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View Full Version : Huge LAX news... we may be very, very, very good next year!!



JasonEvans
05-30-2007, 01:47 PM
The NCAA just granted Duke's appeal giving every member of last year's team an extra year of elligibilty. Still getting all the details, but I think this means that all the seniors on this year's team that wants to come back and play again would be allowed to.

More in a minute!!

-Jason

JasonEvans
05-30-2007, 01:50 PM
Wow-- who needs recruits. Our entire senior class just got an extra year of elligibility!!!!! All seniors are juniors, all juniors are sophs, all sophs are freshman.


RALEIGH, N.C. (AP) -- The NCAA on Wednesday granted Duke's
request for an extra year of eligibility for its men's lacrosse
players following a rape scandal that led to the cancellation of
much of last season.

Duke played just eight games in 2006 before the university
canceled what was left of the season as police investigated
allegations a woman was raped at a team party.

Three players were later indicted, but the accusations were
eventually debunked by North Carolina's top prosecutor, who called
the trio "innocent" victims of a "tragic rush to accuse."

The waiver affects all players who were not seniors during the
'06 season, and it grants them a fifth year of eligibility
regardless of whether they play at Duke or another school.

The announcement comes just two days after the Blue Devils
(17-3) lost to Johns Hopkins 12-11 in the NCAA championship game.

Essentially, this means that if they want the entire team could come back for next season.

-Jason "I am shocked the NCAA took this action so quickly (Duke only petitioned like a week or two ago) and so much in Duke's favor" Evans

DevilAlumna
05-30-2007, 01:59 PM
That's great news for Reade and Collin as well, considering they essentially had two seasons taken away. I hope they have great LAX careers with their new teams. (Though of course, if they play Duke, we know who to cheer for.)

GopherBlue
05-30-2007, 02:04 PM
Wow. . . .

How many seniors does this ruling directly affect?

Of course, this ruling would seem to have implications for the next several years, as the juniors, and sophs will face the 5th year option in the future. As few players receive significant athletic scholarship support, year 5 may be difficult to justify from a financial perspective.

. . . . wow.

JasonEvans
05-30-2007, 02:08 PM
Wow. . . .

How many seniors does this ruling directly affect?

Of course, this ruling would seem to have implications for the next several years, as the juniors, sophs, and frosh will face the 5th year option in the future. As few players receive significant athletic scholarship support, year 5 may be difficult to justify from a financial perspective.

. . . . wow.

Note-- this would not affect current freshmen. It only applies to players who were on the team that got the season cancelled in 2006.

-Jason "we lost 3 first team All-Americans to graduation and lost goalie Loftus (3rd team A-A) as well... would those guys come back to go for that elusive national title?" Evans

Mike Corey
05-30-2007, 02:08 PM
From the NCAA:


INDIANAPOLIS -- The NCAA student-athlete reinstatement staff has granted a season-of-competition waiver to 33 student-athletes who participated on the Duke University men’s lacrosse team during the 2006 season. The waiver was requested by Duke University for all men’s lacrosse student-athletes who were not seniors during the 2006 season.

The waiver provides each of the student-athletes a fifth year of eligibility to play lacrosse, regardless if the participation is for Duke or another NCAA institution. Duke University applied for the additional season of competition after canceling the 2006 season amid criminal allegations against some members of the team.

“These individuals were involved in an unusual circumstance that we believe warrants providing them the opportunity to complete their four years of competition,” said Jennifer Strawley, NCAA director of student-athlete reinstatement and membership services.

The student-athlete reinstatement staff considered a number of factors in determining that a waiver of NCAA regulations was appropriate. These factors included the unusual and extenuating circumstances surrounding the cancellation of the season; the hardship endured by the team from the false allegations; and the unanimous endorsement by the Atlantic Coast Conference university presidents for the waiver.

At least a few of the current seniors already had jobs lined up.

It will be interesting to see who decides to come back for another year and who opts to move on. Regardless of what they ultimately decide to do, I'm glad they have the opportunity to make such a decision.

blazindw
05-30-2007, 02:11 PM
This is incredible. Kudos to the NCAA for doing their part to give these kids back something that was wrongfully taken away from them. I hope all the seniors consider staying, because if so, maybe next year is the year. Go Duke!

bill brill
05-30-2007, 02:15 PM
this must be an alltime speed record for the ncaa to honor a request. my main question now is how will they handle the scholarship money. I can't imagine that duke would be allowed to give over the ncaa max of 11.7 grants. with the great class of 15 coming in, they will now have a huge squad if many of the 13 seniors come back. before the final four, danowski and, I believe o'hara, said they would. I would guess that only the regulars would even consider it. but even if a handful come back. (a) the team will be very good and (b) the juggling of scholarship money will be intriguing.

Duke09
05-30-2007, 02:16 PM
In a stunning move, NCAA gives Duke lacrosse another year of eligibility for the lost 2006 season
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2887146

Atlanta Duke
05-30-2007, 02:26 PM
Good news for anyone who wants another year at the Gothic Wonderland, but seeing as these players have options other than pro lax and can start their life's work at places like Goldman or Morgan Stanley, I would assume not everyone is going to exercise the option to return for a 5th year after graduating. Among other issues, I wonder how the scholarship $$ get divided up - this presumably will not be the same as being a 5th year redshirt on full scholarship.

grossbus
05-30-2007, 02:27 PM
maybe a bigger deal for the juniors? while we have some great seniors, i suspect, as mentioned above, that this late in the year they have to have made plans.

Noteware
05-30-2007, 02:42 PM
I'm wondering whether Duke can find a creative way to give these guys a 5th year of scholarships by funding them from the grad schools. Could Loftus, for example, get into Fuqua and get a full ride? Would that count against the athletic department's limits?

feldspar
05-30-2007, 02:44 PM
Sorry to be the sourpuss, but why do we still have a Lacrosse board still if it's not being used?

