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JasonEvans
07-23-2010, 08:45 PM
Michigan State star Draymond Green should stick to his first sport.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sctHKvtVNU

--Jason "freaking hysterical" Evans

Newton_14
07-23-2010, 10:38 PM
Even Sir Charles has a better swing than that.. and I cannot believe I just gave Barkley's swing props, but man that was painful to watch. Ouch!!!

ChicagoCrazy84
07-24-2010, 12:00 AM
Even Sir Charles has a better swing than that.. and I cannot believe I just gave Barkley's swing props, but man that was painful to watch. Ouch!!!


Being an accomplished golfer myself (played 2 years at UC Irvine), I love to see those things and dream that I can work with him and make him a respectable golfer. Though seeing Barkley fail miserably with Hank Haney, maybe its a fallacy. As painful and hilarious it is to watch, its great to see these guys get on the golf course.

By the way, I've always wanted to play Gerald Henderson in a head to head match! I think I'd destroy him :D

Edouble
07-24-2010, 12:18 AM
By the way, I've always wanted to play Gerald Henderson in a head to head match! I think I'd destroy him :D

Why? He's a scratch golfer.

ChicagoCrazy84
07-24-2010, 01:32 AM
Why? He's a scratch golfer.

He was in high school. I was a +0.6 at my best in college so on handicap alone, we're basically the same.

oldnavy
07-24-2010, 07:09 AM
He was in high school. I was a +0.6 at my best in college so on handicap alone, we're basically the same.

This just goes to show that golf is a game that is very, very difficult to be good at. You can be extremely atheletic and struggle mightly with this game. I have played for years, and I am finally getting to where I can shoot consistantly in the low 80's which is a tremendous accomplishment for me. So much of the game is mechanics, but even more important is the mind game. Didn't one of the great golfers say that the game is a game of 5 inches, the space between your ears. There is very little that I find natural about the game!! Slowing a swing down with a driver and actually hitting it farther than when I swing really hard... swinging hard with a loft wedge when you are 55 yards away from the green.... it is just counter intuitive in so many ways!!!

weezie
07-24-2010, 08:14 AM
Looks like Sparty, there, was playing with midget clubs. Poor guy!

JohnGalt
07-24-2010, 08:53 AM
Even Sir Charles has a better swing than that.. and I cannot believe I just gave Barkley's swing props, but man that was painful to watch. Ouch!!!

I'm not sure, Booz. I think Sir Charles is still in his own league.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s50K65PNeBU

DevilWearsPrada
07-27-2010, 10:16 AM
Charles is so funny. At least he tries. ROFL

ThePublisher
07-27-2010, 10:23 AM
Barkley is a complete goof.

Being athletic has nothing to do with golf success. It has more to do with flexibility and muscle memory. It there wasn't a ball, I would look at it like nascar and not consider it a sport.
Just like you can be far from the smartest person, and be great at basketball (not duke guys of course).

cato
07-27-2010, 10:33 AM
played 2 years at UC Irvine

Zot zot!

greybeard
07-27-2010, 11:19 AM
Interesting discovery in my work. Everyone has a dominent leg, actually a dominent side. "Dominent" is a bit of a misnomer except that the leg on that side is much more solid to stand on. Here's the rub, even in sitting, for people whose dominent side is very pronounced, they will be able to turn their torso in one direction only by REVERSE PIVOTING, that is, by shifting their weight to their non-dominent leg, in sitting, more particularly to their foot and sit bone. It is not possible for them to do otherwise, at least not without such efforting as to make a swing, rather than a hit with all that comes with it, especially early release, really impossible.

Why? The other side, everything through the torso into their quad, is in a constant state of constriction; that side of the pelvis the pivot point for upper body turning.

Have seen this phenomena in many, many people; a few are extraordinary Yoga teachers who can do whatever pose you ask, or seemingly so. Interesting, huh?

left_hook_lacey
07-27-2010, 12:39 PM
Interesting discovery in my work. Everyone has a dominent leg, actually a dominent side. "Dominent" is a bit of a misnomer except that the leg on that side is much more solid to stand on. Here's the rub, even in sitting, for people whose dominent side is very pronounced, they will be able to turn their torso in one direction only by REVERSE PIVOTING, that is, by shifting their weight to their non-dominent leg, in sitting, more particularly to their foot and sit bone. It is not possible for them to do otherwise, at least not without such efforting as to make a swing, rather than a hit with all that comes with it, especially early release, really impossible.

Why? The other side, everything through the torso into their quad, is in a constant state of constriction; that side of the pelvis the pivot point for upper body turning.

