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View Full Version : Pete Rose in a nutshell



Spencer's Daddy
09-10-2010, 02:30 PM
Great description of Pete Rose by Rick Reilly:

"I never saw a man enjoy his work more than Pete Rose. He played every game like he'd been let out of solitary confinement for the day. He didn't read books, never went to college and was unfit for cocktail parties. He was 99-44/100 percent baseball, from that butcher-block head to his endlessly tapping feet.

He would sprint to first on walks, slide face-first into second and slam baseballs into the AstroTurf on third outs.

He could compute his average on the way to first. He knew which were strike umps, ball umps, high umps, low umps, hitters' umps and pitchers' umps. Rose even knew which ground crews were bunt-friendly. "

They're going to let him in the Cincinnati ballpark this weekend, to create his 4192nd hit. (Of course, Eric Show is dead, so it will be a little hard).

rasputin
09-10-2010, 02:54 PM
Great description of Pete Rose by Rick Reilly:

"I never saw a man enjoy his work more than Pete Rose. He played every game like he'd been let out of solitary confinement for the day. He didn't read books, never went to college and was unfit for cocktail parties. He was 99-44/100 percent baseball, from that butcher-block head to his endlessly tapping feet.

He would sprint to first on walks, slide face-first into second and slam baseballs into the AstroTurf on third outs.

He could compute his average on the way to first. He knew which were strike umps, ball umps, high umps, low umps, hitters' umps and pitchers' umps. Rose even knew which ground crews were bunt-friendly. "

They're going to let him in the Cincinnati ballpark this weekend, to create his 4192nd hit. (Of course, Eric Show is dead, so it will be a little hard).

There's a great piece on the tragic life and death of Eric Show on ESPN's website today.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=5543839

Olympic Fan
09-10-2010, 03:38 PM
It's hard to look at Pete's career objectively because of the gambling issue (and a few other unsavory incidents).

But it we were to examine his playing career in a vacuum, I would have to suggest that Pete is one of the most overrated player in baseball history. It's funny because the guy he batted in front of for most of his career is one of the kore underrated players in the game's history.

Now don't get me wrong -- Pete was an outstanding player, valuable for his enthusiasm and his willingness to play a number of positions (although he played none of them particularly well ... his two gold gloves in the outfield not withstanding).

But the fact is that too many fans are mesmerized by his hit record. Rose is evidence that in terms of perception it's better to do one thing very well than to do a wide variety of things. Rose hit a lot of singles. Rose hit more singgles than anybody in baseball history. But he rarely walked and he had little power.

His career average of .303 is nothing special, especially for a singles hitter. His career OPS is .784 ... is OPS plus is 118 -- to put it in perspective, Derek Jeter has been a more significant offensive force in his career than Pete was. Chipper Jones has been significantly more productive -- his career WAR is already far better than Rose's. His career OPS plus blows him away.

Of course, Joe Morgan, who usually batted behind Rose, is in the Hall of Fame. He doesn't have any gaudy single stat like Rose, but he was a far more productive offensive player (caeer .819 OPS/132 OPS plus). He was a legit gold glove second baseman and one of the the best baserunners of all time (he's 11th alltime in stolen bases, but he has a better stolen base percentage than everybody in front of him ... by contrast, Rose had a terrible 57 percent success rate on his 347 SB attempts).

I know Morgan is recognized as a great player, but I would also suggest that the perception is that Rose was a greater player ... and that's simply not true.

The two greatest members of the Big Red Machine were Morgan and Johnny Bench (arguably the greatest catcher in baseball history -- either he or Yogi). I'm not sure that Rose was third ... you can make a good case that Tony Perez (122 career OPS plus) was a more productive player on those teams.

I think Rose is a Hall of Famer (minus the gambling issue) ... but he's not the slam-dunk alltime great that many of his devotees seem to think.

rasputin
09-10-2010, 04:33 PM
It's hard to look at Pete's career objectively because of the gambling issue (and a few other unsavory incidents).

But it we were to examine his playing career in a vacuum, I would have to suggest that Pete is one of the most overrated player in baseball history. It's funny because the guy he batted in front of for most of his career is one of the kore underrated players in the game's history.

