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duke09hms
09-19-2010, 07:07 PM
Hey there everyone,

Some thoughts from the last game vs. Alabama:
I agree with many posters about simply being physically outmatched against Alabama, we did the best we could. Probably could have scored a few more points if our receivers had less drops, but playing Alabama and "hearing footsteps" probably had a lot to do with it.

A previous poster mentioned a similarity to Wake Forest and how we could strive to be like them due to relative size, resources, and academic credentials. While Wake is a good school with a great program, it seems that . . .

A higher but just as attainable goal for Duke football should be Stanford. Here we have an institution that is just as academically respected, same small student body of ~6400, faces the same recruiting hurdles, and draws students from around the country and globe. With new coach Jim Harbaugh, the Cardinal have rebounded from 2-9, 4-7, 4-7, 5-6, 1-11 seasons from 2002-2006 with 4-8, 5-7, and 8-4 seasons from 2007-2009. They are now nationally ranked and have the #7 recruiting class (8 four-star players, 13 three-stars) signed in the country right behind Notre Dame and ahead of Florida and Florida State.

Now of course I realize they had a MUCH shallower hole to dig out of compared to Duke's decades of negligence, but I'm interested to hear others' viewpoints and what are the main hurdles concerning how realistic Duke can strive to be like Stanford: a perennial top-25 football program, contending for the ACC title, able to consistently attract 4-star talent.

For me, I think facilities and national perception are what need the most work (any $1 billion donors anyone like stanford got?), but I see this goal as being eminently possible in the future.

Devil in the Blue Dress
09-19-2010, 07:26 PM
Hey there everyone,

Some thoughts from the last game vs. Alabama:
I agree with many posters about simply being physically outmatched against Alabama, we did the best we could. Probably could have scored a few more points if our receivers had less drops, but playing Alabama and "hearing footsteps" probably had a lot to do with it.

A previous poster mentioned a similarity to Wake Forest and how we could strive to be like them due to relative size, resources, and academic credentials. While Wake is a good school with a great program, it seems that . . .

A higher but just as attainable goal for Duke football should be Stanford. Here we have an institution that is just as academically respected, same small student body of ~6400, faces the same recruiting hurdles, and draws students from around the country and globe. With new coach Jim Harbaugh, the Cardinal have rebounded from 2-9, 4-7, 4-7, 5-6, 1-11 seasons from 2002-2006 with 4-8, 5-7, and 8-4 seasons from 2007-2009. They are now nationally ranked and have the #7 recruiting class (8 four-star players, 13 three-stars) signed in the country right behind Notre Dame and ahead of Florida and Florida State.

Now of course I realize they had a MUCH shallower hole to dig out of compared to Duke's decades of negligence, but I'm interested to hear others' viewpoints and what are the main hurdles concerning how realistic Duke can strive to be like Stanford: a perennial top-25 football program, contending for the ACC title, able to consistently attract 4-star talent.

For me, I think facilities and national perception are what need the most work (any $1 billion donors anyone like stanford got?), but I see this goal as being eminently possible in the future.

Perhaps you noticed that Stanford beat Wake Forest yesterday, 68 to 24.

4decadedukie
09-19-2010, 09:01 PM
Duke and Stanford have much in common, perhaps most significantly we are among the only top-tier US universities that do not measure our histories in hundreds of years.

Obviously, I like the idea of Duke's developing the consistent the level of football excellence that Stanford has attained. I wonder, however, if Stanford's somewhat unique status as the West Coast's premier university (Berkley and Cal Tech, notwithstanding) may provide recruiting advantages that an Eastern top-tier school simply can never equal (too much competition from the Ivy League, etc.)?

rthomas
09-19-2010, 09:13 PM
Elon!!!!!!!!

johnb
09-19-2010, 09:26 PM
Duke and Stanford have much in common, perhaps most significantly we are among the only top-tier US universities that do not measure our histories in hundreds of years.

Obviously, I like the idea of Duke's developing the consistent the level of football excellence that Stanford has attained. I wonder, however, if Stanford's somewhat unique status as the West Coast's premier university (Berkley and Cal Tech, notwithstanding) may provide recruiting advantages that an Eastern top-tier school simply can never equal (too much competition from the Ivy League, etc.)?

We already have the best top tier (as in usn&wr) football team on the east coast. We don't lose anybody to ivy league schools, Williams, etc.

I think we need to get a critical mass of athletes who can convince academically-oriented 4 star hs players around the country that they won't be better served by going to State U.

duke09hms
09-20-2010, 12:55 AM
Much has been made of Coach Cut's heavy recruiting in NC. While that is good for the positive press it generates, I do think such a regional focus can only be a short-term solution while we transition to a more national draw for the top academically qualified recruits.

Facilities seem to be purely a financial matter - I know that plans to completely renovate Wallace Wade are in motion, and it seems as if the Yoh Football Complex is competitive.

uh_no
09-20-2010, 12:59 AM
, and it seems as if the Yoh Football Complex is competitive.

The lack of a 100yd indoor facility is a problem

mkline09
09-20-2010, 08:55 AM
For Duke to be more competitive in football it will boil down to two things: facility improvements and recruiting. For those things to happen you need a good coach who is willing to go to bat for the program. Duke has that. They've made strides in facility improvements (finally have a 100 yard practice facility), and recruiting.

Cut has recruited NC hard and many of the prospective recruits at the Alabama game were from NC. He is also focusing on speed which has improved.

Facilities are a tougher situation. There are proposals to build an indoor practice field which is apparently a done deal. There are further plans to expand and improve Wallace Wade. That might happen if attendance continues to be good. So far there are new concessions and restrooms but there is still much work to be done to improve those and the overall concourse area. Any additonal seating also in the long-term plan would require continued sell-outs and that is tough to do if you put out a 4-8, 5-7 program.

It won't happen over night but it is getting there.

Duke really needs the students to turn out for games as that helps improve the overall atmosphere of the game. The students were great against Alabama but will they show against Army? If history is any indication they won't.

As many have already pointed out Duke was probably the worst FBS program in America before Cut took over. They are improving a lot but it is sometimes hard to tell when you have been so bad. Also the basketball program overshaddows everything and when you have that type of success it is hard to measure up.

fuse
09-20-2010, 09:17 AM
I'd be thrilled if Duke became a consistent 6-5 team (be bowl eligible) with seasons at 5-6 on the low end and maybe 7-4, 8-3 on the high end.

If we become a team that no matter the opponent we can come in, expect to win and be competitive (all are close games, no blowouts) that would be another great aspiration.

-g

mkline09
09-20-2010, 09:44 AM
I'd be thrilled if Duke became a consistent 6-5 team (be bowl eligible) with seasons at 5-6 on the low end and maybe 7-4, 8-3 on the high end.

If we become a team that no matter the opponent we can come in, expect to win and be competitive (all are close games, no blowouts) that would be another great aspiration.

-g

Couldn't agree more. I think it is possible mainly because it has been done and without the kind of support Cut is giving and getting toward the program.

DevilWolf
09-20-2010, 10:51 AM
I look 8 miles down the road to a school that has elite level facilities, a large and loyal fanbase, access to massive amounts of money, in-roads with every high school in the state, serves as the flagship to our state university network, and has accomplished absolutely nothing in their pursuit to be considered one of the top 25 football programs in the country year in and year out - all while cutting some major corners in the process.

I think Duke football should run its own race and not look to Wake (who I fully believe is approaching the back-end of their arc of success) or Stanford or anyone for a path to follow. I think we have good leadership in place with Cut and Dr. White, and I think Broadhead is committed to staying out of their way because there is trust that they'll do things the right way.

Away from the field, Cut is working to connect the team to Durham because our group of local alums and fans isn't large enough to support the team without help from the community. Dr. White seems to be doing a good job of working the big money folks. On the field we've built an exciting offense which is a good first step in generating interest. People get interested in shootouts, nobody wants to start following a team who exchanges three-and-outs with their opponents. Over time, our defense will catch up.

The one missing piece I see is I have no idea how football will become part of the culture for the students.

killerleft
09-20-2010, 10:51 AM
If we aspire to less than being conference champions and routinely getting top 25 rankings I hope we just give up football!

Seriously. We can get there. But not with the attitude that 5 or 6 wins is reason for celebration and the best we can do.

Scorp4me
09-20-2010, 11:30 AM
I look 8 miles down the road to a school that has elite level facilities, a large and loyal fanbase, access to massive amounts of money, in-roads with every high school in the state, serves as the flagship to our state university network, and has accomplished absolutely nothing in their pursuit to be considered one of the top 25 football programs in the country year in and year out - all while cutting some major corners in the process.

I think Duke football should run its own race and not look to Wake (who I fully believe is approaching the back-end of their arc of success) or Stanford or anyone for a path to follow. I think we have good leadership in place with Cut and Dr. White, and I think Broadhead is committed to staying out of their way because there is trust that they'll do things the right way.

Away from the field, Cut is working to connect the team to Durham because our group of local alums and fans isn't large enough to support the team without help from the community. Dr. White seems to be doing a good job of working the big money folks. On the field we've built an exciting offense which is a good first step in generating interest. People get interested in shootouts, nobody wants to start following a team who exchanges three-and-outs with their opponents. Over time, our defense will catch up.