Have seen this phenomena in many, many people; a few are extraordinary Yoga teachers who can do whatever pose you ask, or seemingly so. Interesting, huh?

This is very interesting. Is this the reason I can turn to the left in my office chair and get a huge extension and pop my back, but if I turn to the right, I can barely get to 90* turn? I can rarely get a good back pop on that side, and that's when I put my foot under my desk for extra leverage.

Where can I read more about this? I'm intrigued. I've always been intrigued with the right side vs. the left side of the body and brain. This started at an early age when everyone made fun of me because I threw a baseball and shot a basketball right handed, but shot pool and rifles etc. left-handed.

rasputin
07-27-2010, 12:53 PM
This just goes to show that golf is a game that is very, very difficult to be good at. You can be extremely atheletic and struggle mightly with this game. I have played for years, and I am finally getting to where I can shoot consistantly in the low 80's which is a tremendous accomplishment for me. So much of the game is mechanics, but even more important is the mind game. Didn't one of the great golfers say that the game is a game of 5 inches, the space between your ears. There is very little that I find natural about the game!! Slowing a swing down with a driver and actually hitting it farther than when I swing really hard... swinging hard with a loft wedge when you are 55 yards away from the green.... it is just counter intuitive in so many ways!!!
I think the game of 5 inches between your ears quote is from Bobby Jones.

Mal
07-27-2010, 02:42 PM
Barkley is a complete goof.

Being athletic has nothing to do with golf success. It has more to do with flexibility and muscle memory. It there wasn't a ball, I would look at it like nascar and not consider it a sport.

Since when are flexibility and muscle memory not components of athleticism? Hand-eye coordination is also a huge part of golf. Is that not an athletic trait, too? There's a reason baseball and hockey players dominate the celebrity golf events.

Anyway, my guess is Green had never played before. As a tabula rasa, I bet ChicagoCrazy84's efforts would actually take him a long way. He just needs the basics, as opposed to Barkley, who had years of horrendous habits to fight against.

greybeard
07-27-2010, 03:21 PM
This is very interesting. Is this the reason I can turn to the left in my office chair and get a huge extension and pop my back, but if I turn to the right, I can barely get to 90* turn? I can rarely get a good back pop on that side, and that's when I put my foot under my desk for extra leverage.

Where can I read more about this? I'm intrigued. I've always been intrigued with the right side vs. the left side of the body and brain. This started at an early age when everyone made fun of me because I threw a baseball and shot a basketball right handed, but shot pool and rifles etc. left-handed.

What I presented here is an overview presentation of one of the fundamental discovering Moshe Feldenkrais made and incorporated in what is known as the Feldenkrais Method that distinguishes that method from (1) physical therapy; (2) biomechanics; (3) kinesthesiology; (4) working with a physical trainer.

To get an encapsulation of the Method, which is very difficult to explain given Moshe's broad intellectual and experiential background, I would recommend that you check out semiophysics.com; click on "articles" and read the article about "The Method," which I believe is the very first article.

There is some of the theory, meta information about the work, presented in a book Moshe authored late in his life to provide people unfamiliar with the work an idea of what it entails. The book includes 10 Awareness through Movement lessons (there are over 1000 he created) that contain within them, in addition to directions of simple movements to perform, meta information about the question you ask. Doing lessons you will see immediate changes in the tonus of your body (most are done lying on the floor). The book costs about $14 and is called Awareness Through Movement, which is only one portion of the work involved in the method.

After looking into this, if you would like to purchase a series of CDs that will make some of what the work has to offer in terms of being able to explore systematically the type of issues that have puzzled you, the Feldenkrais Institute of NY has a series of lessons for beginners and others by David Zemach Bersin and another teacher, that are wonderfully useful. They can be purchased as a full set or as a half. The first half is enough to get a feel for whether you think the Method has something you will be interested in pursuing. At $39 for I think it is 10-20 30-45 minute experiences, they are well worth it.

Hope that this helps.

The individualized aspects of the work, called Functional Integration lessons, can be profound depending on the teacher you hook up with. The key is for a teacher to be able to find your precise pattern of movement which is dictated by chronic holding patterns and to take over the work you are doing but do not know it. From there, options to the habitual are available at an excellerated rate to the more generic Awareness Through Movement lessons. Later.

AZLA
07-27-2010, 03:30 PM
He was in high school. I was a +0.6 at my best in college so on handicap alone, we're basically the same.

