Mason and Miles: the 4 and 5 or 5 and 4?

[flyingdutchdevil]

I know that Coach K doesn't label positions. I know that in a lot of Duke teams, it doesn't really matter who is the 4 or who is the 5 and they both often have very similar roles. I know that the 4 and 5 on Coach K's teams can be very similar or very different from one another. On defense, however, knowing who's the 4 and who's the 5 is pretty important. It's the difference between guarding Tracy Smith and CJ Leslie (a 40 pound difference between them).

If Duke plays Mason and Miles together, who is the 4? Who is the 5? I've always thought of Mason as the 4 and Miles as the 5, and many of DBR seem to agree. However, I've seen countless articles this summer that place Miles as the 4 and Mason by the 5.

Can someone please shed some light into this? Thanks in advance

[uh_no]

I know that Coach K doesn't label positions. I know that in a lot of Duke teams, it doesn't really matter who is the 4 or who is the 5 and they both often have very similar roles. I know that the 4 and 5 on Coach K's teams can be very similar or very different from one another. On defense, however, knowing who's the 4 and who's the 5 is pretty important. It's the difference between guarding Tracy Smith and CJ Leslie (a 40 pound difference between them).

If Duke plays Mason and Miles together, who is the 4? Who is the 5? I've always thought of Mason as the 4 and Miles as the 5, and many of DBR seem to agree. However, I've seen countless articles this summer that place Miles as the 4 and Mason by the 5.

Can someone please shed some light into this? Thanks in advance

They'll split the difference and each play the 4 1/2

[gumbomoop]

Mason seems to have a better handle, he's more likely to shoot 3s than is Miles, and he's a better high post passer. Miles is stronger, a better position rebounder, is more comfortable with back to basket.

So in most circumstances when they're on the floor at the same time, Mason seems logically the 4, Miles the 5. But they're interchangeable just enough that at times Miles would be on a wing passing into Mason in the post.

One could ask a similar "Who's 4/5?" when Mason and Ryan are together. In that case, based on last season, I'd have said Ryan's the 4, Mason the 5. But reports of Ryan's new bulk incline me to guess that these 2 are even more interchangeable.

[hq2]

With Ryan's new size and bulk, looks like a three man rotation to me. I'd say on offense,
K will install a double low post set for a lot of the action, using three interchangeable cutters and shooters, with the Plumlees and Ryan being used interchangeably. That would give them a fair amount of offensive continuity. On defense, it would probably be the usual man to man. However, with this group, I could see K using a 2-3 zone on occasion when he felt the team needed a breather (which won't be often with this group!)

[CLT Devil]

I think the will play plenty together, and IMO Mason will guard the opposing teams center. I think he is slightly longer and hopefully doesn't pick up as many silly fouls as in the past. Both seem to be pretty strong as this point so getting muscled out isn't too much of a concern. I know everyone has to have an assignment on D, so even if you don't label then in positions they will still have to pick up the opposing teams' tallest player. I think Mason has the tools to best do this, though both are very capable.

On offense, same thing. Miles is very good at coming in and crashing down an offensive board from a few feet out. Miles also has that 10 ft. jumper he can consistantly hit to keep the D honest. Mason might have a slightly better back-to-the-basket game too, but if he can hit that little jumper that Miles hit last year on a regular basis I think it is a wash.

Here's another question on the Plumlees; If they do both start the game, who jumps at the opening tip? Both have ups, Miles can jump over a person, but Mason is touted as the better leaper, at least he was. I say Miles, if nothing else because he has the Power Beard.

A lot has changed from last year and the Brothers Plumlee will no doubt get to showcase their skills more than last year, as well as continue to work on what time they put in on their game during the summer.

I think it is a fair question to ask about Ryan Kelly and where he will be. He is now officially the tallest person on the team and has a good overall polished game. I would like to think he can create matchup problems while at the 4, such as Gason does with the Lakers while Bynum is in (obviously he is nowhere as good as Gasol, just an example). If the Plumlee Bros are both off the court I can see RK being the sub at center, mainly due to his size. He is not going to float the perimeter while Singler is in to fill that role, but eventually I can see him in that role if his offensive game continues to improve. I saw RK at the Elon football game and talked to him...he has really bulked up and said he feels a lot more confident in his body.

