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JasonEvans
08-31-2010, 12:11 PM
Interesting note (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/UConn-in-trouble-with-loss-of-Majok-scholarships?urn=ncaab-266193#remaining-content) from Yahoo today. Not the stuff about Majok, the stuff about scholarships.


UConn is expected to formally announce on Friday its response to the allegations the NCAA put on the school in the wake of the Nate Miles controversy. With that around the corner, it's possible Chol's tweet is a sign of things to come, that UConn will wave the white flag and surrender multiple scholarships in 2011.

Chol is a top 100 center prospect from San Diego who is looking at Kansas, GTown, UConn and others. Someone asked him about UConn and his twitter response was:


they lost all there scholorships

Yikes!

--Jason "twitter is not the SAT ;) " Evans

Lord Ash
08-31-2010, 12:20 PM
Wow. That is BRUTAL. A bit of a death knell for UConn... or at least a coma knell for a few years, although that doesn't sound quite as poetic.

It is crazy times when that news comes out in a poorly-worded tweet from someone not even associated with the university... ahhh, social media!

devildeac
08-31-2010, 12:49 PM
Duke curse?

Nah, couldn't be...


:rolleyes:;)

superdave
08-31-2010, 01:08 PM
So if UConn loses 3 scholarships in 2011, they'd basically skip a year of recruiting and could bounce back with a 6-7 man class. Is that how this would play out practically?

uh_no
08-31-2010, 01:21 PM
So if UConn loses 3 scholarships in 2011, they'd basically skip a year of recruiting and could bounce back with a 6-7 man class. Is that how this would play out practically?

i'm not sure I see a 3 scholly loss.....how many scholarships did wisconsin lose in a scandal of similar proportions?

jjh1080
08-31-2010, 02:15 PM
Depends on the wording of the penalty.

If they "loose" a scholarship, they loose it. They won't pick it up the next year. Sometimes they just reduce the scholarships they can offer for a year or two. In that case, I believe, they would be able to pick up the scholarship the next year or two.

Don't get to excited about a major college loosing a scholarship or two, they have alumni who offer scholarships to replace the lost athletic ones.

It all depends on how they word the penalty.

OldPhiKap
08-31-2010, 02:52 PM
Depends on the wording of the penalty.

If they "loose" a scholarship, they loose it. They won't pick it up the next year. Sometimes they just reduce the scholarships they can offer for a year or two. In that case, I believe, they would be able to pick up the scholarship the next year or two.

Don't get to excited about a major college loosing a scholarship or two, they have alumni who offer scholarships to replace the lost athletic ones.

It all depends on how they word the penalty.

If their scholarships are getting loose, sounds like they better tighten up on recruiting. ;>)

Kedsy
08-31-2010, 03:02 PM
Don't get to excited about a major college loosing a scholarship or two, they have alumni who offer scholarships to replace the lost athletic ones.

I don't know the nuts and bolts of recruiting regulations, but this doesn't make sense to me. If alumni were allowed to "offer scholarships" then Kentucky would have 20 or more scholarships to give every year. Something's missing from this analysis.

Also, and I'm not trying to be overly snippy, but it's "losing," not "loosing," unless you're talking about untying a knot.

Dukeface88
08-31-2010, 03:46 PM
I don't know the nuts and bolts of recruiting regulations, but this doesn't make sense to me. If alumni were allowed to "offer scholarships" then Kentucky would have 20 or more scholarships to give every year. Something's missing from this analysis.

Also, and I'm not trying to be overly snippy, but it's "losing," not "loosing," unless you're talking about untying a knot.

Yeah, I can't see how you could possibly be allowed to "make up" lost scholarships that way. Not only would that make a mockery of the enforcement system (well, more so than currently), it would completely circumvent the scholarship limits already in place.

On the other hand, I'm not sure how that's enforced. Are there rules about athletic scholarships taking precendence over academic/need-based scholarships in the same way that a football scholarship takes precendence over a basketball one? What happens if someone with a non-athletic schollarship joins a team as a walk-on?

MChambers
08-31-2010, 03:55 PM
I don't know the nuts and bolts of recruiting regulations, but this doesn't make sense to me. If alumni were allowed to "offer scholarships" then Kentucky would have 20 or more scholarships to give every year. Something's missing from this analysis.