Wow, you guys are crazy good. I'm decent at a 8 handicap, but I just hit the proverbial wall and can't seem to close in on scratch. Best round I had 3 birdies and an eagle, but bogies took their toll and I scored a 78. Frustrating. I'd rather have had mostly pars and scored low, than blow a round when I was at three under with that many birdies/eagles. G would be cool to play a round with at the Duke course. Hope he makes the PGA tour in the future.

Merlindevildog91
07-27-2010, 04:15 PM
At least we can tell Draymond Green didn't get any illegal golf lessons! Remember TJ Yates tweeted about getting golf lessons a week or so ago, and told the NCAA not to worry because he got them from someone the NCAA shouldn't worry about (apropos of the Marvin Austin/Greg Little South Beach saga). So maybe he doesn't know anyone who can give him lessons without it being an improper benefit.

greybeard
07-28-2010, 06:47 PM
If you sit on a chair (forward of the back), and turn slowly to the left and then back to the middle several times, without straining, and pausing in between each try. Each try you should try to reduce the effort even more and stop when you notice the least bit of strain or resistence. Notice how far you see, pick a spot on the wall. Then turn in the other direction, and repeat the instructions. Was one side easier? Which side do you see further. Then, turn to the left and notice which side of the butt you are pivoting on. Then turn to the right and notice which side you are sitting on. For many of us, it will be the same side. For many of us, we also will also turn much more easily one way then the other.

If you lie on the floor, take your right hand and put it across your forehead, palm down. Roll your head very slowly with your hand to the left and stop when you feel the slightest change. It might be half an inch or less. Return to the middle and after a pause, repeat. Do it five times. Change hands and move your head to the right. Repeat as before. Most everyone will notice that his or her head turns more easily and further to one side. Such a nothing movement and such a big difference. How come?

For Barkley, I'd bet the ranch that if he did the sitting turns as suggested above, assuming he could turn to his left at all (his spine and ribs might inhibit it), he will find that he pivots on the same cheek and that it will probably be his left. I also suspect that there are other parts of him that cannot rotate through to the left, that his shoulder blades (I'm guessing his right one, in particular, might be frozen and not move independently from the ribs, at least in a golf-stance orientation.

I think Sir Charles has an unstable right side due to constriction through that side, a rigid left side that will not allow his pelvis on that side to move at all, at least not meaningfully, and that his ankles probably have no movement left in them either. That is for starters. No amount of "how to" golf instruction will change what causes his inability to swing through the downswing consistently.

And, yes. there might also be something in the movement of the body in the downswing, one or more of the parts that the body's downswing comprises, that Sir Charles never learned to perform, at least not properly, as a toddler, just blew past it or them. Ever see an infant who is only being able to ambulate backward, sort of push himself backward, all of a sudden go straight to standing without figuring out how to go forward first, either on all fours or slithering like a lizzard. The components that the kid didn't know how to do then; when he grows up, he still won't know how. He'll just work around them.

How come G, a scratch golfer, had such difficulty looking comfortable going left and finishing in sweeping movements? How come? Interesting.

jdj4duke
07-29-2010, 11:18 AM
I think Sir Charles has an unstable right side due to constriction through that side, a rigid left side that will not allow his pelvis on that side to move at all, at least not meaningfully, and that his ankles probably have no movement left in them either. That is for starters. No amount of "how to" golf instruction will change what causes his inability to swing through the downswing consistently.

And, yes. there might also be something in the movement of the body in the downswing, one or more of the parts that the body's downswing comprises, that Sir Charles never learned to perform, at least not properly, as a toddler, just blew past it or them.

Pretty detailed and interesting theory, some specifics of which I dare not try to contradict except:

1-Barkley used to be able to play pretty well
2- his practice swings are fine and having watched him on the Haney Project, he clearly understands how to swing and can do it repeatedly and pretty well except when the ball is actually in front of him.

I have been playing golf for 50 years, and have been between 8 and scratch handicap for the last 45 of them. Was a 3 as recently as last year. However, about 2 months ago, I entered strange new territory where I am hitting the ball like I am giving a clinic on the range, and on the course I have become the biggest headcase since Ian Baker-Finch. You know- the guy who won the British Open and the next week couldn't hit a fairway if he was lying down on it.

There are great and lousy "athletes" with all kinds of physical abilities or limitations who can play pretty good golf. Fused spines, bad knees, overweight, withered arms (Fast Eddie Furgol), etc. I have seen guys who couldn't get into a chair shoot in the 60's. So, while some baseline physical ability, including hand-eye co-ordination, are certainly imperative to play golf, I don't think that Charles's golf game is such a disaster because of his physical conditions or limitations.