[1999ballboy]

Miles was exclusively a 5 last year, while Mason would play the 4 when he was in with either Miles or Zoubs. I say switch 'em. Towards the end of last year, Miles demonstrated a pretty nice mid-range jumper, while Mason's shot never really clicked. On the flip side, Mason is more coordinated, and I use that word rather than "athletic" because I think they're pretty even in terms of strength and hops, but Mason's footwork is better and I think he'd be more adept at guarding and blocking out opposing big men- that is, if he can avoid fouling.

It's true that Mason is the better passer of the two, but I think he could use those skills as a 5 like Brian Zoubek, who was an outstanding passer, did.

[Devilsfan]

With Ryan's fore mentioned newly aquired size and bulk I hope he will want to bang with the very strong inside bigs that are so prevailent in D-1 basketball.

[sagegrouse]

The vaunted mathematician down 15-501 came up with these terms to designate the basketball positions. As the OP noted, K never enrolled in D. Smith's math class.

So, what are we talking about? Surely not offense, since both Plumlees can play essentially the same role on alternate plays or often at the same time.

I suppose we are talking about who gets to guard the "big guy in the middle." Well, if he's a banger without an outside game, I would say Miles would guard him. Miles appears to be tougher to back in on than the others. If it's a Greg-Monroe type, who plays all over the court, it will probably be someone like Mason or Ryan.

In ACC play it seems to me that a lot of the size graduated or left -- Davis and the Wares at UNC; Favors, Lawal and Peacock at GT; McFarland and Weaver at Wake; Booker at Clemson; Alabi at FSU, etc.

And, to make the issue even less critical, please recognize that fouls will play a big role in determining the rotation and assignments in any game. Miles, Mason, Ryan, Josh, and Kyle will all get their minutes against opposing bigs.

sagegrouse

[greybeard]

The vaunted mathematician down 15-501 came up with these terms to designate the basketball positions. As the OP noted, K never enrolled in D. Smith's math class.

So, what are we talking about? Surely not offense, since both Plumlees can play essentially the same role on alternate plays or often at the same time.

I suppose we are talking about who gets to guard the "big guy in the middle." Well, if he's a banger without an outside game, I would say Miles would guard him. Miles appears to be tougher to back in on than the others. If it's a Greg-Monroe type, who plays all over the court, it will probably be someone like Mason or Ryan.

In ACC play it seems to me that a lot of the size graduated or left -- Davis and the Wares at UNC; Favors, Lawal and Peacock at GT; McFarland and Weaver at Wake; Booker at Clemson; Alabi at FSU, etc.

And, to make the issue even less critical, please recognize that fouls will play a big role in determining the rotation and assignments in any game. Miles, Mason, Ryan, Josh, and Kyle will all get their minutes against opposing bigs.

sagegrouse

I think that Mason is the better inside player, that he is more adroit shifting his weight and body angles in close. Miles seems to have trouble with that aspect of play and the same thing that gives him trouble with that caused him to take jump hook shots from poor positions.

On the other hand, I like the way he catches it away from the basket and can play upright, shoot, pass, or take a bounce or two.

On the other hand, Sage has it right, fouls will determine an awful lot.

Ryan can play near the basket or away but when he plays near the basket he needs it early and on the move. He needs to be allowed to call the play as it were and make athletic catches that allow him to spin, dodge away from unsettled defenders.

Yes, he can post up but I do not think that his body will hold up if he is deployed regularly in that capacity. I think that he is a likely candidate for injury if K asks that of him. I would not do it.

[airowe]

Ryan can play near the basket or away but when he plays near the basket he needs it early and on the move. He needs to be allowed to call the play as it were and make athletic catches that allow him to spin, dodge away from unsettled defenders.

