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JasonEvans
09-20-2010, 10:32 PM
So, anyone think the Iggles are making a bad move moving Kolb back to the starting job? MV7 has looked really good the past 2 weeks. From a potential standpoint, I think he is far ahead of the very average Kevin Kolb.

-Jason "if Vick did not have a massive PR taint to him, I wonder if the decision to bench him would have been more difficult?" Evans

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ8nCNYxtmX-DpfHPFX5s651m1S7OW6IS5yXmj3CO1j0pVsM7s&t=1&usg=__52msIkZ6dUjz04KUxmSp7nMeXEg=

Bob Green
09-20-2010, 11:29 PM
The Eagles should stay with the hot hand. I have to believe Andy Reid will have Kolb on a very short leash.

DevilHorns
09-21-2010, 12:18 AM
I had to look my pup in the face Sunday as I decided to pick up Vick from the free agency wire in my fantasy league. I then decided to start him over Joe Flacco. My ethics took a backseat for fantasy glory.

I feel dirty.

PS: As a lifelong Dolphins' fan, I have become accustomed to watching a team put a lot of faith in a qb to develop over several years (ie, post-Marino obviously, and I'm mainly talking about Jay Feidler). Sorry Ravens' fans, but you guys have a bust in Joe Flacco. He has entirely far too many weapons to squander opportunities like this. How many overthrows is one too many? How many INTs? They need a replacement.... I'm shaking my head at misguided faith.

hurleyfor3
09-21-2010, 12:21 AM
I don't have a dog in this fight.

The Steelers, otoh... they're really groping for a QB right now with Dixon down.

Acymetric
09-21-2010, 01:56 AM
I had to look my pup in the face Sunday as I decided to pick up Vick from the free agency wire in my fantasy league. I then decided to start him over Joe Flacco. My ethics took a backseat for fantasy glory.

I feel dirty.

PS: As a lifelong Dolphins' fan, I have become accustomed to watching a team put a lot of faith in a qb to develop over several years (ie, post-Marino obviously, and I'm mainly talking about Jay Feidler). Sorry Ravens' fans, but you guys have a bust in Joe Flacco. He has entirely far too many weapons to squander opportunities like this. How many overthrows is one too many? How many INTs? They need a replacement.... I'm shaking my head at misguided faith.

Why not give Troy Smith a shot? He got derailed by an illness at one point and that set him back but maybe he'll be ready. I thought he might have the potential to be a pretty good QB.

elvis14
09-21-2010, 04:27 PM
The Eagles should stay with the hot hand. I have to believe Andy Reid will have Kolb on a very short leash.

I agree with Bob Green. Andy Reid is a very good football coach and I know they want to build for the future but they are good enough to make the playoffs right now and right now I think MV7 gives them the best shot at winning games. Plus, he's really fun to watch.

Mal
09-21-2010, 06:30 PM
Well, you guys got your wish - Vick's just been named the starter for Week 3 and possibly going forward. http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/13990581/vick-named-eagles-starting-qb

I'm not so sure it's a great idea (unless Kolb's still having concussion symptoms, in which case it's essential), well aside from any PR issues it might bring about.

For one thing, Vick blew up last week against the Lions, who are not a good defense, so that's not an indication of much. Likewise this week against the Jags, who have looked like a sieve the first two weeks - Vick will totally abuse them, but they're a terrible football team. For another, I think we may be overstating the mediocrity of Kolb. I mean, the guy started two games last year and threw for like 700 yards. He appeared then to be perfectly capable of leading the Eagles to the playoffs, so I don't know if I buy that one bad half in Week 1 against the chic pick for NFC Super Bowl representative means he stinks now. Finally, we all know the ultimate story on Vick now - he can make some fabulous plays, but his decisionmaking is questionable (on the field and off - badumdum) and he kills too many drives by throwing three or four really poor passes in a row. Over the long haul, that's going to clash with Andy Reid. He won't use Celek and Maclin the way Kolb would, and once teams adjust to make sure that hell or high water they don't let DeSean Jackson get behind the secondary when Vick's on the move, his impact should be lessened.

I could be completely wrong, and part of me is just annoyed I didn't bid enough on Vick to get him off waivers for my fanstasy team now that my QB situation is completely snafu'd.

Side note - the return of the old Eagles uni's against Green Bay was a great idea. Please make them permanent.

gus
09-21-2010, 08:08 PM
I don't have a dog in this fight.


boooo.

weezie
09-21-2010, 08:12 PM
I don't have a dog in this fight.

The Steelers, otoh... they're really groping for a QB right now with Dixon down.


boooo.

Ahhh, the wags are out and about tonight.....

tommy
09-21-2010, 11:02 PM
I had to look my pup in the face Sunday as I decided to pick up Vick from the free agency wire in my fantasy league. I then decided to start him over Joe Flacco. My ethics took a backseat for fantasy glory.

I feel dirty.

PS: As a lifelong Dolphins' fan, I have become accustomed to watching a team put a lot of faith in a qb to develop over several years (ie, post-Marino obviously, and I'm mainly talking about Jay Feidler). Sorry Ravens' fans, but you guys have a bust in Joe Flacco. He has entirely far too many weapons to squander opportunities like this. How many overthrows is one too many? How many INTs? They need a replacement.... I'm shaking my head at misguided faith.

I happen to be a lifelong Dolphins' fan too, and our list of QB failures since Marino is long indeed. Much longer than just Jay Fiedler.

+But you're not serious that Joe Flacco is a "bust," are you? The kid is just starting his 3rd year. Last year, he threw for over 3600 yards, with 21 TDs vs 12 INT's, and led them to the playoffs and an opening round thrashing of the Patriots before bowing out to the Colts on the road. His numbers were up significantly from his rookie year, where he threw for 2900 yards and only 14 TD's.

This guy is a solid NFL QB and getting better, despite that, at least prior to this year, his receiving corps has been average at best. And he's been a winner. Sure he played poorly against the Bengals on Sunday, but come on. It's one game.

Way too many coaches have way too quick a hook with their QB's. Seems like 7 or 8 are switching already, after just two games. Ridiculous. Flacco should not even be considered for that kind of treatment. A bust? Try DeMarcus Russell. Try Joey Harrington. Guys of that ilk. Compare their careers to Flacco's and I think you'll see what a real bust looks like.

Deslok
09-21-2010, 11:26 PM
Well, you could still use the term for him in one sense. As someone who ended up with him(because I just missed out on getting Philip Rivers... sigh), Flacco has been a fantasy bust this year. But that's just because we were hoping for some big numbers from him. The first 2 games this year(and making a judgement based upon only 2 games is precarious at best) do have to shift his projections for the future. After last years excellent year, and the addition of some more weapons to the offense, it really looked like Flacco could be headed towards stardom at the QB position. Now that's downgraded to just that he looks to be a solid NFL QB for years to come - and certainly a step up from their Super Bowl winning QB of Trent Dilfer. But nowhere near a bust.

DevilHorns
09-21-2010, 11:39 PM
I happen to be a lifelong Dolphins' fan too, and our list of QB failures since Marino is long indeed. Much longer than just Jay Fiedler.

+But you're not serious that Joe Flacco is a "bust," are you? The kid is just starting his 3rd year. Last year, he threw for over 3600 yards, with 21 TDs vs 12 INT's, and led them to the playoffs and an opening round thrashing of the Patriots before bowing out to the Colts on the road. His numbers were up significantly from his rookie year, where he threw for 2900 yards and only 14 TD's.

This guy is a solid NFL QB and getting better, despite that, at least prior to this year, his receiving corps has been average at best. And he's been a winner. Sure he played poorly against the Bengals on Sunday, but come on. It's one game.

Way too many coaches have way too quick a hook with their QB's. Seems like 7 or 8 are switching already, after just two games. Ridiculous. Flacco should not even be considered for that kind of treatment. A bust? Try DeMarcus Russell. Try Joey Harrington. Guys of that ilk. Compare their careers to Flacco's and I think you'll see what a real bust looks like.

I honestly believe you give an NFL starting qb 3 years to prove himself. If you wait too long, then your defense ages, you lose players in their prime, etc...and the job of improving the team becomes harder.

Jay Fiedler was frankly given far too much time as the starting qb for the Dolphins. Everyone just wanted to believe. At times he did give us some good games, but in the end, he just averaged as a mediocre qb that never lived up to the role that we expect of a Dolphins qb. Now the Ravens have won a superbowl with the worst qb ever to win a superbowl in Trent Dilfer. Their perspective on this could be different. Their leaders(Reed, Lewis, Mason, etc) are getting older and they've just recently picked up weapons (TJ H, Bouldin, etc) to try and take them over that mythical hump to legitimate superbowl contender. If Flacco fails this year, I honestly think they should start looking elsewhere. How long can you have faith? Just watching him qb this first two games of the season makes my stomach turn. So many overthrows and bad decisions.

bjornolf
09-22-2010, 07:50 AM
I don't see how you can compare Joe Flacco to Jay Fiedler in terms of busts. Fiedler got two years to learn the NFL QB job as a backup at Minnesota and Jacksonville before going to Miami. Fiedler's better year of his first two matched Flacco's worse year of the two in rating. Flacco completed a higher percentage while passing more times. Flacco averaged more yards per pass, and Flacco has a +11 TD/INT differential compared to a +1. And Flacco was thrown into a bad situation as a rookie...and he swam. So he MIGHT be having his sophomore slump a year late. However, you have to remember, he's having a bad start, but as you said, he's got all these new weapons. It takes time to work out your timing and reads with new players. Give him a couple more games. I think he'll come around. It's WAY too early to call him a bust, OR compare him to Fiedler, IMHO. Plus, you have to remember, he's played two of the better defenses he'll face this season, one of them a division rival that's familiar with him. Give him some time. If he still looks bad at the halfway mark, when he's gotten shots at Cleveland, Buffalo, and Denver, we'll talk.

Look at McNabb. Compare his first game as a Redskin to his second game. And he STILL isn't hitting everything. A few more games to get the timing down, and he might have had two more TDs and 70 more yards passing in that Texans game.

So far this year, I'd say Kevin Kolb is looking more like a bust than Flacco. And I don't think it's fair to call Kolb that yet either.

Here's the numbers for their first two years of starting. Sorry I don't know how to format tables on here:

Jay Fiedler:
YEAR TEAM G CMP ATT PCT YDS AVG TD LNG INT FUM RAT
2000 MIA 15 204 357 57.1 2402 6.7 14 61 14 0 74.5
2001 MIA 16 273 450 60.7 3290 7.3 20 74 19 3 80.3

Joe Flacco
YEAR TEAM G CMP ATT PCT YDS AVG TD LNG INT FUM RAT
2008 BAL 16 257 428 60.0 2971 6.9 14 70 12 6 80.3
2009 BAL 16 315 499 63.1 3613 7.2 21 72 12 6 88.9

*stats from ESPN.com

calltheobvious
09-22-2010, 09:54 AM
boooo.

Speaking of boo, check out today's front page of the Philadelphia Daily News.

http://www.newseum.org/todaysfrontpages/hr.asp?fpVname=PA_PDN&ref_pge=lst

Ping Lin
09-22-2010, 10:57 AM
The thing that I find mighty strange about all this is the timing of it.

On Monday, we had Reid say Kolb would be the starter in Week 3, and even Vick was saying all the right things, Kolb should start, I'm just happy to help out, etc. etc.

Then, BAM, Reid pulls a 180 the following day, with no explanation.

To me, this reeks of someone higher up pulling some strings (management or owner)... it's hard to imagine how it could be otherwise.

A-Tex Devil
09-22-2010, 12:21 PM
The thing that I find mighty strange about all this is the timing of it.

On Monday, we had Reid say Kolb would be the starter in Week 3, and even Vick was saying all the right things, Kolb should start, I'm just happy to help out, etc. etc.

Then, BAM, Reid pulls a 180 the following day, with no explanation.

To me, this reeks of someone higher up pulling some strings (management or owner)... it's hard to imagine how it could be otherwise.

Reid reacted quickly on Monday to say Kolb was the QB. Apparently, Vick graded out so well on tape (**cough** Lions **cough**) that they felt the best way to win was with Vick. NFL teams do extensive grading and analysis of game tape that probably doesn't get final until late Monday/Tuesday. After further analysis of the game tape, Vick's play was actually BETTER than how it may have appeared to the casual viewer. Whether we buy all that or not is a different story, but it is plausible.

Ping Lin
09-22-2010, 12:55 PM
Reid reacted quickly on Monday to say Kolb was the QB. Apparently, Vick graded out so well on tape (**cough** Lions **cough**) that they felt the best way to win was with Vick. NFL teams do extensive grading and analysis of game tape that probably doesn't get final until late Monday/Tuesday. After further analysis of the game tape, Vick's play was actually BETTER than how it may have appeared to the casual viewer. Whether we buy all that or not is a different story, but it is plausible.

That's all well and good, but if it's the case they didn't look at the tapes yet, then why bother saying *anything* at all on Monday? Why not a nice neutral, "We'll have to evaluate how Kolb is feeling before we make a decision," or some such?

In other words, why risk shooting yourself in the tongue by invalidating what you've just said when you haven't finalized your decision from the game film yet?

No, there's a lot more to it than that, I feel.

Bob Green
09-22-2010, 04:59 PM
No, there's a lot more to it than that, I feel.

I'm not buying into any conspiracy theories here. IMO, this is a case of Andy Reid changing his mind after analyzing the game tape and concluding Vick provides the Eagles the best chance to win next Sunday.

DevilHorns
09-22-2010, 06:40 PM
I don't see how you can compare Joe Flacco to Jay Fiedler in terms of busts. Fiedler got two years to learn the NFL QB job as a backup at Minnesota and Jacksonville before going to Miami. Fiedler's better year of his first two matched Flacco's worse year of the two in rating. Flacco completed a higher percentage while passing more times. Flacco averaged more yards per pass, and Flacco has a +11 TD/INT differential compared to a +1. And Flacco was thrown into a bad situation as a rookie...and he swam. So he MIGHT be having his sophomore slump a year late. However, you have to remember, he's having a bad start, but as you said, he's got all these new weapons. It takes time to work out your timing and reads with new players. Give him a couple more games. I think he'll come around. It's WAY too early to call him a bust, OR compare him to Fiedler, IMHO. Plus, you have to remember, he's played two of the better defenses he'll face this season, one of them a division rival that's familiar with him. Give him some time. If he still looks bad at the halfway mark, when he's gotten shots at Cleveland, Buffalo, and Denver, we'll talk.

Look at McNabb. Compare his first game as a Redskin to his second game. And he STILL isn't hitting everything. A few more games to get the timing down, and he might have had two more TDs and 70 more yards passing in that Texans game.

So far this year, I'd say Kevin Kolb is looking more like a bust than Flacco. And I don't think it's fair to call Kolb that yet either.

Here's the numbers for their first two years of starting. Sorry I don't know how to format tables on here:

Jay Fiedler:
YEAR TEAM G CMP ATT PCT YDS AVG TD LNG INT FUM RAT
2000 MIA 15 204 357 57.1 2402 6.7 14 61 14 0 74.5
2001 MIA 16 273 450 60.7 3290 7.3 20 74 19 3 80.3

Joe Flacco
YEAR TEAM G CMP ATT PCT YDS AVG TD LNG INT FUM RAT
2008 BAL 16 257 428 60.0 2971 6.9 14 70 12 6 80.3
2009 BAL 16 315 499 63.1 3613 7.2 21 72 12 6 88.9

*stats from ESPN.com

Time will tell my friend. It's a prediction. I think he's a bust. We'll see if it turns out to be true. Flacco has never impressed me (and I happen to watch a decent number of Ravens' games as I'm in Baltimore).

bjornolf
09-22-2010, 06:49 PM
Time will tell my friend. It's a prediction. I think he's a bust. We'll see if it turns out to be true. Flacco has never impressed me (and I happen to watch a decent number of Ravens' games as I'm in Baltimore).

Hey, I'm not saying he WON'T be a bust. I'm just saying it's a little early to say that, and DEFINITELY a little early to start throwing around comparisons to Fiedler.

4decadedukie
09-22-2010, 10:31 PM
Vick clearly is an exceptional quarterback, but he is also a proven, reprehensible human being. Maybe the Eagles will benefit from his athleticism; however, I am concerned that -- in the long-run -- he will be corrosive to the team, due to “high maintenance” and to illicit behavior. Some suggest that he has learned from his felonious debacle and Federal incarceration. Frankly, I would like to believe that is true, but criminals on probation who have, in fact, realized their errors and altered their lives simply do not go to nightclubs, or associate with lawbreakers, or become involved (even tangentially) in shootings. Any responsible, intelligent convict -- and especially one who was still on parole -- would ensure that he NEVER placed himself in such circumstances.

weezie
09-24-2010, 09:59 PM
Yeah, sure, ok.
Keep in mind that Vickie performed his latest feats of magic against my Lions. We're not talking super challenge here folks.
Simmer down Beavisssss......

davekay1971
09-25-2010, 07:50 AM
The Iggles starting Vick just gives me another reason to hate them. It was almost uncomfortable for me with the McNabb years...the Iggles having a good, likeable quarterback. Kind of like the difficulty I had with Antawn Jamison playing for the 'Holes. I'm much more at peace when the teams I irrationally hate have guys on them that justify my hatred.

As an aside, a patient of mine worked with some of the dogs rescued from Vick's operation. The stories are absolutely disgusting. Vick may be an otherwise stellar guy, but what he did with those dogs demonstrates a sickness of character.

cf-62
10-04-2010, 10:15 AM
I've seen nothing to indicate that MV is corrosive to a team. If anything, they were in a position to win with Kolb at the end because MV and KK have a great relationship going.

There have been some interesting points about "associating with..." where people on parole or convicts that are truly rehabilitated shouldn't be caught.

But if you look at how "decent" people treat the guy, wouldn't it stand to reason that those that still associate with him would be "those kinds" of people?

If there's anything I find disgusting in legal - and societal - circles, it is guilt by association.