Values and Honor

[4decadedukie]

I have long considered whether a thread of this sort would be appropriate in DBR’s Off-Topic Forum and, after rereading our rules, I decided it would be as long as it remains civil and apolitical. Perhaps the fact that today is 11 September also causes me to generate this.

The issue I – but really we as a national and global society – confront is deficient values, especially the rampant greed (for material things as well as for “celebrity,” and all that it bestows) that seems so evident and widespread. This apparently extends to virtually every facet of life, virtually every profession, and virtually every demographic. I am particularly saddened, however, that athletics – both amateur and professional, at all proficiency levels – are clearly not immune.

This is the link to DBR and our traditional areas of consideration. How many individual lack-of-integrity and deceitful character related posts and threads have we seen in the last years? Moreover, how many group moral deficiencies have been reported – not to consider all those that are not publicly documented – even at highly reputed universities (UNC-CH, USC, and so forth)? Hardly a day goes by when there is not an additional sports team or individual professional or “student” athlete who is not accused (or punished) of some sort of underhandedness, academic duplicity, dishonesty, criminality or boorishness; IMHO, at the root of much of this unfailingly is flagrant greed.

Why is this so? Why do highly visible (I am not ready to suggest that these are majorities, or even substantial minorities . . . I do not have the data to do so) elements of the athletics, business, law, the ministry, government, and so much more compromise their personal and/or collective honor and denigrate commonly acknowledged ideals, not to survive (or to attain a very nice lifestyles) but rather to have a “tenth million invested,” or a “third Colorado ski-vacation home,” or even to pass an elementary, undergraduate course without effort? In addition, what does this broad trend suggest for our nation and the world?

I truly do not understand this, and the ethics of my upbringing and professional foundation-career as a Naval officer provide no real insight, finding all this both inexplicable and unacceptable. Therefore, that is my query – and your opinions and experiences (within DBR’s policies) would be sincerely appreciated.

[ncexnyc]

I could give you a long and boring history lesson, but the bottom line is, it's human nature.

[4decadedukie]

I could give you a long and boring history lesson, but the bottom line is, it's human nature.

With respect, do you believe this is more-prevalent in contemporary America then it was a seventy years or a century or two ago?

[Lord Ash]

With respect, do you believe this is more-prevalent in contemporary America then it was a seventy years or a century or two ago?

Nope; just easier to see because of how "small" the world has become.

Humans can be painfully and depressingly greedy, often at the cost of others.

However, we are also capable of wonderful kindness and selflessness, so always remember there is a balance.

Otherwise, this might be too large of a topic for a message board:)

[JohnGalt]

I could give you a long and boring history lesson, but the bottom line is, it's human nature.

As much as I'd like to agree with you 4decade, I'm more inclinded to side with necexyc on this one. I seem to remember reading a quote from Teddy Roosevelt in Theodore Rex where he chastised the youth (the next generation) as being morally decrepid, lacking any real sense of the present day social mores, etc etc. And that was the generation that would go on to survive the Great Depression, let alone win WWI! It seems to me they were doing something right...

Changing times, changing standards. I think it's mostly a perception thing. Different folks from different generations just perceive society differently.

Besides, without the virtue of selfishness, we'd all be far, far worse off... :D

[pfrduke]

Tom Friedman would agree with you.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/12/opinion/12friedman.html?src=me&ref=homepage

[77devil]

Tom Friedman would agree with you.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/12/opinion/12friedman.html?src=me&ref=homepage

Sad but oh so true. Clearly we haven't applied the lessons of history.

[4decadedukie]

While I respect the views (and the experience and the wisdom) of the several commenters to this thread who have suggested that such behavior is "simply human nature" and "thus, it has always been," I am compelled to note that today's Wake suspension of Tony Woods if yet another example of my point re terrible -- and sometime criminal -- comportment.