Yes, he can post up but I do not think that his body will hold up if he is deployed regularly in that capacity. I think that he is a likely candidate for injury if K asks that of him. I would not do it.

Do you feel the same about Mason/Miles' bodies not being able to hold up? Ryan has worked incredibly hard over the offseason and has added about 25-30 lbs of muscle. He's a pinch taller than Miles and weighs just about the same. I think both of their bodies, if any on our team, our best suited for posting up but it's certainly not a strength of ours. None of the 3 previously mentioned really have much of a back to the basket game to speak of and Josh is much more natural shooting a turnaround 8 footer than he is posting up on the low block.

Luckily, we have a starting point guard and shooting guard who are comfortable pushing the ball up the court, an athletic outside-in swingman, and those bigs are fast, athletic, and very good finishers on the run. We're much more likely to see an early in the shot clock 3 or a drive and dish by one of our guards than we are an isolation clear out for Miles, Mason, or Ryan.

I doubt we'll be in the halfcourt set enough to wear down any of our post players' upper bodies. Hopefully, their legs can keep up with all the running.

[greybeard]

Do you feel the same about Mason/Miles' bodies not being able to hold up? Ryan has worked incredibly hard over the offseason and has added about 25-30 lbs of muscle. He's a pinch taller than Miles and weighs just about the same. I think both of their bodies, if any on our team, our best suited for posting up but it's certainly not a strength of ours. None of the 3 previously mentioned really have much of a back to the basket game to speak of and Josh is much more natural shooting a turnaround 8 footer than he is posting up on the low block.

Luckily, we have a starting point guard and shooting guard who are comfortable pushing the ball up the court, an athletic outside-in swingman, and those bigs are fast, athletic, and very good finishers on the run. We're much more likely to see an early in the shot clock 3 or a drive and dish by one of our guards than we are an isolation clear out for Miles, Mason, or Ryan.

I doubt we'll be in the halfcourt set enough to wear down any of our post players' upper bodies. Hopefully, their legs can keep up with all the running.

No, I do not think the same about Miles and Mason. I think it about Ryan.

Putting on muscle mass does nothing to protect against injury. I'd love to hear someone make the case for the other view, particularly, as here, when it is done quickly. How one uses one's body is the best protection against injury and Ryan finds himself in a new one. This is just a guess, that is all, but I should think that he, Duke, would be better playing to his strengths than playing as if he were strong and therefore could bang away after receiving the ball with a defender plastered to him.

As I said, I do not think that Miles' considerable movement skills include the ability to use himself well with force inside. I just don't think he understands that game, that that is in his wheelhouse. Mason, I think, gets the ability to find edges, seams, etc, and to use force to advantage much better than his brother does.

So, I would not deploy Ryan as if he had lived for years with the body he has now, and is ready to body up with some bruiser inside. That is not to say that I don't think he can beat such defenders. I do.

But, he has to do it with cleverness before he receives the ball, and his teammates need to see what is coming (or where Ryan is going to go) and let him make athletic catches that provide him with space and advantage.

Historically, that has not been a strong suit of Duke's outside players, perhaps their coaches. By far the best passer of the sort I am talking about from last year's team happens to be Ryan himself, which is why I think that he'd be a great receiver and scorer off such passers. Perhaps, if he plays inside, this will be a throwback to the time when great big men were considered the focal point of the offense, got to effectively create the play, which is why they used to call the position "the pivot."

We'll see. Right now it is just barber shop talk, right?

[micah75]

Putting on muscle mass does nothing to protect against injury.

An interesting point, one which I had not considered. Yet... if we're talking about injury as it pertains to broken bones, I would think that the more muscle/fat mass, the better protected the bones. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm a skinny twig about to take a nasty fall onto the hardwood, I'm guessing I would have a bit better protection if there's some solid tissue mass inbetween skin and bone.


As I said, I do not think that Miles' considerable movement skills include the ability to use himself well with force inside.