Should it perhaps instead be renamed the LAX Scandal Board?

Oriole Way
05-30-2007, 02:45 PM
maybe a bigger deal for the juniors? while we have some great seniors, i suspect, as mentioned above, that this late in the year they have to have made plans.

I think the seniors would be able to get the same jobs next year. If not the same jobs, similar ones in the same fields. I really think that if Danowski and Loftus decide to come back, everyone else will too.

On a couple of the telecasts, I remember hearing that, as someone mentioned above, Danowski and a couple other seniors said they would come back.

Great news, I would be surprised if the seniors didn't want another chance at a championship. We would have to be pretty big favorites next year.

77devil
05-30-2007, 02:50 PM
Good news for anyone who wants another year at the Gothic Wonderland, but seeing as these players have options other than pro lax and can start their life's work at places like Goldman or Morgan Stanley, I would assume not everyone is going to exercise the option to return for a 5th year after graduating. Among other issues, I wonder how the scholarship $$ get divided up - this presumably will not be the same as being a 5th year redshirt on full scholarship.

Given entry life at a Wall Street investment bank, another year at the Gothic Wonderland should be quite appealing as long as the firms are willing to defer the offer which they do routinely.

The Gordog
05-30-2007, 02:57 PM
Because this is sports related news. That other board is for trial related stuff (and should be closed down any day now.)

feldspar
05-30-2007, 03:05 PM
Because this is sports related news. That other board is for trial related stuff (and should be closed down any day now.)

Thanks. I wasn't aware that this was the policy. I was under the impression the LAX board was just for LAX news.

Exiled_Devil
05-30-2007, 03:10 PM
Given entry life at a Wall Street investment bank, another year at the Gothic Wonderland should be quite appealing as long as the firms are willing to defer the offer which they do routinely.

I can also easily see a situation where the players have 'paid internships' at their companies in the fall, and then enroll in some classes (grad or u-grad) in the spring.

The idea of them getting money from Fuqua is highly unlikely. IIRC, Fuqua's tuition is about 2x the undergrad tuition, and the only students who get scholarships are only given to PhD students. It's too late to get in as a PhD student at Fuqua, and the faculty take the PhD program incredibly seriously, such that they would not want to offer someone time there without the expectations of that someone focusing solely on academics.

Having said that, the new Dean may want to do something for interested lacrosse players - he is not adverse to bending tradition to do the right thing, and I think that he is sympathetic to these players. I would not bank on the business school, though.

I think that the best bet is financing through future employers.

Exiled

feldspar
05-30-2007, 03:13 PM
(and should be closed down any day now.)

Why is that? It's still a pretty active board.

Duvall
05-30-2007, 03:31 PM
That other board is for trial related stuff (and should be closed down any day now.)

God, I hope not. We don't want the crazy spilling over to the boards that are still salvageable.

Udaman
05-30-2007, 03:33 PM
Sorry, but I can't see this as a good decision at all. It basically holds the lacrosse team as having no culpability at all in the actions they took that night, and in the resulting firestorm those actions caused.

Look at it this way. If a fraternity had a party off site, and it was busted by the cops, and they found that they had hired strippers and were serving alcohol to underage members, then the fraternity would likely be put on suspension for the semester. They wouldn't be kicked out of school. But they wouldn't get to do "fraternity things" for a semester.

Now, if that same fraternity had a woman claim she was raped, and it caused a huge black eye on the school, and they had a history of having parties like this, and had been told to tone it down, and three members were arrested for rape. The fraternity would be gone. End of discussion.

Again, I'm not saying the lacrosse players deserved to go to jail, or be suspended from Duke. But they certainly deserved to have their season canceled for what they did that night, and for how their decisions affected Duke. Instead, they basically get nothing.

Indoor66
05-30-2007, 03:52 PM
Kudos to the Athletic administration for moving on the issue in a very creative way!

Lavabe
05-30-2007, 04:09 PM
Thanks. I wasn't aware that this was the policy. I was under the impression the LAX board was just for LAX news.

I was under the same impression as feldspar. :eek:

What happens with threads such as the one about yesterday's Feinstein piece? That was about the athletic department, K, AND lacrosse ... and now has two DBR Home Page (Main & Our Call) mentions.

Please clarify. Thank you.
Cheers,
Lavabe

Stray Gator
05-30-2007, 04:12 PM
Sorry to be the sourpuss, but why do we still have a Lacrosse board still if it's not being used?

Should it perhaps instead be renamed the LAX Scandal Board?

**************

Here's the "official" description of the Lacrosse Forum as provided in the main listing of "DBR Forums" (click on "Bulletin Boards" above to read the list):

"This forum is for the discussion of the Duke lacrosse case and the fallout it has spread around Duke, Durham, and the nation."

Based on this description, it appears to me that news regarding the NCAA's approval of an extra year of eligibility to make up for the cancelled season could arguably fit in either forum. I don't think posting this news on the Main Board is inappropriate, especially since it will likely be a matter of interest to many fans who do not frequent the Lacrosse Forum.

Atlanta Duke
05-30-2007, 04:29 PM
Given entry life at a Wall Street investment bank, another year at the Gothic Wonderland should be quite appealing as long as the firms are willing to defer the offer which they do routinely.

True enough but at some point the real world beckons.

