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View Full Version : Reactions to the James/Bosh/Wade deal



Lord Ash
07-24-2010, 11:25 AM
Howdy all,

So I was away during the whole LeBron thing (with JJ in Florence! Well, okay, not "with" but you get what I mean...) and was very interested to read about it when I came back.

Now, full disclaimer; I have not seen the ESPN bit, and will not see it; I just don't care THAT much, and I accept it might have been a bit "much."

However, I am really irritated by what seems to be a fairly widespread reaction of "OH, Lebron is scared/too wimpy/not man enough to want to do it on his own... a real best-ever would NEVER team up with other players like this!"

This aggravates me to no end. For years we complain about conceited athletes who only care about their contracts, athletes who only care about their own stats, etc etc etc. Suddenly you have a player who accepts a less-than-max contract in order to play with a better TEAM and to help the TEAM win, at the COST possibly of individual accolades... and he gets attacked for this? Jordan (who got a LOT of help being "the best ever" from guys like Pippen and Kerr) bashed James for not wanting to go it alone, for not trying to prove he was the best ever... so what? How on earth is not being fixated on elevating individual status a BAD thing? How is it that being willing to share the spotlight in order to win a BAD thing?

I am just so irritated that, when a player of such magnitude cares more about titles and good teammates than individual accolades, status, and money, suddenly people start bashing him for it... and I feel like my irritation is magnified by my being a Duke fan, where TEAM is all that matters, not individual glory and status.

Anyone else having this reaction to this whole debacle?

wtm001
07-24-2010, 11:45 AM
Yeah, everyone is saying he shouldn't have left Cleveland and he shouldn't have had "The Decision" on live television. I'm sorry, but didn't that raise over a million dollars for charity? Didn't it entertain the ten million people that watched it? I know I was watching it, I was actually looking forward to it the night they announced it. Everyone knows that Chris Bosh and Dwayne Wade are really close friends of his. If you had a chance to play a game you love with two of your best friends would you? Does anyone else feel the same way?

Osiagledknarf
07-24-2010, 12:11 PM
My reaction to this is much as the same as you.

When people say that when he joined Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh in Miami is that, " he is going there because he can't win it by himself", "his legacy will not be the same if he doesn't win one by himself", etc... I question the people who make these statements if there even basketball fans or pay attention the history of the game. You look at the greats of all time; Larry Bird had 3 HOF players along side with Robert Parrish, Dennis Johnson and Kevin Mchale. Michael Jordan, who everyone seems to be comparing him to had Scottie Pippen, Steve Kerr and Dennis Rodman. Magic Johnson had Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Bill Russell had Bob Cousy, Sam Jones, John Havlicek, Tommy Heinsohn. Kobe had Shaq and now has Pau Gasol... And the list goes on and on. No one has ever won a title on there own.

Lebron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh are going down to Miami to do one thing, win championships. We have athletes in all sports would rather put up the numbers and be the "me" guy. These guys are putting there personal affairs aside and going and playing the game like it should always be played for, to win. Are people angry at this out of jealousy?

Lebron was in a no win situation here. If he were to have stayed with the Cavs, it would have been that he was selfish and wanted all the lime life to himself, must like the playoffs when he passed the ball to Donyell Marshall who was wide open in the corner and yet still got critized. This isn't like Allen Iverson who is a "me guy all the way.

Now as for the ESPN special and pub going up to it; It could have been handled a lot better, and this why I think he is getting some of this uneccessary blacklash. And is why I think Dan Gilbert had the response that he had.

As far as him going to Maimi though. I have no problem with it. Put yourself in his shoes. Would you rather play with Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh or Delonte West and Mo Williams?

Memphis Devil
07-24-2010, 12:18 PM
I don't think for a minute that someone who has an hour long primetime special to announce where he has decided to play basketball for the next 6 years isn't trying to elevate his personal status. Many people, myself included, think that it is a bit of a cop out going to Miami. The self proclaimed "King" of basketball should be building a championship team around himself and not be just another piece on Dwayne Wade's team. The amount of money that he "gave up" by not taking a max deal is peanuts compared to what he will earn off the court anyways.

I personally hope that they never win an NBA Championship...I hate dynasties. Duke basketball excluded, of course!

Lord Ash
07-24-2010, 12:55 PM
Wait, how is it Dwayne Wade's team? Because he was there first? Did you call this years Duke team "Jon Scheyer's" team and say that Nolan and Kyle were just hangers-on because they came afterwards? A team is, almost by definition, everyones team, unless there is a real flaw in how it works.

No one is saying that James didn't use the ESPN thing to elevate himself... although honestly I don't think it elevated him much... he is pretty much already in the stratosphere, and an hour show isn't really much to add to that.

As for a cop out, I just don't see it. I don't get how wanting to play with good teammates and friends and winning titles while accepting a lower-than-max contract is the WRONG thing to do, but staying in Cleveland with a management you don't totally trust to enable you to win a title while pursuing individual glory is the RIGHT thing to do. I don't get it.

COYS
07-24-2010, 01:01 PM
I don't think for a minute that someone who has an hour long primetime special to announce where he has decided to play basketball for the next 6 years isn't trying to elevate his personal status. Many people, myself included, think that it is a bit of a cop out going to Miami. The self proclaimed "King" of basketball should be building a championship team around himself and not be just another piece on Dwayne Wade's team. The amount of money that he "gave up" by not taking a max deal is peanuts compared to what he will earn off the court anyways.

I personally hope that they never win an NBA Championship...I hate dynasties. Duke basketball excluded, of course!

Personally, if I were paid a whole bunch of money per year to play a sport that I loved with two of my best friends who also happen to be two of the best players in the NBA and compete for championships while chillin' on the beaches near Miami, I'd probably take that, too. When Jordan sat out a year, the Bulls won 55 games. 55!!! The Cavs without Lebron would never have come close to that mark. Jordan and the Bulls benefited from better coaching and a far, far, far better supporting cast. The idea that Jordan went "at it alone" is nuts.