Miles appears pretty strong to me. My perception, which of course may be faulty, is that he lacked confidence at times. Then again, there were instances when he took the ball to the basket with authority. His high jump in HS was incredible, close to 7', btw. Personally, I thought he was inconsistent with his inside game, which is understandable as an underclassman. I suspect we'll be seeing a much-improved Miles, especially now that he knows he has what it takes to be an NCAA champion.


We'll see. Right now it is just barber shop talk, right?

Yup, barber shop. But it's fun to speculate, ain't it? Thought-provoking.... thanks for your personal insights, I find them enlightening.

[greybeard]

An interesting point, one which I had not considered. Yet... if we're talking about injury as it pertains to broken bones, I would think that the more muscle/fat mass, the better protected the bones. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm a skinny twig about to take a nasty fall onto the hardwood, I'm guessing I would have a bit better protection if there's some solid tissue mass inbetween skin and bone.

Few bones get broken by falling splat and those that do have no muscle to protect them that is of any moment. You break your fall with your hand and your radial head or wrist breaks, not because of concussion but compression up through the bone from the floor in response to all the force put into it. Bones get broken, people get hurt in basketball, by sharp cuts, coming down wrong off jumps (the higher the worser), and stress fractures, all of which in my mind are amplified in terms of probability and severity by putting on muscle.





Miles appears pretty strong to me. My perception, which of course may be faulty, is that he lacked confidence at times. Then again, there were instances when he took the ball to the basket with authority. His high jump in HS was incredible, close to 7', btw. Personally, I thought he was inconsistent with his inside game, which is understandable as an underclassman. I suspect we'll be seeing a much-improved Miles, especially now that he knows he has what it takes to be an NCAA champion..

I agree that we will probably see a much improved Miles, and I certainly hope so. Inside play of the sort I understand we are talking about is a feel thing, a Judo type sense of advantage, that Miles does not seem to have. Even great ball players have developmental blind spots that position coaches can not help them with. I see Miles as quite effective away catching it 12 feet or so from the basket (whatever the foul line length is and add a couple of feet as an outside range, and being able and willing to score the ball then and there unless you really man up into him. I see him as going by people and having a pull up game or drop off game and maybe a game with some clever finishes. I also like him as a passer to cutters and into his brother. I think he will score around the basket off of drop offs from drivers, pass backs from Mason, and boarding, although I would not be surprised if he more often then not throws it out to the three line aka Zoubek on offensive boards unless there is a straight put back.

Oh, I won't be disappointed if I'm dead wrong.




Yup, barber shop. But it's fun to speculate, ain't it? Thought-provoking.... thanks for your personal insights, I find them enlightening.

I enjoy the dialogue too. By the way, I think that Ryan will benefit greatly from the added bulk and strength. I just wouldn't want to see him deployed based upon being a strength inside guy this season. It is enough that he will be able to hold his ground defending and rebounding on the interior. His strength could be a real asset too in a midrange game in which I see him bouncing with his back to the basket, taking bumps and timing them so he can turn and shoot, or turn, up fake, and shoot, either with a step through or lean back aka Dirk. The strength is a real reason for optimism for him, but I would not deploy him as a strength player inside; I would like to see him stay healthy and get a chance to have a full season to enjoy and contribute. He already has so much other game to show. Should be fun, as is this exchange.

[NSDukeFan]

...

I enjoy the dialogue too. By the way, I think that Ryan will benefit greatly from the added bulk and strength. I just wouldn't want to see him deployed based upon being a strength inside guy this season. It is enough that he will be able to hold his ground defending and rebounding on the interior. His strength could be a real asset too in a midrange game in which I see him bouncing with his back to the basket, taking bumps and timing them so he can turn and shoot, or turn, up fake, and shoot, either with a step through or lean back aka Dirk. The strength is a real reason for optimism for him, but I would not deploy him as a strength player inside; I would like to see him stay healthy and get a chance to have a full season to enjoy and contribute. He already has so much other game to show. Should be fun, as is this exchange.

