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View Full Version : Is this a serious problem for Kentucky and Calipari?



4decadedukie
09-07-2010, 07:35 PM
Today's New York Times reports that UK's foremaost recruit (center Enes Kanter) received more than $100,000 in cash and benefits over a three-year period from a Turkish professional team (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/08/sports/ncaabasketball/08basketball.html?ref=sports).

Lord Ash
09-07-2010, 07:37 PM
I was just about to post this.

Kanter is allowed to have room and board and, I believe, expenses paid for by the team. However, would that be 33k a year?

BTW, what does this quote mean?

“There was no money, from what we’re seeing, what the kid is saying and the family, and what Nike is saying," said Calipari.

What does Nike have to do with it? Do they sponsor the Turkish team? Did I miss that?

Couldn't happen to a nicer fellow than Cal.

[insert Cal joke here]

And 100k over three years? What a rip. He could have made twice that in just a year at KY.

[/insert Cal joke here]

Lord Ash
09-07-2010, 07:48 PM
Ah, apparently Canter had a shoe deal with Nike?

yancem
09-07-2010, 10:21 PM
Today's New York Times reports that UK's foremaost recruit (center Enes Kanter) received more than $100,000 in cash and benefits over a three-year period from a Turkish professional team (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/08/sports/ncaabasketball/08basketball.html?ref=sports).

I wold guess that this will mean that Kanter will be rule ineligible to play college ball but since he hasn't played any games yet, I don't think that KY or Cal will get in any trouble for this. Of course if Cal did anything to try to cover this up, then that is another story. And with Cal, you never know. Regardless, it is only a matter of time before Cal get caught with his hand in the recruiting jar.

Greg_Newton
09-07-2010, 10:24 PM
BTW, what does this quote mean?

“There was no money, from what we’re seeing, what the kid is saying and the family, and what Nike is saying," said Calipari.[/insert Cal joke here]

FWIW, that quote is from April, so it's not a response to these current allegations. But yes, I think your follow-up post is on target.

This is great news to me. It would pretty much eliminate UK from the elite this year - even in terms of pure talent - and would only add to the growing stench and distrust around Cal. Sure, he'll say he had no idea, like always, but it's just another on a long list of shady incidents that "poor ol Cal" happened to get burned by. With each additional one, the likelihood that he was ignorant/complacent decreases, even in the generally trusting public eye.

There is clearly a fire burning in Lexington, and the more smoke people see, the more attention it will get!

SoCalDukeFan
09-07-2010, 11:37 PM
Did Cal look into what is going on or did he merely ask the player and Nike?

Evidently USC was supposed to do more that just ask Reggie if his parents got a house.

How hard did Cal look?

SoCal

Kedsy
09-07-2010, 11:42 PM
Did Cal look into what is going on or did he merely ask the player and Nike?

Evidently USC was supposed to do more that just ask Reggie if his parents got a house.

How hard did Cal look?

SoCal

Well, Bush played for USC for three years. Kanter hasn't played a minute for Kentucky. Big difference, I'd say.

SeattleIrish
09-08-2010, 01:26 AM
Did Cal look into what is going on or did he merely ask the player and Nike?

Evidently USC was supposed to do more that just ask Reggie if his parents got a house.

How hard did Cal look?

SoCal

Perhaps as hard as we/K looked at Corey?

I do think Cal is an unethical coach and bends/breaks/ignores/facilitates/allows all sorts of shennanigans to go on. However, I do think this particular case, a player receiving improper benefits prior to enrollment, is not the hill on which we Duke fans want to die.

I can't imagine Cal lasting another 5 years at Kentucky. A shame to have such an unethical coach follow Tubby Smith, one of the really good guys in college coaching.

s.i.

theAlaskanBear
09-08-2010, 04:30 AM
I think Calipari is dirty and hate UK as much as the next guy, but I'm not sure we are barking up the right tree. If it is true that Kanter didn't receive any cash benefits (I have my doubts, but whatever) then I have no problem. Much more of an issue is the bribing of schools by that kids dad.

If you factor in the cost of the scholarship...how much $$$ in unpaid benefits do Duke players get? Plane flights, basketball shoes and gear...all the costs associated with running a basketball program. Kanter got all of that, except also housing and food stipends, some weekend party money probably...so that would account for 33k a year figure. Factor in housing and food, and those benefits look mighty weak.

Then again, strictly speaking that would also make him a professional because he is making a living out of basketball.

(i have no knowledge of the situation, and this 100k figure might be NOT including living expenses for all I know)

Lord Ash
09-08-2010, 05:48 AM
The GM specifically said he was paid a salary in the last year, I think at a similar rate to the other players. That is being a professional.

gam7
09-08-2010, 06:01 AM
Perhaps as hard as we/K looked at Corey?

s.i.

Wasn't corey's thing a one-time payment in the neighborhood of $2k? A little different than 100k over a number of years.

Lord Ash
09-08-2010, 07:46 AM
Wasn't corey's thing a one-time payment in the neighborhood of $2k? A little different than 100k over a number of years.

That depends on who you ask; a number of Kentucky people certainly think that it isn't the same, because Enes is actually only getting the equivalent of a scholarship to Oak Hill, and that amount is practically below the poverty line anyway, whereas Maggette was a cheater and Coach K is a well-known cheat who should sacrifice every win from '99 even though the other teams involved with Piggie players only had the players sit a few games.

BTW, this isn't tongue in cheek; this is literally what is being typed on Kentucky message boards, where the longest thread is about Kanter and the second longest, as of last night, was about Maggette. They are, without question, the most bizarre fanbase I've ever seen.

chrisheery
09-08-2010, 08:08 AM
Where was Andy Katz on this story before? He is such a Calapari fanboy that he didn't even look into it. Now, he is doing work? Come on, that's so bush.

