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MisterRoddy
07-06-2010, 11:36 PM
Thought that we should have a poll on this.

Tune in to ESPN at 9pm eastern on Thursday night to find out where he goes.

Truth
07-06-2010, 11:39 PM
Err... you forgot the poll! :)

MisterRoddy
07-06-2010, 11:40 PM
Err... you forgot the poll! :)

Sorry, first time posting a poll, but I was still working on it when this thread went public.

DukieBoy
07-07-2010, 12:00 AM
i have a sneaky suspicion that, once LeBron signs with whoever Thursday, everyone will immediately make their decisions. Everything hinges on where Bron goes.

And watch out for the Knicks getting Bron. Chris Broussard says that Wade and Bosh are going somewhere together. To me, that means either Bron goes to NY with Amare or to Miami with Bosh/Wade

SmartDevil
07-07-2010, 12:02 AM
I'd rather see this and NBA topics unrelated to Duke relegated to the "Off Topic" board.

MisterRoddy
07-07-2010, 12:05 AM
i have a sneaky suspicion that, once LeBron signs with whoever Thursday, everyone will immediately make their decisions. Everything hinges on where Bron goes.

And watch out for the Knicks getting Bron. Chris Broussard says that Wade and Bosh are going somewhere together. To me, that means either Bron goes to NY with Amare or to Miami with Bosh/Wade

I believe your suspicion is correct. Its being somewhat reported (more like a very substantial rumor) that Wednesday night, Wade, Bosh, and James will engage in a conference call to finalize their decisions in preparation for a Thursday announcement for all 3. Obviously, we know where and when James will make his decision public. It remains to be seen where the time and place will be for Bosh and Wade. I would be very surprised if the likes of Boozer, Lee, Felton, Miller, etc. haven't also announced by the end of this weekend.

OZZIE4DUKE
07-07-2010, 12:23 AM
Tune in to ESPN at 9pm eastern on Thursday night to find out where he goes.
Will he Skype his announcement? :eek:

Orange&BlackSheep
07-07-2010, 12:36 AM
If BronBron ends up on the Knicks, then it is clear it is not about winning for him ...

WiJoe
07-07-2010, 12:40 AM
Will he Skype his announcement? :eek:

Good one, Oz.

Unless the "show" is in Bristol, where it takes place is where he's going(?)

muzikfrk75
07-07-2010, 12:50 AM
Good one, Oz.

Unless the "show" is in Bristol, where it takes place is where he's going(?)

Windhorst:
The location of LeBron's announcement is not expected to be in one of the cities he's considering. Will keep the guessing going.

http://twitter.com/pdcavsinsider


This is completely ridiculous....and I'll be watching with a bag of popcorn. lol

MisterRoddy
07-07-2010, 12:56 AM
If BronBron ends up on the Knicks, then it is clear it is not about winning for him ...

Well, if you look at some of the players on the Knick roster, they would be a legitimate Top 4 team in the East.

They have Danillo Gallinari who averages a nice 15 and 5 while shooting near 40% from behind the arc. He reminds me of a young Nowitzki (OK at least a poor mans Nowitzki)
The Knicks also have up and coming small forward Wilson Chandler who averages 15.3 and 5.4 rpg. Chandler has been compared to a Rudy Gay but doesn't get as much fanfare because he didn't come into the league with as much hype as Gay.
They also have Al Harrington, sharpshooter Eddie House, and promising young guard (you guys might know him) Toney Douglas...yes the same guard that torched the ACC a few years ago. He seems like a player that can have a JJ Redick-like (on the Magic) impact on an NBA team.

You add Lebron and Amare (and possibly, a free agent point guard) into the mix and the Knicks have a fair shot to contend in the East.

muzikfrk75
07-07-2010, 01:11 AM
Well, if you look at some of the players on the Knick roster, they would be a legitimate Top 4 team in the East.

They have Danillo Gallinari who averages a nice 15 and 5 while shooting near 40% from behind the arc. He reminds me of a young Nowitzki (OK at least a poor mans Nowitzki)
The Knicks also have up and coming small forward Wilson Chandler who averages 15.3 and 5.4 rpg. Chandler has been compared to a Rudy Gay but doesn't get as much fanfare because he didn't come into the league with as much hype as Gay.
They also have Al Harrington, sharpshooter Eddie House, and promising young guard (you guys might know him) Toney Douglas...yes the same guard that torched the ACC a few years ago. He seems like a player that can have a JJ Redick-like (on the Magic) impact on an NBA team.

You add Lebron and Amare (and possibly, a free agent point guard) into the mix and the Knicks have a fair shot to contend in the East.

Plus Carmelo is a FA after next season...NY and NJ will definitely go after him, unless he signs an extension with Denver...

Indoor66
07-07-2010, 08:21 AM
I couldn't vote in the pole because there was no "Who cares" option.

ScreechTDX1847
07-07-2010, 08:55 AM
Cleveland. ESPN reports he has been trying to get Bosh there for weeks. I would rather live in Miami as a millionaire sports star too.:D

sagegrouse
07-07-2010, 09:32 AM
Plus Carmelo is a FA after next season...NY and NJ will definitely go after him, unless he signs an extension with Denver...

Denver Post (http://www.denverpost.com/nuggets/ci_15445709)reported Tuesday that Melo is expected to accept a three-year extension with the Nuggets.

sagegrouse

aro24
07-07-2010, 10:18 AM
I couldn't vote in the pole because there was no "Who cares" option.

THANK YOU !
Someone beat me to this comment.
Honestly...I care about this about as much as I care about whether Bret Favre will come back again, or if Tiger will get a divorce or whatever other trivial crap ESPN is trying to shove down my throat. :mad:

ARo24

Big Pappa
07-07-2010, 10:35 AM
I would love to see Booz and Bron in NJ.

muzikfrk75
07-07-2010, 10:48 AM
I would love to see Booz and Bron in NJ.

That would be a pretty nice lineup there, with the little general coaching and a motivated competitive Russian billionaire running the show...plus his BFF Jay-Z :p

theAlaskanBear
07-07-2010, 10:49 AM
I would love to see Booz and Bron in NJ.

Big Pappa, I love the way you think. I just can't see LBJ and Bosh and Wade all on the same team...I think that it is Cleveland or the NJNets. I know there is little buzz around them at the moment, but they had a very solid meeting...and they are playing their cards close to the vest. I think Prokhorov "gets it" about making NBA global the way soccer is.

The question is if New Jersey can really move to Brooklyn. If they can, then there is no more appealing franchise. Avery Johnson and Sam Mitchell as head/assistant coaches, potentially Joe Dumars running the GM side...that sir, is how you build and organization.

toooskies
07-07-2010, 10:52 AM
I would love to see the people who don't care about questions to not click on links to threads explicitly discussing the issue :)

Where LeBron goes matters a lot more to sports than Favre or Tiger. It's more than an above-average QB or a personal issue. Whichever team he chooses instantly becomes a title contender; the teams he doesn't choose suddenly become also-rans. It matters a ton to Cleveland as the Cavs are their only reasonably good sports team right now, which has the longest title drought of any city with all three major professional sports (football, baseball, basketball). They also don't have collegiate athletics to attach themselves to, as Columbus is more or less a separate entity to them. So you have the full attention of a medium-sized market, and all the major markets have structured their teams to be able to put a hat in the ring for this contest.

This is an actual relevant sports story to a very large number of people, and not just because a good player could land in any of three media markets. What he does will define the NBA landscape for the next three years at a minimum (along with Wade and Bosh going to Miami). You have to not care about the NBA at all to not care where he goes. At a minimum, it could be the difference to the teams which Scheyer/Zoubek might play on, and decides who has the money to offer Redick a contract.

should_be_working
07-07-2010, 10:55 AM
Count me in the "who cares" vote. I'm so tired of hearing about where Labron will go. There are so many other things to talk about besides where his mother's brother's son's old high school buddy's best friend thinks he'll go. :rolleyes:

MisterRoddy
07-07-2010, 11:00 AM
Count me in the "who cares" vote. I'm so tired of hearing about where Labron will go. There are so many other things to talk about besides where his mother's brother's son's old high school buddy's best friend thinks he'll go. :rolleyes:

Why are you even on this forum, shouldn't you be working?

muzikfrk75
07-07-2010, 11:02 AM
Why are you even on this forum, shouldn't you be working?

Exactly. If Lebron went to Duke, there would less people on here saying 'who cares'. I'm just saying.

Indoor66
07-07-2010, 11:39 AM
Exactly. If Lebron went to Duke, there would less people on here saying 'who cares'. I'm just saying.

If Bron Bron went to Duke I would care. Just sayin' (whatever that means or signifies!)

should_be_working
07-07-2010, 11:42 AM
Why are you even on this forum, shouldn't you be working?

always ;)

Billy Dat
07-07-2010, 12:37 PM
The Miami opportunity hangs on whether or not they can get a taker for Beasley so that all 3 (Bosh, Bron, Wade) can get max deals. If that happens, and they all get maxes, they will have, literally, peanuts left to fill out the rest of the roster....not just a bunch of players... they need 8-9 players outside of the "Big 3" and Mario Chalmers. If they don't clear Beasley out, will all 3 take less then the max? Bosh is already leaving $30MM on the table in Toronto if they don't do a sign and trade. Wade will make the most of all of them - which is interesting in and of itself as Lebron would be second money banana - which many would say doesn't matter but it always matters.

If he goes back to Cleveland, they've got little cap flexibility the next few years, plus they have no GM. Chicago has a great immediate core but trying to keep Noah and Rose over the next few years will eat up their remaining cap space. Jersey is interesting, but does he really want to wait a few years for the Brooklyn thing to kick in - they have no GM - he'll have to play in Newark for 2 years. Of course, I think whomever he signs with will have a great shot at getting Kevin Pritchard to sign on as GM.

Once Lebron casts his line, everything else will fall into place really quickly.

PADukeMom
07-07-2010, 01:00 PM
I couldn't vote in the pole because there was no "Who cares" option.

I'm with you on this!

jdj4duke
07-07-2010, 01:27 PM
Is Duke recruiting this guy? Probably a none and done type at best.

cspan37421
07-07-2010, 02:08 PM
With his upstaging of the NBA Finals with various leaks, and now this prime-time special, add to his quitting on his team, I really don't care for this guy, he seems rather full of himself. And it's too bad - he's an extremely talented ALL-AROUND player, by no means a ball hog - he does it all, shoot, drive, rebound, assist. But for a guy who has won zero titles, he seems to have a higher opinion of himself than even lofty reality would justify.

MisterRoddy
07-07-2010, 02:18 PM
With his upstaging of the NBA Finals with various leaks, and now this prime-time special, add to his quitting on his team, I really don't care for this guy, he seems rather full of himself. And it's too bad - he's an extremely talented ALL-AROUND player, by no means a ball hog - he does it all, shoot, drive, rebound, assist. But for a guy who has won zero titles, he seems to have a higher opinion of himself than even lofty reality would justify.

I really hate when one judges someone without knowing them, or the circumstances at all. He didn't say one thing during the Finals, that was all ESPN and people obsessed with wanting to know where he would go. Also, who's to say ESPN didn't approach him with the offer? Or that his people organized this? And I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where Lebron walked off the court poclaiming, "I quit."

I'm not saying I know that he isn't full of himself because I'm in no position to judge him that way, but neither are you and I resent comments that insult a persons character when that person is in no position to judge him in that sense.

rhcpflea99
07-07-2010, 02:29 PM
I think he stays in Cleveland. No way does he embarrass Cleveland on ESPN like that. If he leaves that fine, but to slap the Cavs on the way out. I know the money he is going make off the commercial during his special announcement is getting donates to some charity(s).

cspan37421
07-07-2010, 04:35 PM
Mr. Roddy, you're right, I'm relying on what is being reported and perhaps it's not true. None of us can know for sure what is being done by him, and what is merely being done "in his name" by his entourage/agent etc. But it seems to me that if it's the latter, he could put a stop to it.

MisterRoddy
07-07-2010, 04:50 PM
Mr. Roddy, you're right, I'm relying on what is being reported and perhaps it's not true. None of us can know for sure what is being done by him, and what is merely being done "in his name" by his entourage/agent etc. But it seems to me that if it's the latter, he could put a stop to it.

It's true that he could put a stop to him announcing on ESPN but I mean, c'mon, the proceeds are going to charity.

left_hook_lacey
07-07-2010, 05:05 PM
I couldn't vote in the pole because there was no "Who cares" option.

Agreed. I would like to see a selection titled "who cares already?!"

MisterRoddy
07-07-2010, 05:08 PM
Agreed. I would like to see a selection titled "who cares already?!"

This is getting kind of annoying. How about requesting an, "I don't care," choice. Saying "who cares" is, quite frankly, misinformed. There have been 80 votes in this thread in less than a day and it's the only thing ESPN and Twitter can talk about. Obviously, people care.

muzikfrk75
07-07-2010, 05:50 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5360533

Details about tomorrow night's 'Lebrottery'...apparently he's going to announce within the first 10 minutes of the show.

cspan37421
07-07-2010, 06:13 PM
It's true that he could put a stop to him announcing on ESPN but I mean, c'mon, the proceeds are going to charity.

Well, that's nice, but color my cynical: I would not be surprised if that was decided after some backlash from the original announcement; it's a classic way to deflect criticism. I heard about the special before the claims about donations to charity ... so it would not surprise me if the ideas came in that order.

Also, according to Gene Wojnarowski of Yahoo Sports (interviewed on NPR just moments ago), the ESPN special was James' idea, and they bit, not the other way around. If true, I find that pretty egotistical. Note that I'm not saying he's a fool, though - he's maximizing his brand value, right? People will watch, money will change hands, right?

But that's not a style I admire, and I have a right to my own opinion about him. I'm sure he won't lose sleep; I'm not in his target demographic.

MisterRoddy
07-07-2010, 06:21 PM
Well, that's nice, but color my cynical: I would not be surprised if that was decided after some backlash from the original announcement; it's a classic way to deflect criticism. I heard about the special before the claims about donations to charity ... so it would not surprise me if the ideas came in that order.

Also, according to Gene Wojnarowski of Yahoo Sports (interviewed on NPR just moments ago), the ESPN special was James' idea, and they bit, not the other way around. If true, I find that pretty egotistical. Note that I'm not saying he's a fool, though - he's maximizing his brand value, right? People will watch, money will change hands, right?

But that's not a style I admire, and I have a right to my own opinion about him. I'm sure he won't lose sleep; I'm not in his target demographic.

Well, when he says it's Lebrons idea I wouldn't be surprised if he meant, "Lebron's Camp."

You definitely are entitled to your own opinion, but if you are going to post it, at least provide concrete evidence supporting your claim that he is egotistical, not unclear situations that you, nor anyone else on this board know anything about.

Please don't take this as me being mean, as I like to keep my posts positive, but I just don't like people being unfairly judged.

cspan37421
07-07-2010, 06:35 PM
You definitely are entitled to your own opinion, but if you are going to post it, at least provide concrete evidence supporting your claim that he is egotistical,

I think I just did; and while I don't think it's unfair to base an opinion on something either on what they say themselves OR what others authorized to speak for them say, I'm going to let this one rest - digging up the various news releases and LBJ leaks/trial balloons from the NBA Finals is too time consuming, and you may not accept that as evidence since it was sourced to his "camp" and not LBJ himself. So we'd get nowhere.

I applaud you though for insisting that opinions be informed by / based on evidence. The world could use more of that.

weezie
07-07-2010, 06:49 PM
...apparently he's going to announce within the first 10 minutes of the show.


Yay! Then what, 50 min of Stuart Scott gasbagging about himself?
Or maybe LBJ can reenact that dancing car insurance commercial again, that was funnn-eee!

jimrowe0
07-07-2010, 07:02 PM
Jay will tweeted that he heard Lebron will end up with the Knicks.

sagegrouse
07-07-2010, 07:07 PM
Well, that's nice, but color my cynical: ....

Also, according to Gene Wojnarowski of Yahoo Sports (interviewed on NPR just moments ago), the ESPN special was James' idea, and they bit, not the other way around. If true, I find that pretty egotistical.



I have several thoughts on this subject, and I don't have a problem with the TV show:

1. As the best or nearly the best basketball player in the world, he didn't get that way by being a shrinking violet or by believing others were as good or better. Is this healthy for his psyche? Sure is, if the goal is to be the best basketball player in the world. And compared with the Michael Jordan in-your-face HOF ceremony debacle, this could be very mild.

2. Truth is, everything going on in pro hoops right now is a sideshow to his main event. So, IMHO (where the H is usually silent) this meets the definition of news.

3. Team LeBron is very strong. He's a corporate guy and consults his advisors. I expect this decision was a consensus, or maybe even his people talked him into it.

4. What I don't like is the parallel to Harrison Barnes fiasco. Makes my skin crawl.

sagegrouse

theAlaskanBear
07-07-2010, 07:18 PM
I have several thoughts on this subject, and I don't have a problem with the TV show:

1. As the best or nearly the best basketball player in the world, he didn't get that way by being a shrinking violet or by believing others were as good or better. Is this healthy for his psyche? Sure is, if the goal is to be the best basketball player in the world. And compared with the Michael Jordan in-your-face HOF ceremony debacle, this could be very mild.

2. Truth is, everything going on in pro hoops right now is a sideshow to his main event. So, IMHO (where the H is usually silent) this meets the definition of news.

3. Team LeBron is very strong. He's a corporate guy and consults his advisors. I expect this decision was a consensus, or maybe even his people talked him into it.

4. What I don't like is the parallel to Harrison Barnes fiasco. Makes my skin crawl.

sagegrouse

I'm not certain, but I am pretty sure LBJ is using this event to fundraise for his charities...I think proceeds from sponsors and adds or something like that.

pamtar
07-07-2010, 07:35 PM
Here's a pretty good take on Bronbron's dramatics.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-lebrondecision070710

darkblue2769
07-07-2010, 08:07 PM
I'm not certain, but I am pretty sure LBJ is using this event to fundraise for his charities...I think proceeds from sponsors and adds or something like that.

I read this 3 times before I figured out that LBJ didn't mean Lyndon B. Johnson. No more History Channel for me.

NYC Duke Fan
07-07-2010, 08:33 PM
I have several thoughts on this subject, and I don't have a problem with the TV show:

1. As the best or nearly the best basketball player in the world, he didn't get that way by being a shrinking violet or by believing others were as good or better. Is this healthy for his psyche? Sure is, if the goal is to be the best basketball player in the world. And compared with the Michael Jordan in-your-face HOF ceremony debacle, this could be very mild.

2. Truth is, everything going on in pro hoops right now is a sideshow to his main event. So, IMHO (where the H is usually silent) this meets the definition of news.

3. Team LeBron is very strong. He's a corporate guy and consults his advisors. I expect this decision was a consensus, or maybe even his people talked him into it.

4. What I don't like is the parallel to Harrison Barnes fiasco. Makes my skin crawl.

sagegrouse

The difference from what I understand, is that there will be a substantial amount of money going to charity as a result of the telecast.

muzikfrk75
07-07-2010, 09:39 PM
Here's a pretty good take on Bronbron's dramatics.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-lebrondecision070710

I must say, his recent behavior screams 'New York'....new website, Twitter, ESPN show...

MisterRoddy
07-07-2010, 10:28 PM
Ric Bucher is reporting that Lebron flew to Miami tonight for a meeting with Pat Riley.

Honestly, I don't want LBJ, but I wont complain if he comes :)

theAlaskanBear
07-07-2010, 10:37 PM
Ric Bucher is reporting that Lebron flew to Miami tonight for a meeting with Pat Riley.

Honestly, I don't want LBJ, but I wont complain if he comes :)

IF james goes to miami...I will become the anti-james.

muzikfrk75
07-07-2010, 10:43 PM
IF james goes to miami...I will become the anti-james.

Why exactly?

beach rev
07-07-2010, 10:56 PM
Would appreciate some positive thoughts from my compatriots on the board. I was born and raised in Cleveland. I've endured The Fumble, The Drive, The Rocky Colavito Curse, An Extra-Inning Loss in Game Seven of the World Series, Jordan's shot over Craig Ehlo and Art Modell's Move of the Browns (and that is far from an exhaustive list). With an understanding nod to my friends who are Cubs fans, I am a native of a city that desperately needs a dose of some decent sporting news...and my gut says Lebron is gone. At times like these, I am deeply grateful for my Blue Devils.