This is the paragraph that I most agree with. I also think Ryan will benefit from his added strength so that he will not be pushed around when he is defending and rebounding. I do not expect Ryan to get injured while posting up inside, but I agree that is not where I expect him to be the majority of the time on offense. I think all of Ryan, Mason and Miles (probably in that order) can be effective from the high post and perhaps in the opposite order (if Miles' hands improve) as strong finishers inside. I hope and expect to see all of them get touches in the low post, but don't expect them to generate the majority of their scoring chances from there (especially Ryan.) I also expect to see all of them spending time as our biggest player and guarding the opposition's biggest inside player.
Less than a month to CTC and perhaps a little more exciting barber shop talk.

[greybeard]

This is the paragraph that I most agree with. I also think Ryan will benefit from his added strength so that he will not be pushed around when he is defending and rebounding. I do not expect Ryan to get injured while posting up inside, but I agree that is not where I expect him to be the majority of the time on offense. I think all of Ryan, Mason and Miles (probably in that order) can be effective from the high post and perhaps in the opposite order (if Miles' hands improve) as strong finishers inside. I hope and expect to see all of them get touches in the low post, but don't expect them to generate the majority of their scoring chances from there (especially Ryan.) I also expect to see all of them spending time as our biggest player and guarding the opposition's biggest inside player.
Less than a month to CTC and perhaps a little more exciting barber shop talk.

I see Ryan being a scorer on the inside but by making clever receptions on the move, which will require passers to read his leads. I think he can be effective in the low post, just not "posting up." If he is deployed in classic Duke fashion, get position, let the defender get there, hold him off, catch and then move, I do not think he will hold up. I also do not think that that is his talent. I think it more likely to see Kyle guarding a big strong guy when Miles or Mason are not available than Ryan. Same reason. Besides, Kyle will outrebound anybody he defends and I expect he will be off and running and a primary receiver for Kyrie, even if he arrives somewhat belatedly as long as he is trailed by his now defender which he will be. I hope K and I are on the same page here.


I do not see Miles being productive down low. Hands are on the end of arms which are connected to shoulders, ribs, neck and head, heck, lets throw in the rest. He does not have the type of mind that sees the inside game for what it could be, in my opinion, and that would include how he goes about faking which loses him the ball, not because he has bad hands but concepts.

Mason on the other hand has the strength to hold guys off, while maintaining the ability to create angles with his torso that will create advantage for him to spin, get shots off, good ones. Think Hansborough here sports fans.

Miles to me is a high post player who must establish a reliable shot and take it when is offered. If he does, the lane will be available to him and he will have a nice mid range game. He will get to the rim with good timing to receive kyrie's dump offs. I think he is the least likely to be a low post receiver/scorer.

[gumbomoop]

There's an interesting - and important - difference of opinion between NSDukeFan and greybeard concerning Mason and Miles. [I'll not tag quote either, as their posts are #s 14 and 15, immediately preceding.]

I think I agree with NSDukeFan re Ryan and Mason being more effective than Miles at the high post, both because they've been smoother high post passers, and have somewhat longer range on their outside shots. Miles has exhibited increasing confidence in his 15-18' jumper, but not so much from a bit further out. And IMO he's [so far] less efficient as a high post passer.

But greybeard's analysis of Miles' weakness re "concepts" is interesting, persuasive even. While many posters have expressed a hope that Miles will work on his hands, greybeard asserts that it's not his hands, but his feel for the concepts of interior movement that limit his effectiveness down low.

This leads greybeard to see Miles as more suited to high than low post. I wouldn't have thought so, and still need a little more convincing, but this particular barber-shop discussion does highlight one of the [few] questions about just how good Duke can be in '10-'11.

There seems no consensus among posters [in this and previous threads re MPs and Kelly] about exactly how they'll be deployed. I think we agree that the MPs are going to sprint downcourt [does the court slant downwards at both ends, or do "upcourt" and "downcourt" mean the same thing in bball??] for Kyrie-oop-passes. But beyond that, who knows right now? Do we sort of think that K will use all 3 at both 4 and 5, with Ryan as essentially an outside-in player, and Mason and Miles as intermittently both inside-out and outside-in guys?

