation.

mgtr
03-04-2007, 05:51 PM
I certainly could not begin to play at any level with DeMarcus Nelson, but I don't understand how he can, almost every game, take a two foot shot and leave it one foot short.

arnie
03-04-2007, 06:48 PM
I don't think we can criticize the players for not playing their hearts out. Let's face it, the team does not have an ACC caliber inside game or playmaker. Greg has become a solid 2-guard with his shooting (but not a good playmaker) and McRoberts is not an inside player. Most of the other power forward minutes go to McClure and he is only 6-6 with very little offensive prowness.

Because of these liabilities, we are limited when playing teams with an inside presence and fast guards. I'm actually amazed how well we play without those elements. Unfortunately, if we don't get Patrick Patterson, I don't see how this improves over the next two years. Yes, we will be older, but don't see us competing for the NCAA championship or Final 4 without unidentified help.

It is what it is!

MulletMan
03-04-2007, 06:51 PM
I don't think we can criticize the players for not playing their hearts out. Let's face it, the team does not have an ACC caliber inside game or playmaker. Greg has become a solid 2-guard with his shooting (but not a good playmaker) and McRoberts is not an inside player. Most of the other power forward minutes go to McClure and he is only 6-6 with very little offensive prowness.

Because of these liabilities, we are limited when playing teams with an inside presence and fast guards. I'm actually amazed how well we play without those elements. Unfortunately, if we don't get Patrick Patterson, I don't see how this improves over the next two years. Yes, we will be older, but don't see us competing for the NCAA championship or Final 4 without unidentified help.

It is what it is!

Umm, how does getting Patrick Patterson help with defending fast guards? And you don't think that Henderson, Paulus, Scheyer, etc. will improve over the next several years? MMMMMm k....

JBDuke
03-04-2007, 06:58 PM
I don't think we can criticize the players for not playing their hearts out. Let's face it, the team does not have an ACC caliber inside game or playmaker. Greg has become a solid 2-guard with his shooting (but not a good playmaker) and McRoberts is not an inside player. Most of the other power forward minutes go to McClure and he is only 6-6 with very little offensive prowness.

Because of these liabilities, we are limited when playing teams with an inside presence and fast guards. I'm actually amazed how well we play without those elements. Unfortunately, if we don't get Patrick Patterson, I don't see how this improves over the next two years. Yes, we will be older, but don't see us competing for the NCAA championship or Final 4 without unidentified help.

It is what it is!


Umm, how does getting Patrick Patterson help with defending fast guards? And you don't think that Henderson, Paulus, Scheyer, etc. will improve over the next several years? MMMMMm k....


I think firealleva is saying that Patterson will help with the inside presence liability that he discusses - not so much with the fast guards one. Nolan Smith and increased playing time for G (assuming the asthma gets better) will help with the guards, I suspect.

imagepro
03-04-2007, 06:59 PM
That's my story and I'm sticking to it. I truly hate people saying things about "how poorly" someone is playing. Josh McRoberts played his gosh darned heart out today! He may not have had TH stats, be he has to play tired when his opponents have the luxury of getting rest. He bangs inside and gets punished. He plays a lot of minutes, and plays hard. Always efficient? Who is?

I can pretty much guarantee this, if we didn't have him, NO way would be where we are today. He basically IS our inside presence. Bash him all you want, I for one am VERY happy we have him. And while you may think not, I hate to imagine our record without him!

johnnydakota
03-04-2007, 08:24 PM
imagepro, I completely agree. Duke would be sub .500 w/o him. He has struggled getting shots to drop lately, but to call his play on either end embarrassing is just throwing him under the bus. People need to get a clue and quit blaming one kid, while ignoring anything positive he does. Thanks for your insight.

dukelifer
03-04-2007, 08:33 PM
6'5? that's pretty generous... about 2 inches generous.

