NCAA Investigating UNC Athletic Program

[Newton_14]

No leaks yet but with football players among those being interviewed, it appears this is a football program investigation and not basketball related..

IC broke the story earlier today.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/story/7970534/

[CameronBornAndBred]

The heels might be being probed.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5384232

[Newton_14]

The heels might be being probed.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5384232

Check the first page. I started a thread on this about 30 minutes ago and linked the WRAL article on it.,

Mods, can we merge my thread and CB&B''s?

[Acymetric]

I wonder what people over at IC are saying about this. It'll be interesting to see what happens...some say its something big, others say just some summer workout violation. Wonder how long it is before we find out.

[CameronBornAndBred]

My bad, I looked and missed this thread. I'm dying to know what they are looking at. Current players? Recruiting? Arrrrgghh...
I'm giddy with thinking of how thousands of folks with season tix at Kenan are feeling right now. :D

[Newton_14]

My bad, I looked and missed this thread. I'm dying to know what they are looking at. Current players? Recruiting? Arrrrgghh...
I'm giddy with thinking of how thousands of folks with season tix at Kenan are feeling right now. :D

No worries! the mods will merge them.

On the Adam Gold show today, Jeff Gravely from WRAL reported that it does not appear that unc "self-reported" this, but rather, the NCAA found out on their own and notified unc they would be visiting...

Interested to see what the violations are.

[Kimist]

Just reporting ....the accuracy of article and any reader comments is totally unknown.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/story/7970534/

Excerpt from comments: "...say he thinks it's about a recruit that ended up going to Tenn a couple years ago and he claimed at the time that UNC def line coach ... tried to bribe him to come to UNC....The recruit posted it on his facebook or something...."

k

[roywhite]

ESPN article on the investigation (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5384232)


A source at North Carolina told ESPN.com's Joe Schad on Thursday that football players were interviewed by the NCAA this week and asked questions about agents and whether anyone had received gifts or extra benefits.

Defensive tackle Marvin Austin, who passed on the NFL draft and returned to UNC, was among the players interviewed, according to the source.

UNC has several players who are considered potential high draft picks, including a possible 3 in the first round according to an early mock draft.

[left_hook_lacey]

Yeah, everyone is staying pretty tight-lipped about this on both sides other than the fact both the NCAA and UNC are admitting the investigation. It almost sounds like this is a proactive investigation by the NCAA because of the Reggie Bush/O.J. Mayo outcome, but it's hard to imagine this getting so much attention from the NCAA without some sort of rumor or tip-off from someone reliable.

I can't wait to see where this goes.

[4decadedukie]

ESPN is now reporting, "The NCAA is investigating the North Carolina football team for a non-academic related issue, according to a source at the school."

[left_hook_lacey]

Here's another article on the subject. It gives a little more detail, but nothing definitive.

The article mentions that a player cannot make a commitment to an agent informal or otherwise if they intend to return to school. I didn't know that. I knew they couldn't hire an agent, but I didn't know they couldn't say they would, then change their mind.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/07/15/583219/ncaa-investigating-unc-athletics.html

[CameronBornAndBred]

"We try to do things in a first-class way," Baddour said. "In this case, we have to withhold some information. That's not typically how we would do things, we always want to be transparent."

That is just a bad comment. He may have honest intentions, but that is not the way to word an important statement. If those are the only words that can come out of your mouth, then "No comment" is a better solution.

[devildeac]

Heck, I'd vote for at least a couple years probation based on that fugly blue color they have on their unis, even if no NCAA misdeeds are found:rolleyes::D.

[roywhite]

Why so dour, Dick? Bad day?

[-bdbd]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/acc/2010-07-15-north-carolina-ncaa-investigation_N.htm

Not looking too great for the boys in baby blue...

Following the wonderful BB season performance, this could easily become a major distraction during the 2010 FB season.... Recruiting impacts could go further than just FB too. I wonder if/how this will affect the alumni/fan attitudes, bravado. Dare we use the term "humble" in the same sentence as "tar heel faithful" this coming year??? Naaahhhhh!!! But it sure does give us some great come-backs when faced with incessant heel crowing during the FB & BB seasons this year.

I wonder how the NC media will choose to cover the story. Hmmmm.

;) :rolleyes: :o :D





University of NCAA Cheaters, seems like a good start... Bumper sticker anyone?

[RelativeWays]

I hope the investigation brings up a couple of murky ethics issues and then UNC is cleared of any wrongdoing, no questions asked.

Why?

Because the next time a hole tries to bring up Corey Maggette as "proof" that K is somehow crooked, I'll just point this out, they'll shut the $^%& up and go away.

[CLT Devil]

Why so dour, Dick? Bad day?

More like "Bad week, Dick."

Star linebacker arrested, housefire with two other team mates, NCAA comes a knockin'.

If it is true that Facebook was the start of all of this I could see a ban coming for all UNC athletes, or excuse me, 'Student Athletes.'

[sandinmyshoes]

Most of the rumors seem to float around Marvin Austin and some nice cars he's been seen driving around. It all smells of agent.

While it's fun to watch my UNC friends squirm nervously, it brings to mind just how much an issue agents are becoming. I wonder what kind of legal stumbling blocks there would be in trying to license agents through the NCAA?

[left_hook_lacey]

More like "Bad week, Dick."

Star linebacker arrested, housefire with two other team mates, NCAA comes a knockin'.

If it is true that Facebook was the start of all of this I could see a ban coming for all UNC athletes, or excuse me, 'Student Athletes.'

I wonder if this is somehow related to Ole Roy telling his players they needed to cut back on the tweeting and such.

[CameronBornAndBred]

http://www.sportsagentblog.com/2010/07/16/the-unc-football-scandal/

This article is the most telling I've read. If even one sentence bears out to be fact, they are totally up the creek.

[DevilHorns]

I know this is off topic slightly, but have you all heard about this:

http://www.frumpzilla.com/frumpzilla_site/articles/wayne-ellington-lived-the-life-at-unc/

I wonder if there is any credit to any of this, or if any media outlet has actually tried to investigate.

[left_hook_lacey]

http://www.sportsagentblog.com/2010/07/16/the-unc-football-scandal/

This article is the most telling I've read. If even one sentence bears out to be fact, they are totally up the creek.

That's another interesting view. The article mentions 38 states have laws against agents giving these student athletes gifts and such, but we never hear about any fines being levied or the agency in question getting banned from a certain campus. Maybe it does happen, but just doesn't get the same coverage. Maybe if these agencies had to pay the fines and get the suspensions on the level of some of these schools that get caught it would help derail what seems to be a skyrocketing problem in college sports.

They started the show with this story today on College Football Live on ESPN, and they seemed to think that a lot of the concern was around Marvin Austin, which is a recurring theme in the articles written about this so far. I hope with everything in me that a student-athlete of his caliber and potential at a prominent ACC school would not be so dumb as to been seen driving around in a Bentley that was given to him illegally.

[oldnavy]

Well now Ol Roy can throw Butch under the bus!! I can hear him now answering questions after a tough loss, "well dag gum it, at least I run a clean program, and don't have the NCAA looking up my butt".

[Devilsfan]

That's not very nice. The Ol'Roy I remember would ALWAYS take responsibility for his actions and NEVER feel sorry for himself. Take the Wear twins transfering. Didn't he publically say it was his fault? NOT!!!

[oldnavy]

That's not very nice. The Ol'Roy I remember would ALWAYS take responsibility for his actions and NEVER feel sorry for himself. Take the Wear twins transfering. Didn't he publically say it was his fault? NOT!!!

I think he actually equated it to the gulf oil crisis while having a waxing at the tanning salon.

[roywhite]

This is an interesting twist in the investigation of some Tarheel football players. NCAA investigators have talked to South Carolina TE Weslye Saunders (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5390529), who is reportedly a close friend of North Carolina DT Marvin Austin.

Some may recognize Saunders as the son of N&O columnist Barry Saunders.

[K>Roy]

I know this is off topic slightly, but have you all heard about this:

http://www.frumpzilla.com/frumpzilla_site/articles/wayne-ellington-lived-the-life-at-unc/

I wonder if there is any credit to any of this, or if any media outlet has actually tried to investigate.

Yes to your first question, and no to your second. The media wouldn't TOUCH this when it was an issue and I don't expect it to have a change of heart any time soon. Like I've said in other threads, Roy is FAR from clean.

[weezie]

Some may recognize Saunders as the son of N&O columnist Barry Saunders.

Recognize, yup. Probably the loudest mouthed anti-Duke talker on the planet. He took a fine star turn during the lax hoax.
Once in a while I hear his show on the Sirius "Hardcore" sports channel, which, by the way, is an offensive and unnecessary slot on the satellite dial, meriting no more than a minute or two at a time. Serves absolutely no purpose, which is also why Barry is on there, I'm guessing.

But anyway, "what goes around comes around" and after all the years of Daddy Barry's insulting yapping, I wonder how he likes his own little boy being slapped by the big bad media types, not to mention the cold-blooded NCAA folks.

It's not quite so much fun now, is it Barry?

[uh_no]

I think he actually equated it to the gulf oil crisis while having a waxing at the tanning salon.

it was the hatian earthquake, not the oil spill

[Duvall]

Recognize, yup. Probably the loudest mouthed anti-Duke talker on the planet. He took a fine star turn during the lax hoax.
Once in a while I hear his show on the Sirius "Hardcore" sports channel, which, by the way, is an offensive and unnecessary slot on the satellite dial, meriting no more than a minute or two at a time. Serves absolutely no purpose, which is also why Barry is on there, I'm guessing.

What radio show?

[devildeac]

Recognize, yup. Probably the loudest mouthed anti-Duke talker on the planet. He took a fine star turn during the lax hoax.
Once in a while I hear his show on the Sirius "Hardcore" sports channel, which, by the way, is an offensive and unnecessary slot on the satellite dial, meriting no more than a minute or two at a time. Serves absolutely no purpose, which is also why Barry is on there, I'm guessing.

But anyway, "what goes around comes around" and after all the years of Daddy Barry's insulting yapping, I wonder how he likes his own little boy being slapped by the big bad media types, not to mention the cold-blooded NCAA folks.

It's not quite so much fun now, is it Barry?

It is rather delicious now. Squirm, barry, squirm.

[devildeac]

What?

I can't vouch for his presence on Sirius but I can verify his hatred of all things Duke, especially with his repeated diatribes and hatred of all the "privileges" the members of the LAX team had and "abused" during their ordeal. The Triangle has yet to read/hear of an apology from this clown of a "journalist," something at least Ruth Sheehan had the courage to do and Joseph Neff had the intelligence to pursue and even win some award/s for his fine investigations and reporting. There's a lot more to this but delves deeply into a now forbidden subject here and extensive PPB board material.

[killerleft]

I can't vouch for his presence on Sirius but I can verify his hatred of all things Duke, especially with his repeated diatribes and hatred of all the "privileges" the members of the LAX team had and "abused" during their ordeal. The Triangle has yet to read/hear of an apology from this clown of a "journalist," something at least Ruth Sheehan had the courage to do and Joseph Neff had the intelligence to pursue and even win some award/s for his fine investigations and reporting. There's a lot more to this but delves deeply into a now forbidden subject here and extensive PPB board material.

Well said.

[roywhite]

FWIW, I've heard from someone reasonably well plugged into UNC talk that they expect Marvin Austin and one or two other guys to have to come up with their own money to re-imburse expenses for a trip to Miami and that nothing else much will come from the investigation.

Seems like a lot of NCAA attention if that's all there is to it...I guess we'll find out in due time (hopefully less time than it took to resolve the Reggie Bush/ Southern Cal stuff).

[left_hook_lacey]

According to ESPN First Take this morning, the NCAA is also investigating a rules violation by Florida Gators standout Maurkice Pouncey. He allegedly accepted $100k from an agent during the break between the SEC championship game, and the Sugar Bowl game against Cincinnati.

According to Florida admin, they discovered the information in June and reported it to the SEC and the NCAA.

If it is determined that Pouncey is guilty of the infraction, Florida may have to vacate its Sugar Bowl victory last year.

It sounds like the NCAA has been a busy group this summer.

Back on topic: I have several family members that are UNC alum, and after speaking with them this weekend, they're feeling better about the NCAA investigation surrounding the football program right now. A couple of them have pretty good sources, but they're UNC sources obviously, not NCAA sources. As we all know, UNC fans can being erroneously optimistic at times.

[CEF1959]

Like I've said in other threads, Roy is FAR from clean.

I've read your other posts and find them unpersuasive on this point. Too much supposition and innuendo. Roy's not getting a Christmas card from me this year either, but if you're going to make serious allegations like that, I think you have to do a better job substantiating. And hedging by calling him "not a cheater per se, but crooked" doesn't illuminate much for me.

[Newton_14]

FWIW, I've heard from someone reasonably well plugged into UNC talk that they expect Marvin Austin and one or two other guys to have to come up with their own money to re-imburse expenses for a trip to Miami and that nothing else much will come from the investigation.

Seems like a lot of NCAA attention if that's all there is to it...I guess we'll find out in due time (hopefully less time than it took to resolve the Reggie Bush/ Southern Cal stuff).

That is not the word in the Triangle Roy. It is going the other direction. All the Sports Talk Radio shows today and the WRAL site are indicating that Austin is done as a tarheel. The exact comment from one of the inside sources talked to at unc was "The next time you see Marvin Austin will be at the NFL Combine next Feb."

I guess the good news for the tarheel faithful is the NCAA may make them "vacate" their Meinike Bowl losses!:eek:

Someone today likened the situation to getting caught cheating on an exam you made a D on...

GTHC GTH

[oldnavy]

it was the hatian earthquake, not the oil spill

Uh No... he equated the loosing streak last year to the Haitian earthquake. I was being a smart butt by saying he would probably equate the the Wear twins transfer to the oil spill crisis this year.

[oldnavy]

FWIW, I've heard from someone reasonably well plugged into UNC talk that they expect Marvin Austin and one or two other guys to have to come up with their own money to re-imburse expenses for a trip to Miami and that nothing else much will come from the investigation.

Seems like a lot of NCAA attention if that's all there is to it...I guess we'll find out in due time (hopefully less time than it took to resolve the Reggie Bush/ Southern Cal stuff).

So would it really work that way? You get busted cheating, but you can come up with the $$ to pay off the illegal benefit you received and the NCAA says... "cool"? That doesn't pass the sniff test to me. Seems like once you were discovered to have accepted illegal gifts it would be too late to pay them back. I might see it, if UNC or Austin had confessed and self reported. I just don't see the NCAA saying all is forgiven, just pay back the agent....

[roywhite]

That is not the word in the Triangle Roy. It is going the other direction. All the Sports Talk Radio shows today and the WRAL site are indicating that Austin is done as a tarheel. The exact comment from one of the inside sources talked to at unc was "The next time you see Marvin Austin will be at the NFL Combine next Feb."

I guess the good news for the tarheel faithful is the NCAA may make them "vacate" their Meinike Bowl losses!:eek:

Someone today likened the situation to getting caught cheating on an exam you made a D on...

GTHC GTH

By all means, I hope the truth comes out and there are some appropriate consequences.

