Bing Crosby, Dick Groat, and the 1960 World Series

[Reisen]

I looked and didn't see a thread on this. I don't need to write much, as I'm sure most baseball fans have by now heard that a copy (the only copy known) of the 1960 Pittsburgh Pirate World Series game 7 win over the Yankees was found in Bing Crosby's wine cellar.

Not being a baseball fan, I didn't realize that Dick Groat was the short stop on that team, figured prominently in the series, and scored in the 8th inning. I recalled he played both baseball and basketball professionally, but that was about it.

Anyway, Groat is getting lots of publicity around this. Here's a link to the NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/24/sports/baseball/24crosby.html?_r=1&hpw

[Olympic Fan]

I looked and didn't see a thread on this. I don't need to write much, as I'm sure most baseball fans have by now heard that a copy (the only copy known) of the 1960 Pittsburgh Pirate World Series game 7 win over the Yankees was found in Bing Crosby's wine cellar.

Not being a baseball fan, I didn't realize that Dick Groat was the short stop on that team, figured prominently in the series, and scored in the 8th inning. I recalled he played both baseball and basketball professionally, but that was about it.

Anyway, Groat is getting lots of publicity around this. Here's a link to the NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/24/sports/baseball/24crosby.html?_r=1&hpw

Groat won the National League batting title in 1960 (.325) and was the National League MVP (although if half the voters weren't racists, the award would have gone to Roberto Clemente who was a significantly greater offensive player -- .815 to .766 OPS ... plus he was a great defensive rightfielder -- maybe the greatest of all time -- while Groat was a below-average shortstop; the modern perception of Clemente as a great player was slow to develop ... he was disliked as a young player and viewed by ignorant sports writers as a troublemaker and perceived as a malingerer).

Groat was also the shortstop and a key component of the 1964 St. Louis team that also beat the Yankees in seven games.

I saw this story about Bing's copy of the game and even as a lifelong Yankee fan (the Mazeroski homer broke my 11-year-old heart), I can't wait for MLB Network to show the game.

[gw67]

I appreciate the link. One of my best friends lived in Jeannette and I visited them every summer in the late 50's. His family was a big fan of the Pirates and we went to several games over the years at old Forbes Field. I saw Clemente, Groat, Maz, Virdon, Thomas and others play many a game. Clemente was a terrific player. We loved getting to the games early to watch batting practice and to see Clemente show off his powerful arm by making throws from the right field corner to 3rd base on the fly. I seem to recall that many fans had a hard time warming up to Roberto because he was regarded as a "hot dog" Latin player. However, he was a favorite of the late Bob Prince and along with Groat and Mazeroski, he eventually became a fan favorite. Groat was considered a good fielding shortstop even though he didn't have great range. He was sure handed and along with Maz was outstanding on the double play.

gw67

[Olympic Fan]

I disagree about Groat's fielding ...

Yes, he ranked high in double plays, but that was largely because of Mazeroski, who was the greatest double-play second baseman in history. Maz did it with a number of shortstops -- indeed, his best performance came when Gene Alley replaced Groat. When Groat moved to the Cardinals and played alongside Julian Javier, his DP rated dropped (I know that pitchers have something to do with that, but put it this way -- the Pirate DP rate climbed after Groat left and the Cardinal DP rate dropped when he arrived).

Groat's career fielding percentage was very slightly below the league average ...

He was a mediocre defensive SS, whose entire offensive value was in his ability to hit singles (he rarely walked and had little or no power). He was lucky to play in an era when writers were enamored with batting average, because it brought him a lot more respect that he deserved.

The managers knew better. In 1958, when Groat was in the second of two straight 300-plus seasons, the NL managers were asked to rate the SS in the league ... Groat finished sixth out of eight SSs -- behind Ernie Banks, Roy McMillan (probably the best defensive SS of that era), Eddie Kasko, Don Zimmer and Johnnie Logan and ahead of Darryl Spencer and Chico Fernandez. I've got to believe that was a reflection of his defense, not his .300 batting average.

[SCMatt33]

the award would have gone to Roberto Clemente who was a significantly greater offensive player -- .815 to .766 OPS

I'm not questioning any of your assertions about who should have won the award, seeing as I would not be born for another 26 years and don't fancy myself as a baseball historian. I would think, however, that you should probably illustrate your point with another stat seeing as OPS was decades away from being calculated, let alone widely used by the media. On another note, I am always so happy when I look and the records and see that Clemente got his 3000th hit on the last day of the '72 regular season.