OldPhiKap
09-08-2010, 08:11 AM
As much as I would love to pile on Calipari, this doesn't seem to have anything to do with paying a kid to come to the school. If I understand the story right, this kid played on a pro team in Turkey from about age 14 until he came to the states. It doesn't sound like it was a secret. Now, if Cal found out about payments but decided to waste a scholly on him anyway -- that's dumb but not a taint on the school. It's burning a scholarship on an inelligible player.

But, to the extent it suggests that Cal is more interested in the ends than the means -- KY knew that when they hired him.

jv001
09-08-2010, 08:40 AM
As much as I would love to pile on Calipari, this doesn't seem to have anything to do with paying a kid to come to the school. If I understand the story right, this kid played on a pro team in Turkey from about age 14 until he came to the states. It doesn't sound like it was a secret. Now, if Cal found out about payments but decided to waste a scholly on him anyway -- that's dumb but not a taint on the school. It's burning a scholarship on an inelligible player.

But, to the extent it suggests that Cal is more interested in the ends than the means -- KY knew that when they hired him.

One thing that jumped out at me was the GMs comment that he knows Kanter will not be a good student. Sounded like a case of not being a hard worker. Well at Kentucky being a good student is not a requirement. Go Duke!

OldPhiKap
09-08-2010, 09:05 AM
One thing that jumped out at me was the GMs comment that he knows Kanter will not be a good student. Sounded like a case of not being a hard worker. Well at Kentucky being a good student is not a requirement. Go Duke!

D'ya now how many UK fans it takes to change a light bulb?

All of them. One to do it, and the rest to lament how much better the light worked when Adolf Rupp was around. . . .

studdlee10
09-08-2010, 09:28 AM
This looks to be a totally different scenario than the Maggette situation. Maggette took cash money under the table before Duke. How could anybody possibly follow up on that? Kanter took a paid salary from a professional Turkish team. There is evidently proof, which has been provided to the NCAA already. It doesn't seem as if it would have taken Sherlock Holmes to uncover the truth. It seems all the reporter did was ask the question, and Kanter's Turkish team was more than willing to provide the proof.

The fact that Oak Hill, a prospect factory, took a pass is pretty telling. This is exactly the type of thing that Calipari turns a blind eye to that makes him such a shady character. Yes, nothing points to him directly, but the string of events, the Rose SAT cheating, the Bledsoe SAT cheating, the Wall improper benefits, etc...should add up and if USC got busted for "institutional control" for agents paying players then Cal should eventually be busted for institutional control, at the bare minimum. Name me another coach that seems to have such a series of "unlucky" recruiting mishaps come his way. Too bad the NCAA will turn a blind eye and allow Calipari to continue to pull his shenanigans.

flyingdutchdevil
09-08-2010, 09:29 AM
...How does this affect Calipari outside from the fact that his team will be tiny next year?

Calipari didn't do anything wrong with recruiting him, right? (at least that we or the press knows)

Jderf
09-08-2010, 10:03 AM
The fact that Oak Hill, a prospect factory, took a pass is pretty telling. This is exactly the type of thing that Calipari turns a blind eye to that makes him such a shady character. Yes, nothing points to him directly, but the string of events, the Rose SAT cheating, the Bledsoe SAT cheating, the Wall improper benefits, etc...should add up and if USC got busted for "institutional control" for agents paying players then Cal should eventually be busted for institutional control, at the bare minimum. Name me another coach that seems to have such a series of "unlucky" recruiting mishaps come his way. Too bad the NCAA will turn a blind eye and allow Calipari to continue to pull his shenanigans.

I think this list can be improved dramatically: Camby's agent payments; Dajuan Wagner's father earning a temporary job with Memphis basketball; Tyreke even's trainer becoming a Memphis administrative assistant; Rose's fake SAT; Bledsoe's transcript/eligibility issues; the questions surrounding the recent Anthony Davis recruitment; and now this. Once again, nothing you can pin on Calipari (and some of the listed events were perfectly "clean"), but it's hard not to notice where all the arrows are pointing.

Jderf
09-08-2010, 10:07 AM
...How does this affect Calipari outside from the fact that his team will be tiny next year?

Calipari didn't do anything wrong with recruiting him, right? (at least that we or the press knows)

I think it will affect him by finally giving him the chance to show how the dribble-drive offense is so versatile and effective that it can even be applied to a mediocre team and instantly turn it into a final four contender. The season will go down as a coaching masterpiece and Calipari will subsequently be inducted into the pantheon of brilliant NCAA coaches.

Clipsfan
09-08-2010, 10:33 AM
...How does this affect Calipari outside from the fact that his team will be tiny next year?

Calipari didn't do anything wrong with recruiting him, right? (at least that we or the press knows)

It adds to the long list of Calipari turning a blind eye to infractions committed by his players in the interest of having those players on his team. There is no proof that Calipari paid Enes, for example, although there is probably suspicion on that front. Best case for Calipari, this shows that he couldn't have looked into Kanter's background at all before recruiting him. Worst case, he knew Kanter was completely ineligible and flaunted the rules.

Olympic Fan
09-08-2010, 10:43 AM
Let's restrain our enthusiasm here.

This is very disturbing for Kentucky's chances in 2010-11. Kanter was their big hope to have an inside presence to balance all their young guards. Without him, they are way too small.

But long-term, this has no impact on Cal or Kentucky. Kanter was a one-and-done player anyway. Cal has another wave of players coming in next year -- Gilchrist and Davis in the post.