Also, and I'm not trying to be overly snippy, but it's "losing," not "loosing," unless you're talking about untying a knot.

Seems to me that the poster's tongue was firmly buried in his cheek. Perhaps I am wrong.

jjh1080
08-31-2010, 11:17 PM
Sorry about the loosing vs losing, was in a hurry when I typed it up.

There are some ties with the scholarships from alumni. The alumni are giving to scholarships all over the country, all the time. Many top colleges have alumni funds that go to sports only folks. The college I went to would not give many full scholarships to many football players because of an alumni fund that was set up for athletics only. This way they could give twice as many (partial) scholarships and the rest was paid for with the alumni funded scholarships. I got them my freshman and sophomore year. Once I became a junior (starter) I got a full ride. I believe for football we got about 60 scholarships, 35 went to full rides and 50 partial rides. Those 50 that got partial rides got alumni scholarships. The alumni office controlled the funds (did the fundraising) and did all the paper work to keep it straight and legal. Word was that the college had about 5 big givers who would come up with some extra donations anytime extra funds were needed. Here is an interesting thing, the college got donations to help provide tutors for students. Take a wild guess who used the tutors the most. But the funding was all legit and they ran a legit program, the money went to tutors. That is all I'll say about that.

The whole point is, the big time colleges can get around just about anything they want to when it comes to things like this. I've heard that "walk-ons", the guys who sit way at the end of the bench, usually end up getting some sort of scholarship for making the basketball team. I'm sure they keep it all legit, there are ways to work around things. Everything is like a tax code, you create the law and someone will find a way around it.

Kedsy
08-31-2010, 11:30 PM
Sorry about the loosing vs losing, was in a hurry when I typed it up.

There are some ties with the scholarships from alumni. The alumni are giving to scholarships all over the country, all the time. Many top colleges have alumni funds that go to sports only folks. The college I went to would not give many full scholarships to many football players because of an alumni fund that was set up for athletics only. This way they could give twice as many (partial) scholarships and the rest was paid for with the alumni funded scholarships. I got them my freshman and sophomore year. Once I became a junior (starter) I got a full ride. I believe for football we got about 60 scholarships, 35 went to full rides and 50 partial rides. Those 50 that got partial rides got alumni scholarships. The alumni office controlled the funds (did the fundraising) and did all the paper work to keep it straight and legal. Word was that the college had about 5 big givers who would come up with some extra donations anytime extra funds were needed. Here is an interesting thing, the college got donations to help provide tutors for students. Take a wild guess who used the tutors the most. But the funding was all legit and they ran a legit program, the money went to tutors. That is all I'll say about that.

The whole point is, the big time colleges can get around just about anything they want to when it comes to things like this. I've heard that "walk-ons", the guys who sit way at the end of the bench, usually end up getting some sort of scholarship for making the basketball team. I'm sure they keep it all legit, there are ways to work around things. Everything is like a tax code, you create the law and someone will find a way around it.

I'll accept all this is true, and it probably saves the school money, but I still have to believe there's a limit to how many people on the team can have any kind of scholarship; otherwise the scholarship limit is a complete sham. But I don't know for certain, and I don't have the inclination to go through the NCAA rule book to figure it out.

94duke
09-01-2010, 12:31 AM
I'll accept all this is true, and it probably saves the school money, but I still have to believe there's a limit to how many people on the team can have any kind of scholarship; otherwise the scholarship limit is a complete sham. But I don't know for certain, and I don't have the inclination to go through the NCAA rule book to figure it out.

I believe you are correct, but I don't have a rulebook to check.
However, I remember when we recruited Lee Melchionni, there were not enough scholarships to give him one his freshman year (IIR). He could not accept another scholarship either. His family paid for his freshman year.
Anyone else remember it happening this way?

jjh1080
09-01-2010, 08:05 AM
Here's another story. We had a guy who was a brain and really liked accounting. There was an alumni who gave a scholarship for anyone who wanted to go into accounting and attend our college, did it for years. All you had to do was write an essay and the alumni selected the candidate. The brain had good grades (all A's except 2 in high school and they were in hard classes, advanced calc and advanced physics. We got a late commitment after all the scholarships were handed out (late March) and they really wanted this late commitment. The deadline for the alumni accounting scholarship was about mid-April and final word would come in mid-May on who got his scholarship. Guess who got the scholarship? And guess who got the last football scholarship that year? This brain got the alumni accounting scholarship for 2 years. A few years later, an incoming hockey player got the alumni accounting scholarship, and all the hockey scholarships were given out that year. It all appears on the up and up. This happened over 20 years ago, but some time back I was at one of our basketball games (ladies game was first). There was a guy sitting next to the guys coach in the first half of the ladies game, word is that was the guy who gave the alumni accounting scholarship.

You can't make it look obvious but there are ways around these things. Like I said, you create a tax law and someone will find a way around it.

gw67
09-01-2010, 08:41 AM
It is my understanding that there are strict limits on athletic scholarships for each college sport. Off the top of my head, they are 85 for football, 13 for basketball and 12.7 for baseball. I think that it is rare to have partial scholarships in football and baseball (Perhaps not even allowed?) but it is very common and necessary in baseball. The Div-1 baseball teams are made up of a combination of full scholarship players, partial scholarship players and walk ons. The total number "athletic" scholarships cannot exceed 12.7.

The business of who sponsors the scholarship is a completely different matter. The basketball scholarships at Duke are probably worth $50-60,000 a piece and that takes a chunk out of the school's athletic budget. Coach K, a few years back, was trying to get folks to give money to cover a scholarship. My cousin's daughter's husband played baseball at Stanford a few years back and it was his understanding that every athletic scholarship at Stanford was backed in total by donations. The only way an Alum can buy an additional scholarship is in a situation where the school can only afford so many scolarships (less than the limit) and the Alum bellies up to the bar to sponsor one or more but not exceeding the total team limit. There may be exceptions in some of the minor sports but I doubt it.

There are a bunch of funny scholarship rules, particularly those governing two sport athletes (football coaches used to get additional players by using track scholies, etc.) A couple of thoughts re Duke. Indeed, Melchionni's parents paid for his freshman year because the Devils were at the limit. Also, Trajan played professional baseball while at Duke and was not on scholarship for at least a couple of the years he played for the Devils.

gw67

OldPhiKap
09-01-2010, 08:50 AM
I remember when we recruited Lee Melchionni, there were not enough scholarships to give him one his freshman year (IIR). He could not accept another scholarship either. His family paid for his freshman year.
Anyone else remember it happening this way?

I believe this is correct. I also recall that Trajan went to Duke on a baseball scholarship, or was somehow underwritten by the Padres. Getting a little fuzzy as time goes by.

jjh1080
09-01-2010, 09:01 AM
Here is a great example of an alumni offering.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/05/sports/ncaafootball/05okstate.html?_r=1

The guy has given over $485 million to a one college and over half of that has gone to athletics.

The problem with the NCAA rules, is they are like any other laws, there are always ways to get around them.

How can a college hire a father as part of their program, just before the kid plays his first game for the college, and the day the kid leaves the school the father doesn't work there any more? Isn't that some sort of rules violation? I think they found a way around a rule.

sagegrouse
09-01-2010, 09:50 AM
The legendary 19th Century economist (1842-1924) who went beyond Adam Smith (1723-1790) in codifying the concepts of "supply" and "demand."

The "demand" for athletes is the affordable number of athletic scholarships, which represents the lesser of (a) the NCAA limits or (b) the amount the institution can afford, partial scholarships included. No matter how generous the alumni are, there is no way a Div. I institution*** can have more than 82 on football scholarship or 13 on basketball scholarship. Since these are revenue sports, almost everyone offers the maximum. Extra donations by alumni or others make the athletic programs better financed, but do not practically change the number of scholarship athletes in these two sports.

In the "Olympic" sports, the scholarships are highly dependent on institutional support or donors. And, of course, there are rules for counting scholarships for two-sport athletes. If your wide receiver is also a candidate for world's fastest human, he still counts against the football limit. As another poster indicated, Stanford, the heart of Silicon Valley, has endowed about everything in athletics. This is also Duke's ambition, not yet nearly achieved.

The supply of ahtletes represents the "prices" at which various athletes are willing to commit to a school. (No, I am not about to go to UK-type subjects.) Since the monetary transaction is fixed by the NCAA, the price must include the value of intangibles about athletics, academics, and social life.

sagegrouse
***Except for the service academies, which are an interesting exception.
'Egad, this post seems really pretentious. Oh, well....'