[roywhite]

Groat won the National League batting title in 1960 (.325) and was the National League MVP (although if half the voters weren't racists, the award would have gone to Roberto Clemente who was a significantly greater offensive player -- .815 to .766 OPS ... plus he was a great defensive rightfielder -- maybe the greatest of all time -- while Groat was a below-average shortstop; the modern perception of Clemente as a great player was slow to develop ... he was disliked as a young player and viewed by ignorant sports writers as a troublemaker and perceived as a malingerer).

Groat was also the shortstop and a key component of the 1964 St. Louis team that also beat the Yankees in seven games.

I saw this story about Bing's copy of the game and even as a lifelong Yankee fan (the Mazeroski homer broke my 11-year-old heart), I can't wait for MLB Network to show the game.

If half the voters weren't racists?????

What kind of assertion (without proof) is that???

Goes beyond disagreement here; this post is objectionable and out of line

[Lord Ash]

The somewhat strange and interesting title about a historic event made me think this post was from Jim Sumner!

[ncexnyc]

What is it with the silly, "He only hits singles" line? I've seen it rolled out on several of the baseball threads here and I believe it's one of the more absurb comments I've seen on this board.

[JBDuke]

If half the voters weren't racists?????

What kind of assertion (without proof) is that???

Goes beyond disagreement here; this post is objectionable and out of line

Olympic Fan, as usual, is exactly right in his characterization of the media's treatment of Clemente. For your education, here's a quote:


Sportswriter Phil Musick, who spent years covering Clemente's career, was one of those who focused more on racist characterizations of Clemente than on his skills as a player. However, Musick later apologized in his 2001 book, Reflections on Roberto, writing, "There was a racial overtone to much of what was written about Clemente early in his career, and unfortunately it precluded much reporting on his baseball skills and how they were acquired. The author of this work (Musick) bears some of that responsibility."

Read more about Roberto Clemente and some more about the media's treatment of him here: http://sports.jrank.org/pages/920/Clemente-Roberto.html#ixzz10fdTS9cQ

And in the future, if you're going to challenge the post of someone who has earned as much respect around here as Olympic Fan, you need to bring something more to stand on than a moral high horse.

[roywhite]

Groat won the National League batting title in 1960 (.325) and was the National League MVP (although if half the voters weren't racists, the award would have gone to Roberto Clemente who was a significantly greater offensive player -- .815 to .766 OPS ... plus he was a great defensive rightfielder -- maybe the greatest of all time -- while Groat was a below-average shortstop; the modern perception of Clemente as a great player was slow to develop ... he was disliked as a young player and viewed by ignorant sports writers as a troublemaker and perceived as a malingerer).

Groat was also the shortstop and a key component of the 1964 St. Louis team that also beat the Yankees in seven games.

I saw this story about Bing's copy of the game and even as a lifelong Yankee fan (the Mazeroski homer broke my 11-year-old heart), I can't wait for MLB Network to show the game.

I see this post with the objectionable charges of "racism" is still standing. I consider it a disgraceful post.

Here is the voting summary for the National League MVP in 1960 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_1960.shtml#NLmvp)

In the absence of a monster statistical season by any one player, the Pittsburgh Pirates (Beat 'em, Bucs) were the NL story for 1960. This was borne out in the MVP voting with 4 Pirates ranking in the top 10, including Clemente who was 8th in the voting. Groat had a .325 batting average, provided good defense up the middle with 2B Mazeroski, and was a team leader.

Roberto Clemente was obviously a great player. He had a good year in 1960, but went on to even better things, and won the National League MVP just 6 years later in 1966.

Racism in voting?
Here were the National League MVP awards over a 10 year period from 1953-1962
1953 Roy Campanella
1954 Willie Mays
1955 Roy Campanella
1956 Don Newcombe
1957 Hank Aaron
1958 Ernie Banks
1959 Ernie Banks
1960 Dick Groat
1961 Frank Robinson
1962 Maury Wills

So, in a 10-year period the award went 9 times to African-American players. Or does the poster think that African-American players were judged on their performance, but Hispanic players were not?

Reasonable people may differ about the relative merits of an MVP candidate. After all, it's a subjective award.

But unsubstantiated charges of racism 50 years after the fact is not a reasonable argument. It's beneath the original poster.