I KNOW this sort of behavior simply was not as common a generation or two ago (and, yes, some of that could be a less-benevolent media plus far more rapid and widespread digital information dissemination). Nevertheless, I am convinced that my fundamental theses (initial post to this thread) are valid. I add this post ONLY because I am concerned and convinced this is a problem of real significance.

[ncexnyc]

Ah, the world was so nice and safe growing up during the late 50's and early 60's. Of course then I slowly came to see the light. I recall crouching under my desk at P.S. 70 during an air raid drill in the midst of the Cuban Missile Crisis. I remember the news footage of attack dogs being set loose on blacks, because they had the audacity to protest against the status quo. I was puzzled watching a Buddhist monk set himself on fire because he was protesting a bogus war, one which my family and I blindly supported because we were told the Communist monolith had to be kept at bay, something about dominos and some other foolishness.

Nostalgia is great, every generation feels it, again it’s the phrase that pays, “human nature.” I guess each and every one of us has a point of reference of what constitutes, “The good old days.”
If you’re a Native American you’re probably not to nostalgic for anything after the white man first comes to this continent. If you’re African-American I’m not sure where you’re point of reference for, “The good old days” is. Now I mention these two groups of people since they were deeply impacted by the so-called values and honor of a great society.

Money and power have a way of corrupting the best people. Do a quick Google for 18th and 19th Century scandals and you’ll find lots of political and sexual scandals involving some very famous people. Are we to believe these were just random incidents? No they weren’t. These are the most famous cases and that’s why they’ve been passed down through history, but you can bet your bottom dollar that there were quite a few more that took place with the average run of the mill Joe, but because they happened way back when they aren’t newsworthy today.

The beast resides in all of us. The laws we as a society put into place help curtail that monster. If you want to argue that society has loosened the reigns on the beast then I will buy that argument, but my point is that this is and always has been part of human nature.

[Lord Ash]

I KNOW this sort of behavior simply was not as common a generation or two ago (and, yes, some of that could be a less-benevolent media plus far more rapid and widespread digital information dissemination). .

I simply am not sure your basic underlying tenant is true. Is this what you meant to say?

As far as "the good old days;" often "the good old days" are simply the times when a person was younger, times further back and often fondly remembered through the oft-foggy lens of time and distance.

[4decadedukie]

I simply am not sure your basic underlying tenant is true. Is this what you meant to say?

It really is what I intended to say, LA. Perhaps, too concisely, here is my rationale:

a) We observe a seemingly endless series of individuals with deficient integrity and values, frequently leading to serious problems (in many societal segments and demographics -- including athletics) that may likely be related to greed (financial, material, celebrity/fame, undue influence, etc.). You have eloquently written about this same phenomenon recently on DBR, discussing a lack of personal responsibility/accountability and no sense of shame or societal interest.

b) I acknowledge that some of this may perception-related, due to be greater visibility of unethical/illicit/criminal behavior, resulting both from a media that (generations ago) did not report many untoward and indecent occurrences (consider Ford’s, Martin’s and Mantle’s escapades in the 1950s/1960s) and from instantaneous digital dissemination of information.

c) Nonetheless, it seems evident that these sorts of things appear to happen with FAR GREATER FREQUENCY today than in decades past, and certainly not just in spots (business, law, politics, academic research, the ministry, and so forth are obviously not immune to this same broad, adverse societal trend).

d) Finally, this is a very serious problem, one that erodes the ethical foundations of our nation, it is far more prevalent now than in generations past, and the sordid role models it engenders are liable to make ensuing generations even more prone to accept disreputable behavior and flawed standards as the norm.

I have long respected your opinions; therefore, your comments on this -- and related -- threads are quite important to me.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

For an ongoing discussion of values and honor in the context of a real life situation, take a look at the thread about Reggie Bush and the Heisman.

I've read the posts and thought at length on this topic and wondered to what extent our expectations on it reflect how we each view people and their motivatons. I'm thinking here about the two theories of management first introduced back in the last ice age..... Theory X and Theory Y. I've also wondered if those of us who have chosen service careers may have a more idealistic view of values and honor.

