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Nugget
08-03-2010, 03:43 PM
I've seen numerous references lately to Calipari's "dribble drive" offense as if it is something unique.

Can any of the X and O gurus enlighten us on (i) how his offense works and (ii) what is special about it, as distinguished from, say, D'Antoni's offense or the offense Coach K has run when he's got multiple players who can beat people off the dribble (see, e.g., Duke's offense from the mid 80's, early 90's and 1998-2002)?

dball
08-03-2010, 04:04 PM
Calipari's dribble drive offense

1. Give ball to Rose, Wall (most recent NBA ready guard who is forced to play one year of college ball)

2. Have him dribble and drive

ChicagoCrazy84
08-03-2010, 04:23 PM
Calipari's dribble drive offense

1. Give ball to Rose, Wall (most recent NBA ready guard who is forced to play one year of college ball)

2. Have him dribble and drive


Kidding? Seems about right to me :)

I don't think there is any difference. That's the annoying thing to me. The only difference is that he has guys like Rose, Evans, and Wall running it.

roywhite
08-03-2010, 04:52 PM
It's basically a "4-out" offense with 4 perimeter players who can attack the defense by driving in on the dribble.

Good article 2 years ago in Sports Illustrated on it (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/grant_wahl/02/12/memphis0218/)


...a high-scoring scheme featuring four perimeter players and a host of innovations. Unlike Knight's classic motion offense (which is based on screens) or Pete Carril's Princeton-style offense (which is based on cuts), Walberg's attack was founded on dribble penetration. To Calipari, at least, it embodied two wholly unconventional notions. One, there were no screens, the better to create spacing for drives. Two, the post man ran to the weak side of the lane (instead of the ball side), leaving the ball handler an open driving path to the basket.

As with most offenses, it works best if the players are talented, in this case good dribbling and penetration skills being required.

Big Pappa
08-03-2010, 05:24 PM
I honestly see the "dribble-drive" offense as a recruiting tool more than an offense. Cal gets to tell his recruits who are usually ridiculously athletic and talented that the dribble-drive offense he runs let them play on the perimeter, clears out the middle, and lets them basically play one-on-one with their defender.

That being said, I found a nice blog entry from coachingbetterbball that explains the "offense" a little more.

http://coachingbetterbball.blogspot.com/2009/07/john-calipari-dribble-drive-motion-drop.html

Nugget
08-03-2010, 06:29 PM
Thanks for the link.

What a bunch of hooey.

Other than focusing on recruiting a Center who can beat people off the dribble (which I don't recall Cousins doing much of, actually), there's nothing more to this "offense" than saying it's nice to have lots of players who can handle and take people off the dribble!

Duh.

CameronConvert
08-03-2010, 06:42 PM
I have to disagree with those calling the dribble drive simply a "recruiting tool" or some invention of Coach Cal to lure recruits who don't want to pass or play in a structured setting. While there are times, and certain players, who turn the offense into a pure iso with four other guys standing around, a real dribble drive entails four perimeter players with the ability to attack and get into the lane, and an interior player, who usually has some ability to step out or is a threat in the pick and roll. ideally, you have a point guard who can break opposing defenders down on the dribble and get into the paint (i.e. Wall, Evans, Rose) where they either attack the hoop or dish, the idea being that the player who they dish to has the ability to shoot or attack. as they drive and kick, the perimeter players rotate, and the cycle continues. it's more of a set, which allows the players a certain amount of freedom and creativity off the dribble, than an offense (such as the princeton), which dictates more defined movements both on and off the ball. it's that promise of freedom to attack off the dribble which I think recruits find so appealing, not that you can't attack off the dribble at Duke or anywhere else.

roywhite
08-03-2010, 07:02 PM
I have to disagree with those calling the dribble drive simply a "recruiting tool" or some invention of Coach Cal to lure recruits who don't want to pass or play in a structured setting. While there are times, and certain players, who turn the offense into a pure iso with four other guys standing around, a real dribble drive entails four perimeter players with the ability to attack and get into the lane, and an interior player, who usually has some ability to step out or is a threat in the pick and roll. ideally, you have a point guard who can break opposing defenders down on the dribble and get into the paint (i.e. Wall, Evans, Rose) where they either attack the hoop or dish, the idea being that the player who they dish to has the ability to shoot or attack. as they drive and kick, the perimeter players rotate, and the cycle continues. it's more of a set, which allows the players a certain amount of freedom and creativity off the dribble, than an offense (such as the princeton), which dictates more defined movements both on and off the ball. it's that promise of freedom to attack off the dribble which I think recruits find so appealing, not that you can't attack off the dribble at Duke or anywhere else.