[MCFinARL]

This thread brings back memories. I was lucky enough as a child to attend the 7th game of the 1960 World Series, which was spectacular in every way (unless you were, like my spouse, a Yankees fan--we didn't know each other then and were somehow able to get past this fundamental incompatibility). Afterwards, there was celebrating in the streets of a kind that seems wonderfully innocent by today's standards. Shopkeepers were handing out flowers, cookies, whatever they had to passersby, people sang, horns honked. To be sure, plenty of Iron City beers were hoisted in celebration, but it didn't turn into fighting, looting, sofa burning (nod to Terp fans), etc.

As for Dick Groat, I was on the other side of that coin, having revered him (along with Maz, Clemente, Vernon Law and many others) for decades before discovering that he had been a Duke basketball player.

I don't want to get involved in the racism debate--I don't know enough about baseball history to say much on that front, especially as regards MVP voting. In my recollection, though, Clemente did not get as much fan appreciation in his early years in Pittsburgh as some other players, perhaps because his outspoken, emotional personality was a hard sell in stolid, shot-and-a-beer Pittsburgh. It's easy to see why some might conclude that this resulted from racism, but hard to know in retrospect. But he always had fans (my family loved him), and by the end of his career, if memory serves, he was much beloved in Pittsburgh.

[sagegrouse]

Here were the National League MVP awards over a 10 year period from 1953-1962
1953 Roy Campanella
1954 Willie Mays
1955 Roy Campanella
1956 Don Newcombe
1957 Hank Aaron
1958 Ernie Banks
1959 Ernie Banks
1960 Dick Groat
1961 Frank Robinson
1962 Maury Wills
.

This is a good list of incredibly talented MVPs. The outlier isn't Dick Groat, who, after all, was good enough to be picked up by Branch Rickey for my Cardinals in their losing pennant run in 1963 and their World Series win in 1964.

The person who stole the MVP trophy from this list was Maury Wills in 1962: SI at the time referred to it as his 105th stolen base. He got incredibly ink during his chase to beat Ty Cobb's ancient record on stolen bases.

The true MVP? Willie Mays 49 HRs (vs 6), 141 RBIs (vs 48), 0.615 slugging ave. (vs. an anemic 0.373) and comparable results in BA (.304 vs.299), runs (130 for each). And give Maury credit as an extra base for each of his stolen bases (minus his CS) and his slugging average is still more than 100 points below Willie Mays.

sagegrouse
'Moreover, Mays's Giants beat Wills's Dodgers in a playoff to go to the World Series'

[ncexnyc]

I guess who stole what and from whom is in the eye of the beholder. Here are the voting results from the both the AL & NL MVP voting.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_1962.shtml

I'd say you could make a strong case for any of the top vote getters.

[killerleft]

I see this post with the objectionable charges of "racism" is still standing. I consider it a disgraceful post.

Here is the voting summary for the National League MVP in 1960 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_1960.shtml#NLmvp)

In the absence of a monster statistical season by any one player, the Pittsburgh Pirates (Beat 'em, Bucs) were the NL story for 1960. This was borne out in the MVP voting with 4 Pirates ranking in the top 10, including Clemente who was 8th in the voting. Groat had a .325 batting average, provided good defense up the middle with 2B Mazeroski, and was a team leader.

Roberto Clemente was obviously a great player. He had a good year in 1960, but went on to even better things, and won the National League MVP just 6 years later in 1966.

Racism in voting?
Here were the National League MVP awards over a 10 year period from 1953-1962
1953 Roy Campanella
1954 Willie Mays
1955 Roy Campanella
1956 Don Newcombe
1957 Hank Aaron
1958 Ernie Banks
1959 Ernie Banks
1960 Dick Groat
1961 Frank Robinson
1962 Maury Wills

So, in a 10-year period the award went 9 times to African-American players. Or does the poster think that African-American players were judged on their performance, but Hispanic players were not?

Reasonable people may differ about the relative merits of an MVP candidate. After all, it's a subjective award.

But unsubstantiated charges of racism 50 years after the fact is not a reasonable argument. It's beneath the original poster.

Well, when one reconstructs history, it is evident that not only were those good-ole- boy sportswriters racists, they were so stupid they all marked their ballots incorrectly every year but one during those years listed.

Or not. Since wild theories are all the rage these days, I will add one: The non-racist writers voted as a block for a black player agreed upon before the vote.