And as it stands there is NO NCAA jeopardy for Cal or Kentucky over this. The worst that could happen is that Kanter will be declared ineligible for the season -- which would ruin Kentucky's 2010-11 season. It's premature to suggest that would happen -- but if the NCAA determines that the info in the linked article is true, that's almost certainly the outcome.

But it won't go beyond that unless Cal is so stupid as to lie to the NCAA or try and stonewall them. Considering how slick he's been in the past, I suspect that's extremely unlikely.

flyingdutchdevil
09-08-2010, 10:50 AM
Let's restrain our enthusiasm here.

This is very disturbing for Kentucky's chances in 2010-11. Kanter was their big hope to have an inside presence to balance all their young guards. Without him, they are way too small.

But long-term, this has no impact on Cal or Kentucky. Kanter was a one-and-done player anyway. Cal has another wave of players coming in next year -- Gilchrist and Davis in the post.

And as it stands there is NO NCAA jeopardy for Cal or Kentucky over this. The worst that could happen is that Kanter will be declared ineligible for the season -- which would ruin Kentucky's 2010-11 season. It's premature to suggest that would happen -- but if the NCAA determines that the info in the linked article is true, that's almost certainly the outcome.

But it won't go beyond that unless Cal is so stupid as to lie to the NCAA or try and stonewall them. Considering how slick he's been in the past, I suspect that's extremely unlikely.

Thanks for the clarification. I guess this will be a "dip" year for Kentucky under Cal...

yancem
09-08-2010, 11:53 AM
This situation does illustrate another danger to recruiting only (or at least mostly) one and done recruits. Not only is the loss of player magnified by the lack of upperclassmen to stabilize the team but you also greatly increase the chances of a player being ruled ineligible. The players most likely to have eligibility issues are the players that are only going to school because they can't enter the draft. This isn't the case for all one and done talents (see Wall, John or Deng, Luol) but if you have someone who doesn't really want to go to school but feels they have no other choice is more likely to take the easy road.

muzikfrk75
09-08-2010, 11:56 AM
“I am sorry for telling this for Enes, but we cannot lie if someone asks the whole story, we cannot hide,” Karakas said.

If the GM himself is saying this, then Kanter's eligibility isn't in doubt anymore in my opinion.

Cal and KY won't get in trouble for this, but my question to Cal is this: why would you recruit someone with 'cloudy paperwork' in the first place?

Lord Ash
09-08-2010, 12:12 PM
Let's restrain our enthusiasm here.

This is very disturbing for Kentucky's chances in 2010-11. Kanter was their big hope to have an inside presence to balance all their young guards. Without him, they are way too small.

But long-term, this has no impact on Cal or Kentucky. Kanter was a one-and-done player anyway. Cal has another wave of players coming in next year -- Gilchrist and Davis in the post.

And as it stands there is NO NCAA jeopardy for Cal or Kentucky over this. The worst that could happen is that Kanter will be declared ineligible for the season -- which would ruin Kentucky's 2010-11 season. It's premature to suggest that would happen -- but if the NCAA determines that the info in the linked article is true, that's almost certainly the outcome.

But it won't go beyond that unless Cal is so stupid as to lie to the NCAA or try and stonewall them. Considering how slick he's been in the past, I suspect that's extremely unlikely.

See, I see it as one more year where we are not as worried about Cal finally reaching the Final Four and possibly winning a title, which is one year closer to him finally getting busted for something big enough to run him out of NCAA basketball, so losing a BIG piece of his 2010-2011 puzzle is a big plus. Cal winning a title would, in some ways, "validate" him in basketball and maybe even push more of his type of recruiting... i.e. teams of one and dones.

BD80
09-08-2010, 02:41 PM
Let's restrain our enthusiasm here.

This is very disturbing for Kentucky's chances in 2010-11. Kanter was their big hope to have an inside presence to balance all their young guards. Without him, they are way too small.

But long-term, this has no impact on Cal or Kentucky. Kanter was a one-and-done player anyway. Cal has another wave of players coming in next year -- Gilchrist and Davis in the post.
And as it stands there is NO NCAA jeopardy for Cal or Kentucky over this. The worst that could happen is that Kanter will be declared ineligible for the season -- which would ruin Kentucky's 2010-11 season. It's premature to suggest that would happen -- but if the NCAA determines that the info in the linked article is true, that's almost certainly the outcome.

But it won't go beyond that unless Cal is so stupid as to lie to the NCAA or try and stonewall them. Considering how slick he's been in the past, I suspect that's extremely unlikely.

Wonder if Gilchrist got the memo about being a post player. I'm pretty sure he sees himself as a wing, as a dribbler in the dribble drive. There is another top 10 PF coming to Ky next year, Wiltjer (or something like that).

In my mind, this drama is wearing down the Ky faithful. They will sell their souls for more championships, but Cal hasn't delivered a championship yet, and it looks like another #1 recruiting class will come and go without hanging a banner. Pressure will mount, and the "cool" factor will fade. There are a lot of proud Ky alumni who will not be patient with this tactic.

Cal is in a difficult position, he will want to downplay expectations this year because he has no post presence, but he can't downplay expectations to the alumni. Frankly, he doesn't have the depth to go small and pressure, so it will be a bad year.

Next year will be very interesting with Gilchrist, Davis, Teague and Wiltjer. If Poole and Lamb stick around for next year it will be a very, very talented team, but I don't know if I see the on floor leadership that it takes to win. If that team crashes early in the tourney as well, I think they will be lighting the torches in Ky.

roywhite
09-08-2010, 02:49 PM
See, I see it as one more year where we are not as worried about Cal finally reaching the Final Four and possibly winning a title, which is one year closer to him finally getting busted for something big enough to run him out of NCAA basketball, so losing a BIG piece of his 2010-2011 puzzle is a big plus. Cal winning a title would, in some ways, "validate" him in basketball and maybe even push more of his type of recruiting... i.e. teams of one and dones.