As for Lebron schmoozing for the camera for an hour, I would have done the same thing. He probably got paid hansomely to do that. Why turn down good money when simply chatting on TV for an hour will make you lots more? Who cares what some people think? They're going to hate you, anyway. Also, Lebron didn't owe anything to Cleveland or Ohio at all and it I'm tired of people talking as if he did. I left my hometown for college and have never looked back. Lebron is still young. Why not try living in Miami and winning with your best friends?

Of course, this is my attitude as a Hawks fan who knew we had no chance at Lebron. I was resigned to the fact that we'd probably be paying Joe Johnson more than another team was going to be paying Lebron, and so I really didn't care where he ended up.

just a lemma
07-24-2010, 01:08 PM
What he did to the people of Cleveland is unconscionable. To say they worshipped him is an understatement. It's okay to leave for Miami to play with your friends and win championships. Free agency is a right. However, by leaving by way of extremely public self-aggrandizing spectacle, he slapped his home town--remember, he is a native of the area--in the face.

Consider the following facts.

Recall that he refused to meet with Tom Izzo when Cleveland was thinking about hiring him. Is that any way to show respect to the franchise and the city?

Recall that he was granted extraordinary privileges by the team. The Cavs built their team practice facility near his home for his benefit. It did not matter how far away the coaches or the other players lived from the practice facility. Only LeBron mattered. His friends road on the team's chartered plane and got the owners' court-side seats during the playoffs. The Cavs even put his friends on the team payroll. It is rumored that Chicago's refusal to grant the same privileges eliminated the Bulls as a contender for the self-proclaimed King's services. Is that any way to show respect to the franchise and the city?

Recall that he started this 2010 talk a long time ago, limiting the Cavs' ability to improve the team. Again, while free agency is his right, by publicly talking about leaving two seasons ago, it became harder for the Cavs' to attract free agents. They were forced to improve by cap-killing trades for older veterans (good young players are usually not available). The team mortgaged its entire future trying to keep LeBron happy.

Recall that LeBron wanted Larry Hughes, Shaq, Mo Williams, et al. on his team. He can't request them and then complain when he can't win with them.

Recall that the Cavs have been the NBA's best regular season team for the last two seasons. Sure, they did not win the championship, but has the best player in the NBA ever left the team with the best record in the NBA via free agency? Is that not a huge slap in the face of his teammates? I think this is an important point to consider if you want to defend LeBron's decision as an unselfish one motivated by the desire to win. He was already on the best team or close to the best team in the NBA. It's one thing to want to leave your team when it barely makes the playoffs or is stuck in the lottery. It's a whole other matter to leave a team that has had the best record in the NBA for the past two seasons. THAT is fear. The kind of fear that true winners would not have. When people say that Jordan, Bird, and Magic would not have done what LeBron did, they are not saying that Jordan, Bird, and Magic would not have wanted good teammates. They are saying that Jordan, Bird, and Magic would never have believed that they could not win the next season with a team that had the best record in the league.

Recall that the Cavs often suffered in crunch time because of Mike Brown's deficiencies as an offensive coach. Was it not LeBron who was instrumental in the hiring of Brown? Didn't the Cavs keep Brown around longer than they should have because they felt that LeBron wanted him to be the coach? Every summer, there were rumblings about the Cavs' coaching situation because Brown would be exposed in the playoffs. Those same stories would always mention that a firing was unlikely because LeBron likes Brown.

The people of Cleveland were angry because they were given false hope. They never thought that he would reject his hometown on national television---not after the team and the city spent the better part of the decade catering to his every whim and need. People still would have been upset if he had left without the TV special, but they would not be nearly as angry as they are now.

In the end, I think that the Cavs should not have given into LeBron's every whim. They should have kept his friends away from the team. They should have fired Brown earlier and hired the best man available. They should have planned for the long run when LeBron signed his extension instead of crippling the team's flexibility by trading for bad contracts to keep LeBron happy every year. They should have kept LeBron's ego from spinning out of control. A lot of should haves...

Recall that Boozer was reviled in Cleveland despite the fact that 1) he was offered significantly more money by Utah 2) his coach Paul Silas publicly displayed his contempt for him--at one point referring to him as a see-you-next-Tuesday to reporters 3) his was told by the team that they expected him to be a role player and nothing more 4) he was not a Cleveland native 5) he was a second rounder who had the reason to want greater financial security 6) the supposed handshake deal he may or may not have had with the Cavs was ILLEGAL under the collective bargaining agreement.

There are simply no such mitigating circumstances for LeBron.

COYS
07-24-2010, 01:19 PM
What he did to the people of Cleveland is unconscionable. To say they worshipped him is an understatement. It's okay to leave for Miami to play with your friends and win championships. Free agency is a right. However, by leaving by way of extremely public self-aggrandizing spectacle, he slapped his home town--remember, he is a native of the area--in the face.

Consider the following facts.

Recall that he refused to meet with Tom Izzo when Cleveland was thinking about hiring him. Is that any way to show respect to the franchise and the city?

Recall that he was granted extraordinary privileges by the team. The Cavs built their team practice facility near his home for his benefit. It did not matter how far away the coaches or the other players lived from the practice facility. Only LeBron mattered. His friends road on the team's chartered plane and got the owners' court-side seats during the playoffs. The Cavs even put his friends on the team payroll. It is rumored that Chicago's refusal to grant the same privileges eliminated the Bulls as a contender for the self-proclaimed King's services. Is that any way to show respect to the franchise and the city?

Recall that he started this 2010 talk a long time ago, limiting the Cavs' ability to improve the team. Again, while free agency is his right, by publicly talking about leaving two seasons ago, it became harder for the Cavs' to attract free agents. They were forced to improve by cap-killing trades for older veterans (good young players are usually not available). The team mortgaged its entire future trying to keep LeBron happy.