Since this would not be Matt Leinart taking ballroom dancing while on a full scholly at USC prior to playing pro ball, I would think not only non-star players but parents footing the bill would wonder how playing lax for another year helps you on your path to being a future master of the universe.

dukie8
05-30-2007, 08:07 PM
this must be an alltime speed record for the ncaa to honor a request. my main question now is how will they handle the scholarship money. I can't imagine that duke would be allowed to give over the ncaa max of 11.7 grants. with the great class of 15 coming in, they will now have a huge squad if many of the 13 seniors come back. before the final four, danowski and, I believe o'hara, said they would. I would guess that only the regulars would even consider it. but even if a handful come back. (a) the team will be very good and (b) the juggling of scholarship money will be intriguing.

does the ncaa cap the total number of players on a team? it sounds like they may have to do some red shirting if all the AAs come back as well some of the other seniors. i would have to think that they would be the heavy favorites to win next year if some of these guys come back, no?

greybeard
05-30-2007, 09:19 PM
1. LAX is the fastest growing sport in these United States of America in terms of participation. See last Saturday's Washington Post.

2. Right next to soccer, LAX is the most successful men's sport at Duke this year.

3. LAX involves about 40 team members, most of whom actually play a significant role. They won all but three of their games.

4. The NCAA just took an unprecedented action that impacts on the fortune's of Duke LAX for several years.

5. LAX news belongs on this board because the Duke team came within a few plays of winning a national championship, just as the soccer team did.

6. More than 100,000 people showed up in person to watch Duke LAX play two games. When was the last time that happened in any sport at Duke?

Now, why does Duke football belong on this board?

chrishoke
05-30-2007, 10:03 PM
More good news: Matt Danowski Earns Tewaaraton Trophy As Nation's Top Lacrosse Player - Congratulations Matt!!:)

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=919617

dukie8
05-30-2007, 10:06 PM
1. LAX is the fastest growing sport in these United States of America in terms of participation. See last Saturday's Washington Post.

2. Right next to soccer, LAX is the most successful men's sport at Duke this year.

3. LAX involves about 40 team members, most of whom actually play a significant role. They won all but three of their games.

4. The NCAA just took an unprecedented action that impacts on the fortune's of Duke LAX for several years.

5. LAX news belongs on this board because the Duke team came within a few plays of winning a national championship, just as the soccer team did.

6. More than 100,000 people showed up in person to watch Duke LAX play two games. When was the last time that happened in any sport at Duke?

Now, why does Duke football belong on this board?

here's a link to the article that you keep on referencing but keep on failing to cite:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/25/AR2007052502283.html?sub=new

for the record, the article only states that youth participation (as defined as under 15) has gone from 40K in '99 to 125K today and 169K boys and girls play it in high school. it doesn't say anything regarding lax being the fastest growing sport in the us in terms of participation (i have no idea if it actually is). in any event, it is a niche sport that only is played in a very limited number of places on the planet (it's only played in north america and in very limited regions in north america). you will have to dig deep to come up with a sport that is played in less places that has d1 scholarships (are there any?) with that being said, the people who play and follow it are extremely passionate about it (see the attendance figures from this past weekend).

SilkyJ
05-30-2007, 10:16 PM
True enough but at some point the real world beckons.

Since this would not be Matt Leinart taking ballroom dancing while on a full scholly at USC prior to playing pro ball, I would think not only non-star players but parents footing the bill would wonder how playing lax for another year helps you on your path to being a future master of the universe.

True, but as you adeptly pointed out, they are not Matt Leinart. They already have their job offer, guaranteed, Not to mention They can't "hurt their draft stock." If they tear an ACL, their starting salary doesn't drop. Why not take one more year of college before going on 6/day and 100hr weeks?


Sorry, but I can't see this as a good decision at all. It basically holds the lacrosse team as having no culpability at all in the actions they took that night, and in the resulting firestorm those actions caused.

Look at it this way. If a fraternity had a party off site, and it was busted by the cops, and they found that they had hired strippers and were serving alcohol to underage members, then the fraternity would likely be put on suspension for the semester. They wouldn't be kicked out of school. But they wouldn't get to do "fraternity things" for a semester.



Flat out wrong. First off, there is nothing illegal about having strippers. Moreover, the school does not excersize any authority with off-campus citations and misdemeanors. Fall of 2005 I believe it was when SigNu and ATO each had parties that got busted by ALE during orientation that got something like 150 freshman citations. NOTHING was done to the frats.

SilkyJ
05-30-2007, 10:19 PM
Not at all of these guys are going to work on Wall Street. We are talking about it like most of them are. Most of them, in fact, are not. Its only a handful.

ryetales
05-30-2007, 10:29 PM
For the record, lacrosse is played across the planet, not just North America. While the US does have dream team status in the quadrennial Lacrosse World Championships, other countries are getting closer especially Australia. Lacrosse has been represented twice in the Olympics, '32 and '36. The problem that I see for collegiate growth of the sport is limited sports funding. Lacrosse is not a cheap sport for a college to fund, and with regional issues, travel costs add up quickly. Watch a few games or even better, play in a game and you will see why people who are already fans are so passionate.

Ryetales
Duke Lacrosse '83

greybeard
05-30-2007, 10:55 PM
here's a link to the article that you keep on referencing but keep on failing to cite:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/25/AR2007052502283.html?sub=new

for the record, the article only states that youth participation (as defined as under 15) has gone from 40K in '99 to 125K today and 169K boys and girls play it in high school. it doesn't say anything regarding lax being the fastest growing sport in the us in terms of participation (i have no idea if it actually is). in any event, it is a niche sport that only is played in a very limited number of places on the planet (it's only played in north america and in very limited regions in north america). you will have to dig deep to come up with a sport that is played in less places that has d1 scholarships (are there any?) with that being said, the people who play and follow it are extremely passionate about it (see the attendance figures from this past weekend).