Like Professor Harold Hill of "Music Man" fame, Cal is one step ahead of the sheriff. He'd love to lead the big parade, but mostly it's self-preservation...on to the next town when things get too hot.

So far, the Lexington locals appear to be more entertained than concerned.

OldPhiKap
09-08-2010, 02:53 PM
In my mind, this drama is wearing down the Ky faithful. They will sell their souls for more championships, but Cal hasn't delivered a championship yet, and it looks like another #1 recruiting class will come and go without hanging a banner. Pressure will mount, and the "cool" factor will fade. There are a lot of proud Ky alumni who will not be patient with this tactic. . . .

If that team crashes early in the tourney as well, I think they will be lighting the torches in Ky.

Especially if Pitino gets Louisville rolling!

Calipari always leaves one step ahead of the posse. Has he ever been thrown out by a school? If so, I can't recall.

Greg_Newton
09-08-2010, 03:36 PM
See, I see it as one more year where we are not as worried about Cal finally reaching the Final Four and possibly winning a title, which is one year closer to him finally getting busted for something big enough to run him out of NCAA basketball, so losing a BIG piece of his 2010-2011 puzzle is a big plus. Cal winning a title would, in some ways, "validate" him in basketball and maybe even push more of his type of recruiting... i.e. teams of one and dones.

Agreed... plus, anything that helps diminish his current aura and hot streak is good. It's entirely possible that UK could miss the tournament and only produce (gasp) 1-2 draft picks this year, possible zero in the lottery!

Also, just think how important this development could make Cal's slimy poaching of T. Jones. Without him, their only two post players would be Josh Harrelson and Eloy Vargas - who averaged 1.3 and 0.0 points in their most recent college seasons, respectively. Even with him, their frontcourt is now in a weaker situation than UNC's. Jones is very good, but he's more a big wing - they'll be very thin and untalented in the post, and I wouldn't expect them to get much scoring down low at all.

Lastly, not that it even needs to be said, but this is a completely different situation than Maggette. Situation A: you're recruiting a American HS kid who plays AAU, and assume he's elligible. Situation B: you're recruiting a European kid who's played professionally for years overseas, who has a shoe deal with Nike, who Oak Hill wouldn't accept because of eligibility issues... and assume he's elligible.

Situation A happens all the time, and you can't really fault the integrity of a program if it later comes out a small amount of money changed hands before the program was involved. Situation B, however, is just asking for trouble... the program knows full well what it's getting into.

Nugget
09-08-2010, 03:50 PM
this doesn't seem to be an instance where he's done anything particularly sleazy.

Recruiting any high-profile foreign player who was part of a club basketball program involves a substantial risk that (i) he or his family may have received some form of payment, (ii) the truth will be extremely murky, and (iii) there will be NCAA eligibility tangles.

This is par for the course, and certainly not an indication of Cal/Kentucky doing anything improper for recruiting advantage.

Indeed, as others noted, there's a bit of a "glass houses" aspect to this criticism of Cal given that the Kanter situation doesn't even approach what happened with Corey/Piggie.

roywhite
09-08-2010, 04:18 PM
this doesn't seem to be an instance where he's done anything particularly sleazy.

Recruiting any high-profile foreign player who was part of a club basketball program involves a substantial risk that (i) he or his family may have received some form of payment, (ii) the truth will be extremely murky, and (iii) there will be NCAA eligibility tangles.

This is par for the course, and certainly not an indication of Cal/Kentucky doing anything improper for recruiting advantage.

Indeed, as others noted, there's a bit of a "glass houses" aspect to this criticism of Cal given that the Kanter situation doesn't even approach what happened with Corey/Piggie.

Not sure what you mean with the Maggette comparison.

The comments so far have been that the Maggette situation involved much less.

Are we doomed to hear Maggette's name every time a Kentucky scandal pops up?

Lord Ash
09-08-2010, 05:54 PM
Oh lord. Seriously? With the amount of times this sort of thing is brought up, I feel like there should be a sticky to clearly explain certain Duke events, like the Maggette situation, and why it is NOTHING like the Kanter situation.

sagegrouse
09-08-2010, 05:56 PM
Indeed, as others noted, there's a bit of a "glass houses" aspect to this criticism of Cal given that the Kanter situation doesn't even approach what happened with Corey/Piggie.


The posts I have read on this thread were basically doing a 'tee-hee' as a top Kentucky recruit runs afoul of the amateur rules. And, of course, they were pulling Cal's chain a bit.

WRT Maggette and Myron Piggie, lets remember there are two orders of magnitude of difference in the amounts (x100) and that the NCAA concluded that Duke was totally unaware that there were some payments beyond expenses. I expect the NCAA will exonerate Kentucky in the Kanter case, but his eligibility would seem to be an open issue.

sagegrouse

Nugget
09-09-2010, 01:22 AM
The posts I have read on this thread were basically doing a 'tee-hee' as a top Kentucky recruit runs afoul of the amateur rules. And, of course, they were pulling Cal's chain a bit.

WRT Maggette and Myron Piggie, lets remember there are two orders of magnitude of difference in the amounts (x100) and that the NCAA concluded that Duke was totally unaware that there were some payments beyond expenses. I expect the NCAA will exonerate Kentucky in the Kanter case, but his eligibility would seem to be an open issue.

sagegrouse

The relevant point is not the dollar amount (in part because much of what is being talked about here is likely the value of in-kind benefits (e.g., housing), but that Corey played in games while (apparently) ineligible, and Duke suffered no consequence.