More plausible: In an era when sportswriters considered themselves true journalists, the large majority of them simply voted for the player they thought deserved the award. Integrity, anyone?

[DevilHorns]

As I am pretty naive to baseball back in that era, I did a little research, and found this opinion piece:

http://www.seamheads.com/2008/04/24/was-clemente-really-slighted-by-mvp-voters-in-1960/

A few highlights:

"Groat, the acknowledged leader of the Pirates, was said to be affable with the press, with whom he enjoyed a friendly relationship. Clemente, who finished eighth in the voting, was said to be misunderstood and moody, and he openly discussed his injuries, leading the writers to label him a hypochondriac."

"Not only was Clemente not the most valuable player in the National League in 1960 (at least in terms of Win Shares), it can be argued that there were at least five Pirates who were as valuable, if not more so."

"Now I realize that Win Shares are not the only way to measure value and I also understand that everyone has a different definition of “most valuable.” Some feel the most valuable player is the one who posts the gaudiest numbers, especially in the triple crown categories, regardless of his team’s performance, while others insist that the MVP should be the best player on a winning team. This disparity was no more evident than in 1987 and ‘88. Andre Dawson was named the National League’s MVP in ‘87 after hitting 49 homers and driving in 137 runs for a Cubs team that finished in last place in the N.L. East with a 76-85 record. The very next season, Kirk Gibson copped the award despite hitting only 25 homers and driving in 76 runs because he was widely considered to be the catalyst of a Dodgers team that improved its record by 21 wins over its 1987 total and won the World Series.
But it’s clear that Clemente neither posted gaudy stats—he batted .314 with 16 homers and 94 RBIs and posted an .815 OPS (121 OPS+)—nor was he the best player on his team. According to Win Shares and the baseball writers, that title belonged to Groat."

"t’s also difficult to prove racial bias was at play, considering two of the top four N.L. MVP candidates in 1960 were black, and between 1953 and 1959, black players copped all seven MVP Awards. Until 1960 when Groat won the award, the last white player to win the award in the N.L. was Hank Sauer in 1952. In fact, since Jackie Robinson broke the color line in 1947, nine of the 14 National League MVP Awards handed out between 1947 and 1960 went to black players. That Clemente was also Latino may have worked against him, but Cuban-born White Sox star Minnie Minoso finished fourth in American League MVP voting that same year while playing for a team that finished in third place."

The author goes on to make an interesting argument regarding MVP voting back in that time centered on positional bias (tendency for sports-writers to favor voting for players that played in the central portion of the field (C, 2B, SS, CF) versus the corners (3B, 1B, LF, RF)) that becomes more compelling statistically if the MVPs are from pennant winners or World Series winners.

IMO pretty cool read, especially as now days the players that put up the 'gaudy stats' are nurtured to play the corners!

[Jarhead]

Will someone please help me understand where all this vitriol against Dick Groat is coming from? He stands very high in my mind for his accomplishments in college hoops and MLB. Can't say anything about his minor league career, though. He didn't have one. He went straight from the diamond at Coombs field to the starting shortstop for the Pirates. And but for Branch Rickey's reluctance, he could have had a good shot as a guard for the pistons. You people didn't see him play. I did. Relative to the players of the day he was a standout regardless of current interpretations of his stats. He deserved his banner in the rafters and his MVP status. You had to be there.
http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/angry/screaming.gif

[roywhite]

Will someone please help me understand where all this vitriol against Dick Groat is coming from? He stands very high in my mind for his accomplishments in college hoops and MLB. Can't say anything about his minor league career, though. He didn't have one. He went straight from the diamond at Coombs field to the starting shortstop for the Pirates. And but for Branch Rickey's reluctance, he could have had a good shot as a guard for the pistons. You people didn't see him play. I did. Relative to the players of the day he was a standout regardless of current interpretations of his stats. He deserved his banner in the rafters and his MVP status. You had to be there.
http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/angry/screaming.gif

I certainly agree with you, and I did see Groat play several times for the Pirates, though I was a youngster at the time. And I was usually glued to my transistor radio to listen to Bob Prince's broadcast of the Bucco games.

1960 was a magical season for the Pirates, and for the fans it was a ride perhaps similar to our 2010 national championship. The team exceeded expectations, and captured the imagination of much of Western PA and surrounding areas.