MisterRoddy
07-07-2010, 11:04 PM
Would appreciate some positive thoughts from my compatriots on the board. I was born and raised in Cleveland. I've endured The Fumble, The Drive, The Rocky Colavito Curse, An Extra-Inning Loss in Game Seven of the World Series, Jordan's shot over Craig Ehlo and Art Modell's Move of the Browns (and that is far from an exhaustive list). With an understanding nod to my friends who are Cubs fans, I am a native of a city that desperately needs a dose of some decent sporting news...and my gut says Lebron is gone. At times like these, I am deeply grateful for my Blue Devils.

When you are in need of some good news, you can always look back to the Dukies who will look to be very strong competitors, if not, favorites for a National Championship this upcoming year.

Here are 2 of the newest reasons to get excited about Duke basketball!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxZrFy6Uw3I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L3CXon8Ve0

Back on topic, I still think Cleveland has a very strong chance at landing Lebron.

theAlaskanBear
07-07-2010, 11:11 PM
Why exactly?

Well I hate Pat Riley, dislike the Heat (though Haslem is ok in my book) and I am not a fan of Dwayne Wade.

But also it's LeBron taking the easy way out, and it smacks of uncompetitive collusion. Like all the cool athletic kids getting together on the playground to dominate the competition.

But mostly I hate Pat Riley and the Heat.

CameronBornAndBred
07-07-2010, 11:14 PM
I really don't care where he goes, but here's my opinion on why Miami (or some other city) will be very happy tomorrow.
He's going to announce his decision within the first ten minutes of the broadcast. This is so he can spend the next 50 minutes asking Cleveland for forgiveness.

toooskies
07-07-2010, 11:26 PM
Honestly, the only way Cleveland will ever forgive Lebron for leaving is if Gilbert is already planning on moving the team to greener pastures.

MisterRoddy
07-07-2010, 11:29 PM
But also it's LeBron taking the easy way out, and it smacks of uncompetitive collusion. Like all the cool athletic kids getting together on the playground to dominate the competition.

But mostly I hate Pat Riley and the Heat.

I can't help but to think this is like a microcosm of college basketball recruiting.

- Before July 8, players and coaches can only recruit, and after that date, is when the signing period starts. (Can still get commitments before signing period though)
- Tampering = Recruiting violation
- Miami = Kentucky with the Top players teaming up for that very persuasive recruiter (Riley/Calipari)
- Duke = Chicago (The team that already has the pieces in places but always seem to come up on the short end of the Top recruits, but will end up finding theirs and do just fine.)
- Recruits/Players announcing their selections on ESPN/ESPNU (ugh)

As much as I hate to compare my favorite NBA team to that recruiting violation waiting to happen they call Kentucky, if the Heat get Lebron, the similarities are just too much.

DevilHorns
07-07-2010, 11:34 PM
Well I hate Pat Riley, dislike the Heat (though Haslem is ok in my book) and I am not a fan of Dwayne Wade.

But also it's LeBron taking the easy way out, and it smacks of uncompetitive collusion. Like all the cool athletic kids getting together on the playground to dominate the competition.

But mostly I hate Pat Riley and the Heat.

Smacks of uncompetitive collusion?

I didn't realize the Heat will be handed the trophy if he decides on Miami. I think it smacks of maturity. It shows that he wants to establish a legacy, not just MVP stardom.

And please there have been stacked teams in all of sport. At least the NBA has a salary cap and isn't like the MLB.

DevilHorns
07-07-2010, 11:37 PM
I can't help but to think this is like a microcosm of college basketball recruiting.

- Before July 8, players and coaches can only recruit, and after that date, is when the signing period starts. (Can still get commitments before signing period though)
- Tampering = Recruiting violation
- Miami = Kentucky with the Top players teaming up for that very persuasive recruiter (Riley/Calipari)
- Duke = Chicago (The team that already has the pieces in places but always seem to come up on the short end of the Top recruits, but will end up finding theirs and do just fine.)
- Recruits/Players announcing their selections on ESPN/ESPNU (ugh)

As much as I hate to compare my favorite NBA team to that recruiting violation waiting to happen they call Kentucky, if the Heat get Lebron, the similarities are just too much.

Please don't compare Kentucky to Miami and Calipari to Riley. That is an undeserved insult! (and please don't compare my beloved Duke to Chicago... all I can think of is the unhealthy arrogance of Jordan when I think of Chicago)

MisterRoddy
07-07-2010, 11:40 PM
Please don't compare Kentucky to Miami and Calipari to Riley. That is an undeserved insult! (and please don't compare my beloved Duke to Chicago... all I can think of is the unhealthy arrogance of Jordan when I think of Chicago)

The only thing I'm comparing is that Riley and Calipari are both very persuasive (coaching wise is a VERY different story).

I'm not comparing histories...I'm comparing recent situations...which you have to admit, the situations of the teams I'm comparing have been quite similar recently.

sleepybear
07-08-2010, 08:38 AM
Only 12 more hours before the King shows off his new clothes. I'm sure his "Chosen One" tattoo will be clear for us fools to see and his team of weavers will be counting their gold. :rolleyes:

Dr. Rosenrosen
07-08-2010, 08:55 AM
He must be jealous of all the kids who got to go on ESPN to make their announcements. Now all he needs is a skype feed to Miami (or wherever) and the stunt will be complete. What a self absorbed prick. I have lost all respect for him.

CDu
07-08-2010, 09:15 AM
Smacks of uncompetitive collusion?

I didn't realize the Heat will be handed the trophy if he decides on Miami. I think it smacks of maturity. It shows that he wants to establish a legacy, not just MVP stardom.

And please there have been stacked teams in all of sport. At least the NBA has a salary cap and isn't like the MLB.

Except that winning a championship in Miami on Wade's team won't do all that much for his legacy. I think people will view it as "he had to go to a 'stacked' team in order to win a title." His legacy would be more enhanced by going to a team that wasn't considered a stacked team and leading them to a championship.

For example, going to New Jersey and leading that young team to a championship would greatly enhance his legacy. Going to New York and taking the leadership role as batman to Stoudemire's robin would enhance his legacy (though by not as much). Chicago may have a better supporting cast right now than Miami (depending upon what Miami could get to fill the roster), but winning there would still probably do more for his legacy.

Basically, going to Miami would do the least for his legacy (aside from staying in Cleveland and not winning anything).

theAlaskanBear
07-08-2010, 09:30 AM
Except that winning a championship in Miami on Wade's team won't do all that much for his legacy. I think people will view it as "he had to go to a 'stacked' team in order to win a title." His legacy would be more enhanced by going to a team that wasn't considered a stacked team and leading them to a championship.

For example, going to New Jersey and leading that young team to a championship would greatly enhance his legacy. Going to New York and taking the leadership role as batman to Stoudemire's robin would enhance his legacy (though by not as much). Chicago may have a better supporting cast right now than Miami (depending upon what Miami could get to fill the roster), but winning there would still probably do more for his legacy.

Basically, going to Miami would do the least for his legacy (aside from staying in Cleveland and not winning anything).

Like you said, winning one or two titles in Cleveland or NY would do much more for him than 3-4 titles in Miami. That's Wade and Riley's team. Personally, I'll have as much respect for him if he stays in Cleveland and wins nothing as if he joins the Heat and wins titles.

Big Pappa
07-08-2010, 09:36 AM
ESPN reporting that their sources are saying Lebron is a Miami lean.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5363055

I still don't buy it. I may eat my words tonight, but the bottom line is that Lebron wants to play second fiddle to no one and Miami is Wade's town. There are things that are more important to LBJ than ships.

El_Diablo
07-08-2010, 09:38 AM
Going to New York and taking the leadership role as batman to Stoudemire's robin would enhance his legacy (though by not as much).

I think we're operating under a different definition of legacy, because LeBron would achieve immortality if he did that. NY hasn't won a title since 1973, and no one would discount that accomplishment simply because he had Stoudemire helping him.

If he does the same thing in Miami or Chicago or even NJ (because honestly, who cares about the Nets???), he will be respected. But he would become an absolute legend if he did in NY...no matter who else is on the roster.

CDu
07-08-2010, 09:45 AM
I think we're operating under a different definition of legacy, because LeBron would achieve immortality if he did that. NY hasn't won a title since 1973, and no one would discount that accomplishment simply because he had Stoudemire helping him.

If he does the same thing in Miami or Chicago or even NJ (because honestly, who cares about the Nets???), he will be respected. But he would become an absolute legend if he did in NY...no matter who else is on the roster.

That may be true. Well, in New York it would definitely be true. Outside of New York? I think winning with either New York or New Jersey would have similar impact on his legacy. Winning in Cleveland (and staying in one place) would do the most for his legacy, but I don't think he has a chance to win in Cleveland - at least for several years.

In any case, I think Miami offers the least in terms of enhancing James' legacy. Chicago comes in next in terms of offering the least.

roywhite
07-08-2010, 09:51 AM
Where will LeBron James go?

I hope he goes off my TV. Hasn't this been a bit much?

I'm having a hard time keeping up with what Bret Favre is doing this summer due to all the LeBron coverage.

theAlaskanBear
07-08-2010, 09:58 AM
That may be true. Well, in New York it would definitely be true. Outside of New York? I think winning with either New York or New Jersey would have similar impact on his legacy. Winning in Cleveland (and staying in one place) would do the most for his legacy, but I don't think he has a chance to win in Cleveland - at least for several years.

In any case, I think Miami offers the least in terms of enhancing James' legacy. Chicago comes in next in terms of offering the least.

I think this is a very accurate statement. Chicago will alway be Jordan's team for until the generation that came of age in the 80s and 90s begins to die off.

I am debating which would be most transformative to LeBron: going to the Nets, moving the franchise to NY, and carving out the Knicks fanbase, or going to the Knicks and resuscitating that franchise. NYC REALLY wants LeBron, you should have seen the daily show Monday night with Julianne Moore (or was it last night?).

I personally am pulling for the Nets, because I like the new staff, owner, and the history with Dr. J, etc. But at this point, speculation is pointless, we will know in 11 hours!

Also, I think many at ESPN know where LeBron is headed, and they are selling this LeBron to Miami BS as a smokescreen for his announcement. then they can go apepoo when he announces something else.

Dr. Rosenrosen
07-08-2010, 10:12 AM
I think we're operating under a different definition of legacy, because LeBron would achieve immortality if he did that. NY hasn't won a title since 1973, and no one would discount that accomplishment simply because he had Stoudemire helping him.

If he does the same thing in Miami or Chicago or even NJ (because honestly, who cares about the Nets???), he will be respected. But he would become an absolute legend if he did in NY...no matter who else is on the roster.

Totally agree on Miami b/c of Wade's presence.

Don't necessarily agree on NJ. Think about Chicago pre-Jordan... not really that much going on other than a few great players here and there and some respectable finishes in the playoffs. Jordan established his legacy in a town with no real NBA tradition. Why couldn't NJ be the same?

And regarding Chicago as a possible destination, I also don't agree that LBJ couldn't establish himself as a legend. Yes, it is Jordan's town. But it would hard to dispute that Kobe has established himself as legend in franchise that is full of historical achievements and lengendary individual players.

This said, I am starting to hope that he never wins a championship and establishes himself as the legend that should have been.

jjh1080
07-08-2010, 10:24 AM
IMO, if Lebron goes to Miami now it will look like he needed to team up with two other all stars to win a title. That tells me Lebron doesn't think he is good enough to lead a team to a title. Thus, that will open the debate of just how good he really is.

From all the hype of the ESPN show and his free agency, I now believe there is no way this guy can live up to MJ. He is all hype and no show.

The mark of a great player is someone who leads his team, not just in scoring or rebounding but in everything. He is acting like an over-grown 16 year old boy. Probably why I don't follow any pro sports much, they are all like over-grown 16 year old boys.

Give me Coach K and Duke basketball any day. Lebron who?

theAlaskanBear
07-08-2010, 10:59 AM
IMO, if Lebron goes to Miami now it will look like he needed to team up with two other all stars to win a title. That tells me Lebron doesn't think he is good enough to lead a team to a title. Thus, that will open the debate of just how good he really is.

From all the hype of the ESPN show and his free agency, I now believe there is no way this guy can live up to MJ. He is all hype and no show.

The mark of a great player is someone who leads his team, not just in scoring or rebounding but in everything. He is acting like an over-grown 16 year old boy. Probably why I don't follow any pro sports much, they are all like over-grown 16 year old boys.

Give me Coach K and Duke basketball any day. Lebron who?

Wow, way to generalize about professional athletes. People are maybe understandably piling on LeBron, but we all need to step back a minute and imagine walking in his really big shoes.

This "all hype and no show" jumped into the league and averaged 20 5 and 5 right out of highschool. The man did 30 7 and 7 this third year in the league. Does no one remember Jordan needed 7 years and the ripe old age of 28 to win his first championship! Jordan got 3 years in college to mature mentally and develop his game. And let's not forget Jordan didn't start winning until the greatest coach in sports history came in and installed the triangle offense.

LeBron is 25 and has been in the spotlight his whole adult life. He has unbelievable pressure coming from the media, the fans, and entire cities. Just because he is famous doesn't mean we can deny his humanism. You tell me exactly how James is a 16 year old boy??? Thats a degrading and inaccurate comment.

CoBlueDevil
07-08-2010, 11:06 AM
What amazes me the most about all of this, is that Lebron has not won anything, yet all ESPN covers is Lebron and they have been doing it ever since he came into the league. I mean Kobe has just won back to back titles and is at five total and we never hear a peep about him. As someone stated above Lebron is all hype and no results. I use to pull for Lebron, but if he decides to go to Miami, I wont anymore.

CDu
07-08-2010, 11:12 AM
What amazes me the most about all of this, is that Lebron has not won anything, yet all ESPN covers is Lebron and they have been doing it ever since he came into the league. I mean Kobe has just won back to back titles and is at five total and we never hear a peep about him. As someone stated above Lebron is all hype and no results. I use to pull for Lebron, but if he decides to go to Miami, I wont anymore.

Well, a couple of things:

1. We most certainly do hear plenty about Bryant during the year. we just aren't hearing anything about him now because he's not a free agent.
2. James is probably a better player than Bryant at this point (though Bryant is a close #2). Bryant just has had better talent around him.

theAlaskanBear
07-08-2010, 11:21 AM
What amazes me the most about all of this, is that Lebron has not won anything, yet all ESPN covers is Lebron and they have been doing it ever since he came into the league. I mean Kobe has just won back to back titles and is at five total and we never hear a peep about him. As someone stated above Lebron is all hype and no results. I use to pull for Lebron, but if he decides to go to Miami, I wont anymore.

We hear PLENTY about Kobe. I think this is just a case of selective hearing or memory. Second, when there were rumors about Kobe leaving the Lakers, or demanding a trade, or having sex in hotels, etc etc he DOMINATED the waves just like LeBron is dominating now. There is nothing "new" about Kobe so he takes a back seat.

Secondly James will definitely end up with better career numbers than Kobe. Check out Kobe's first few years when he entered the league. Kobe's early championships were almost entirely Shaq-driven.

muzikfrk75
07-08-2010, 11:30 AM
While sources close to James insist his heart is in Cleveland and remaining with the Cavaliers was his preferred choice, they say he had concerns about signing a six-year deal there and ending up "31 years old, with bad knees and no title."

In other words, he's listening to KG's advice about being loyal to a team for too long. By the time Garnett was traded to the Celtics he was still a very good player but definitely past his prime. If Lebron leaves Cleveland, good for him. We all have opinions on what he should do but at the end of the day, he and only he is the one that has to live with it.

CoBlueDevil
07-08-2010, 11:31 AM
We hear PLENTY about Kobe. I think this is just a case of selective hearing or memory. Second, when there were rumors about Kobe leaving the Lakers, or demanding a trade, or having sex in hotels, etc etc he DOMINATED the waves just like LeBron is dominating now. There is nothing "new" about Kobe so he takes a back seat.

Secondly James will definitely end up with better career numbers than Kobe. Check out Kobe's first few years when he entered the league. Kobe's early championships were almost entirely Shaq-driven.

Yeah, I understand why Lebron is so hyped right now becuse of the free agency. And i agree that Lebron will have better career numbers than Kobe, he will most likely set all-time records in multiple categories. But I undoubtedly would take the titles over the career numbers. And in that regard I don't think Lebron will ever be better than Kobe, even if Kobe was "number two" during the Shaq era.

theAlaskanBear
07-08-2010, 11:44 AM
Yeah, I understand why Lebron is so hyped right now becuse of the free agency. And i agree that Lebron will have better career numbers than Kobe, he will most likely set all-time records in multiple categories. But I undoubtedly would take the titles over the career numbers. And in that regard I don't think Lebron will ever be better than Kobe, even if Kobe was "number two" during the Shaq era.

Well certainly...championships are the reasons the game is played! I was just underscoring how much "luck" is involved at arriving in the right situation with the right personnel and organization to win. It's not like James had a choice of where he was drafted or who he gets to play with. Now he does.

DevilHorns
07-08-2010, 11:46 AM
Except that winning a championship in Miami on Wade's team won't do all that much for his legacy. I think people will view it as "he had to go to a 'stacked' team in order to win a title." His legacy would be more enhanced by going to a team that wasn't considered a stacked team and leading them to a championship.

For example, going to New Jersey and leading that young team to a championship would greatly enhance his legacy. Going to New York and taking the leadership role as batman to Stoudemire's robin would enhance his legacy (though by not as much). Chicago may have a better supporting cast right now than Miami (depending upon what Miami could get to fill the roster), but winning there would still probably do more for his legacy.

Basically, going to Miami would do the least for his legacy (aside from staying in Cleveland and not winning anything).


IMO, if Lebron goes to Miami now it will look like he needed to team up with two other all stars to win a title. That tells me Lebron doesn't think he is good enough to lead a team to a title. Thus, that will open the debate of just how good he really is.

From all the hype of the ESPN show and his free agency, I now believe there is no way this guy can live up to MJ. He is all hype and no show.

The mark of a great player is someone who leads his team, not just in scoring or rebounding but in everything. He is acting like an over-grown 16 year old boy. Probably why I don't follow any pro sports much, they are all like over-grown 16 year old boys.

Give me Coach K and Duke basketball any day. Lebron who?

IMO, this is a very superficial way to look at the situation. If you look at any great team in the NBA they are almost undoubtedly always 'stacked.' If you don't realize this, its b/c of the media-driven public perception of the supporting cast.

Let's look at Jordan's Bulls.... Pippen is a top 10 player in the league, probably the most underrated player every to play the game. Rodman is the best rebounder in the league. Or the Lakers with Magic and Worthy and Jabbar. Or how about Shaq and Kobe or even Kobe and Pau, clearly top 3 at their respective positions. Do we think less of Magic's legacy, for example, since he had an incredible supporting cast? No, and I'll tell you why, because their team didn't come together like this one would. If the Heat acquire Lebron, then it smells of the idea that the Heat are 'buying' a team instead of making one. Thats all perception. Every team is out to get the best FAs they can get. Cleveland tried with Jamison to take them over the top. Didn't work.

If Lebron goes to Miami, they can make a dynasty. And in my eyes, he isn't lessening his legacy because he isn't choosing a team that doesn't have as much to offer. And on that note, that is incredibly arguable as well. Chicago may have a better total cast with Rose, Boozer, Noah, and Deng and IMO would be a better fit for him.

Hate him or not, if he goes to Miami it's a mature calculated decision. He is hurting his brand in the sense that he will have to share some of the limelight with other superstars, and he doesn't mind doing that because he wants to WIN. Remember the Lil Penny Hardaway commercials? He had a brand too, but no rings. How's his legacy?

Orange&BlackSheep
07-08-2010, 11:48 AM
Kobe is the best player of the 2000's, and to me, it is not even close. LeBron ... great, great player. But to me he has not achieved the level of a Magic Johnson and other all-time greats who would figure out a way to win games on the fly. Maybe he will become that person. We shall see.

I do have to admit that I can't take my eyes off this train wreck. Many of the criticisms leveled at LeBron in this thread about his persona, the way he has handled all of this, and even his game I think are fairly stated. But even as my opinion of him diminishes, I can't help but be curious as to how this is going to turn out.