Clearly, the 5-inches between the ears is in play, and seeing the size of Sir Charles's head, he has an even greater obstacle to overcome.

jacone21
07-29-2010, 12:58 PM
You know... watching that video, I have one take away. The poor guy hit 15 or so horrible shots and 1 good one. He's probably going to come back for more because of that 1 good shot. Golf is evil that way.

jdj4duke
07-29-2010, 01:17 PM
He's probably going to come back for more because of that 1 good shot. Golf is evil that way.

And that is certainly correct.

greybeard
07-29-2010, 11:26 PM
Pretty detailed and interesting theory, some specifics of which I dare not try to contradict except:

1-Barkley used to be able to play pretty well
2- his practice swings are fine and having watched him on the Haney Project, he clearly understands how to swing and can do it repeatedly and pretty well except when the ball is actually in front of him.

I have been playing golf for 50 years, and have been between 8 and scratch handicap for the last 45 of them. Was a 3 as recently as last year. However, about 2 months ago, I entered strange new territory where I am hitting the ball like I am giving a clinic on the range, and on the course I have become the biggest headcase since Ian Baker-Finch. You know- the guy who won the British Open and the next week couldn't hit a fairway if he was lying down on it.

There are great and lousy "athletes" with all kinds of physical abilities or limitations who can play pretty good golf. Fused spines, bad knees, overweight, withered arms (Fast Eddie Furgol), etc. I have seen guys who couldn't get into a chair shoot in the 60's. So, while some baseline physical ability, including hand-eye co-ordination, are certainly imperative to play golf, I don't think that Charles's golf game is such a disaster because of his physical conditions or limitations.


Clearly, the 5-inches between the ears is in play, and seeing the size of Sir Charles's head, he has an even greater obstacle to overcome.

First, practice swings are in a different orientation; much more upright and not on plane through the ball. You tell me if in this video you see the left side of his pelvis move, either up or down, or right or left, except after he makes that exceptional stop, literally curls his body in a C with the opening curving towards his right which is accomplished by a jump of sorts that sort of gets his left side a bit out of the way so that he can hit through the ball with an extension of his right arm and have the club move on a somewhat inside path as it passes throught the ball.

Practice swings in a more upright stance, coming up out of the stance, and not keeping the swing on plane from inside, out, and then back to the inside in a golf stance position is not what a real downswing needs to prsent in order to comprss the ball and hit it where you want. If he has been able to deliver an occasional nearly on plane hit that has the club aligned in a position to compress the ball it is luck and not a golf swing. It is not equatable to proof that Barkley can make his body do the movements that will support a swing through the ball that makes contact in an impact alignment.

I can tell you that there are hundreds of yogafiles, actually many more, who when they turn right might in sitting might shift their weight to their right butt and when they turn left shift their weight to the same butt. To you they will look like they are turning equally well each way. But the former will be much more an actual turn, have much more each, and, from the perspective of function, be smoother, easier and produce centriphical force; the later might seem easy but will have none of these qualities, and will be an illusion. The ribs when reverse pivoting will recede on the side that one is pivoting towards, rather than turning in the same direction and bowing out to support the shoulders and head in the turn. There will be no mass moving into the turn. All the things associated with a reverse pivot will be present. This will all be from sitting on a bench and trying to make a turn of the head and torso to one side and then the other without any strain, sense of stretching etc. People will be unable to do it.

Watch the warm ups in any martial arts class other than ones consisting only of high black belts. See if they, the students, do not fake the form, stance on one side when punching while doing much better on the other. Notice whether each hip sinks equally, whether each arm can extend out from the shoulder on a straight or nearly straight plain, etc.

Charles' ability to perform a golf swing undoubtedly has diminished with the serious injuries he incurred in playing ball, not to mention the wear and tear of all those dunks and all that pushing and shoving. HE UNDOUBTEDLY CAN ON OCCASION MUSCLE THROUGH A MOVEMENT THAT OUTWARDLY LOOKS LIKE SOMETHING NORMAL. HE ALSO CAN HIT THE BALL WITH A WELL TIMED USE OF HIS ARMS, THAT WILL CAUSE A SOLID AND ON PLANE HIT THAT WILL COMPRESS THE BALL.

What he obviously cannot do, despite how to instructions from a world class teacher swing a club on plan so that the club head is delivered with a flat left wrist in line with the club head, a bent right wrist putting pressure into the clubhead at impact, supported by a bent right elbow in front of his rotating right hip. He cannot do it because his body will not let him; the component movements that Hanney wants him to master and put together cannot happen.