The one missing piece I see is I have no idea how football will become part of the culture for the students.

That's is an excellent reply. So good I rated it which is a first for me. Exactly what I wanted to say and said better. Just a wonderful reply.

DevilWolf might I ask you to comment on this quote from a recent Alabama article. "Students wear Halloween costumes to the games, almost as if to indicate the football games are just a big joke."

I've tried countless times and while I couldn't agree with the paper more and would go even further to point out that they look stupid and I do my best to let them know...I'd be interested to hear what you say. I've written countless post on this and always deleted them as not quite hitting the correct message.

jjh1080
09-20-2010, 02:26 PM
They should drop down a level, to the Football Championship Subdivision (FCS).

Kewlswim
09-20-2010, 02:37 PM
They should drop down a level, to the Football Championship Subdivision (FCS).

Hi,

Why should we drop down because we got our hats handed to us by 'Bama? No, we learn from the experience. We are competitive with the teams in the ACC, Alabama is a notch (or more) better than any team in our conference. We are just starting to turn the corner. There is excitement in the air. By the way, I doubt the ACC allows its member schools to drop to the FCS. I am sure that there could be arrangements made because Duke is such a powerful basketball drawing card, but the Devils don't want to be "special" members of the conference. NO, we are here to stay and to build and to look back and to rise from the ashes. GO DUKE!

4decadedukie
09-20-2010, 03:28 PM
They should drop down a level, to the Football Championship Subdivision (FCS).

I respectfully, but vehemently, disagree.

Roy Bostock, who is critical in the football's financial/development and facilitization processes, recently indicated that all things Duke should demonstrate world-class excellence – and that includes our rejuvenated football program. I strongly concur. Obviously, balances must be achieved; for example, no one wants – and Duke would never permit – the recruiting and admission of academically unqualified “four star” football prospects to increase wins but also to compromise long-valued academic- and stature-standards. That would demean Duke. On the other hand, we should not settle for mediocre football objectives. I believe the Stanford paradigm is worth emulating.

OldPhiKap
09-20-2010, 03:40 PM
We should aspire for excellence.

We should expect, in time, to be competitive for division championships and beyond.

We should be proud if our team grows and represents our university well.

I personally will be thrilled with each and every bowl invitation we may be fortunate to receive in the future.



I am not sure that comparisons to other programs are particularly helpful (to me, at least). We Are Duke. And, hopefully, as the program builds that will be enough.

Now, let's beat Army and go from there.

killerleft
09-20-2010, 03:45 PM
They should drop down a level, to the Football Championship Subdivision (FCS).

I don't think we should give up the ghost only 3 years after deciding to upgrade our football program. Only a wimp or a troll would suggest otherwise.

The plan takes time, and we've already seen very good results since Coach Cut got here. Two straight sellouts at Wallace Wade would have seemed out of reach a few years ago, which I take as a sign that many people believe Coach Cut is laying the groundwork for a great football program at Duke.

The season is as young as our defense. Bring on Army!

Reilly
09-20-2010, 03:58 PM
"We want people to understand we're here to win championships. People are going to laugh. I hope they do. It just adds fuel to the fire." -- David Cutcliffe

http://espn.go.com/blog/acc/post/_/id/29/q-amp-a-with-duke-coach-david-cutcliffe#more

Greg_Newton
09-20-2010, 04:31 PM
DevilWolf might I ask you to comment on this quote from a recent Alabama article. "Students wear Halloween costumes to the games, almost as if to indicate the football games are just a big joke."

I've tried countless times and while I couldn't agree with the paper more and would go even further to point out that they look stupid and I do my best to let them know...I'd be interested to hear what you say. I've written countless post on this and always deleted them as not quite hitting the correct message.

I certainly understand where you're coming from here. However, I think it's important to keep perspective. Remember that these are kids who graduated at the top of their classes and are used to cheering for a dominant basketball team, and like it or not, there's going to a pride issue in getting a lot of these students to go all-in for a team that's not yet up to par physically with the rest of the league.

And more importantly, consider the current Duke senior class; pre-Cut, they were five years old the last time Duke won more than four games. Between ages 11-18 - the age range they're most likely to have started to pay attention to football - Duke won a grand total of 9 games. When they arrived on campus, we were in the final year of a 2-33 streak! Really, who could blame them for carrying on the ironic tailgate tradition? The administration didn't take football seriously, the team was chronically outmanned and out of shape, and Duke football has never been anything but a joke to them.

Last fall, there was a hefty discussion here on how to get those students to actually come to the games, rather than just tailgating and going home. For this season, I'll be thrilled if the student section is anywhere close to full, costumes or not. I think it will take Cut pulling off a 7-5 bowl year with an athletic returning core of his 2 and 3 star, diamond-in-the-rough recruits, before people really buy Duke football's resurgence. Then, not only will we start pulling in 3-stars more consistently and the occasional 4-star, students will start to accept the institution as one deserving of their unabashed support.

Hopefully, this happens by 2012 or so. Then you'll have a senior class who matriculated last season, and the excitement around the program they saw as freshman will have grown to - dare I say it - pride. They'll pass that down to the underclassmen, and so on, and I can see some of the greek organizations start going with the more traditional seersucker/ties/sundress attire once they view Duke football games as a legitimate outing. If there are still some costumes mixed in, great. As long as they're actually into the games, it will just add character - kind of like some prominant members of this board did during their stints in Cameron!

Devil in the Blue Dress
09-20-2010, 04:36 PM
During our discussions of costumes at football games, let's not forget that most of the students in the stands in Cameron during a basketball game are in costume. The significant difference is that at the basketball games, the costumes all have a more universal focus ..... support the team.

CameronBornAndBred
09-20-2010, 05:45 PM
I don't have anything wrong with the costumes, it adds to the atmosphere. As an artist, I really enjoy seeing their creativity. I've never seen any NFL announcer showing some of the goofy getups in the stands saying "it's too bad that guy came to the game like that".
WHEN Duke begins to go bowling on a regular basis, and WHEN Duke is on TV Thursday nights, those kids are gonna be the stars in the stands and I can guarantee you they will get comparisons to the Crazies...as well they should..they are the same people.
I've yet to have anyone come up to me in the Card lot during our tailgate and say "your hat is stupid, take it off before the game". It's fun, it adds to the day. I could easily see showing up wearing a tutu myself with my hat...I'm at the games to have fun..AND support our team. You don't have to look perfect to cheer the Devils on. I think it gives us something unique that the other schools don't have...and for a program trying to build culture uniqueness should be celebrated, not rejected.

Mal
09-20-2010, 06:02 PM
I second Greg Newton's points above. Consistent competitiveness will beget students who actually care about the football team and follow it (rather than the other way around). At that point, if they come to games in silly costumes the perception will turn from "they do that because they see the whole exercise as a joke" to "it's Cameron at Wallace Wade" and "it's a delightfully unique contribution to the college football landscape."

Also, I think we should keep in mind the student body size here when discussing how important getting campus buy-in is. Certainly, some excitement amongst the classmates of the guys on the team is helpful, but in terms of filling the stadium with friendly faces, Duke's still going to be a lot more dependent on the non-student, non-alum local area population than any of its competitors besides Wake. Even if 1/2 the undergrads and 1/3 of the grad students on campus made it to every home game (which seems very aggressive, even for a program with a strong history of success and school football spirit), we're talking 5,000 rears in seats. That's only 1/7 the current stadium size.

Re: Devilwolf's question about how to make football a part of campus culture, beyond the simple answer of "start winning more games and it'll happen on its own," I hope Cutcliffe continues to schedule legit out of conference programs, especially from the SEC but preferably not always the defending national champion ;), to visit Durham. I was on campus when Florida State first came to town back in '93, and their people brought what was likely the first big caravan of RV's to Wade ever. There were FSU people all over the place, admiring campus, cheering on pickup games on those practice fields down off D.U. Road, taking over Ninth Street. My house, who usually showed up for maybe half the home games, trashed, and rarely stayed until halftime (this was very typical of the student body in general in that era), had a significantly higher lever of investment in that game. It was legitimately exciting, even though everyone knew Charlie Ward and Warrick Dunn were going to wipe the field with us.

Well, imagine in a couple years from now we're a stronger, say borderline top 25 sort of team, and Ole Miss or Tennessee comes to town, bringing 5,000 people. Wouldn't every Duke student who either grew up in the South or grew up following college football be totally jazzed for that and turn out for the game? Any p-frosh visiting campus that weekend who cared about such things when evaluating where to go to college would think "Wow, basketball and football? Sold." And eventually you've got a student body made up of more people inclined to pay attention to the school's football team in a serious way.

Indoor66
09-20-2010, 06:05 PM
I don't have anything wrong with the costumes, it adds to the atmosphere. As an artist, I really enjoy seeing their creativity. I've never seen any NFL announcer showing some of the goofy getups in the stands saying "it's too bad that guy came to the game like that".
WHEN Duke begins to go bowling on a regular basis, and WHEN Duke is on TV Thursday nights, those kids are gonna be the stars in the stands and I can guarantee you they will get comparisons to the Crazies...as well they should..they are the same people.
I've yet to have anyone come up to me in the Card lot during our tailgate and say "your hat is stupid, take it off before the game". It's fun, it adds to the day. I could easily see showing up wearing a tutu myself with my hat...I'm at the games to have fun..AND support our team. You don't have to look perfect to cheer the Devils on. I think it gives us something unique that the other schools don't have...and for a program trying to build culture uniqueness should be celebrated, not rejected.