Recall that LeBron wanted Larry Hughes, Shaq, Mo Williams, et al. on his team. He can't request them and then complain when he can't win with them.

Recall that the Cavs have been the NBA's best regular season team for the last two seasons. Sure, they did not win the championship, but has the best player in the NBA ever left the team with the best record in the NBA via free agency? Is that not a huge slap in the face of his teammates? I think this is an important point to consider if you want to defend LeBron's decision as an unselfish one motivated by the desire to win. He was already on the best team or close to the best team in the NBA. It's one thing to want to leave your team when it barely makes the playoffs or is stuck in the lottery. It's a whole other matter to leave a team that has had the best record in the NBA for the past two seasons. THAT is fear. The kind of fear that true winners would not have. When people say that Jordan, Bird, and Magic would not have done what LeBron did, they are not saying that Jordan, Bird, and Magic would not have wanted good teammates. They are saying that Jordan, Bird, and Magic would never have believed that they could not win the next season with a team that had the best record in the league.

Recall that the Cavs often suffered in crunch time because of Mike Brown's deficiencies as an offensive coach. Was it not LeBron who was instrumental in the hiring of Brown? Didn't the Cavs keep Brown around longer than they should have because they felt that LeBron wanted him to be the coach? Every summer, there were rumblings about the Cavs' coaching situation because Brown would be exposed in the playoffs. Those same stories would always mention that a firing was unlikely because LeBron likes Brown.

The people of Cleveland were angry because they were given false hope. They never thought that he would reject his hometown on national television---not after the team and the city spent the better part of the decade catering to his every whim and need. People still would have been upset if he had left without the TV special, but they would not be nearly as angry as they are now.

In the end, I think that the Cavs should not have given into LeBron's every whim. They should have kept his friends away from the team. They should have fired Brown earlier and hired the best man available. They should have planned for the long run when LeBron signed his extension instead of crippling the team's flexibility by trading for bad contracts to keep LeBron happy every year. They should have kept LeBron's ego from spinning out of control. A lot of should haves...

Recall that Boozer was reviled in Cleveland despite the fact that 1) he was offered significantly more money by Utah 2) his coach Paul Silas publicly displayed his contempt for him--at one point referring to him as a see-you-next-Tuesday to reporters 3) his was told by the team that they expected him to be a role player and nothing more 4) he was not a Cleveland native 5) he was a second rounder who had the reason to want greater financial security 6) the supposed handshake deal he may or may not have had with the Cavs was ILLEGAL under the collective bargaining agreement.

There are simply no such mitigating circumstances for LeBron.

Also recall that the Cleveland Cavaliers profited ENORMOUSLY from Lebron's time in Cleveland. They were hansomely rewarded with some of the best basketball Cleveland has ever seen. This attitude is actually the one that I disagree with the most. I would have absolutely LOVE, LOVE, LOVED it if the Hawks had has the opportunity to cater to Lebron for 7 seasons, no matter how it ended. I would not have minded treating him as a prima donna nor given in to his every whim. Sometimes you have to do that to keep someone happy. I think Cleveland made the mistake of trying to "win now" starting in 2005 rather than building a young team to surround Lebron with, but that is just as much the fault of the Cavs brass as it is Lebron's. Also, if they felt that Brown was really the wrong man for the job, they should have fired him with the logic that Lebron will leave if the team doesn't win big and Brown's not going to win big so why care what Lebron thinks of him?

What I would have given up to allow the Hawks the opportunity to make the same mistakes (and you KNOW the Hawks would have messed up with Lebron)! I understand why Clevelanders are hurt, but Lebron is a professional athlete . . . a coveted asset for any basketball franchise . . . who felt like he got a better offer somewhere else. Why would he meet with Izzo if he really didn't have any interest in being back in Cleveland? That's a waste of everyone's time. It would have been nice if he had considered how Clevelanders would feel, but he didn't have any obligation to and it wouldn't have eased their pain much, anyway. People would probably just call him a phony for saying things like "I will always call Cleveland home but it's time for me to try something new."

MisterRoddy
07-24-2010, 01:38 PM
Whoa there guys, it's Dwyane's team, this coming from
a heat fan.

Channing
07-24-2010, 01:47 PM
I have no problem with Lebron going to Miami to play with Wade and Bosh. If he wants to team up with them, great.

My problem is with Lebron's pesonality. Yes, he raised four million dollars for the boys and girls club. Can't argue with that. However, the decision was the most self absorbed display I have ever seen. It got great ratings, but that is because (in my mind) all we were allowed to think about for the weeks leading up to the Lebronference was "where is he going". The city of Cleveland profited from his time there, but I think he at least owed them a call (from him personally, not one of his cronies) saying "thanks, its been fun, its time to move on."

I could go on and on about Lebron, but for a guy who came into the league with a halo around his head and about as much good will as anyone out there, he has really turned into a villain. It seems every media source I am reading is blasting him, not for going to Miami, but for the way he handled it.

As an aside, I dont fault MJ or Magic for what they said. They were asked a question by a reporter. They both said they wouldnt have done it, but it was a different time. I dont see how that is so bad.

Lord Ash
07-24-2010, 02:04 PM
I don't know about "villain." That might be a bit over the top.

Also, let me ask... if an athlete makes a big spectacle, how does responsibility fall? Totally on the shoulders of the athlete? Should the media share some responsibility? Should the FANS, who gobble this stuff up, bear some responsibility? I don't know, I have a very hard time faulting an athlete for being given the chance to do something like this.

As for honor and hometown and all of that... please. Having worked in pro sports for a bunch of years, both on the team side and the agent/player side, I can tell you that loyalty is a very rare thing, and frankly less common on the part of franchises than on the part of players. Lebron gave a lot to Cleveland, Cleveland gave a lot to Lebron. I don't think we can fault him for leaving a team that, frankly, no one cared about for most of history until Lebron arrived.