I'm confused. I blame greybeard.

[roywhite]

There's an interesting - and important - difference of opinion between NSDukeFan and greybeard concerning Mason and Miles. [I'll not tag quote either, as their posts are #s 14 and 15, immediately preceding.]

I think I agree with NSDukeFan re Ryan and Mason being more effective than Miles at the high post, both because they've been smoother high post passers, and have somewhat longer range on their outside shots. Miles has exhibited increasing confidence in his 15-18' jumper, but not so much from a bit further out. And IMO he's [so far] less efficient as a high post passer.

But greybeard's analysis of Miles' weakness re "concepts" is interesting, persuasive even. While many posters have expressed a hope that Miles will work on his hands, greybeard asserts that it's not his hands, but his feel for the concepts of interior movement that limit his effectiveness down low.

This leads greybeard to see Miles as more suited to high than low post. I wouldn't have thought so, and still need a little more convincing, but this particular barber-shop discussion does highlight one of the [few] questions about just how good Duke can be in '10-'11.

There seems no consensus among posters [in this and previous threads re MPs and Kelly] about exactly how they'll be deployed. I think we agree that the MPs are going to sprint downcourt [does the court slant downwards at both ends, or do "upcourt" and "downcourt" mean the same thing in bball??] for Kyrie-oop-passes. But beyond that, who knows right now? Do we sort of think that K will use all 3 at both 4 and 5, with Ryan as essentially an outside-in player, and Mason and Miles as intermittently both inside-out and outside-in guys?

I'm confused. I blame greybeard.

This is an interesting area.

I suspect this ranks high on a list of questions and considerations that K has about this team---how best to utilize Mason, Miles, and Ryan.

[airowe]

I don't think we have a player who's strengths lie in the low post. None of the three potential candidates to play the center position have shown either the skill level or footwork to have any sustained success down low so I don't know why we'd want to put a square peg in a round hole.

I'm sure that K will play to the talents of all 3 when they're in the game, and while we will run more, thus leading to lots of fast break buckets, they all have something to offer in the half court.

Ryan, as mentioned multiple times, has great vision and passing ability from the high post. He also brings a solid face up game off the dribble (even though we didn't see it much last year) and his shot is really better than we've seen.

Miles showed some accuracy with that 15-18 footer, and I hope that continues. I think he's more comfortable finishing off the catch than having to take someone off the dribble. This is where having a guard like Kyrie to run the pick and roll with will be so valuable. Seth and Nolan too. While Brian and Lance set very good screens last season, they either didn't make themselves a good enough target on the "roll", Jon wasn't able to get them the ball, or Jon felt his shot was a better option. Hopefully, miles and his brother have been working on that slip screen and pick and roll this summer.

Mason brings most of what Miles does, but with a little less bulk and a little more of a handle. I think they'll be used in similar ways

Neither of the three really worry me on offense. I hope that the two Plumlees in particular have learned to stay at home more this year and rely on their defensive footwork more than their athleticism and hands. I think that's our biggest question mark next season.

[sagegrouse]

for... "Bringing up Dean Smith in a discussion of hoops." This was a comment on my "5-4-3-2-1 Dean Smith!" post.

That's just the point. I was looking to discredit the premise behind the thread: The 5 vs. 4 discussion is odd given that those designations are a Dean Smith invention never used by K or Duke and have no bearing on how players are used. I mean, I can remember 6-6 Chris Carrawell being assigned to Tim Duncan and 6-4 Reggie Love on Brendan Haywood.

sagegrouse

[BlueintheFace]

In a game in which Duke is able to dictate tempo (fast), I believe you will see both Plumlees down low/ running the floor. Kelly will move in and out of the rotation spelling one or the other and Josh Hairston may serve the same function depending on what level of defense he plays early on.

However, should Duke find itself in a halfcourt game, look for only one of the Plumlees to be on the floor (the better rebounder) and Kyle to push down to the 4 to create a mismatch and ensure that our most talented 5 are on the floor at the same time.