I want a picture of the tutu with the hat! :cool:

CameronBornAndBred
09-20-2010, 06:10 PM
I want a picture of the tutu with the hat! :cool:
HA!...I could play "attire police" and requisition one. "Sorry young lady, that tutu is not befitting apparel for a football game, so I'm going to have to take it. You may pick it up at the end of the season."

brevity
09-20-2010, 06:55 PM
They should drop down a level, to the Football Championship Subdivision (FCS).

If you mean that Duke football should take a page from Duke basketball and insist that the only true way to win a championship is by having a playoff, then yeah, I can support this sentiment.

Otherwise, no.

Scorp4me
09-21-2010, 10:56 AM
...

Hopefully, this happens by 2012 or so. Then you'll have a senior class who matriculated last season, and the excitement around the program they saw as freshman will have grown to - dare I say it - pride....

Alright, I'll buy that. When the group of students who obviously match the last few years of losing with their attitudes in the stands graduate and make way for some who seem to have some sense and pride I'll revisit this topic. But as you suggested I'll give them a few years. I only hope Cut doesn't take the same attitude with the team on the field.

And to the person who said they never saw anyone tell them it looked stupid you didn't come past me. My wife is constantly berating me for laughing and pointing at people who dress stupid. I tell her if I don't do it how will they ever learn what idiots they look like.

I'll also agree whole heartedly with Devil In A Blue Dress. I've seen the argument that they are simply emulating the Cameron Craziness with their costumes. But there is a decided difference between the two.

ChillinDuke
09-21-2010, 11:43 AM
Alright, I'll buy that. When the group of students who obviously match the last few years of losing with their attitudes in the stands graduate and make way for some who seem to have some sense and pride I'll revisit this topic. But as you suggested I'll give them a few years. I only hope Cut doesn't take the same attitude with the team on the field.

And to the person who said they never saw anyone tell them it looked stupid you didn't come past me. My wife is constantly berating me for laughing and pointing at people who dress stupid. I tell her if I don't do it how will they ever learn what idiots they look like.

I'll also agree whole heartedly with Devil In A Blue Dress. I've seen the argument that they are simply emulating the Cameron Craziness with their costumes. But there is a decided difference between the two.

As a 2009 graduate, I respectfully (but completely) disagree. Football season was one of my friends' and my favorite times on campus. And the ridiculousness that is a Duke tailgate is unparalleled. I routinely had friends from other schools come to Duke tailgates/football games and rave about how insanely fun they were: Va Tech, UNC (routinely took the bus over), Wake, UGA, and Auburn (plus some smaller schools like Elon). It was COMMON for these visitors to make statements resembling, "If only your football team won, this would have been one of the best gamedays I've ever had!" I'm not bending the truth at all.

Duke tailgates are ridiculous, silly, dopey, over-the-top, [your adjective here]. And there is room for debate and disagreement on those words.

But the one thing I am saying (and I hope there is not much disagreement on this point) is that Duke tailgates are UNIQUE! They add character to gamedays. Visiting students want to check it out. Opposing teams' tailgaters/alumni want to check it out. It's just not your run-of-the-mill tailgate. And I'd be willing to bet that the raucous atmosphere (costumes included) would be fantastic for games if only we could stay competitive against good teams.

For all those posters who have said Duke should run its own race to build its football program, Duke tailgates are the exact embodiment of that. It's our own take on football - not Wake's, not Stanford's, not some cookie-cutter definition of what a tailgate should be.

Now, if the students would just continue the support and stay at the game...

I, for one, will be there next weekend. Tailgating AND cheering on the team for a full 60 minutes, rain or shine, blowout or nailbiter, costume or plainclothes.

Go Duke!

devil84
09-21-2010, 11:44 AM
I'll also agree whole heartedly with Devil In A Blue Dress. I've seen the argument that they are simply emulating the Cameron Craziness with their costumes. But there is a decided difference between the two.

The difference is that the costumed Crazies in Cameron tend to come in prior to the non-student spectators. Standing in the student section or circulating in the crowded concourse at the half, it's hard to see a full view of individual students. Viewed collectively, the individual quirks are downplayed. And many of the 7,000 or so non-student spectators have been going to Cameron for many years and are used to it.

Contrast that to Wallace Wade, where the student section is a few sections of a much larger group. The students arrive with the rest of the spectators. Students mingle more with the non-student spectators in the concourse than at basketball games, and with slightly fewer people per square foot, it's easier to see the complete costume as an individual instead of an assemblage of characters. And there are far more families and people unaccustomed to such costumes than there are in Cameron. And yes, there does seem to be a difference in the costumes. There seem to be more that aren't so family-friendly at Wade (but is that because I can see them better?).

Another difference is that the costumed Cameron Crazies tend to stay for the whole game (admittedly, it's tougher to stay for losses, and Cameron sees few home losses). Is that the difference we're perceiving? That it's OK if they dress in costume for basketball games and stand and cheer like crazy for the whole game, but it's kinda weird and unsettling to watch costumed students wander around the tailgates and stay for only the first part of the game?

I think that the football culture on campus has been lacking for so many years, but basketball has been SO strong, that there's a bit of a football identity crisis. The students will figure it out, I'm sure (we, collectively, have done that quite well in basketball). They have to figure out how to be the best 12th man. As the team on the field gets better, so with the 12th man. However, the 12th man will help the team on the field. And is it asking too much for the students to consider wearing costumes that don't cause parents to have to explain things to their young children ("I know I said you couldn't wear that to school last week") or cause some adults have to explain things to their parents (or college-age grandchildren explaining things to their parents and grandparents)? :D

Acymetric
09-21-2010, 12:35 PM
If the students actually supported the team after the "tailgate" (its not tailgating, its daydrinking, but that distinction isn't that important I guess) I wouldn't care in the slightest what they were wearing. But since they don't, I do have a problem with it. If the school is going to promote this as part of the football gameday then they should find a way to tie participation in "tailgate" with actual attendance. How? I don't know, but I'm sure there's someone drawing a salary who is responsible for figuring things like that out, I'll let them do their job on their own. The school shouldn't sponsor a tailgate event if it isn't actually enhancing the football atmosphere, and if it wants to keep this up it should stop trying to tie it to football when its clear there's basically no association between the two. I'm certainly not saying it doesn't look fun, just that if the purpose is to further gameday then it is failing.

Oh, and of course someone is going to say "hey I'm a student and I was there with my friends." Awesome, I'm glad, and I'm clearly not talking about you, keep up the good work.

jafarr1
09-21-2010, 12:53 PM
I don't care what the students wear as long as they arrive before kickoff, stay through the fourth quarter and cheer their butts off.

ChillinDuke
09-21-2010, 01:05 PM
I agree with your point that the students should support the team the whole game. Hard to do that in a 62-13 drubbing though, no matter the location, matchup, or student body. I'd like to think that the 54-48 shootout with Wake would have had a nice following until the final whistle had it been in Wally Wade.

As much as I wish it were different, I just believe the football team is going to have to motivate the students to show up. And not the other way around. It's difficult to erase a decade plus of near-irrelevance on campus. But at least we have clearly started that process.


Oh, and of course someone is going to say "hey I'm a student and I was there with my friends." Awesome, I'm glad, and I'm clearly not talking about you, keep up the good work.

Unneeded.

DevilWolf
09-21-2010, 01:08 PM
That's is an excellent reply. So good I rated it which is a first for me. Exactly what I wanted to say and said better. Just a wonderful reply.

DevilWolf might I ask you to comment on this quote from a recent Alabama article. "Students wear Halloween costumes to the games, almost as if to indicate the football games are just a big joke."

I've tried countless times and while I couldn't agree with the paper more and would go even further to point out that they look stupid and I do my best to let them know...I'd be interested to hear what you say. I've written countless post on this and always deleted them as not quite hitting the correct message.

I'm not sure if you expected me to stand on a certain side of this issue or not, or if you just wanted to hear my thoughts. Personally I don't care how the students are dressed. I just wish they were inside the stadium.

I think there are a lot of strides that could be made to get students more involved at the games though, so I'm not going to place all of the blame on apathetic student support. The relationship between the basketball team and the Crazies is interactive. The fans at football games couldn't be further removed from the action of the game. I think a lot has been done on the game-day atmosphere side to make up for the lack of fan support, but I'd rather see attention paid to enhancing fan support. Most of the ideas require stadium re-design (I'm talking to you, track), but there are other things that can be done as well.

1) Let the band play. I personally enjoy the pre-game mix because that's the kind of music I like and the players seem to use it to get focused. But after the team leaves the field from warm-ups, I don't want to hear Eminem while the team is walking through the tunnel, and I don't want to hear Lil John on third downs. Let the freaking band play.

2) Build a platform for the cheerleaders on the home side - get them closer to the fans.