I really don't see a reasonable excuse for a guy like Austin to have improper contact with an agent and to accept gifts (allegedly). You often see or hear the story that the kids aren't getting a fair shake, the school and the NCAA is making plenty of money off their labors and the kids aren't getting paid, etc., etc.

This is a guy that could have turned pro after last season! The pros were interested, and he likely would have been drafted fairly high. Come on, Marvin, why come back to school if you truly want to play for pay?

[devildeac]

Well said.

Thank you. I've read a number of his pieces over the years but stopped after the drivel he penned during the LAX fiasco. Disgusting stuff.

[WiJoe]

I've read your other posts and find them unpersuasive on this point. Too much supposition and innuendo. Roy's not getting a Christmas card from me this year either, but if you're going to make serious allegations like that, I think you have to do a better job substantiating. And hedging by calling him "not a cheater per se, but crooked" doesn't illuminate much for me.

What do you want? A photo of huck handing princess harriet a C not? Seriously.

[moonpie23]

Thank you. I've read a number of his pieces over the years but stopped after the drivel he penned during the LAX fiasco. Disgusting stuff.



barry is a blithering idiot.......trust me, when he does speak/write about it, the words "black" and "white" will be within syllables of the first line.....

[Big Pappa]

Not totally related, but this is a nice little article (I just threw up in my mouth a little bit) about UNC next year:

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/13386/summer-buzz-north-carolina

[oldnavy]

barry is a blithering idiot.......trust me, when he does speak/write about it, the words "black" and "white" will be within syllables of the first line.....

Unfortunately that is the only way some people can view the world. That is, everything, everyone, all actions and all inactions are motivated by hatred towards a group of people. It is sad (mostly for the folks that view the world that way) and more importantly distracts from the true issues at hand. Barry Saunder (BS if you will :D) has that view point. It is very hard to take anything he says serious when you know that.

[oldnavy]

Not totally related, but this is a nice little article (I just threw up in my mouth a little bit) about UNC next year:

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/13386/summer-buzz-north-carolina

Seems to be overly optimistic to me. Picking out one minor(?) statistic that UNC did well and extrapolating that to mean that they will build on that and become a better team? I dunno about that. Maybe, but what about turnovers, outside shooting, chemistry, defense, defensive rebounding, assists, you know, just about every other aspect of the game that they did poorly in last year?

[flash]

For those that would like to console Barry in his hour of need.....
barry.saunders@newsobserver.com

[uh_no]

Uh No... he equated the loosing streak last year to the Haitian earthquake. I was being a smart butt by saying he would probably equate the the Wear twins transfer to the oil spill crisis this year.

i'm not sure 4 months ago qualifies as last year.....but w/e

[CameronBornAndBred]

So would it really work that way? You get busted cheating, but you can come up with the $$ to pay off the illegal benefit you received and the NCAA says... "cool"? That doesn't pass the sniff test to me. Seems like once you were discovered to have accepted illegal gifts it would be too late to pay them back. I might see it, if UNC or Austin had confessed and self reported. I just don't see the NCAA saying all is forgiven, just pay back the agent....
Exactly. You can't pay back the bank after you rob it and still expect not to go to jail. That would equate to them saying "it's fine with us...as long as you don't get caught". I can't imagine any scenario where he (Austin) wears his uniform this season and the NCAA still maintains any dignity. It will be curious to see if they stop only with Austin, or penalize the program in any way.

[oldnavy]

i'm not sure 4 months ago qualifies as last year.....but w/e

It would qualify as the last year in terms of basketball. Do you really have that big of a problem admitting to a simple mistake? Lighten up a little, you will live longer.

[oldnavy]

Exactly. You can't pay back the bank after you rob it and still expect not to go to jail. That would equate to them saying "it's fine with us...as long as you don't get caught". I can't imagine any scenario where he (Austin) wears his uniform this season and the NCAA still maintains any dignity. It will be curious to see if they stop only with Austin, or penalize the program in any way.

I agree, that is a great analogy. This sounds like some serious UNC spin or unfounded optimism to me.

[A-Tex Devil]

Butch Davis was asking for this when he hired John Blake (http://barkingcarnival.fantake.com/2010/07/19/the-north-carolina-agent-fiasco-the-john-blake-stain/) as his recruiting coordinator.

This is a man who has not been successful at the X's and O's of football at any point in his career, but somehow he continues to get hired. Wonder why.

[Duvall]

Butch Davis was asking for this when he hired John Blake (http://barkingcarnival.fantake.com/2010/07/19/the-north-carolina-agent-fiasco-the-john-blake-stain/) as his recruiting coordinator.

This is a man who has not been successful at the X's and O's of football at any point in his career, but somehow he continues to get hired. Wonder why.

Recruiting?

[oldnavy]

Recruiting?

I'm gussing the point is... how does he recruit so well if he isn't that successful (wins and losses)? Maybe a little shady??? I have no idea, never heard of the guy.

[A-Tex Devil]

I'm gussing the point is... how does he recruit so well if he isn't that successful (wins and losses)? Maybe a little shady??? I have no idea, never heard of the guy.

John Blake was the OU head coach in the late '90s and recruited most of the team that Stoopsie won his national championship with. He has been associated with so many dirty programs the past 20 years (if you include Switzer's Cowboys in that equation :D) it's laughable. He's basically Ed Orgeron with looser ethics.

[Newton_14]

John Blake was the OU head coach in the late '90s and recruited most of the team that Stoopsie won his national championship with. He has been associated with so many dirty programs the past 20 years (if you include Switzer's Cowboys in that equation :D) it's laughable. He's basically Ed Orgeron with looser ethics.

To add to that, according to one of the stories I read indicated that Blake has the same agent that is reportedly involved with Austin. That is not cool either. Talk about a conflict of interest, the defensive line coach pimping his agent to his linemen? Not cool..

[CameronBornAndBred]

Nice...they are taking a look at a 'Bama player too! I wouldn't mind them being a man down in Wallace Wade.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5396236

[left_hook_lacey]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5440118

This article says that NCAA investigators are back on campus today at UNC-CH.

There are so many investigations into football programs by the NCAA right now, I wonder if some of these violations being investigated could affect more than one school. For example, there's a player from South Carolina that was allegedly on the same Maimi trip with UNC D-Lineman Marvin Austin in which the NCAA is trying to find out who funded the trip.

The NCAA back on UNC's campus today makes me think they could be there for one of two reasons.......

1.) They're investigating players who might be involved in a broad group that committed the same violation, or committed violations that were funded by the same agency....or

2.) They're there to give a ruling on the current UNC investigation, and discuss, or dare I say negotiate possible disciplinary action.

I find it hard to believe that the NCAA would show up in person to deliver a judgment, or negotiate the terms of punishment. But, I'm not an AD either. So I don't know how those things are usually handled. But I do know that the NCAA tends to show leniency towards programs that try to play by the book and monitor themselves well. UNC seems to have done that over the years, so I guess option #2 isn't too far off from a realistic possibility. I wonder how well that will go over with other fan bases that have been punished if Austin is found guilty but still allowed to play.

All this has come out the same day that UNC made a top-25 ranking at #17 in the pre-season poll. I guess this is a bitter-sweet week for Tarheel football fans. Can't wait to see how this plays out as they're gearing up for their 1st game of the year against LSU. They will definitely need M. Austin and G. Little in that game.:confused:

[weezie]

Well, I surely do hope that the fine folks at the 'hole athletic department served them up a nice bbq lunch!

[BD80]

To add to that, according to one of the stories I read indicated that Blake has the same agent that is reportedly involved with Austin. That is not cool either. Talk about a conflict of interest, the defensive line coach pimping his agent to his linemen? Not cool..

In today's economy it is called efficiency.

Wonder if Blake gets a little juice for each player that signs with his agent ...

[OldPhiKap]

"UNC -- The Miami of the North"

[Duvall]

Butch Davis was asking for this when he hired John Blake (http://barkingcarnival.fantake.com/2010/07/19/the-north-carolina-agent-fiasco-the-john-blake-stain/) as his recruiting coordinator.

This is a man who has not been successful at the X's and O's of football at any point in his career, but somehow he continues to get hired. Wonder why.

Well this certainly doesn't sound good (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=ys-agentcoach080910).


Three sources close to an NCAA probe into the University of North Carolina football program told Yahoo! Sports that investigators are focusing on ties between assistant coach John Blake and prominent NFL agent Gary Wichard.

The sources said the NCAA’s inquiry into Blake has focused on his one-time position as vice president of football operations for Pro Tect Management – an agency founded and run by Wichard since 1979. Blake is now a defensive line coach for the Tar Heels, and oversees All-ACC tackle Marvin Austin, who is also facing NCAA scrutiny.

The sources said the NCAA is investigating trips Austin took to Florida, as well as his travel and training in California in the summer of 2009, when he worked out at Proactive Sports Performance with former Tar Heel and current Wichard client Kentwan Balmer.

[OldPhiKap]

I would hate to see them void their wins from last year. . . .

[whereinthehellami]

Part of Blake's MO when recruiting is to come off as deeply religious. Which is something that Bobby Bowden also did. How does that work? You get the stud of your choosing to come for an official visit, hook them up with woman, food, and anything else they want, and then you mention that you are man of GOD. I guess it works but it strikes me as creepy.

[CEF1959]

It sells BIG TIME to parents, particularly to the single mothers and grandmothers who bring many of these guys up. Plus, what 18 year old doesn't want to hear this message: "Partying with beautiful women and being right with God go hand in hand here." Win win.

[left_hook_lacey]

There was an article up on UNC's website just last week that this kid was showing flashes of play making ability and could be a valuable asset to fill in gaps, especially if the NCAA comes down hard on Marvin Austin.

From Butch Davis.....

"Brandon Willis and his father informed us that he is going to withdraw from school. It's a sad situation. Brandon lost his mother less than a year ago and they've gone through some family hardships and some family difficulties. His father has been looking for employment and was informed yesterday that he was able to find a job. The unfortunately thing is he found a job in Southern California and he is really adamant about trying to keep his family together. He's asked both of his sons to join him in moving out there. That's all that we really know at this time. We're happy that his father was able to find a job in this economy. Brandon is a good kid and we wish him the best."

I don't wish injury or bad luck on anyone, but how great would it be if we could sneak one from UNC this year given all the pre-season kudos they've been getting from the press. Granted, the media praise was for the defensive potential, but losing to us would add insult to injury on a season most UNC fans thought to be a huge turning point. It'll be interesting to see how all of this plays out.

[CameronBornAndBred]

There was an article up on UNC's website just last week that this kid was showing flashes of play making ability and could be a valuable asset to fill in gaps, especially if the NCAA comes down hard on Marvin Austin.

From Butch Davis.....

"Brandon Willis and his father informed us that he is going to withdraw from school. It's a sad situation. Brandon lost his mother less than a year ago and they've gone through some family hardships and some family difficulties. His father has been looking for employment and was informed yesterday that he was able to find a job. The unfortunately thing is he found a job in Southern California and he is really adamant about trying to keep his family together. He's asked both of his sons to join him in moving out there. That's all that we really know at this time. We're happy that his father was able to find a job in this economy. Brandon is a good kid and we wish him the best."

I don't wish injury or bad luck on anyone, but how great would it be if we could sneak one from UNC this year given all the pre-season kudos they've been getting from the press. Granted, the media praise was for the defensive potential, but losing to us would add insult to injury on a season most UNC fans thought to be a huge turning point. It'll be interesting to see how all of this plays out.

I saw this on WRAL's site...lots of conspiracy theories floating around now that he's headed off to (apparently) USC and back to Lane Kiffin. Most of the theories are around the fact that Blake recruited him to UNC after his decommitment from Tennessee, now that Blake's fan is being hit, he's getting out before anyone comes knocking on Willis' door asking questions.
http://www.wralsportsfan.com/ugc/page/3530905/?id=8160507

[Duvall]

I saw this on WRAL's site...lots of conspiracy theories floating around now that he's headed off to (apparently) USC and back to Lane Kiffin. Most of the theories are around the fact that Blake recruited him to UNC after his decommitment from Tennessee, now that Blake's fan is being hit, he's getting out before anyone comes knocking on Willis' door asking questions.
http://www.wralsportsfan.com/ugc/page/3530905/?id=8160507

He's reportedly going to UCLA, not USC (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2010/08/ucla-football-bruins-pick-up-defensvie-tackle-brandon-willis.html).

[CameronBornAndBred]

He's reportedly going to UCLA, not USC (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2010/08/ucla-football-bruins-pick-up-defensvie-tackle-brandon-willis.html).
Rats! so much for the fun conspiracy theories..at least some of them. :mad:

[left_hook_lacey]

There was an article up on UNC's website just last week that this kid was showing flashes of play making ability and could be a valuable asset to fill in gaps, especially if the NCAA comes down hard on Marvin Austin.

From Butch Davis.....

"Brandon Willis and his father informed us that he is going to withdraw from school. It's a sad situation. Brandon lost his mother less than a year ago and they've gone through some family hardships and some family difficulties. His father has been looking for employment and was informed yesterday that he was able to find a job. The unfortunately thing is he found a job in Southern California and he is really adamant about trying to keep his family together. He's asked both of his sons to join him in moving out there. That's all that we really know at this time. We're happy that his father was able to find a job in this economy. Brandon is a good kid and we wish him the best."

I don't wish injury or bad luck on anyone, but how great would it be if we could sneak one from UNC this year given all the pre-season kudos they've been getting from the press. Granted, the media praise was for the defensive potential, but losing to us would add insult to injury on a season most UNC fans thought to be a huge turning point. It'll be interesting to see how all of this plays out.

Wow, I wasn't aware of the history. That really makes this story, and the whole investigation at UNC seem it may run deeper than anyone originally thought. Blake seems to have been a really bad apple in that basket. Makes you wonder how innocent Butch Davis really is in all of this.

What's the running count of scholarship players at UNC leaving for California? :D

[left_hook_lacey]

I saw this on WRAL's site...lots of conspiracy theories floating around now that he's headed off to (apparently) USC and back to Lane Kiffin. Most of the theories are around the fact that Blake recruited him to UNC after his decommitment from Tennessee, now that Blake's fan is being hit, he's getting out before anyone comes knocking on Willis' door asking questions.
http://www.wralsportsfan.com/ugc/page/3530905/?id=8160507

It was brought to my attention that I quoted my own post above. This post from CameronBornAndBred was I what I originally intended to quote. If you read the comments in my previous post, you'll see that it goes along with CameronBornAndBed's added information.

I was informed via the new comment feature that quoting my own post was "weak", so I just wanted to clear the air because that wasn't my intention. It was an accident.

I apologize for posting to the thread and bringing it back to the front page with nothing new to add, but I'm OCD about leaving something when I know it's wrong. Plus, quoting your own post is "weak", and I didn't want anyone to think I intentionally did that.

[CameronBornAndBred]

It was brought to my attention that I quoted my own post above. This post from CameronBornAndBred was I what I originally intended to quote. If you read the comments in my previous post, you'll see that it goes along with CameronBornAndBed's added information.

I was informed via the new comment feature that quoting my own post was "weak", so I just wanted to clear the air because that wasn't my intention. It was an accident.

