Elliot Williams recuritment

[Bob Green]

The Herald Sun article on Elliot Williams is a nice read. It sounds like Williams is a level headed young man who realizes the importance of family and education. For those who didn't read the article, checkout this quote:

"After scoring 24 points on 8-of-14 shooting Saturday, Williams named eight schools he's interested in attending: Duke, North Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, Vanderbilt, Clemson, Memphis and Georgia Tech. He plans to narrow the list as the summer progresses -- "I'm going to probably trim it down to six or five coming up soon," he said -- and make his final decision before his final season at St. George's Independent School begins."

Five of his top eight schools are from the ACC and we will not have to wait a year for his decision. I'm looking forward to tracking him over the summer.

Bob Green
Yokosuka, Japan

[Bud]

I have seen reports saying that the visit wen't great for Duke, and now Duke is one of the leaders. I think it will come down to Duke and Tenn who is considered the leader for him, it will be another dog fight.

[wbs2455]

-Elliott Williams was probably my favorite player from the weekend. He showed some of the best passing skills I saw and really seemed to have a good sense for the game. They used him as a primary ball handler for a good bit of the game I saw, but he can also play the 2 and the 3. And he can shoot it. I'd be happy to see him play many more times in Cameron.
-Indiana is getting some decent scorers in Eshaunte Jones and Bud Mackey from Blessed IJN. I wonder a little bit about the Plumlee bothers, one of whom, a rising junior, has already committed to IU while his older brother is still unsigned. The younger one was on the bench for the majority of the game I saw with his head buried in his jersey and it seemed like their coach (who was like a strange combination of chris farley's motivational speaker character and bobby knight) had broken him down mentally.
-CJ Williams, the NCState signee showed a nice touch in his midrange game in his game Saturday night. He wasn't the most agressive player on the court, but will be a solid player for state.
-Demar Derozan looks like an ACC level player. Very athletic and can get to the rim. Shame he seems to have chosen USC.
- Gus Gilchrist, who is headed to VT next year was an interesting guy to watch. He didn't play a ton of minutes on a talented DC Assault team, but he did show flashes of really strong play when he was out there as a presence around the rim. But then there were stretches where he was almost invisible and seemed mentally frustrated, particularly when he team fell behind.
-Kenny Kodji, who seems to be a florida lean could be a really nice player. Seemed to be a team leader as a big guy and has a body to be an impact player at the 5 sooner rather than later. Ray Shipman, a wing on his team, was a very agressive player who would get to the rim and score the ball when he needed to. He seems to be deciding between offers from GT, Miami, LSU, and UMiss. He could be a solid ACC guy in a few years.
-Wasn't all that impressed with the Indiana Elite guys I saw (Tyler Zeller, Emmanuel Negedu, and Deandre Liggins). Negedu, who is an Arizona signee, has quite the body on his though. You don't see many high school kids with arms his size.
-Delvon Roe looked like a nice player, but wasn't particularly agressive. I don't mind that he chose Mich State over the heels though. He's long and athletic and is certainly an ACC level wing player.
-Jordan Hamilton, a rising junior who is getting looks from a lot of schools, is going to be a good player. He's got a good body for a young kid, is athletic, can shoot it from outside, and will go to the rim. With the right coaching over the next few years, I think he can be a big time player in college.
-Georgetown is getting some solid players in Chris Braswell and Jason Clark. Neither guy I dont' think was at his best when I saw them though. Braswell never got in a rhythm against Kenny Kodji and Clark has some out of control plays down the stretch when he team needed good shots. Maurice Creek, who is a rising junior on the same team and has an offer from Maryland, had his moments, but overall was much more passive playing along side Clark.

Those are most of my thoughts from Friday/Saturday. I'd be curious to hear what others in attendance thought.

[jimsumner]

Gus Gilchrist backed out of his committment to Virginia Tech, citing the 4-16 massacre. Probably heading for prep school.

[sandinmyshoes]

It is always fun to see previously overlooked kids, like Elliot Williams and Iman Shumpert emerging. I also noticed that IC says UNC has offered the Zeller kid. I did see a youtube clip that showed him to be fairly agile and smooth but rail thin. Difficult to take much beyond that from highlight clips, since they tend to show only made shots and good plays by the subject.

[watzone]

UNC has offered Zeller, but not Williams. I really don't think they are in the rae for the latter. BTW, it is spelled Elliot.

[Bob Green]

http://www.bobgibbons.net/index.php?/weblog/article/2007_toc_live_video_stream/

There is a video of Elliot Williams' M33M team available at the above link.