CoBlueDevil
07-08-2010, 11:55 AM
Well certainly...championships are the reasons the game is played! I was just underscoring how much "luck" is involved at arriving in the right situation with the right personnel and organization to win. It's not like James had a choice of where he was drafted or who he gets to play with. Now he does.

Kobe was definitely drafted then traded into a great position to win, while Lebron was basically forced to bring Cavs out of obscurity. It will definitely be interesting to see if Lebron is willing to take a back seat, if you will, to Wade in Miami. I do think that those three will win titles, they just need a semi-talented bench to support them when they get tired.

jjh1080
07-08-2010, 12:00 PM
Yes I remember how long it took Jordan to win a title.

I also remember Jordan telling everyone he only won a title because he understood what it meant to play as a team, not that he needed two all stars to play with him.

Lebron will be in the Hall, no doubt but there are a lot of guys in the Hall that no one talks about. When they talk about those in the Hall that didn't win a title they usually bring that up. ;)

With all this hype, an EPSN hour show, he is bringing on the pressure himself by doing such things. I believe Wade and Bosh were feeling the pressure so they got it over with, no hype, no hour ESPN show. How many humans have put on a one hour ESPN show (besides ESPN folks); after tonight only one. Not a real human thing. If you want to be treated like every other human you need to act like every other human.

KG is probably a great name to bring up. I stated it back when Minnesota paid him the big bucks, that he wasn't the leader of a team, the kind of guy that would lead you to a title. But he could help a team win a title (Scottie Pippen). He did just that in Boston, helped. I believe that is where Lebron is and if he goes to Miami he will be another KG, a helper.

And all this hype for a "helper."

theAlaskanBear
07-08-2010, 12:02 PM
Kobe is the best player of the 2000's, and to me, it is not even close. LeBron ... great, great player. But to me he has not achieved the level of a Magic Johnson and other all-time greats who would figure out a way to win games on the fly. Maybe he will become that person. We shall see.

I do have to admit that I can't take my eyes off this train wreck. Many of the criticisms leveled at LeBron in this thread about his persona, the way he has handled all of this, and even his game I think are fairly stated. But even as my opinion of him diminishes, I can't help but be curious as to how this is going to turn out.

I dont have statistics for Magic, but in regards to Kobe, check out these stats:
http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm
James 17/50 Kobe 14/56

Now, these dont include the 2010 season. But it certainly casts doubt on your assumptions that Kobe is a great and figures out how to win on the fly...if thats the case then LeBron can too.

Also, look at 2009-2010 clutch performances: http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM
Lebron is so far ahead of the competition...it's not close.

toooskies
07-08-2010, 12:13 PM
It's funny-- the random factors that go into who wins any given game suddenly define whether the player is great or not?

The Kobe/LeBron comparison isn't so clear-cut for Kobe. Despite the incessant media coverage claiming that LeBron has no valuable members of his supporting cast, he's had a winning season in every year since his rookie year (and he still improved the team's record by 18 games). Since his rookie year, LeBron hasn't been on a losing team. Kobe, meanwhile, cruised to a 34-48 season with a terrible supporting cast.

In other words, Kobe didn't win while playing on a bad team. LeBron, despite being on so-called terrible teams for his entire tenure in Cleveland, has prospered, and led a team with no supporting cast to 60-win seasons the past two years.

CoBlueDevil
07-08-2010, 12:46 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100708

Great article by Bill Simmons about LeBron. I love Bill, hes hilarious, and I think he hits this whole "LeBronocalypse", as he states it, right on the head.

CDu
07-08-2010, 01:14 PM
IMO, this is a very superficial way to look at the situation. If you look at any great team in the NBA they are almost undoubtedly always 'stacked.' If you don't realize this, its b/c of the media-driven public perception of the supporting cast.

Let's look at Jordan's Bulls.... Pippen is a top 10 player in the league, probably the most underrated player every to play the game. Rodman is the best rebounder in the league. Or the Lakers with Magic and Worthy and Jabbar. Or how about Shaq and Kobe or even Kobe and Pau, clearly top 3 at their respective positions. Do we think less of Magic's legacy, for example, since he had an incredible supporting cast? No, and I'll tell you why, because their team didn't come together like this one would. If the Heat acquire Lebron, then it smells of the idea that the Heat are 'buying' a team instead of making one. Thats all perception. Every team is out to get the best FAs they can get. Cleveland tried with Jamison to take them over the top. Didn't work.

If Lebron goes to Miami, they can make a dynasty. And in my eyes, he isn't lessening his legacy because he isn't choosing a team that doesn't have as much to offer. And on that note, that is incredibly arguable as well. Chicago may have a better total cast with Rose, Boozer, Noah, and Deng and IMO would be a better fit for him.

Hate him or not, if he goes to Miami it's a mature calculated decision. He is hurting his brand in the sense that he will have to share some of the limelight with other superstars, and he doesn't mind doing that because he wants to WIN. Remember the Lil Penny Hardaway commercials? He had a brand too, but no rings. How's his legacy?

It's not superficial, and I think you're making the wrong comparisons. The choices are this:

1. Win a championship as the alpha dog (i.e., be the Jordan/Kobe/Magic): possible in Chicago, New York, New Jersey, Cleveland (perhaps least likely in Cleveland)
2. Win a championhip as the second fiddle or co-star, with a bit of tarnish as a "hired gun": Miami fits this description best, and to a lesser degree so does Chicago
3. Don't win a championship.

Option #1 gives the best impact on his legacy. Option #2 is better than option #3, but it is inferior to option #1. Basically, Chicago provides arguably the best chance to win championships, offers it with the chance to be the top star on those championship teams, and has less of a "hired gun" tarnish than he would get in Miami. Miami offers a good chance at titles, but takes a hit on legacy. New York and New Jersey offer a higher top-end on legacy, but reduced chance of winning a title and reaching that legacy. So going to Chicago would seem the best bet in terms of establishing a legacy (high chance of a title, and also the opportunity to be the top dog).

The comparisons to Pippen are not apt. James is a bigger star than Pippen already. The comparisons to Penny aren't apt. Penny had a series of injuries that derailed his career.

Duvall
07-08-2010, 01:16 PM
It's not superficial, and I think you're making the wrong comparisons. The choices are this:

1. Win a championship as the alpha dog (i.e., be the Jordan/Kobe/Magic): possible in Chicago, New York, New Jersey, Cleveland (perhaps least likely in Cleveland)
2. Win a championhip as the second fiddle or co-star, with a bit of tarnish as a "hired gun": Miami fits this description best, and to a lesser degree so does Chicago
3. Don't win a championship.

When did Magic win a championship without a co-star? I mean, aside from Michigan State.

CDu
07-08-2010, 01:34 PM
When did Magic win a championship without a co-star? I mean, aside from Michigan State.

I'd say that at least two of Magic's titles (the last two) were with him as the star. By "co-star" I mean being only on par with another star or being the second fiddle to another star. The last two titles were Magic with a bunch of really good players around him, but Magic was clearly the top dog on those teams. Heck, even in the second of Magic's titles he was the star player (nearly averaging a triple double) and Kareem was on the downside of his career. It was only as a rookie that Magic was the second fiddle.

In Miami, the Heat are still Wade's team. On any other team, James is the unquestioned #1 (like Magic in at least the last three of those Lakers champions, and arguably in a fourth as well). Some of those teams have star players, but they'd all be secondary to him. In Miami, LeBron would be one of three stars, and considered the hired gun on Wade's team.

moonpie23
07-08-2010, 01:37 PM
you gotta have some bigs to beat LA..........i think chicago is looking really good.....

derrick rose is NOT deron williams.....but he's very close.....

noah, boozer, rose ? good team.....throw in lebron?

contenders....

jipops
07-08-2010, 02:42 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100708

Great article by Bill Simmons about LeBron. I love Bill, hes hilarious, and I think he hits this whole "LeBronocalypse", as he states it, right on the head.

I will be choosing NOT to watch LeBrachelor tonight.

NSDukeFan
07-08-2010, 02:46 PM
... Jordan got 3 years in college to mature mentally and develop his game. And let's not forget Jordan didn't start winning until the greatest coach in sports history came in and installed the triangle offense.

When did Coach K install the triangle? Was that what Hurley, Laettner, Hill et al. were running? ;)

Where will LeBron James go?

I hope he goes off my TV. Hasn't this been a bit much?

I'm having a hard time keeping up with what Bret Favre is doing this summer due to all the LeBron coverage.
I agree. I need to hear more about Favre's plans. :)


http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100708

Great article by Bill Simmons about LeBron. I love Bill, hes hilarious, and I think he hits this whole "LeBronocalypse", as he states it, right on the head.
I liked Simmons article. Thanks for adding the link on "his column with the shortest shelf life."

I'd say that at least two of Magic's titles (the last two) were with him as the star. By "co-star" I mean being only on par with another star or being the second fiddle to another star. The last two titles were Magic with a bunch of really good players around him, but Magic was clearly the top dog on those teams. Heck, even in the second of Magic's titles he was the star player (nearly averaging a triple double) and Kareem was on the downside of his career. It was only as a rookie that Magic was the second fiddle.

In Miami, the Heat are still Wade's team. On any other team, James is the unquestioned #1 (like Magic in at least the last three of those Lakers champions, and arguably in a fourth as well). Some of those teams have star players, but they'd all be secondary to him. In Miami, LeBron would be one of three stars, and considered the hired gun on Wade's team.

I don't disagree that if LeBron were to win championship(s) in Cleveland or New York, it would mean a lot to his legacy. I wonder if his legacy would be harmed if he ended up winning more (multiple) championships in Miami. I see how that would be difficult to accomplish this year with 9 minimum guys, but if Wade-Bron-Bosh were to win a few titles, I don't see how this would hurt LeBron's legacy. If he gets his finals MVP(s), will there be that much concern about it being Wade's team?

Who has a better legacy: John Havilcek and Bob Cousy, or Elgin Baylor and Jerry West?
I am happy to have a history lesson on why this comparison is inappropriate or why it has merit. I have learned a lot of basketball history here (I mean on this board, not on this thread.)

Duvall
07-08-2010, 02:52 PM
In Miami, the Heat are still Wade's team. On any other team, James is the unquestioned #1 (like Magic in at least the last three of those Lakers champions, and arguably in a fourth as well). Some of those teams have star players, but they'd all be secondary to him. In Miami, LeBron would be one of three stars, and considered the hired gun on Wade's team.

Couldn't LeBron establish himself as the #1 in Miami by being a better basketball player than Dwyane Wade, as he's done repeatedly over the years? Sure Wade would still be #1 in the hearts of Heat fans, but there are only like 40-50 of them. Everyone else is fair game.

I dunno. I think if James continues to be a great player, but adds championships to his resume, he'll cement his legacy regardless of who his teammates are.

CDu
07-08-2010, 02:54 PM
When did Coach K install the triangle? Was that what Hurley, Laettner, Hill et al. were running? ;)

I agree. I need to hear more about Favre's plans. :)


I liked Simmons article. Thanks for adding the link on "his column with the shortest shelf life."


I don't disagree that if LeBron were to win championship(s) in Cleveland or New York, it would mean a lot to his legacy. I wonder if his legacy would be harmed if he ended up winning more (multiple) championships in Miami. I see how that would be difficult to accomplish this year with 9 minimum guys, but if Wade-Bron-Bosh were to win a few titles, I don't see how this would hurt LeBron's legacy. If he gets his finals MVP(s), will there be that much concern about it being Wade's team?

Who has a better legacy: John Havilcek and Bob Cousy, or Elgin Baylor and Jerry West?
I am happy to have a history lesson on why this comparison is inappropriate or why it has merit. I have learned a lot of basketball history here (I mean on this board, not on this thread.)

First, I didn't say winning multiple titles would hurt James's legacy. I just said it wouldn't boost his legacy as much as winning championships in Cleveland or NY/NJ.

As for the comparisons, I'd say that as far as legacy goes, it's Cousy/West, then Havlicek, then Baylor. And that has less to do with the titles than it does the fact that Cousy is often regarded as the reason for the invention of the shot clock, and West is the NBA logo.

Double DD
07-08-2010, 03:00 PM
As I read in a column I saw earlier this week, if LeBron heads to Miami, I hope he enjoys being the A-Rod to Wade's Jeter.

CDu
07-08-2010, 03:00 PM
Couldn't LeBron establish himself as the #1 in Miami by being a better basketball player than Dwyane Wade, as he's done repeatedly over the years? Sure Wade would still be #1 in the hearts of Heat fans, but there are only like 40-50 of them. Everyone else is fair game.

I dunno. I think if James continues to be a great player, but adds championships to his resume, he'll cement his legacy regardless of who his teammates are.

Sure, but he doesn't shake the tarnish of people saying he needed to follow Wade and Bosh to Miami to get his titles. If he wins in Cleveland or New Jersey, that issue is negated. Thus, I think his reputation is enhanced more than if he wins in Miami or Chicago, and to a lesser degree New York (though I'd say New York is closer to Cleveland and New Jersey in this case).

I'm not saying that winning in Miami will hurt his legacy. I'm saying that it won't help as much as winning in those other places would.

I'm also saying that it's a balancing act. His best shot to win is in Chicago. His next best shot to win is in Miami (and that order could change depending on subsequent moves). Those two teams reduce his risk of heading to the Wilt Chamberlain category. But going to Miami to create a "super team" would tarnish the view a bit relative to winning in those other places where he didn't follow a bunch of superstars.

muzikfrk75
07-08-2010, 03:14 PM
I just don't understand why none of them want to go to Chicago...although I did hear that Rose wanted Joe Johnson more than Lebron. I understand that Chicago needs shooters, but Rose, are you serious????

NSDukeFan
07-08-2010, 03:16 PM
Couldn't LeBron establish himself as the #1 in Miami by being a better basketball player than Dwyane Wade, as he's done repeatedly over the years? Sure Wade would still be #1 in the hearts of Heat fans, but there are only like 40-50 of them. Everyone else is fair game.

I dunno. I think if James continues to be a great player, but adds championships to his resume, he'll cement his legacy regardless of who his teammates are.
I agree completely with you here.

Sure, but he doesn't shake the tarnish of people saying he needed to follow Wade and Bosh to Miami to get his titles. If he wins in Cleveland or New Jersey, that issue is negated. Thus, I think his reputation is enhanced more than if he wins in Miami or Chicago, and to a lesser degree New York (though I'd say New York is closer to Cleveland and New Jersey in this case).

I'm not saying that winning in Miami will hurt his legacy. I'm saying that it won't help as much as winning in those other places would.

I'm also saying that it's a balancing act. His best shot to win is in Chicago. His next best shot to win is in Miami (and that order could change depending on subsequent moves). Those two teams reduce his risk of heading to the Wilt Chamberlain category. But going to Miami to create a "super team" would tarnish the view a bit relative to winning in those other places where he didn't follow a bunch of superstars.

I think in the long run, championships matter more than who your teammates were when you got them. Of course, there is no guarantee he wins anywhere he goes, but he is a pretty darn good player who is getting pretty close to getting a ring. Whether he "chases" a title by going where he thinks he has the best chance of winning, or others "chase" him, I don't think matters that much. And I agree with Duvall that if he "follows" Wade, but is the best player on a championship team, how much does it matter?

CDu
07-08-2010, 03:26 PM
I agree completely with you here.


I think in the long run, championships matter more than who your teammates were when you got them. Of course, there is no guarantee he wins anywhere he goes, but he is a pretty darn good player who is getting pretty close to getting a ring. Whether he "chases" a title by going where he thinks he has the best chance of winning, or others "chase" him, I don't think matters that much. And I agree with Duvall that if he "follows" Wade, but is the best player on a championship team, how much does it matter?

We've never seen anything like this before, so it's certainly all speculative. But the closest example I can give is ARod, who had to join the Yankees to win. And people still think of him as a me-first second fiddle to Jeter, even though he's been the MVP at least once more than Jeter since the two have joined forces. But even ARod isn't a perfect comparison because of the steroids thing and the playoff slumps earlier in his career. But the ARod analogy is close to the idea I'm getting at.

My main point (which has led to quite a tangent) was a disagreement with the idea that choosing Miami is the best decision for his legacy. I'd argue that Chicago is the best location for his chances to win while avoiding looking like ARod (it's a bit of a paradox, but despite being a better chance to win it looks less like an ARod move than going to Miami). Cleveland or New Jersey offer the best chance to avoid looking like ARod but offer less chance of a title. Miami is in the middle.

Again - it's all speculative. I just feel that LeBron's legacy winning in Miami will be less relative to his legacy if he won in one of the other locations. It's a silly distinction, and maybe one he's not concerned about.

NSDukeFan
07-08-2010, 03:37 PM
We've never seen anything like this before, so it's certainly all speculative. But the closest example I can give is ARod, who had to join the Yankees to win. And people still think of him as a me-first second fiddle to Jeter, even though he's been the MVP at least once more than Jeter since the two have joined forces. But even ARod isn't a perfect comparison because of the steroids thing and the playoff slumps earlier in his career. But the ARod analogy is close to the idea I'm getting at.

My main point (which has led to quite a tangent) was a disagreement with the idea that choosing Miami is the best decision for his legacy. I'd argue that Chicago is the best location for his chances to win while avoiding looking like ARod (it's a bit of a paradox, but despite being a better chance to win it looks less like an ARod move than going to Miami). Cleveland or New Jersey offer the best chance to avoid looking like ARod but offer less chance of a title. Miami is in the middle.

Again - it's all speculative. I just feel that LeBron's legacy winning in Miami will be less relative to his legacy if he won in one of the other locations. It's a silly distinction, and maybe one he's not concerned about.
Very interesting comparison.

jipops
07-08-2010, 04:31 PM
If a 3-headed monster were to be the case in Miami, you would essentially be looking at Heat team with no bench. I mean that almost literally. The bench would consist of the coach, his assistants, a trainer, and a couple D-league guys. That's it. There would be more empty seats on the bench than the rest of the arena.

Duvall
07-08-2010, 04:38 PM
There would be more empty seats on the bench than the rest of the arena.

I find this hard to believe. It's still Miami.

jipops
07-08-2010, 04:40 PM
I find this hard to believe. It's still Miami.

true, but interesting speculation:D

jjh1080
07-08-2010, 04:44 PM
This is funny.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/sneak-peek-at-lebron-james-show-070710?GT1=39002

Copy this into your browser if the link doesn't work.

A-Tex Devil
07-08-2010, 08:31 PM
Sexy Dexter Pittman is the projected starting center in Miami if LeBron comes. Yes. That Dexter Pittman.

Duvall
07-08-2010, 08:32 PM
Sexy Dexter Pittman is the projected starting center in Miami if LeBron comes. Yes. That Dexter Pittman.

Okay, but who's going to play the other 40 minutes?

Indoor66
07-08-2010, 08:38 PM
President Obama holds forth on the LaBron issue - and other things.... (http://www.theonion.com/articles/president-obama-mentions-hed-like-to-see-lebron-ja,17512/):D

weezie
07-08-2010, 09:13 PM
Gaaarggghhh! I thought they said ten minutes in he would make his pick for prom queen.
Stuie Scott's necktie knot is bigger than his head. Really.

Verga3
07-08-2010, 09:15 PM
Whomever he chooses he's lost me as a fan. What a "me" circus...

weezie
07-08-2010, 09:18 PM
This is hilarious, really.
Sell more cheese LBJ!!!
cheese and Vitamin water!

wgl1228
07-08-2010, 09:20 PM
This is one of the more disgusting things I have ever seen in sports. I have lost all respect for Lebron. ESPN should be ashamed of themselves as well, but this is typical behavior for them.

Duvall
07-08-2010, 09:20 PM
Sell more cheese LBJ!!!

What?

weezie
07-08-2010, 09:23 PM
The commercials.

Ah well, see ya Cleveland.....

hurleyfor3
07-08-2010, 09:34 PM
OK, now I can turn off the teevee.

For the summer.

papa whiskey
07-08-2010, 09:48 PM
Chicago with Rose, Boozer, Deng, Noah would have been a much better fit IMHO.

beach rev
07-08-2010, 09:49 PM
As a native Clevelander, I hear LeBron talk about ‘legacy,’ but Jack McCallum from Sports Illustrated describes my feelings well: ‘LeBron is drunk on the magnificence of his own LeBron-ness.’ Good luck, King James, and don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

HaveFunExpectToWin
07-08-2010, 09:51 PM
I know one thing, the Heat away games are going to sell out quick. This will be fun to watch.