For the record, the article says that the sport is growing exponentially and in such non traditional lacrosse, and highly populace states, as California, Texas and Florida. I have read elsewhere where the growth of lacrosse has eclipsed all other sports. Participation in football, for example, in high school, is actually on the decline, even in such states as Texas, Oklahoma, and Pa. See sports illustrated. Don't know how many folks play real baseball, not little league, but the next time a college game draws 50 thou, write, okay. BTW, I like the sport; always have, since I used to walk the sidelines when in college and there was no NCAA regulation. Have never played it, I'm sure I would have been terrible at it if I tried, and actually find soccer much more interesting.

There was a major club soccer tournament in DC last weekend; college coaches from all over in attendance. I've heard that a number of kids on area teams competing who also play lax who had a conflict opted to miss the tournament.

The article explained the lack of growth on the college level as being driven by cost. Nonsense. It's tiltle IX.

Reisen
05-30-2007, 11:14 PM
Wow, Dom Starsia's got some bold things to say about a fellow ACC program in the national media:

http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/6867668?MSNHPHMA&GT1=10035

"Everybody in the lacrosse world was embarrassed by what happened," he said. "But it almost feels now as if nobody's really paying for this thing. Most of these wounds seem to be self-inflicted at Duke. I'm not sure if the institution has kind of held itself accountable for everything that happened."

I'm deeply, deeply dissapointed to see a public representative of UVA (a University I consider very "classy") conduct himself in this manner.

Most of these wounds appear to be self-inflicted? Where the heck does he get off?

I dropped him an email asking him to explain his comments...

Oriole Way
05-31-2007, 12:47 AM
Wow, Dom Starsia's got some bold things to say about a fellow ACC program in the national media:

http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/6867668?MSNHPHMA&GT1=10035

"Everybody in the lacrosse world was embarrassed by what happened," he said. "But it almost feels now as if nobody's really paying for this thing. Most of these wounds seem to be self-inflicted at Duke. I'm not sure if the institution has kind of held itself accountable for everything that happened."

I'm deeply, deeply dissapointed to see a public representative of UVA (a University I consider very "classy") conduct himself in this manner.

Most of these wounds appear to be self-inflicted? Where the heck does he get off?

I dropped him an email asking him to explain his comments... ds3s@virginia.edu if anyone else feels like letting him know how they feel.

He's just bitter that his team will have to get crushed by Duke a couple times next year.

dukie8
05-31-2007, 06:25 AM
For the record, lacrosse is played across the planet, not just North America. While the US does have dream team status in the quadrennial Lacrosse World Championships, other countries are getting closer especially Australia. Lacrosse has been represented twice in the Olympics, '32 and '36. The problem that I see for collegiate growth of the sport is limited sports funding. Lacrosse is not a cheap sport for a college to fund, and with regional issues, travel costs add up quickly. Watch a few games or even better, play in a game and you will see why people who are already fans are so passionate.

Ryetales
Duke Lacrosse '83

if you view lax in such liberal terms, then bobsledding is big in jamaica and downhill skiing is popular in most african countries. the reality is that lax primarily is played in a very small number of states in the united states (eg, md, ny, nj, va, ct and ma) and is very limited within those states (do you think a kid growing up in paterson who has an interest in lax is going to be able to play it?) the fact that it was in the olympics almost 100 years ago is irrelevant to what is going on today. i'm not saying it is a bad sport or a boring sport -- just that its appeal is extremely limited, which may explain why more schools are reluctant to add it. there isn't a d1 sport with scholarships that even comes close to its narrow fan base. every other sport that i can think of is played across the us (not just the northeast in some towns) and/or internationally in many countries (not 2 or 3). i do agree that title ix -- not high costs -- also is contributing factor in why more schools have not added it.

Atlanta Duke
05-31-2007, 08:16 AM
Not at all of these guys are going to work on Wall Street. We are talking about it like most of them are. Most of them, in fact, are not. Its only a handful.


I am pretty sure their future employment options are not limited to pro lax or the car wash either.
Since you need to be enrolled to play, I really question how this makes much sense for any non-schaolarship player who intends to secure a degree in 4 years.

JasonEvans
05-31-2007, 08:16 AM
Seems like all the seniors are seriously considering coming back. None of them plan to enter the professional LAX draft, in which several of them would have been chosen high (Danowski would have been the #1 pick).

http://www.heraldsun.com/sports/18-852339.cfm?


"It's a second chance in a way, and it's well-deserved," senior defenseman Tony McDevitt said. "Obviously there will be people who critique it -- there always are -- but the NCAA made a strong decision, and we appreciate it."

Now McDevitt and his fellow seniors face a difficult decision. All 13 have graduated and McDevitt and several others have already secured jobs.

But according to McDevitt, all the seniors are at least considering a return. The professional Major League Lacrosse draft is today, and in order to be drafted, players must go through a registration process that forces them to give up their amateur status.

McDevitt said none of the seniors -- even potential No. 1 pick Matt Danowski -- plans to enter the draft.

"Nobody has said that they're definitely not coming back," McDevitt said. "It's not a decision you can just make overnight. We need some time to think about it."

-Jason "I've seen the real world guys... delay entering it as long as you can ;) " Evans

mph
05-31-2007, 08:36 AM
Wow, Dom Starsia's got some bold things to say about a fellow ACC program in the national media:

http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/6867668?MSNHPHMA&GT1=10035

"Everybody in the lacrosse world was embarrassed by what happened," he said. "But it almost feels now as if nobody's really paying for this thing. Most of these wounds seem to be self-inflicted at Duke. I'm not sure if the institution has kind of held itself accountable for everything that happened."

I'm deeply, deeply dissapointed to see a public representative of UVA (a University I consider very "classy") conduct himself in this manner.

Most of these wounds appear to be self-inflicted? Where the heck does he get off?