Channing
07-24-2010, 02:55 PM
I don't know about "villain." That might be a bit over the top.

....

I don't think we can fault him for leaving a team that, frankly, no one cared about for most of history until Lebron arrived.

I personally view him as a villian. For the past few years I have always pulled for Lebron in the playoffs and will certainly be pulling for him to lose as many games as possible from hear on out. In my very unscientific survey of other NBA fans, including fans of many different teams, I found similar sentiment. I have not met one person who said they will not root for Lebron or the Heat in light of their new team. In my mind, having everyone root against them makes them villains.

I also said that I dont begrudge him leaving Cleveland. He didnt owe them any more years. I think he owed Dan Gilbert a telephone call to say "Dan, I made up my mind and I'm leaving. Thanks for the 7 years" rather than having one of his friends who freeloaded off the Cavs for the last 7 years call Gilbert 5 minutes before the self aggrandizing joke** that was the Decision.

**The ESPN Ombudsman (sp?) agrees with me that this was a ridiculous program.

Cali-Duke
07-24-2010, 06:17 PM
I love that he took less money to be part of a team. I always wish for this to happen, and it usually only happens when players are past their primes. Also, as another poster mentioned, millions of dollars were raised for charity, so an ESPN special, IMO, was a great idea. It is also his right to leave Cleveland. I'm sorry, but when owners cut players that have been around the franchise for years as their productivity starts to diminish, where is the loyalty? Is there a similar amount of outrage? No, it's a business, plain and simple, and the idea that he owed anything to the organization no matter what privileges they may have given him does not make sense to me.

My issue with this whole thing is that LeBron didn't even call the coaches/organizations to thank them for their time/expenses spent on him. In every job, it is a common courtesy to thank employers after interviews and job offers for their interest and let them know your final decision personally. This is the reason why I was pissed about Harrison Barnes' recruitment and is why I thought LeBron was wrong for what he did.

Now, I'm not a fan of the whole spectacle of his signing. I'd prefer what Kevin Durant or Kobe Bryant did (signing an extension without any coverage). But I don't disagree with anything he did other than not letting the organizations know his decision prior to his announcement.

brevity
07-24-2010, 06:40 PM
People (no one on this thread, yet) who compare LeBron James to Art Modell deserve to be smacked around a bit so they may return to their senses. I'll bring my own crowbar.

LeBron James, no matter how savior-like, is only a player. He can stay, or leave, or get traded, or retire, or get injured. He does not have the ability to take the Cavaliers away from Cleveland. Last I checked, that city still has 3 major league sports franchises.

And while we're conducting this autopsy of Free Agent Frenzy 2010, let me point out that many of us (myself included) were wrong when we thought that LeBron's decision would hold up the process for all of the other free agents. It didn't. While he stayed quiet, they thought "To hell with LeBron" and made their choices. Sure, Chris Bosh switched teams with the hope that LeBron would join him, but so did Amare Stoudemire. Ultimately, they had to look out for themselves instead of waiting for The Decision.

So, as it turns out, he doesn't even have that power. I can't help but think that LeBron's place in the NBA hierarchy took a hit this summer. We may never know, but I wouldn't be surprised if league insiders whispered that he'd lost a lot of respect amongst his peers.

sagegrouse
07-24-2010, 06:58 PM
What he did to the people of Cleveland is unconscionable. To say they worshipped him is an understatement. It's okay to leave for Miami to play with your friends and win championships. Free agency is a right. However, by leaving by way of extremely public self-aggrandizing spectacle, he slapped his home town--remember, he is a native of the area--in the face.

Consider the following facts.

Recall that he refused to meet with Tom Izzo when Cleveland was thinking about hiring him. Is that any way to show respect to the franchise and the city?

Recall that he was granted extraordinary privileges by the team. The Cavs built their team practice facility near his home for his benefit. It did not matter how far away the coaches or the other players lived from the practice facility. Only LeBron mattered. His friends road on the team's chartered plane and got the owners' court-side seats during the playoffs. The Cavs even put his friends on the team payroll. It is rumored that Chicago's refusal to grant the same privileges eliminated the Bulls as a contender for the self-proclaimed King's services. Is that any way to show respect to the franchise and the city?

Recall that he started this 2010 talk a long time ago, limiting the Cavs' ability to improve the team. Again, while free agency is his right, by publicly talking about leaving two seasons ago, it became harder for the Cavs' to attract free agents. They were forced to improve by cap-killing trades for older veterans (good young players are usually not available). The team mortgaged its entire future trying to keep LeBron happy.

Recall that LeBron wanted Larry Hughes, Shaq, Mo Williams, et al. on his team. He can't request them and then complain when he can't win with them.

Recall that the Cavs have been the NBA's best regular season team for the last two seasons. Sure, they did not win the championship, but has the best player in the NBA ever left the team with the best record in the NBA via free agency? Is that not a huge slap in the face of his teammates? I think this is an important point to consider if you want to defend LeBron's decision as an unselfish one motivated by the desire to win. He was already on the best team or close to the best team in the NBA. It's one thing to want to leave your team when it barely makes the playoffs or is stuck in the lottery. It's a whole other matter to leave a team that has had the best record in the NBA for the past two seasons. THAT is fear. The kind of fear that true winners would not have. When people say that Jordan, Bird, and Magic would not have done what LeBron did, they are not saying that Jordan, Bird, and Magic would not have wanted good teammates. They are saying that Jordan, Bird, and Magic would never have believed that they could not win the next season with a team that had the best record in the league.

Recall that the Cavs often suffered in crunch time because of Mike Brown's deficiencies as an offensive coach. Was it not LeBron who was instrumental in the hiring of Brown? Didn't the Cavs keep Brown around longer than they should have because they felt that LeBron wanted him to be the coach? Every summer, there were rumblings about the Cavs' coaching situation because Brown would be exposed in the playoffs. Those same stories would always mention that a firing was unlikely because LeBron likes Brown.