Can Scheyer get another ring???

papa whiskey
07-08-2010, 09:51 PM
A lot of people from Cleveland say this and burn his jersey in the streets but would take him back in a second if he offered.

fgb
07-08-2010, 09:56 PM
Whomever he chooses he's lost me as a fan. What a "me" circus...

he lost me as a fan this morning, when i read that he grew up routing for the cowboys and yankees, rather that the browns and indians or reds, because he wanted to associate himself with winners. talk about not having heart.

em0526
07-08-2010, 09:59 PM
AKA - Team USA

DevilHorns
07-08-2010, 10:03 PM
Couldn't LeBron establish himself as the #1 in Miami by being a better basketball player than Dwyane Wade, as he's done repeatedly over the years? Sure Wade would still be #1 in the hearts of Heat fans, but there are only like 40-50 of them. Everyone else is fair game.

I dunno. I think if James continues to be a great player, but adds championships to his resume, he'll cement his legacy regardless of who his teammates are.

I am one of those 40-50 fans! :D

I couldn't be more happy right now. Obviously a 3-headed monster team will not be enough (doesn't that ring a bell? :rolleyes:). We'll need some key veterans and role players to come in. I know we don't have the cap-space, but we will have the selling point that this team will WIN.

Patrick Riley does it again. First Shaq, and now LBJ.

Duvall
07-08-2010, 10:04 PM
I hope everyone is as outraged as I am by this selfish professional athlete that has chosen to take less money in exchange for a chance to win a team championship.

WiJoe
07-08-2010, 10:06 PM
I am one of those 40-50 fans! :D

I couldn't be more happy right now. Obviously a 3-headed monster team will not be enough (doesn't that ring a bell? :rolleyes:). We'll need some key veterans and role players to come in. I know we don't have the cap-space, but we will have the selling point that this team will WIN.

Patrick Riley does it again. First Shaq, and now LBJ.

Oh, wait. I thought Riley was done coaching. What a fraud.

Boo!

MisterRoddy
07-08-2010, 10:09 PM
I hope everyone is as outraged as I am by this selfish professional athlete that has chosen to take less money in exchange for a chance to win a team championship.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

MisterRoddy
07-08-2010, 10:11 PM
Oh, wait. I thought Riley was done coaching. What a fraud.

Boo!

He IS done coaching, if you were watching the show, you would've heard Lebron say that Spo was staying coach next year. (Erik Spoelstra)

DevilHorns
07-08-2010, 10:19 PM
He IS done coaching, if you were watching the show, you would've heard Lebron say that Spo was staying coach next year. (Erik Spoelstra)

As a long time heat fan (and I mean going to games to see G-money, Baby Jordan, and Ron Siekaly play), who has been through the Riley days with Mourning and Tim Hardaway, and then who has seen it come together with Shaq and a team of veterans, I have to say I will not be suprised at all if Riley becomes the coach at some point next year.

Obviously there isn't enough info yet on what made LBJ pick Miami (sounds more like Bosh and more so Wade in his ear), but I have a strong feeling that it was Riley who came up with a gameplan describing how he would use all 3 of them successfully.

The haters will hate. And thats fine. Everyone wishes they won the LBJ party.

dukelifer
07-08-2010, 10:23 PM
I know one thing, the Heat away games are going to sell out quick. This will be fun to watch.

Can Scheyer get another ring???

They will for sure- but my gut tells me they will struggle this coming year. Lebron's elbow and Wade's nagging injuries are concerns. They should be able to play fewer minutes. Perhaps they will run two teams - somewhat like what K did with the Olympic team. They will be fun to watch but they need some other players and they have little cap room. It is a very long regular season.

theAlaskanBear
07-08-2010, 10:25 PM
He IS done coaching, if you were watching the show, you would've heard Lebron say that Spo was staying coach next year. (Erik Spoelstra)

That's the funniest thing I've heard all night. Forget Wade, Bosh, or James, the biggest ego on the Heat's team is Pat Riley...

MisterRoddy
07-08-2010, 10:26 PM
As a long time heat fan (and I mean going to games to see G-money, Baby Jordan, and Ron Siekaly play), who has been through the Riley days with Mourning and Tim Hardaway, and then who has seen it come together with Shaq and a team of veterans, I have to say I will not be suprised at all if Riley becomes the coach at some point next year.

Obviously there isn't enough info yet on what made LBJ pick Miami (sounds more like Bosh and more so Wade in his ear), but I have a strong feeling that it was Riley who came up with a gameplan describing how he would use all 3 of them successfully.

The haters will hate. And thats fine. Everyone wishes they won the LBJ party.

I, too have been a long-time Heat fan (dad had team connections when I was younger) but I have a feeling Erik will stay coach (but not on the longest of leashes, obviously). Just something about Lebron, D-Wade, and Bosh all backing him up on national TV that makes me believe that.

MisterRoddy
07-08-2010, 10:34 PM
As a long time heat fan (and I mean going to games to see G-money, Baby Jordan, and Ron Siekaly play), who has been through the Riley days with Mourning and Tim Hardaway, and then who has seen it come together with Shaq and a team of veterans, I have to say I will not be suprised at all if Riley becomes the coach at some point next year..

By the way, it will sicken me how many bandwagon fans we will gain...

MulletMan
07-08-2010, 10:53 PM
A lot of people from Cleveland say this and burn his jersey in the streets but would take him back in a second if he offered.

You just don't get it. Part of the reason that people in Cleveland loved Lebron so much was because he always talked about how much he loved Cleveland. He was the one that was going to bring a title to town because he had the heart to do so.

Its clear now that he doesn't give a flying whatever about Cleveland. Clevelanders wouldn't take him back.

Buckeye Devil
07-08-2010, 10:57 PM
Even though I live in Ohio I am not a Cavs fan and never will be. Nevertheless, I can't help but feel a little sorry for the "Mistake on the Lake." It's only good professional franchise just joined the level of the hapless Indians and the hopeless Browns. But the Cavs kind of dug themselves this hole by trying to bring has-been players in to help James win a championship, i.e. Ben Wallace, Shaq, and spending big money in the process leaving themselves with no ability to sign the likes of a Bosh. They will be lucky to be the 8th seed next year.

SoCalDukeFan
07-08-2010, 11:15 PM
The inmates have taken over the asylum.

SoCal

Duvall
07-08-2010, 11:17 PM
The inmates have taken over the asylum.

SoCal

What on Earth does this mean? Are you suggesting that there's something wrong with players getting to choose where they play?

A-Tex Devil
07-08-2010, 11:20 PM
Even though I live in Ohio I am not a Cavs fan and never will be. Nevertheless, I can't help but feel a little sorry for the "Mistake on the Lake." It's only good professional franchise just joined the level of the hapless Indians and the hopeless Browns. But the Cavs kind of dug themselves this hole by trying to bring has-been players in to help James win a championship, i.e. Ben Wallace, Shaq, and spending big money in the process leaving themselves with no ability to sign the likes of a Bosh. They will be lucky to be the 8th seed next year.

Colt McCoy!! Savior of Cleveland!!

DevilHorns
07-08-2010, 11:29 PM
Even though I live in Ohio I am not a Cavs fan and never will be. Nevertheless, I can't help but feel a little sorry for the "Mistake on the Lake." It's only good professional franchise just joined the level of the hapless Indians and the hopeless Browns. But the Cavs kind of dug themselves this hole by trying to bring has-been players in to help James win a championship, i.e. Ben Wallace, Shaq, and spending big money in the process leaving themselves with no ability to sign the likes of a Bosh. They will be lucky to be the 8th seed next year.

Agreed. I feel for the Cleveland fans, but if they want to be mad, they should be mad at their team's decision making.

They will call him a traitor, burn his jerseys, and curse his name.

But, in the end, how can you blame Lebron. He took a $30 million pay cut to WIN as a team. He is making the mature decision at this point in his career.

cspan37421
07-08-2010, 11:34 PM
I thought the Mistake on the Lake was the modern shell they put around Soldier's Field in Chicago.

But anyway ...

Many people felt that LeBron would not make a big show of this if it would end up jilting Cleveland. And I thought, yes, well, aside from deflecting criticism by pointing out "it's for the children" (charity), he could wax rhapsodic about the importance of loyalty to one's own hometown, and it would be a real feelgood story in this age of hired-gun free agents. I have to concede, if he had done that, I'd have not really felt it was so much of a self-indulgent exercise.

Oh well, so much for that. I earlier read comments on the Plain Dealer website, about half blaming Ferry and about half blaming LeBron. I admit, I wouldn't have traded for Shaq, but overall, did Ferry really do a bad job? They did put together teams that won a lot of games, just none in the Finals.

I am a bit surprised by his going to Miami, in that he must share the spotlight. But he's never been a ball hog, so that makes some sense. And he has played on USA with Wade and Bosh, so that familiarity and experience must have been a positive factor.

WiJoe
07-08-2010, 11:45 PM
He IS done coaching, if you were watching the show, you would've heard Lebron say that Spo was staying coach next year. (Erik Spoelstra)

Sorry, NOT buying

MisterRoddy
07-08-2010, 11:47 PM
Sorry, NOT buying

I guess we'll just have to wait and see...

superdave
07-08-2010, 11:51 PM
Agreed. I feel for the Cleveland fans, but if they want to be mad, they should be mad at their team's decision making.

They will call him a traitor, burn his jerseys, and curse his name.

But, in the end, how can you blame Lebron. He took a $30 million pay cut to WIN as a team. He is making the mature decision at this point in his career.

This is a great point. He could have locked in an extra year and more $. But he saw Cleveland was not going to win.

But the way he went about the announcement was brutal to Cleveland fans. That idiot should be ashamed of his exit. I'm surprised he was that dumb to allow himself to earn that much ill will.

A friend of mine tweeted the LJ needs to take a toastmasters class...

blazindw
07-08-2010, 11:54 PM
I hope you guys have seen this, but if not, here's Cavs owner Dan Gilbert's response. In short, he's...upset. He. Went. IN. On. LeBron.

http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/news/gilbert_letter_100708.html

Duvall
07-08-2010, 11:59 PM
I hope you guys have seen this, but if not, here's Cavs owner Dan Gilbert's response. In short, he's...upset. He. Went. IN. On. LeBron.

http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/news/gilbert_letter_100708.html

There's nothing sadder than an entitled billionaire that's not used to hearing the word no.

CameronBornAndBred
07-09-2010, 12:03 AM
I hope you guys have seen this, but if not, here's Cavs owner Dan Gilbert's response. In short, he's...upset. He. Went. IN. On. LeBron.

http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/news/gilbert_letter_100708.html
That is disgusting. After reading it, James made the right move, I wouldn't want to work for an A-hole either.

MisterRoddy
07-09-2010, 12:06 AM
I hope you guys have seen this, but if not, here's Cavs owner Dan Gilbert's response. In short, he's...upset. He. Went. IN. On. LeBron.

http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/news/gilbert_letter_100708.html

I'm curious to see how exactly he plans on composing a championship caliber team before the Heat win it.

cspan37421
07-09-2010, 12:07 AM
I hope you guys have seen this, but if not, here's Cavs owner Dan Gilbert's response. In short, he's...upset. He. Went. IN. On. LeBron.

http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/news/gilbert_letter_100708.html

I think guarantees in sports have been meaningless and tiresome since, oh, I don't know, how about Joe Namath?

I understand his anger but he simply can't guarantee that, not with Donaghy out of the league anyway. And in fact, barring injury to one of the big 3 in Miami, they are IMO quite a bit more likely to contend for the title than Cleveland, even if players 4-12 or 15 or whatever play for the league minimum.

BTW, Ferry's timing looks really good now, doesn't it?

cspan37421
07-09-2010, 12:16 AM
As a "follow up," I count ten "times" that "Gilbert" used "quotes" in his "nastygram."

CameronBornAndBred
07-09-2010, 12:23 AM
As a "follow up," I count ten "times" that "Gilbert" used "quotes" in his "nastygram."
I quote all of your quotes.

Bluedevil114
07-09-2010, 12:39 AM
I hope now that the Knicks please take Gilbert Arenas off our hands in Washington so we can actually start over. We will throw in Haynesworth for free in the deal.

muzikfrk75
07-09-2010, 12:52 AM
So....Dan Gilbert is THAT upset, yet he was the #1 enabler of Lebron? I'm just sayin.

toooskies
07-09-2010, 01:03 AM
I don't think it's fair to give LeBron credit here for "winning a team championship". He wants championships because they'll bring in more endorsement money.

But the vast, vast majority of potential LeBron fans just went up in smoke. He's no longer welcome in Cleveland, he spurned NY and all the other teams, and he won't even be the biggest star in Miami (Wade gets home court advantage there). Even if he wins championships, he's taking a huge step back in the "global icon" race.

And it seems that while he's taking star power into account, he isn't taking much basketball into account. Himself and Dwyane simply won't be playing at 100% of their ability when they're on the court, so they won't be getting their money's worth. They'll always have two liabilities on the court. If anyone gets hurt or Bosh turns into the next Jermaine O'Neal, their championship hopes are gone.

But the biggest reason that Cleveland is hurt here is that for a long time, LeBron led us on to believe that he was a Clevelander. He knew how the city struggled, and seemed to care. But at the end of the day, the city didn't matter. He wasn't one of us. He was a Yankee fan, a Cowboys fan, a ship-jumping front-running player in a city that's fiercely loyal to itself and anything but the pick of places to go. In essence, Cleveland gets upset not because LeBron is leaving now, but because the past 7 years was a lie.

hc5duke
07-09-2010, 01:05 AM
I hope you guys have seen this, but if not, here's Cavs owner Dan Gilbert's response. In short, he's...upset. He. Went. IN. On. LeBron.

http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/news/gilbert_letter_100708.html

repeating the same joke i already made elsewhere, but... you know the man means business when you see that much comic sans

MisterRoddy
07-09-2010, 01:08 AM
I don't think it's fair to give LeBron credit here for "winning a team championship". He wants championships because they'll bring in more endorsement money.

Perhaps, one of the most misinformed quotes I've read on this board.

DevilHorns
07-09-2010, 01:35 AM
I don't think it's fair to give LeBron credit here for "winning a team championship". He wants championships because they'll bring in more endorsement money.

But the vast, vast majority of potential LeBron fans just went up in smoke. He's no longer welcome in Cleveland, he spurned NY and all the other teams, and he won't even be the biggest star in Miami (Wade gets home court advantage there). Even if he wins championships, he's taking a huge step back in the "global icon" race.

And it seems that while he's taking star power into account, he isn't taking much basketball into account. Himself and Dwyane simply won't be playing at 100% of their ability when they're on the court, so they won't be getting their money's worth. They'll always have two liabilities on the court. If anyone gets hurt or Bosh turns into the next Jermaine O'Neal, their championship hopes are gone.

But the biggest reason that Cleveland is hurt here is that for a long time, LeBron led us on to believe that he was a Clevelander. He knew how the city struggled, and seemed to care. But at the end of the day, the city didn't matter. He wasn't one of us. He was a Yankee fan, a Cowboys fan, a ship-jumping front-running player in a city that's fiercely loyal to itself and anything but the pick of places to go. In essence, Cleveland gets upset not because LeBron is leaving now, but because the past 7 years was a lie.

I feel bad for Cleveland, but you have to realize that Lebron is just like the rest of the NBA--- he is a hired gun. This is his job. And he wants to be the best at his job that he can be. Playing as point forward in Cleveland allowed him to excel to his maximum individual ability, but if the business did not recruit/purchase the right players around him, whats he supposed to do? Stay with the business out of loyalty? There is no true loyalty in major league sports. Lebron did not define that today. Thats always been the case. (and the few players that have stayed with the same team for so many years... players like Jeter for the yankees, or kobe for the lakers... do you think they would've stayed if they hadn't won championships?)

In terms of the whole global icon thing, Lebron has a chance to be the leader of a dynasty. Wade, Bosh, and LBJ are all under 30. That in itself is hard to swallow for the rest of the league. The world cares about winning and championships more than MVPs. Lebron figured that out in China when all the fans were gush about Kobe. He has made the right move for his career and legacy. Obviously he will not be able to run wild as point forward now with 2 other players to share the spotlight with, but to think that he will not shine in whatever system Pat Riley and co design for him is selling him and the rest of the team far too short. There are plenty of points to go around. Now we'll have to see how the egos play out. Because these 3 are good friends, and because he obviously thought this through with them, I think they generally will get along well.

And Bosh as Jermaine O'neal? Thats a stretch.

JasonEvans
07-09-2010, 01:48 AM
I have a feeling that Lebron told the Cavs one thing and then did something completely different. This is more than, "our free agent star left us," kinda anger from Gilbert.

Gilbert looks more than a little bit childish in this and has not cast himself in a very good light. Then again, he is saying what most of Cleveland is feeling and his fans will probably like him for it. On the PR-meter scale where 1 is abject failure and 10 is a total success, I give Gilbert a 4 for this letter (though it plays like an 8 or a 9 in Cleveland).

Still, nothing Cleveland does or says can repair LeBron's image at this point. The ESPN show was a negative 5 on the 1-to-10 scale. I don't think I have ever turned a 180 on an athlete like this in my life. I have gone from LeBron fan to hoping the Heat suck next season (and I still like DWade a lot!).

To me, Lebron looks like the worst of all sports figures-- a total ego-maniac who thinks the world revolves around him... but also a coward who was afraid of doing it himself. If you will pardon my French, he is DWade's b--ch.

--Jason "he shoulda gone to Chicago to play with Boozer, Deng, and (hopefully) JJ -- oh, and Rose and Gibson and Noah too... that would have been an awesome team!" Evans

mph
07-09-2010, 01:59 AM
Perhaps, one of the most misinformed quotes I've read on this board.

Whether or not James is motivated by endorsements, the OP's main point is a good one. Praising a player for putting the team first usually means they are sacrificing their person interests for the sake of their teammates. That's not the case here. While I certainly don't fault James for trying to put himself in a situation to win championships, I don't see how this can be spun as some noble act of self sacrifice. Whether it's for money, his legacy, or his sense of self worth, his decision to go to Miami is an act of self-interest, not altruism. This would have been equally true had he stayed in Cleveland.

LeBron's narcissism was revealed in the style of his decision, not the substance. The spectacle of a prime time announcement was unnecessary, self-indulgent, and disrespectful to the people of Cleveland. Very poor form.

FTR, if you think this was one of the most misinformed opinions on the DBR, you're not reading enough DBR.

MisterRoddy
07-09-2010, 02:03 AM
I have a feeling that Lebron told the Cavs one thing and then did something completely different. This is more than, "our free agent star left us," kinda anger from Gilbert.

Gilbert looks more than a little bit childish in this and has not cast himself in a very good light. Then again, he is saying what most of Cleveland is feeling and his fans will probably like him for it. On the PR-meter scale where 1 is abject failure and 10 is a total success, I give Gilbert a 4 for this letter (though it plays like an 8 or a 9 in Cleveland).

Still, nothing Cleveland does or says can repair LeBron's image at this point. The ESPN show was a negative 5 on the 1-to-10 scale. I don't think I have ever turned a 180 on an athlete like this in my life. I have gone from LeBron fan to hoping the Heat suck next season (and I still like DWade a lot!).

To me, Lebron looks like the worst of all sports figures-- a total ego-maniac who thinks the world revolves around him... but also a coward who was afraid of doing it himself. If you will pardon my French, he is DWade's b--ch.

--Jason "he shoulda gone to Chicago to play with Boozer, Deng, and (hopefully) JJ -- oh, and Rose and Gibson and Noah too... that would have been an awesome team!" Evans

Why would an ego-maniac go to a team that already has a bona-fide superstar and take less money to do so? I know the theatrics of the whole situation were over the top but when it comes down to it, James sacrificed his legacy, millions and millions of dollars, millions and millions of fans, stats, and his own team (figuratively), for the greater purpose of winning. That doesn't exactly scream ego-maniac that thinks the world revolves around him.