I dropped him an email asking him to explain his comments... ds3s@virginia.edu if anyone else feels like letting him know how they feel.

I don't agree with Starsia, but he's already offered a reasonable explanation for his position. He, like other coaches (http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/college/lacrosse/bal-sp.duke31may31,0,6054963.story?coll=bal-college-lacrosse) who felt the NCAA should have turned down our appeal, argued that:

1. The players played eight games, nearly half of the season.

2. The decision to stop the season was made by Duke, not the NCAA. Duke didn't have to cancel the season. As such, the wound was "self-inflicted".

I don't see how this constitutes a lack of class or warrants a barrage of emails.

AtlBluRew
05-31-2007, 08:54 AM
I don't see how this constitutes a lack of class or warrants a barrage of emails.

I agree. The NYTimes article (linked by DBR) definitely includes a snipe Starsia aimed at Duke -- something to the effect that Duke's power in basketball made the NCAA concede a request concerning lacrosse, but then, the bitterness is softened a bit.

From the NYTimes article:

A larger issue is that the Duke administration has never admitted that it erred. Starsia said that “most of the wounds were self-inflicted.”

“I know that the coaches and players wanted an explanation, or an apology maybe, before they wanted the extra year back,” he (Starsia) said. “In lieu of that, Duke stepped up and said, ‘Look what we’re doing for you.’ I don’t think anyone is being held accountable for what happened here.”

He's pretty clearly aiming a barb at the Duke administration, not the players.

Reisen
05-31-2007, 09:04 AM
Coach Starsia sent me a very "classy" reply this morning, which, while I won't copy verbatim in a public forum, pretty much mirrored what you wrote, mph. Ie., the damage to Duke lacrosse (firing the coach, cancelling the season) was largely self-inflicted in that it came from our own administration, not the NCAA.

However, I still take issue with the statement "It almost feels as if nobody's really paying for this thing... I'm not sure the institution had kind of held itself accountable for what happened".

Starsia, and others, feel that the NCAA ruling came too fast, and we should have started with a Duke administration apology for their actions. I feel similarly with regards to the administration, but honestly, I'm not holding out much hope. The NCAA has little control over Duke firing Pressler, nor can they make them offer an apology. What they can control, is eligibility. I think they did the right thing by offering an extra year to all those players who who really did NOTHING wrong or illegal here (ie. weren't even at the party, were legally of age to drink, etc).

While the other coaches considerations regarding the logistical problems giving so many people an extra year of eligibility present are valid, I think they pale in comparison to the injustice that happened here.

Edit: ATL nailed it, but I don't think the Fox Sports article made it in any way clear that Starsia was aiming his criticism at the Duke administration and not the players. Starsia confirmed this in his email.

Stray Gator
05-31-2007, 09:20 AM
I don't agree with Starsia, but he's already offered a reasonable explanation for his position. He, like other coaches (http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/college/lacrosse/bal-sp.duke31may31,0,6054963.story?coll=bal-college-lacrosse) who felt the NCAA should have turned down our appeal, argued that:

1. The players played eight games, nearly half of the season.

2. The decision to stop the season was made by Duke, not the NCAA. Duke didn't have to cancel the season. As such, the wound was "self-inflicted".

I don't see how this constitutes a lack of class or warrants a barrage of emails.

***************

1. The fact that last year's team played half of the games on the schedule may be a valid consideration, but IMO is outweighed by the fact that the early curtailment of the season effectively deprived the team of an opportunity to compete for the championship. Moreover, as a practical matter, renewing the players' eligibility for only half of next year's games would be a meaningless gesture, because no one would come back for half a season.

2. To say that Duke's cancellation of the season was "self-inflicted" is pretty myopic, unless you buy into the notion that the Administration cancelled the season solely to "punish" the lacrosse team. In fact, unless I'm mistaken, the lacrosse team supported cancellation of the season--and may have even requested that action--because it was clear that any attempt to play the games would have been disrupted due to the circus atmosphere, and potential for violent confrontation, created by the presence of protesting pot-bangers, New Black Panthers, etc. (And those who think the University could simply have excluded such people from attending without consequence are, IMO, obtusely disregarding or underestimating the power of a predatory media to incite and elevate controversy.) Like most of the misfortune arising from the so-called "Duke lacrosse rape case," the cancellation of the season was inflicted (albeit indirectly) by an accuser who lied and a prosecutor who selfishly chose to sacrifice justice and honor and integrity at the alter of political expediency.

In any event, even if the justification for the NCAA's action was reasonably debatable, it is IMO unseemly for the coach of a conference rival to make a public statement that the injury suffered by the Duke lacrosse players, which the NCAA has deemed appropriate to remedy, was "self-inflicted."

SilkyJ
05-31-2007, 09:46 AM
^Eloquently put. Although I'm not sure about the team SUPPORTING the cancellation of their own season. I had never heard that before. Your reasons make sense, and it certainly could be true, but I was a student at the time and never once heard that.

Mike Corey
05-31-2007, 11:25 AM
The key point, IMO, is that Duke can argue that it had no choice but to cancel the season out of absolute necessity in ensuring the safety of the lacrosse players.

Whether or not Duke made mistakes--or admitted mistakes--in the handling of the imbroglio is completely irrelevant as a result.

Even if Duke had fallen on its own sword; or even if Duke had handled the situation without a modicum of error, (I would guess) that the Administration would be able to successfully contend that the death threats and other threats hurled at the lacrosse players and their families were sufficient justification to keep them off the practice and playing fields.

To argue with myself, however, I'd ask why the Administration had not cited security concerns outright when it opted to cancel the season. The answers to that question could be varied, and one wonders if any of you might have any insight therein.