Bob Green
Yokosuka, Japan

[Olympic Fan]

Just for the record, Zeller is no longer such a rail-thin guy. I know he was once listed as 6-9, 185 ... but he was listed in the Gibbons program as 7-2, 220. He's probably not quite that tall, but he's close. And he's definitely not on the skinny side -- in fact, he could stand to firm his body up a bit.

But he runs well and handles reasonably well for a 7-footer. He didn't want to mix it inside during the TOC.

[sandinmyshoes]

According to the N&O, Zeller was MVP at Gibbons. How did he pull that off? Was it just a best player on the winning team award? Even in the championship game it appears he only scored 13 to Roe's 23 or so.

[jimsumner]

If he's carrying 220 pounds on a 7'2" frame, he's skinny.

[Indoor66]

MVP is not only determined by points scored. How about rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, setting picks, etc.

[sandinmyshoes]

MVP is not only determined by points scored. How about rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, setting picks, etc.


That is a valid observation. It is also something I of which I am aware. However, here and on some other boards Zeller's play in the TOC has been described as not being particularly impressive. This made me curious how he managed to win the MVP. I was wondering if it was traditional in Gibbon's venue to give the award to the best player on the winning team. Or if perhaps Zeller was one of those players who did a lot of things well, and because of that might be overlooked by casual observers.

More specifically, I was simply wondering how he came to win the MVP.

[wbs2455]

Just to clarify, I only saw zeller play once over the weekend. Its very possible he stepped up his game during the elimination games later in the weekend.

[sandinmyshoes]

Thanks for the clarification. And to clarify on my part, there have been other reports of lackluster play on other boards. I did see a clip of his play in high school where he appeared much more willing to "mix it up" than was indicated by TOC reports. So maybe he came on later in the event. Though his 13 points to 27 for Roe seems to indicate a "to the victor goes the spoils" mentality in awarding the MVP.

[kramerbr]

I have heard very little on how Elliot's visit went other then it went pretty good. Any details or information about the visit?

[kydevil]

I have heard very little on how Elliot's visit went other then it went pretty good. Any details or information about the visit?

I have heard that it went very well for us.

[Bob Green]

With the Elliot Williams article posted on the front page, I thought I'd bump this thread back to the first page. Elliot Williams would be a great recruit to land. It sounds like his stock is really starting to rise. I'm excited that he enjoyed his visit to Duke and keeping my fingers crossed that we sign him.

This quote sums up Elliot Williams' development: “His stock has just skyrocketed,” said Bob Gibbons, a recruiting analyst for ESPN. “He’s emerged as being one of the top five players in the nation..."

Bob Green
Yokosuka, Japan

[Capn Poptart]

I'm a bit worried after reading the Daily Progress article. Elliot attended the opening game at the JPJ Arena last year, he camped in Cville and he views Dave Leitao as a father figure?

Sounds like they have to be considered one of his leaders.

Maybe we need to get Elliot to experience a game in Cameron before he makes his decision!

[duketaylor]

The older Plumlee kid just verballed to Stanford. Williams has been compared to Kenny Anderson, just two inches taller. We could certainly use him.
I think Leitao will have UVA into a top-twenty program by next year. I also think he'll be there coach for a long time.

[jimsumner]

"Maybe we need to get Elliot to experience a game in Cameron before he makes his decision!"

Be careful what you wish for. This would make Williams a spring signee.

[dwater]

"Maybe we need to get Elliot to experience a game in Cameron before he makes his decision!"

Be careful what you wish for. This would make Williams a spring signee.

Better a Duke spring signee than a UVA fall signee. :)

[SilkyJ]

"After scoring 24 points on 8-of-14 shooting Saturday, Williams named eight schools he's interested in attending: Duke, North Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, Vanderbilt, Clemson, Memphis and Georgia Tech. He plans to narrow the list as the summer progresses -- "I'm going to probably trim it down to six or five coming up soon," he said -- and make his final decision before his final season at St. George's Independent School begins."


Bob Green
Yokosuka, Japan


Better a Duke spring signee than a UVA fall signee. :)

According to Bob's quote (I didnt read the article) its moot as he plans on signing before bball season really begins

[watzone]

Elliot told me he would sign before his high school season at the NBAPA Top 100 Camp this past weekend. He will trim his list to four schools, maybe five this week. Expect them to be Virginia, Duke, Memphis and the Vols. You know where to go should you want more information.