[4decadedukie]

For an ongoing discussion of values and honor in the context of a real life situation, take a look at the thread about Reggie Bush and the Heisman.

I've read the posts and thought at length on this topic and wondered to what extent our expectations on it reflect how we each view people and their motivatons. I'm thinking here about the two theories of management first introduced back in the last ice age..... Theory X and Theory Y. I've also wondered if those of us who have chosen service careers may have a more idealistic view of values and honor.

THANK YOU for your very thoughtful post. I was particularly interested in your concluding comment re "service careers.” I am not sure I would say "idealistic" -- simply because the level of ethics and honesty I suggest is, in fact, the norm in the services (and, yes, regrettably, there are exceptions, but they are few) -- but I certainly do understand that this is "idealistic" in the broader societal context.

[4decadedukie]

Ah, the world was so nice and safe growing up during the late 50's and early 60's. Of course then I slowly came to see the light. I recall crouching under my desk at P.S. 70 during an air raid drill in the midst of the Cuban Missile Crisis. I remember the news footage of attack dogs being set loose on blacks, because they had the audacity to protest against the status quo. I was puzzled watching a Buddhist monk set himself on fire because he was protesting a bogus war, one which my family and I blindly supported because we were told the Communist monolith had to be kept at bay, something about dominos and some other foolishness.

Nostalgia is great, every generation feels it, again it’s the phrase that pays, “human nature.” I guess each and every one of us has a point of reference of what constitutes, “The good old days.”
If you’re a Native American you’re probably not to nostalgic for anything after the white man first comes to this continent. If you’re African-American I’m not sure where you’re point of reference for, “The good old days” is. Now I mention these two groups of people since they were deeply impacted by the so-called values and honor of a great society.

Money and power have a way of corrupting the best people. Do a quick Google for 18th and 19th Century scandals and you’ll find lots of political and sexual scandals involving some very famous people. Are we to believe these were just random incidents? No they weren’t. These are the most famous cases and that’s why they’ve been passed down through history, but you can bet your bottom dollar that there were quite a few more that took place with the average run of the mill Joe, but because they happened way back when they aren’t newsworthy today.

The beast resides in all of us. The laws we as a society put into place help curtail that monster. If you want to argue that society has loosened the reigns on the beast then I will buy that argument, but my point is that this is and always has been part of human nature.

I completely understand all that you are saying -- and I fully agree with you -- having lived through those same experiences. However, I view this as an “apples to oranges" debate. The comportment, integrity and character concerns I am attempting to highlight are INDIVIDUAL in their nature, not SOCIETAL or GLOBAL. In the 1950s and 1960s, the issues you so well describe appear to me to be far more focused on the society's (and the world’s) deficiencies (racism, Vietnam, the Cold War, and so forth), rather than on the largely greed-motivated duplicity and illicit behavior of individuals.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

THANK YOU for your very thoughtful post. I was particularly interested in your concluding comment re "service careers.” I am not sure I would say "idealistic" -- simply because the level of ethics and honesty I suggest is, in fact, the norm in the services (and, yes, regrettably, there are exceptions, but they are few) -- but I certainly do understand that this is "idealistic" in the broader societal context.

I wasn't altogether satisfied with "idealistic" as a descriptor. I tried variations of purist and some others and finally settled on idealistic influenced primarily by comments I've heard over the years from those outside the service careers.

[ncexnyc]

I completely understand all that you are saying -- and I fully agree with you -- having lived through those same experiences. However, I view this as an “apples to oranges" debate. The comportment, integrity and character concerns I am attempting to highlight are INDIVIDUAL in their nature, not SOCIETAL or GLOBAL. In the 1950s and 1960s, the issues you so well describe appear to me to be far more focused on the society's (and the world’s) deficiencies (racism, Vietnam, the Cold War, and so forth), rather than on the largely greed-motivated duplicity and illicit behavior of individuals.