All that aside, I think it's a just decision from the NCAA, and a welcome opportunity for the student-athletes to be able to choose whether or not to return for one more year to their school and their team.

freedevil
05-31-2007, 11:51 AM
I don't have a link, but I was under the impression that the administration and the team actually agreed that playing lacrosse at that time of the initial investigation was simply not a good idea (implying that the safety of the players was a major concern). (It may have been during the time where they forfeited games, i.e. prior to formally cancelling the season).

Stray Gator
05-31-2007, 12:54 PM
I don't have a link, but I was under the impression that the administration and the team actually agreed that playing lacrosse at that time of the initial investigation was simply not a good idea (implying that the safety of the players was a major concern). (It may have been during the time where they forfeited games, i.e. prior to formally cancelling the season).

*************

That's my recollection, too. But unfortunately I don't have the time right now to go back and locate a corroborating article to link.

Mike Corey
05-31-2007, 01:05 PM
Quote from Chris Kennedy in today's Herald Sun:


"It wasn't that the university chose to end the season; I think they had no choice but to end the season. What a lot of people didn't know at the time was the level and the intensity and the number of threats those kids were getting. Mail, e-mail, telephone -- we were getting death threats. You tend not to take that stuff seriously, but there's no way I could have justified putting those kids in a public, advertised accessible space together because all it takes is one guy."

Ima Facultiwyfe
05-31-2007, 01:59 PM
Let the "boos" at every venue begin. Duke haters are already coming out of the woodwork, bless their hearts.
Love, Ima

Bluedog
05-31-2007, 05:21 PM
I don't have a link, but I was under the impression that the administration and the team actually agreed that playing lacrosse at that time of the initial investigation was simply not a good idea (implying that the safety of the players was a major concern). (It may have been during the time where they forfeited games, i.e. prior to formally cancelling the season).

Here is a quote that alludes to the fact that at least some of the players had some input: "President Brodhead later decided, in consultation with the athletics department and some of the players themselves, to suspend the remaining games until the legal situation-then involving 46 players-became clearer."

http://www.dukealumni.com/__page/10036878.100.6.aspx
under "Why did the university cancel the lacrosse season if innocence was presumed?"

Tom B.
05-31-2007, 06:13 PM
Wow, Dom Starsia's got some bold things to say about a fellow ACC program in the national media:

http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/6867668?MSNHPHMA&GT1=10035

"Everybody in the lacrosse world was embarrassed by what happened," he said. "But it almost feels now as if nobody's really paying for this thing. Most of these wounds seem to be self-inflicted at Duke. I'm not sure if the institution has kind of held itself accountable for everything that happened."

I'm deeply, deeply dissapointed to see a public representative of UVA (a University I consider very "classy") conduct himself in this manner.

Most of these wounds appear to be self-inflicted? Where the heck does he get off?



Tell you what, Dom -- every one of Duke's players will give up his extra year of eligibility if your team (you know, the one that lost to Duke twice this year) agrees to play Duke in a one-game, winner-take-all match for the national championship that you won in 2006 without ever having to face us. Deal?

dukie8
05-31-2007, 09:18 PM
I don't have a link, but I was under the impression that the administration and the team actually agreed that playing lacrosse at that time of the initial investigation was simply not a good idea (implying that the safety of the players was a major concern). (It may have been during the time where they forfeited games, i.e. prior to formally cancelling the season).

here's the quote:

The lacrosse team's captains met with Brodhead Tuesday morning and requested that the University "suspend competitive play until the DNA results come back."

In a statement from the captains, they said the allegations of sexual assault and rape are "totally and transparently false" and "because of the intense emotions surrounding these allegations, we feel it is in the best interest of the University, the community and our families that the team should not play competitively."

http://media.www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2006/03/29/News/Lax-Games.Suspended.Amid.Controversy-1763516.shtml?sourcedomain=www.dukechronicle.com&MIIHost=media.collegepublisher.com

so the dna came back negative and i don't recall reading anything about the team then agreeing that they wanted to cancel the season. brodhead might have stated that somewhere but we all know that brodhead was less than truthful on more than one occasion with the lax case (eg, not admitting that he fired pressler). i have a very very hard time believing that the players wanted the season cancelled after the dna came back negative. the pending books should shed light on what they actually wanted.

jimsumner
05-31-2007, 09:39 PM
"LAX news belongs on this board because the Duke team came within a few plays of winning a national championship, just as the soccer team did."

Inasmuch as the Duke men's soccer team lost in the quarterfinals, you have a different definition of "a few plays" than I do.

hughgs
06-03-2007, 09:02 PM
here's the quote:

The lacrosse team's captains met with Brodhead Tuesday morning and requested that the University "suspend competitive play until the DNA results come back."

In a statement from the captains, they said the allegations of sexual assault and rape are "totally and transparently false" and "because of the intense emotions surrounding these allegations, we feel it is in the best interest of the University, the community and our families that the team should not play competitively."

http://media.www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2006/03/29/News/Lax-Games.Suspended.Amid.Controversy-1763516.shtml?sourcedomain=www.dukechronicle.com&MIIHost=media.collegepublisher.com

so the dna came back negative and i don't recall reading anything about the team then agreeing that they wanted to cancel the season. brodhead might have stated that somewhere but we all know that brodhead was less than truthful on more than one occasion with the lax case (eg, not admitting that he fired pressler). i have a very very hard time believing that the players wanted the season cancelled after the dna came back negative. the pending books should shed light on what they actually wanted.

What date did the DNA results come back? Thanks.

gus
06-04-2007, 04:00 AM
What date did the DNA results come back? Thanks.

Not sure when the results "came back", but they were made public April 10 (iirc).