[MChambers]

Neither of the three really worry me on offense. I hope that the two Plumlees in particular have learned to stay at home more this year and rely on their defensive footwork more than their athleticism and hands. I think that's our biggest question mark next season.
Agreed. This discussion, like so many on the board, conflates the offensive and defensive roles of the players. (Who was the point guard last year? Jon on offense and Nolan on defense.)

I'm not at all worried about the offense this season. If Mason, Miles, and Ryan can score in the halfcourt, great, but it's just a bonus. The team will score a lot, and our bigs will get a lot of easy baskets in transition and off of penetration from the wings.

I'm still a little worried about defense, however. As airowe points out, neither Plumlee moved his feet very well last year. Also, with more extended pressure defense, our bigs will need to provide good help defense.

[BD80]

I don't think we have a player who's strengths lie in the low post. ...

This is where having a guard like Kyrie to run the pick and roll with will be so valuable. Seth and Nolan too. While Brian and Lance set very good screens last season, they either didn't make themselves a good enough target on the "roll", Jon wasn't able to get them the ball, or Jon felt his shot was a better option. Hopefully, miles and his brother have been working on that slip screen and pick and roll this summer. ...

There really isn't much pick and roll in the college game today. I think it could be a GREAT weapon for Duke with the talent we have this year.

If only there was a way Coach K could get some "live fire" experience with the pick and roll at the very highest level. Maybe play against a group of teams that have played together for years and run the pick and roll as their offensive staple. A group of teams that had highly skilled big men to set picks and then roll or slip out for the shot.

But I am dreaming, where oh where could Coach K ever get experience like that?

(Yeah, that's another "I told you so" shot at those that questioned whether Coach K's involvement in team USA would benefit Duke)


... look for only one of the Plumlees to be on the floor (the better rebounder) and Kyle to push down to the 4 to create a mismatch and ensure that our most talented 5 are on the floor at the same time.

And how many minutes do you see Kyle playing at the "4?"

No, I really don't want you to answer, I am just commenting on the propensity for every thread to devolve into a Kyle playing the "4" and who plays how many minutes discussion.


... I'm still a little worried about defense, however. As airowe points out, neither Plumlee moved his feet very well last year. Also, with more extended pressure defense, our bigs will need to provide good help defense.

OK, this is in comparison to how well Zoubs moved his feet? Do you realize how absurd that comment would have seemed even a year ago? How many people were lamenting Z's slow feet and relegating him to the bench in favor of the much quicker Plumlee's?

I think we will be just fine in the post. Miles improved his positioning greatly over his freshman year, which is why he took many minutes from his brother. Mason "looks" like he moves quicker in the post because he is often scrambling to catch up to someone due to the fact he hadn't been in the right spot on defense. Many of Mason's defensive plays are from BEHIND a man that beat him to a spot or beat him off the dribble. Mason was a freshman. He should be MUCH improved this year.

Ryan has the best instincts, vision and feel for the game of the three. If he can hold his position down low, he will be the best defender of the three - if only because he will be where he is supposed to be and will play the best team defense.

[CDu]

I'm still a little worried about defense, however. As airowe points out, neither Plumlee moved his feet very well last year. Also, with more extended pressure defense, our bigs will need to provide good help defense.

I compeltely agree. With Singler, Smith, Irving, Curry, and Dawkins, I'm not terribly concerned about offense from the bigs. The defensive end is going to be the key. Thomas was a very good post defender last year, and Zoubek was an very good defensive rebounder and turned into a solid positional defender. The Plumlees certainly have the athleticism to be fantastic defenders, but they still need to show improved footwork defensively and to prove that they're able to handle the responsibilities necessary with regard to rotations and help defense.

I'm less concerned about whom the two will be guarding (they both have the size and athleticism to defend either the 4 or 5) and more concerned about whether they'll be ready to play. Hopefully they've made great strides on the defensive end. If they have, look out!