Our late game delay offense has some of those principles. The primary purpose is to use clock time, but it features four men out and eventually one of our guys creating something off the dribble.

CameronConvert
08-03-2010, 07:06 PM
Our late game delay offense has some of those principles. The primary purpose is to use clock time, but it features four men out and eventually one of our guys creating something.

agreed, structurally they're essentially the same, obviously the intent of dribble drive (score/penetrate) is different than the end game (stall/hold for one good shot) but from a personnel and set-up standpoint they're similar.

Jderf
08-03-2010, 07:09 PM
But what do you do when the "freedom" encouraged by the dribble-drive offense comes face to face with another talented team that runs a strong zone? West Virginia anyone?

Kedsy
08-03-2010, 07:13 PM
Our late game delay offense has some of those principles. The primary purpose is to use clock time, but it features four men out and eventually one of our guys creating something off the dribble.

Same with Dean Smith's four corners, if you want to get down to it. Just a matter of how much clock you run off...

roywhite
08-03-2010, 07:16 PM
But what do you do when the "freedom" encouraged by the dribble-drive offense comes face to face with another talented team that runs a strong zone? West Virginia anyone?

Fire away from outside?

And if the first 20 shots from 3-pt range don't go down, well, call a timeout or two and then keep shooting. :)

CameronConvert
08-03-2010, 07:19 PM
But what do you do when the "freedom" encouraged by the dribble-drive offense comes face to face with another talented team that runs a strong zone? West Virginia anyone?

as with any offense, there are limitations. while not at a d1 college level, I ran a dribble-drive in high school, and teams would often come at us with an extended 1-3-1 or a physical 2-3, much like what you saw with WVU. In that situation, you want to 1) drive and kick to your shooters to extend and open up the zone and 2) attack gaps in the zone (corners in the 1-3-1, high post in the 2-3) either through dribble penetration or feeding an interior player stepping out (think the way Channing Frye was used by the Suns). Against a physical WVU team that cut off penetration, Wall and Co. needed to hit some shots, which they failed at miserably.

Newton_14
08-03-2010, 09:44 PM
I honestly see the "dribble-drive" offense as a recruiting tool more than an offense. Cal gets to tell his recruits who are usually ridiculously athletic and talented that the dribble-drive offense he runs let them play on the perimeter, clears out the middle, and lets them basically play one-on-one with their defender.

That being said, I found a nice blog entry from coachingbetterbball that explains the "offense" a little more.

http://coachingbetterbball.blogspot.com/2009/07/john-calipari-dribble-drive-motion-drop.html

Bingo! Winner winner winner. One of the most over hyped "myths" going today. How much "dribble drive" was going on the last time we saw the great Cal's team play? All I saw was a bunch of jacked up 3's that were clanging the backboard...:cool:

rhcpflea99
08-03-2010, 11:37 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/grant_wahl/02/12/memphis0218/

flyingdutchdevil
08-04-2010, 04:45 AM
Bingo! Winner winner winner. One of the most over hyped "myths" going today. How much "dribble drive" was going on the last time we saw the great Cal's team play? All I saw was a bunch of jacked up 3's that were clanging the backboard...:cool:

Absolutely. It's a huge recruiting tool for guards because they get to dribble, drive, and shoot - skills that they think NBA scouts want to see (which, let's face it, is completely true). It's a huge recruiting tool for big men because they don't have to screen and can instead focus their energy on padding stats (rebounding, easy buckets from a rare assist, etc) which they think the NBA wants to see (and, again, completely true).

gumbomoop
08-04-2010, 06:59 AM
One of the most over hyped "myths" going today. How much "dribble drive" was going on the last time we saw the great Cal's team play?