But aren't the morals and values of a society reflected in the behavior of it's citizens? I'm not really sure you can seperate one from the other.

[lmb]

Ah, the world was so nice and safe growing up during the late 50's and early 60's. Of course then I slowly came to see the light. I recall crouching under my desk at P.S. 70 during an air raid drill in the midst of the Cuban Missile Crisis. I remember the news footage of attack dogs being set loose on blacks, because they had the audacity to protest against the status quo. I was puzzled watching a Buddhist monk set himself on fire because he was protesting a bogus war, one which my family and I blindly supported because we were told the Communist monolith had to be kept at bay, something about dominos and some other foolishness.

Nostalgia is great, every generation feels it, again it’s the phrase that pays, “human nature.” I guess each and every one of us has a point of reference of what constitutes, “The good old days.”
If you’re a Native American you’re probably not to nostalgic for anything after the white man first comes to this continent. If you’re African-American I’m not sure where you’re point of reference for, “The good old days” is. Now I mention these two groups of people since they were deeply impacted by the so-called values and honor of a great society.

Money and power have a way of corrupting the best people. Do a quick Google for 18th and 19th Century scandals and you’ll find lots of political and sexual scandals involving some very famous people. Are we to believe these were just random incidents? No they weren’t. These are the most famous cases and that’s why they’ve been passed down through history, but you can bet your bottom dollar that there were quite a few more that took place with the average run of the mill Joe, but because they happened way back when they aren’t newsworthy today.

The beast resides in all of us. The laws we as a society put into place help curtail that monster. If you want to argue that society has loosened the reigns on the beast then I will buy that argument, but my point is that this is and always has been part of human nature.


I totally agree that human nature has always been this way. However, I think there has been a slip in some of the smaller things. Common courtesies and public behavior, good manners, if you will, have degenerated over time IMHO.

[4decadedukie]

But aren't the morals and values of a society reflected in the behavior of it's citizens? I'm not really sure you can seperate one from the other.


I have thought about this at length, and I certainly recognize your point: the morals and values of a society are reflected in its citizens’ decisions and comportment. Nevertheless, I respectfully suggest that there are major differences between INDIVIDUAL duplicity and illicit behavior and SOCIETAL shortcomings, however flagrant. This is the point I attempted to make in post #14 to this thread.

Perhaps I can illustrate my case in the following way. Nazi German (the Holocaust) and the Soviet Union (the Gulag, etc.) may well have been responsible for the world’s worst genocides – and, obviously, that is about as morally corrupt and terrible as anything we humans can imagine. Certainly, the amorality and the excesses of the Nazi and the Communist hierarchies were reflected in individually dreadful behavior (for example, the SS concentration camps commander or even a guard at a death camp). BUT, personal, self-interested, likely greed-driven duplicity and underhandedness exists – to one extent or another – at all times and under all political regimes and environments; national or societal corruption and decadence are NOT required for these individual immoralities to flourish. You can select any era in history – and any venue during that period – and you find some individuals who employed cheating, fraudulence, and deceit for personal gain (money, power, influence, fame/celebrity, material wellbeing, and so forth) to the serious detriment of others.

The overall point of this thread, which I initiated a few days ago, is that this sort of INDIVIDUAL selfish and dishonest behavior seems to me to be far more prevalent now than in generations past – and in a wide variety of societal demographics, professions, and circumstances (including sports and individual athletes/coaches).

[brevity]

I've also wondered if those of us who have chosen service careers may have a more idealistic view of values and honor.

As a civilian whose public service is only limited to employment, rather than deployment, I want to say that people in general seem very appreciative, respectful, and honorable when in the face of men and women who are serving or have served in the armed forces. But, absent that occasional reminder, they proceed to be their reckless selves.

If I can draw an analogy, it's like how drivers sit upright and suddenly become conscientious when they see the remnants of a car accident, but then slouch and resume their normal habits once the reminder wears off. Or when some celebrity dies and people remark, "That really puts things into perspective," as if their perspective would ever permanently be altered by such an emotionally distant circumstance.