MisterRoddy
07-09-2010, 02:16 AM
Whether or not James is motivated by endorsements, the OP's main point is a good one. Praising a player for putting the team first usually means they are sacrificing their person interests for the sake of their teammates. That's not the case here. While I certainly don't fault James for trying to put himself in a situation to win championships, I don't see how this can be spun as some noble act of self sacrifice. Whether it's for money, his legacy, or his sense of self worth, his decision to go to Miami is an act of self-interest, not altruism. This would have been equally true had he stayed in Cleveland.

LeBron's narcissism was revealed in the style of his decision, not the substance. The spectacle of a prime time announcement was unnecessary, self-indulgent, and disrespectful to the people of Cleveland. Very poor form.

FTR, if you think this was one of the most misinformed opinions on the DBR, you're not reading enough DBR.

Alright, the idea that Lebron came to the Heat for the potential of getting A LOT of money through endorsements is highly misinformed. (Yes, I haven't really been a part of DBR for that long but I'm not counting the flat out dumb comments and I guess that was just my opinion.)

Also, him joining the Heat proves that he is all about winning, NOT ego. If he was concerned about ego, he would've gone to the Bulls or Knicks, not a team that already has a star it has dedicated itself to.

Yes, "The Decision" was over the top but the way the media covered the story before this was planned, would you really expect anything less? I do feel bad for the Cavaliers because they don't deserve it. I wish the best for that organization.

Vincetaylor
07-09-2010, 02:29 AM
I have a feeling that Lebron told the Cavs one thing and then did something completely different. This is more than, "our free agent star left us," kinda anger from Gilbert.

Gilbert looks more than a little bit childish in this and has not cast himself in a very good light. Then again, he is saying what most of Cleveland is feeling and his fans will probably like him for it. On the PR-meter scale where 1 is abject failure and 10 is a total success, I give Gilbert a 4 for this letter (though it plays like an 8 or a 9 in Cleveland).

Still, nothing Cleveland does or says can repair LeBron's image at this point. The ESPN show was a negative 5 on the 1-to-10 scale. I don't think I have ever turned a 180 on an athlete like this in my life. I have gone from LeBron fan to hoping the Heat suck next season (and I still like DWade a lot!).

To me, Lebron looks like the worst of all sports figures-- a total ego-maniac who thinks the world revolves around him... but also a coward who was afraid of doing it himself. If you will pardon my French, he is DWade's b--ch.

--Jason "he shoulda gone to Chicago to play with Boozer, Deng, and (hopefully) JJ -- oh, and Rose and Gibson and Noah too... that would have been an awesome team!" Evans


Agree with everything you say. LeBron finally acted his age. The press conference was in incredibly poor taste. He lost a lot of fans tonight. A lot. I'm guessing that he will someday realize that the way he handled his free agency was a mistake and immature. He totally had a right to leave Cleveland and I don't fault him for going to Miami. However, LeBron....show some class buddy. Can you imagine if Coach K became a coaching free agent and decided to handle it the way LeBron did? He creates a media spectacle, keeps Duke in the lurch, and decides to go to Maryland. Hard to imagine isn't it? It's because K has class, something BronBron has lacked recently.

theAlaskanBear
07-09-2010, 06:45 AM
Agree with everything you say. LeBron finally acted his age. The press conference was in incredibly poor taste. He lost a lot of fans tonight. A lot. I'm guessing that he will someday realize that the way he handled his free agency was a mistake and immature. He totally had a right to leave Cleveland and I don't fault him for going to Miami. However, LeBron....show some class buddy. Can you imagine if Coach K became a coaching free agent and decided to handle it the way LeBron did? He creates a media spectacle, keeps Duke in the lurch, and decides to go to Maryland. Hard to imagine isn't it? It's because K has class, something BronBron has lacked recently.

I've got news for you: LeBron has been in the NBA spotlight and a superstar since the ripe old age of 18. For 7 years -- all of his adult life, he has been conditioned by the ESPN sport-era (which is turning into a tabloid). How exactly did you expect him to act? You saw the coverage leading up to this.

LeBron was in a no-win situation, filled with enormous pressure that none of us can imagine. I'm really pissed he chose the Miami Heat, but I refuse to denigrate him. I actually felt sorry for the guy last night. He's had to mature and act over his age since he was in highschool...and he has done a remarkable job at that -- he's not allowed one mistake? He's HUMAN, sounds you all bought into that King James image as much as he did.

Duvall
07-09-2010, 07:19 AM
Whether or not James is motivated by endorsements, the OP's main point is a good one. Praising a player for putting the team first usually means they are sacrificing their person interests for the sake of their teammates. That's not the case here.

Well, aside from the additional $30 million he could have gotten by staying in Cleveland.

northernduke
07-09-2010, 07:20 AM
If you will pardon my French, he is DWade's b--ch.

I see it as A-Rod going to the Yankees. It is still Jeter's team. A-Rod had to take a back seat to the Captain and never will be more popular than Jeter in the NY market.

weezie
07-09-2010, 07:24 AM
he's not allowed one mistake? He's HUMAN, sounds you all bought into that King James image as much as he did.

True enough, although his post-game press conference disappearing act in '09, leaving Mo Williams to face the music and apologize to the fans of Cleveland for LBJ's absence, was pretty excruciating, too.

Anyway, the fine citizens of the great state of Michigan are laughing today. At least they aren't the nation's emotional punching bag for a change.

I wonder what Kobe thought of last night's extravaganza?!

Duvall
07-09-2010, 07:25 AM
I see it as A-Rod going to the Yankees. It is still Jeter's team. A-Rod had to take a back seat to the Captain and never will be more popular than Jeter in the NY market.

The difference is that Yankee fans cover the Earth like vermin, while Heat fans barely exist. While James will never be popular than Wade among Heat fans, if James is better than Wade he will make the Heat his team in the eyes of everyone else.

DevilHorns
07-09-2010, 07:28 AM
I've got news for you: LeBron has been in the NBA spotlight and a superstar since the ripe old age of 18. For 7 years -- all of his adult life, he has been conditioned by the ESPN sport-era (which is turning into a tabloid). How exactly did you expect him to act? You saw the coverage leading up to this.

LeBron was in a no-win situation, filled with enormous pressure that none of us can imagine. I'm really pissed he chose the Miami Heat, but I refuse to denigrate him. I actually felt sorry for the guy last night. He's had to mature and act over his age since he was in highschool...and he has done a remarkable job at that -- he's not allowed one mistake? He's HUMAN, sounds you all bought into that King James image as much as he did.

An excellent post. Though the Lebron thing had the stench of HawshunBwons, and left an ugly taste in my mouth similar to the whole skype fiasco.... to expect nothing less would have down played the entire coverage of this spectacle. I think ESPN had a Lebron countdown webpage entirely devoted to him for at least 3 months.

I feel bad for Cleveland, and I can see how people have lost a lot of respect for Lebron because the manner in which he did his announcement, but I think in the end, if he had chosen the Knicks or Bulls this wouldn't have been as bad in the eyes of many here. If he had chosen Cleveland then he would not be ridiculed by the Cleveland fans by this whole media thing. It just stings because he went to Miami, and in any over the top publicized event, many of the courting finalists will come off pissed. Thats human nature.

moonpie23
07-09-2010, 07:40 AM
Lebron handled himself extremely well last night. He was very well-spoken and answered questions with a diplomacy far past his age....

For you folks that are chewing the sour grapes this morning, ESPECIALLY MISTER Gilbert, i'd predict that you'll cool off and marvel at lebron's incredible contributions to the sporting world....


i wanted him to go to chicago..........but man, him, dwayde and bosh?

wowwwwww.....bring it on....

Channing
07-09-2010, 07:54 AM
(1) I am admittedly unhappy LeBron chose Miami, if just for the competition. I would have preferred to see him in Chicago, Cle, NJ or NY.

(2) I think Kevin Durant handled himself much better with his contract situation. A simple tweet to his fans that he was staying put. LeBron's whole shpiel seemed incredibly self serving an unnecessary. I don't begrudge him for choosing Miami, I begrudge him for making himself bigger than the Heat and the league.

DevilHorns
07-09-2010, 08:15 AM
(1) I am admittedly unhappy LeBron chose Miami, if just for the competition. I would have preferred to see him in Chicago, Cle, NJ or NY.

(2) I think Kevin Durant handled himself much better with his contract situation. A simple tweet to his fans that he was staying put. LeBron's whole shpiel seemed incredibly self serving an unnecessary. I don't begrudge him for choosing Miami, I begrudge him for making himself bigger than the Heat and the league.

Sure Durant went the more standard way of announcing his extension, but what if he had the level of Lebron's superstar status? Who knows if he would've done the same thing. And ESPN hadn't covered Durant at all this whole free agency off season. LBJ knew that this would be a way to capitalize on his status. He didn't ask for his status in the league, ESPN and his fans gave it to him after he MVP'd twice. Who turns down attention when the world showers it on you? He's barely old enough to drink legally, let's think about that, a pretty young dude overall who has a sizable ego-shell.

I think Lebron is getting a lot of well-deserved crap right now, but he's also getting a lot of crap from hypocrites that would've been jumping in circles if he had picked them (not that you are one, just speaking generally). Nobody likes the feeling of being not picked, especially so publicly. The media is tearing Lebron a new one because its fashionable right now. If LBJ had picked anywhere else, how would this have played out...

CDu
07-09-2010, 08:18 AM
As a Bulls fan I'm obviously disappointed that James didn't go to Chicago. I think that the Bulls actually offered him a better chance at titles than the Heat (especially with Rose becoming a star and better depth). But, I can't begrudge him going to play with a couple of stars and good friends.

Legacy-wise, I think this was not the best decision for James. I do think he'll now become the ARod of the NBA (had to jump on board a "stacked team" and play ARod to Wade's Jeter, and can't win on his own). That's the impression I've gotten from everything I've seen and most everyone I've talked to except for a few folks here (some of whom are Miami fans).

But, perhaps he doesn't care as much about his legacy, and just cares about trying to win championships while playing with friends. While I believe that the Bulls offered a better fit for winning championships, they didn't offer the chance to play with good friends Wade and Bosh. Perhaps that made a huge difference. And who knows? Maybe people will move on and change their opinions about James in a way that they didn't do for ARod.

This offseason has been interesting. Both the Bulls and the Heat took big steps forward this offseason. I'm sure the Magic will try to make some moves as well. There should be a slew of teams ready to give the Lakers a run for the title next year.

UrinalCake
07-09-2010, 09:12 AM
So I'm a little confused... a lot of people (everywhere, not just on this board) are criticizing LeBron for going to a team with two other superstars rather than building a championship team around himself like Jordan and Kobe did. But those same people claim that Chicago would have given him the best chance at winning. So wouldn't going to Chicago have actually been the cop-out move?

My personal opinion is that he chose Miami because it would be the most fun. Playing with two of his buddies in South Beach, who wouldn't want that? He's never had the college experience, and in a way this will give him that. He's never even had the college recruitment experience, which I think was part of the reason for the spectacle we saw last night. He's had to carry the weight of a franchise his whole career, and being in Miami means he won't have to do that. I really can't blame him.

BlueandWhite
07-09-2010, 09:14 AM
(1) I am admittedly unhappy LeBron chose Miami, if just for the competition. I would have preferred to see him in Chicago, Cle, NJ or NY.

(2) I think Kevin Durant handled himself much better with his contract situation. A simple tweet to his fans that he was staying put. LeBron's whole shpiel seemed incredibly self serving an unnecessary. I don't begrudge him for choosing Miami, I begrudge him for making himself bigger than the Heat and the league.

LeBron could have made everything so simple last night, by saying just four words after announcing his decision to play with Miami:

"It's all about me."

That's all that he needed to say. Because, in LeBron's mind it is, ultimately, all about him and he wanted everyone to know it.

(Just one little problem, LeBron, is that you're not even the best player in the NBA - Kobe is).

This is even MORE reason to completely ignore the NBA and focus on college hoops! What a bunch of nonsense. Having said that, it's be great to see OKC play Miami in the final one of the next couple of years and Durant take his team to the title.

mkirsh
07-09-2010, 09:16 AM
It will be really interesting to see if the Heat can win a title with 3 max guys and 9 min guys. If so it probably changes the way the league approaches free agency in the future with more of a haves and have-nots group squeezing the middle tier players. I have my doubts though - can this team beat the Lakers (Kobe-Artest-Gasol matched up with Wade-LeBron-Bosh, plus the Lakers have Bynum and Odom?)? I still take the Lakers (if Phil Jackson returns) for next year and a potential 4-peat after that. Can this team even beat the Celtics or Magic?

The Heat should sign Zoubs and Lance - 2 guys who know how to support a "big 3" and win a title.

Lebron should change his nickname to "Prince James" to Wade's "King Wade"

Poor Cleveland. I have no dog in this fight (Wizards fan, have my own problems to worry about), but I feel bad for all Clevelanders. It's one thing to have him leave, but it's another to have him rub it in your face for 60 minutes on ESPN. The city now falls back into sports dispair, as the remaining Cavs are a collection of spare parts with limited ability to contend (do they win 25 games next year?), and the Browns and Indians are still the Browns and Indians.

cspan37421
07-09-2010, 09:16 AM
The important thing though, for DBR, is this: will JJ's Selection Special be on "the Ocho"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50jVa25gmWs

A-Tex Devil
07-09-2010, 09:26 AM
- LeBron's "show" last night was ridiculous narcissistic self promotion even if it was for charity.

- Dan Gilbert showed his ... in that tirade. Poor form from an NBA owner

- Cleveland has had 5-7 years to get this thing right and they never could. Whether it be Mike Brown having no idea how to match his personnel to the other team's from game to game (e.g. his overplay of Shaq in this year's playoffs) or our own Danny Ferry (who wasn't as bad as some say, but still made several questionable moves).

- LeBron was weighing loyalty and home vs. friends, a better shot at championships and a near unlimited ceiling for a team -- and took less money for the latter. He had a choice to make and it wasn't a bad one. Cleveland fans have a right to be hurt, but looking objectively (which I understand they can't), it's not backstab.

- OKC will be the best team in the league in 2-3 years. Mark it down.

Edited to add --- John Scheyer's shot at making a team just rose significantly.

theAlaskanBear
07-09-2010, 09:33 AM
LeBron could have made everything so simple last night, by saying just four words after announcing his decision to play with Miami:

"It's all about me."

That's all that he needed to say. Because, in LeBron's mind it is, ultimately, all about him and he wanted everyone to know it.

(Just one little problem, LeBron, is that you're not even the best player in the NBA - Kobe is).

This is even MORE reason to completely ignore the NBA and focus on college hoops! What a bunch of nonsense. Having said that, it's be great to see OKC play Miami in the final one of the next couple of years and Durant take his team to the title.

Two things: If it was all all about LeBron why would he go to Miami and share the spotlight, rather than NYC where he would be a god? He is going to WIN championships -- you know, the thing everyone tells him he has to do.

There is no way to rationally prove that Kobe is better than LeBron, especially statistically. James doesn't have titles, but he also didnt walk into a team with Shaq and Phil to win championships. He is also better at hitting game-winning shots and in the 4th quarter.

Yeah sure the ESPN special was a mistake, but big deal, everyone makes mistakes.

jjh1080
07-09-2010, 10:26 AM
To say we all make mistakes is pretty general.

In the heat of a fast past game on throws up a shot that is ill advised is one type of mistake but to make a mistake that is long planned out, for months is another thing.

Yes these players are growing up with ESPN and their tabloid way of doing things but is that right, is that they way we want things done?

People had issues with the way Barnes made his announcement and this was about 100 times over that.

The problem is if Barnes was wrong or Lebron was wrong in doing what they did, it really comes down to our fault, in general. The reason why they did what they did was because it sells. If no one watches it then it doesn't sell and no one will do it again.

IMO, what happened last night was nothing more than what the tabloids do, and that is sell crap that people buy. Fortunately I watched the MLL all-star game on ESPN2 and found that more interesting then what Lebron was doing.

I will try to be the first one to send Lebron a twitter when Cleveland wins a title.

The biggest question about this is what will it do to the NBA? Will they loose fans over this? Everyone following any team other than LA, Boston or the Heat know their teams don't have a chance to win it all. Thus, will the occasional fan by-pass on going to a game if it doesn't include the Heat? Will they by-pass a jersey because it isn't a Heat jersey?

MulletMan
07-09-2010, 10:29 AM
There is no way to rationally prove that Kobe is better than LeBron, especially statistically. James doesn't have titles, but he also didnt walk into a team with Shaq and Phil to win championships. He is also better at hitting game-winning shots and in the 4th quarter.



Right... he had to walk, well, actually run in the middle of the night, to a team with Dwade and Bosh. And for the record, Kobe was acquired by the Lakers, who already had Shaq, and it took them 4 years to put all the pieces together. And I think, maybe, Kobe's won some titles without Shaq. Sorry, I think that the second half of this season showed that Kobe is STILL the best player in the NBA.

Look, I think its fair to say (as someone born and raised in Cleveland) that the city was going to be upset with Lebron going anywhere. The public spectacle... well, I don't see anyone saying, "Man... smart move there LBJ." Let's also remember that this is a guy who in one breath said, "I'm leaving, but I'm a truly loyal person."

Gilbert was over the top. He was hurt, and that letter wreaks of something else underlying the anger there. Did LBJ's camp send a little misinformation the Cavs way? I think maybe...

The Cavs did a good job of building a decent team up around Lebron. They brought in a better coach, and if you don't think that Chris Paul was on his way to Cleveland in the next couple of years, then you're kind of short sighted.

The fact is that Lebron took the easy way out last night. Do you think Jordan ever thought about leaving the Bulls when they were fighting every year to try to beat the Pistons in the Eastern Conference Finals? Do you think Magic was ever going to call up Bird and Isaiah and say, "Hey... let's hook up in LA and rule the league!"? Do you think that in any of the lean years in Houston, between 1986 and 1994 Hakeem thought, "Man, if I bolted this hell hole and abandoned all my fans from my college days, I could easily win a title in a place like Utah with Karl Malone and Stockton."? No. No, those guys never thought that way. And that's why they are all-timers. They were cornerstones of championship teams. They built teams through hard work and sacrifice and suffering. Does anybody remember the beatings that Jordan took from the Pistons? Do you remember the elation when he won the first title over the Lakers? Lebron will never know that feeling.

Jim Grey asked him last night if it would be sweeter to win a title in Cleveland or in Miami. He replied, "Championships are championships." BS, Bron-Bron. That canned answer told me that he knew it'd be sweeter to win it in Cleveland and to build something by himself in his home town... he just doesn't have the testicular fortitude. He wants to got to South Beach and play with his buddies and stroll to a title.

And that, friends, is why he just threw away his status at being considered one of the true greats of the game. Jordan. Bird. Russel. Magic. Kobe. Isaiah. West. Baylor.

James doesn't get onto that tier now. He doesn't have the drive. He wants it handed to him. Enjoy it, I guess. I'm sure that the millions of dollars and the women in South Beach will make it easier to stomach the regret. Oh... has anyone thought about what it would be like if they DON'T win an NBA title together? Just wondering....

greybeard
07-09-2010, 10:29 AM
I was disappointed with the choice but I'm not LeBron. Several things strike me in stepping back.

If you're LeBron, who do you hang with? In Miami, there is DWade, Bosh, and more importantly perhaps, Alonzo who can introduce you to the LA West crowd. Maybe among those type people, LeBron gets to be more "normal" by hanging with the abnormally rich, beautiful, talented and accomplished, to whom LeBron becomes more one of the guys. Weather's nice, lots of people enjoy their toys, and you have access to the International crowd of high rolling/beautiful people drawn to South Beach.

Cleveland-south Beach? Any of us chose Cleveland?

If you're LeBron, maybe you understand that there might be something lacking in your education, in your development, that will help with the pressures of winning or NOT winning championships that only a few could possibly help you learn point you in a direction that might prove fruitful. Again, people like Alonzo and Riley do not grow on trees, certainly not in Cleveland, nor in Chicago (now that Phil ain't there), nor in NY.

Pure basketball, I don't get it unless these guys, Wade, LeBron, and Bosh, see the possibility of professional basketball's taking a whole other direction and they are positioning themselves to be players, or should I say owners, and maybe not just when they retire.