The 1960 World Series was an interesting one in many ways. Here is the Wiki account of the series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_World_Series)

Total runs were 55-27 in favor of the Yanks, but the Pirates were able to squeeze out 4 wins. Mazeroski's home run in the 9th inning of Game 7 was memorable, but overshadows the hugely important 3-run homer by Hal Smith in the 8th inning.

The Pirates had a number of memorable players including:
Dick "Dr. Strangeglove" Stuart
Wilmer "Vinegar Bend" Mizell
Smokey Burgess, a clutch hitting catcher
Elroy Face, a great reliever who relied on a fork ball

Great memories.

[fogey]

I certainly agree with you, and I did see Groat play several times for the Pirates, though I was a youngster at the time. And I was usually glued to my transistor radio to listen to Bob Prince's broadcast of the Bucco games.

1960 was a magical season for the Pirates, and for the fans it was a ride perhaps similar to our 2010 national championship. The team exceeded expectations, and captured the imagination of much of Western PA and surrounding areas.

The 1960 World Series was an interesting one in many ways. Here is the Wiki account of the series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_World_Series)

Total runs were 55-27 in favor of the Yanks, but the Pirates were able to squeeze out 4 wins. Mazeroski's home run in the 9th inning of Game 7 was memorable, but overshadows the hugely important 3-run homer by Hal Smith in the 8th inning.

The Pirates had a number of memorable players including:
Dick "Dr. Strangeglove" Stuart
Wilmer "Vinegar Bend" Mizell
Smokey Burgess, a clutch hitting catcher
Elroy Face, a great reliever who relied on a fork ball

Great memories.

As great a player as he was, Clemente was in fact withdrawn and even hostile to the press as compared to other players of that era, including great players such as Mays and Aaron. IMHO racism had little or nothing to do with it; rather, it was just a cultivated lack of affection by the press. Small market, lousy personality, petty press corps and presto, no MVP.

[PaIronDuke]

Will someone please help me understand where all this vitriol against Dick Groat is coming from? He stands very high in my mind for his accomplishments in college hoops and MLB. Can't say anything about his minor league career, though. He didn't have one. He went straight from the diamond at Coombs field to the starting shortstop for the Pirates. And but for Branch Rickey's reluctance, he could have had a good shot as a guard for the pistons. You people didn't see him play. I did. Relative to the players of the day he was a standout regardless of current interpretations of his stats. He deserved his banner in the rafters and his MVP status. You had to be there.
http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/angry/screaming.gif

As Jarhead-whom I seem to remember is an old-timer, like me ("54)-says, you really "had to be there". Like him, I was. Dick Groat in his prme may have been the most exciting college basketball player of all time. At-maybe-six feet tall, to see him slide through stacked defenses and shake free with silky jump shots-when the two-handed shot was still being used-was pure poetry in motion. In addition to being an All-American on a baseball team with one or two other major-leaguers-to-be, he held both national scoring titles at the same time. During an era well before Duke's national prominence in basketball, he was a delight to watch and a credit to the university. To suggest otherwise is, I believe, revisionist history.

[DU82]

Groat won the National League batting title in 1960 (.325) and was the National League MVP (although if half the voters weren't racists, the award would have gone to Roberto Clemente who was a significantly greater offensive player -- .815 to .766 OPS ... plus he was a great defensive rightfielder -- maybe the greatest of all time -- while Groat was a below-average shortstop; the modern perception of Clemente as a great player was slow to develop ... he was disliked as a young player and viewed by ignorant sports writers as a troublemaker and perceived as a malingerer).

Groat was also the shortstop and a key component of the 1964 St. Louis team that also beat the Yankees in seven games.

I saw this story about Bing's copy of the game and even as a lifelong Yankee fan (the Mazeroski homer broke my 11-year-old heart), I can't wait for MLB Network to show the game.

As others have pointed out, I don't think it was racism that caused the writers not to vote for Clemente. I think the comments about Roberto being disliked by the writers is a factor, but also the over-valuing of certain statistics that over time have shown to be less significant than originally thought. That, and a voting trend for middle infielders during that period (Banks, Groat, Wills and Zolio Versalles, probably the worst player ever to be voted a season's MVP.) That's something that occasionally still occurs, (see the vote for Jimmy Rollins a couple of years ago, which was just wrong.)

Checking Baseball-Reference.com (a great resource, I've sponsored a page), Willie Mays was the best player in the NL in 1960 in a number of modern calculations, and in particular WAR (Wins above replacement level.) Mays, Aaron, Banks, Eddie Matthews and Frank Robinson were probably the best players in that year, however there's always the debate as to who should get the MVP award, the best player overall, or the best player on the winning team.