I apologize for posting to the thread and bringing it back to the front page with nothing new to add, but I'm OCD about leaving something when I know it's wrong. Plus, quoting your own post is "weak", and I didn't want anyone to think I intentionally did that.
LOL...I figured what you had done but it was confusing at first..this board has a few things to get used to. It's unfortunate that someone else didn't think about this before they commented. Hopefully the mods can go back and review the comment you received and remove it. I'd PM them just so they know. As far as your answering post, it's a fair question about Davis. I would assume that he keeps tabs on what his assistants are doing, especially when it comes to recruiting.

[dukebluelemur]

Not sure if this deserves its own thread or not, Scout is reporting (http://northcarolina.scout.com/2/996024.html)UNC has submitted academic infractions (by its Football team) to the NCAA. Press conference later today.

[Olympic Fan]

Joe Schad just tweeted that the new case involves NINE players -- mostly significant players -- who had papers written for them by a former tutor.

Reportedly, the players involved were demoted to the scout team (at least temporarily). But UNC closed its practice today so nobody knows who was or was not demoted.

Press conference at 7:30 p.m. tonight may reveal some more news

PS More twitter trouble for the Heels (remembeing that Marvin Austin's tweets got this mess rolling). Earlier this morning, before the story about academic problems exploded, running back Shaun Draughan reportedly tweeted: "Is it bad that I hardly ever know the name of my classes or the professors name??"

[Duvall]

PS More twitter trouble for the Heels (remembeing that Marvin Austin's tweets got this mess rolling). Earlier this morning, before the story about academic problems exploded, running back Shaun Draughan reportedly tweeted: "Is it bad that I hardly ever know the name of my classes or the professors name??"

Uh-oh. Time for another Twitter briefing? (http://www.dailytarheel.com/index.php/article/2010/06/toning_down_the_tar_heels_tweets)

[OldPhiKap]

Uh-oh. Time for another Twitter briefing? (http://www.dailytarheel.com/index.php/article/2010/06/toning_down_the_tar_heels_tweets)

"Twit's tattling tweet tips N-C-two-A. News at eleven."

[left_hook_lacey]

According to Heather Dinich's sources, the players moved to the practice team Wednesday included Marvin Austin, Bruce Carter and Robert Quinn.

Wow, losing Marvin would be big, but losing all three for any amount of time is huge.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5501067

[SCMatt33]

So if the specific rumors on having papers written for the players are true, do they face disciplinary action from the university independent of whatever the athletics department or the NCAA does. I remember when Zack Asack was caught plagiarizing (before he was kicked off the team), he was suspended for two semesters from the university just like any other student would have been based on Duke's policies. Anyone know UNC's policy on the matter?

[SilkyJ]

PS More twitter trouble for the Heels (remembeing that Marvin Austin's tweets got this mess rolling). Earlier this morning, before the story about academic problems exploded, running back Shaun Draughan reportedly tweeted: "Is it bad that I hardly ever know the name of my classes or the professors name??"

You've GOT to be kidding me. Forgot about the timing (which is terrible, but not necessarily his fault), that's one of the DUMBEST things a college athlete could tweet. I think my eyes popped out of my head when I read this one.


"Twit's tattling tweet tips N-C-two-A. News at eleven."

And then this almost made me choke on my coffee. This has got to be at least the second time I've tried to give you some love for a joke that made me spit something up, but wasn't allowed b/c I had already done it recently! So instead, I'll give you the old

"POTD!"

You, sir, missed your calling as a comedian.

[Duvall]

Oh this isn't good (http://twitter.com/schadjoe/status/22212320128).

[CameronBornAndBred]

According to Heather Dinich's sources, the players moved to the practice team Wednesday included Marvin Austin, Bruce Carter and Robert Quinn.

Wow, losing Marvin would be big, but losing all three for any amount of time is huge.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5501067

The heels now have the best practice team in the country.

[dukebluelemur]

Maybe its a little mean spirited of me, but I am really looking forward to the press conference in about 15 minutes.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go pop some popcorn.

[alteran]

I'm planning to watch it in HD. I want to catch every bead of sweat.

[RoyalBlue08]

I wonder if there has ever been a football team that cheated to this level and won so few games.

[DevilWearsPrada]

I am watching live on WTVD 11 abc....... and Butch Davis looks like he is sweating!!!! The tutor involved is or was a babysitter for Davis. I stayed at home, just so I could see this conference live. The UNC Chancellor, Holden Thorp, states WE Will Get to the Bottom of This.

9 players, thus far are in question.

[DevilWearsPrada]

I wonder if there has ever been a football team that cheated to this level and won so few games.

LOL I just had a friend text me, that same thought!!!!!

Is cheating worth your college education or having games or titles striped away?

[Duvall]

I am watching live on WTVD 11 abc....... and Butch Davis looks like he is sweating!!!! The tutor involved is or was a babysitter for Davis. .

Worse - Davis said that she was an academic tutor for his son. It also sounded like she used to be a UNC athletic tutor, but is not now one and may not have been one at the time of the improprieties.

I'm also not sure what Baddour meant by "looking into improprieties that happened outside the classroom."

[SilkyJ]

Pls keep the updates coming. I'm on the west coast and still working (ok half-working)

[CameronBornAndBred]

The presser for those that missed it.
http://www.wralsportsfan.com/rs/video/8197533/

[left_hook_lacey]

I am watching live on WTVD 11 abc....... and Butch Davis looks like he is sweating!!!! The tutor involved is or was a babysitter for Davis. I stayed at home, just so I could see this conference live. The UNC Chancellor, Holden Thorp, states WE Will Get to the Bottom of This.

9 players, thus far are in question.

What's the latest? I live in Wilmington and can't get wtvd11. Local news has a ticker but it only says that the news conference just happened.

[Kimist]

Pls keep the updates coming. I'm on the west coast and still working (ok half-working)

Give this a try (30-minute press conference):
http://www.wralsportsfan.com/rs/video/8197533/

[DevilWearsPrada]

I feel like going over to Franklin Street (Chapel Hill) and wearing my DUKE FOOTBALL shirt, and walking around!!!!

Wonder how this will all play out? UNC is supposed to play LSU labor day weekend. Are any of the players involved actually starters???

[SilkyJ]

The presser for those that missed it.
http://www.wralsportsfan.com/rs/video/8197533/


Give this a try (30-minute press conference):
http://www.wralsportsfan.com/rs/video/8197533/

Thx guys. Someone needs to investigate the WRAL editing dept; several minutes of downtime to start the video. This is an on-demand world people!! (kidding, obviously. cool that they got it up so quickly)

[OldPhiKap]

You've GOT to be kidding me. Forgot about the timing (which is terrible, but not necessarily his fault), that's one of the DUMBEST things a college athlete could tweet. I think my eyes popped out of my head when I read this one.



And then this almost made me choke on my coffee. This has got to be at least the second time I've tried to give you some love for a joke that made me spit something up, but wasn't allowed b/c I had already done it recently! So instead, I'll give you the old

"POTD!"

You, sir, missed your calling as a comedian.

you're too kind. (And I'm blocked from reciprocating too -- for now).



Gotta hate this for the Heels. And by "gotta," I totally mean it's optional.

[4decadedukie]

A football team tutor, alleged to have enabled academic dishonesty (plagiarism) by six to twelve UNC "student-athletes," is also reported to have been Coach Davis' son's personal tutor (newsandobserver.com at http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/08/26/648977/unc-to-hold-news-conference-on.html).

[dukebluelemur]

Other than confirming that the tutor in question had in fact worked for Butch's family (wouldn't say whether the timing coincided with the academic violations) the thing was 30 minutes of nothing. Started out strong, about how important it was, but then gave no details and the administration is seemingly going to back Butch till the whole thing goes down in flames.

The whole-hearted support for BD seemed really odd considering his connection to the tutor.

None of the 3 mentioned what is now being reported elsewhere, that 2 players have already been kicked off the team.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/13826589/unc-kicks-brown-burney-off-team-as-investigation-widens

Basically, no details, no facts, no concrete anything... just a lot of strongly worded promises.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Other than confirming that the tutor in question had in fact worked for Butch's family (wouldn't say whether the timing coincided with the academic violations) the thing was 30 minutes of nothing. Started out strong, about how important it was, but then gave no details and the administration is seemingly going to back Butch till the whole thing goes down in flames.

The whole-hearted support for BD seemed really odd considering his connection to the tutor.

None of the 3 mentioned what is now being reported elsewhere, that 2 players have already been kicked off the team.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/13826589/unc-kicks-brown-burney-off-team-as-investigation-widens

Basically, no details, no facts, no concrete anything... just a lot of strongly worded promises.
It's stunning to me as to how slow the unc camp is moving. They've known about this long enough to announce something..so let's compare to what Cut has done in similar situations..starting with the most obvious..Zack Asack.
Boom,...instantly booted and announced.
Same with the three young men the team lost in the offseason..they were kicked off the team (and out of school) before the sun came up. True..theirs was a firearms issue..but using Asack as the better comparison, Cut still wasted no time. There have been others as well that Cut (and Roof before him) dismissed for conduct not becoming of team members. I'm assuming that conduct also includes academic issues.

[4decadedukie]

It's stunning to me as to how slow the unc camp is moving. They've known about this long enough to announce something..so let's compare to what Cut has done in similar situations..starting with the most obvious..Zack Asack.
Boom,...instantly booted and announced.
Same with the three young men the team lost in the offseason..they were kicked off the team (and out of school) before the sun came up. True..theirs was a firearms issue..but using Asack as the better comparison, Cut still wasted no time.

Excellent point, and I would respectfully suggest this is not Coach Cut alone, but rather also reflects the attitudes and values of Dr. White and senior administrators. GOOD FOR ALL OF THEM AND GREAT FOR DUKE.

[CameronBornAndBred]

None of the 3 mentioned what is now being reported elsewhere, that 2 players have already been kicked off the team.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/13826589/unc-kicks-brown-burney-off-team-as-investigation-widens

From your link...


Additionally, the same source told CBSSports.com that "four players have been cleared and the rest are toast" -- meaning four of the defensive starters on Carolina's team.
Erin Summers of WRAL in Raleigh also reported that "it's all but four players on the starting defense who are involved in the academic infractions."

unc is doing themselves no favors by playing the waiting game on this if the above is true. They should take at least some pride in the ability to act swiftly..but it appears that's not the case.
Also if the above is true...Sean Renfree and his offense are licking their chops right now.

[Newton_14]

It's stunning to me as to how slow the unc camp is moving. They've known about this long enough to announce something..so let's compare to what Cut has done in similar situations..starting with the most obvious..Zack Asack.
Boom,...instantly booted and announced.
Same with the three young men the team lost in the offseason..they were kicked off the team (and out of school) before the sun came up. True..theirs was a firearms issue..but using Asack as the better comparison, Cut still wasted no time. There have been others as well that Cut (and Roof before him) dismissed for conduct not becoming of team members. I'm assuming that conduct also includes academic issues.

Could not agree more CB&B. I do not get their approach? Moving all 8 of those guys to the "practice squad" clearly labels them as potential goners. It appears unc wants to wait to the last possible minute to either take action against the kids in trouble or admit to anyone those kids are in trouble.

If this is as bad as it appears, the best move would be dismiss all of them now and move on. Waiting for the NCAA to do that for you will score them zero points with the NCAA and will likely make the coming punishment worse.

Given that the tutor was Davis's nanny this has to make his job status iffy. Someone has to take the fall for allowing this to happen.

The looks on the faces of the unc brass during the conference were about as intense as it gets. Davis looked like a nervous wreck and he was sweating bullets.

If they end up losing 7 starters and 1 reserve on defense their season just went down in flames..

[sandinmyshoes]

After what quick action did to our LAX team, I think we Duke fans should know better than most that before you start punishing players you make sure of the facts. Moving the players to the practice squad appears to be designed to get their possible replacements some prep before their opening game against LSU. A precautionary measure should you lose them for good.

It does, however, appear that UNC is very early in going public, or slow to take action. Can't really tell which from that press conference.

[Greg_Newton]

If they end up losing 7 starters and 1 reserve on defense their season just went down in flames..

And honestly, I hope this happens. I would hate to see something like this happen to their basketball program, but I have no love for Butch Davis and UNC's suddenly-loaded-with-NFL-talent football program. If the squad that bullied around our bunch of hard-working 2-stars last year was put and held together by slippery means, then I hope they get everything that's coming to them. Good riddance. Build your program the right way and don't cut corners, UNC. :mad:

[CameronBornAndBred]

After what quick action did to our LAX team, I think we Duke fans should know better than most that before you start punishing players you make sure of the facts. Moving the players to the practice squad appears to be designed to get their possible replacements some prep before their opening game against LSU. A precautionary measure should you lose them for good.

It does, however, appear that UNC is very early in going public, or slow to take action. Can't really tell which from that press conference.
I agree on the quick to judge, and you are correct that as Duke fans we should be the first to champion that cause..BUT...if the heels actually have moved those guys to the scout team then that is a bad move on their part. What's the purpose? And more importantly what signal does it send to the public? It says to me flat out..."we think these guys screwed up very badly". And if they think that, the message is already sent. If they really are unsure of their guilt, then they leave them in place, or at the very least give their backups more reps...but you stand by them publicly and privately. Moving them to scout team status is doing neither, and it speaks volumes. Well, it slurs volumes, because it translates into carolina dragging their heels. Literally.

[OldPhiKap]

After what quick action did to our LAX team, I think we Duke fans should know better than most that before you start punishing players you make sure of the facts.

Sand, you raise a good point. UNC should make sure that they know the facts before taking any permanent action. I have seen teams suspend players pending the investigation, though. And it sounds like there is more than a bunch of rumors to track down.

This is not a matter which should take months to investigate.

For all the loathing I have for all things Tar Heel, the University is not a fly-by-night operation. As I have gotten older I have gained a fair respect for the University. And I do not think that they will cover up a football scandal at the risk of their reputation. So ultimately I think that the truth will out itself here, and the school will want answers sooner rather than later.

CB&B -- I am assuming that the move keeps them from having to forfeit games if the tainted players are in a game and subsequently found to be ineligible, but if anyone knows the rule to be to the contrary please let me know.

[left_hook_lacey]

It does, however, appear that UNC is very early in going public, or slow to take action. Can't really tell which from that press conference.

I think they are intentionally going public early. In the back of my mind, I feel like UNC feels like it still has a chance to salvage this season and is trying to dot all of its i's and cross all t's to appease the NCAA.

If Butch Davis and crew thought that the players in question were going to be deemed ineligible for the season, I feel like they would've already let those players go. Let's not forget they hired a law team that used to work for the NCAA infractions committee to advise them. UNC's decisions right now are not ill-conceived IMO.


The fact they only demoted the players in question to the practice team tells me the coaching staff still feels like those players , even if found guilty, would only be missing single digit games if that. That alone gives the coaches reason to keep them on the team, but sit them and try to win without them as to not have to vacate any wins and keep their season goals alive.

I will say, given that UNC is not a repeat offender in this type of infraction, I feel the NCAA's decision on the players in question will be minimal. Granted, if we're talking games for the player's in question, that significantly increases the difficulty of UNC's season, but it doesn't totally close the door on it.