Last I recall, Kanter hasn't yet suited up for Kentucky in a game.

camion
09-09-2010, 06:41 AM
The relevant point is not the dollar amount (in part because much of what is being talked about here is likely the value of in-kind benefits (e.g., housing), but that Corey played in games while (apparently) ineligible, and Duke suffered no consequence.

Last I recall, Kanter hasn't yet suited up for Kentucky in a game.

Another relevant point is that other players involved with Piggie played for other college teams and those teams also suffered "no consequence." The Duke decision by the NCAA wasn't special handling.

As far as Kentucky is concerned, there is no violation problem for them in this case as far as I can see. From an NCAA viewpoint it's Kanter's problem, not Kentucky's.

Duvall
09-09-2010, 07:23 AM
The relevant point is not the dollar amount (in part because much of what is being talked about here is likely the value of in-kind benefits (e.g., housing), but that Corey played in games while (apparently) ineligible, and Duke suffered no consequence.

Last I recall, Kanter hasn't yet suited up for Kentucky in a game.

That's certainly relevant to determining whether Kentucky should be sanctioned, but it's not the only relevant point in assessing Calipari's conduct. Another important difference between Kanter and Maggette is that it was widely known last year, well before Kanter arrived on campus, that his Turkish team was claiming that he was paid as a professional. While the NYT story might be the first time that an actual dollar figure made it into the press, the allegations were common knowledge. That simply wasn't true with Maggette.

sagegrouse
09-09-2010, 08:30 AM
The relevant point is not the dollar amount (in part because much of what is being talked about here is likely the value of in-kind benefits (e.g., housing), but that Corey played in games while (apparently) ineligible, and Duke suffered no consequence.

Last I recall, Kanter hasn't yet suited up for Kentucky in a game.

I don't believe Corey Maggette was ever declared "ineligible" by the NCAA.

sagegrouse

Lord Ash
09-09-2010, 08:36 AM
First off, I don't think anyone here is saying Kentucky as a University did something wrong, or should be penalized.

Second, I DO think there are people here who think Calipari knew about the payments but hoped to keep Kanter eligible.

Lastly, your comparison to the Maggette situation is completely and totally off-base.

A) Maggette played at Duke; Kanter has not played at Kentucky.

B) Kanter played for a professional team; Maggette did not.

C) Kanter was paid apparently a GREAT deal of money; Maggette was paid a 50th of that.

D) People have been saying Kanter may have been paid for a while; no one had any idea on Maggette until he was in the NBA.

Given all of this, and more, I have no idea how you think there is a comparison between the situations, other than they both involve basketball players and eligibility. Any real Duke fan should know this, and should know why NONE of the group of schools who played players who were paid by Piggie were penalized.

hq2
09-09-2010, 09:33 AM
Folks, this all sounds like typical Calipari. He's gotten all of this down to a science over the years. He knows exactly how to recruit questionable players while simultaneously positioning himself so that he can deny any knowledge of what's going on. It's what he did the last two times, and he's at it again. I doubt if they'll nail the slippery (deleted) this time, but who knows; if the NCAA keeps trying, they may get him eventually. But, he'll probably skip town ahead of the posse this time too.

Duvall
09-09-2010, 09:50 AM
Folks, this all sounds like typical Calipari. He's gotten all of this down to a science over the years. He knows exactly how to recruit questionable players while simultaneously positioning himself so that he can deny any knowledge of what's going on. It's what he did the last two times, and he's at it again. I doubt if they'll nail the slippery (deleted) this time, but who knows; if the NCAA keeps trying, they may get him eventually. But, he'll probably skip town ahead of the posse this time too.

Yep. Calipari doesn't have to cheat himself - he just has to make sure it's understood that he's not going to ask any questions if the people in and around his program cheat. He doesn't twist arms to get his players into school, he just looks the other way when they produce improbable fake transcripts and SAT scores, or attend the same diploma mill. He doesn't have to make payments to players, he just looks the other way when they take large sums of money from agents and runners. And when it looks like the NCAA might finally step in, he can always find another school to sign on for the ride and let his successor deal with the consequences.

Jderf
09-09-2010, 12:16 PM
Yep. Calipari doesn't have to cheat himself - he just has to make sure it's understood that he's not going to ask any questions if the people in and around his program cheat. He doesn't twist arms to get his players into school, he just looks the other way when they produce improbable fake transcripts and SAT scores, or attend the same diploma mill. He doesn't have to make payments to players, he just looks the other way when they take large sums of money from agents and runners. And when it looks like the NCAA might finally step in, he can always find another school to sign on for the ride and let his successor deal with the consequences.

To be honest, I don't really know all the rules too well, but doesn't the NCAA also typically take action when people execute a "lack of institutional control?" Why has this not been the case with Calipari, whereas coaches like Calhoun have gotten in trouble for it? Just wondering.

OldPhiKap
09-09-2010, 12:33 PM
To be honest, I don't really know all the rules too well, but doesn't the NCAA also typically take action when people execute a "lack of institutional control?" Why has this not been the case with Calipari, whereas coaches like Calhoun have gotten in trouble for it? Just wondering.

It sounds like the overseas coach is dying to tell all he knows to whomever will listen. So we should be able to find out what inquiries, if any, were made by KY and who made those calls.

SoCalDukeFan
09-09-2010, 12:55 PM
This player has not played or even practiced with Calipari yet.

I suppose that KY could investigate and declare the player ineligible and then there would no punishment for KY or Cal. Failure to investigate properly could be a problem if they let him play.

KY may have to more than ask the player, his family, and NIKE if everything is okay.