It strikes me that there might be some unusual opportunities that open up should there be a lockout that did not exist a week ago. We'll see but I do not see these three guys living without basketball and a pay check just because David leads the owners to an imperious act, all too common in today's economic world in the US nowadays, of locking out human beings the same way you lock up your bike or car. Who knows, we might hear and see from South Beach, "Say what, David?" Might be interesting.

In the meantime, except among the 5-10 year old crowd, I can't see anybody buying LeBron, Wade, and Bosh jerseys or rooting for Miami, except if they are going there for a bit of sun and fun and root for both. I think that the fact that they (Miami) sought to buy the pot and then call the rest of the league its "competition" is unseemly, which is not to say that I think that Miami wins it all in a breeze, cause I don't. It's just that the whole thing took another step away from what makes sport worth rooting about is all, and that is a sad thing from my point of view.

Pat, the tough guy from upstate NY, transformed into a mover and shaker like Cecil B., "we hardly knew ya," man, we hardly knew ya.

ncexnyc
07-09-2010, 10:33 AM
As a Knicks fan I’m disappointed we didn’t land LeBron. We’ve gutted our team these past few years for the sole purpose of landing him and/or Wade. This didn’t happen so we’ve got to move on. The last time I checked, the NBA is a business and a very big one at that with global appeal.
A lot of people want to blast LeBron for, “The Decision”, but yet a lot watched. As most things in life, with someone who is major celebrity like LeBron, some people will question his motives and the methods. This is only natural.

If we celebrate Kyle for returning for his Senior year, because, “College is fun”, and it’s what he wants to do, then why is it so hard for some people to accept the fact that LeBron wants to have fun by playing with his friends?

As for the Gilbert tirade. None of us know what was said behind closed doors. Maybe he was led to believe LeBron was indeed staying in Cleveland, maybe he misread the situation, or maybe he feels that he’s got an open mic and is speaking for the people of Cleveland. I do know the guy has tried to build a team around LeBron and while some of the moves didn’t pan out an honest effort was made.

CDu
07-09-2010, 10:33 AM
So I'm a little confused... a lot of people (everywhere, not just on this board) are criticizing LeBron for going to a team with two other superstars rather than building a championship team around himself like Jordan and Kobe did. But those same people claim that Chicago would have given him the best chance at winning. So wouldn't going to Chicago have actually been the cop-out move?

My personal opinion is that he chose Miami because it would be the most fun. Playing with two of his buddies in South Beach, who wouldn't want that? He's never had the college experience, and in a way this will give him that. He's never even had the college recruitment experience, which I think was part of the reason for the spectacle we saw last night. He's had to carry the weight of a franchise his whole career, and being in Miami means he won't have to do that. I really can't blame him.

Yes, it's a bit of a paradox. The media is blasting James for choosing the cop-out move and going to Miami. Had he gone to Chicago, he'd have gotten backlash, but not nearly as much. Which is strange, because he'd likely be going to a better team in Chicago.

For the record, I don't think it's the same people bashing him for taking a cop-out move and saying he should have gone to Chicago. I think the people complaining that it's a cop-out move said he should have either stayed in Cleveland or gone to New Jersey (or maybe even New York).

Personally, I think both Miami and Chicago were "cop-out" moves in terms of legacy, though the media and general public probably (incorrectly) see Miami as the bigger cop-out. But I agree that the choice of Miami had less to do with which team gives him the best shot at a title and more to do with which team gives him a great shot at winning a title while offering a lot of fun. As you noted, he gets to play with his friends, he gets to hang out in South Beach, and he gets income tax relief by living/working in Florida. And he doesn't have as much pressure squarely on his shoulders anymore.

mr. synellinden
07-09-2010, 10:37 AM
Some people have touched on this, but I think the most important outcome from this whole free agency fiasco/televised announcement is that Kevin Durant, and not James, is about to become THE superstar in the NBA. And I agree with the poster that OKC will be the dominant team in the NBA within 2 years - just as the Lakers dynasty is dying. The torch is going to be passed from Kobe to Durant, and James is just going to be a first team NBA footnote. I predict that Miami wins no titles during the life of these max contracts.

CDu
07-09-2010, 10:40 AM
Right... he had to walk, well, actually run in the middle of the night, to a team with Dwade and Bosh. And for the record, Kobe was acquired by the Lakers, who already had Shaq, and it took them 4 years to put all the pieces together. And I think, maybe, Kobe's won some titles without Shaq. Sorry, I think that the second half of this season showed that Kobe is STILL the best player in the NBA.

I don't disagree with your point about James's legacy (in fact, I completely agree). But I do disagree with your argument that Bryant is the best player in the NBA.

Bryant is certainly one of the 2-3 best players in the NBA, and has been for a decade. But I think James is a slightly better player. The titles argument is a moot argument. Bryant has had much better players around him for all of his titles. Bryant has had the good fortune to play in his prime with the most dominant big man in the game and a good supporting cast. And in the latter part of his prime, he had the good fortune of having the most skilled big man in the game, another talented big man, an incredibly versatile forward who can be a star when he wants to be.

The combination of Gasol/Odom/Bynum inside is a huge key. Switch Bryant and LeBron and the Lakers still win the last two championships. Put Bryant in Cleveland, and he has no titles.

mph
07-09-2010, 11:01 AM
Well, aside from the additional $30 million he could have gotten by staying in Cleveland.

He took $30 million less to choose new teammates who he believes will give him the best chance to win a championship for his own reasons. It's not like he's taking less money out of loyalty to the city of Miami, where he's never lived, or the Heat organization, for whom he's never worked. Had LeBron decided to come back to Cleveland for less than a max contract in an effort to help the organization bring in more talent, you could argue that he was motivated by loyalty to his city, organization, or team. As it is, LeBron was loyal to LeBron. Again, his decision doesn't make him unusually self centered, but the fact he chose a pay cut does not mitigate the vanity he displayed in managing the process.

Orange&BlackSheep
07-09-2010, 11:09 AM
Can someone explain how Lebron's actions are worse than what the Lakers did gettnig Gasol or what the Celtics did bringing in Garnett and Ray Allen? Is it because he made the choice not a GM? I am trying to understand the moral difference between an all-star coming to your team that puts you over the top (Lakers) vs the all-star leaving his team to join all-stars.

Duvall
07-09-2010, 11:10 AM
He took $30 million less to choose new teammates who he believes will give him the best chance to win a championship for his own reasons. It's not like he's taking less money out of loyalty to the city of Miami, where he's never lived, or the Heat organization, for whom he's never worked. Had LeBron decided to come back to Cleveland for less than a max contract in an effort to help the organization bring in more talent, you could argue that he was motivated by loyalty to his city, organization, or team.

Well, you could argue that, but it wouldn't make much sense. How is taking less money in Miami to join a team with more talent that will help him a championship any different from taking less money in Cleveland to allow the team to add more talent to help him win a championship? It's the same action, taken to achieve the same result. The only difference is how you feel about it, and that's not very convincing.

SoCalDukeFan
07-09-2010, 11:29 AM
What on Earth does this mean? Are you suggesting that there's something wrong with players getting to choose where they play?

With free agency control is with the players, not the league, not the owners. Teams can try to keep a player with money, long term contracts (which is really also money), and intangibles (which are hard to measure and provide.) NBA players who start for 7 years and are prudent with their money make more than they will ever need. Players like LeBron make more than generations of his offspring will ever need.

So money no longer works. And you can have success in the NBA with a small number of players. So if a group of say 3 want to get together and structure their contracts together then they dictate where they play. They can also dictate for whom they play (the Heat coach better be careful.)

Lets suppose that the Heat's season is disappointing next year and there is a free agent who looks like the guy to bring a ring to Miami. Can't LeBron, Dwayne, and Chris redo their contracts, take cuts, and provide cap space to bring in a fourth star.

Some think that there is a close relationship between LeBron, Calipari, and college basketball recruiting. What if LeBron's people tell a kid, go to Kentucky for a year, go to the NBA, sign with LeBron's marketing company, and then after 4 years become a free agent and LeBron will restructure contracts and you can get a ring.

I thought there had to be something wrong with the NBA when it means sense for a team to trade Pau Gasol for Kwame Brown. I don't care much for the NBA and watch it to see former Duke players, because my wife watches it, and because most of my friends will be talking about the Lakers.

I really have no problem with LeBron playing where he want to play. I thought yesterday's biggest jerk was Dan Gilbert. I do think that in the NBA the players are in control.

SoCal

toooskies
07-09-2010, 11:34 AM
He didn't throw away $30 million. He'll get $20 million of that back just so long as he's healthy after his current contract. (Wade and Bosh are less likely, as Wade is older and Bosh is much less talented.) He'll make money from endorsements which he wouldn't have gotten being Cleveland's hero.

But he proved a lot of things:
- He values titles for their own sake. A team that can underachieve and still win a title is better to be on than a team that fulfills its destiny and wins, or a team that overachieves. Or, a person who wins a $20 million dollar lottery is more successful than a person who builds a $10 million dollar company from scratch.
- He doesn't value the adoration of Cavs fans. He's not even going to be the top superstar on the team, as Wade's home-court advantage here means that LeBron needs to exceed Wade's talents, clearly, to be the superstar there. He's not the King in his new town.
- He isn't a hero. He's at best neutral, a "businessman" making the best decision to acquire what he values most. In most peoples' eyes, he did the most villainous thing he could do. He took the easy option. He isn't out to win a championship, he's out to be handed championships because of the strength of his teammates (and not his own).

DevilHorns
07-09-2010, 11:49 AM
He didn't throw away $30 million. He'll get $20 million of that back just so long as he's healthy after his current contract. (Wade and Bosh are less likely, as Wade is older and Bosh is much less talented.) He'll make money from endorsements which he wouldn't have gotten being Cleveland's hero.

But he proved a lot of things:
- He values titles for their own sake. A team that can underachieve and still win a title is better to be on than a team that fulfills its destiny and wins, or a team that overachieves. Or, a person who wins a $20 million dollar lottery is more successful than a person who builds a $10 million dollar company from scratch.
- He doesn't value the adoration of Cavs fans. He's not even going to be the top superstar on the team, as Wade's home-court advantage here means that LeBron needs to exceed Wade's talents, clearly, to be the superstar there. He's not the King in his new town.
- He isn't a hero. He's at best neutral, a "businessman" making the best decision to acquire what he values most. In most peoples' eyes, he did the most villainous thing he could do. He took the easy option. He isn't out to win a championship, he's out to be handed championships because of the strength of his teammates (and not his own).

Nobody is going to be handing Lebron a championship. You can make the same claim for any player that switches teams during free agency. Look at Ray Allen and KG. Were they handed a championship when they won a few years back and joined Pierce? They relied on the new team's strengths. Thats true in any case.

And if you think Miami will not worship Lebron then you are sorely mistaken. When Shaq came a few years back Shaq jerseys became the most sold NBA jersey in the league at the time. I am certain Miami fans will embrace Lebron and not have any issue splitting their grown adoration for Wade. It's not like no other team in the history of sport ever had multiple stars.

The Heat will be hated by everyone in the league, thats for sure. I feel bad for Cleveland and the whole way this thing played out for them, but at the same time, I believe half of the fault rests on the team management. Lebron is easy to hate right now, but IMO, the Cavs should have had a championship right now if they had made the right front office decisions with the MVP they have in LBJ. To me this signals that LBJ didnt feel confident in the Cavs' front office.

MulletMan
07-09-2010, 11:52 AM
I don't disagree with your point about James's legacy (in fact, I completely agree). But I do disagree with your argument that Bryant is the best player in the NBA.

Bryant is certainly one of the 2-3 best players in the NBA, and has been for a decade. But I think James is a slightly better player. The titles argument is a moot argument. Bryant has had much better players around him for all of his titles. Bryant has had the good fortune to play in his prime with the most dominant big man in the game and a good supporting cast. And in the latter part of his prime, he had the good fortune of having the most skilled big man in the game, another talented big man, an incredibly versatile forward who can be a star when he wants to be.

The combination of Gasol/Odom/Bynum inside is a huge key. Switch Bryant and LeBron and the Lakers still win the last two championships. Put Bryant in Cleveland, and he has no titles.

I agree that the post presence in LA is a huge key. I would, however, argue that Bynum would be an after thought if Lebron played for the Lakers. I think that big centers aren't compatible with his game. Flank him with Gasol and Odom, well that's a recipie for success... I'm clearly splitting hairs, though.

Is there actually a way to statistically say who's better? I'm sure there is, but I suppose that all stats come with the caveat that those stats might also reflect who is surrounding you on the court (see Paulus, Greg; freshman year A:TO ratio vs. other years A:TO ratio). I think that what I'm basing my statement on is the eye test. And remember, up until about a month ago, I was a big Lebron fan. But I came to the realization that Kobe was still a better player than Lebron. His outside game is more refined, and he is able to adapt to the way an individual game is flowing. Lebron, on the other hand, needs to be able to impose his will on the game. If he can't (isn't getting calls driving to the hole, outside shot's not falling, etc.) he has a tendency to disappear. Kobe makes his teammates better (case in point: Odom). Lebron.... ehhh....not so much.

I don't know. I think its still
1. Kobe
2. Lebron
3. Wade
4. Durant
5. Carmelo

mph
07-09-2010, 11:54 AM
Well, you could argue that, but it wouldn't make much sense. How is taking less money in Miami to join a team with more talent that will help him a championship any different from taking less money in Cleveland to allow the team to add more talent to help him win a championship? It's the same action, taken to achieve the same result. The only difference is how you feel about it, and that's not very convincing.

If he takes less money with Cleveland you could plausibly make the argument that he's at least partially motivated out of loyalty to his hometown. Either way, you're hung up on a detail that has little to do with the point. Some people argued that LeBron acted like a prima donna throughout the free agent process, culminating in the self-love fest of last night. You implied (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=420344&postcount=120) that LeBron's decision was somehow made less selfish by virtue of the fact he took less money to go to Miami and win championships.


I hope everyone is as outraged as I am by this selfish professional athlete that has chosen to take less money in exchange for a chance to win a team championship.

I responded that taking less money is not evidence of selflessness--it is more likely just a sign that he wants other things more than money. Given the context, a likely list of those things would include, legacy, prestige, self-satisfaction, and fun. None of these things qualify as selfless.

Which leads us back to the original, and as of yet unanswered, point. The way LeBron managed the process was narcissistic and disrespectful. He could have made the exact same decision in a way that demonstrated more concern for his hometown and less concern for his ESPN facetime.

rhcpflea99
07-09-2010, 11:55 AM
Can someone explain how Lebron's actions are worse than what the Lakers did gettnig Gasol or what the Celtics did bringing in Garnett and Ray Allen? Is it because he made the choice not a GM? I am trying to understand the moral difference between an all-star coming to your team that puts you over the top (Lakers) vs the all-star leaving his team to join all-stars.

KG, Ray, Gasol played on horrible/medicore teams. LeBron & Cavs had the leagues best record.

MulletMan
07-09-2010, 12:03 PM
Lebron is easy to hate right now, but IMO, the Cavs should have had a championship right now if they had made the right front office decisions with the MVP they have in LBJ. To me this signals that LBJ didnt feel confident in the Cavs' front office.

Please. The Cavs have gotten better every year that Lebron was there. What would the right move have been? Trading Hickson to get Stoudamire last season when Phoenix demanded that he be included in a trade? They'd be out two superstars and a future building block if they'd done that. Byron Scott was a coaching upgrade from Mike Brown, and CP3 was probably on the way via trade or free agency.

I'd love to know what the "right front office decisions" would have been.

Look, its fine that you're a Heat fan and kudos to you on your 4 man team, but rationalizing what a D-bag Lebron was in this whole thing by saying he wasn't really doing anything all that bad is simply you trying to convince yourself that it's OK to root for someone who just flipped the bird to an entire group of people that he claimed to care for and be loyal to. Just because you post over and over that what he did was justified, doesn't make it true.

MisterRoddy
07-09-2010, 12:07 PM
I feel bad for Cleveland as much as the next guy, but let's face it; a good portion of their fans were Lebron bandwagoners anyway. I only feel bad for the real Cavalier fans, the guys that were there before Lebron James.

DevilHorns
07-09-2010, 12:08 PM
Which leads us back to the original, and as of yet unanswered, point. The way LeBron managed the process was narcissistic and disrespectful. He could have made the exact same decision in a way that demonstrated more concern for his hometown and less concern for his ESPN facetime.

Agreed 100%. I do have to say though, if he had picked Cleveland, nobody in Cleveland would be hating on him even though he would still have been the same egomaniac that he is. The decision hurts because he didn't pick Cleveland, but now those are coming out of the woodwork to bash him.

Same with HashwnBwns. If he had picked us over UNC, I still would've looked cross-eyed and questioned how he managed the whole thing. The character shining through is there regardless of who he picks.

For LBJ, I think people are blinded by their own emotions regarding him. LBJ has always sorta been like this. Before he was simply Cleveland's self-centered primadonna.... now he just is a self-centered primadonna.... so I guess its ok to bash him now.

DevilHorns
07-09-2010, 12:18 PM
Please. The Cavs have gotten better every year that Lebron was there. What would the right move have been? Trading Hickson to get Stoudamire last season when Phoenix demanded that he be included in a trade? They'd be out two superstars and a future building block if they'd done that. Byron Scott was a coaching upgrade from Mike Brown, and CP3 was probably on the way via trade or free agency.

I'd love to know what the "right front office decisions" would have been.

Look, its fine that you're a Heat fan and kudos to you on your 4 man team, but rationalizing what a D-bag Lebron was in this whole thing by saying he wasn't really doing anything all that bad is simply you trying to convince yourself that it's OK to root for someone who just flipped the bird to an entire group of people that he claimed to care for and be loyal to. Just because you post over and over that what he did was justified, doesn't make it true.

They should have gotten rid of Mike Brown years ago. He was absolute crap on the sidelines. Shaq was a mistake. Jamison had no post-season credentials, but I thought was a good idea. If they couldn't acquire the right players, then management did a bad job with the salary cap and thinking creatively with trades. And, given Gilbert's letter, it seems that he hasn't had a good relationship with the front office for a while.

And I'm sorry you're sour about this, but this is the NBA. If Wade would've went to the Bulls I am sure Heat fans would have been all up in arms and pissed off. Personally I honestly wouldn't have been. Why? This is a business. There is no loyalty in professional sports, or if there is, its incredibly rare and usually there only because of championship success.

And please read my posts carefully if you think I am blindly defending Lebron. I think he definitely didn't need this over-the-top special.

Also, if you don't want to see my posts, block me.

SoCalDukeFan
07-09-2010, 12:34 PM
LeBron seems to be getting a lot of "heat" over the way he made his announcement and what he announced.

The former problem is as much our problem as his. What were the ratings for "The Decision?" If no one watched then they wouldn't air these shows. Secondly, was he supposed to tell Dan Gilbert first? Maybe he should have just sent out a tweet.

I am sure that Ernie Banks is loved by Cubs fans everywhere. He does not have a ring. LeBron wants one. What he did is easy to understand.

SoCal

Duvall
07-09-2010, 12:50 PM
If he takes less money with Cleveland you could plausibly make the argument that he's at least partially motivated out of loyalty to his hometown.

And you could plausibly argue that James is taking less money to helps his friends carry out their plan to build a super-team. I'm not sure it helps much to establish that James looks worse if you assume the worst motives in one case and the best motives in another.


Either way, you're hung up on a detail that has little to do with the point. Some people argued that LeBron acted like a prima donna throughout the free agent process, culminating in the self-love fest of last night.

That's your point. It happens to be one about which I don't care very much. People worry too much about image and not nearly enough about reality. If you want to denounce the imagery of a lengthy television interview, go right ahead.


You implied (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=420344&postcount=120) that LeBron's decision was somehow made less selfish by virtue of the fact he took less money to go to Miami and win championships.

I responded that taking less money is not evidence of selflessness--it is more likely just a sign that he wants other things more than money. Given the context, a likely list of those things would include, legacy, prestige, self-satisfaction, and fun. None of these things qualify as selfless.

But in sports, wanting things other than money is usually defined as selflessness, even when that doesn't make sense. Pursuit of the things you mentioned - winning, legacy, reputation, championships - is generally regarded as unselfish by people that comment on sports, with pursuit of money being considered the opposite, even though all of those things provide pleasure and satisfaction to a player. A player that sacrifices his own stats and glory to help the team win is considered selfless, even though most players also enjoy being part of winning teams. It's an odd little culture, but usually a consistent one.