Groat checks in at number 7 among position players. Other than batting average, Groat was among the top ten in on-base percentage, Clemente RBIs (and OPS, as you mentioned.)

It's interesting that the writers thought Clemente was the 4th most valuable Pirate that year, with Don Hoak (3rd base) finishing second, and Vern Law (pitcher) finishing tied for 6th, just ahead of Clemente in 8th.

NO question that Clemente was the best player on that Pirate team, overall for a career. However, for that season, I don't see the MVP vote as being wrong.

[sagegrouse]

Will someone please help me understand where all this vitriol against Dick Groat is coming from? He stands very high in my mind for his accomplishments in college hoops and MLB. Can't say anything about his minor league career, though. He didn't have one. He went straight from the diamond at Coombs field to the starting shortstop for the Pirates. And but for Branch Rickey's reluctance, he could have had a good shot as a guard for the pistons. You people didn't see him play. I did. Relative to the players of the day he was a standout regardless of current interpretations of his stats. He deserved his banner in the rafters and his MVP status. You had to be there.
http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/angry/screaming.gif

I never saw him play basketball, but on my playground back in the early '50s, Dick Groat was who everyone wanted to be.

sagegrouse

[roywhite]

MLB Network is airing Game 7 of 1960 World Series tonight (12/15) at 8:00 PM EST.

This is the long-lost NBC tape that was recently found in Bing Crosby's wine cellar.

Bob Costas will host with commentary from Bobby Richardson and Bill Mazeroski.

[jv001]

This is a good list of incredibly talented MVPs. The outlier isn't Dick Groat, who, after all, was good enough to be picked up by Branch Rickey for my Cardinals in their losing pennant run in 1963 and their World Series win in 1964.

The person who stole the MVP trophy from this list was Maury Wills in 1962: SI at the time referred to it as his 105th stolen base. He got incredibly ink during his chase to beat Ty Cobb's ancient record on stolen bases.

The true MVP? Willie Mays 49 HRs (vs 6), 141 RBIs (vs 48), 0.615 slugging ave. (vs. an anemic 0.373) and comparable results in BA (.304 vs.299), runs (130 for each). And give Maury credit as an extra base for each of his stolen bases (minus his CS) and his slugging average is still more than 100 points below Willie Mays.

sagegrouse
'Moreover, Mays's Giants beat Wills's Dodgers in a playoff to go to the World Series'

the ST. Louis Cardinal infield of: Bill White, Julian Javier, Dick Groat, Ken Boyer and Tim McCarver. Been a Cardinal fan since 1959. Dick Groat was one of my favorites because he played at Duke University and for my St. Louis Cardinals. I did not see him play basketball. Go Duke and Go Redbirds!

[MCFinARL]

MLB Network is airing Game 7 of 1960 World Series tonight (12/15) at 8:00 PM EST.

This is the long-lost NBC tape that was recently found in Bing Crosby's wine cellar.

Bob Costas will host with commentary from Bobby Richardson and Bill Mazeroski.

Wow! So glad you mentioned this. I will be watching and expect to find it just as exciting as I did the first time! :)
My spouse (long-time Yankee fan) may have to leave the room....

[77devil]

Will someone please help me understand where all this vitriol against Dick Groat is coming from?

And on a Duke basketball board no less. In my experience, Yankee fans are sore losers.

[verga]

about Clemente and Groat was that both were great players. Clemente certainly had the better career and imo is one of the 15 greatest players to ever play the game. What i don't get is the attitude about Groat and what he could and couldn't do? The powers that be (Pittsburgh & St. Louis general managers) thought enough of Groat to select him as their shortstop for those particular years. He was not a power hitter and he wasn't the greatest defensive ss i've seen either but he was a winner. That counts for quite a bit and imo he should be lauded for his contribution. Clemente had his fair share of problems with the press, i would imagine anyone that far from home and not able to speak the language of the country that he is playing in would fare the same way. Was there racial bias back then, heck yeah, as there is today, as there will always be when you have people of different color and backgrounds. I think the fact that Clemente was 8th. in the voting for MVP that year would show that aside from Groat (who was white, along with Vernon Law) all the other players were people of color. I've never understood why there always has to be an absolute answer to everything, could it be a bit of a lot of things. In my mind that's the way i see it, i saw them both play and both left me with good feelings these many years later. thanks to the poster who started this thread, it brought back a lot of great memories.