The people of Cleveland were angry because they were given false hope. They never thought that he would reject his hometown on national television---not after the team and the city spent the better part of the decade catering to his every whim and need. People still would have been upset if he had left without the TV special, but they would not be nearly as angry as they are now.

In the end, I think that the Cavs should not have given into LeBron's every whim. They should have kept his friends away from the team. They should have fired Brown earlier and hired the best man available. They should have planned for the long run when LeBron signed his extension instead of crippling the team's flexibility by trading for bad contracts to keep LeBron happy every year. They should have kept LeBron's ego from spinning out of control. A lot of should haves...

Recall that Boozer was reviled in Cleveland despite the fact that 1) he was offered significantly more money by Utah 2) his coach Paul Silas publicly displayed his contempt for him--at one point referring to him as a see-you-next-Tuesday to reporters 3) his was told by the team that they expected him to be a role player and nothing more 4) he was not a Cleveland native 5) he was a second rounder who had the reason to want greater financial security 6) the supposed handshake deal he may or may not have had with the Cavs was ILLEGAL under the collective bargaining agreement.

There are simply no such mitigating circumstances for LeBron.

This wasn't a very good movie the first time I saw it. Now two weeks later, we are discussing it again.

Can we suppose for a moment that Lebron never intended to re-sign with Cleveland? [Is this a "lemma?"] How does that affect the points in your post?

1. There was probably no good way to say goodbye without incurring the wrath of the fans there.

2. Refusing to meet with Tom Izzo makes a lot of sense in retrospect and should have been a warning to the Cavs.

3. The fact that the club gave him (and his friends) everything he asked for certainly elevates the sense of hurt, but why does it make him a bad guy that he decided to play there only six years instead of a career. And remember, his first few years were in Cleveland only because the Cavs won the lottery.

4. If his remarks about his uncertain future in Cleveland hurt the Cavs in the free agent market, what do you expect him to do? Lie and say he would be in Cleveland his entire career?

5. Does jumping ship as the best player on the team with the best regular season record appear odd? You bet! But if he didn't want to remain in Cleveland, why should it matter? I don't believe he owed anything to his teammates beyond his exceptional play the past few years. BTW, does anyone really think he would have stayed in Cleveland had the Cavs won the NBA title?

6. Was it Lebron's fault that he liked and supported the head coach, even if Brown had deficiencies? What does this have to do with the price of tea in China (or in Miami)?

7. Truthfully, the "false hope" the Cavs were given was totally in their own mind. Of course, Lebron said nice things about Cleveland. JJ said nice things about Orlando and vice versa: they're all in showbiz. The real sentiment (lets not discuss "revealed preference") is in the decisions people make. I was rather surprised that Orlando re-signed JJ because I totally discounted the "nice things" both said.

I was a Cleveland Indians fan growing up, so I have a soft spot for the city, which has rebounded wonderfully from it low point. But whose to blame Lebron if he chooses warm weather, Miami Beach, and low taxes over.... Well, never mind. Who knows? Maybe all his hometown friends in Akron wanted to move to Miami?

sagegrouse
'Long posts seem inevitably to sound arrogant, so I apologize if this seems a bit harsh. I tried to keep it respectful'

SmartDevil
07-24-2010, 07:29 PM
I wish we did not have the Duke basketball (and at meaningful times, other Duke sports) board cluttered with completely-unrelated-to-Duke posts regarding the NBA. If we're talking substance about Duke players and the draft or how Duke grads are doing in the NBA those posts are germane. But talking about LeBron....or other players with no nexus to Duke doesn't belong here. Some other boards require it to be placed elsewhere in their forums. This board, the best of the Duke basketball boards, should also.

Indoor66
07-24-2010, 08:08 PM
I wish we did not have the Duke basketball (and at meaningful times, other Duke sports) board cluttered with completely-unrelated-to-Duke posts regarding the NBA. If we're talking substance about Duke players and the draft or how Duke grads are doing in the NBA those posts are germane. But talking about LeBron....or other players with no nexus to Duke doesn't belong here. Some other boards require it to be placed elsewhere in their forums. This board, the best of the Duke basketball boards, should also.

Well said, I concur. This thread, IMO, is Off-Topic material.

Duvall
07-24-2010, 08:23 PM
Well said, I concur. This thread, IMO, is Off-Topic material.

I suppose we must make room for the next discussion of playing time and hypothetical rotations.

muzikfrk75
07-24-2010, 10:55 PM
I suppose we must make room for the next discussion of playing time and hypothetical rotations.

And 30 more pages on Austin Rivers, don't forget about that! ;-)

moonpie23
07-24-2010, 11:10 PM
lebron owes cleveland alright....he owes them a quick kick in the pants for letting paxon try to lowball boozer and then not sucking it up and matching the offer when the deal went bad.......and for not getting some freaking better players to help him out.......


oh, and for not telling West to stay the eff away from the stadium for game 5....

he DID owe them.....but sticking with that crap organization for as long as he did....i'd say he's paid in full....

Lord Ash
07-25-2010, 01:12 AM
I wish we did not have the Duke basketball (and at meaningful times, other Duke sports) board cluttered with completely-unrelated-to-Duke posts regarding the NBA. If we're talking substance about Duke players and the draft or how Duke grads are doing in the NBA those posts are germane. But talking about LeBron....or other players with no nexus to Duke doesn't belong here. Some other boards require it to be placed elsewhere in their forums. This board, the best of the Duke basketball boards, should also.