I imagine the players, in making that statement, expected the DNA results to exonerate the players, and end the court case. The latter did not happen immediately, and the situation that justified suspending play still existed.

hughgs
06-04-2007, 05:51 AM
Not sure when the results "came back", but they were made public April 10 (iirc).

I imagine the players, in making that statement, expected the DNA results to exonerate the players, and end the court case. The latter did not happen immediately, and the situation that justified suspending play still existed.

Thanks. I originally asked, wondering what number of games would've been lost if Duke had resumed play after the DNA results. I'm going to guess 4 games. I also don't think they were supposed to be practicing during that time either. Would've made for an interesting set of tournaments.

With respect to your analysis I suspect you're correct. It looks like the captains wanted to suspend play until the DNA results came back but Brodhead wanted to wait until the legal situation was less murky.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=25937&SPID=2027&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=251530

kexman
06-04-2007, 09:56 AM
couple of thoughts:

1) I might have given the players an extra year of eligibility, but not at duke...they could use it during a year of grad school at a different university. Not sure if any of them would want eligibility elsewhere so maybe that is a hallow solution. On some level allowing Duke to bring everyone back from a finals team seems like a reward (to the university not to the players).

2) I'm not sure how I would feel if I was a freshman or an incoming student. This gives me the best chance to win a championship, but I was probably counting on a larger role next year without the seniors. The players that really deserved the extra year were last years seniors who did not get to finish their senior seasons...at least this group played their senior season.

Trying to make good from a bad situation is diffucult...I'm glad I'm not having to make decisions about the aftermath.

freedevil
06-04-2007, 11:33 AM
^ There weren't that many freshman coming in anyways. A bunch of them played good minutes anyways, from my understanding.

dukie8
06-04-2007, 09:57 PM
Not sure when the results "came back", but they were made public April 10 (iirc).

I imagine the players, in making that statement, expected the DNA results to exonerate the players, and end the court case. The latter did not happen immediately, and the situation that justified suspending play still existed.

the dna results DID largely exonerate the lax players in the eyes of anyone objectively looking at the evidence (obviously not nifong). i remember hearing a very small minority of experts on tv saying that it absolutely was impossible for a rape to have taken place and without 1 iota of dna on or in magnum and no evidence of condoms. it's brodhead who, when faced with the american psycho email, weakly decided to go ahead and cancel the season just days before the dna results came back.

it's important to note that the lax players, at least publicly, agreed with suspending the season until the dna results came back. they came back negative and there never was any indication that the players agreed with cancelling the season either on april 5th or april 10th. brodhead painted himself in a corner by prematurely cancelling the season on april 5th because he would have looked even more out to sea had he cancelled his cancellation of the season on april 10th. contrary to what other people on here have stated, i thought that cancelling the season was a terrible decision at the time and still do. a truly great and strong leader would have waited until the dna results came back, gotten the negative results, realized that it was a hoax and then decided that the season would go on despite all of the negative press and potbangers. yes, there would have been a lot of media attention and security would have to have been tight but they still could have played the games. had brodhead done that and sent a stern message to the deviants who were so out to get the players, i think a lot of the negative feelings towards brodhead from within the duke community would not exist today.

dukemomLA
06-05-2007, 01:36 AM
I just read an article on SI.com about recruits. It seems that UVA has a GREAT class incoming. And Maryland also. ACC LAX seems to be on the cusp of becoming the premier place for which LAX students should aspire.

I'm not someone who has followed this sport for 'years' so I'd appreciate the thoughts of others with more knowledge than myself.

JasonEvans
06-05-2007, 08:14 AM
I just read an article on SI.com about recruits. It seems that UVA has a GREAT class incoming. And Maryland also. ACC LAX seems to be on the cusp of becoming the premier place for which LAX students should aspire.

I'm not someone who has followed this sport for 'years' so I'd appreciate the thoughts of others with more knowledge than myself.

I am not a huge follower of the sport either, but I do know that the ACC is easily one of the best leagues in the land.There are programs from outside the ACC that are great at the sport, notably Johns Hopkins, but I think the ACC is the top conference for the sport.

There are 57 NCAA teams that play Division I Lacrosse. 4 ACC teams play the sport: Duke, UNC, Maryland, and Virgina. This year, all 4 of them made the 16-team NCAA tournament. Last year, because Duke cancelled its season, only 2 ACC teams made the tourney but Virginia won it all. Virginia also won the title in 2003 and 1999. In 2005, 3 of the 4 ACC teams made the dance (minus UNC, who made it in 2004). So, in the past 4 years, every ACC team has made the NCAA tourney at least twice. That is a sign of how strong the league is.

-Jason "Virgina has always been the best in the ACC-- until Duke really rose up recently" Evans

Indoor66
06-05-2007, 02:12 PM
What surprises me is the MD does not dominate ACC LAX. The Baltimore and Maryland, in general, is, irrc, a hotbed of LAX activity - collegiately and high school. Why is MD not able to keep these recruits at home? (Other than the obvious - that it IS Maryland!)

jimsumner
06-05-2007, 02:30 PM
Maryland actually has more ACC championships in men's lacrosse than Virginia. Virginia has more NCAA titles, 4 to 2. UNC also has 4 titles, none very recent.

Keep in mind that Johns Hopkins is the dominant power in the sport and they're going to get their share of top Baltimore players, maybe more than their share.

greybeard
06-05-2007, 02:51 PM
"LAX news belongs on this board because the Duke team came within a few plays of winning a national championship, just as the soccer team did."

Inasmuch as the Duke men's soccer team lost in the quarterfinals, you have a different definition of "a few plays" than I do.