Try 4 inches.

dukie8
03-04-2007, 08:33 PM
That's my story and I'm sticking to it. I truly hate people saying things about "how poorly" someone is playing. Josh McRoberts played his gosh darned heart out today! He may not have had TH stats, be he has to play tired when his opponents have the luxury of getting rest. He bangs inside and gets punished. He plays a lot of minutes, and plays hard. Always efficient? Who is?

I can pretty much guarantee this, if we didn't have him, NO way would be where we are today. He basically IS our inside presence. Bash him all you want, I for one am VERY happy we have him. And while you may think not, I hate to imagine our record without him!

you fails to mention that he has been steady as a rock on the defensive end. if unc doesn't have the best front line in the country, it is top 3, and mcbob had to deal with that on both ends basically by himself.

ChrisP
03-04-2007, 09:52 PM
imagepro, I completely agree. Duke would be sub .500 w/o him. He has struggled getting shots to drop lately, but to call his play on either end embarrassing is just throwing him under the bus. People need to get a clue and quit blaming one kid, while ignoring anything positive he does. Thanks for your insight.

I searched the entire thread (as it stands thus far) and you are the first one to use the word "embarrassing" here in reference to Josh's play. I started this thread and I never used that word, or intended anything remotely like it. I simply said that he had been awful in the first half of the game today. Perhaps I should have said "his play has been awful". In any case, I stand by that earlier comment. Doesn't mean I don't like him and don't respect his unique talents. I just felt that he and Nelson were not anywhere close to their best in a big game today and it disappointed me to see it happen on a national stage.

Chard
03-04-2007, 10:02 PM
That's my story and I'm sticking to it. I truly hate people saying things about "how poorly" someone is playing. Josh McRoberts played his gosh darned heart out today! He may not have had TH stats, be he has to play tired when his opponents have the luxury of getting rest. He bangs inside and gets punished. He plays a lot of minutes, and plays hard. Always efficient? Who is?

I can pretty much guarantee this, if we didn't have him, NO way would be where we are today. He basically IS our inside presence. Bash him all you want, I for one am VERY happy we have him. And while you may think not, I hate to imagine our record without him!

I thought he played well today. He kept his head in the game. He didn't have a great first half. Overall it wasn't his fault he was run into the ground.

FewFAC
03-04-2007, 10:14 PM
The radio guys keep talking about how brilliantly Paulus is playing. He did score at least 19 points but I can't say many other great things about his game. At about the 3 minute mark, he had 3 assists and 4 turnovers. Plus, he couldn't stay in front of lawson and others all night and the team has struggled to get consistent production out of the offense all night. Lawson, meanwhile, had just one turnover -- and he's a freshman playing at a much faster pace.

Now, in the interest of full disclosure, let me say that my "observations" are from radio, not TV, but if anyone wants to dispute them, by all means please do so. No, I am not blaming this loss on Paulus alone. There is plenty of blame/responsibility to go around.


I hate to keep harping on the coaching staff, but I really do not think a lot of the individual player issues can be blamed on the players.


I just don't understand what these guys are talking about when they fall all over themselves to praise gp for this one.

I think this is pretty clearly a function of K's tendency to "fall in love" with certain players. Honestly, I think if you switched the 3 and 5 jerseys, you would see a comparable level of productivity from both positions.

jtholland
03-04-2007, 11:03 PM
I think you mean "regress." Sorry, that's a personal pet peeve of mine. :)

Other than that silly nitpick, I'd say you're being a bit harsh on Nelson and McRoberts. I think we're asking them to be more than they really are. Nelson is not a go-to offensive player, and we've basically been asking McRoberts to carry the offense. Both are inconsistent shooters, neither has an established post game, and neither is a good free throw shooter. So expecting them to score consistently just isn't a fair expectation.

These guys are basketball players. They start for Duke. They are co-captains. We can't expect them to score consistently? Then maybe they should go play defense for Duke football.