SoCal

jjh1080
09-09-2010, 01:04 PM
I'm confused, does the NCAA rules talk about the amount of money relating to the size of the penalty? I believe it doesn't matter if Corey only got $2,000 and Kanter got $100,000; the penalty would be the same had they both played for a college team and then the NCAA found out about the money thing.

Kentucky nor Cali will be in any trouble over this; Kanter hasn't played a game for Kentucky so there is no violation that affects either Cali or Kentucky.

What it does do is it puts another cloud over Cali. He has had similar issues with other players and this is just another case. I'm sure Cali asked Kanter and Kanter assured Cali he was clean. The issue is Cali should have done some extensive research into the kid since a prep / high school already denied the kid because of similar issues and he knew the kid played for a pro team. Cali should have known this was going to be a problem and made sure it wasn't before he offered the kid or at least offered and did the research. It appears he took his chances that the NCAA would not investigate or find anything if they did.

Just another case of Cali looking like a slim ball. My guess, he wanted to coach Kanter to show others that he could coach a pro player and not potential pro players. In the end, what is shows is that Cali is doing what ever he can to get the attention of the pro owners, he wants a pro job bad.

No violation, no penalty just looking like the slim ball he is. In the end the pie will be in Kentucky's face, they too should have known, this guy was going to mare their school up.

Remember, his graduation rate is going to be terrible. The one and done's this year will not come back and graduate, there are a few on this year's team (Knight and Jones) that will be one and done's and next year has at least 3 one and done's. Cali is not looking to stick around for too many years at Kentucky, his actions are telling us that. Kentucky will be left with the graduate rate issue.

SCMatt33
09-09-2010, 01:20 PM
I think that its outrageous that violations in terms of UK are actually being discussed. The way I see it, the Kanter situation is a great example of how the NCAA eligibility system is supposed to work. The NCAA has limited resources to thoroughly check the backrounds of players, so they can't exactly go dig into everyone's past and put out a list of ineligible players before they sign. They instead wait for players to sign, identify those with questionable backgrounds and then investigate, while the school holds that player out until a decision is made.

Yes, Cal recurited a player with questionable eligibility. The key word in that sentence is questionable. All we know for sure right now is that the guy with the most to gain from Kanter being declared ineligible says that he was paid. The only way that the school should be punished in a situation like this is if the school contributed to his becoming ineligible, i.e. payments from a booster or actively providing contact with agents. All UK has done in this situation is offer him a scholarship, which is exactly the same thing that Washington did, BTW. They haven't allowed to take part in official basketball activities, because they are waiting on the NCAA, just like their supposed to.

If the NCAA gets in the mood of punishing a school for associating with a prospect with questionable eligibility who turned out to be ineligible, then they will create an atmosphere where any player with somewhat questionable eligibility is untouchable, even though many of those players may, in fact, turn out to be eligible. The only way to give those kids a chance is to let the recruiting process play itself out, and then figure out the rest before he suits up.

Just to be clear that this isn't me taking a soft stance on Calipari, my hate for him goes back to being a little kid watching Philadelphia media coverage of John Chaney's well known feud with Cal, which as an impressionable kid, greatly shaped my opinion of Cal. I still wish to this day that Chaney, now nearing 80, will show up on Cal's doorstep with a bunch of his former players as "goons" and kick his I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. like he promised (before anybody accuses me of promoting violence, I don't actually think that should happen, but do find the image of Cal getting his I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. beat and Chaney standing over him laughing quite hilarious). I will be the first to step up to the plate when Cal really deserves it. This time, he does not.

Jderf
09-09-2010, 01:31 PM
I think that its outrageous that violations in terms of UK are actually being discussed. The way I see it, the Kanter situation is a great example of how the NCAA eligibility system is supposed to work. The NCAA has limited resources to thoroughly check the backrounds of players, so they can't exactly go dig into everyone's past and put out a list of ineligible players before they sign. They instead wait for players to sign, identify those with questionable backgrounds and then investigate, while the school holds that player out until a decision is made.

Yes, Cal recurited a player with questionable eligibility. The key word in that sentence is questionable. All we know for sure right now is that the guy with the most to gain from Kanter being declared ineligible says that he was paid. The only way that the school should be punished in a situation like this is if the school contributed to his becoming ineligible, i.e. payments from a booster or actively providing contact with agents. All UK has done in this situation is offer him a scholarship, which is exactly the same thing that Washington did, BTW. They haven't allowed to take part in official basketball activities, because they are waiting on the NCAA, just like their supposed to.

If the NCAA gets in the mood of punishing a school for associating with a prospect with questionable eligibility who turned out to be ineligible, then they will create an atmosphere where any player with somewhat questionable eligibility is untouchable, even though many of those players may, in fact, turn out to be eligible. The only way to give those kids a chance is to let the recruiting process play itself out, and then figure out the rest before he suits up.

Just to be clear that this isn't me taking a soft stance on Calipari, my hate for him goes back to being a little kid watching Philadelphia media coverage of John Chaney's well known feud with Cal, which as an impressionable kid, greatly shaped my opinion of Cal. I still wish to this day that Chaney, now nearing 80, will show up on Cal's doorstep with a bunch of his former players as "goons" and kick his I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. like he promised (before anybody accuses me of promoting violence, I don't actually think that should happen, but do find the image of Cal getting his I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. beat and Chaney standing over him laughing quite hilarious). I will be the first to step up to the plate when Cal really deserves it. This time, he does not.

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that neither UK nor Calipari are going to suffer anything here (except for potentially losing their top recruit of the season). My question was more just being curious about other Calipari incidents.