But in this case, and just in this case, it hasn't been. I found that odd, and noted as much.

ncexnyc
07-09-2010, 12:52 PM
Lots of Haterade being spilled this morning. Maybe Coach K can get an honorary Duke degree for LBJ and present it to him the next time they meet. The guy is as popular right now as our Basketball program is during the year and like us, most of the hate is downright unwarrented.

I took a quick peek over at IC and of course LBJ isn’t fairing any better over there. Nearly every posts mentions MJ. I guess when that cat dies they’ll mummify him and wheel him out before the crowd prior to every UNC vs Duke game.

Like others have already said, the only reason this fiasco took place, was because we the public let it happen.

gus
07-09-2010, 01:06 PM
NBA players who start for 7 years and are prudent with their money make more than they will ever need.

"Within five years of retirement, an estimated 60% of former NBA players are broke."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1153364/index.htm

prudency is a rarity among professional athletes.

MulletMan
07-09-2010, 01:14 PM
And I'm sorry you're sour about this, but this is the NBA. If Wade would've went to the Bulls I am sure Heat fans would have been all up in arms and pissed off. Personally I honestly wouldn't have been. Why? This is a business. There is no loyalty in professional sports, or if there is, its incredibly rare and usually there only because of championship success.


And yet, Lebron has talked for years, and even last night about what a loyal guy he is. Furthermore, the "Its business" thing is BS. If it was business, then he'd be in Cleveland with an extra year and $30 million. It wasn't about "business". It can't be about business AND be about him being humble and taking less money. Its one or the other. If its about pure bottom line, then he takes the $$ and stays in Cleveland. If its about wanting to win a title, then he goes to the Bulls or Heat.

So you're telling me that if Dwade had strung the possibility of leaving the Heat for 2 years and then announced on national television that he was going to sign with the Bulls, you'd have said to your self, "That's cool... it's all business."?

C'mon... people who don't even have a dog in this hunt think that Lebron acted like a petulant, egomanical, little kid. He wanted to go play with his friends and take the path of least resistance for himself. Let me be clear, I don't fault him for leaving... I fault him for the way he left, and the cowardice that he showed (no call to the Cavs, announcing on national TV, holding his show in CT... the list goes on and on).

CDu
07-09-2010, 01:25 PM
Is there actually a way to statistically say who's better? I'm sure there is, but I suppose that all stats come with the caveat that those stats might also reflect who is surrounding you on the court (see Paulus, Greg; freshman year A:TO ratio vs. other years A:TO ratio).

It would be very difficult to say objectively who is better. I can say that I disagree that Bryant is the better player, but I can't definitively prove it. They don't play exactly the same position/role, and they don't have the same set of teammates to compare against. So you're right that any attempt at an objective measure would be really fraught with assumptions.


I think that what I'm basing my statement on is the eye test. And remember, up until about a month ago, I was a big Lebron fan. But I came to the realization that Kobe was still a better player than Lebron. His outside game is more refined, and he is able to adapt to the way an individual game is flowing. Lebron, on the other hand, needs to be able to impose his will on the game. If he can't (isn't getting calls driving to the hole, outside shot's not falling, etc.) he has a tendency to disappear. Kobe makes his teammates better (case in point: Odom). Lebron.... ehhh....not so much.

I have a few quibbles here. First, I don't know that you can say that Bryant makes players better and James doesn't. And I certainly wouldn't use Odom as an example. He was a terrific (but inconsistent) player before he joined the Lakers, and he's a terrific (but inconsistent) player with the Lakers. Similarly, do you not think that James made guys like Varejao look better than they really are?

As for your breakdown of their skill sets, I don't disagree that Bryant is the more refined player and more versatile scorer. He's a better shooter and has a much more diverse array of ways to score. He is probably a better defender, too. But he's nowhere near the distributor or the rebounder, and he's not nearly as efficient as a scorer as James (in spite of his wider array of scoring skills).

A-Tex Devil
07-09-2010, 01:26 PM
Look, its fine that you're a Heat fan and kudos to you on your 4 man team, but rationalizing what a D-bag Lebron was in this whole thing by saying he wasn't really doing anything all that bad is simply you trying to convince yourself that it's OK to root for someone who just flipped the bird to an entire group of people that he claimed to care for and be loyal to.

Other than the stupid TV show, nothing LeBron did was all that bad. I don't think he flipped the bird to the fans either. The fans should be just as mad at ownership if not more so. With the changing tide in the east, next year's Cleveland team with LeBron was maybe 3rd best depending on how badly the Celtics age. Without a major signing this summer, the window for Cleveland closed -- at least for the next couple of years.

Someone on TV mentioned that Garnett talked to LeBron and said if he knew what he knows now, he wouldn't have signed that last contract with Minny. Now Minny was a lot worse than Cleveland, but like Cleveland, they failed to improve the team, and peaked. I wouldn't doubt if that talk held a lot of sway with LeBron. Control the situation while you can.

Miami wasn't just about championships or glamour either. He is going to be able to play with his friends. 3 years ago during Olympic team training, Bosh, Wade and James all signed the exact same 3 year deal. This idea of them all being on the same team isn't something that just happened in the last few months.

CDu
07-09-2010, 01:32 PM
Miami wasn't just about championships or glamour either. He is going to be able to play with his friends. 3 years ago during Olympic team training, Bosh, Wade and James all signed the exact same 3 year deal. This thing with them all being on the same team isn't something that just happened in the last few months.

I am a Bulls fan, and I don't begrudge James going to the Heat. I don't think it was the best thing for his legacy (Cleveland or New Jersey), and I don't think it was the best location for him to win a championship (Chicago). But it is an opportunity to play with friends and play for a team that could win a championship, and have less burden of carrying a championship team. And it's South Beach. Those are all fine reasons to go to Miami over the others.

However, your last paragraph suggests that there was a bit of deceit in the process. If this was decided three years ago, then why go through the dog and pony show? Why the need to make a national spectacle with the decision? Why have Wade and Bosh pretend to have interest in Chicago? Why not just make the decision to go? That's a little on the sleazy side. But that's the only beef I have with it. I agree that it's not James's debt to Cleveland to stay there. But if you've known you were going to Miami, just say that all along.

DevilHorns
07-09-2010, 01:37 PM
And yet, Lebron has talked for years, and even last night about what a loyal guy he is. Furthermore, the "Its business" thing is BS. If it was business, then he'd be in Cleveland with an extra year and $30 million. It wasn't about "business". It can't be about business AND be about him being humble and taking less money. Its one or the other. If its about pure bottom line, then he takes the $$ and stays in Cleveland. If its about wanting to win a title, then he goes to the Bulls or Heat.

So you're telling me that if Dwade had strung the possibility of leaving the Heat for 2 years and then announced on national television that he was going to sign with the Bulls, you'd have said to your self, "That's cool... it's all business."?

C'mon... people who don't even have a dog in this hunt think that Lebron acted like a petulant, egomanical, little kid. He wanted to go play with his friends and take the path of least resistance for himself. Let me be clear, I don't fault him for leaving... I fault him for the way he left, and the cowardice that he showed (no call to the Cavs, announcing on national TV, holding his show in CT... the list goes on and on).

I agree with how he left. It was ridiculous. Very immature, and as I said above, had the stench of the whole HawshunBwns skype thing.

I also think that true loyalty in professional sports is found very rarely, and I think that Lebron is just a case of that. He isn't the exception.

I do frequent Miami Heat boards and the whole "will we hate Wade?" if he went to Chicago thing has come up several times over the years.... and yes, most fans would say they wouldn't forgive him. I was in the minority thinking well if he's doing what he thinks is best for him then I think we can't fault him for it.

By virtue of not being a Cavs fan I have not really been exposed to Lebron's statements about being loyal to Cleveland and Ohio. If he has done that repeatedly in the past, then ya, I understand the sting and the entrenched sense of disloyalty a little bit more.

A-Tex Devil
07-09-2010, 01:39 PM
I am a Bulls fan, and I don't begrudge James going to the Heat. I don't think it was the best thing for his legacy (Cleveland or New Jersey), and I don't think it was the best location for him to win a championship (Chicago). But it is an opportunity to play with friends and play for a team that could win a championship, and have less burden of carrying a championship team. And it's South Beach. Those are all fine reasons to go to Miami over the others.

However, your last paragraph suggests that there was a bit of deceit in the process. If this was decided three years ago, then why go through the dog and pony show? Why the need to make a national spectacle with the decision? Why have Wade and Bosh pretend to have interest in Chicago? Why not just make the decision to go? That's a little on the sleazy side. But that's the only beef I have with it. I agree that it's not James's debt to Cleveland to stay there. But if you've known you were going to Miami, just say that all along.


I don't think it was DECIDED 3 years ago. I think they have seen this as a possibility and have discussed it for the last 3 years. Apologies if unclear.

MisterRoddy
07-09-2010, 01:39 PM
I am a Bulls fan, and I don't begrudge James going to the Heat. I don't think it was the best thing for his legacy (Cleveland or New Jersey), and I don't think it was the best location for him to win a championship (Chicago). But it is an opportunity to play with friends and play for a team that could win a championship, and have less burden of carrying a championship team. And it's South Beach. Those are all fine reasons to go to Miami over the others.

However, your last paragraph suggests that there was a bit of deceit in the process. If this was decided three years ago, then why go through the dog and pony show? Why the need to make a national spectacle with the decision? Why have Wade and Bosh pretend to have interest in Chicago? Why not just make the decision to go? That's a little on the sleazy side. But that's the only beef I have with it. I agree that it's not James's debt to Cleveland to stay there. But if you've known you were going to Miami, just say that all along.

The OP's statement claims that the idea was hatched three years ago, not that it was decided then. He really probably wasn't fully set on his decision until the morning of, which is what he said himself.

Tim1515
07-09-2010, 01:42 PM
Didn't a large portion of the proceeds from last night's "decision" go to the girls and boy's club?

I don't like the way LeBron handled things but IMO that gesture is being quickly overlooked in all of this. I don't think James did anything wrong in picking Miami. I don't think it was the right choice title wise as i personally feel Chicago put together a better roster with him...but...he has the right to make any choice he wants.

CDu
07-09-2010, 01:43 PM
The OP's statement claims that the idea was hatched three years ago, not that it was decided then. He really probably wasn't fully set on his decision until the morning of, which is what he said himself.

I highly doubt that he was really not set as of the morning of the decision. Even if he'd only thought about the idea for as much as 3 years, I doubt he waited until yesterday morning to decide.

The process has been a show all along. It may have only been decided in the last week or so, but I do suspect that the decision was made well before yesterday. And I think that all three of those guys (Wade, Bosh, and James) made way more of a drama show of it than necessary.

CDu
07-09-2010, 01:46 PM
Didn't a large portion of the proceeds from last night's "decision" go to the girls and boy's club?

I don't like the way LeBron handled things but IMO that gesture is being quickly overlooked in all of this. I don't think James did anything wrong in picking Miami. I don't think it was the right choice title wise as i personally feel Chicago put together a better roster with him...but...he has the right to make any choice he wants.

I agree with this. But there are lots of ways to raise money for charity, and they don't involve the national ego stroke approach. I completely agree with everything else you said here, though. He has every right to go to Miami, and he doesn't owe it to Cleveland to stay. I just think the situation could have been handled in a more professional manner and made less of a show.

roywhite
07-09-2010, 01:50 PM
Pretty good rip on the big production of last night's announcement: Never Has Being a Sports Fan Felt So Stupid (http://nymag.com/daily/sports/2010/07/lebron_react_never_has_being_a.html)


No, tonight, it felt like everyone involved — LeBron, ESPN, Bing, the University of Phoenix, Stuart Scott, the man who once chastised fans for having the audacity to boo, Jim freaking Gray — treated the millions of people watching like stupid, mindless consumers, empty lemmings ready to follow Sport into the abyss. Here, here are the Boys & Girls Club props. Here, here is your search engine

SmartDevil
07-09-2010, 01:54 PM
Didn't a large portion of the proceeds from last night's "decision" go to the girls and boy's club?

1. That's no excuse for the spectacle of the show (or the build-up to it).

2. Consider the source of the sponsorship money, i.e. the main sponsor of the program. I consider that money to be tainted.

MisterRoddy
07-09-2010, 01:59 PM
I highly doubt that he was really not set as of the morning of the decision. Even if he'd only thought about the idea for as much as 3 years, I doubt he waited until yesterday morning to decide.

The process has been a show all along. It may have only been decided in the last week or so, but I do suspect that the decision was made well before yesterday. And I think that all three of those guys (Wade, Bosh, and James) made way more of a drama show of it than necessary.

Yes, it probably was decided before yesterday morning, in fact, it was probably decided when the show was planned. What I'm saying is that he couldve changed his mind easily and when you think about it, it was more like he was leaning towards the Heat up until he made it official.

OK, I understand about James but what exactly did Wade/Bosh do that was so dramatic. Wade made it known he wanted to go to the Heat but when it looked like the Heat might not get what he wanted, he explored his options (like anyone else would), which is what Chris Bosh was also doing. When Bosh finally made the decision, he told Wade, who said he was in and they announce it the next day. Nothing really purposefully dramatic at all. The tweeting is nothing but a little harmless fun with the media.

CDu
07-09-2010, 02:02 PM
Yes, it probably was decided before yesterday morning, in fact, it was probably decided when the show was planned. What I'm saying is that he couldve changed his mind easily and when you think about it, it was more like he was leaning towards the Heat up until he made it official.

OK, I understand about James but what exactly did Wade/Bosh do that was so dramatic. Wade made it known he wanted to go to the Heat but when it looked like the Heat might not get what he wanted, he explored his options (like anyone else would), which is what Chris Bosh was also doing. When Bosh finally made the decision, he told Wade, who said he was in and they announce it the next day. Nothing really purposefully dramatic at all. The tweeting is nothing but a little harmless fun with the media.

I can't say for a fact on Wade and Bosh, but I firmly believe that both knew they were going to Miami weeks ago. I believe they simply went on their visit to Chicago to create simulated drama for their documentary. I have no problem with the tweeting (I don't even know what the tweeting issue is/was). I just think the dog and pony show of pretending to be interested in other teams was phony.

Wander
07-09-2010, 02:05 PM
Please. The Cavs have gotten better every year that Lebron was there. What would the right move have been? Trading Hickson to get Stoudamire last season when Phoenix demanded that he be included in a trade? They'd be out two superstars and a future building block if they'd done that. Byron Scott was a coaching upgrade from Mike Brown, and CP3 was probably on the way via trade or free agency.

I'd love to know what the "right front office decisions" would have been.


First of all, considering the Cavs made the Finals in, what, 2007, it's not a given that they've improved every year - and their general upward trend over the past seven years or whatever has been largely due to Lebron reaching his prime, not coaching or supporting casts. Second of all, the Cav's front office decisions have indeed sucked - how many aging players do they need to overpay before you become convinced of this?

I've actually thought Lebron to be pretty immature for a while now, but let's not let that cause us to make crazy statements like "he doesn't make his teammates better" (or need I remind everyone that Mo Williams actually made an all-star game?)

MisterRoddy
07-09-2010, 02:17 PM
I can't say for a fact on Wade and Bosh, but I firmly believe that both knew they were going to Miami weeks ago. I believe they simply went on their visit to Chicago to create simulated drama for their documentary. I have no problem with the tweeting (I don't even know what the tweeting issue is/was). I just think the dog and pony show of pretending to be interested in other teams was phony.

I think they had a pretty good idea what they wanted to do but were still not positive. They were simply keeping their options open by visiting the other teams, imo. By stating that they only went on with the meetings just because they needed footage for their documentary is basically stating they were lying to everyone, which I doubt they would be that deceptive. I believe once they were set and sure on their decisions, they put an end to the process.

CDu
07-09-2010, 02:24 PM
First of all, considering the Cavs made the Finals in, what, 2007, it's not a given that they've improved every year - and their general upward trend over the past seven years or whatever has been largely due to Lebron reaching his prime, not coaching or supporting casts. Second of all, the Cav's front office decisions have indeed sucked - how many aging players do they need to overpay before you become convinced of this?

I've actually thought Lebron to be pretty immature for a while now, but let's not let that cause us to make crazy statements like "he doesn't make his teammates better" (or need I remind everyone that Mo Williams actually made an all-star game?)

I couldn't agree more. The Cavs were fortunate to make the finals a few years back with a few upsets. They did get better since then in the regular season, but that's largely due to James getting better and the East getting worse (decline of Detroit and Miami, Boston's injuries). And on top of that, the team around James has plateaued and they didn't have any cap space to make improvements moving forward. It's very hard to continue to improve once you're capped out.

The Cavs made some pretty bad personnel decisions. They never got the kind of flexible players to team with James. They kept getting one-dimensional players that meant they could consistently be exploited with mismatches, while not creating many mismatch problems themselves. James made those guys better, but he wasn't enough (no single player was enough).

CDu
07-09-2010, 02:26 PM
I think they had a pretty good idea what they wanted to do but were still not positive. They were simply keeping their options open by visiting the other teams, imo. By stating that they only went on with the meetings just because they needed footage for their documentary is basically stating they were lying to everyone, which I doubt they would be that deceptive. I believe once they were set and sure on their decisions, they put an end to the process.

We just can't know for sure. It's certainly possible that they were being genuine in their interest in other teams. Maybe I'm too cynical, but I really do believe that it was mostly for the documentary and not for genuine interest. If it was indeed for genuine interest, then I don't have a problem with Wade/Bosh - just James. But obviously I don't think I'm wrong, and so I think what Bosh and Wade did was sleazy too.

Duvall
07-09-2010, 02:27 PM
2. Consider the source of the sponsorship money, i.e. the main sponsor of the program. I consider that money to be tainted.

VitaminWater?

weezie
07-09-2010, 02:32 PM
I took a quick peek over at IC and of course LBJ isn’t fairing any better over there. Nearly every posts mentions MJ. I guess when that cat dies they’ll mummify him and wheel him out before the crowd prior to every UNC vs Duke game.


Oh COOL! Great idea! Love it :D:D:D

weezie
07-09-2010, 02:33 PM
VitaminWater?

No.....the cheese! :)

Hey, anybody here ready for some football yet?!

MisterRoddy
07-09-2010, 02:41 PM
We just can't know for sure. It's certainly possible that they were being genuine in their interest in other teams. Maybe I'm too cynical, but I really do believe that it was mostly for the documentary and not for genuine interest. If it was indeed for genuine interest, then I don't have a problem with Wade/Bosh - just James. But obviously I don't think I'm wrong, and so I think what Bosh and Wade did was sleazy too.

Eh, I believe they were genuine, you believe they weren't, difference of opinions.

SoCalDukeFan
07-09-2010, 02:49 PM
Didn't a large portion of the proceeds from last night's "decision" go to the girls and boy's club?

I don't like the way LeBron handled things but IMO that gesture is being quickly overlooked in all of this. I don't think James did anything wrong in picking Miami. I don't think it was the right choice title wise as i personally feel Chicago put together a better roster with him...but...he has the right to make any choice he wants.

Evidently LeBron has friends who work(ed?) for the Cavs and more friends who travel on the team plane etc. Story is that the Bulls told LeBron that would stop, that they did not do it for Jordan and were not going to do it for him.

So bye bye North Beach and hello South Beach.

SoCal

CDu
07-09-2010, 02:55 PM
Eh, I believe they were genuine, you believe they weren't, difference of opinions.

Yup. Perhaps the difference between a Bulls fan and a Heat fan? :)

Apologies if I've mislabeled you as a Heat fan. Lots of posts have been flying around.

Acymetric
07-09-2010, 02:58 PM
Some people have touched on this, but I think the most important outcome from this whole free agency fiasco/televised announcement is that Kevin Durant, and not James, is about to become THE superstar in the NBA. And I agree with the poster that OKC will be the dominant team in the NBA within 2 years - just as the Lakers dynasty is dying. The torch is going to be passed from Kobe to Durant, and James is just going to be a first team NBA footnote. I predict that Miami wins no titles during the life of these max contracts.