What I have put forth is only a hypothesis of what seems maybe to going on. But one thing that is not going on is any movement in that left pelvis, nor right pelvis very much either, and what he absolutely cannot do, without that bend, is deliver the right shoulder of his body down plane from the insdie out to the golf ball and then back inside supported by his legs and feet. He can make some semblence of a move back, really he just lifts his arms across his body and doesn't turn but a tad, but his left pelvis in my opinion cannot permit a swing forward through the ball, and I think that his spine and ribs are oriented to move precisely in the opposite direction that he is wanting to turn when he begins to drop his arms, making a continuation impossible.

Or maybe it is muscle memory.

I do not question the real possibility that Barkley never ever learned some of the fundamental building blocks that go into orienting his body to permit a swing to his left and that that contributes, perhaps mightily, to his inability to swing the club with any regularity.

However, when references are made to the five inches between the ears it is not a reference to those type blind spots which we all have in our learning. What that phrase implies is that Barkley needs a swing psychologist or something. I do not think so. I think that that notion is very, very far off the mark.

Now, how come a scratch golfer like G, who is a first round draft pick, can't go left worth a damn, as compared to half the varsity basketball players of a so-so nature who will never get a look by a college coach on any level? Coaching? Mental block? Come on, man. Once in a blue moon, can he find a way to organize himself to replicate something that looks presentable. Sure. But what inhibits G in that regard is not dissimilar, minus the injury factor which is huge, from what inhibits Barkely from making an on-plane golf swing that impacts the ball in a proper impact alignment. In my opinion.

DukeSean
07-30-2010, 12:56 AM
just wanted to say, "thanks Jason" for making me feel a lot better about the round I played this morning ;)

Richard Berg
07-30-2010, 01:28 AM
Bob Knight's Youtube bloopers make the craziness of mixing good basketball with bad golf totally worth it.

jdj4duke
07-30-2010, 09:19 AM
First, practice swings are in a different orientation; much more upright and not on plane through the ball.

Please note again, I have played golf for 50 years, and at some fairly high tournament levels. I am very familiar with the relationship between practice and "real" swings as well as the details and mechanics of a golf swing. However, I would not extrapolate that knowledge even to try to answer your question about G and his inability to go left (but I think I could explain why any golfer, and especially a competition level one, could not just decide to switch from right handed to left). I wouldn't even pick up a basketball around G, but I would certainly look him in the face on the first tee.

Respectfully, I think you wildly underestimate the 5-inch impact with Charles and overstate the potential impact of physical decay or change or training on his golf swing (and I use that term loosely). Would he be able to swing a tennis racket or baseball bat with any more fluidity or efficacy than a golf club? I bet so. Yes, they are not the same as a golf club, but there is similarity in rotation, weight shift, extension, and integration of hip and leg action in all three. I cannot imagine that Charles would look as lame with a bat as he does with a 6 iron.

It's impossible to be unimpressed with the number and detail of your hypotheses, although reading them makes me think of Mac O'Grady more than I have for years. As you say, "in my opinion" the physical links to Barkley's particular affliction are not nearly as direct or as strong as you state. It is nonetheless an interesting way to start the morning and is a hell of a lot more interesting than the raft of emails at work.

I also understand that one does not have to be expert at an activity before being able to comment knowledgeably about it. However, with all due respect and seriousness- what is the best handicap you have ever carried and for how long?

johnb
07-30-2010, 10:21 AM
I'm going to have to read greybeard's comments more carefully, since I've been intrigued by Feldenkrais, kinesiology etc for years.

Anyway, I'd add that in addition to the importance of the 5 inches between your ears, golf demands an important half-inch behind your right gluteus maximus. Without a wallet, you're unlikely to get lessons and course access. I don't know anything about this particular Michigan State player, but I'll bet he didn't have a golf club membership and/or a golfing father as a child (as did most good young adult golfers--as Henderson did). It's a bit like swimming in that most urban African American kids have no access to pools and simply can't swim--what they primarily lack is access, though I'd throw in role models for good measure.

greybeard
07-30-2010, 02:01 PM
Please note again, I have played golf for 50 years, and at some fairly high tournament levels. I am very familiar with the relationship between practice and "real" swings as well as the details and mechanics of a golf swing. However, I would not extrapolate that knowledge even to try to answer your question about G and his inability to go left (but I think I could explain why any golfer, and especially a competition level one, could not just decide to switch from right handed to left). I wouldn't even pick up a basketball around G, but I would certainly look him in the face on the first tee.