Bob Green
03-05-2007, 03:40 AM
I have stated this before but I'll state it again, I do not understand the negative attitude toward DeMarcus Nelson by many members of this forum.

Today, DeMarcus covered Ty Lawson. Despite the comments I read in several threads about Lawson beating Paulus, DeMarcus was assigned to Lawson. I observed this during the game and have validated my observation via game clips on Sportscenter. Nelson defended Lawson! Lawson is too fast for Nelson but Nelson guarded him much better than Paulus could've.

DeMarcus is not a legitimate first option on offense. However, he has significant offensive skills. He is our leading scorer. I really wish we had a legitimate post presence for DeMarcus to play beside. Insert Greg Oden or Tyler Hansbrough (that should generate some hate mail) into our starting lineup and DeMarcus would average 20 points a game instead of 14.

Bob Green
Yokosuka, Japan

devildownunder
03-05-2007, 06:05 AM
I hate to keep harping on the coaching staff, but I really do not think a lot of the individual player issues can be blamed on the players.



I think this is pretty clearly a function of K's tendency to "fall in love" with certain players. Honestly, I think if you switched the 3 and 5 jerseys, you would see a comparable level of productivity from both positions.


What are your concerns about the coaches regarding player development?


Also, I was referring to the radio announcers. The coaches had nothing to do with these comments. Maybe they said something later.

I wouldn't be surprised if K and company did all they did to praise Paulus every chance they get because they are concerned about his confidence. He needs building up because if he bags it for the season, there is no one to step into his role on the team.

devildownunder
03-05-2007, 06:09 AM
I have stated this before but I'll state it again, I do not understand the negative attitude toward DeMarcus Nelson by many members of this forum.

Today, DeMarcus covered Ty Lawson. Despite the comments I read in several threads about Lawson beating Paulus, DeMarcus was assigned to Lawson. I observed this during the game and have validated my observation via game clips on Sportscenter. Nelson defended Lawson! Lawson is too fast for Nelson but Nelson guarded him much better than Paulus could've.

DeMarcus is not a legitimate first option on offense. However, he has significant offensive skills. He is our leading scorer. I really wish we had a legitimate post presence for DeMarcus to play beside. Insert Greg Oden or Tyler Hansbrough (that should generate some hate mail) into our starting lineup and DeMarcus would average 20 points a game instead of 14.

Bob Green
Yokosuka, Japan


I don't understand all of the heat DN is taking this year either. I think he is in sort of an impossible situation and I think he has made the most of it. He's an excellent defender and at least a capable scorer who doesn't need entire sets designed for him to get off his shot all of the time. Fans of this team should truly value those qualities. The first is always a key to success, the second is this edition's most rare commodity.

devildownunder
03-05-2007, 06:12 AM
you fails to mention that he has been steady as a rock on the defensive end. if unc doesn't have the best front line in the country, it is top 3, and mcbob had to deal with that on both ends basically by himself.

I would say that, overall, the biggest difference between the two teams when they squared off this year turned out to be north carolina's ability to find more than one scoring threat inside. In a sense, Wright ultimately did us in.

Cavlaw
03-05-2007, 06:51 AM
I was actually pretty pleased with Nelson's play yesterday.

Josh, on the other hand, drove me insane. At one stretch near the end of the first half he threw the ball away on 4 out of 5 possessions in quick succession trying to make awful passes, when we were down 2. It boggles my mind that he continues to attempt to play the way does on the offensive end, especially when it is so ineffective and (it seems to me, but I'm not an expert) it takes the entire offense out of synch.

One of the guys I was watching the game with speculated that Josh isn't big enough or strong enough to play center in the NBA, and that K is giving in to Josh's desire to play a point forward-style position to let him showcase himself to try and get him to stay another year.

The kid is an defensive star, but it is so difficult to watch him on offense. As I've said in other posts, it isn't his scoring that gets me, it is that he plays so far out of position that his offensive rebounding numbers aren't great, and he seem to knock everyone else out of synch.