I predict at least one of the 3 (possibly 2) will be gone from Miami by the time the contracts expire...my guess is before the 4th season starts at the latest. I'm just not convinced this is going to work as well as some others think...either the management will move someone because the team isn't winning like they're supposed to or someone will get disgruntled and demand to be moved.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong and they win 5 straight titles. Guess we'll see.

MisterRoddy
07-09-2010, 03:00 PM
Yup. Perhaps the difference between a Bulls fan and a Heat fan? :)

Apologies if I've mislabeled you as a Heat fan. Lots of posts have been flying around.

Haha, you labeled me correctly. I would probably go to the ends of the earth to defend Dwyane Wade.

Gthoma2a
07-09-2010, 03:02 PM
of a man who we will crush next year. Lebron pulled a move much like the biggest high school ego did.

CDu
07-09-2010, 03:07 PM
I predict at least one of the 3 (possibly 2) will be gone from Miami by the time the contracts expire...my guess is before the 4th season starts at the latest. I'm just not convinced this is going to work as well as some others think...either the management will move someone because the team isn't winning like they're supposed to or someone will get disgruntled and demand to be moved.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong and they win 5 straight titles. Guess we'll see.

I think both are certainly a possibility. If I had to guess, any rift that might develop would be between Wade and James, both of whom are high volume possession players. Bosh seems the most deferential, both in personality and in game. But over time, it might get difficult for two similar style scorers (Wade and James) to share the ball. That's where I think any rift would occur.

Of course, it could be that Bosh's deference simply means his stats take the hit while James and Wade handle all the possessions. And if Bosh is okay with that, then maybe it just might work. They still need someone to do the dirty work down low, and depth (that's assuming they did sign Mike Miller). But if they can fill in those parts and Bosh doesn't mind being a distant third party (and Wade and James can manage to share the ball on the perimeter), it could work terrifically.

jjh1080
07-09-2010, 03:42 PM
The whole, Boys and Girls club thing was smoke and mirrors. It is called spin.

The kind of money that Lebron, Wade and Bosh will be making the next five years, they could each drop $1 million on the Boys and Girls Club a year. They didn't need a stunt like that to raise money.

I'm not sure others caught this but the spin I picked up on was Lebron said "this is a business" and then he said its about "winning championships." That is clearly two different things. A business is about making money and winning a title is about making your fans happy. He won't make any more money if he wins a title. He has tons of endorsements and the only thing he has won is a high school championship.

They use the words "it's a business" to try to get themselves of the hook for making the decisions they make, to keep from looking too selfish.

MisterRoddy
07-09-2010, 03:45 PM
The whole, Boys and Girls club thing was smoke and mirrors. It is called spin.

The kind of money that Lebron, Wade and Bosh will be making the next five years, they could each drop $1 million on the Boys and Girls Club a year. They didn't need a stunt like that to raise money.

I'm not sure others caught this but the spin I picked up on was Lebron said "this is a business" and then he said its about "winning championships." That is clearly two different things. A business is about making money and winning a title is about making your fans happy. He won't make any more money if he wins a title. He has tons of endorsments and the only thing he has won is a high school championship.

They use the words "it's business" to try to get themselves of the hook for making the decisions they make, to keep from looking too selfish.

What if Lebron's "business" is winning a title? Too many definitions of the word "business" to validate your argument.

CDu
07-09-2010, 03:49 PM
The whole, Boys and Girls club thing was smoke and mirrors. It is called spin.

The kind of money that Lebron, Wade and Bosh will be making the next five years, they could each drop $1 million on the Boys and Girls Club a year. They didn't need a stunt like that to raise money.

I'm not sure others caught this but the spin I picked up on was Lebron said "this is a business" and then he said its about "winning championships." That is clearly two different things. A business is about making money and winning a title is about making your fans happy. He won't make any more money if he wins a title. He has tons of endorsements and the only thing he has won is a high school championship.

They use the words "it's a business" to try to get themselves of the hook for making the decisions they make, to keep from looking too selfish.

I agree on the charity thing. The charity thing was a cover for this being an ego trip.

As for the "it's a business" thing, I think that's just a "nothing personal, it's just business" statement. I agree that maybe it's not technically correct. But I think it's just poor wording rather than any inconsistency. I think he was saying "I don't mean this as a personal attack on Cleveland and its fans - I just felt Miami was the best fit for me and my life/career." I disagree with your statement that winning titles is about making fans happy. Winning titles is about achieving success and the joy/satisfaction of winning. I doubt very much that players think of the fans with regard to winning titles. I think they think of themselves and the pleasure/satisfaction with achieving that goal. So in that sense, I think "it's a business" and "it's about winning titles" fits much more together than you suggest.

hedevil
07-09-2010, 04:56 PM
As I have said repeatedly on every Lebron thread on this board, Lebron is an egotystical maniac, while some posters have actually defended this guy. Once again, as a Bulls fan, I am thrilled. I was rooting so hard for Miami yesterday. Man oh man, can Lebron put on a show. What a character. Anyone who is surprised by this circus (a one hour special focused on himself) hasn't been paying much attention to Lebron's career. What I love the most is that James will go down as having needed two other star players to win a title, if indeed they (Heat) ever win one.

I am loving this so much. GOOD LUCK MIAMI!! Hahahah
Finally Lebron will get the hate he deserves (via his home state). :D

superdave
07-09-2010, 05:10 PM
of a man who we will crush next year. Lebron pulled a move much like the biggest high school ego did.

Cross between Barnes lack of self-awareness and Roger Clemens inability to understand that it's more than just a business. Well, maybe not as bad as Clemens who said the steroids were his wife's.

A coworker told me today LeBron was courageous last night. I laughed out loud and told him he was an idiot. He was offended and apparently thought signing with the Heat is an act of courage. Hiding behind Dwyane Wade because you cant close out big games is not courage, it's an admission of weakness.

Super "Alright, I need to move on with my life" Dave

Duvall
07-09-2010, 05:11 PM
As I have said repeatedly on every Lebron thread on this board, Lebron is an egotystical maniac, while some posters have actually defended this guy. Once again, as a Bulls fan, I am thrilled.

As a Bulls fan, you should certainly understand the importance of having your own egotistical maniac.

jjh1080
07-09-2010, 05:18 PM
As stated, my definition of business is about making money and I believe that is what he was implying when he says "it a business." Businesses are in business to make money. Non-profits do the feel good things and that is why they are not referred to as a business, they are referred to as a non-profit.

I'm like the sport writers lead lines...

LeBron's chasing celebrity, not titles

Stop smiling, LeBron: You're not the King

How LeBron James hurt his own legacy

Error to the throne

Awful night for Cleveland, worse night for sports

LeBron James looks neither royal nor loyal

Devilsfan
07-09-2010, 05:38 PM
Props to Lebron a twenty-five year old with the ability to create huge television ratings. Maybe they're (the so called sports experts) just jealous.
If they hate the way he did his announcement why did they watch?

Greg_Newton
07-09-2010, 05:49 PM
I really don't get all the animosity towards James.

The backlash from the TV special, I get. I was all ready to watch it and hate him too. It was a narcissistic thing to do.

I have to admit though, I actually came away kind of empathizing with him. Who knows, but he seemed genuinely somber and guilt-ridden that he was leaving - I swear, I thought he was about to cry a few times. And more importantly, what gives anyone the right to cast judgment on his decision?

I mean, the guy is 25. Did any of these sportswriters not leave home by age 25? And that was somehow more acceptable because they weren't as good at what they did as Lebron?

He doesn't owe Cleveland ANYTHING. He's a professional athlete, he fulfilled his contract and carried that franchise on his back for 7 years, took it to places it had never been. Now he's signing a new contract in a more attractive city for a young person with a better team. There's nothing at all wrong with that, just like there is nothing wrong with a 25 year-old banking whiz switching companies after his initial 2-year stint.

Isn't it "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness", not "life and the pursuit of happiness within a certain radius of your hometown"? He's entitled to do what he wants. Cleveland should be proud of its native son, not disowning him. Shame on Dan Gilbert.

BobbyFan
07-09-2010, 06:16 PM
But over time, it might get difficult for two similar style scorers (Wade and James) to share the ball.

Agree here. LeBron is playing at a level that few have ever attained, and Wade has also been historically great. But because of the significant overlap in their offensive skill set, it is simply not possible for them to provide the Heat with the sum of their parts. This isn't Jordan/Pippen or Shaq/Kobe in terms of on-court compatibility.

Where they can make it up, and to me the key for the Miami next year, is defense. They won't be carrying the same burden on offense, and should have plenty of energy on reserve for the other end. It's not a coincidence that Kobe was at his peak as a defender when the Laker offense was running through Shaq. From what I've seen, LeBron has no excuse to not become a night in, night out lockdown defender. Wade I'm less sure about, but he should be very good at the least. They won't have much help behind them though, because Bosh is quite ordinary.

But meshing talent is a nice problem to have when you are working with the league's best player, a top 5 player, and a top 10 player. And it's a greater collection of talent than other hyped up groups, like Boston a few years ago, the Lakers in 2004, or Houston in 1999.

MisterRoddy
07-09-2010, 06:19 PM
As stated, my definition of business is about making money and I believe that is what he was implying when he says "it a business." Businesses are in business to make money. Non-profits do the feel good things and that is why they are not referred to as a business, they are referred to as a non-profit.

Yes, that's YOUR opinion of what he meant by business but it wouldn't make sense if that's what he was implying because he's taking a pretty hefty pay-cut. The only way he meant it that would make sense is if he defines his business in this certain situation as winning and getting titles, which is what he's repeatedly said this move is all about.

And of course Lebron would have said, "Its a non-profit..." You are getting too literal and losing track of common sense.

Mal
07-09-2010, 06:36 PM
I managed to avoid both most of the leadup hype to all of this over the last month or so and the Very Special Presentation last evening, but somehow this whole thing has still annoyed me to no end and left a bad taste in my mouth. I think we've reached the event horizon for manufactured sports news/entertainment idiocy.

Anyway, I think this decision will haunt the Lebron James longterm legacy for two reasons:

1. it makes him appear amazingly insecure about his own ability to win a championship without not one but two confirmed major stars on the court with him; and

2. it's just unsavory the way he's manipulated a roster to his own personal satisfaction through the free agency process.

I don't pretend other stars didn't/don't exert significant pressure on their coaches, GM's and owners to get what/who they want playing with them. But this is different than throwing a tantrum and demanding a trade when your team doesn't give you the supporting cast you need. It's playing GM on your own. One more reason the NBA is so messed up. I don't necessarily begrudge the players this ability to control their own destinies and exert the power they have, but it does delegitimate the ensuing success they have if it works. Jordan may have had some influence on Jerry Krause, but he wasn't running the show this way, and had to deal with the hand he was dealt and hope it worked to some extent.

In the past, the inclination has been to remove or significantly discount the lack of championships when discussing how good James is because of circumstances he couldn't control (who drafted him and the roster they stuck him with). You couldn't blame the guy for Cleveland's mistakes. Now, the inclination, at least for me, will be the 180 opposite. He's controlled the circumstances too much. This is like a sandlot baseball game where the captain of one team gets to pick the first three guys for his team before the other one even gets a selection.

It also makes me apprecriate Bryant more - instead of clamoring for more superstars to surround him, he forced the Lakers to jettison the one who got him his first couple rings so he could prove he could be the Man himself.

toooskies
07-09-2010, 06:53 PM
This is like a sandlot baseball game where the captain of one team gets to pick the first three guys for his team before the other one even gets a selection.

You do realize, of course, that the other team gets all the other selections until their roster is full.

ncexnyc
07-09-2010, 07:12 PM
It also makes me apprecriate Bryant more - instead of clamoring for more superstars to surround him, he forced the Lakers to jettison the one who got him his first couple rings so he could prove he could be the Man himself.
Surely you jest? This comment is as factual as the ones I see over at IC that claim MJ won 6 titles with a bunch of scrubs.

dukelifer
07-09-2010, 10:09 PM
I really don't get all the animosity towards James.

The backlash from the TV special, I get. I was all ready to watch it and hate him too. It was a narcissistic thing to do.

I have to admit though, I actually came away kind of empathizing with him. Who knows, but he seemed genuinely somber and guilt-ridden that he was leaving - I swear, I thought he was about to cry a few times. And more importantly, what gives anyone the right to cast judgment on his decision?

I mean, the guy is 25. Did any of these sportswriters not leave home by age 25? And that was somehow more acceptable because they weren't as good at what they did as Lebron?

He doesn't owe Cleveland ANYTHING. He's a professional athlete, he fulfilled his contract and carried that franchise on his back for 7 years, took it to places it had never been. Now he's signing a new contract in a more attractive city for a young person with a better team. There's nothing at all wrong with that, just like there is nothing wrong with a 25 year-old banking whiz switching companies after his initial 2-year stint.

Isn't it "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness", not "life and the pursuit of happiness within a certain radius of your hometown"? He's entitled to do what he wants. Cleveland should be proud of its native son, not disowning him. Shame on Dan Gilbert.

Lebron has every right to make this move and take his skills to another team. No question he did his job very well for Cleavland. The TV show- was too much, though. Be a professional, let your old team and city know and then move on. I am not sure what he or his handlers wanted to accomplish with the show. A few folks wanted to know why he promoted the boys and girls club of America from one of the most affluent cities in the country. The silliest line was that no one but a 1 or 2 people knew what he wanted to do and of course this had been leaked to everyone 10 or so hours before. Lebron made a move that will work for him and that is all fine- but he really could have handled this split much better. You live and learn.

moonpie23
07-09-2010, 10:13 PM
i am betting that Gilbert rues the day ........

DevilHorns
07-09-2010, 10:19 PM
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-heat/sfl-miami-heat-update-s070910,0,4440538.story

My local paper, the Sun Sentinel (based out of South Fla) is reporting some new updates from today:

"In a significant turn of events, the Heat completed a sign-and-trade agreement Friday night with the Cleveland Cavaliers for free-agent forward LeBron James, who already had agreed to join the Heat"

"With the sign-and-trade with Cleveland, James also received a six-year package, instead of the maximum five-year deal an outside free agent could receive. The Cavaliers also would receive a $15 million trade exception, in addition to a package of future Heat draft picks that has been reported by the Cleveland Plain Dealer as likely being two first-round picks and two second-round picks"

So looks like Dan Gilbert is all business too. If he really hated Lebron leaving and really really meant that he would bring a championship to Cleveland before Miami, he wouldn't agree to this sign-and-trade. This gives the Heat some financial flexibility, allowing them to likely snag Miller and keep Haslem.

"The Heat also plans to add Washington Wizards free-agent swingman Mike Miller. The Heat is expected to sign the former University of Florida standout to a contract in the five-year, $30 million range."

MisterRoddy
07-09-2010, 10:21 PM
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-heat/sfl-miami-heat-update-s070910,0,4440538.story

My local paper, the Sun Sentinel (based out of South Fla) is reporting some new updates from today:

"In a significant turn of events, the Heat completed a sign-and-trade agreement Friday night with the Cleveland Cavaliers for free-agent forward LeBron James, who already had agreed to join the Heat"

"With the sign-and-trade with Cleveland, James also received a six-year package, instead of the maximum five-year deal an outside free agent could receive. The Cavaliers also would receive a $15 million trade exception, in addition to a package of future Heat draft picks that has been reported by the Cleveland Plain Dealer as likely being two first-round picks and two second-round picks"

So looks like Dan Gilbert is all business too. If he really hated Lebron leaving and really really meant that he would bring a championship to Cleveland before Miami, he wouldn't agree to this sign-and-trade. This gives the Heat some financial flexibility, allowing them to likely snag Miller and keep Haslem.

"The Heat also plans to add Washington Wizards free-agent swingman Mike Miller. The Heat is expected to sign the former University of Florida standout to a contract in the five-year, $30 million range."

I swear, Pat Riley is a wizard. Pure genius.

Acymetric
07-10-2010, 01:55 AM
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-heat/sfl-miami-heat-update-s070910,0,4440538.story

My local paper, the Sun Sentinel (based out of South Fla) is reporting some new updates from today:

"In a significant turn of events, the Heat completed a sign-and-trade agreement Friday night with the Cleveland Cavaliers for free-agent forward LeBron James, who already had agreed to join the Heat"

"With the sign-and-trade with Cleveland, James also received a six-year package, instead of the maximum five-year deal an outside free agent could receive. The Cavaliers also would receive a $15 million trade exception, in addition to a package of future Heat draft picks that has been reported by the Cleveland Plain Dealer as likely being two first-round picks and two second-round picks"

So looks like Dan Gilbert is all business too. If he really hated Lebron leaving and really really meant that he would bring a championship to Cleveland before Miami, he wouldn't agree to this sign-and-trade. This gives the Heat some financial flexibility, allowing them to likely snag Miller and keep Haslem.

"The Heat also plans to add Washington Wizards free-agent swingman Mike Miller. The Heat is expected to sign the former University of Florida standout to a contract in the five-year, $30 million range."

On the other hand, at least Gilbert and the Cavs get SOMETHING from this.

Additionally, if these picks are pulled from the next two years I think it really hurts Miami, who I think could really have used those picks to fill out their roster.

Edit: Miami also sent 2 first round picks to Toronto...do they have extra picks from previous trades or are they just not planning on drafting anyone anytime soon?

DevilHorns
07-10-2010, 02:08 AM
On the other hand, at least Gilbert and the Cavs get SOMETHING from this.

Additionally, if these picks are pulled from the next two years I think it really hurts Miami, who I think could really have used those picks to fill out their roster.



Agreed on the first part.

Not on the second. The Heat need to fill out their roster NOW. This allows them to keep Haslem (which I'm sure most casual fans don't know about, but he was huge for the Heat for the first title), and go after several others (Miller looks done, matt barnes, etc). Another masterful bit of manipulation by Riley, I'm not sure how he maneuvered dealings with Cleveland after how Dan Gilbert guaranteed Lebron not getting a ring before the Cavs.

ncexnyc
07-10-2010, 08:56 AM
Smart move by the Cavs. James was gone no matter what. Anything else would have been a case of cutting off their nose, to spite their face.

SoCalDukeFan
07-10-2010, 10:26 AM
According to this, Jim Gray had the idea for "The Decision."

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-onthemedia-20100710,0,7649462.column


Longtime sports commentator Jim Gray started the log rolling. He initiated talks with James' representatives. They took the idea of a one-hour "special" to ESPN. The all-sports network agreed to pass advertising proceeds from "The Decision" to the charity of the superstar's choice.

SoCal

theAlaskanBear
07-10-2010, 10:42 AM
On the other hand, at least Gilbert and the Cavs get SOMETHING from this.

Additionally, if these picks are pulled from the next two years I think it really hurts Miami, who I think could really have used those picks to fill out their roster.

Edit: Miami also sent 2 first round picks to Toronto...do they have extra picks from previous trades or are they just not planning on drafting anyone anytime soon?

I think the reasoning is that with the Wade, James, Bosh they aren't going to have any good 1st round picks for at least 6 years...

...this also sets up Cleveland to get a lot of new talent very quickly, which, to be frank, they NEED. The only good young player they have is Hickson. This next year will be a reorganization year, where Byron Scott sees which guys he can coach up and are potentially valuable. The rest of the guys they will try to clear out for some real pieces.

Acymetric
07-10-2010, 05:56 PM
Found this in an ESPN article (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5369316) about taking down the giant mural in Cleveland, thought it was pretty funny.


In addition, Fathead.com, an online retailer owned by Cavs owner Dan Gilbert dropped the price of its LeBron Fathead wall decals from $99.99 to $17.41, which happens to be the same year Revolutionary War traitor Benedict Arnold was born.

DevilHorns
07-10-2010, 06:25 PM
Found this in an ESPN article (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5369316) about taking down the giant mural in Cleveland, thought it was pretty funny.

Haha. Gilbert is getting a little ridiculous. He's going to lose out on atrtacting future NBA FAs to Cleveland if he keeps these antics up. Nobody wants to play for a guy that may end up throwing you under the bus later. Realize I'm not saying he's not justified for being a little angry, but he's been very immature publicly.

muzikfrk75
07-11-2010, 12:04 AM
Wow at this article by Cavs's beat writer Brian Windhorst:

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2010/07/inside_the_decision_miamis_cou.html

This may have been in the works for years...