James, Bosh, and Wade all play for Coach K on the US Olympic team, a team that has won championships recently because of a somehow-familiar de-emphasis on individual stars and more focus on team play, to the point that Kobe himself was saying "Let me define my role by my DEFENSE (of all things!)" I believe that makes it at least relevant enough of a national, big-interest, same sport, "what-is-true-success-in-basketball?" story to discuss on a Duke basketball forum:)

toooskies
07-25-2010, 02:32 AM
The super-team in Miami is quite interesting. Remember when Jon Scheyer decided not to play at Illinois, even though he grew up there and was coached by the brother of Illinois' head coach? Honestly, the situation played out very much like many college recruitments do. It's very strange how different the perspective becomes when you can treat pro basketball so very differently.

Being a former Clevelander, I both am upset about Lebron's departure for the city and also understand him leaving. One influencing factor in me choosing Duke for my higher education is that I wanted to see a team I root for win a championship-- and Duke obliged in 2001 at the end of my Freshman year. I've lived in Durham ever since, although I still root for the Cleveland teams.

The thing that upsets people most, really, is that individuals/consumers/fans, despite making it possible for athletes to play a game professionally, have exactly zero negotiating power in the final equation. There's nothing anyone could do except hold up posters imploring LBJ to stay. Fans are once again disposable to the players on the court, because there will always be new fans in a new place.

And at the end of the day, to do that means Lebron wasn't really a Northeast Ohioan like everyone in Cleveland presumed he was. Clevelanders built up a myth that he was like everyone still there. He got a tattoo of the word "Loyalty". He gave no indication he wasn't completely comfortable and happy there, except his teams kept losing in the playoffs (although the losses could all be traced back to his own poor play).

Other than catching lightning in a bottle and magically growing a second banana, Cleveland couldn't have done anything better. Remember, they didn't give up a single player of consequence to acquire their current best players (Mo Williams, Antawn Jamison, Shaq). They haven't had a single draft pick pan out-- which is an organizational problem, but they only had one top 10 pick since Lebron, so that's not a great tragedy. They haven't been able to sign a free agent of any value because Lebron wouldn't say whether he'd be around for their entire contract.

Finally, Cleveland had prepared itself to lose out to Lebron's other interests. Be the superstar in Chicago, since he rooted for the Bulls as a kid? Sure. Try to be the "global icon" from New York (even the Nets)? Sure. Jump to LA, or demand to play in Dallas? Possible but unlikely. Cleveland thought that Lebron's aspirations were to accomplish something; to achieve something; to grow his individual star, because he has always embraced that individual star.

No-- he believes he wasn't getting what he was deserving in Cleveland, which was automatic championships for being the best player in the league. He didn't believe in himself enough to make something worthwhile in those other cities. Don't disguise this as "embracing team play", because he signed up in Miami when he only knew 3 of his future teammates. (And while they're friends, it's hard to say that they're closer than the entourage he's had since high school-- these aren't his inner circle buddies.) He knew he wasn't good enough, or wasn't willing to work hard enough, to be the Cleveland's Savior, even with everyone else giving their best effort.

But then again, those are pretty big shoes, even for a basketball player.

Indoor66
07-25-2010, 08:15 AM
The super-team in Miami is quite interesting. Remember when Jon Scheyer decided not to play at Illinois, even though he grew up there and was coached by the brother of Illinois' head coach? Honestly, the situation played out very much like many college recruitments do. It's very strange how different the perspective becomes when you can treat pro basketball so very differently.

Being a former Clevelander, I both am upset about Lebron's departure for the city and also understand him leaving. One influencing factor in me choosing Duke for my higher education is that I wanted to see a team I root for win a championship-- and Duke obliged in 2001 at the end of my Freshman year. I've lived in Durham ever since, although I still root for the Cleveland teams.

The thing that upsets people most, really, is that individuals/consumers/fans, despite making it possible for athletes to play a game professionally, have exactly zero negotiating power in the final equation. There's nothing anyone could do except hold up posters imploring LBJ to stay. Fans are once again disposable to the players on the court, because there will always be new fans in a new place.

And at the end of the day, to do that means Lebron wasn't really a Northeast Ohioan like everyone in Cleveland presumed he was. Clevelanders built up a myth that he was like everyone still there. He got a tattoo of the word "Loyalty". He gave no indication he wasn't completely comfortable and happy there, except his teams kept losing in the playoffs (although the losses could all be traced back to his own poor play).

Other than catching lightning in a bottle and magically growing a second banana, Cleveland couldn't have done anything better. Remember, they didn't give up a single player of consequence to acquire their current best players (Mo Williams, Antawn Jamison, Shaq). They haven't had a single draft pick pan out-- which is an organizational problem, but they only had one top 10 pick since Lebron, so that's not a great tragedy. They haven't been able to sign a free agent of any value because Lebron wouldn't say whether he'd be around for their entire contract.

Finally, Cleveland had prepared itself to lose out to Lebron's other interests. Be the superstar in Chicago, since he rooted for the Bulls as a kid? Sure. Try to be the "global icon" from New York (even the Nets)? Sure. Jump to LA, or demand to play in Dallas? Possible but unlikely. Cleveland thought that Lebron's aspirations were to accomplish something; to achieve something; to grow his individual star, because he has always embraced that individual star.

No-- he believes he wasn't getting what he was deserving in Cleveland, which was automatic championships for being the best player in the league. He didn't believe in himself enough to make something worthwhile in those other cities. Don't disguise this as "embracing team play", because he signed up in Miami when he only knew 3 of his future teammates. (And while they're friends, it's hard to say that they're closer than the entourage he's had since high school-- these aren't his inner circle buddies.) He knew he wasn't good enough, or wasn't willing to work hard enough, to be the Cleveland's Savior, even with everyone else giving their best effort.

But then again, those are pretty big shoes, even for a basketball player.

It is also a huge responsibility to lay on one player - one player who is dependent on the decisions of many third parties.

DevilHorns
07-25-2010, 09:05 AM
I haven't heard that Lebron liked Coach Brown. From all the internet stories I've read it seemed clear that they never had a good relationship.