Respectfully, I think you wildly underestimate the 5-inch impact with Charles and overstate the potential impact of physical decay or change or training on his golf swing (and I use that term loosely). Would he be able to swing a tennis racket or baseball bat with any more fluidity or efficacy than a golf club? I bet so. Yes, they are not the same as a golf club, but there is similarity in rotation, weight shift, extension, and integration of hip and leg action in all three. I cannot imagine that Charles would look as lame with a bat as he does with a 6 iron.

It's impossible to be unimpressed with the number and detail of your hypotheses, although reading them makes me think of Mac O'Grady more than I have for years. As you say, "in my opinion" the physical links to Barkley's particular affliction are not nearly as direct or as strong as you state. It is nonetheless an interesting way to start the morning and is a hell of a lot more interesting than the raft of emails at work.

I also understand that one does not have to be expert at an activity before being able to comment knowledgeably about it. However, with all due respect and seriousness- what is the best handicap you have ever carried and for how long?

I am offering my observations and hypothesises, nothing more. I bet you are wrong about the baseball swing, although that is much easier to fake. Orientation, as in being upright, and rotating the upper body is one thing, even if the arms swing down as in a golf swing, is different than trying to swing so the club head approaches, contacts, and moves through the ball ON PLANE and with a straight left wrist at impact with the club aligned with the left arm (ergo hands in front of the ball), bent right wrist at impact, bent right elbow at impact, ideally resting against the right hip. I do have that right, don't I.

I have exaimined thousands of pictures, well maybe hundreds, of great golfers from all eras at impact and they all have exactly and only that alignment. Accomplishing that alignment an in plane movement of the club, is different than rotating standing vertically or making a practice swing that simply flows smoothly. The latter involves much less of the body.

Now, if you want to discuss any aspect of the golf swing, and I do mean any, I am with you completely. Happy to do it. Do not believe that you will be able to deconstruct what is involved with any greater acuity than I. I also do not believe that you would have half a chance at helping someone who has restrictions that preclude, and/or does not currently understand how to, use his body to take the club back, to not work at cross purposes to his intent and to free his muscles and organize himself to perform the tasks at hand. MANY PEOPLE WHO DO THINGS WELL DO NOT HAVE A CLUE AS TO HOW THEY ACTUALLY DO THEM. I have been educated to be able to work with people as they currently present, to help them come to terms with how they organize and approach performing all sorts of movements, the building blocks on up, and to provide the opportunity for them to learn how to change, to see how different organizations can make things easier and more effective, and then to change if they chose. I can also identify where the body is stuck and have a number of proven and amazing strategies I have been exposed to that will free up and introduce movement where there currently is none. Am I any good at it? We'll see.

You play much better than I ever did. I have studied the game, I am reasonably certain, and explored it with a very, very high end teacher, quite a bit. Yes, I do have blind spots and physical problems that preclude me from doing what I want when it comes to swinging a club.

These are just my observations and hypotheses about Charles from what I saw on the Hanney show and see in this video.

jdj4duke
07-30-2010, 02:44 PM
I also do not believe that you would have half a chance at helping someone who has restrictions that preclude, and/or does not currently understand how to, use his body to take the club back, to not work at cross purposes to his intent and to free his muscles and organize himself to perform the tasks at hand.

These are just my observations and hypotheses about Charles from what I saw on the Hanney show and see in this video.

We at last have arrived at the point where it seems pointless to argue (in a good sense) about who can do what. Nonetheless- I will say that I have probably seen more live golfers bring more weird yet successful moves to the ball than you have seen in any number of pictures. In fact I could posit that watching bad yet effective swings can be highly informative.

Whether we can deconstruct swings toward a particular effect or outcome, well we will never know. I can tell you that I have taught both beginners and single digit handicappers of various ages, physical abilities and skill levels, and though they have all improved, I would not classify myself a great teacher but I have learned enough from those who are great teachers to know how to work with the talent that is at hand. In that regard, the 5 inch axiom, for both teacher and pupil, is critical.

I have hung around golf courses for a long long time, hitting wedge shots off sidewalks and fairway woods off of parking lots for fun and money. Much well-spent time with hustlers, trick shot clowns, and guys who can hit it a mile and cannot break 90. I have seen figure eight swings that can fade, draw, or hit it it on a string on demand. I have helped a 70 year old get rid of a lifetime dead right cut with one simple move. I would also be confident that I could take a hack and get him or her better and a lot faster than you could. But that of course is my opinion. We will not settle this on DBR.

I agree- you may be able to isolate, postulate, and call out particular elements or sections of a swing far better than I. But I will take tens of thousands of hours of live experience (some of it with a fair amount of dough on the line) and happily match your hypotheses and explication. And I mean no insult or disrespect by that.