Interestingly, Calipari admits [?] UK didn't use dribble-drive so much last season.

From Andy Katz's 8/2 blog on ESPN website: “Teaching the dribble drive goes against everything these guys have learned,’’ said Calipari, who didn’t run it as much last season with the quick-footed John Wall pushing the offense from one end to another. “When they’re driving they have to look at a few things. It’s not just beating your man. That’s a given. What am I doing? Am I scoring and if not where are they coming from and how is the shifting defense going to affect me?’’

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
08-04-2010, 07:32 AM
Well, I'm far from a "guru" but I've watched about 30 years of college basketball.

As far as being a "recruiting tool," it allows players to create their shots, either off the dribble or by creating space for a shot or a spectacular pass. When you have a team of gifted athletes, they can showcase their talents, put up big numbers, etc.

It's the wave of the future! A patient motion offense built around finding the open player and creating mismatches combined with solid team defense doesn't win champions! Right?

:)

greybeard
08-04-2010, 09:23 AM
I think that the real attraction for guards to come to Kentucky is Rod Stricklin. The guy was a genuis on the court and I'm sure has tons to show players that they can try to incorporate in how they play. I'm also sure that he has tons of stories, keys to what to look for, when and why he would chose to pull up, go, etc.

The main thing is that he can walk through what he used to do at a blur and provide a walking, talking model, how he created illusion, what it felt like to only seem like I was doing X, from which players can then begin the experimentation that is self learning.

The secondary thing is he can talk situationally and why certain things that seemed like they would actually didn't work, etc.

I also think that there was/is way more to Callipari's approach to offense than anything said so far. Much, much more.

uh_no
08-04-2010, 09:32 AM
I think that the real attraction for guards to come to Kentucky is Rod Stricklin. The guy was a genuis on the court and I'm sure has tons to show players that they can try to incorporate in how they play. I'm also sure that he has tons of stories, keys to what to look for, when and why he would chose to pull up, go, etc.

The main thing is that he can walk through what he used to do at a blur and provide a walking, talking model, how he created illusion, what it felt like to only seem like I was doing X, from which players can then begin the experimentation that is self learning.

The secondary thing is he can talk situationally and why certain things that seemed like they would actually didn't work, etc.

I also think that there was/is way more to Callipari's approach to offense than anything said so far. Much, much more.

one thing he never did incorporate into his offense was making free throws.....he said alll season long that he doens't even bother with them...and he downplayed their importance....and then it cost him a national title which would have been vacated anyway

CDu
08-04-2010, 09:42 AM
I think that the real attraction for guards to come to Kentucky is Rod Stricklin. The guy was a genuis on the court and I'm sure has tons to show players that they can try to incorporate in how they play. I'm also sure that he has tons of stories, keys to what to look for, when and why he would chose to pull up, go, etc.

The main thing is that he can walk through what he used to do at a blur and provide a walking, talking model, how he created illusion, what it felt like to only seem like I was doing X, from which players can then begin the experimentation that is self learning.

The secondary thing is he can talk situationally and why certain things that seemed like they would actually didn't work, etc.

I also think that there was/is way more to Callipari's approach to offense than anything said so far. Much, much more.

You may very well be right on this (and I certainly agree with the last sentence). But it's "Strickland", not Stricklin. As for Calipari's offense, it definitely helps to have great players (so his recruiting accentuates the offense), but I agree that it's not as simplistic as some are suggesting in this thread.

uh_no
08-04-2010, 09:50 AM
it's not as simplistic as some are suggesting in this thread.