[loran16]

Will someone please help me understand where all this vitriol against Dick Groat is coming from? He stands very high in my mind for his accomplishments in college hoops and MLB. Can't say anything about his minor league career, though. He didn't have one. He went straight from the diamond at Coombs field to the starting shortstop for the Pirates. And but for Branch Rickey's reluctance, he could have had a good shot as a guard for the pistons. You people didn't see him play. I did. Relative to the players of the day he was a standout regardless of current interpretations of his stats. He deserved his banner in the rafters and his MVP status. You had to be there.
http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/angry/screaming.gif

There's no actual vitriol here against Groat. No one is saying he wasn't a good player at the time. Moreover, no one is saying he wasn't a great player of both sports at Duke. They're just saying Clemente probably deserved the MVP over him.

To throw in my 2 cents, I'm not sure if it was racism...I wasn't alive at the time. But the MVP award as well as other awards are frequently determined not just by on-the-field play, but on how well sportswriters like the players themselves. This is probably even more true back then, when they didn't have the same resources we do now.

Heck, oddly enough, I'm not even sure Clemente deserved the award over Groat anyhow. In 1960 Wilie Mays hit .319/.381/.555 with 29 HRs and 103 RBIs and 25 SBs, which seems better than Clemente to me (they had access to BA, HRs, RBIs, and SBs I'm sure back in the day, and he led Groat in all of them but BA). It seems like Groat got the award for the best batting average in the league, along with a nice personality.

[Indoor66]

It seems like Groat got the award for the best batting average in the league, along with a nice personality.

His team DID win it all and he led his team in hitting.

[loran16]

His team DID win it all and he led his team in hitting.

I don't know how it was back then, but MVP is nowadays voted on before the playoffs. Him being on a playoff team almost certainly did have something to do with it, though true.

[roywhite]

I don't know how it was back then, but MVP is nowadays voted on before the playoffs. Him being on a playoff team almost certainly did have something to do with it, though true.

To quote Jim Mora: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3-eavMSBnk)

Playoffs?

Ancient history perhaps, but one team won the American League pennant, and one team won the National League pennant in the regular season. Next was the World Series.

Your general point is correct....the MVP voting did precede the World Series.

[loran16]

To quote Jim Mora: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3-eavMSBnk)

Playoffs?

Ancient history perhaps, but one team won the American League pennant, and one team won the National League pennant in the regular season. Next was the World Series..

Correct. I always get the date of when they added the NLCS/ALCS wrong, so i just used a catch-all "playoffs"

[jimsumner]

I had an interesting conversation with Groat about the 1960 World Series. Full disclosure. I was a 10-year-old Yankees fan in 1960. Our teacher let us listen to the game on transistor radioes.

Good times.

My thinking had always been that Pittsburgh was real lucky to win that series and I still wonder how game seven would have played out had that double-play grounder not hit a pebble and then Kubek's throat.

But Groat's position is something along the lines of "they won the blow-outs and we won the close games. So, who's the better team?"

Something to think about.

[CEF1959]

I had an interesting conversation with Groat about the 1960 World Series. Full disclosure. I was a 10-year-old Yankees fan in 1960. Our teacher let us listen to the game on transistor radioes.

Good times.

My thinking had always been that Pittsburgh was real lucky to win that series and I still wonder how game seven would have played out had that double-play grounder not hit a pebble and then Kubek's throat.

But Groat's position is something along the lines of "they won the blow-outs and we won the close games. So, who's the better team?"

Something to think about.

What are you implying? ;)

[rasputin]

I had an interesting conversation with Groat about the 1960 World Series. Full disclosure. I was a 10-year-old Yankees fan in 1960. Our teacher let us listen to the game on transistor radioes.

Good times.

My thinking had always been that Pittsburgh was real lucky to win that series and I still wonder how game seven would have played out had that double-play grounder not hit a pebble and then Kubek's throat.

But Groat's position is something along the lines of "they won the blow-outs and we won the close games. So, who's the better team?"

Something to think about.

I remember Bill James writing an article decades ago debunking the myth that the really good teams find a way to win the close games. He compared the records of good teams in close games, versus their record in blowouts, and found that the real difference was in the blowouts; their record in close games wasn't much different from their record in all games.