So, I guess we have about beat this one to death; what is the old saw regarding dancing about architecture? Interesting discussion, but I suppose we would need a couple guinea pigs to go much further, and I don't know Charles well enough to get him to the range.

And I still would not hazard a guess why G cannot go left. But I can tell you three ways he could hit a draw with the ball below his feet.

BD80
07-30-2010, 03:10 PM
... Clearly, the 5-inches between the ears is in play, and seeing the size of Sir Charles's head, he has an even greater obstacle to overcome.

Why do they call him dense, when that space probably tends toward a vacuum?


You know... watching that video, I have one take away. The poor guy hit 15 or so horrible shots and 1 good one. He's probably going to come back for more because of that 1 good shot. Golf is evil that way.

Worse than evil: INSIDIOUS! It will make you suffer through the worst round of your life in front of colleagues or clients that you most want to impress, causing you to hit your new most embarrassing shot ever hole after hole, forcing you to announce hideous score after inflated score while your partner cringes. Then it will give you that one drive that reaches the crest of the hill and chases 100 yards ahead of the rest of the group, or that 5 wood into the par five that catches the break of the green and rolls right to the cup. Or, for me, any putt longer than 4 feet in length. Insidious is the word.


We at last have arrived at the point where it seems pointless to argue (in a good sense) about who can do what. ...

Most threads reach that point around page two, and yet continue on for 20 more pages.

jdj4duke
07-30-2010, 03:27 PM
Most threads reach that point around page two, and yet continue on for 20 more pages.

But this is golf. 20 pages is about the front 9.

cato
07-30-2010, 04:23 PM
I have helped a 70 year old get rid of a lifetime dead right cut with one simple move.

You don't happen to be passing through Southern California any time soon, do you?

jdj4duke
07-30-2010, 04:42 PM
You don't happen to be passing through Southern California any time soon, do you?

Check your private message-

greybeard
07-30-2010, 06:19 PM
We at last have arrived at the point where it seems pointless to argue (in a good sense) about who can do what. Nonetheless- I will say that I have probably seen more live golfers bring more weird yet successful moves to the ball than you have seen in any number of pictures. In fact I could posit that watching bad yet effective swings can be highly informative.

Whether we can deconstruct swings toward a particular effect or outcome, well we will never know. I can tell you that I have taught both beginners and single digit handicappers of various ages, physical abilities and skill levels, and though they have all improved, I would not classify myself a great teacher but I have learned enough from those who are great teachers to know how to work with the talent that is at hand. In that regard, the 5 inch axiom, for both teacher and pupil, is critical.

I have hung around golf courses for a long long time, hitting wedge shots off sidewalks and fairway woods off of parking lots for fun and money. Much well-spent time with hustlers, trick shot clowns, and guys who can hit it a mile and cannot break 90. I have seen figure eight swings that can fade, draw, or hit it it on a string on demand. I have helped a 70 year old get rid of a lifetime dead right cut with one simple move. I would also be confident that I could take a hack and get him or her better and a lot faster than you could. But that of course is my opinion. We will not settle this on DBR.

I agree- you may be able to isolate, postulate, and call out particular elements or sections of a swing far better than I. But I will take tens of thousands of hours of live experience (some of it with a fair amount of dough on the line) and happily match your hypotheses and explication. And I mean no insult or disrespect by that.

So, I guess we have about beat this one to death; what is the old saw regarding dancing about architecture? Interesting discussion, but I suppose we would need a couple guinea pigs to go much further, and I don't know Charles well enough to get him to the range.

And I still would not hazard a guess why G cannot go left. But I can tell you three ways he could hit a draw with the ball below his feet.

Just a few things. Impact position is singular, yes? There are no divergences in the swings you have seen at impact. How one gets there; that is a different matter. Now, the paridigm for most golfers is to keep the club on plane throughout, but there are variences from that; in the past, it was only important that the club was on plane as it approached and traveled through the ball; how one got there varied tremendously. However, look at pictures of Travino, Snead, Palmer, Tiger, Furick, you name him, and you will see NO variences through the impact zone--hands in front of the ball, left arm aligned with the club, flat left wrist, bent right wrist, bent right elbow touching front of right hip as hip rotates. And, oh, the right shoulder is moving down plane on plane. Every single one of them. That alignment is necessary to compress the ball and know which direction and how far it will go. There are no other possibilities.