[CameronBornAndBred]

For all the loathing I have for all things Tar Heel, the University is not a fly-by-night operation. As I have gotten older I have gained a fair respect for the University. And I do not think that they will cover up a football scandal at the risk of their reputation. So ultimately I think that the truth will out itself here, and the school will want answers sooner rather than later.

Good point there too. They highlighted early that to wear the jersey is a privelege, and they came back to that often (which they should..any university should have that attitude). But it doesn't look good when news outlets are reporting your actions before you do..especially since you just sat down in front of the media for 30 minutes and said nothing.

[sandinmyshoes]

I agree on the quick to judge, and you are correct that as Duke fans we should be the first to champion that cause..BUT...if the heels actually have moved those guys to the scout team then that is a bad move on their part. What's the purpose? And more importantly what signal does it send to the public? It says to me flat out..."we think these guys screwed up very badly". And if they think that, the message is already sent. If they really are unsure of their guilt, then they leave them in place, or at the very least give their backups more reps...but you stand by them publicly and privately. Moving them to scout team status is doing neither, and it speaks volumes. Well, it slurs volumes, because it translates into carolina dragging their heels. Literally.

I would guess, and it's just that, the coaching staff has moved them to the scout team to get their probable replacements as much practice time as possible, as I suggested in my post. They are what Miracle Max would call "mostly dead".

From what I think I heard at that presser, it does not appear this will be concluded by the time of their game with LSU. I suppose they will, as a precautionary measure, hold out any suspected players. Of course, if it involves 7 starters or whatever, it's not like they'd have a win to vacate.

On the other hand, that is a very deep and talented defensive unit. No way I think they can beat LSU with even five starters missing in action, but I'm a long way from crowing when I look at our matchup with them.

[left_hook_lacey]

And honestly, I hope this happens. I would hate to see something like this happen to their basketball program, but I have no love for Butch Davis and UNC's suddenly-loaded-with-NFL-talent football program. If the squad that bullied around our bunch of hard-working 2-stars last year was put and held together by slippery means, then I hope they get everything that's coming to them. Good riddance. Build your program the right way and don't cut corners, UNC. :mad:

In all fairness to UNC and Butch Davis(I just threw up in my mouth a little), UNC has had teams with several NFL players in recent years, but they had a terrible coach in John Bunting. I mean, this is the same coach that had Superbowl-winning RB Willie Parker at 3rd string running back.

[Newton_14]

I think they are intentionally going public early. In the back of my mind, I feel like UNC feels like it still has a chance to salvage this season and is trying to dot all of its i's and cross all t's to appease the NCAA.

If Butch Davis and crew thought that the players in question were going to be deemed ineligible for the season, I feel like they would've already let those players go. Let's not forget they hired a law team that used to work for the NCAA infractions committee to advise them. UNC's decisions right now are not ill-conceived IMO.


The fact they only demoted the players in question to the practice team tells me the coaching staff still feels like those players , even if found guilty, would only be missing single digit games if that. That alone gives the coaches reason to keep them on the team, but sit them and try to win without them as to not have to vacate any wins and keep their season goals alive.

I will say, given that UNC is not a repeat offender in this type of infraction, I feel the NCAA's decision on the players in question will be minimal. Granted, if we're talking games for the player's in question, that significantly increases the difficulty of UNC's season, but it doesn't totally close the door on it.

I don't know. If they prove the nanny wrote the papers for the 7 or 8 guys as is being hinted at in some of these media reports I would think the punishment would be well beyond sitting out a couple of games. This investigation has now sprouted into 2 clearly different paths. It started out as improper contact and benefits from agents, and possible misconduct by the defensive line coach who has the same agent. That involves "x" amount of players and punishment of some form.

Now while investigating the agent related stuff, they find possible misconduct involving the Head Coaches former nanny turned tutor, allegedly writing papers on behalf of the players which is academic fraud. So this leg of the investigation involves "x' amount of players (possible that some players are in both buckets here) and punishment of some form.

I may be wrong but if it turns out that there is guilt by some in both legs of this investigation, I would think the punishment, especially in the academic fraud part of it, would involve more than a simple slap on the wrist and the players sit out a game or two.

[loran16]

For the record, whomever compared this to the LaX scandal is being very silly. Remember, this scandal arose from UNC's OWN joint-investigation. They obviously have some evidence on this. They probably know most of the players involved, if not all. They might not know the extent, or how long it has been going on, but there is obviously evidence here incriminating some people.

Also it is easy to say that Cut's example of cutting Asack was the way for UNC to go here, but be freaking realistic here. I'd imagine Cut would've had a lot harder time doing that if he was in UNC's position and Asack was a crucial star. UNC's in a bad position of having high expectations on it suddenly possibly being dashed. They have to handle this CAREFULLY.

If i were UNC, I think i'd do what they're doing:
First, Show some signs of punishment for PR and for the NCAA to see (Demoting players you know to be involved to the practice squad).
Second, Double and Triple check your evidence, make sure who is involved and to what extent.
Third, once that is done, eliminate those who are clearly guilty.

While it's probably clear that these players did commit the academic violations, they cannot afford, with their super high-expectations, to cut them off right away unless they're 100% sure and it's clear to the PUBLIC that they are 100% sure.

(On a side note: I love that they're facing this scandal. it's hilarious. But they're going about it the right way.)

[sandinmyshoes]

For the record, whomever compared this to the LaX scandal is being very silly. Remember, this scandal arose from UNC's OWN joint-investigation. They obviously have some evidence on this. They probably know most of the players involved, if not all. They might not know the extent, or how long it has been going on, but there is obviously evidence here incriminating some people.



That was me, and I do not think I was being the least bit silly. My point is that allegations are not proof, as we should well know. At this point, for all we know, all UNC is going on is allegations. CBS reports two players are gone, that sounds like there is proof for them. The other players perhaps had the same tutor, or have been alleged to have cheated, so UNC moves them to the practice team as a precaution.

I should imagine that the players get the same rights to a hearing as any other student in honor code violations. Could be they're denying that the tutor wrote any papers for them. Perhaps two of them admitted to the violation. We just don't know and therefore should be careful about making judgements about who is guilty of what.

That, I'll repeat again, is something we should have fresh in our memories.

[sleepybear]

Butch looks like he needs a massage.

[4decadedukie]

This is absolute speculation; however, UNC-CH perceives itself as an "elite" university (public Ivy, nation’s first public university, and so forth). Therefore, it seems likely to me that some known personage may have to be terminated -- especially if the scandal becomes even more widespread and acute -- for UNC institutionally to appear to have seriously addressed both the specific misdeeds alleged AND (more critically) the ethical environment that permitted them to occur. I am NOT suggesting that this situation has necessarily reached that point as yet, but I suspect it could if more students are involved in potential academic dishonesty, agent-related infractions, and/or some other illicit conduct. I believe UNC's leadership will be eager to demonstrate to all relevant constituencies that they take these things most earnestly and that the University demands accountability from coaches.

[Jarhead]

There are some posters that I disagree with, and some that I agree with. When it comes to meting out punishment. Two cohort groups are at risk, the students alleged to have cheated and the officials that may be guilty of failing in providing a proper level of institutional control.

Some here think that the University should temper its handling of guilty players in the first group if the NCAA would accept suspension for a few games. My view is that the guilty players should be punished by the University regardless of how the NCAA acts on this. Any student who hands in a paper prepared by someone else would, in my day, be shipped home. At Duke, it happened to Dick Groat who was suspended from school for a semester. That's why he only played for 2½ seasons. He managed to graduate, and to set some hoops records, though.

The second group, even if treated mildly by the NCAA, should be given commensurate treatment by the University Board of Governors. Some coaches and ADs have been fired for less.

As for the presser, it was sort of a slip sliding away act with not much information. All three of those guys looked like they were about to confess their sins, but they didn't. Butch looked like the one under the most pressure. They just said as little as possible, and they seemed to be hedging on what they may do about it. They are going to wait on the NCAA, and go from there, almost as if to say that punishment of the guilty will be as little as possible regardless of guilt.

[left_hook_lacey]

As for the presser, it was sort of a slip sliding away act with not much information. All three of those guys looked like they were about to confess their sins, but they didn't.

I was thinking the same thing when I watched the clip. All the UNC brass came to the table in dark suits as if they were pallbearers on the way to a funeral.

[SCMatt33]

It's stunning to me as to how slow the unc camp is moving. They've known about this long enough to announce something..so let's compare to what Cut has done in similar situations..starting with the most obvious..Zack Asack.
Boom,...instantly booted and announced.
Same with the three young men the team lost in the offseason..they were kicked off the team (and out of school) before the sun came up. True..theirs was a firearms issue..but using Asack as the better comparison, Cut still wasted no time. There have been others as well that Cut (and Roof before him) dismissed for conduct not becoming of team members. I'm assuming that conduct also includes academic issues.

Didn't Coach Cut not disclose the reasons for kicking him off the team, using the all encompassing "violation of team rules." He was specifically caught plagiarizing during the summer of '06 and missed the next season, but Ted Roof didn't have a choice in the matter since Asack was first suspended by the university for 2 semesters per student policy.

[4decadedukie]

Didn't Coach Cut not disclose the reasons for kicking him off the team, using the all encompassing "violation of team rules."

I believe you are correct.

[devildeac]

Paraphrasing the Crazies just a bit:


Sweat, Butch, sweat.

[wilko]

When is the right time to call the former recruits we were initially interested in that ultimately commited to UNC? No harm in a courtesy call right to feel them out, right?

It could go like this....

"Hi Son, Its been a while since we talked, I just wanted to check in and see how you were doing. There is alot of seeming chaos at your current destination. I could understand if you were unsure about your future and what impact that could have on your football career. They could wind up playing under sanctions and that could limit your potiential playing under a rebuilding program. If you have second thought's I'd like to talk to you further. Theres a place for you at Duke."

I dont exactly relish the role of "vulture".. but at the same time you cant blink when presented an opportunity, can you?

[RelativeWays]

This is absolute speculation; however, UNC-CH perceives itself as an "elite" university (public Ivy, nation’s first public university, and so forth). Therefore, it seems likely to me that some known personage may have to be terminated -- especially if the scandal becomes even more widespread and acute -- for UNC institutionally to appear to have seriously addressed both the specific misdeeds alleged AND (more critically) the ethical environment that permitted them to occur. I am NOT suggesting that this situation has necessarily reached that point as yet, but I suspect it could if more students are involved in potential academic dishonesty, agent-related infractions, and/or some other illicit conduct. I believe UNC's leadership will be eager to demonstrate to all relevant constituencies that they take these things most earnestly and that the University demands accountability from coaches.

The academic fraud is serious business. If the NCAA declares that UNC lacked institutional control and even if the sanctions are relatively light, I bet Butch is gone. The connections to him seem pretty direct and those alumni will not be able to tolerate the embarrassment (especially with the ridicule they'll be subjecting themselves from State and Duke fans, and UVA fans for that matter).

UNC will be caught by their oft repeated credo, the Carolina Way, which is either going to stand for the integrity they proclaim (Davis gets canned) or it rings hollow and UNC is a better fit for the SEC than we all thought.

[sandinmyshoes]

Having checked the various blogs, transcripts and emails from friends of mine who are UNC fans.

It appears that some of the reports might be at least partially incorrect. Burney tweeted that he had practice Friday, which isn't something someone kicked off the team would do.

The tutor in question doesn't appear to have been a nanny for Davis' family, but was hired as a tutor for his son.

So far it looks more like this is about suspicions and allegations than any proof at this point. Although you have to think there is so much smoke here that there has to be some fire.

Still makes for a bad August for UNC types, as DBR pointed out.

[sandinmyshoes]

I wonder how the tutoring program works at UNC?

I would think any school with strong, academic minded administrators would have the academic side of the school supply and administrate the tutors. The athletic programs would pay for them, but they wouldn't be able to pick and choose.

If that is the case, Davis might not be in as much hot water as I was first temtped to suspect. Well, other than having to face LSU with over half his starting defensive unit on the bench.

[sagegrouse]

I was going to post a message about the unseemly, well, bickering on this thread by pointing out that the argument was over when is it appropriate to sneer at UNC, its athletic program, and its fans. Even on the well-moderated DBR that's a pretty low standard and hardly worth arguing about. But.... the bickering has subsided.

I believe the Gold Standard for academics over athletics among public universities has been Michigan. Or, perhaps we should say the "Maize" Standard. The Rich Rodriguez matter shows, I believe, how seriously the U of Michigan administration takes these violations, which broke the rules on the time athletes spend on their sport under coaching supervision.

We'll see how UNC responds to more serious allegations. Here's what I would look for --

1. The athletes who accepted payments from agents are finished as college athletes.

2. Those who submitted papers prepared by tutors are suspended from the university, just as any other student would be.

3. The academic tutoring program has new leadership and probably a new reporting chain outside the athletic department. The tweet by running back Shaun Draughan ("Is it bad that I hardly ever know the name of my classes or the professors name??") will probably turn out to be the worst thing every written by a UNC athlete. One can only imagine how a responsible univesity would respond to such an embarrassing message.

4. Butch Davis is on big-time probation. Butch Davis is standing in really hot water over the appearance of impropriety; I mean, this situation is knee-slapping funny, where the same tutor who works with his family is guilty of writing papers for players. I mean, how about writing HS papers for Butch's son -- who's gonna check on that?

Whether Davis is gone or not depends not only on the seriousness of the charges but the exact wording of his contract.

Do I have any idea what I am talking about? No, not really, but this was a fun post to write.

sagegrouse

[Devilsfan]

UNC gives new meaning to the term "Student Athlete".. Their BB team is a lot more descrete.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Do I have any idea what I am talking about? No, not really, but this was a fun post to write.

Solid ideas, too.

[4decadedukie]

The follow quotation evidently is from UNC football player -- NOT "student-athlete" -- Shaun Draughan's Twitter-site: "Is it bad that I hardly ever know the name of my classes or the professors (sic) name??"

At sixty-four, it is difficult to make me speechless, but I must confess this public statement does so. Any student a fine, nationally recognized, university should: (a) have at least some marginal interest in academics and (b) have enough intelligence/commonsense to recognize the widespread and warranted ridicule, criticism and sarcasm such a public pronouncement will obviously engender. One has to wonder how Draughan could be so obtuse.

[Note: I eschew “social media” and thank Sage for the foregoing Twitter quotation.]

[alteran]

The follow quotation evidently is from UNC football player -- NOT "student-athlete" -- Shaun Draughan's Twitter-site: "Is it bad that I hardly ever know the name of my classes or the professors (sic) name??"

At sixty-four, it is difficult to make me speechless, but I must confess this public statement does so. Any student a fine, nationally recognized, university should: (a) have at least some marginal interest in academics and (b) have enough intelligence/commonsense to recognize the widespread and warranted ridicule, criticism and sarcasm such a public pronouncement will obviously engender. One has to wonder how Draughan could be so obtuse.

[Note: I eschew “social media” and thank Sage for the foregoing Twitter quotation.]

I thought this at first, but now I assume that Draughan was joking rather than being so stunningly obtuse. I've certainly heard variants of the "is it bad that I ... ? (http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGLS_enUS353US354&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=is+it+bad+that+I)" joke before.