3) Re-configure the student seating so they take up the lower half of two or three sections instead of taking up two entire sections. Give the students the feeling that they're surrounded by their own, I guarantee you they'd have more fun, and they'd be closer to the action where they feel more like a part of the team. And for good measure you could seat the grumpy alums at the tops of those sections to yell at the students if they tried to leave during the games. :-)

4) I know we'll never have male cheerleaders because stunts are outlawed on campus, but I'm not against the idea of yell leaders.

5) Don't fight Tailgate ... embrace it. Move it to the Quad. Hell, move it to Blue Devil Alley. Walk the team right through the middle of it during the Blue Devil Walk. Have the band play at it. When the team gets to it, have them stop for a few minutes and let Cutcliffe get up on a stage and share a few words with the students, and then have a game captain give a mini-pep talk to the Tailgate-goers.

6) Since we're all about stealing traditions, I'd love to see a 5th quarter tradition start. Win or lose, have the band lead the students out of the stadium back to the Tailgate for a very, very, very informal "concert". Obviously those parties will be a lot more fun after a win, so the students should be a little bit more invested in a win. I'm also thinking about our players leaving Yoh and seeing their fans out on the lawn drinking and dancing and celebrating a win. That sounds pretty motivational to me.

One big theme across all of these points is to CONNECT THE DUKE STUDENTS TO THE GAME ... that includes the fans, the people who just want to party, the band and the players. Make them a 12th man.

Acymetric
09-21-2010, 01:39 PM
I agree with your point that the students should support the team the whole game. Hard to do that in a 62-13 drubbing though, no matter the location, matchup, or student body. I'd like to think that the 54-48 shootout with Wake would have had a nice following until the final whistle had it been in Wally Wade.

As much as I wish it were different, I just believe the football team is going to have to motivate the students to show up. And not the other way around. It's difficult to erase a decade plus of near-irrelevance on campus. But at least we have clearly started that process.

True. But I've seen students leave early from games where Duke was up 3 and seen the same thing in games where Duke was winning handily. If students won't stay for blowouts (where Duke wins) and won't stay for close games where Duke has a shot, what kind of game will keep them in the stands? I actually thought 2nd half attendance against Alabama was as good as I've seen it.

OldPhiKap
09-21-2010, 02:26 PM
{excellent points deleted for space purposes} .

DevilWolf, those are all very constructive ideas. I hope those in the right places give them due consideration.

At some point, we have to recognize that you can only manufacture so much enthusiasm and support without the product on the field to sustain it. As pointed out above, we have a very small student population and a small local alum base. We cannot fill WW without folks buying into the buzz. Cut clearly understands that and is doing the things necessary to address it -- raise expectations, play big games at home, bring in speed, get big-time offensive players. But it will take time to build, and it will take results for major buy-in by those who can afford to buy tickets. I can wring my hands and complain that it shouldn't be so, but it is.

We have the right staff for the job, and the players coming in who can raise the level of play. It will take time to build though. There are no miracle fixes to a problem that has taken decades to fester. Cut was able to revive Ol' Miss in a much tougher conference than we play in, but he didn't start in as deep a hole as we have here.

uh_no
09-21-2010, 02:34 PM
1) Let the band play. I personally enjoy the pre-game mix because that's the kind of music I like and the players seem to use it to get focused. But after the team leaves the field from warm-ups, I don't want to hear Eminem while the team is walking through the tunnel, and I don't want to hear Lil John on third downs. Let the freaking band play.
I think the problem here is that the band isn't loud enough.....we don't have a big time band or a stadium that holds the sound very well.....saturday, with the band right behind the students, it could still barely be heard


3) Re-configure the student seating so they take up the lower half of two or three sections instead of taking up two entire sections. Give the students the feeling that they're surrounded by their own, I guarantee you they'd have more fun, and they'd be closer to the action where they feel more like a part of the team. And for good measure you could seat the grumpy alums at the tops of those sections to yell at the students if they tried to leave during the games. :-)
The students are already surrounded by eachother, so i'm not sure how this is a solution.....anyway, many casual students like to sit closer to the top anyway because it's harder to tell whats going on when you're so low to the field. furthermore, you can sell tix closer to the field for more money

4) I'm not against the idea of yell leaders.
your opinion is worth as much as mine, but I am

5) Don't fight Tailgate ... embrace it. Move it to the Quad. Hell, move it to Blue Devil Alley. Walk the team right through the middle of it during the Blue Devil Walk. Have the band play at it. When the team gets to it, have them stop for a few minutes and let Cutcliffe get up on a stage and share a few words with the students, and then have a game captain give a mini-pep talk to the Tailgate-goers.if tailgate were moved to any more prominent of a location, families would stop showing up to games for fear of what their children would be exposed to.....flying beer being the least of the worries, it would be really cool to have the team stop at tailgate, but you really can't put tailgate in a more prominent location, and the walk must go to blue devil alley....kind of a pickle


6) Since we're all about stealing traditions, I'd love to see a 5th quarter tradition start. Win or lose, have the band lead the students out of the stadium back to the Tailgate for a very, very, very informal "concert". Obviously those parties will be a lot more fun after a win, so the students should be a little bit more invested in a win. I'm also thinking about our players leaving Yoh and seeing their fans out on the lawn drinking and dancing and celebrating a win. That sounds pretty motivational to me. the students who would want to party more are likely gone by game's end....so you'd get maybe 20 people total.....plus people here aren't high on the marching band like they are at big state schools...it would happen once and then go the way of the 'alternative student tailgate'


One big theme across all of these points is to CONNECT THE DUKE STUDENTS TO THE GAME ... that includes the fans, the people who just want to party, the band and the players. Make them a 12th man.absolutely

Biscuit King
09-21-2010, 03:00 PM
The majority of Cameron Crazies don't wear costumes. Those who do wear them walk a fine line between looking clever and just looking like tools.

I'm sure the majority of students at Wallace Wade aren't wearing costumes, either. But those who are wearing costumes have gone way, way over the line described above. There really is no debate; they look like absolute tools. Just because they seem to embrace that doesn't make them clever or ironic or funny. It reflects poorly on the University and if they want to ignore this reality, that's their right.

P.S. I have nothing against debauchery and raucous pre-game parties. But I haven't heard anyone draw even a remote connection between a good party and a man in a spandex top or a baby bonnet or a garbage bag.

Devil in the Blue Dress
09-21-2010, 04:03 PM
I'm not sure if you expected me to stand on a certain side of this issue or not, or if you just wanted to hear my thoughts. Personally I don't care how the students are dressed. I just wish they were inside the stadium.

1) Let the band play. I personally enjoy the pre-game mix because that's the kind of music I like and the players seem to use it to get focused. But after the team leaves the field from warm-ups, I don't want to hear Eminem while the team is walking through the tunnel, and I don't want to hear Lil John on third downs. Let the freaking band play.

2) Build a platform for the cheerleaders on the home side - get them closer to the fans.

3) Re-configure the student seating so they take up the lower half of two or three sections instead of taking up two entire sections. Give the students the feeling that they're surrounded by their own, I guarantee you they'd have more fun, and they'd be closer to the action where they feel more like a part of the team. And for good measure you could seat the grumpy alums at the tops of those sections to yell at the students if they tried to leave during the games. :-)

4) I know we'll never have male cheerleaders because stunts are outlawed on campus, but I'm not against the idea of yell leaders.

One big theme across all of these points is to CONNECT THE DUKE STUDENTS TO THE GAME ... that includes the fans, the people who just want to party, the band and the players. Make them a 12th man.

I agree with much of what you've suggested. There was a time, back when our football team was ranked, that there was a platform for the cheerleaders and there were men cheerleaders, not for stunts, but to lead cheers.

We lost a lot of football tradition and football culture during the slide to the bottom. There's still a lot to build.

DukieInKansas
09-21-2010, 04:14 PM
The Alabama game was my first football game since I graduated oh so many years ago. I really missed someone leading cheers. I would have loved to hear "Harass them, harass them, make them relinquish the ball" from the crowd.


I missed the House P float before the game, also. But with the change in drinking age, that one won't be coming back anytime soon.

CameronBornAndBred
09-21-2010, 04:58 PM
The Alabama game was my first football game since I graduated oh so many years ago. I really missed someone leading cheers. I would have loved to hear "Harass them, harass them, make them relinquish the ball" from the crowd.


I missed the House P float before the game, also. But with the change in drinking age, that one won't be coming back anytime soon.
'Bama had male cheerleaders with big cones. What constitutes a stunt by the way? I know our cheerleaders do lots of flips and tumbles.

1605

DukieInKansas
09-21-2010, 05:26 PM
'Bama had male cheerleaders with big cones. What constitutes a stunt by the way? I know our cheerleaders do lots of flips and tumbles.



Stunts would be things like lifts and tosses and mini tramps.

uh_no
09-21-2010, 10:07 PM
Stunts would be things like lifts and tosses and mini tramps.

???? :P

devildeac
09-21-2010, 10:21 PM
'Bama had male cheerleaders with big cones. What constitutes a stunt by the way? I know our cheerleaders do lots of flips and tumbles.

1605


Stunts would be things like lifts and tosses and mini tramps.