If Hanney could not help Charles improve, and Charles went at it with a top athlete's focus, I think that physical issues prevent him from letting the club move down from the top of the backswing and approach and move through the ball in the required alignment. I also think that there well may be elemental aspects of movement involved in making a downswing that Charles never learned and might literally impede him from doing what he wants. I have ventured several hypotheses as to what the impediments to movement in Charles there might be; some are probably learning issues, at least, in part. For example, if one's pattern of holding has one side of the body in chronic constriction, no amount of practice is going to fix that problem and permit the pelvis to move as one needs, nor the shoulder blade, nor ones spine and ribs.

On the other hand, if impact position is available to an individual, and an inside to out to inside swing in some fashion is also available, it sounds like you are the type of person who can help that person find a way to swing the club that will play better than he could on his own. I definitely could not hope to do that.

Not to beat a dead horse, but if you go out to a little league practice, the wee ones, and watch kids swing, you will not believe the number of kids you will see who reverse pivot when hitting. The coach can tell them to the cow's come home to "step into the ball." They will still reverse pivot. These same kids will have trouble throwing, stepping into the throw, and will tend to throw it high and right. They will be discounted as "not getting it," and, by they are nine and play starts in ernest, they will be gone from organized play after having attended and been frustrated at several camps and clinics run by "professionals." Sad.

PS It might be that at least one significant reason that G cannot go left is that his left side will not collapse--that is, the left side of his pelvis does not easily move up, his left shoulder does not easily move down, and his ribs on that side are rigidly expanded and his spine is turned slightly right. Just a hypothesis. There are probably lots of other things going on and I'm sure its more complicated in terms of the acture in his different muscle groups, but from my visuals of him over his years at Duke I think that that is a pretty good starting guess.

greybeard
07-31-2010, 05:05 PM
When there is chronic constriction on one side, which would be Charle's right if my hypothesis is right, the spine at a point proximate to the bottom of the sternum will be bowed to the left and the vertebrae that is furtherest left and those around it will be rotated to the right. Given the strength of Charles musculature, that indent, curvature in the spine, is likely to be pretty locked in. Ergo, if he comes down in rotation in a particular range of vectors, he literally has to gather himself and jump past that point in his spine to continue turning his upper body enough to hit at the ball on a path that will cause it to go towards the target with some force, on somewhat of an inside to out to in trajectory. He also has to make a very pronounced move to allow his legs to bow towards the target, while jumping back, to achieve the inside to out to inside hit that will compress the ball if his timing is perfect.

left_hook_lacey
08-05-2010, 11:01 AM
What I presented here is an overview presentation of one of the fundamental discovering Moshe Feldenkrais made and incorporated in what is known as the Feldenkrais Method that distinguishes that method from (1) physical therapy; (2) biomechanics; (3) kinesthesiology; (4) working with a physical trainer.

To get an encapsulation of the Method, which is very difficult to explain given Moshe's broad intellectual and experiential background, I would recommend that you check out semiophysics.com; click on "articles" and read the article about "The Method," which I believe is the very first article.

There is some of the theory, meta information about the work, presented in a book Moshe authored late in his life to provide people unfamiliar with the work an idea of what it entails. The book includes 10 Awareness through Movement lessons (there are over 1000 he created) that contain within them, in addition to directions of simple movements to perform, meta information about the question you ask. Doing lessons you will see immediate changes in the tonus of your body (most are done lying on the floor). The book costs about $14 and is called Awareness Through Movement, which is only one portion of the work involved in the method.

After looking into this, if you would like to purchase a series of CDs that will make some of what the work has to offer in terms of being able to explore systematically the type of issues that have puzzled you, the Feldenkrais Institute of NY has a series of lessons for beginners and others by David Zemach Bersin and another teacher, that are wonderfully useful. They can be purchased as a full set or as a half. The first half is enough to get a feel for whether you think the Method has something you will be interested in pursuing. At $39 for I think it is 10-20 30-45 minute experiences, they are well worth it.

Hope that this helps.

The individualized aspects of the work, called Functional Integration lessons, can be profound depending on the teacher you hook up with. The key is for a teacher to be able to find your precise pattern of movement which is dictated by chronic holding patterns and to take over the work you are doing but do not know it. From there, options to the habitual are available at an excellerated rate to the more generic Awareness Through Movement lessons. Later.

Hey, just wanted to thank you for this info. Sorry it has taken me a week to get back to you. I was on holiday. Played a couple of rounds while I was there, and I couldn't help but think about your comments and these studies while I was playing. I was constantly trying to turn and twist to the right and left while I was waiting to tee off to see how far I could go one way compared to the other. My buddies were finally confirmed that I am in fact, insane. :) Can't wait to dig into some of the exercises and theory of Feldenkrais method and the others you mentioned. Thanks agian. :cool: