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4decadedukie
07-17-2010, 10:08 AM
I have frequently thought that there are several of superb Duke basketball players, principally from the pre-K era, whose documented performances merit retirement of their numbers with their jerseys elevated to Cameron's rafters. Therefore, this thread is a venue to nominate such individuals. I'll open with Steve Vacendak.

uh_no
07-17-2010, 10:15 AM
JON SCHEYER...


wait.....nm

sagegrouse
07-17-2010, 10:26 AM
I have frequently thought that there are several of superb Duke basketball players, principally from the pre-K era, whose documented performances merit retirement of their numbers with their jerseys elevated to Cameron's rafters. Therefore, this thread is a venue to nominate such individuals. I'll open with Steve Vacendak.

The mystery is why Bob Verga's jersey has not been retired, inasmuch as he has met the stated requirements of being on the first or second A-A teams: 2nd team in 1966 and 1st team in 1967.

sagegrouse

Orange&BlackSheep
07-17-2010, 10:39 AM
Being the son of a T-66, I clearly have no memories of watching Verga play, but between the numbers and the stories I have heard, it seems impossible that Verga is not worthy of hanging from the rafters.

Olympic Fan
07-17-2010, 11:23 AM
This thread seems to come up every offseason.

First, there are NO hard-and-fast criteria ... the guidelines are whatever Duke officials (with Coach K having the last say) want. When you look at the jerseys that have been retired you see 12 that were consensus first-team All-Americans and one (Jeff Mullins) that was not.

Duke has had three consensus first-team All-Americans who have not had retired jerseys -- Elton Brand (1999), Chris Carrawell (2000) and Bob Verga (1967).

Brand, of course, was national player of the year ... but he left after two years. I think if he ever came back and got his degree, that he would be honored.

Carrawell and Verga would see to have the best case among the non-honored. In Verga's case, it's hard to see how Mullins (21.9 ppg., second-team consensus A-A) got it and Verga (22.0 ppg., first-team consensus A-A) didn't.

The problem is that these decisions were made long after the fact. What happened is that Duke retired Duke Groat's jersey in basketball and baseball in 1952, then long-time athletic director Eddie Cameron decided that no more jerseys would be honored. Bubas begged him to honor Heyman, but was refused.

It was only in 1980, when Tom Butters was AD that Bill Foster was able to convince the school to honor Mike Gminski -- his number was just the second one retired. That opened the door for Coach K to honor his first greats -- Dawkins and Ferry.

But old-timers pointed out to him how the Bubas-era stars got screwed, so in 1990, he got Heyman's jersey retired ... in 1994 Mullins followed.

I don't dispute either -- both were well-deserved -- but I do think Verga and MAYBE Jack Marin would be honored too.

Vacendak -- no. I liked him as a player, but he never made a significant All-America team and was never even first-team All-ACC (although he did win the 1966 ACC POY award after behind the No. 9 vote getter on the All-ACC team).

When you total Scheyer's accomplishments, you'll see that they look a lot like Jim Spanarkel, Gene Banks and Mark Alarie. It would be hard to put him in without honoring those three guys -- and maybe Trajan Langdon, who was close to that level too.

You have to draw a line somewhere ...

Bob Green
07-17-2010, 11:25 AM
#11 belongs in the rafters...wait...it is in the rafters so #11 needs to be in the rafters twice. Bob Verga definitely deserves to have his number retired.

jimsumner
07-17-2010, 11:49 AM
My understanding is that it is highly unlikely that any old-timers will be added to the retired jersey list. I would put Verga, Jim Spanarkel, Mark Alarie and Gene Banks at the top of the non-honored list. Trajan Langdon probably needs to be in the high-near-miss category, along with the much undervalued Randy Denton, Marin and maybe Chris Duhon.

Haven't had enough time to properly evaluate Scheyer. These things need to marinate a while.

CameronBornAndBred
07-17-2010, 02:02 PM
Gene Banks

Wander
07-17-2010, 02:17 PM
First of all, Singler!

We've been through the whole individual vs team accomplishment thing before, but the first thing to jump out at me is that our first three title teams all have at least two retired jerseys, and all our Final Four teams have at least one retired jersey, except for I think 1966. Just something to think about in regards to our Big Three from last year, and the guys on the '66 team...

howardlander
07-17-2010, 02:30 PM
I'd argue for Claudius Claiborne, the first African American player at Duke. I don't think he was a great player, but he did make a great contribution to the University,

Howard

4decadedukie
07-17-2010, 02:46 PM
Vacendak -- no. I liked him as a player, but he never made a significant All-America team and was never even first-team All-ACC (although he did win the 1966 ACC POY award after behind the No. 9 vote getter on the All-ACC team).

Not to be overly argumentative, but in 1965 and 1966 Steve Vacendak was a Second-Team All American and, as you indicated, in '66 he was also the ACC Player-of-the-Year; those credentials seem to me to be somewhat impressive.

Bob Green
07-17-2010, 03:10 PM
Not to be overly argumentative, but in 1965 and 1966 Steve Vacendak was a Second-Team All American and, as you indicated, in '66 he was also the ACC Player-of-the-Year; those credentials seem to me to be somewhat impressive.

I'll defer to Olympic Fan or Jim Sumner to jump in here with the details (because I was seven years old in 1966) but there were some strange circumstances surrounding Vacendak winning ACC POY in '66. As OF stated, he received the 9th most votes in the All ACC team voting.

sagegrouse
07-17-2010, 03:25 PM
Not to be overly argumentative, but in 1965 and 1966 Steve Vacendak was a Second-Team All American and, as you indicated, in '66 he was also the ACC Player-of-the-Year; those credentials seem to me to be somewhat impressive.

Stevie Wonder was a good guy and a really good player but was never an All-American, at least according to the Duke Basketball Yearbooks I have. He was 2nd team All-ACC those years, which seven other Devils* who played in the 1960s achieved, only two of whose jerseys are retired.

The story of how Vacendak got to be the MVP in 1966, although barely 2nd team All-ACC, is an interesting one, which I will let others relate. I was in grad school away from the ACC in the late 1960's.

sagegrouse
'*Howard Hurt, Art Heyman, Jeff Mullins, Jack Marin, Bob Verga, Mike Lewis, Randy Denton. Boy! Those are good memories.'

DukeVu
07-17-2010, 03:28 PM
Vacendak was not statistically inclined and therefore not recognized for his value. But was a player, a leader, a winner and gave everything he had on the basketball court. He had an inter-toughness and a will to win like not many others. This is why he was named ACC Player-of-the-year while not on the first team All-ACC team. Those that never saw him have missed a great one.

This also reminds me of Louis Allen a tackle on one of Wallace Wade's team. A tackle that is the only lineman to ever start all four years for WW. He was reputed to never have been blocked completely out of a play. Also an All American.
Two really tough sons-of-a-gun.

As you can tell I am an old timer and this post is probably out of place but I did love both these ex-Duke GREATS.

OZZIE4DUKE
07-17-2010, 03:38 PM
I can't comment on the players from the 60's, but from 1972 on I can, and will. Of all the players who are honored in the Hall of Honor with plaques (and thereby will never have their jersey's retired because they are already honored, or so is the "official" policy we were told about 10 years ago when they started the Hall), Jim Spanarkel is the one who is most deserving, more so than Banks or Alarie.

As to Kyle Singler, if he has the kind of year we hope he has, he'll raise a jersey banner along with a second National Championship banner next year, and we'll have another display case for National Player of the Year in the HOF room!

4decadedukie
07-17-2010, 04:13 PM
I / We can only hope . . .

Devilsfan
07-17-2010, 04:26 PM
For all the "old timers" there is one difference Scheyer led us to a NC, and as harsh and "infidelish" as it may seem Spinarkle, Alarie and Banks did not.

msdukie
07-17-2010, 05:19 PM
First, are we sure that Dick Groat's baseball jersey is retired as mentioned by Olympic Fan. I know that the original plaque showing the retirement had a baseball jersey in it too, but my understanding is that Duke has never retired a jersey in any sport other than basketball (men's and women's). Does anyone have any confirmation on Groat's baseball jersey? Nowhere at Jack Coombs is there any indication his number has been retired, nor is it in the baseball media guide (IIRC).

This leads to the second issue. Why hasn't Duke ever retired a number in any other sport? Duke certainly has had a large number of National Players of the Year in numerous sports (in addition to individual NCAA Champions), and players with national honors on National Championship teams. Additionally, Duke Football has more than a fair share of members of the College Football Hall of Fame and 3 players in Canton. These numbers/jerseys (in the pre-number days) should all be retired too.

OZZIE4DUKE
07-17-2010, 05:24 PM
For all the "old timers" there is one difference Scheyer led us to a NC, and as harsh and "infidelish" as it may seem Spinarkle, Alarie and Banks did not.
Spanarkel, with the addition of Banks, Dennard and Gminski in later years, led us from ACC perennial last place doormat to the 1978 Final game vs. Kentucky. If it wasn't for Goose Givens our first banner would have said St. Louis on it. :cool:

OZZIE4DUKE
07-17-2010, 05:31 PM
This leads to the second issue. Why hasn't Duke ever retired a number in any other sport? Duke certainly has had a large number of National Players of the Year in numerous sports (in addition to individual NCAA Champions), and players with national honors on National Championship teams.
Well, for starters, most women golfers don't wear numbers on their "jerseys" :D

And Duke has retired Womens BBall numbers.

Maybe when Sean Renfree leads us to the National Championship in 2012 his will be the first football number retired! :cool:

jimsumner
07-17-2010, 05:36 PM
The 1978 Duke team finished second in the NCAAs after six seasons of 14 wins or fewer.

The 2010 team finished first in the NCAAs after beginning the season ranked in the top ten. That team played in its 15th consecutive NCAA Tournament.

I think a case could be made that the 1978 team's accomplishments at least equal those of the 2010 team.

And, for what it's worth, Groat, Heyman, Mullins, Gminski, Dawkins, Ferry, Redick and Shelden Williams didn't lead Duke to any NCAA titles either.

Verga3
07-17-2010, 05:49 PM
My understanding is that it is highly unlikely that any old-timers will be added to the retired jersey list. I would put Verga, Jim Spanarkel, Mark Alarie and Gene Banks at the top of the non-honored list. Trajan Langdon probably needs to be in the high-near-miss category, along with the much undervalued Randy Denton, Marin and maybe Chris Duhon.

Haven't had enough time to properly evaluate Scheyer. These things need to marinate a while.

Completely agree to marinate on Scheyer. We have already marinated on Spanarkel, whom I think is the closest comparable player to Jon (except for Goose Givens not allowing Jim and Duke a national title in 1978). To me it would be fitting for those two jerseys to be retired at the same ceremony a few years from now....But first, Bob Verga should to be honored. Still very hard to understand why it has never happened with his numbers and national accolades.

Jim, do you have any additional insight (or opinion) on why it's so unlikely that any old-timers might be added?

jimsumner
07-17-2010, 06:53 PM
I believe Duke is using the Hall of Honor to commemorate players whose numbers are unretired, while leaving alive the possibility of retiring future numbers.

In case, you're wondering, it is possible to run out of numbers. There are 36 possible basketball numbers, 37 if you consider 0 and 00 to be different numbers. Duke has retired 13, IIRC, leaving 23/4 available. Assume a maximum of 15 players on any team. So, you can see Duke is not there yet but retire a half-dozen or so more numbers and it starts getting dicey.

If we assume that Duke isn't going to drop men's basketball any time soon and we assume that Duke will continue to turn out players with sufficient credentials, then some prudence would seem to be logical.

Stray Gator
07-17-2010, 08:00 PM
I believe Duke is using the Hall of Honor to commemorate players whose numbers are unretired, while leaving alive the possibility of retiring future numbers.

In case, you're wondering, it is possible to run out of numbers. There are 36 possible basketball numbers, 37 if you consider 0 and 00 to be different numbers. Duke has retired 13, IIRC, leaving 23/4 available. Assume a maximum of 15 players on any team. So, you can see Duke is not there yet but retire a half-dozen or so more numbers and it starts getting dicey.

If we assume that Duke isn't going to drop men's basketball any time soon and we assume that Duke will continue to turn out players with sufficient credentials, then some prudence would seem to be logical.

I agree wholeheartedly, Jim. And count me among those who believe that jersey retirement should be reserved as a rare honor. But as it happens, retiring the jersey of the one former player who, IMO, is clearly deserving of that honor would not require any reduction in the numbers that remain available; because "11" has already been retired for another legendary guard from New Jersey who came along about a quarter-century later. If the freshman eligibility rule and the three-point shot had been in effect during the mid-60s, what are the chances that the leading scorer in ACC history just might have been that long-range sharpshooting guard from Sea Girt...?

Indoor66
07-17-2010, 08:26 PM
I agree wholeheartedly, Jim. And count me among those who believe that jersey retirement should be reserved as a rare honor. But as it happens, retiring the jersey of the one former player who, IMO, is clearly deserving of that honor would not require any reduction in the numbers that remain available; because "11" has already been retired for another legendary guard from New Jersey who came along about a quarter-century later. If the freshman eligibility rule and the three-point shot had been in effect during the mid-60s, what are the chances that the leading scorer in ACC history just might have been that long-range sharpshooting guard from Sea Girt...?

Highly likely!

Verga3
07-17-2010, 11:04 PM
I believe we should retire the player, irrespective of the number he wore. The name on the back of the jersey trumps the traditional number protocol in my mind. I greatly value and embrace the honor and singularity of the retired number, but think in the storied and historic basketball program that we have at Duke, that we should lead in taking this direction (and before we run out of proper numbers). With more great players coming in the future, this decision is surely coming. Let's start now by hanging a second #11 (Bob Verga) in the rafters. It really is all about the name on the back of jersey.

Interestingly, the potential retired numbers (players) we have been discussing have already been inducted into the Hall of Honor. http://dukeupdate.com/Records/circle_of_honor.htm One of the Hall of Honor selection criteria reads, "None of the players may have had their jerseys retired at Duke." Does the word "may" give some wiggle room to honor any of the Duke giants with a retired jersey in the future? I hope so.

Olympic Fan
07-18-2010, 12:52 AM
Not to be overly argumentative, but in 1965 and 1966 Steve Vacendak was a Second-Team All American and, as you indicated, in '66 he was also the ACC Player-of-the-Year; those credentials seem to me to be somewhat impressive.

I'd appreciate you citing which All-America team Steve Vacendak was supposed to have made in 1965 and 1966.

The 2009-10 Duke Basketball Yearbook lists the school's All-Americans on page 121 and doesn't include Vacendak either year. It has everybody else -- including Bill Mock in 1940, who was merely third team NEA All-American (but didn't even make the All-Southern Conference team).

The 2009-10 ACC Handbook is even more detailed, including every single A-A mention (even obscure 3rd team picks) on page 113 -- no mention of Vacendak in either year.

The Encyclopedia of Duke Basketball has a pretty complete bio of Vacendak on pages 340-41, but fails to mention any All-America selection. In the index, when it list season-by-season summaries, it includes all All-American honors, but on page 376 doesn't list Vacendak as an All-American in either 1965 or 66.

I also have the NCAA Record Book, which includes every All-America team recognized by the NCAA (there are some that aren't, such as Helms) and Vacendak doesn't make even a third-team.

So if you know of a second team he made in 1965 and 1966, please let us know which one it is.

I think the fact that in his best year year, Vacendak behind Pete Coker of NC State and two Wake Forest guards (Bob Leonard and Paul Long) in the All-ACC voting is pretty clear about where Vacendak ranked nationally.

His POY award was something of a fluke. He had a great tournament at a time when the tournament determined the ACC's only NCAA bid and many of the voters voted after the tournament. The vote was split between Marin, Verga and UNC's Bob Lewis, who led the league in scoring at 27.4 ppg.

Don't get me wrong -- Vacendak was a tough, hard-nosed player. I loved him. But he was not an All-American and I can't see how he's even close to the front of the line for jersey retuirement. He was never the best player on the team (he came off the bench in '64 ... Marin and Verga were better in '65 and '66).

PS I know that if we retire too many jerseys, we'll eventually run out of numbers. But we've already retired No. 11 for Hurley ... so to honor Verga wouldn't take another number (it would be like the Yankees retiring No. 8 for Dickey and Berra).

I think Verga is the one glaring omission ... if Brand gets his degree, I'd add him. But I'd leave Spanarkel, Banks, Carawell, Scheyer, Alarie -- and Vacendak -- as Hall of Fame players, but no retired jerseys.

4decadedukie
07-18-2010, 06:39 AM
You are correct, I erred, and I apologize to you and to the Board. Steve Vacendak was a Second-Team All ACC -- not All American -- selection in '65 and '66. Long ago, I obtained this information from Duke Update's record section (http://dukeupdate.com/Records/allacc_teams.htm), and I simply mis-remembered it yesterday.

bluedevil2012
07-18-2010, 07:29 AM
If we were to retroactively retire a number (as we did with Heyman and Mullins), my vote would be for the Alaskan Assassin. But then MP2 would have to give up his number.

jimsumner
07-18-2010, 12:00 PM
I agree with OF and have long maintained that Verga is the head of the non-retired-jersey class.

It's difficult to find a meaningful objective distinction between Mullins and Verga.

They scored almost exactly the same number of points at Duke. Mullins had a lot more rebounds but he was a 6'4" forward, Verga a 6'1" guard. They didn't keep stats on assists, steals, blocked shots or turnovers in those days.

Both were first-team All-ACC three times, so no advantage there.

More team success for Mullins. Two Final Fours, two ACC titles for Mullins, one of each for Verga. Does this matter? Should it?

Verga has an edge in All-America designations. Mullins was second-team AP and UPI A-A in 1964. Verga was second-team AP and UPI A-A in both 1966 and 1967. The USBWA had a ten-player A-A team in those days. Mullins made it in 1964, Verga in 1967.

The NCAA record book recognizes Mullins as a consensus second-team A-A in 1964, Verga second-team in 1966 and first-team in 1967. Seven players were considered consensus first-team A-A in 1967.

Mullins was Duke's first hoops Olympian, in 1964. Verga never had the chance. Maybe helps Mullins' case but it shouldn't hurt Verga's.

Mullins has one advantage in the honors category. He was named ACC POY in 1964, defeating Billy Cunningham 78-22. Verga was in the "also received votes" category in 1965 and 1966. Verga led the voting for the All-ACC team in 1967 but finished second in the ACC POY voting, 52-48 to Larry Miller.

Could other factors have been in play? The following is simply my opinion. Mullins stayed close to the program. He was an assistant AD at Duke, an AD and head coach in the state (at UNC-C) and regularly came back to Duke for reunions and summer programs.

Verga, by contrast, did not stay close to the program. He went back to the northeast, became a tennis coach and did not regularly come back to Duke.

I'm not suggesting that Verga did anything wrong nor am I suggesting that Duke is somehow punishing Verga or rewarding Mullins along those lines. But the cliche "Out of sight, out of mind" became a cliche for a good reason. It's human nature.

So, maybe that was the tie-breaker. Or perhaps that ACC POY award. That's the only rational reason for retiring Mullins' jersey but not Verga's.

Considering that the actual number already is retired, I see no reason to not honor Verga and by extension honor the incredible decade of Vic Bubas, which IMO, is underrepresented in the rafters.

Duke of Nashville
07-18-2010, 12:06 PM
If we were to retroactively retire a number (as we did with Heyman and Mullins), my vote would be for the Alaskan Assassin. But then MP2 would have to give up his number.

You may have your numbers crossed with Carlos Boozer. The only Alaskan Assassin I knew wore 21.

Verga3
07-18-2010, 12:16 PM
Thanks for the Mullins/Verga perspective, Jim. You may be right on target with your reasoning on why Mullins and not Verga. Your last sentence is perfect.

Devil in the Blue Dress
07-18-2010, 12:42 PM
I agree with OF and have long maintained that Verga is the head of the non-retired-jersey class.

It's difficult to find a meaningful objective distinction between Mullins and Verga.

They scored almost exactly the same number of points at Duke. Mullins had a lot more rebounds but he was a 6'4" forward, Verga a 6'1" guard. They didn't keep stats on assists, steals, blocked shots or turnovers in those days.

Both were first-team All-ACC three times, so no advantage there.

More team success for Mullins. Two Final Fours, two ACC titles for Mullins, one of each for Verga. Does this matter? Should it?

Verga has an edge in All-America designations. Mullins was second-team AP and UPI A-A in 1964. Verga was second-team AP and UPI A-A in both 1966 and 1967. The USBWA had a ten-player A-A team in those days. Mullins made it in 1964, Verga in 1967.

The NCAA record book recognizes Mullins as a consensus second-team A-A in 1964, Verga second-team in 1966 and first-team in 1967. Seven players were considered consensus first-team A-A in 1967.

Mullins was Duke's first hoops Olympian, in 1964. Verga never had the chance. Maybe helps Mullins' case but it shouldn't hurt Verga's.

Mullins has one advantage in the honors category. He was named ACC POY in 1964, defeating Billy Cunningham 78-22. Verga was in the "also received votes" category in 1965 and 1966. Verga led the voting for the All-ACC team in 1967 but finished second in the ACC POY voting, 52-48 to Larry Miller.

Could other factors have been in play? The following is simply my opinion. Mullins stayed close to the program. He was an assistant AD at Duke, an AD and head coach in the state (at UNC-C) and regularly came back to Duke for reunions and summer programs.

Verga, by contrast, did not stay close to the program. He went back to the northeast, became a tennis coach and did not regularly come back to Duke.

I'm not suggesting that Verga did anything wrong nor am I suggesting that Duke is somehow punishing Verga or rewarding Mullins along those lines. But the cliche "Out of sight, out of mind" became a cliche for a good reason. It's human nature.

So, maybe that was the tie-breaker. Or perhaps that ACC POY award. That's the only rational reason for retiring Mullins' jersey but not Verga's.

Considering that the actual number already is retired, I see no reason to not honor Verga and by extension honor the incredible decade of Vic Bubas, which IMO, is underrepresented in the rafters.
Jim, your post is a thorough and well written summary comparing and contrasting these two players. I can think of one other unofficial factor which might come to play, a factor that is not acknowledged by official circles.

Jeff Mullins was a prime example of the student athlete we all love: popular, gracious in all sorts of circumstances, class leader. Bob Verga, and also Art Heyman, followed his own "drummer." Bob sort of stayed to himself. He spent lots of time away from the campus and went to places like the Stallion Club.... not the popular expectations of athletes; instead sometimes trying the patience of administrators.

I remember hearing that not only did Eddie Cameron want very limited jersey retirements, i.e., only Dick Groat, the next star who could have been considered for jersey retirement was Art Heyman. During the time Artie play ball at Duke, there were those in the Duke community and the general public who didn't like him. They didn't approve of some of his antics, especially off court. Many years had to pass for that opposition to die down.

jimsumner
07-18-2010, 12:57 PM
I know that Cameron blocked Heyman's recognition for some time based on non-basketball factors. I also know that Bubas strongly supported retiring Heyman's jersey.

Verga was an interesting guy. He wasn't one of the guys and didn't hang around with his teammates all that much. Us old-timers remember when 1966 turned into 1967. Bubas suspended much of the team for the first game of 1967, Penn State, for curfew violations. Verga wasn't suspended because he didn't go to the New Year's party in question with Lewis, Riedy, et. al.

But that was over four decades ago and Eddie Cameron, may he rest in peace, isn't blocking anybody's ceremonies anymore. Water long under the bridge.

Indoor66
07-18-2010, 01:50 PM
I know that Cameron blocked Heyman's recognition for some time based on non-basketball factors. I also know that Bubas strongly supported retiring Heyman's jersey.

Verga was an interesting guy. He wasn't one of the guys and didn't hang around with his teammates all that much. Us old-timers remember when 1966 turned into 1967. Bubas suspended much of the team for the first game of 1967, Penn State, for curfew violations. Verga wasn't suspended because he didn't go to the New Year's party in question with Lewis, Riedy, et. al.

But that was over four decades ago and Eddie Cameron, may he rest in peace, isn't blocking anybody's ceremonies anymore. Water long under the bridge.

That was the Penn State game. We beat Penn State that night and the Penn State players were in tears a being beaten by the Duke "scrubs" led by, of course, Verga and little used Steve Vandenberg. A great night in Duke Indoor Stadium.

bluedevil2012
07-18-2010, 02:05 PM
You may have your numbers crossed with Carlos Boozer. The only Alaskan Assassin I knew wore 21.

No I just meant to type MP1

Verga3
07-18-2010, 02:59 PM
Maybe some have not seen this excellent doumentary piece narrated by Duke grad, Charlie Rose. http://www.snagfilms.com/films/title/a_cut_above_100_seasons_of_duke_basketball/

Great old film and recent (2006?) video interviews with Mullins, Verga, et al. What a sweet stroke Verga had...and he looks tan and rested in the garden, reflecting on two national championship runs (the '66 and '67 team part goes from about 49-54 minute mark). Enjoy.

Mods, feel free to move to or create another thread if you feel more appropriate.

Devilsfan
07-18-2010, 03:27 PM
Please enlighten us all to Cameron's non-basketball reasons for blocking Heyman. Thanks.

jimsumner
07-18-2010, 03:40 PM
"Please enlighten us all to Cameron's non-basketball reasons for blocking Heyman. Thanks"

Liked the ladies.

Devil in the Blue Dress
07-18-2010, 03:57 PM
"Please enlighten us all to Cameron's non-basketball reasons for blocking Heyman. Thanks"

Liked the ladies.

Various episodes like the one in the middle of Five Points downtown one night also didn't fit the image Duke wanted.

burnspbesq
07-18-2010, 09:38 PM
This leads to the second issue. Why hasn't Duke ever retired a number in any other sport?

Good question. Why not start with Ned Crotty and Amanda Blumenhurst? National players of the year who led Duke teams to national championships.

Bluedog
07-18-2010, 09:56 PM
Good question. Why not start with Ned Crotty and Amanda Blumenhurst? National players of the year who led Duke teams to national championships.

Hard to retire Amanda's number since golf doesn't use any...

OZZIE4DUKE
07-18-2010, 10:24 PM
Well, for starters, most women golfers don't wear numbers on their "jerseys" :D


Hard to retire Amanda's number since golf doesn't use any...
I knew I had read that somewhere else in this thread! :D

verga
07-18-2010, 11:30 PM
on retired jersey's stop and end with Bob Verga. Those who saw him play know his jersey should be retired, why then can't sensible people at Duke see it? Verga was not some borderline player, he was THE player on his teams. He played with Marin (a very good college & pro player), Mike Lewis and others. Gene Banks was certainly a big recruit for Duke and had a great career as did Jim Sparnarkel BUT they weren't special (although Sparnarkel got the most out of his ability than anyone i ever saw at Duke. Steve Vacendack was a good not great player, he was not even first team All ACC and because of his play in the ACC Tournament was named player of the year. That was by far the biggest slap in the face to any player (Verga) that i ever heard of. If you look at the Duke records, i think you'll see what Bob Verga did while at Duke. Should his jersey (with his name on it) hang in Cameron, you bet it should, he is far more deserving than any of the other guys mentioned for that honor.