So I would conclude that many people today are capable of acting extraordinarily if somehow reminded to do so, but would ordinarily not make the effort. I would hesitate to place this level of normalcy on a fixed scale of morality, but I would very easily characterize it as "careless" or even "sloppy."

[Johnboy]

A few quick remarks that I can flesh out if you'd like, but I'm simply stating broad theories here that I believe explain our perception in these areas. I'm not going into much detail. Here are my explanations for either the real or perceived decline of Western values over the past few decades:

First - As stated by others above, I agree that a substantial portion of what middle aged and older folks (I'm 46) perceive as decline is a result of (i) nostalgia and (ii) the information explosion (including a modern media structure that can't ignore irrelevancies like a media whore pastor of a 50 member "church" threatening to burn Korans).

Second - I'll call it modern inclusiveness: The WASP Old Boy network has been broken down by greater access for minorities, women and people from poorer backgrounds who were not raised with bourgeois values. Title IX, student loans, financial aid, affirmative action, the GI Bill, anti-discrimination laws and the like have opened doors that were previously shut to the hoi polloi. My personal opinion is that these doors being opened to those previously shut out is an advance and a tremendous net benefit for society, but there is a cost when one considers a loss of shared values. Simply put, the folkways and mores of the elite are not shared as universally as they once were (and on the whole, thank God for that).

Third - General societal decay. This is broader than the specific topic of values and honor. I have this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Age_Ahead)on my short list of books to read. Her thesis is summarized as follows in the link above:
Dark Age Ahead is a 2004 book by Jane Jacobs describing what she sees as the decay of five key "pillars" in the U.S. and Canada. She argues that this decay threatens to create a dark age unless the trends are reversed. Jacobs characterizes a dark age as a "mass amnesia" where even the memory of what was lost is lost. The pillars Jacobs lists as under threat are:
* community and family
* higher education
* science and technology
* taxes and government responsive to citizen's needs
* self-policing by the learned professions


My brief, half-baked $.02

[Johnboy]

Tom Friedman would agree with you.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/12/opinion/12friedman.html?src=me&ref=homepage

Good article there.

OTOH, I have to admit, even while this seems to be a time of decay in our traditional values, I feel there's a major nostalgia component in all this. We might as well be shaking our cane and yelling at these young whippersnappers to get off our lawn.

[DukieInKansas]

Just my $0.02:

1. I think the 24 hours news cycle has a lot to do with the perception. When news wasn't so accessible, the bad acts of someone in Buffalo NY wouldn't be news in Kansas City. I don't know if it is actually more prevalent or just that we hear about cases in places that are further away.

2. It does seem that people may not be as courteous/helpful to strangers as us "old" folks remember. Run a simple test - go out of your way to do something for someone and watch their face. For example, if you are walking down the street and see a person pushing a stroller heading into a store, go open the the door for them but don't follow them in. If it is an entry where there are two sets of doors- hold them both. You will get a look of surprise. (I like to do things like this just to freak people out.)

3. Hope for the future - I look at the things the youth at our church do and I know there are good kids out there that will grow up to be good adults. Three years ago, 9 kids went on a mission trip, two years ago 13 kids went, and this year we took 23 kids. I think this is a good sign.

[4decadedukie]

The WASP Old Boy network has been broken down by greater access for minorities, women and people from poorer backgrounds who were not raised with bourgeois values. Title IX, student loans, financial aid, affirmative action, the GI Bill, anti-discrimination laws and the like have opened doors that were previously shut to the hoi polloi. My personal opinion is that these doors being opened to those previously shut out is an advance and a tremendous net benefit for society, but there is a cost when one considers a loss of shared values. Simply put, the folkways and mores of the elite are not shared as universally as they once were (and on the whole, thank God for that).


I whloeheartedly agree! IMHO, this is an excellent input; I am not overly certain that changing "mores and folkways" should alter fundamental ethics, however, your overall point is VERY important and well-stated.