I suppose you are correct. I just recall how Duke completely handled Wake and Maryland, and seemed the best team in the country. Once Duke's big big striker went down, either in the NCAAs or ACC, they were never the same team. With him at full strength, they had the ability to advance the ball down the field with it barely touching the ground. Seems amazing that they didn't make it to the final game. UCLA was quite impressive too.

I wonder if any of them guys drank beer where there was underaged drinking, partied with the girls, or is it "Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

What the NCAA did was huge. The guy from Va is an IDIOT! The Cornell coach, I should add, applauded the decision. See KC Johnson on that.

TheTrain
06-05-2007, 02:54 PM
This year was not a banner year for Maryland recruits

Hopkins only has 1 Maryland player coming in next year's class
UNC has 2
Duke, UVA, ND, Princeton and Cornell have 3
Georgetown has 4
Maryland has 5

And while we're at it, Jason....you have no idea what you are talking about here........Ace Adams drove UVA's program into the ground (thus why Starsia was hired from Brown in the early 90s)......Maryland was the dominant team through the 70s...UNC rose up under Willie Scroggs in the 80s and early 90s...Maryland had strong teams under Dick Edell in the mid-90s.....UVA really did not rise to year-after-year prominence until Starsia arrived and truly began to flourish in the last 8 years

greybeard
06-05-2007, 03:45 PM
This year was not a banner year for Maryland recruits

Hopkins only has 1 Maryland player coming in next year's class
UNC has 2
Duke, UVA, ND, Princeton and Cornell have 3
Georgetown has 4
Maryland has 5

And while we're at it, Jason....you have no idea what you are talking about here........Ace Adams drove UVA's program into the ground (thus why Starsia was hired from Brown in the early 90s)......Maryland was the dominant team through the 70s...UNC rose up under Willie Scroggs in the 80s and early 90s...Maryland had strong teams under Dick Edell in the mid-90s.....UVA really did not rise to year-after-year prominence until Starsia arrived and truly began to flourish in the last 8 years

Train, I think you missed a station here. The Big Red won three of the first four national titles through 75 and I believe competed for others. Maryland won more in the 70s? Couldn't be.

TheTrain
06-05-2007, 04:42 PM
Actually...I hit all of the stations on time

Jason commented "Virgina has always been the best in the ACC-- until Duke really rose up recently".....I was responding to that comment

Believe me.....I was able to toss the ball with Cornell greats Mike French and the late Eamon McInaneny when I was a child....Richie Moran went to college with my father.....I know all about the Big Red of the 70s....but my response had to do with the ACC

formerdukeathlete
06-05-2007, 05:09 PM
A total of 11.7 scholarships per team on any given year means limited support for a sport gaining in popularity.

Compared to rowing which allows 16 scholarships, this seems silly at best.

This issue is particularly germaine for Duke inasmuch as seniors may be coming back for another year of eligibility.

greybeard
06-05-2007, 05:56 PM
Actually...I hit all of the stations on time

Jason commented "Virgina has always been the best in the ACC-- until Duke really rose up recently".....I was responding to that comment

Believe me.....I was able to toss the ball with Cornell greats Mike French and the late Eamon McInaneny when I was a child....Richie Moran went to college with my father.....I know all about the Big Red of the 70s....but my response had to do with the ACC

I saw both play I think (I remember the name French, for sure) at UVA when Cornell beat Hopkins in, I think it was 75. Meet Moran at a Cornell function for the LAX team in DC the next Fall. He was chatting me up: I told him that I had no dough and was not connected to Cornell LAX, and suggested genuinely that it would be ok if he wanted to, you know, move on. The guy never blinked. We talked sports for another 5 minutes or so. Moran impressed the heck out of me that evening.

Seems that the sport is filled with regular guys, except for the coach at UVa who imo is anything but.

TheTrain
06-05-2007, 07:10 PM
Starsia is just panic stricken because he thought he had the ACC and NCAAs already wrapped up with the arrival of his stud freshmen...the Bratton brothers, Ghitelman, Malphrus, Elsmo and others. Now he's ticked because he is not the sure thing that he thought he was

greybeard
06-05-2007, 10:45 PM
Starsia is just panic stricken because he thought he had the ACC and NCAAs already wrapped up with the arrival of his stud freshmen...the Bratton brothers, Ghitelman, Malphrus, Elsmo and others. Now he's ticked because he is not the sure thing that he thought he was

Small minded men do not inspire greatness in others.

When Firestone asked K whether he ever thought that, but for a few bounces of the ball, he'd be in a class by himself behind Wooden in terms of NCAA championships, K responded reflexively, "If I ever care about such things, somebody should just punch me in the face." Some things are priceless. Starsia wouldn't know about such things.

BTW Train, I think that the Big Red have most everybody back. And, I couldn't help but notice when I checked their schedule for the year that they played Notre Dame at GW Hewlett High School on LI. That happens to be where their All-american midfielder went to school, as well as yours truly. Now, there are recruiting trips and then there are recruiting trips. Let's see you Dukies top that! Later.

TheTrain
06-06-2007, 09:07 AM
Actually...Cornell will be hit had by graduation

They lose their entire starting attack (Bartlett, Mitchell and Pittard), they lose one starting middie in Clayton, they lose their LSM in Vedder, they lose their All-America defenseman in Belisle, and they lose their All-America goalie in McGonigal

greybeard
06-06-2007, 11:15 AM
Actually...Cornell will be hit had by graduation

They lose their entire starting attack (Bartlett, Mitchell and Pittard), they lose one starting middie in Clayton, they lose their LSM in Vedder, they lose their All-America defenseman in Belisle, and they lose their All-America goalie in McGonigal

Besides that I was 100 percent accurate. After I wrote, I did a fact check (something I really do) and was going to post a retraction but was delayed by the need to perform a more pressing retraction. You da man, Train.