I still don't understand the visceral reaction people now have against Lebron. Is it because no player of this caliber ever made a choice like this (usually the dominoes fall by which team offers the biggest pay-out... this is the first big-time free agent move that I can recall where the superstar player truly makes the "decision")? Or simply because he aired "the Decision"? If people are still irritated about the latter, they need to relax a bit. I think it was done in poor taste, sure, but this by no means should be a reason to vilify him.

Cleveland says that Lebron has no loyalty. Lebron was the Cavs. Sure he had the best season for the past two years, but that was because of him! Let's see how many games the Cavs win next year. I'm guessing much less than the 55-game no-Jordan Bulls team.

I wonder what the Cavs attendance was in the pre-Lebron era, and I wonder what it will be next year? Gilbert can be as mad as he wants because he knows that his franchise is worth half of what it was a month ago. And I think Cleveland is showing its true colors about this. Ritual burnings of his jersey posted on youtube, selling Quitness beer, erasing all the memories in a rash move like a scorned ex-GF.

Memphis Devil
07-25-2010, 01:15 PM
Wait, how is it Dwayne Wade's team? Because he was there first? Did you call this years Duke team "Jon Scheyer's" team and say that Nolan and Kyle were just hangers-on because they came afterwards? A team is, almost by definition, everyones team, unless there is a real flaw in how it works.

No one is saying that James didn't use the ESPN thing to elevate himself... although honestly I don't think it elevated him much... he is pretty much already in the stratosphere, and an hour show isn't really much to add to that.

As for a cop out, I just don't see it. I don't get how wanting to play with good teammates and friends and winning titles while accepting a lower-than-max contract is the WRONG thing to do, but staying in Cleveland with a management you don't totally trust to enable you to win a title while pursuing individual glory is the RIGHT thing to do. I don't get it.

Make no mistake about it, Miami is Dwayne Wade's team and has been since he stepped onto the floor for the first time and has clearly been the best player ever since. This year's Duke team was pretty widely considered Kyle's team as he was viewed as the best player with the most NBA potential. As it turned out, however, this year's Duke team was just that...a team.

As far as going to Miami being a cop out, what you describe as a desire to place more emphasis on the team and play with other great players/great friends, I see as Lebron admitting that he's not quite the man his "King" moniker has led everyone to believe. I don't fault him for not staying in Cleveland at all. In fact, I felt he should/would end up in either Chicago or New Jersey.

Finally, in my opinion, the NBA and it's players are all about individual glory.

SmartDevil
07-25-2010, 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by SmartDevil
I wish we did not have the Duke basketball (and at meaningful times, other Duke sports) board cluttered with completely-unrelated-to-Duke posts regarding the NBA. If we're talking substance about Duke players and the draft or how Duke grads are doing in the NBA those posts are germane. But talking about LeBron....or other players with no nexus to Duke doesn't belong here. Some other boards require it to be placed elsewhere in their forums. This board, the best of the Duke basketball boards, should also.


Lord Ash wrote:
James, Bosh, and Wade all play for Coach K on the US Olympic team, a team that has won championships recently because of a somehow-familiar de-emphasis on individual stars and more focus on team play, to the point that Kobe himself was saying "Let me define my role by my DEFENSE (of all things!)" I believe that makes it at least relevant enough of a national, big-interest, same sport, "what-is-true-success-in-basketball?" story to discuss on a Duke basketball forum
Last edited by Lord Ash; Today at 12:18 AM.




To: Lord Ash

I see your point but we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue. I don't think the nexus is at all strong--your case is a real stretch. And I don't think non-germane NBA stuff belongs in the chief Duke basketball forum. However, I'll grant you that there is some tiny, tiny, tiny connection at least re: Kobe--more of a connection certainly than such NBA topics as trades or playoff chances or NBA thuggery, etc. with no connection whatsoever to Duke which sometimes shows up here.

I hope the mods will either move posts without a real connection to Duke basketball or create a different forum for them.

just a lemma
07-25-2010, 06:05 PM
Also recall that the Cleveland Cavaliers profited ENORMOUSLY from Lebron's time in Cleveland. They were hansomely rewarded with some of the best basketball Cleveland has ever seen. This attitude is actually the one that I disagree with the most. I would have absolutely LOVE, LOVE, LOVED it if the Hawks had has the opportunity to cater to Lebron for 7 seasons, no matter how it ended. I would not have minded treating him as a prima donna nor given in to his every whim. Sometimes you have to do that to keep someone happy. I think Cleveland made the mistake of trying to "win now" starting in 2005 rather than building a young team to surround Lebron with, but that is just as much the fault of the Cavs brass as it is Lebron's. Also, if they felt that Brown was really the wrong man for the job, they should have fired him with the logic that Lebron will leave if the team doesn't win big and Brown's not going to win big so why care what Lebron thinks of him?

What I would have given up to allow the Hawks the opportunity to make the same mistakes (and you KNOW the Hawks would have messed up with Lebron)! I understand why Clevelanders are hurt, but Lebron is a professional athlete . . . a coveted asset for any basketball franchise . . . who felt like he got a better offer somewhere else. Why would he meet with Izzo if he really didn't have any interest in being back in Cleveland? That's a waste of everyone's time. It would have been nice if he had considered how Clevelanders would feel, but he didn't have any obligation to and it wouldn't have eased their pain much, anyway. People would probably just call him a phony for saying things like "I will always call Cleveland home but it's time for me to try something new."

Great points, except I wasn't criticizing his decision to leave. I was criticizing how he left. On that point, we seem to be in agreement. Also, LeBron did not give profit to the Cavs out of the kindness of his heart. The interests of the Cavs and LeBron were aligned on that front. Both wanted to win and winning usually results in more money, fame, and stature for both parties. The Cavs always paid him the most amount of money that they could under the collective bargaining agreement negotiated by LeBron's union. To say that the Cavs should be thankful to him for making them profitable is laughable. The Cavs have paid the luxury tax to keep LeBron happy. I am willing to venture that they were not nearly in the black as the Clippers.

You and I are also in agreement that the Cavs bear a lot of blame (perhaps most?) for WHY LeBron left. Again, my issue is with HOW he left. They did not deserve to be humiliated on national television like this. If you are experiencing difficulty trying to feel sympathy for Dan Gilbert, that's fine. But I hope that you can understand how the Cleveland fans did not deserve to be strung along and then have their hopes crushed like this on national TV.

COYS
07-25-2010, 11:21 PM
Great points, except I wasn't criticizing his decision to leave. I was criticizing how he left. On that point, we seem to be in agreement. Also, LeBron did not give profit to the Cavs out of the kindness of his heart. The interests of the Cavs and LeBron were aligned on that front. Both wanted to win and winning usually results in more money, fame, and stature for both parties. The Cavs always paid him the most amount of money that they could under the collective bargaining agreement negotiated by LeBron's union. To say that the Cavs should be thankful to him for making them profitable is laughable. The Cavs have paid the luxury tax to keep LeBron happy. I am willing to venture that they were not nearly in the black as the Clippers.

You and I are also in agreement that the Cavs bear a lot of blame (perhaps most?) for WHY LeBron left. Again, my issue is with HOW he left. They did not deserve to be humiliated on national television like this. If you are experiencing difficulty trying to feel sympathy for Dan Gilbert, that's fine. But I hope that you can understand how the Cleveland fans did not deserve to be strung along and then have their hopes crushed like this on national TV.

I certainly see your point and do not mean to demean how much Clevelanders may have been hurt by "The Decision." I still maintain, though, that I would take that pain in a heartbeat if it meant Lebron had done the same thing to the Hawks =). And yes, my attitude is probably the result of me being a Hawks fan and therefore generally jealous of most other NBA franchises. =)

CDu
07-26-2010, 08:28 AM
As far as going to Miami being a cop out, what you describe as a desire to place more emphasis on the team and play with other great players/great friends, I see as Lebron admitting that he's not quite the man his "King" moniker has led everyone to believe. I don't fault him for not staying in Cleveland at all. In fact, I felt he should/would end up in either Chicago or New Jersey.

I think think this sums it up. His individual legacy as "The King" takes a hit, as he'll be considered a follower rather than a leader. If anything, I think the decisions boost the legacy of Dwyane Wade, who convinced James and Bosh to follow him to Miami. So in that sense, I agree that New Jersey or Chicago made the most sense (which is slightly ironic in Chicago's case, because Chicago had a better team in place at the time).

But aside from individual legacy issues (which may or may not remain important to James), the only fault for James was in how he handled the decision. His ego required making a spectacle of the decision, and I think he owed it to his previous employer to show them a little more respect than to simply leave them hanging in the wind on national television. He didn't owe anything to Cleveland regarding staying there, but it showed a lack of class and professionalism to not let them know well in advance of his special. Instead of being about class, it was about "the show."

Does it make him a terrible person? No. Just immature, egotistical, and unprofessional. There are certainly worse things that can be said of someone though. And I'm sure that description fits many pro athletes. He just made the mistake of putting it on display for the world to see.

JasonEvans
07-26-2010, 10:45 AM
Originally Posted by SmartDevil
I wish we did not have the Duke basketball (and at meaningful times, other Duke sports) board cluttered with completely-unrelated-to-Duke posts regarding the NBA. If we're talking substance about Duke players and the draft or how Duke grads are doing in the NBA those posts are germane. But talking about LeBron....or other players with no nexus to Duke doesn't belong here. Some other boards require it to be placed elsewhere in their forums. This board, the best of the Duke basketball boards, should also.






To: Lord Ash

I see your point but we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue. I don't think the nexus is at all strong--your case is a real stretch. And I don't think non-germane NBA stuff belongs in the chief Duke basketball forum. However, I'll grant you that there is some tiny, tiny, tiny connection at least re: Kobe--more of a connection certainly than such NBA topics as trades or playoff chances or NBA thuggery, etc. with no connection whatsoever to Duke which sometimes shows up here.

I hope the mods will either move posts without a real connection to Duke basketball or create a different forum for them.

I hope you enjoy the irony in complaining about the board having non-Duke content and then commenting on the comment and adding to the discussion in the very same thread. That some pretty funny stuff, my friend.

The policy of the DBR boards has always been that content that was discussed in the DBR headlines or content that related in any way to college basketball was "on-topic." Over time, virtually all NBA discussion has been deemed on-topic as it often relates to former Duke players in the NBA or former ACC players.

Putting aside the fact that the DBR headlines page talked about NBA free agency several times, making it automatically "on-topic," I think an easy case can be made that NBA free agency is a big deal for former Duke players. The current discussions of NBA free agency have all delved into where Boozer, Redick, Duhon, and Scheyer might end up playing and who their teammates would be. Clearly, a thread about Lebron and his Miami trio could relate to how they will challenge Boozer's Chicago team or JJ and Duhon's Orlando team as well as how Scheyer might fit in as one of their teammates. This relationship holds true of almost any NBA discussion.

There are many mods involved with the DBR boards -- close to 20 of us, I think. It is hard to get us to unanimously agree on much of anything. I would submit that it is very likely we all would agree that NBA conversation belongs firmly on the Main Page of the bulletin boards... especially in the middle of the college basketball off-season when there is just not that much to discuss about college hoops.

A simple suggestion for you -- if you see a thread with a topic that does not interest you, skip it. Most threads are pretty clearly marked.

--Jason "I hope that helped" Evans

beach rev
07-29-2010, 08:38 PM
An interesting take from S.I.'s Joe Posnanski (like me, a native Clevelander). It won't change any of the perspectives on this board, but it does give you some insight.
http://joeposnanski.si.com/2010/07/29/a-boulevard-called-chagrin/?eref=sihp