You're the second person to say its not simplistic.....but by virtue of the fact that the players calipari recruits can run it, it must be the simplest of simple..... :P

oakvillebluedevil
08-04-2010, 11:16 AM
I have to disagree with those calling the dribble drive simply a "recruiting tool" or some invention of Coach Cal to lure recruits who don't want to pass or play in a structured setting. While there are times, and certain players, who turn the offense into a pure iso with four other guys standing around, a real dribble drive entails four perimeter players with the ability to attack and get into the lane, and an interior player, who usually has some ability to step out or is a threat in the pick and roll. ideally, you have a point guard who can break opposing defenders down on the dribble and get into the paint (i.e. Wall, Evans, Rose) where they either attack the hoop or dish, the idea being that the player who they dish to has the ability to shoot or attack. as they drive and kick, the perimeter players rotate, and the cycle continues. it's more of a set, which allows the players a certain amount of freedom and creativity off the dribble, than an offense (such as the princeton), which dictates more defined movements both on and off the ball. it's that promise of freedom to attack off the dribble which I think recruits find so appealing, not that you can't attack off the dribble at Duke or anywhere else.

Great post.

Another good way to look at this is from the perspective of the opposing defense. If you are a wing on d, and the opposing point guard drives, you have to at least take a step over to help and slow him down. At this point, the rest of the defense is shifting, as the offensive players move to fill predetermined spots. You have to move quickly to recover if the ball is kicked out, and then your man can attack you off the dribble while you are attempting to close him out and the defense behind you isn't quite set.

In this way, it's very similar to a screen in a traditional motion offense like Duke ran for the second half of last year. If your man is setting a screen, you have to take a step and hedge or bump the cutter to slow him down. The rest of the defense is shifting as the offense rotates to fill predetermined spots.

In both the traditional and DD motion offenses, the teams look to force the defense to move a lot and make a lot of these split-second decisions, creating a lot of chances for the defense to make a mistake. Then they seek to exploit those errors. The difference is DD uses the dribble, traditional motion uses screens and passes.

Wall made the DD motion offense seem like 1-on-5 a lot simply because he was such a great driver that he was able to get to the rim on the first try. Much like a motion offense usually doesn't work on the 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd screen/cut action, the DD offense is designed to be most effective on the 3rd and 4th drives, after the defense has had to shift, switch, and reset numerous times. It definitely is a system, and it's simple to create effective variations as you can attack from different areas on the court and have different players initiate the offense.

It's perfect for the college game with it's 35-second clock, as it puts enormous amounts of pressure on the individual defenders, and with the explosive athletes Cal recruits one small mistake and the next thing you know they are hanging on the rim (and telling you about it). That said, it wasn't Cal's invention, he's simply putting it to use. I therefore refuse to give him too much credit :D

COYS
08-04-2010, 02:57 PM
Great post.

It's perfect for the college game with it's 35-second clock, as it puts enormous amounts of pressure on the individual defenders, and with the explosive athletes Cal recruits one small mistake and the next thing you know they are hanging on the rim (and telling you about it). That said, it wasn't Cal's invention, he's simply putting it to use. I therefore refuse to give him too much credit :D

I think this is a great point. Cal's offense actually hasn't been all that fast paced or fast break dependent. Even with a string of quick point guards in Rose, Evans, and Wall, Cal's offense has been ranked 87th in adjusted pace with Rose, 147th with Evans, and even only 65th last season with the fleet-footed Wall. What makes the offense so devastating is Cal's collection of athletes. This is in no way intended to imply that Cal's teams at Memphis were not talented, but a lot of the supposed superiority of the offense is actually the result of it being employed against teams that just couldn't handle Memphis' athletes in Conference USA. The SEC wasn't all that spectacular last year, either. Believe it or not, I actually think Cal's greatest strength is as a defensive coach. His teams over the past few years have consistently been rated in the top 10 if not the top 5 in defensive efficiency. I actually think the consistency on the defensive end has had more to do with his impressive win totals (vacated wins, aside) over the past few seasons than his supposed mastery of the "dribble-drive" offense.