Now don't get me wrong -- Pete was an outstanding player, valuable for his enthusiasm and his willingness to play a number of positions (although he played none of them particularly well ... his two gold gloves in the outfield not withstanding).

But the fact is that too many fans are mesmerized by his hit record. Rose is evidence that in terms of perception it's better to do one thing very well than to do a wide variety of things. Rose hit a lot of singles. Rose hit more singgles than anybody in baseball history. But he rarely walked and he had little power.

His career average of .303 is nothing special, especially for a singles hitter. His career OPS is .784 ... is OPS plus is 118 -- to put it in perspective, Derek Jeter has been a more significant offensive force in his career than Pete was. Chipper Jones has been significantly more productive -- his career WAR is already far better than Rose's. His career OPS plus blows him away.

Of course, Joe Morgan, who usually batted behind Rose, is in the Hall of Fame. He doesn't have any gaudy single stat like Rose, but he was a far more productive offensive player (caeer .819 OPS/132 OPS plus). He was a legit gold glove second baseman and one of the the best baserunners of all time (he's 11th alltime in stolen bases, but he has a better stolen base percentage than everybody in front of him ... by contrast, Rose had a terrible 57 percent success rate on his 347 SB attempts).

I know Morgan is recognized as a great player, but I would also suggest that the perception is that Rose was a greater player ... and that's simply not true.

The two greatest members of the Big Red Machine were Morgan and Johnny Bench (arguably the greatest catcher in baseball history -- either he or Yogi). I'm not sure that Rose was third ... you can make a good case that Tony Perez (122 career OPS plus) was a more productive player on those teams.

I think Rose is a Hall of Famer (minus the gambling issue) ... but he's not the slam-dunk alltime great that many of his devotees seem to think.

I agree that Rose is among the most overrated players ever. (Nolan Ryan is in the discussion too.) The terrible base stealing percentage is a great big ouch for Rose, and it's odd, because my recollection of him was as an excellent base runner, although obviously he wasn't even an adequate base stealer.

Oh, and one more name has to be in the discussion for greatest catcher ever: Josh Gibson.

Olympic Fan
09-10-2010, 07:31 PM
Oh, and one more name has to be in the discussion for greatest catcher ever: Josh Gibson.

Good observation.

When you start talking about alltime greats, it's really hard to know where to rate the great Negro League stars. The success of black players in the Majors once the barriers were dropped suggests that guys like Gibson, John Henry Lloyd, Buck Leonard and the like deserve to be ranked among the greatest ever. Guys such as Jackie Robinson, Ray Dandridge, Roy Campanella and, of course, Satchel Paige, who lost a portion of their career (in Dandridge and Paige's cases, a HUGE portion) to the color line, are also in the mix.

So I guess I should re-phrase the observation to be that either Johnny Bench or Yogi Berra (probably Bench -- they are almost equal offensively and defensively, except that Bench played in an era when catches had to stop the running game; few players ran in Berra's era) was the greatest MAJOR LEAGUE catcher of all time.

OldPhiKap
09-11-2010, 07:02 PM
I would have to suggest that Pete is one of the most overrated player in baseball history.

Wow. Olympic, I'm not sure I ever recall disagreeing with you but I gots to here. Charlie Hustle was the heart and soul of the Big Red Machine. He brought it every play, every inning, every base. Again, putting the gambling aside for a moment, his competitive fire mirrors exactly what K and Bobby Knight preach. Live every possession/pitch/slide/fielding opportunity as if your life depended on it. He was the Wojo of baseball in his era.

I will admit, the Big Red Machine was in its heyday when I came of (baseball) age. So I had great respect for that entire team, and probably still have my Johnny Bench Batter Up in my basement somewhere. Rose is one of those players whose stats do not nearly tell the whole story or do him justice -- and the stats are more than sufficient to get him into the Hall.

Any man who would crash home like he did in an All-Star game is equivalent to the player who jumps into the stands to save a ball during a basketball exhibition. Rare.

Anyway, I appreciate your breakdown because it is obviously well-considered. And I wholeheartedly agree that Joe Morgan is one of the all-time best.

-- OPK