But you never know. Even if it is a joke, it's not terribly good judgement, what with all the heat on UNC right now.

[Kimist]

I have been reading this thread with interest - both as a sports fan and especially as a Duke fan.

Although I know there are still many unknowns out there, can someone please address:

1 - When were these academic violations alleged to have occurred? It is still quite early in the academic year, especially if any of the violators are freshmen. Last year? Summer school?

2 - Were the problems perhaps with application essays and the like?

3 - Other than some not-so-smart Twitter messages, why did not some of the unc academic folks, such as professors/teachers, notice (report??) the problems? Are they (realistically) under some obligation to do so?

4 - It is my understanding that academic violations can bring far more severe NCAA repercussions than "mere" stuff like talking with sports agents and the like. If this assumption is correct, how can the prestigious unc system not put some serious heat on the football program and its entire coaching staff? (See ya!!!)

5 - I would love to view some input from a knowledgeable person regarding the "expectations" the NCAA has for academic issues as well as what one might reasonably expect should the (at last count) nine players be involved in academic fraud. This would include can unc somehow sweep all of this under the rug, or are they to a larger extent obligated to "act"?

Thanks to anyone who responds!

k

[4decadedukie]

Even if it is a joke, it's not terribly good judgement, what with all the heat on UNC right now.

That is absolutely correct. I am not at all sure it was intended as humor, but I suspect MANY important individuals from various UNC constituencies will not perceive it as such under the current circumstances.

[Jarhead]

When is the right time to call the former recruits we were initially interested in that ultimately commited to UNC? No harm in a courtesy call right to feel them out, right?

It could go like this....

"Hi Son, Its been a while since we talked, I just wanted to check in and see how you were doing. There is alot of seeming chaos at your current destination. I could understand if you were unsure about your future and what impact that could have on your football career. They could wind up playing under sanctions and that could limit your potiential playing under a rebuilding program. If you have second thought's I'd like to talk to you further. Theres a place for you at Duke."

I dont exactly relish the role of "vulture".. but at the same time you cant blink when presented an opportunity, can you?
http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/icon_boo.gif
Wow! That would be illegal under NCAA rules, wouldn't it? I think it's known as tampering.

[4decadedukie]

When is the right time to call the former recruits we were initially interested in that ultimately commited to UNC? No harm in a courtesy call right to feel them out, right?

It could go like this....

"Hi Son, Its been a while since we talked, I just wanted to check in and see how you were doing. There is alot of seeming chaos at your current destination. I could understand if you were unsure about your future and what impact that could have on your football career. They could wind up playing under sanctions and that could limit your potiential playing under a rebuilding program. If you have second thought's I'd like to talk to you further. Theres a place for you at Duke."

I dont exactly relish the role of "vulture".. but at the same time you cant blink when presented an opportunity, can you?


I could easily be wrong, wilko, but -- with respect -- I believe that is generally a poor idea. Any Duke "piling on" or "poaching" right now would almost certainly be perceived by the Carolina faithful (who substantially outnumber us, especially in-state) as underhanded and duplicitous. This would (IMHO) be especially so for formally committed student-athletes. Further, I am not sure NCAA policies would sanction such communications with committed players.

[OldPhiKap]

I'm not surprised by the allegations.



You can't spell "UNCredited author" without U-N-C.

[OldPhiKap]

http://www.unc.edu/depts/wcweb/handouts/plagiarism.html



"If you're interested in exactly how plagiarism is defined for the UNC community, see the Honor System webpage. Because it is considered a form of academic cheating and constitutes a serious violation of the University's Honor Code, the usual punishment for a student found guilty of plagiarizing is suspension for one semester and an "F" in the course."

[wilko]

http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/icon_boo.gif
Wow! That would be illegal under NCAA rules, wouldn't it? I think it's known as tampering.

To further clarify the point...
I'm talking about guys who are still in HS, NOT guys who have been to a college class or played a Down at a college practice.

Why wouldn't THIS be a consideration to influence a recruit to de-commit?
De-committing seems common for lesser things...

[JasonEvans]

http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/icon_boo.gif
Wow! That would be illegal under NCAA rules, wouldn't it? I think it's known as tampering.

I don't know NCAA rules but I cannot see how it would be illegal unless the recruit has already signed a letter of intent.

It may be somewhat immoral under football recruiting practices, but many teams continue to recruit players after thy have committed. It is not uncommon.

-Jason "I don't think Duke would do this anyway -- if the recruit contacted us but I don't think we would reach out like this" Evans

[Duvall]

I could easily be wrong, wilko, but -- with respect -- I believe that is generally a poor idea. Any Duke "piling on" or "poaching" right now would almost certainly be perceived by the Carolina faithful (who substantially outnumber us, especially in-state) as underhanded and duplicitous. This would (IMHO) be especially so for formally committed student-athletes. Further, I am not sure NCAA policies would sanction such communications with committed players.

There are no NCAA restrictions on communications with committed but unsigned players.

I don't see a problem with letting unsigned UNC recruits know that they have an alternative to signing on to the uncertain situation in Chapel Hill, as long as Duke's staff is honest about it.

[OldPhiKap]

There are no NCAA restrictions on communications with committed but unsigned players.

I don't see a problem with letting unsigned UNC recruits know that they have an alternative to signing on to the uncertain situation in Chapel Hill, as long as Duke's staff is honest about it.


I bet Lane Kiffin is working the phones as we type.

[devildeac]

I could easily be wrong, wilko, but -- with respect -- I believe that is generally a poor idea. Any Duke "piling on" or "poaching" right now would almost certainly be perceived by the Carolina faithful (who substantially outnumber us, especially in-state) as underhanded and duplicitous. This would (IMHO) be especially so for formally committed student-athletes. Further, I am not sure NCAA policies would sanction such communications with committed players.

How about if such a student/athlete or his family were to re-evaluate the situation and think they might wish to re-consider their verbal from this spring/summer and give Coach Cut a call?

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I bet Lane Kiffin is working the phones as we type.

Maybe Orgeron was already twitting......

[SCMatt33]

I bet Lane Kiffin is working the phones as we type.

What is his pitch. You should leave a situation where there is unknown NCAA trouble for one that just got the book thrown at it about ten times over?

[magjayran]

What is his pitch. You should leave a situation where there is unknown NCAA trouble for one that just got the book thrown at it about ten times over?

If you're gonna go to a school with sanctions in place, why not go to one with the rich football history of USC?

[CameronBornAndBred]

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/story/8199560/



Friday morning, Greg Barnes of Inside Carolina joined Mark Thomas and Mike Maniscalco on 620 The Buzz and cautioned Tar Heel fans to brace for the worst. (http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/audio/8199487/)
When asked how many players could be implicated and punished, Barnes said, "I think we are looking closer to double digits."

[Olympic Fan]

I could easily be wrong, wilko, but -- with respect -- I believe that is generally a poor idea. Any Duke "piling on" or "poaching" right now would almost certainly be perceived by the Carolina faithful (who substantially outnumber us, especially in-state) as underhanded and duplicitous. This would (IMHO) be especially so for formally committed student-athletes. Further, I am not sure NCAA policies would sanction such communications with committed players.

First, there is nothing against the rules about calling an unsigned prospect and trying to get him to change his mind. It happens all the time in football. The term "committed" as absolutely no meaning in NCAA terms. A prospects status only changes when he signs a letter-of-intent -- and even then, that's under the Collegiate Commissioners (which administers the LOI) and not the NCAA.

Just last year, Duke lost committed linebacker Darius Lipford to UNC when Butch Davis poached him from us. Davis tried very hard to get Josh Snead to change his mind.

Who cares what UNC fans think? They go after our committed players. If this convinces a UNC commitment to rethink his options, that great. I'm sure Coach Cut and his staff know who may or may not be wavering.

Go for it ... it's not illegal, it's not underhanded or duplicious. It's not even unusual.

[whereinthehellami]

UNC is in big trouble and they are the only ones to blame for this. This is huge and really something that will hang around for awhile. Kind of like Cousin Eddie in Christmas vacation regarding the jelly of the month club- "this a gift that keeps on giving". Thanks heel fans.

There is a thread over on IC on their starting lineup for the LSU game. Good luck figuring that one out fellows. could be a game time decision. I almost get the feeling that UNC would like to float their lineup card by the NCAA right before they play LSU. Kind of like, hey is this cool?

I hope the NCAA takes along time to sort through their laundry. I get the feeling that there will be alot more to find if they look and ask the right questions.

[Merlindevildog91]

What is his pitch. You should leave a situation where there is unknown NCAA trouble for one that just got the book thrown at it about ten times over?

His pitch is, when you come to USC, there won't be a lot of people in front of you jockeying for playing time, and by the time your redshirt year is over, we'll be back in the Rose Bowl. Isn't that better than going to a university that has no idea what punishment the NCAA will mete out?

Plus, have you seen the coeds at USC?

[Devilsfan]

With all the pre season hype and a pre season top ten ranking I bet Butch could see a BCS bowl invite and possible NC in sight and never thought they would ever get caught for improprieties. After all it seems to be a risk reward deal to them. Funny how the story broke the day AFTER Eskine left his post as head of the UNC system. Now everyone might have to write their own papers. Imagine that! I bet the curve gets lowered quite a bit.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Here are some names currently on the best scout team in America.



Among them were DE Robert Quinn, DL Quinton Alton, LB Quan Sturdivant, LB Bruce Carter, CB Kendric Burney, CB Charles Brown, DT Jared McAdoo, DB Curtis Campbell, LB Darius Lipford and S Da'Norris Searcy. One additional player ran with the scout team but could not be identified to make up the 11 players on that defensive team.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/story/8202237/

[Devilsfan]

If their football careers ever end they might try to audition for a role in the movies, say "The Longest Yard III".

[roywhite]

With all the pre season hype and a pre season top ten ranking I bet Butch could see a BCS bowl invite and possible NC in sight and never thought they would ever get caught for improprieties. After all it seems to be a risk reward deal to them. Funny how the story broke the day AFTER Eskine left his post as head of the UNC system. Now everyone might have to write their own papers. Imagine that! I bet the curve gets lowered quite a bit.


Butch Davis was asking for this when he hired John Blake (http://barkingcarnival.fantake.com/2010/07/19/the-north-carolina-agent-fiasco-the-john-blake-stain/) as his recruiting coordinator.

This is a man who has not been successful at the X's and O's of football at any point in his career, but somehow he continues to get hired. Wonder why.

A-Tex nailed this more than a month ago. The recent scandal(s) did not appear out of nowhere. If Butch's Miami background was not enough to view him skeptically, certainly his hire of John Blake as a key assistant was.

As the article that A-Tex linked indicated:


Butch Davis and the North Carolina Carolina Tar Heels made a statement to the college football world when they hired John Blake to head their football recruiting operations. .... One has to wonder what North Carolina – one of the nation’s most respected public universities and a school one does not generally associate with scandal – could have been possibly thinking?

[LSanders]

I have nothing of substance to add to this discussion (since I haven't been interested enough to follow it).

But, I had to say the DBR home page photo and headline brightened my day ... So, kudos!! :cool:

[airowe]

I'm not surprised by the allegations.



You can't spell "UNCredited author" without U-N-C.

Nor can you spell UNC-CHeat or University of Non-Compliance

[JasonEvans]

I was reading some of the stories on the Dr. Saturday's blog (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday)at Yahoo about the UNC mess and came across a line I found particularly funny.


At least nine players (and possibly as many as twelve) whose standing is in question have reportedly been relegated to the scout team as of Wednesday, at least a few of whom are big-name starters. So far, those names reportedly include All-America types Robert Quinn, Bruce Carter and of course Marvin Austin, the outgoing defensive tackle who – with his role at the center of ongoing inquiries into his alleged dealings with agents, trips to upscale California gyms, associations with former teammates now in the NFL and partying on South Beach – is well on his way to the scofflaw Hall of Fame as one of the most prolific NCAA delinquents in recent memory.

Over the last month, there's almost no rule in the labyrinthine NCAA rule book Austin hasn't been accused of breaking, or at least bending beyond recognition, in one way or another. And at this rate, the rest of the nation's most talented defense may going down right along with him before it ever sees the field.


--Jason "whew, got to be a sad day to be a Carolina football fan" Evans

[Acymetric]

First, there is nothing against the rules about calling an unsigned prospect and trying to get him to change his mind. It happens all the time in football. The term "committed" as absolutely no meaning in NCAA terms. A prospects status only changes when he signs a letter-of-intent -- and even then, that's under the Collegiate Commissioners (which administers the LOI) and not the NCAA.

Just last year, Duke lost committed linebacker Darius Lipford to UNC when Butch Davis poached him from us. Davis tried very hard to get Josh Snead to change his mind.

Who cares what UNC fans think? They go after our committed players. If this convinces a UNC commitment to rethink his options, that great. I'm sure Coach Cut and his staff know who may or may not be wavering.

Go for it ... it's not illegal, it's not underhanded or duplicious. It's not even unusual.

Exactly...some of our football fans may remember a guy named Sean Renfree, seems to me it would be just as acceptable (if not more so) to go after players committed to a school with NCAA infractions as it is to target players committed to schools that have undergone coaching changes like Georgia Tech that year.

[devildeac]

Nor can you spell UNC-CHeat or University of Non-Compliance

Now that's a new, updated version.

http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/laughing/lettersrofl.gifhttp://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/laughing/lmao.gif

[OldPhiKap]

Nor can you spell UNC-CHeat or University of Non-Compliance

Don't forget the biggie -- lack of insitUtioNal Control . . . .

[jimsumner]

The sequence on Renfree

1.Renfree commits to GT.
2.GT names Paul Johnson new head coach
3.Renfree de-commits from GT
4.New Duke coach David Cutcliffe contacts Renfree
5.Renfree commits to and signs with Duke

Duke did not recruit Renfree when he was still committed to GT.

I would not expect Duke to initiate contact with any UNC commits. Should they initiate contact, I would expect Duke to evaluate on a case-by-case basis.

[Olympic Fan]

The sequence on Renfree

1.Renfree commits to GT.
2.GT names Paul Johnson new head coach
3.Renfree de-commits from GT
4.New Duke coach David Cutcliffe contacts Renfree
5.Renfree commits to and signs with Duke

Duke did not recruit Renfree when he was still committed to GT.

I would not expect Duke to initiate contact with any UNC commits. Should they initiate contact, I would expect Duke to evaluate on a case-by-case basis.

I totally disagree, Jim.

Schools and coaches contact committed recruits all the time. Lipford never de-committed before he was stolen by UNC. We just lost a prized tight end in the current class who was poached. Roof lost a WR to Notre Dame a few years ago. Montel Harris, the great BC running back, was originally a Duke commitment.

I repeat, it happens all the time in football. There's nothing immoral or illegal about it.

I would hope that Coach Cut would know which UNC commits might actually be disturbed by the idea that the UNC program's academic reputation has been compromised and would at least inquire to see if they would be open to moving on.

[hughgs]

I wonder how the tutoring program works at UNC?

I would think any school with strong, academic minded administrators would have the academic side of the school supply and administrate the tutors. The athletic programs would pay for them, but they wouldn't be able to pick and choose.

If that is the case, Davis might not be in as much hot water as I was first temtped to suspect. Well, other than having to face LSU with over half his starting defensive unit on the bench.

Using your definition of athletic tutoring, Duke is not a school with strong, academic minded administrators.

[OldPhiKap]

Schools and coaches contact committed recruits all the time. Lipford never de-committed before he was stolen by UNC. We just lost a prized tight end in the current class who was poached. Roof lost a WR to Notre Dame a few years ago. Montel Harris, the great BC running back, was originally a Duke commitment.

I repeat, it happens all the time in football. There's nothing immoral or illegal about it.

I would hope that Coach Cut would know which UNC commits might actually be disturbed by the idea that the UNC program's academic reputation has been compromised and would at least inquire to see if they would be open to moving on.

Football recruiting is very different than basketball, as both of you illustrate. The two biggest things that Cut has brought to Duke, it seems to me, are (1) the attitude of a real Div-I contender; and (2) the recruiting acumen of a real Div-I contender. Cut and his staff recruited in the most competitive conference in the country, and they know the ropes. I trust they know how to play this game. It's not like SEC teams ever got into trouble in the last decade . . . .

I am sure that if there are players we were involved with prior to their commitment to UNC, they know where we are and still have Cut's number.

[SilkyJ]

Go for it ... it's not illegal, it's not underhanded or duplicious. It's not even unusual.

Oly (and others)-

Why the discrepancy b/w Football and Basketball on the morality and frequency of poaching recruits? It seems to me that its much more frowned upon and much less common in bball vs football. This is has been touched upon before on this board, but I've never really seen a good answer (maybe I missed it...).

[oldnavy]

I totally disagree, Jim.

Schools and coaches contact committed recruits all the time. Lipford never de-committed before he was stolen by UNC. We just lost a prized tight end in the current class who was poached. Roof lost a WR to Notre Dame a few years ago. Montel Harris, the great BC running back, was originally a Duke commitment.

I repeat, it happens all the time in football. There's nothing immoral or illegal about it.

I would hope that Coach Cut would know which UNC commits might actually be disturbed by the idea that the UNC program's academic reputation has been compromised and would at least inquire to see if they would be open to moving on.

I believe that this would be a Coach Cut decision based on his belief system. Although it may be common and legal, that does not make it necessarily profitable (1 Corinthians 10:23). If Cut, who knows the recruiting world much better than I do, feels it is the norm to do so and he is comfortable with it, then I see no reason he shouldn’t reach out to those players. If, however it is one of those things that is common, but regarded as a bit underhanded and he is not comfortable doing it, then of course he should not and probably would not. I just don't know the inside workings of College FB recruiting enough to say if he should or shouldn’t, but HE will know. If this were basketball, we would trust K to do the right thing; I figure Cut will do the same.

[Devilsfan]

Nothing to add. I just like seeing this news at the top of all topics. Living amongst so many self proclaimed "higher than thou" heels fans this gives me all most as much pleasure as ol'roy complaining as he spends his millions and under achieves as a head coach and leader. I bet there are a lot of good people of Haiti who would gladly trade places in life with him.

[ChillinDuke]

Oly (and others)-

Why the discrepancy b/w Football and Basketball on the morality and frequency of poaching recruits? It seems to me that its much more frowned upon and much less common in bball vs football. This is has been touched upon before on this board, but I've never really seen a good answer (maybe I missed it...).

I am not an avid follower of football recruiting. But would it not have something to do with the much larger pool of players in football versus basketball?

"Poaching" a single football recruit in a class of 20 or more may very well hurt in some instances. But it is much more palatable than in basketball given incoming recruiting classes are generally 2-4 kids. I am guessing that this would be one of the main reasons it's more frowned upon in basketball. But just my .02

[jimsumner]

"I totally disagree, Jim.

Schools and coaches contact committed recruits all the time. Lipford never de-committed before he was stolen by UNC. We just lost a prized tight end in the current class who was poached. Roof lost a WR to Notre Dame a few years ago. Montel Harris, the great BC running back, was originally a Duke commitment.

I repeat, it happens all the time in football. There's nothing immoral or illegal about it.

I would hope that Coach Cut would know which UNC commits might actually be disturbed by the idea that the UNC program's academic reputation has been compromised and would at least inquire to see if they would be open to moving on."

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. I never said it was immoral. Never said it was illegal. Never said no one ever did it. Never said Duke didn't do it. Never said Duke shouldn't do it.

What, I did say was that Sean Renfree bailed from GT before Cut contacted him on behalf of Duke. In fact, if I recall the timeline correctly, Renfree de-committed before Cut even took the Duke job. Am I misremembering?

Duke has a precious few scholarships left in the class of 2011 and offers out that they hope will fill those scholarships. Given that scarcity of scholarships and the uncertainty of any sanctions against UNC, I would be surprised if Cutcliffe and his staff intend to initiate contact with UNC commits.

[gvtucker]

What, I did say was that Sean Renfree bailed from GT before Cut contacted him on behalf of Duke. In fact, if I recall the timeline correctly, Renfree de-committed before Cut even took the Duke job. Am I misremembering?

You are correct, Jim. Renfree decommitted almost immediately after GT hired Paul Johnson. That was well before Cutcliffe was hired.

[Olympic Fan]

I would not expect Duke to initiate contact with any UNC commits. Should they initiate contact, I would expect Duke to evaluate on a case-by-case basis.

THIS is what I disagree with, Jim.

Respect your opinion, but I would hope and expect Coach Cut to maintain contact with the guys he was recruiting who might have committed to North Carolina -- just in case they are having second thoughts (and especically if the NCAA brings the hammer down on UNC).

I think he can and will be proactive instead of reactive.

[jimsumner]

Don't you think there's a difference between maintaining a pre-exisiting relationship
"just in case they are having second thoughts (and especically if the NCAA brings the hammer down on UNC)" and initiating a contact specifically designed to pry away a player committed to another program?

In other words, is there a difference between "If you change your mind, we'd be glad to talk" and "We think you should change your mind?"

In all candor I'm not sure I understand the meaning of the word "committed" in today's world. When I read "I'm committed to school A, but am still going to visit schools B, C, D and E," is that a committment? Should schools B, C, D and E treat it as one?

[oldnavy]

Don't you think there's a difference between maintaining a pre-exisiting relationship
"just in case they are having second thoughts (and especically if the NCAA brings the hammer down on UNC)" and initiating a contact specifically designed to pry away a player committed to another program?

In other words, is there a difference between "If you change your mind, we'd be glad to talk" and "We think you should change your mind?"

In all candor I'm not sure I understand the meaning of the word "committed" in today's world. When I read "I'm committed to school A, but am still going to visit schools B, C, D and E," is that a committment? Should schools B, C, D and E treat it as one?

Who said "a verbal agreement isn't worth the paper it is written on"?

[OldPhiKap]

Who said "a verbal agreement isn't worth the paper it is written on"?

Samuel Goldwyn.

[jimsumner]

Who said "a verbal agreement isn't worth the paper it is written on"?

I probably watched too many Gary Cooper movies as a kid.
You know, the "a man's word is his bond" kind of movies.

Today, it's more like "a man's word is his opening negotiating ploy."

[DevilWearsPrada]

Any updates on UNC Football? Last evening on sports radio, mentioned 10-15 players possibly, in addition to the players for agent violations. When does Butch Davis have to release his depth chart? Today or Thursday?

[CLT Devil]

Don't you think there's a difference between maintaining a pre-exisiting relationship
"just in case they are having second thoughts (and especically if the NCAA brings the hammer down on UNC)" and initiating a contact specifically designed to pry away a player committed to another program?

In other words, is there a difference between "If you change your mind, we'd be glad to talk" and "We think you should change your mind?"

In all candor I'm not sure I understand the meaning of the word "committed" in today's world. When I read "I'm committed to school A, but am still going to visit schools B, C, D and E," is that a committment? Should schools B, C, D and E treat it as one?

I'm sure Coach Cut knows what is proper and what is not. As crazy as NCAA rules are you can't go with what's sensable, so you never know. I think it should work like certain professional services in NC, as far as someone prying a client away from someone. If a client (in this case the player) is concerned about the level they are getting from their real estate agent the client/player has to be the one who initiates contact with a new agent. It is seen as unethical and in some cases illegal to contact someone who is already under an agreement with another service provider (in this case the 'school').

It would unwise to halt all communication with someone you have likely built a relationship/bond with during the recruiting proces, but just how much contact and what is appropriate is deemed by the NCAA. It's hard to guess on this one. On one hand you have what would be a reasonable relationship like in Law or Real Estate, but something totally different like colleges, the NCAA and signing players. We just have to trust Cut to do the right thing.

Watching the dumpster fire down the road has been an end unto itself, but if we are able to nab a couple of their recruits who are perfect fits that would be the icing on top. I don't think we should wait around on anyone or even recruit a kid who was not originally recruited unless there is a great need/fit with the current team...but why not see if there is something that comes our way? Ideally, if we could get one of their recruits from around the Durham area that would be ideal...not only do we take one from them and add to our roster, but we also make it easy for the parents and all of the player's friends/teammates to come to the games and hopefully become fans as a result.

Bottom line is do we really want a guy who has spurned us once...for our rival? I will forgive once, I guess. Cut knows what to do, but needs to be careful with all of the attention that program is under right now.

[Gewebe14]

Charlotte Observer reporting that Marvin Austin is suspended indefinitely. "Not related to the NCAA investigation." Right, I'm sure it's just a coincidence.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/09/01/1660562/marvin-austin-suspended-indefinitely.html

[Bob Green]

Charlotte Observer reporting that Marvin Austin is suspended indefinitely. "Not related to the NCAA investigation." Right, I'm sure it's just a coincidence.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/09/01/1660562/marvin-austin-suspended-indefinitely.html

It is not a coincidence, but it is not directly related to the investigation. There is a little more info here:

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/uncs-austin-suspended-indefinitely

It appears Butch Davis didn't appreciate Austin's latest tweet.

Edit: Not a tweet, but rather a Facebook posting.

[sagegrouse]

I'm sure Coach Cut knows what is proper and what is not. As crazy as NCAA rules are you can't go with what's sensable, so you never know. I think it should work like certain professional services in NC, as far as someone prying a client away from someone. If a client (in this case the player) is concerned about the level they are getting from their real estate agent the client/player has to be the one who initiates contact with a new agent. It is seen as unethical and in some cases illegal to contact someone who is already under an agreement with another service provider (in this case the 'school').





The "commitments" written about in the press and recruiting services are just "rumors" as far as the NCAA is concerned. The official commitment can only occur during the official signing periods, which occur during the senior year in HS. Moreover, the school the recruit is announcing for can't say a word publicly before the signing day.

The NCAA, I am sure, would encourage continued contact by member schools until the signing occurs. From the standpoint of the schools not selected, it would seem appropriate for the coaches to stay in some contact with the recruit. After all, scholarship information may have changed (school X is now willing to award a scholarship); there could be eligibility problems; family circumstances may have changed; and -- for heaven's sake -- a "commitment" made at age 15 may be reconsidered.

I understand that schools in the same conference tend to respect these unofficial decisions, and that basketball is better than football at avoiding what is called "poaching." But as long as the NCAA refuses to recognize these commitments, schools are fully justified in maintaining some contact with potential recruits.

sagegrouse

[A-Tex Devil]

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/141739/screen_shot_2010-09-01_at_1.00.35_pm.png

[Gewebe14]

It is not a coincidence, but it is not directly related to the investigation. There is a little more info here:

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/uncs-austin-suspended-indefinitely

It appears Butch Davis didn't appreciate Austin's latest tweet.

Edit: Not a tweet, but rather a Facebook posting.

It doesn't specifically say that he was suspended for the tweet does it? Also - cool vendiagram (sp?) above.

Edit: Mods - can you add a "like" button as they have on Facebook? So we can "like" things like that vendiagram and everyone will know it.

[OldPhiKap]

Venn has ALWAY hated UNC.

[CLT Devil]

The "commitments" written about in the press and recruiting services are just "rumors" as far as the NCAA is concerned. The official commitment can only occur during the official signing periods, which occur during the senior year in HS. Moreover, the school the recruit is announcing for can't say a word publicly before the signing day.

The NCAA, I am sure, would encourage continued contact by member schools until the signing occurs. From the standpoint of the schools not selected, it would seem appropriate for the coaches to stay in some contact with the recruit. After all, scholarship information may have changed (school X is now willing to award a scholarship); there could be eligibility problems; family circumstances may have changed; and -- for heaven's sake -- a "commitment" made at age 15 may be reconsidered.

I understand that schools in the same conference tend to respect these unofficial decisions, and that basketball is better than football at avoiding what is called "poaching." But as long as the NCAA refuses to recognize these commitments, schools are fully justified in maintaining some contact with potential recruits.

sagegrouse

I pretty much agree with everything you are stating. The one thing that I had in mind, and which is really too late now, would be if a recruit for this years' team had found out about all of this mess during the summer and penalties were handed down from the NCAA saying that UNC can't go to to Bowl game for 2-3 years (strictly hypothetical). It would be different than a coach leaving where the player, I believe, can open up their recruitment - My thoughts are if something major happens, such as multiple teammates suspended and no post-season for a few years then a player could have the right to change schools without penalty, even if they have signed, even under the NCAA's eyes. This is where the continued contact would come into play.

Like you said, Grouse, of course coaches are going to keep in touch because people do tend to change their minds or at least consider more schools after visits, seeing where friends go to play, etc. Once someone is signed during an official period they are pretty much off the table, no? I am asking in earnest, as I do not know. If they are insulated from 'poaching' at this point, it would look bad for a neighbor school to keep in contact. Well, if there was a coaching change or something else that changes the situation how does a school that did not get the player get back in touch with the recruit? If it's okay to just start calling/writing again then that settles it.

I know I am getting ahead of myself, as I am pretty sure you still are penalized for changing schools even if wins are vacated, said school is put on probation, no postseason, on and on. My question i this; Say UNC has an official (in the NCAA's eyes) committ for next year that wants out of his enrollment because the penalties to the school are so tough (I know it hasn't happened, but say it's a 2-and-done who wants to play in a bowlgame) - is it ethical or even legal for another school to call and offer, or re-offer their scholarship or does a school have to wait until the player gets in tough with them?

Not really that important, but something I have been wondering about since it looks like there could likely be some repurcussions to all of this going on at UNC. On one hand you would likely get more PT as a recruit, though no bowlgame if that's what it turns out to be. Again, no punishment has come yet so this is purely hypothetical.

[JasonEvans]

Edit: Mods - can you add a "like" button as they have on Facebook? So we can "like" things like that vendiagram and everyone will know it.

Do you see the little button at the bottom of every post that looks like a green smiley and a red frown next to each other? If you click on that it will give you the ability to "approve" or "disapprove" of a post as well as provide a comment to the poster. I recommend signing all of your comments so folks will know who said nice or mean things about them ;)

When someone gets a lot of approving comments, their "reputation" is enhanced and you will see extra little pitchforks next to their name.

--Jason "I don't think we have the ability to do like/dislike yet - but this comes very close" Evans

[DevilWearsPrada]

The diagram is excellent!

I think it is a disservice and shameful to any elite university to have student athletes that have middle school aptitude reading, and writing skills. These kids have been pushed through the system. Reading, Writing and Arithmetic are the core subjects, and very basic.

And as professional athletes, they make big salaries, greater than doctors, attorneys, professors, some ceos, but yet cannot hold a conversation with good diction; let alone write a 500 word essay. Education should not be taken for granted. I will glad when the whole investigation is resolved.

When I was in college, we had to sign the pledge to our tests, exams, and all papers. Does that apply now?

[Dukeface88]

I know I am getting ahead of myself, as I am pretty sure you still are penalized for changing schools even if wins are vacated, said school is put on probation, no postseason, on and on.


I believe this varies on a case-to-case basis. I remember that part of the USC sanctions allowed players to transfer to other schools without having to sit a year although I believe that only applied to juniors and seniors. This article (http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/10/sports/la-sp-0611-usc-qa-20100611) implies the transfer rules are based on how many years the team is banned from the postseason.




When I was in college, we had to sign the pledge to our tests, exams, and all papers. Does that apply now?

At Duke we still do for exams, at least as of last year; other stuff is covered by the general academic rules. Can't speak for our friends across town though.

[Olympic Fan]

I believe (not positive, but think I'm right) is that the NCAA allows players to transfer without sitting out when their school faces an NCAA postseason ban for the rest of their college career.

Hence, if a school gets a two-year postseason ban, then all juniors and seniors are eligible to leave without penalty -- but freshmen and sophomores would face normal ntransfer rules. One one year ban would only impact seniors -- a four-year ban would cut everybody free.

BTW: ESPN's Joe Schad just tweeted that UNC would be without 15 players (including seven defensive starters and almost all of their running backs) Saturday at Atlanta. Schad also said that DE Robert Quinn, their best player, was tied to agentgate.

[JasonEvans]

BTW: ESPN's Joe Schad just tweeted that UNC would be without 15 players (including seven defensive starters and almost all of their running backs) Saturday at Atlanta. Schad also said that DE Robert Quinn, their best player, was tied to agentgate.

Apparently Carolina is talking to the NCAA about the idea of "rolling suspensions." So, lets say UNC determines there are 15 players who should each miss 2 games. Instead of having all 15 of them sit out the same 2 games, you have 5 of them sit out games 1 & 2, 5 sit out games 3 & 4, and 5 sit out games 5 & 6. Obviously, the combinations and permutations are numerous, but you get the idea.

The question for a school is -- are we better off being a little bit worse for much of our season versus being a lot worse for just a couple games?

--Jason "this was supposed to be the best season at Carolina in many years -- ummm, maybe not" Evans

[DevilWearsPrada]

ESPN just reported that 16 UNC players would sit out for the Sat game!

STRUGGGGGLLLLEEESSSSSSS (Struggles) over in Chapel Thrill!! HE HE .... I couldn't help but giggle a little.

[moonpie23]

Apparently Carolina is talking to the NCAA about the idea of "rolling suspensions." So, lets say UNC determines there are 15 players who should each miss 2 games. Instead of having all 15 of them sit out the same 2 games, you have 5 of them sit out games 1 & 2, 5 sit out games 3 & 4, and 5 sit out games 5 & 6. Obviously, the combinations and permutations are numerous, but you get the idea.



how does the school get to negotiate or decide how, when, how much punishment is handed out by the ncaa?

and the ncaa is considering this?


http://ui32.gamespot.com/479/702headbanginstick_2.gif

[weezie]

I saw my old nemesis, guy w/VA tarhole license plates saying "DUKH8R" again the other day. First time was a few months ago traveling up Rte 28 towards Dulles airport...,yesterday was parked outside MY hometown gym! The son-of-a-gun lives in my town!:confused:

I left him a sweet little note on his windshield, "Enjoy your NCAA sanctions! :)" smiley face included.
The bum. :cool:

[CameronBornAndBred]

BTW: ESPN's Joe Schad just tweeted that UNC would be without 15 players (including seven defensive starters and almost all of their running backs) Saturday at Atlanta. Schad also said that DE Robert Quinn, their best player, was tied to agentgate.
I predict a record day for Yates in both passing yardage and in interceptions.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I predict a record day for Yates in both passing yardage and in interceptions.
I'm expecting pressure from the LSU O line to push Yates to get rid of the ball more quickly than he's used to.

[Devilsfan]

I'm expecting pressure from the LSU O line to push Yates to get rid of the ball more quickly than he's used to.

Most schools would suspend players who had papers written by another person from school not just for a game or two. I guess they have not been proven guilty yet. Go Cajuns! Rip them a ....

[devildeac]

I saw my old nemesis, guy w/VA tarhole license plates saying "DUKH8R" again the other day. First time was a few months ago traveling up Rte 28 towards Dulles airport...,yesterday was parked outside MY hometown gym! The son-of-a-gun lives in my town!:confused:

I left him a sweet little note on his windshield, "Enjoy your NCAA sanctions! :)" smiley face included.
The bum. :cool:

Priceless.

http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/24.gif

[Jarhead]

Most schools would suspend players who had papers written by another person from school not just for a game or two. I guess they have not been proven guilty yet. Go Cajuns! Rip them a ....

That's what I understand is the existing rule at UNC. Cheating and plagiarism require that the student be suspended from school for a semester. How can UNC maintain any level of integrity with the story floating about that they are negotiating a phased suspension with the NCAA. If that negotiation is successful both UNC and the NCAA would suffer a big reputation hit.

[Devilsfan]

Just read an article that stated "UNC's academic reputation takes a hit". What reputation? Some made fun of Ted Roof's FB teams' records, but I bet NO ONE on the Blue Devils team needed a nanny to write a paper for them! Go Devils!

[yancem]

At Duke we still do for exams, at least as of last year; other stuff is covered by the general academic rules. Can't speak for our friends across town though.

I always found this concept amusing. So you sign a pledge not to cheat, so what. If you don't have a problem cheating in the first place what make anyone think signing a pledge not to cheat is going to stop you form cheating. You're either honest or not and signing a pledge is only important to those who are honest who wouldn't cheat in the first place.

[Dukeface88]

I always found this concept amusing. So you sign a pledge not to cheat, so what. If you don't have a problem cheating in the first place what make anyone think signing a pledge not to cheat is going to stop you form cheating. You're either honest or not and signing a pledge is only important to those who are honest who wouldn't cheat in the first place.

I agree. I suspect there's some arcane legal reason for doing it this way.

Newest reports are that Greg Little won't be suiting up (http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/story/8234109/). In related news, Marcell Dareus, an Alabama player involved in agent gate has been suspended for two games instead of four based on "mitigating circumstances. (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hHqNfQhtrCwD5ToWlNhHaunwtnvwD9I04BS00)" What's the betting he sang like a canary?

[CameronBornAndBred]

Just read an article that stated "UNC's academic reputation takes a hit". What reputation? Some made fun of Ted Roof's FB teams' records, but I bet NO ONE on the Blue Devils team needed a nanny to write a paper for them! Go Devils!
To be fair, Zack Asack might not have needed a nanny..but he needed somebody, twice. The difference is that he was instantly booted..twice. The heels are trying like hell to keep their cheaters.

[Devilsfan]

Geaux tigers!!

[uh_no]

I always found this concept amusing. So you sign a pledge not to cheat, so what. If you don't have a problem cheating in the first place what make anyone think signing a pledge not to cheat is going to stop you form cheating. You're either honest or not and signing a pledge is only important to those who are honest who wouldn't cheat in the first place.

the reason they make you sign the pledge, and the reason they put it on every assignment (at least in pratt) is that if you ever get cited for cheating or plagiarism, you can't say "oh I didn't know" because it's been on every assignment you ever turned in.....that's why they have you sign it....not because they think that if you sign it you are guaranteed not to cheat

[devildeac]

Just read an article that stated "UNC's academic reputation takes a hit". What reputation? Some made fun of Ted Roof's FB teams' records, but I bet NO ONE on the Blue Devils team needed a nanny to write a paper for them! Go Devils!

One of them reportedly did. Twice.

Oops, CB&B beat me to it. Dang, he's got fast fingers.

[sandinmyshoes]

Reporting that six are definately ineligible, another six are out. Their starting defense has been gutted. And their two main running backs out.


http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/090310aaa.html

[Dukeface88]

UNC is down 12-15 players (http://northcarolina.scout.com/2/998552.html). 6 suspended, 6 held out for the LSU game, 3 more questionable. It's basically their defensive starters minus the linebackers, and some WRs/RBs.

Looks like Schad was pretty close.

Edit: Beat me to it

[Deslok]

the reason they make you sign the pledge, and the reason they put it on every assignment (at least in pratt) is that if you ever get cited for cheating or plagiarism, you can't say "oh I didn't know" because it's been on every assignment you ever turned in.....that's why they have you sign it....not because they think that if you sign it you are guaranteed not to cheat

Its not just that though, its also to bring it to mind reinforce the idea that it would be unacceptable behavior. In the back of their mind, students know its wrong to cheat/plagiarize/collude/etc, but if its just kind of nebulously in the back of their mind the self justification of "well, I'm just helping out a friend" chases those thoughts away. Bringing it back to the forefront of students minds makes them less likely to engage in the behavior. There have been some studies that back up this idea, though data is always a bit sketchy about something like this(kind of like surveying how many people have committed adultery, etc).

[JasonEvans]

Well, now that we know the names of the folks who will be missing the game, anyone find it kinda strange that it is all starters? Was the tutor only willing to cheat for the first team studs and not second teamers? On the other hand, this tutor must have been really busy, writing papers for a dozen students!!

-Jason "anyone know what the line on the LSU game was before this and what it is now?" Evans

[CameronBornAndBred]

-Jason "anyone know what the line on the LSU game was before this and what it is now?" Evans
I know for a while that all bets were off, literally, for a long time. They might still be until the heels release a depth chart.

[devildeac]

I predict a record day for Yates in both passing yardage and in interceptions.

QFE.

[Olympic Fan]

Actually, we don't know it all yet ... three more players remain in limbo.

I don't have any insight, but several UNC sources (including Greg Barnes) are reporting that linebackers Bruce Carter and Quan Sturdivant and safety Deuonta Williams didn't make the trip and are the three that are still in question.

They are definitely missing three DL line starters (including Quinn and Austin, two NFL lottery picks), both starting CBs and one starting safety; their best WR, their top two running backs are all out of the game. If the last three are also out, they'll be without nine of 11 defensive starters.

If that's not enough IC's Greg Barnes is reporting that Johnny White -- the third-team TB and the likely starter with Draughan and Houston out -- didn't get on the bus.

PS Last symbolic note ... as of noon, the UNC plane was still grounded at RDU airport with engine trouble.

PPS just this minute heard from a source who claims that the UNC Board of Trustees was informed last night that this will get MUCH, MUCH worse in the coming weeks and will involve more than twice as many players as have currently been mentioned. He said that basketball is not likely to be involved ... take it for what it's worth, a second-hand report. But just to let you know that there is possibly more coming.

[Acymetric]

Saw this at Devils Den...updated depth chart for unc :cool:

http://i56.tinypic.com/2qvcnkx.png

According to reports from IC and 620 3rd string RB Johnny White may need to be crossed out as well.

This is the best first week of class I think I've ever had...guess my life was saving the best for last!

[Bob Green]

Actually, we don't know it all yet ... three more players remain in limbo.

I don't have any insight, but several UNC sources (including Greg Barnes) are reporting that linebackers Bruce Carter and Quan Sturdivant and safety Deuonta Williams didn't make the trip and are the three that are still in question.



The Fayetteville Observer is reporting the three players in limbo to be Carter, Sturdivant, and Williams.

http://www.fayobserver.com/articles/2010/09/03/1027594?sac=Home

[Olympic Fan]

Has this been posted before?

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/748a0362df/hitler-is-told-about-the-unc-ncaa-investigation?rel=player

Seriously, the funniest thing I've ever seen on the Internet

Hitler: "I was going to be the second E in D-E-F-E-N-S-E"

[devildeac]

Has this been posted before?

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/748a0362df/hitler-is-told-about-the-unc-ncaa-investigation?rel=player

Seriously, the funniest thing I've ever seen on the Internet

Hitler: "I was going to be the second E in D-E-F-E-N-S-E"

I have seen something like that before but can't remember the subject. Maybe it was about unc's recent MBB season.

My college German is pretty rusty but I think the sub-titles for Hitler's rant are pretty close.:rolleyes:;)

[Dianesboy]

What do you call a student-athlete in Chapel Hill? Nonexistent

[Bob Green]

What do you call a student-athlete in Chapel Hill? Nonexistent

I realize you are just joking around, however, let's not paint with too broad a brush. The majority of the student-athletes in Chapel Hill are outstanding representatives of their university.

[wilko]

What do you call a student-athlete in Chapel Hill? Nonexistent

A: a transfer.

[OldPhiKap]

What do you call a student-athlete in Chapel Hill? Nonexistent

Not sure I'd take it that far, and it may be that the rumors and precautions are getting ahead of the facts as to this football issue. We, more than any, should know about jumping to conclusions based on the initial stages of an investigation.

If it is truly a widespread football issue, that will come out and Davis will be gone. BUT we're not at the point of knowing all of that yet. It could well be that the players are all under some sort of suspicion and therefore are being held out as a precaution.

As much fun as we all have with this story (myself included), we need to be guarded in jumping to broad accusations.

$.02

[CameronBornAndBred]

I have seen something like that before but can't remember the subject. Maybe it was about unc's recent MBB season.

My college German is pretty rusty but I think the sub-titles for Hitler's rant are pretty close.:rolleyes:;)
They used the same video when Duke beat UVA in football Cut's first year...it was hilarious. "But Duke?! We got beat by f*&$ing Duke?!!!"

[Acymetric]

They used the same video when Duke beat UVA in football Cut's first year...it was hilarious. "But Duke?! We got beat by f*&$ing Duke?!!!"

I knew there was another sports related one I had seen and loved! Thanks for reminding me about it. I can't find the video anywhere though, if anyone else has a link I would appreciate it!

[DukieInKansas]

I knew there was another sports related one I had seen and loved! Thanks for reminding me about it. I can't find the video anywhere though, if anyone else has a link I would appreciate it!

It was also done for Kansas losing to the Panthers of Northern Iowa in the NCAA tournament this past spring.

[JasonEvans]

It was also done for Kansas losing to the Panthers of Northern Iowa in the NCAA tournament this past spring.

Yup, that is a great one. You can see it here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uejv2zz6bU&NR=1).

-Jason "there are a million of these-- all are funny!" Evans

[SCMatt33]

Reporting that six are definately ineligible, another six are out. Their starting defense has been gutted. And their two main running backs out.


http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/090310aaa.html

The article also mentions 3 other players who are not yet eligible, but could be by Kickoff so the final number could be 15.

[Acymetric]

A member of the board of governors spoke out (http://obsfifty.blogspot.com/2010/09/board-of-governors-member-scandal.html) about the scandal today with the Charlotte Observer. Highlights are that the scandal is "humiliating," and that "[he doesn't] think the buck stops with the players." I'm glad to hear this, not as a Duke fan, but as someone who values higher education and integrity. I hope unc makes some big changes here.

[uh_no]

A member of the board of governors spoke out (http://obsfifty.blogspot.com/2010/09/board-of-governors-member-scandal.html) about the scandal today with the Charlotte Observer. Highlights are that the scandal is "humiliating," and that "[he doesn't] think the buck stops with the players." I'm glad to hear this, not as a Duke fan, but as someone who values higher education and integrity. I hope unc makes some big changes here.

over under til butch davis loses his job? i'll give it til after they lose tomorrow

[weezie]

Has this been posted before?

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/748a0362df/hitler-is-told-about-the-unc-ncaa-investigation?rel=player

Seriously, the funniest thing I've ever seen on the Internet

Hitler: "I was going to be the second E in D-E-F-E-N-S-E"

Oh rats! I was just about to post this. Very good.

[kong123]

that is very funny. i saw someone use the very same video to make fun of people who play the Tiger Woods video game.

[rasputin]

that is very funny. i saw someone use the very same video to make fun of people who play the Tiger Woods video game.

The same video was used to make fun of the Cubs, as well.

[Greg_Newton]

The same video was used to make fun of the Cubs, as well.

...and Usain Bolt breaking the 100m record, Susan Boyle losing BGT, Kanye West interrupting Taylor Swift, McCain picking Palin, Lebron leaving Cleveland, the real estate collapse, Blu-Ray winning the hi-def war, the vuvezuelas at the World Cup, the Cowboys losing to the Giants, getting a margin call on an investment...

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Another possible development has been leaked. http://www.wralsportsfan.com/college_football/story/8239422/

If the State's Attorney General's office does, in fact, subpoena Marvin Austin, it will be interesting to see what develops regarding the prosecution of any agent(s).

[Acymetric]

Another possible development has been leaked. http://www.wralsportsfan.com/college_football/story/8239422/

If the State's Attorney General's office does, in fact, subpoena Marvin Austin, it will be interesting to see what develops regarding the prosecution of any agent(s).

You know, with the level of embarrassment to the school in general due to all this I wouldn't be surprised at all if the state actually takes legit action on this...the implications of this are going way beyond sports.

[Merlindevildog91]

Another possible development has been leaked. http://www.wralsportsfan.com/college_football/story/8239422/

If the State's Attorney General's office does, in fact, subpoena Marvin Austin, it will be interesting to see what develops regarding the prosecution of any agent(s).

Love the Nationwide ad in this article: Are you the world's greatest Tar Hole in the world?

Must be from the Department of Redundancy Department. Or maybe a nanny wrote it....

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Another possible development has been leaked. http://www.wralsportsfan.com/college_football/story/8239422/

If the State's Attorney General's office does, in fact, subpoena Marvin Austin, it will be interesting to see what develops regarding the prosecution of any agent(s).

I need to amend this information. It's not the State Attorney General's office, but rather the Secretary of State who has the authority and responsibility to monitor sports agents and how they conduct their business.

[Bob Green]

It appears linebackers Carter and Sturdivant have been cleared to play so the final number of ineligible/withheld players is 13:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5527407

[CameronBornAndBred]

It appears linebackers Carter and Sturdivant have been cleared to play so the final number of ineligible/withheld players is 13:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5527407
I wonder why there was such a grey area that they didn't meet up with the team until a later flight. I know they are being methodical and all, but seriously..they either cheated or they didn't, so what were they looking at that made them cough up bucks to take a later plane? How much does it cost (ultimately tax payers since it's a public university) to send these two out? I have no problem with them being cleared..it's almost a relief..but the scenario raises as more questions than it answers..which was will they play.

[CameronBornAndBred]

"As I've said, there is no single game more important than the character and integrity of this university," Davis said in the release. "We are disappointed the players' choices have denied them the opportunity to compete alongside their teammates and represent the University of North Carolina."

That one quote trumps Ol' Roy's tossing the basketball player's under the bus. At least Roy took a lot of blame for last season, pointing out many enjoyable times his crappy coaching jobs. Butch, however, shoulders no blame whatsoever, placing everything that has befallen the program squarely on the shoulders of his players. If he is riding on the same bus Roy's team used, there are uniforms from both sports spinning around those axles.

[Bob Green]

I wonder why there was such a grey area that they didn't meet up with the team until a later flight. I know they are being methodical and all, but seriously..they either cheated or they didn't, so what were they looking at that made them cough up bucks to take a later plane? How much does it cost (ultimately tax payers since it's a public university) to send these two out? I have no problem with them being cleared..it's almost a relief..but the scenario raises as more questions than it answers..which was will they play.

Well we don't know all the facts, however, there are two ongoing investigations so perhaps, and I emphasize perhaps because as I said we have no idea about the facts, Sturdivant and Carter's academic integrity were never in doubt and they were cleared of any inappropriate dealings with sports agents.

[striker219]

Has anyone been compiling a list of why 2010 is awesome? Because really, this is getting out of hand.

[weezie]

Has anyone been compiling a list of why 2010 is awesome? Because really, this is getting out of hand.

I've been pinching myself to make sure it's not just a dream!

[moonpie23]

the curse of HWNSNBM continues.......


http://ui32.gamespot.com/479/702headbanginstick_2.gif

[Olympic Fan]

I wonder why there was such a grey area that they didn't meet up with the team until a later flight. I know they are being methodical and all, but seriously..they either cheated or they didn't, so what were they looking at that made them cough up bucks to take a later plane? How much does it cost (ultimately tax payers since it's a public university) to send these two out? I have no problem with them being cleared..it's almost a relief..but the scenario raises as more questions than it answers..which was will they play.

I think it has to do with the fact that the university cannot pay for an ineligible player to travel to any away game. You just have to appreciate that UNC and the NCAA have A LOT to check and it takes time.

So as long as there is a chance that these two are ineligible -- and obviously there was that chance when the team left Friday morning -- they couldn't travel with the team. Once cleared, the university could fly them down.

And while ultimately UNC is a public university and hence supported by the taxpayers, the athletic program is largely self-supporting (I know there is taxpayer input on things like upkeep of the Dean Dome), but like Duke and everywhere else, the athletics are largely paid for by donors, their share of the ACC's TV/bowl/NCAA revenue, ticket sales and student fees.

Don't knopw the exact details of UNC's finances, but most university athletic programs operate with a deficit that is made up by the university's general fund. BUT the football and basketball programs are usually profitable -- it's the dozens of non-revenue sports (both male and female) that operate deep in red ink.

[SCMatt33]

Well we don't know all the facts, however, there are two ongoing investigations so perhaps, and I emphasize perhaps because as I said we have no idea about the facts, Sturdivant and Carter's academic integrity were never in doubt and they were cleared of any inappropriate dealings with sports agents.

That was my thoughts on the matter, too. With multiple investigations going on, It's tough to tell who stands where. All that we officially know is that the first 6 players have already been caught for sure as they are "ineligible" and the other 7 are still being investigated, and UNC doesn't want them declared "retroactively ineligible" causing vacated results.

One area where I believed what the UNC brass had to say in that press conference was in relation to this topic. They basically said that you shouldn't try and guess who's involved in which investigation based on circumstance. I think the possible gray areas of agent dealings are well documented, but even with the academic stuff, it's not always clear cut. If someone told an investigator that he thought Sturdivant or Carter had a paper written for them, and they denied it, the investigators would have to go back over all of their previous workl to make a determination. It's possible that they could have been close to the end of that process and focused on those guys since there was a chance to get them cleared in time.

I do have to say that I feel good for Carter and Sturdivant in that they won't have to miss playing time because they got dragged into an investigation of their teammates. It would suck if one of the seven guys in limbo turns out to have done nothing wrong, but will still get punished.

[Devilsfan]

The heels athletic department will probably just get a wrist slap and community service. Although there was a penalty once inforced on a Texas football team, called SMU, I believe. Maybe history needs to repeat itself because this state institution, backed by hard working tax payers' money, exhibited no regard for the rules and their athletic departments' moto seems to be "Winning justifies Everything".

[4decadedukie]

The heels athletic department will probably just get a wrist slap and community service.

We shall see. I would like to believe that the NCAA's new leadership has a more-stringent views of violations -- and especially of institutional non-compliance -- based on the recent the sanctions recently imposed on USC.

[30scheyer]

Check out the creative fans at College Game Day in the ATL:

Put me in Coach

Tarheels: the FEW the proud

Free tutoring

Chapel Thrill

Butch Knows My Tutor

[sandinmyshoes]

I apologize for stepping outside of fandom and looking at this as an adult, but...

There's just a lot we don't know. I have heard that the atheletic programs at UNC do not choose tutors, that they are assigned to them. I wonder if it is by the overall atheletics department or by the academic side of the school?

I actually feel sorry for some of the players who may be forced to sit despite being "not guilty" of the suspected issues. Two of them have been cleared at the last minute, but a third will have to sit although, as I understand it, UNC feels he is in the clear but the NCAA requested a bit more paperwork.

It appears to me that UNC is doing the right thing for the sake of appropriateness, but it looks like both they and the NCAA have their system set up where a player must be considered guilty until proven innocent.

If agents were involved in the initial issues, then I hope this state investigation leads to proceeding against them. That would be the best thing for every college program in the state of North Carolina, some sort of hard and firm warning to all other meddling agents out there.

I'm a Duke fan, and during the season I give and take with rival fans with the best of them. But I'm also a citizen of this state, and know for a fact because of my many relatives and friens that UNC is a fine school, with an athletic department about as clean as any, including our own. I hate that it looks as if a few innocent players are being penalized for the sake of what looks proper, but it's probably best in the long run. Life isn't always fair. I just hope the agents and players who didn't do things the right way get taught a lesson that sends a message across the board.

[arnie]

I apologize for stepping outside of fandom and looking at this as an adult, but...

There's just a lot we don't know. I have heard that the atheletic programs at UNC do not choose tutors, that they are assigned to them. I wonder if it is by the overall atheletics department or by the academic side of the school?

I actually feel sorry for some of the players who may be forced to sit despite being "not guilty" of the suspected issues. Two of them have been cleared at the last minute, but a third will have to sit although, as I understand it, UNC feels he is in the clear but the NCAA requested a bit more paperwork.

It appears to me that UNC is doing the right thing for the sake of appropriateness, but it looks like both they and the NCAA have their system set up where a player must be considered guilty until proven innocent.

If agents were involved in the initial issues, then I hope this state investigation leads to proceeding against them. That would be the best thing for every college program in the state of North Carolina, some sort of hard and firm warning to all other meddling agents out there.

I'm a Duke fan, and during the season I give and take with rival fans with the best of them. But I'm also a citizen of this state, and know for a fact because of my many relatives and friens that UNC is a fine school, with an athletic department about as clean as any, including our own. I hate that it looks as if a few innocent players are being penalized for the sake of what looks proper, but it's probably best in the long run. Life isn't always fair. I just hope the agents and players who didn't do things the right way get taught a lesson that sends a message across the board.

I think the underlying problem with UNC football starts with admitting so many academic exceptions to the program. Many of the recruits have been poorly equipped to compete in the classroom and probably needed signficant help from the tutor(s) to pass courses. These guys probably skated in high school, treated as exempt celebrities and then the shock hit when they went to class. If Carolina want to keep their "flagship" status, they may want to rethink the role of academic exceptions in sports.

[SCMatt33]

We shall see. I would like to believe that the NCAA's new leadership has a more-stringent views of violations -- and especially of institutional non-compliance -- based on the recent the sanctions recently imposed on USC.

If "institutional non-compliance" is a reference to "lack of institutional control," a la USC, Carolina isn't even close to getting that. Even in UConn's case, where there was a direct tie between the school and the agent in question, which doesn't exist for Carolina, that was never brought up. USC got hit as hard as it did because they fell under the repeat violator clause, which UNC does not, and the violations occurred across several sports. The players who were involved will be hit the hardest. With the subpoena, it seems like the state may actually be interested in punishing the agents. As for the school, they will only be punished for things that they had direct ties to. It's a given that they have ties to the academic stuff via this tutor, but there is still a big difference between her being employed by the athletic department when the cheating occured.

For the agent investigation, I would find it unlikely that the school receives any substantial penalties unless either a) the players played for UNC after the violations occured, or b) the university facilitated and/or condoned the contact. Given what the alleged circumstances are, I don't think that either is the case. Remember, USC didn't get punished, besides vacated records, because Mayo and Bush took money and benefits, but because the school was directly involved in them doing so.

For the academic investigation, I looked at the Florida State case. FSU committed similar academic violations, but there were more staff members involved, more athletes involved (61), a longer period of time, and 10 different sports. As penalties they received vacation of all wins in which the athletes participated, 4-years probation, and lost some scholarships in the sports involved (football lost 6 total scholarships over 3 years).

All in all, I think that at worst, UNC will get a few years probation and maybe lose a few scholarships, but I wouldn't expect anything on the order of postseason bans, major scholarship losses, or a show cause penalty for coaches, especially not Davis.

[BD80]

If "institutional non-compliance" is a reference to "lack of institutional control," a la USC, Carolina isn't even close to getting that. Even in UConn's case, where there was a direct tie between the school and the agent in question, which doesn't exist for Carolina, that was never brought up. ...

Actually, lack of institutional control HAS been brought up in the uCon investigation,

AND

There IS a direct tie between the agent and unc's defensive coordinator.

This won't end well for unc.

[SCMatt33]

Actually, lack of institutional control HAS been brought up in the uCon investigation,

AND

There IS a direct tie between the agent and unc's defensive coordinator.

This won't end well for unc.

The exact wording is very important. UConn has been charged with "failure to monitor," which is a much lesser charge than "lack of institutional control." Also, what is the tie between the coordinator and the agent, I don't remember that, but there's been a lot to miss.

[Devilsfan]

UNC "Home of the Academic Exceptions"

[77devil]

Has this been posted before?

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/748a0362df/hitler-is-told-about-the-unc-ncaa-investigation?rel=player

Seriously, the funniest thing I've ever seen on the Internet

Hitler: "I was going to be the second E in D-E-F-E-N-S-E"

Well not as funny as the video, but was given this cartoon while in Greensboro on Thursday. Lot's of ribbing with my UNC cousins.

Back in Philly and missing Stamey's already. Ymm que.

[4decadedukie]

If "institutional non-compliance" is a reference to "lack of institutional control," a la USC, Carolina isn't even close to getting that.

You will note that the term I used was in quotations, was not capitalized as would be a specific offense, and is not the term formally employed by the NCAA, precisely because I wanted to suggest that UNC-CH may -- not yet documented -- have (presumably inadvertently) allowed an environment to develop that failed to preclude ethical breaches. If true, that could be a violation of NCAA policies.

[JasonEvans]

Wow, after hanging tough for a quarter or so (despite some nasty mistakes by the offense), Carolina looks like they are playing nothing but second stringers. They are getting housed by LSU. Currently 30-10 early in the 3rd quarter.

LSU basically does whatever it wants every time it touches the ball. The kick returns have been ridiculously long. They have thrown the ball with ease on Carolina.

TJ Yates has been pressured all day. It sometimes seems like the LSU defensive line are in the backfield more than the Carolina RBs. The bad thing for UNC is that they are not missing offensive linemen, but their line has been manhandled. That is a problem.

--Jason "LSU is averaging 7.4 yards per play... that's a big number!" Evans