It also includes pyramids. My daughter is a cheerleader and I have no idea either what a mini tramp is. (insert joke/reference about very small vagabond/woman of low morals here)

Devil in the Blue Dress
09-21-2010, 10:24 PM
It also includes pyramids. My daughter is a cheerleader and I have no idea either what a mini tramp is. (insert joke/reference about very small vagabond/woman of low morals here)
Mini trampolines? Stunts using mini trampolines?

devildeac
09-21-2010, 10:40 PM
Mini trampolines? Stunts using mini trampolines?

They would just help them with tumbling skills (back hand springs, somersaults, mid-air twists, etc). Stunting is thought of as building/re-assembling/re-building pyramids with tosses/dismounts as the pyramids were "dis-assembled."

Acymetric
09-21-2010, 10:47 PM
They would just help them with tumbling skills (back hand springs, somersaults, mid-air twists, etc). Stunting is thought of as building/re-assembling/re-building pyramids with tosses/dismounts as the pyramids were "dis-assembled."

Pretty much true, but stunting doesn't necessarily have to involve anything about a pyramid. Anything where someone lifts another person or tosses (throws) them it is a stunt, whether the result is a pyramid form or not.

Devil in the Blue Dress
09-21-2010, 10:49 PM
They would just help them with tumbling skills (back hand springs, somersaults, mid-air twists, etc). Stunting is thought of as building/re-assembling/re-building pyramids with tosses/dismounts as the pyramids were "dis-assembled."

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I was attempting to explain the the phrase mini tramps since it appeared to be unclear to some in this discussion. I know you know. You're a cheerleader's dad and a doctor to boot!

DukieInKansas
09-21-2010, 11:43 PM
Mini trampolines? Stunts using mini trampolines?

I believe they were banned after a Georgia Tech cheerleader broke his neck on one. I wonder how he is doing?

OldPhiKap
09-22-2010, 08:23 AM
It also includes pyramids. My daughter is a cheerleader and I have no idea either what a mini tramp is. (insert joke/reference about very small vagabond/woman of low morals here)

"There is a girl in New York City
Who calls herself the human trampoline
And sometimes when I'm falling, flying
Or tumbling in turmoil I say
Oh, so this is what she means
She means we're bouncing into Graceland"

-- Paul Simon



I think there were concerns about neck or head injuries from arial tricks. At least, that's the reason I was given years ago. I'm not sure if there was a specific incident that caused the ban.

duke98
09-22-2010, 08:29 AM
It's clear that recently the athletic department made a solid decision to increase support for the day-to-day activities (facilities, recruiting) of the football team, rather than drop the program and spread the money elsewhere as other universities of Duke's size have done. We spent money to bring Coach Cut here and hopefully even more money to keep him here when Tennessee came calling.

But the athletic department's commitment needs to go further. I'm talking specifically about the band. As a DUMB alum from the late 1990s, it makes me sad to see the current state of the band. This is no fault of DUMB's, but a natural outcome of the athletic department's years of neglecting the marching band. When I was in the band in the 1990s, they wouldn't even buy us ponchos for rainy football games, for god's sake.

Band members put in an incredible amount of practice/travel/game time and receive no stipends or scholarships. I was always told that our "payment" for the work we put in during football season was that we got to go to basketball games for free, without camping out. While that's no small reward, it doesn't hold water from a labor perspective, for starters - as Duke students, we had paid tuition/fees and could attend those games anyway.

The band has recently begun a capital campaign to raise money from alumni, and while I admire their efforts and would like to help them, I feel that this is the athletic department's responsibility. As several here have mentioned, having a good band is key to improving the football fan experience for students and non-students alike. Quite frankly, I was embarrassed on Saturday by the size of our band and by the fact that they were relegated to the additional bleacher seating, making them almost unhearable.

The band's leadership is trying admirably, but without support from the athletic department, they have a steep uphill battle. If the athletic department could just arrange for a 1/2 or 1/4 tuition waiver for band members, I think you'd see that band double in size within 5 years.

I've been attending Duke football games for 15 years and IMHO, the band's influence on those games is most notable in its (relevant) absence. I hope the athletic department will step up and put the needed resources into making DUMB a part of the football team's journey toward competitiveness.

devildeac
09-22-2010, 08:48 AM
"There is a girl in New York City
Who calls herself the human trampoline
And sometimes when I'm falling, flying
Or tumbling in turmoil I say
Oh, so this is what she means
She means we're bouncing into Graceland"

-- Paul Simon



I think there were concerns about neck or head injuries from arial tricks. At least, that's the reason I was given years ago. I'm not sure if there was a specific incident that caused the ban.

Makes sense on the ban of springboard/trampoline type devices. I have been under the impression that there was a serious head/neck/spine injury to a Duke cheerleader several decades ago, therefore the ban on stunting for the Duke squads. You still see college teams competing on espn for cheerleading championships and most, I believe, are co-ed squads.

Great song, BTW.

uh_no
09-22-2010, 09:42 AM
If the athletic department could just arrange for a 1/2 or 1/4 tuition waiver for band members, I think you'd see that band double in size within 5 years.


I hate to say 'keep dreaming,' but to suppose that band members here could get more than a couple hundred dollars is ridiculous. If the the MB started getting scholarships, why not other musical groups like the symphony and jazz band and chapel choir? Not to mention, the athletic department needs subsidies from the school to fund the sports themselves, what makes you think ANYONE in the administration would jump for the extra few hundreds of thousands of dollars to provide scholarships to the marching band? There's what, 80 people in the marching band? so 20 full scholarships would be about $1,000,000.

Marching band is a credit course, not a paid job.

mkline09
09-22-2010, 10:00 AM
It's clear that recently the athletic department made a solid decision to increase support for the day-to-day activities (facilities, recruiting) of the football team, rather than drop the program and spread the money elsewhere as other universities of Duke's size have done. We spent money to bring Coach Cut here and hopefully even more money to keep him here when Tennessee came calling.

But the athletic department's commitment needs to go further. I'm talking specifically about the band. As a DUMB alum from the late 1990s, it makes me sad to see the current state of the band. This is no fault of DUMB's, but a natural outcome of the athletic department's years of neglecting the marching band. When I was in the band in the 1990s, they wouldn't even buy us ponchos for rainy football games, for god's sake.

Band members put in an incredible amount of practice/travel/game time and receive no stipends or scholarships. I was always told that our "payment" for the work we put in during football season was that we got to go to basketball games for free, without camping out. While that's no small reward, it doesn't hold water from a labor perspective, for starters - as Duke students, we had paid tuition/fees and could attend those games anyway.

The band has recently begun a capital campaign to raise money from alumni, and while I admire their efforts and would like to help them, I feel that this is the athletic department's responsibility. As several here have mentioned, having a good band is key to improving the football fan experience for students and non-students alike. Quite frankly, I was embarrassed on Saturday by the size of our band and by the fact that they were relegated to the additional bleacher seating, making them almost unhearable.

The band's leadership is trying admirably, but without support from the athletic department, they have a steep uphill battle. If the athletic department could just arrange for a 1/2 or 1/4 tuition waiver for band members, I think you'd see that band double in size within 5 years.

I've been attending Duke football games for 15 years and IMHO, the band's influence on those games is most notable in its (relevant) absence. I hope the athletic department will step up and put the needed resources into making DUMB a part of the football team's journey toward competitiveness.

You bring up an excellent point. College Football demands a great atmosphere and that comes from students and the band. Duke's band is not in a great place right now and as it sounds from what you said they aren't supported.
Great football programs have great bands, or at least good bands. I think the band, being small in number is trying to hard to find a niche and it just is a bit sad.
Hopefully they will find the support they need and not only will the band improve but the overall atmosphere of the game as well.

Scorp4me
09-22-2010, 10:32 AM
First off DevilWolf, I didn't know what side you'd come down on, just wanted to hear your response. Lots of good ideas that went above and beyond my question.

As for answering my question I agree with Biscuit King. Your answer was much more succint than any I tried to present.

Someone mentioned the uniqueness of the tailgating and that fans love it. I suppose that is true of visiting college students. I suppose I'm viewing more the families that look in with mild disdain or herd their children closer to avoid the drunks walking back to the dorms. Admittedly they aren't heading to the game. But as you said the students are still trying to find their football identity as you put it. They deserve more time to find it. It would be nice if their costumes were a bit more clever in the mean time =)

And the cheerleaders, I've always understood that the decision to remove males from the squad and disallow stunting was a result of an injury at another school, not Duke. I think the girls do an amazing job in a configuration that spreads them out quite thin. Adding guys would certainly help. But in general it's just disappointing to see our squad not allowed to do the stunts that most other schools do (even small DII and DIII schools). Still, under the restrictions they are placed under I think they do a great job focusing on clean cheers and good tumbling.

Duke of Nashville
09-22-2010, 10:35 AM
You bring up an excellent point. College Football demands a great atmosphere and that comes from students and the band. Duke's band is not in a great place right now and as it sounds from what you said they aren't supported.
Great football programs have great bands, or at least good bands. I think the band, being small in number is trying to hard to find a niche and it just is a bit sad.
Hopefully they will find the support they need and not only will the band improve but the overall atmosphere of the game as well.

Last year the Marching Band brought in a bunch of local High Schools to help with the VT game last year. Not that the game needed any help to sell out but I am sure the HS band members parents came to support their kids playing that day. Since we have stated that we want the community involved as much as possible send out sign up sheets to the local highschools for volunteers. Get them to sign a waver, give em a blue t-shirt, hotdog, and a coke and sign off on some community service. They don't have to march on the field or anything but join the band in the section, play a few songs, and have a good time.

In return the high school with the greatest attendence gets the MB to come out to play for one of their HS football games.

killerleft
09-22-2010, 10:47 AM
Last year the Marching Band brought in a bunch of local High Schools to help with the VT game last year. Not that the game needed any help to sell out but I am sure the HS band members parents came to support their kids playing that day. Since we have stated that we want the community involved as much as possible send out sign up sheets to the local highschools for volunteers. Get them to sign a waver, give em a blue t-shirt, hotdog, and a coke and sign off on some community service. They don't have to march on the field or anything but join the band in the section, play a few songs, and have a good time.

In return the high school with the greatest attendence gets the MB to come out to play for one of their HS football games.

Sounds like a plan, D of N! The idea could be tweaked a bit if needed, and I would think that some local bands would jump at the chance.

Duke's band is very good but lacks decibels because of its size. Beef it up!

Devil in the Blue Dress
09-22-2010, 10:55 AM
Last year the Marching Band brought in a bunch of local High Schools to help with the VT game last year. Not that the game needed any help to sell out but I am sure the HS band members parents came to support their kids playing that day. Since we have stated that we want the community involved as much as possible send out sign up sheets to the local highschools for volunteers. Get them to sign a waver, give em a blue t-shirt, hotdog, and a coke and sign off on some community service. They don't have to march on the field or anything but join the band in the section, play a few songs, and have a good time.

In return the high school with the greatest attendence gets the MB to come out to play for one of their HS football games.

Band Day has been a feature of each football schedule for many years. As the football program declined, so did the number of bands participating. The make up of the bands also changed from predominantly high school bands to more and more middle school bands.

Of course, attendance at events like Band Day has a cost to the bands in terms of time and money. The time to prepare and stage this event is far more than one might guess. I suspect that once a year is as often as most bands would be able to consider appearing.

DukeUsul
09-22-2010, 10:56 AM
I hate to say 'keep dreaming,' but to suppose that band members here could get more than a couple hundred dollars is ridiculous.
Right now they're not even getting that. So far they've only been able to get a couple hundred bucks for some tuba players. Even getting each kid a few hundred bucks stipend (a la Vanderbilt's band) would be a huge step up.


If the the MB started getting scholarships, why not other musical groups like the symphony and jazz band and chapel choir?
Not sure how this is relevant. The marching band is completely unaffiliated with the music department and other ensembles. It has a completely different purpose, in supporting a revenue generating aspect of the university.


Not to mention, the athletic department needs subsidies from the school to fund the sports themselves, what makes you think ANYONE in the administration would jump for the extra few hundreds of thousands of dollars to provide scholarships to the marching band? There's what, 80 people in the marching band? so 20 full scholarships would be about $1,000,000.
I don't think a quarter scholarship for every member is realistic. But stipends for everyone and a few partial scholarships to attract some talented musicians who might get scholarships to bands at state schools would be a big help. The campaign that the director has started is a good first step, but more should be done to attract donors.


Marching band is a credit course, not a paid job.
Barely the first. A quarter credit for 5+ hrs of practice every week all fall and six home games (about a 6-8 hr day starting with early morning practice the day of the game) and one to two away games.

DukeUsul
09-22-2010, 11:00 AM
There were three young men who joined the cheerleading squad in 1998 or 1999 and led cheers, but the policies on stunts prevented them from doing much else. The practice didn't continue.

Duke of Nashville
09-22-2010, 11:02 AM
Band Day has been a feature of each football schedule for many years. As the football program declined, so did the number of bands participating. The make up of the bands also changed from predominantly high school bands to more and more middle school bands.

Of course, attendance at events like Band Day has a cost to the bands in terms of time and money. The time to prepare and stage this event is far more than one might guess. I suspect that once a year is as often as most bands would be able to consider appearing.

I figured it was a type of event that you described. But, if we tried to single out high schools in the community and just ask for volunteers? Would this really have a cost besides the t-shirt, hotdog, a coke, and maybe some additional insurance? If it is just volunteer thing transportation would not be involved most of the expenses won't exist to the school, liability would not be factor if they have a waiver from their parents to participate. It couldn't hurt recruiting in the local community either for the band or the football team. I may be missing the bus on the whole subject, but it was just an idea.

Devil in the Blue Dress
09-22-2010, 11:14 AM
I figured it was a type of event that you described. But, if we tried to single out high schools in the community and just ask for volunteers? Would this really have a cost besides the t-shirt, hotdog, a coke, and maybe some additional insurance? If it is just volunteer thing transportation would not be involved most of the expenses won't exist to the school, liability would not be factor if they have a waiver from their parents to participate. It couldn't hurt recruiting in the local community either for the band or the football team. I may be missing the bus on the whole subject, but it was just an idea.
I agree with the idea of reaching out to and inviting school bands to participate, but I also know there is a lot more to getting them to Duke to perform than has been mentioned thus far.

High bands face a variety of constraints, always tough, but more so in a slow economy. Budgets limit money available for traveling. For a variety of reasons using private cars is generally not done for such school sponsored events. Aside from liability issues related to transporting students by private car, there is the matter of transporting their instruments and other equipment. These bands are using their practice time week in and week out for the programs they are presenting at their own schools.

As for middle school bands, there is some debate as to the appropriateness of marching band for that age group. I'm mentioning this as an FYI, not as a subject for debate.

devil84
09-22-2010, 01:29 PM
High bands face a variety of constraints, always tough, but more so in a slow economy. Budgets limit money available for traveling. For a variety of reasons using private cars is generally not done for such school sponsored events. Aside from liability issues related to transporting students by private car, there is the matter of transporting their instruments and other equipment. These bands are using their practice time week in and week out for the programs they are presenting at their own schools.

As a former president of a Wake County (Raleigh) high school's band boosters, I can say for certain that there is no money or time to give to a program like this. Most of the high school bands have competitions on Saturdays, and there are only one or two open weekends from the beginning of school until the beginning of November. Nope, not going to give up another weekend for that, particularly since most of the band are not Duke fans (we wouldn't do State or UNC, either, for the same reason -- and some of our band instructors also instruct State's marching).

Also, for our 130 piece band, using activity buses owned by the school and gas and drivers paid for by the band, it takes around $500 to move the band within the Triangle. It's wear and tear on our truck, trailers, large instruments (tubas and percussion), and band parents. We'd need to provide a meal for the kids (per our own policies). It's a LOT of work for little reward, since most students would be playing to help a rival's team (again, this would be true if UNC and State had the same event!).

Besides, most local bands are bigger than DUMB (this is sad). If there were something that the high school bands could learn from DUMB, that would be great, but DUMB isn't a model for marching bands (AND IT COULD BE, if it had the resources!).

What might be better is if DUMB were to host a high school band competition, collecting the profits from the gate, concessions, and souvenirs. However, it might not be possible due to NCAA recruiting issues. Don't laugh -- there could be athletes of other sports in the band. My son was recruited by Wake Forest for marching band, and we had to be mindful of all athletic recruiting rules.

If not a competition, what about a summer marching clinic -- sports programs could put on camps, why not band? There is a lot of interest for something like that.

Yes, Duke does need a better band. They're making the best of what they have, but they need more to work with. Stipends help. Providing complete uniforms would be good, too (do the students still have to provide shoes and pants?). Having shakos or other respectable marching band head gear would give it more credibility than baseball caps. None of this should have to be purchased by the student.

Why do we need a better band? It's part of the pageantry of game day. A band really adds to the pre-game, half time, and even post-game festivities. Good programs have good bands: have you ever watched a bowl parade and seen a band that wasn't impressive?

Yes, as Duke's football program gets better, the band will follow. But the band could be better now. (Please note, DUMB members: YOU ARE AWESOME! You just need more resources and more members!!)

DukeUsul
09-22-2010, 01:33 PM
As a former president of a Wake County (Raleigh) high school's band boosters, I can say for certain that there is no money or time to give to a program like this. Most of the high school bands have competitions on Saturdays, and there are only one or two open weekends from the beginning of school until the beginning of November. Nope, not going to give up another weekend for that, particularly since most of the band are not Duke fans (we wouldn't do State or UNC, either, for the same reason -- and some of our band instructors also instruct State's marching).

Also, for our 130 piece band, using activity buses owned by the school and gas and drivers paid for by the band, it takes around $500 to move the band within the Triangle. It's wear and tear on our truck, trailers, large instruments (tubas and percussion), and band parents. We'd need to provide a meal for the kids (per our own policies). It's a LOT of work for little reward, since most students would be playing to help a rival's team (again, this would be true if UNC and State had the same event!).

Besides, most local bands are bigger than DUMB (this is sad). If there were something that the high school bands could learn from DUMB, that would be great, but DUMB isn't a model for marching bands (AND IT COULD BE, if it had the resources!).

What might be better is if DUMB were to host a high school band competition, collecting the profits from the gate, concessions, and souvenirs. However, it might not be possible due to NCAA recruiting issues. Don't laugh -- there could be athletes of other sports in the band. My son was recruited by Wake Forest for marching band, and we had to be mindful of all athletic recruiting rules.

If not a competition, what about a summer marching clinic -- sports programs could put on camps, why not band? There is a lot of interest for something like that.

Yes, Duke does need a better band. They're making the best of what they have, but they need more to work with. Stipends help. Providing complete uniforms would be good, too (do the students still have to provide shoes and pants?). Having shakos or other respectable marching band head gear would give it more credibility than baseball caps. None of this should have to be purchased by the student.

Why do we need a better band? It's part of the pageantry of game day. A band really adds to the pre-game, half time, and even post-game festivities. Good programs have good bands: have you ever watched a bowl parade and seen a band that wasn't impressive?

Yes, as Duke's football program gets better, the band will follow. But the band could be better now. (Please note, DUMB members: YOU ARE AWESOME! You just need more resources and more members!!)

Brand new uniforms were purchased by the athletic department for the beginning of the 1999 season, including pants. Band members need only bring all-black shoes to march in.

uh_no
09-22-2010, 01:34 PM
Not sure how this is relevant. The marching band is completely unaffiliated with the music department and other ensembles.

the credit the music department gives says different....and getting into basketball games with 0 waiting is worth the difference in value between the credit given and the time spent practicing for football season (not to mention band members get FREE opportunities to go to the acc and ncaa tournaments

i spent a month in a tent to get into the unc game......band members walked into cameron 1.5 hours before tip.....that alone is worth the comparably minimal time dedicated to dumb during the football season....then they get credit.....

that said, if the money was there, we could pay them.....but i don't think the money is....

DukeUsul
09-22-2010, 01:44 PM
the credit the music department gives says different....
I don't know what you mean by this.

and getting into basketball games with 0 waiting is worth the difference in value between the credit given and the time spent practicing for football season (not to mention band members get FREE opportunities to go to the acc and ncaa tournaments

i spent a month in a tent to get into the unc game......band members walked into cameron 1.5 hours before tip.....that alone is worth the comparably minimal time dedicated to dumb during the football season....then they get credit.....

that said, if the money was there, we could pay them.....but i don't think the money is....
For some those benefits are worth it, yes. For me, just being in the marching band was enough, as it was something I always enjoyed. But to recruit top talent to make the band better, you have to compete against other schools who offer stipends and scholarships to attract band members who actually like marching band and like being good at it. Believe it or not, there are a bunch of people out there who like marching in a band and don't give a whit about basketball.

DUMB was bigger before 2000 and back in my first few years (95-96) there were people who just went along doing the bare minimum. Who cares if they could barely play an instrument or knew to go left foot first. They got into basketball games easy. By the time I and my class were in charge there was a push to increase the level of skill and dedication in the band by being more strict about the quality of musicians (i.e. no holding a trumpet but never playing) and people who actually tried to do well marching. By the time I graduated we had actually improved the quality of the band/marching at the expense of size/volume. I don't know all that happened after I left, but the band continued to get smaller.

The last few years they've had a hard time getting tubas. Last year the offered a stipend and suddenly had three. Clearly getting into Cameron easy wasn't worth it for those three people. People have different priorities.

johnb
09-22-2010, 01:54 PM
Duke would like to encourage its students to do a lot of things well, so I'm not sure we can really expect a large percentage of the student body to be both a football fan and the sort of football fan who wants to stick around for the 4th quarter of a blow out. To be fair, we should also expect the football players to cheer on the math contestants at the Putnam and the women's field hockey team.

For more on this subject, here is Austin Rivers on why he kept us, Carolina, and Kansas and dropped Florida from his list:

"The three schools on my list are the most prime time you can get," Rivers said. "Basketball is a huge tradition, and they're on ESPN all the time."

To get crowds from the school and the region, the team needs to win. Tramps and the band will follow.

Merlindevildog91
09-22-2010, 01:55 PM
It seems that this thread has drifted far from its original mooring. Saying that, I would nonetheless comment that an enhanced band would make the gameday experience better, and there are Duke students who are very excited about marching band, whether or not they get end zone seats at the basketball games. It would not hurt to give them a stipend, even if it is a small one, to encourage more student participation in the marching band. The hours dedicated band members would put in would preclude them from working part-time jobs or having any other way to pick up a little spending money.

But back to the original topic. Would we be satisfied with a basketball team that is middle-of-the-pack in the ACC? Is it unrealistic to think we should want our football team to be successful on a regular basis in the ACC?

I confess over the last years I have thought that we should settle for the occasional bowl trip, but now I believe that Duke should be competitive with anyone, from Alabama on down. A successful college football program cannot arise overnight and continue to contend, but we should strive for continual improvement.

uh_no
09-22-2010, 02:13 PM
But to recruit top talent to make the band better, you have to compete against other schools who offer stipends and scholarships to attract band members who actually like marching band and like being good at it.

By the time I graduated we had actually improved the quality of the band/marching at the expense of size/volume. I don't know all that happened after I left, but the band continued to get smaller.


It seems that if you offered a stipend, you would have more goons doing it just for the cash whether they could play or not I know as a mediocre sax player, I would be more inclined to do marching band just for the money....not being super concerned about quality.

It seems that for a school like ours, unless we can actually convince people to come to duke FOR the marching band (which is very difficult in its current state) you have to make a choice between size and quality.

It comes to a catch-22, the band isn't good because it can't attract the talent, yet the talent doesn't do marching band (in general) because the band isn't good. Lemme be the first to say, that i know several of the musicians and they are all great musicians, and I personally think the size, at any quality, is of utmost importance.

The problem I see is that we have a small school with tons of opportunities available to students. As more and more opportunities become available, you see less interest in each individual activity.

uh_no
09-22-2010, 02:16 PM
The hours dedicated band members would put in would preclude them from working part-time jobs or having any other way to pick up a little spending money.


Thats true of any activity a student may choose to participate in. In my freshman year, I spent upwards of 30 hours a week practicing for crew. The hours i dedicated precluded me from having a job. Should I have been paid? If the marching band were to get stipends, it would be because such a band would increase the football team's ability to sell tickets, and thus get recruits and make more money, not because of a sob story that the students dedicate time without getting paid....because every student does that for some cause.

OldPhiKap
09-22-2010, 02:52 PM
I confess over the last years I have thought that we should settle for the occasional bowl trip, but now I believe that Duke should be competitive with anyone, from Alabama on down. A successful college football program cannot arise overnight and continue to contend, but we should strive for continual improvement.

We should strive to be competitive in the battle for the Division Title. Everything else flows from that. If we pull that off, we get a shot at the conference championship. If we are competitive for the division title, but fall a bit short, we will still be worthy of a decent bowl.

I would like to say that we should be competitive with the Alabama's and Tejas' of the world, and I hope we are. But realistically, we need to focus on winning our half of the conference first.

Merlindevildog91
09-22-2010, 03:18 PM
We should strive to be competitive in the battle for the Division Title. Everything else flows from that. If we pull that off, we get a shot at the conference championship. If we are competitive for the division title, but fall a bit short, we will still be worthy of a decent bowl.

I would like to say that we should be competitive with the Alabama's and Tejas' of the world, and I hope we are. But realistically, we need to focus on winning our half of the conference first.

Agreed. I probably should have said we should "eventually" be competitive with anyone.

Certainly as currently configured, our half of the ACC is the stronger half. Even in this down year....

uh_no
09-22-2010, 04:00 PM
We should strive to be competitive in the battle for the Division Title. Everything else flows from that. If we pull that off, we get a shot at the conference championship. If we are competitive for the division title, but fall a bit short, we will still be worthy of a decent bowl.

I would like to say that we should be competitive with the Alabama's and Tejas' of the world, and I hope we are. But realistically, we need to focus on winning our half of the conference first.

No doubt. It's when that happens that we get the attendance and the justification for the improvements to wally wade (which looked PHENOMENAL for anyone who saw the plans last year)

Bob Green
09-23-2010, 03:20 PM
Here is another excellent article from Al Featherston:

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=204999444

with talented young players on the team we should aspire to win championships. Freshmen Connette and Snead complement sophomores Renfree and Scott.

PumpkinFunk
09-23-2010, 03:41 PM
I say everything in this in a totally unofficial capacity as a current DUMB member. One thing I saw but didn't quote: We don't play because the athletic department doesn't let us a lot of the time. Most of the timeouts are so full of advertisements that we get maybe 30 seconds of playing time. In-between downs, we do try to play, but there are a number of factors that make it harder for us, including plain communication difficulties (our drum majors are terrible at passing the word back on songs to play) and the fact that Jeff (Jeff Au, the director) wants to make sure we can all play halftime and sound good. We try to play as much as possible, but there are a lot of limiting factors that go into it. It seems that the powers that be love the canned music at each down more than they like us playing. It is what it is, at least right now.


But the athletic department's commitment needs to go further. I'm talking specifically about the band. As a DUMB alum from the late 1990s, it makes me sad to see the current state of the band. This is no fault of DUMB's, but a natural outcome of the athletic department's years of neglecting the marching band. When I was in the band in the 1990s, they wouldn't even buy us ponchos for rainy football games, for god's sake.

Band members put in an incredible amount of practice/travel/game time and receive no stipends or scholarships. I was always told that our "payment" for the work we put in during football season was that we got to go to basketball games for free, without camping out. While that's no small reward, it doesn't hold water from a labor perspective, for starters - as Duke students, we had paid tuition/fees and could attend those games anyway.

The band has recently begun a capital campaign to raise money from alumni, and while I admire their efforts and would like to help them, I feel that this is the athletic department's responsibility. As several here have mentioned, having a good band is key to improving the football fan experience for students and non-students alike. Quite frankly, I was embarrassed on Saturday by the size of our band and by the fact that they were relegated to the additional bleacher seating, making them almost unhearable.

The band's leadership is trying admirably, but without support from the athletic department, they have a steep uphill battle. If the athletic department could just arrange for a 1/2 or 1/4 tuition waiver for band members, I think you'd see that band double in size within 5 years.

As some people have addressed - there are now some small stipends ($500 to tubas, $300 for other brass players) for band members. It's not a lot, but it's definitely an incentive.


Marching band is a credit course, not a paid job.

Just as an FYI: It's a half-credit class that is pass/fail and only counts towards the required credits needed in Trinity.


You bring up an excellent point. College Football demands a great atmosphere and that comes from students and the band. Duke's band is not in a great place right now and as it sounds from what you said they aren't supported.
Great football programs have great bands, or at least good bands. I think the band, being small in number is trying to hard to find a niche and it just is a bit sad.
Hopefully they will find the support they need and not only will the band improve but the overall atmosphere of the game as well.

It is beginning to come. It seems to be a high priority on Coach Cut's list to help improve the band, but the number of difficulties we face is pretty large - lack of support from athletics (monetary or otherwise - we can't even get an overnight trip this year and instead are doing the 10+ hours to and from Navy in one day, increased rehearsal time is tough with academic schedules, etc, etc). Compared to my freshman year, we are way better than we were. It takes time.


The campaign that the director has started is a good first step, but more should be done to attract donors.

Without the support of the Athletics Department or Annual Fund in getting money specifically for DUMB, we can't do that. Right now, it's mostly just a check-box on the Athletics donations.


the credit the music department gives says different....and getting into basketball games with 0 waiting is worth the difference in value between the credit given and the time spent practicing for football season (not to mention band members get FREE opportunities to go to the acc and ncaa tournaments

i spent a month in a tent to get into the unc game......band members walked into cameron 1.5 hours before tip.....that alone is worth the comparably minimal time dedicated to dumb during the football season....then they get credit.....

Minimal time? While I understand most students believe it's a small amount of time and effort, it isn't. Being a member of DUMB who is allowed into the Carolina game (which not all are - there are ways to get blocked from being allowed in) consists of several days of band camp during orientation week, 2 rehearsals a week, almost 8 hours a day on home football game days, 2 away games (or the game over Thanksgiving weekend), if not more, multiple non-revenue sporting events, at least half of the women's basketball games, and random events which the athletics department "requests" our attendance at. It may seem like not much compared to tenting, but it's a lot.


It seems that if you offered a stipend, you would have more goons doing it just for the cash whether they could play or not I know as a mediocre sax player, I would be more inclined to do marching band just for the money....not being super concerned about quality.

It seems that for a school like ours, unless we can actually convince people to come to duke FOR the marching band (which is very difficult in its current state) you have to make a choice between size and quality.

It comes to a catch-22, the band isn't good because it can't attract the talent, yet the talent doesn't do marching band (in general) because the band isn't good. Lemme be the first to say, that i know several of the musicians and they are all great musicians, and I personally think the size, at any quality, is of utmost importance.

The sound and the talent are the most important things, I would say. We may be small when we're at football games, but take the 29-person pep bands for the men's basketball tournaments, and we can give it a go with the best. 200 people in a band that sounds awful is a lot worse than 100 in a band that sounds good, fundamentally.

EDIT:

I'd say that we are doing the best that we can with the resources that we have. We have gotten increased cooperation from admissions to help us recruit more heavily (paying off with almost 60 freshmen this year) and from athletics for the stipends. We rehearse like hell during the limited time that we have and get a solid product on the field. We sound far better than we did years ago. We have a band camp now which means that we have a show ready for the first game, unlike in the times before Jeff (or so he and some of the people who were seniors my freshman year have told us). We are growing and improving in terms of quality of sound. Our leadership is great - enthusiastic and they all really care about making the band look and sound as good as it can be. On a very fundamental level, though, we have issues to fight that we can't. More than 4 hours of rehearsals a week would be tough to get right now with how busy our academics are. The money is tight. The music department and DUMB have a contentious relationships, and the Athletic Department, while trying to help us, has other priorities.

Again: This is totally unofficial, just my $0.02 from a current band member. I'm not the President, I'm not the director. Just a band member who happens to read this forum and saw a lot of you talking about things and some of you not totally understanding what's really going on, since I'd say most of you haven't been in the band recently.

gep
09-24-2010, 12:59 AM
While the OP is on realistic Duke football aspirations, I'm going to comment on DUMB. One of the criticisms is that DUMB (being small) is not loud enough. I'm far from being an expert on these things, but what about a dedicated sound system for DUMB... doesn't have to be rock-concert loud or "big", but sufficient to project the sound throughout the stadium...

Acymetric
09-24-2010, 02:55 AM
While the OP is on realistic Duke football aspirations, I'm going to comment on DUMB. One of the criticisms is that DUMB (being small) is not loud enough. I'm far from being an expert on these things, but what about a dedicated sound system for DUMB... doesn't have to be rock-concert loud or "big", but sufficient to project the sound throughout the stadium...

Speaking as a sound engineer, who is paying for the engineers to mic all that? We don't work for free, and setting up a sound system to broadcast a marching band through speakers live would be far from easy if you don't want it to sound awful, and it definitely wouldn't be free.

uh_no
09-24-2010, 08:40 AM
Just chiming in and changing the subject a small bit:

i was part of a small group which got to hear cut speak last night, and one of the things I got out of it was the state of our construction, these things might surprise you

120 yd indoor practice facility: now fully funded by football donors, to be build starting this winter-next fall. It will be open to all students for im/club/whatever practices when the football team isn't practicing, it will be next to the outdoor practice facility

stadium renovations: remove the track, lower the field.....cut wants to make prominent use of the duke blue stone in the concourse....estimated time to completion: 5-6 years (wow!)

new track facility: to be build somewhere up near the soccer stadium, somewhat mirrors the facility that white built at ND. Apparently some of the decisions that went into this were the fact that its not fair that the track team has to share the track with the football team, and other various events like graduation, and its hard for the football team to share the stadium with the public and all the people who use the track....

basset drive will be much shortened and that whole area will become one huge athletics complex


state of the program: still trying to increase student support....one of the new ideas is incorporating a friday night tailgate/party for students on west....to bring about a gameday weekend atmostphere......with the hope being that students will do their partying then, and might be ABLE to attend the games.....its yet to be seen how the rest of the year will turn out, but we've had 2/2 sellouts (with tons of students) and tbh, we were severely hampered by rain at 2 or 3 of the home games last year...cut has been hitting the freshman hard each year to get them into it....going to orientation events to get them excited before the season starts......the program is run like a top notch D1 program, because that's where we want it to be, and it has never been run that way before


imho: i'm one of the few last students who recalls the ted roof era, and one of even precious fewer who attended a ted roof game (of students) and the amount of progress we've made is just astounding. The one thing that sticks out in my mind is losses. Freshman year, a loss was a loss....w/e....then i distinctly remember losing to northwestern at home sophomore year and going back to my room and just being ticked that we lost....i suddenly cared.....

coach cut has been amazing with this program and deserves all the student support in the world.....even if you can't convince me to stay for a 50 point blowout ;)

OldPhiKap
09-24-2010, 09:20 AM
the program is run like a top notch D1 program, because that's where we want it to be, and it has never been run that way before

As they say in my church, "Bingo!" Everything else flows from this, and it is great that the administration appears to be fully behind the effort and is willing to fund it.

uh_no
09-24-2010, 09:22 AM
As they say in my church, "Bingo!" Everything else flows from this, and it is great that the administration appears to be fully behind the effort and is willing to fund it.

as I mentioned, its my understanding that almost everything the football program is doing is funded by 'football money' read: from funds raised private donors.....yeah the money had to be increased for the coaching staff, but pretty much after that all they needed to do was let cut run wild

Bob Green
09-24-2010, 10:18 AM
stadium renovations: remove the track, lower the field.....cut wants to make prominent use of the duke blue stone in the concourse....estimated time to completion: 5-6 years (wow!)

Was there any discussion on where home football games would be played while Wallace Wade Stadium is being renovated?

uh_no
09-24-2010, 10:28 AM
Was there any discussion on where home football games would be played while Wallace Wade Stadium is being renovated?

no, it didn't come up.....but my guess would be that they would do the work in between seasons....much like they're doing at MSG currently....lowering the field could be done one year, and the work on the concourse another

Bob Green
09-24-2010, 11:16 AM
no, it didn't come up.....but my guess would be that they would do the work in between seasons....much like they're doing at MSG currently....lowering the field could be done one year, and the work on the concourse another

Thanks for the quick answer.