RoyalBlue08
08-04-2010, 03:26 PM
I think this is a great point. Cal's offense actually hasn't been all that fast paced or fast break dependent. Even with a string of quick point guards in Rose, Evans, and Wall, Cal's offense has been ranked 87th in adjusted pace with Rose, 147th with Evans, and even only 65th last season with the fleet-footed Wall. What makes the offense so devastating is Cal's collection of athletes. This is in no way intended to imply that Cal's teams at Memphis were not talented, but a lot of the supposed superiority of the offense is actually the result of it being employed against teams that just couldn't handle Memphis' athletes in Conference USA. The SEC wasn't all that spectacular last year, either. Believe it or not, I actually think Cal's greatest strength is as a defensive coach. His teams over the past few years have consistently been rated in the top 10 if not the top 5 in defensive efficiency. I actually think the consistency on the defensive end has had more to do with his impressive win totals (vacated wins, aside) over the past few seasons than his supposed mastery of the "dribble-drive" offense.

I definitely agree. Although I doubt Cal would like to advertise this as much. Being a good defensive coach can be a turn off for some recruits!

davidrosenhp
08-05-2010, 12:02 PM
A bit picky but the phrase always bothered me (I blame Vitale) but how else do you drive if not dribbling? Moving without the ball and cutting are not driving - these are motions to get open. The term should just be "drive" or "penetrate."

BD80
08-05-2010, 08:52 PM
I think this is a great point. Cal's offense actually hasn't been all that fast paced or fast break dependent. Even with a string of quick point guards in Rose, Evans, and Wall, Cal's offense has been ranked 87th in adjusted pace with Rose, 147th with Evans, and even only 65th last season with the fleet-footed Wall. What makes the offense so devastating is Cal's collection of athletes. This is in no way intended to imply that Cal's teams at Memphis were not talented, but a lot of the supposed superiority of the offense is actually the result of it being employed against teams that just couldn't handle Memphis' athletes in Conference USA. The SEC wasn't all that spectacular last year, either. Believe it or not, I actually think Cal's greatest strength is as a defensive coach. His teams over the past few years have consistently been rated in the top 10 if not the top 5 in defensive efficiency. I actually think the consistency on the defensive end has had more to do with his impressive win totals (vacated wins, aside) over the past few seasons than his supposed mastery of the "dribble-drive" offense.

Wouldn't defensive efficiency also reduce "adjusted pace?"

A HUGE part of successful driving is to teach the other players to rotate back to stop a fast break. For us, Nolan and Kyle (and Kyrie) will have to be guarding the back door while the others are attacking the basket.


A bit picky but the phrase always bothered me (I blame Vitale) but how else do you drive if not dribbling? Moving without the ball and cutting are not driving - these are motions to get open. The term should just be "drive" or "penetrate."

see: Hansbrough, Tyler

greybeard
08-06-2010, 10:17 AM
A bit picky but the phrase always bothered me (I blame Vitale) but how else do you drive if not dribbling? Moving without the ball and cutting are not driving - these are motions to get open. The term should just be "drive" or "penetrate."

Dribbble drive might be different than drive or penetrate.

Many people play the game off catching in a position in which they are dangerous, that is, in a position from which you must defend their ability to shoot it and know that you will if given space and time. That sets up the drive.

Then there are players who eschew the so-called triple threat position, put the thing on the floor, and start their dance, have leeway to transverse an area of the court, saying to the defender, actually the entire defense, "I'm coming and you will not be able to stop me;" I'm either getting to the goal or dropping to an unguarded teammate who will."

That might be "dribble drive," which seems to be a style that the "point guard" position allows for in many sets or offensive approaches, assuming a team has a talent at that position that it wants to exploit. If there are several players on the court with such leeway, more or less, the offense becomes focused on finding ways to clear spaces around the rim where they are likely to finish when starting somewhere proximate to where they will be getting the ball, and doing their dance. Where they get the ball will vary, and is orchestrated to some extent. Then, if you have a post player like Cousins, or a mid-range player like the captain Rose's year, you have other offensive concepts built in to the offense as well, or so it seems.

By the way, in Wall's case, Cal liked in important moments to have him off the ball to start with, sprint from one side of the court to another coming off a high screen on the side he was cutting towards and leaving his defender in the dust and the screen defender incapable of moving off a dead stop to even think about keeping up with him. Saw that happen at the end of several games. thought it was brilliant of Cal.