BD80
09-09-2010, 01:39 PM
... Just to be clear that this isn't me taking a soft stance on Calipari, my hate for him goes back to being a little kid watching Philadelphia media coverage of John Chaney's well known feud with Cal, which as an impressionable kid, greatly shaped my opinion of Cal. I still wish to this day that Chaney, now nearing 80, will show up on Cal's doorstep with a bunch of his former players as "goons" and kick his as$ like he promised (before anybody accuses me of promoting violence, I don't actually think that should happen, but do find the image of Cal getting his as$ beat and Chaney standing over him laughing quite hilarious). I will be the first to step up to the plate when Cal really deserves it. This time, he does not.

You must have been too young to get a read on John Chaney if you think he would allow his former players to touch Cal. Even to this day, Chaney would be the one kicking Cal's as$. And Cal knows it!

SCMatt33
09-09-2010, 01:46 PM
I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that neither UK nor Calipari are going to suffer anything here (except for potentially losing their top recruit of the season). My question was more just being curious about other Calipari incidents.

While most people here think that he isn't going to suffer anything, there is split sentiment as to whether he should by virtue of this adding on to the pile. I'm supporting the side that this shouldn't be anywhere near the pile, and I'm surprised that this point is somewhat in doubt.

sagegrouse
09-09-2010, 01:51 PM
I'm confused, does the NCAA rules talk about the amount of money relating to the size of the penalty? I believe it doesn't matter if Corey only got $2,000 and Kanter got $100,000; the penalty would be the same had they both played for a college team and then the NCAA found out about the money thing.

.

I believe money does matter and so does intent. Kanter allegedly played and was paid as a professional athlete and that was his intent. Maggette received a few bucks beyond expenses while a member of an AAU team. I believe one could be found permanently ineligible and the other, had it been known at the time, would have had to pay the money back and sit for a few games.

sagegrouse

hq2
09-09-2010, 01:53 PM
I still wish to this day that Chaney, now nearing 80, will show up on Cal's doorstep with a bunch of his former players as "goons"

Didn't Chaney actually say on TV he was going to kill him? But hey, now that we know more about Calipari, now we know why!

94duke
09-09-2010, 02:00 PM
Didn't Chaney actually say on TV he was going to kill him? But hey, now that we know more about Calipari, now we know why!

Yes, he did.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6jUpHClybQ

OldPhiKap
09-09-2010, 02:03 PM
Didn't Chaney actually say on TV he was going to kill him? But hey, now that we know more about Calipari, now we know why!

Chaney burst into one of Cal's post-game press conferences and made that threat IIRC. I'm sure it's on Youtube somewhere. Chaney was absolutely unhinged.

enick66
09-09-2010, 02:18 PM
While most people here think that he isn't going to suffer anything, there is split sentiment as to whether he should by virtue of this adding on to the pile. I'm supporting the side that this shouldn't be anywhere near the pile, and I'm surprised that this point is somewhat in doubt.

What you neglect to mention in your posts are that virtually everyone involved with Kanter knew he was a professional and stayed away from him for that reason. Just because Washington also offered him a scholarship when they shouldn't have doesn't mean that Kentucky/Calipari takes no blame here.

I agree with earlier posters who discussed Calipari's cocoon of deniability. He says, "I checked with him, his family, and with Nike, and none said that Kanter got paid." That is ridiculous. He played for a professional team for 4 years. Why wouldn't you check with the general manager of that team? While it may be in the general manager's best interests for Kanter to be ineligible, it is negligent not to check with the team on Kanter's amateur status, especially when Calipari has the history he does with ineligible players at UMass and Memphis that stripped him of NCAA Tournament appearances.

4decadedukie
09-09-2010, 02:50 PM
A few posts ago, Sage indicated that "intent matters to the NCAA." I wholeheartedly agree. Further, values, attitude and HISTORY are also critical to the NCAA. Calipari's documented reputation is to nominally dissociate himself from questionable and/or illicit behavior, much like a Mafioso in the Godfather, and then to claim ignorance of things he either knew or -- just as vital -- HE HAD THE CLEAR OVERSIGHT RESPONSIBILITY TO RECOGNIZE. When criticized, Cal claims unawareness and suggest that is synonymous with innocence; plainly, it is not. Thus far, he has barely escaped (although vacating UMass and Memphis Final Four participation is certainly public condemnation) and Kentucky has embraced him as their “shortcut savior” to return to former-glory.

In the long-term – and perhaps not too much longer – this simply will not work. Calipari is an embarrassment to collegiate basketball and a growing malignancy for UK (and its fans, boosters, leadership, alumni, and so forth). I have no idea if the Kanter issue will be the catalyst that undermines Calipari. However, I am sure it will be another adverse element is a tapestry of highly questionable behavior, leadership and ethics that will eventually cause the NCAA and/or the University of Kentucky to sanction Calipari severely. In addition, I doubt if too many reputable universities will be willing to risk having their reputations sullied by hiring Cal, once UK is adduced to the “debacle list” of UMass and Memphis.

SCMatt33
09-09-2010, 03:03 PM
What you neglect to mention in your posts are that virtually everyone involved with Kanter knew he was a professional and stayed away from him for that reason. Just because Washington also offered him a scholarship when they shouldn't have doesn't mean that Kentucky/Calipari takes no blame here.

I agree with earlier posters who discussed Calipari's cocoon of deniability. He says, "I checked with him, his family, and with Nike, and none said that Kanter got paid." That is ridiculous. He played for a professional team for 4 years. Why wouldn't you check with the general manager of that team? While it may be in the general manager's best interests for Kanter to be ineligible, it is negligent not to check with the team on Kanter's amateur status, especially when Calipari has the history he does with ineligible players at UMass and Memphis that stripped him of NCAA Tournament appearances.