[Bob Green]

The Plumlees certainly have the athleticism to be fantastic defenders, but they still need to show improved footwork defensively and to prove that they're able to handle the responsibilities necessary with regard to rotations and help defense.

This season will be Miles Plumlee's third year at Duke and I believe he will make a great leap forward in regard to understanding and executing Coach k's defensive scheme. I know I've come across like a "broken record" this off season but the performance of the Plumlee Brothers will go a long way toward Duke playing to their potential in 2010-11.

[MChambers]

OK, this is in comparison to how well Zoubs moved his feet? Do you realize how absurd that comment would have seemed even a year ago? How many people were lamenting Z's slow feet and relegating him to the bench in favor of the much quicker Plumlee's?
You know, as I typed my post, I realized how absurd it seemed, given how successful Zoubs was down the stretch., despite being slow But the fact is that Zoubs became a very good defensive big, even if he is only marginally quicker than Mark Eaton (you can look him up). Remember him coming out on the shooter in the last seconds of the BC game? And of course we all remember his defense on Hayward's next to last shot.

I guess that's my point. Zoubs learned to provide effective defense by moving his feet and not reaching. I'm hoping our bigs this year learn that as well. I have no doubt they have the physical ability to be good defenders, but they need to learn.

[BD80]

... But the fact is that Zoubs became a very good defensive big, even if he is only marginally quicker than Mark Eaton (you can look him up). ...

Ah, Mark Eaton. the easiest three-second call ever. If he went into the lane the ref could blow the whistle, confident that Eaton wasn't quick enough to get OUT of the lane is less than three seconds. The man could set a pick though!

I once saw Eaton run out and finish on a break. The look of terror in the eyes of those seated under and behind the basket will stay with me my entire life.

[greybeard]

You know, as I typed my post, I realized how absurd it seemed, given how successful Zoubs was down the stretch., despite being slow But the fact is that Zoubs became a very good defensive big, even if he is only marginally quicker than Mark Eaton (you can look him up). Remember him coming out on the shooter in the last seconds of the BC game? And of course we all remember his defense on Hayward's next to last shot.

I guess that's my point. Zoubs learned to provide effective defense by moving his feet and not reaching. I'm hoping our bigs this year learn that as well. I have no doubt they have the physical ability to be good defenders, but they need to learn.

Zoubek was not nearly, not in the same universe as nearly, slow of foot, slow of reaction, as many of you are saying, and as most everyone was saying before last year.

He played two years with a severely impaired foot. That can hamper a person.

Last year his defense was outstanding, both on and off the ball. He saw the game beautifully, positioned himself well, and understood how and when to extend to disrupt, and at other times to block, a shot. He impeded passes, slowed the ball handler off screens and recovered well, often in multiple combination with Thomas. He moved terrifically, albeit, on the court defensively and offensively.

Zoubek in my view will improve considerably when he learns, figures out, how to let go of the rigidity in his spine, especially his neck, well, his entire spine, and softens his ribs.

Miles has issues but they are not with his feet. They have to do with balance; he is prone to leaning forward, perhaps with his head too far in front of him. He seems to have to collect himself more than he should when undertaking a change in direction, and is, I think, restricted in his ability to turn, to take angles. At the same time, he has incredible athletic gifts, which mask what I see as real blind spots.

Course, this is just a guess based upon TV observations, but a guy with his coordination and body and ability to elevate, something does not compute.

These are just guesses based upon distant visual observations on TV.

[sagegrouse]

Zoubek in my view will improve considerably when he learns, figures out, how to let go of the rigidity in his spine, especially his neck, well, his entire spine, and softens his ribs.

.

Zoubs is clumsy and a big guy can grow out of that learning body control and coordination. My concern about Zoubs, which may or may not make a difference in the NBA given his size, is that I never saw him jump more than six inches in the air -- well, maybe twelve, but you get my point.

sagegrouse
'I would love to see a clip of Zoubs 24" in the air'

[BD80]

...
sagegrouse
'I would love to see a clip of Zoubs 24" in the air'

He could jump off a unc frat balcony like that big ugly white fellow did a year or two back