Can you honestly say that 6 months ago, when Kanter committed, that anyone knew his status 100% one way or the other? Because even if there was only a one in a million chance that he would be declared eligible, you have to let him go through the process and have his chance. All we know now is speculation and random quotes. No one knows anything for sure, which is why no one related to the eligibility process has commented as to his potential status. I don't think that its negligent to track down a guy half way across the world, when you know that the NCAA will do it for you later. He harms no one else by doing this. If anything it only does a disservice to UK by committing to a player who may not be available. Even if Cal had gone to the guy, and he says that Kanter was paid, is he supposed to just give up on him. Without any documentation behind it, I'd want to find the facts if I have conflicting stories. Since most of the evidence is in Turkey, that process could take awhile so you sign him anyway and you can go back on it later. If you let him go, it's over, whether he was eligible or not.

4decadedukie
09-09-2010, 03:43 PM
A few posts ago, Sage indicated that "intent matters to the NCAA.” I wholeheartedly agree. Further, values, attitude and HISTORY are also quite important. Calipari's documented reputation is nominally to dissociate himself from questionable and/or illicit behavior, much like a Mafioso in the Godfather, and then to claim ignorance of things he either knew or -- just as vital -- HE HAD THE CLEAR OVERSIGHT RESPONSIBILITY TO RECOGNIZE. When criticized, Cal claims unawareness and suggest that is synonymous with innocence; plainly, it is not. Thus far, he has barely escaped (although vacating UMass and Memphis Final Four participation is certainly public condemnation) and Kentucky has embraced him as their “shortcut savior” to return to its former-glory.

In the long-term – and perhaps not too much longer – this simply will not work. Calipari is an embarrassment to collegiate basketball and a growing malignancy for UK (and its fans, boosters, leadership, political supporters, alumni, and so forth). I have no idea if the Kanter issue will be the catalyst that undermines Calipari. However, I am sure it will be another adverse element in a tapestry of highly questionable behavior, leadership and ethics that will eventually cause the NCAA and/or the University of Kentucky to sanction Calipari severely. In addition, I doubt if too many reputable universities will be willing to risk having their reputations significantly sullied by hiring Cal, once UK is added to UMass and Memphis on the Calipari “debacle list."

Mods: Please remove post #55, which had too many typos and is replaced with this post. Thank you.

BD80
09-09-2010, 04:02 PM
Can you honestly say that 6 months ago, when Kanter committed, that anyone knew his status 100% one way or the other? ...

Kanter did.

Actually, a LOT of people did. The question is whether he would get caught. I think it was Parrish at CBS who quoted someone familiar with Euro basketball as saying Kanter should be "ineligible for life." (Of course, a pro IS ineligible for life) Point is, Kanter has been a pro for three years. It strains credulity for a kid to play in the pros for three years in Europe and maintain an amateur status.

Kanter KNOWS he does not belong in the NCAA, and yet he signed anyway, on the chance the NCAA can't prove he was a paid professional, or that if he was paid, how much for how long. That is dishonest. To claim to be an amateur when you are not is fraud.

Calipari very well knows that Kanter lied when claiming to be an amateur. It is also fraud to allow him to try to play for KY.

For Polly and Anna who want to trot out an "innocent until proven guilty" dog and pony show - this is where the "common knowledge" in the European circuit is so telling. This is like Cal signing LeBron to play. Does Cal know for certain LeBron took money as a pro? A lot of people say he did, and his GM says he paid him, but does Cal have direct knowledge? Just as Cal knows that LeBron is a pro, he knows Kanter is a pro. Why make the NCAA pay to investigate something so commonly known? Why take the one in a million chance that the NCAA gets it wrong and lets Kanter play?

Kanter doesn't belong in an amateur association and any attempt to get him to play is wrong.

G man
09-09-2010, 05:29 PM
Uk is in trouble they needed this guy. If Kanter is not eligible they will be hurting. They lost three bigs to the draft. They may have the best freshmen coming in, but it makes do difference if you cannot protect the rim or rebound the ball. I doubt they win the SEC this year.

BD80
09-10-2010, 11:47 AM
More from Goodman:

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/Kentucky-coach-John-Calipari-had-to-know-controversy-was-coming-with-Enes-Kanter-090810

My favorite part:


Calipari told the Sporting News back in April that Kanter didn’t receive any money.

[GM] Karakas, on the other hand, told The Times that it provided housing for more than three years, food and pocket money and also paid Kanter a salary of more than $6,500 a month during his final season. Karakas said the club gave Kanter and his family between $100,000 to $150,000, beginning when Kanter was 14.

Kanter’s so-called advisor, Max Ergul, compared Kanter receiving the alleged $100,000 or more to being given a scholarship to a prep school. However, there is a major difference: Prep schools don’t hand over cash.

OldPhiKap
09-10-2010, 12:03 PM
More from Goodman:

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/Kentucky-coach-John-Calipari-had-to-know-controversy-was-coming-with-Enes-Kanter-090810

My favorite part:

To be fair, he wasn't being paid in Dollars. The Turkish Lira ain't what it used to be.

http://http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.travelturkeymag.com/guide/assets/pic_turkishmoney.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.travelturkeymag.com/guide/newlira.asp&h=243&w=250&sz=13&tbnid=tmzjFJj42dEVUM:&tbnh=108&tbnw=111&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dturkish%2Blira%2Bimages&zoom=1&q=turkish+lira+images&usg=__I-vbP89SF_DjgHLT3hap8A7fIPo=&sa=X&ei=72SKTP_cMoT68Ab1kuiECg&ved=0CB8Q9QEwAg