[VaDukie]

If Memphis Tenn. and UVA are our final competition, I feel pretty good about our chances. The only thing that worries me is having Memphis and Tennessee seems to indicate that staying close to home is a big factor; Durham isn't across the country, but it is the furthest away from those schools.

Va "If we sign Elliot then a future Williams-Smith backcourt could be SCARY" Dukie

[jimsumner]

Can you imagine the angst if both Williams and Monroe are still mulling decisions come spring of '08? :)

[ACCBBallFan]

Can you imagine the angst if both Williams and Monroe are still mulling decisions come spring of '08? :)

Duke is so deep other than at PG and C and may only lose Nelson, where they still may have Henderson, and will likely have Scheyer, Pocius, Smith, King, Singler, McClure, Lance et al.

By necessity Zoubek and Lance get a chance to develop this year.

Depending on their progess, Duke may not need anyone in class of 2008, as they will be 4 year guys most likely, and everyone but Nelson probably back.

K is wise to concentrate on just a couple, and also see how Nolan progresses as a ball handler and defender, and whether King's Offense overshadows his suspected lack of defense.

They don't want to get into a position like last year with no seniors or this year with one. So keeping a few pans in the fire without using the scatter gun approach seems to make sense, and then go all out in 2009.

It puzzles me why so many board members get excited about guys with similar credentials to Zoubek or Lance (I recognize that Monroe is much higher rated than Zoubek or Lance but also understand he plays more like a perimter guy than a power guy, and may likely be one and done).

After they are the Devil you know, many set their sights on someone else with comparable metrics, rather than enjoying who they have already, who are likely to be around a few years.

In Elliot's case, how Nolan and Marty progress might ease some of the angst.

I am not saying you can ever have too much talent, just think it is too early to panic on these two 2008 guys until we see how several unknowns develop. Class of 2009 would be more important with losses of Dave, Greg, Marty and possibly Kyle and Gerald, if not before.

[Clipsfan]

If Memphis Tenn. and UVA are our final competition, I feel pretty good about our chances. The only thing that worries me is having Memphis and Tennessee seems to indicate that staying close to home is a big factor; Durham isn't across the country, but it is the furthest away from those schools.

Va "If we sign Elliot then a future Williams-Smith backcourt could be SCARY" Dukie

Memphis is actually quite a concern. It offers something completely different from Duke, and the Memphis program has been building a lot of steam recently (and will continue to do so, especially as the likely preseason #1 this year). If Monroe decides that he'd prefer a basketball factory to the Duke education, Memphis holds a lot of appeal.

[DevilAlumna]

Memphis is actually quite a concern. It offers something completely different from Duke,

Like a better style of BBQ? :D

<ducks/>

[JBDuke]

Like a better style of BBQ? :D

<ducks/>

You better duck! Them's fighin' words!!!!:eek:

[ivduke]

Noticed that he included a comment on how well the Virginaia visit went with Dave Leitao, and more importantly that Duke is not even mentioned. What gives?:confused:

[dwater]

Duke offered Elliot during the TOC when he spent 12 hours on campus with Coach K and crew.

[whereinthehellami]

Right now Scout is free until Thursday. Sorry if this is a repost but I've been having some fun reading some of the "insiders" stuff. Its funny how with some of the recruits you can tell they are playing a game with the media whereas with others they are upfront and you can actually see where they will sign (I went back and was looking at some recruits from past years).

Anyways the link below (I'm not sure if you can link to their pages or not) is of Elliot Williams and I was suprised at how candidly he spoke of liking Duke. From reading those articles, you've got to think that Duke has a very good shot with him, a good fit all around.

I'm not so sure with Greg Monroe after reading his articles. He seems to be playing things close to the vest. It almost seems like he is going out of his way to point out that Duke isn't the favorite after saying some positive things about Duke in earlier interviews. Its like someone got in his ear or something.

http://scout.scout.com/a.z?s=78&p=8&c=1&nid=2682422

[Patrick Yates]

Thanks for the heads up on the scout free trial. I plan to waste many hours tonight checking it out.

I agree with you regarding Williams. We have a good shot. Bear in mind that the interviewer was from the DevilsDen, and all those Scout sites tend to slant their coverage in a favorable light to their schools. Thus, Duke looks good.

But, I have a good feeling about Williams. Tennessee will be our major comp for this kid. If he likes pearl and K, then Calipari at Mem will be a tough sell, but they will have plenty of minutes for EW next year.

Tenn will be a tough out. Pearl is building a heck of a program, and with Lofton leaving there is an instant slot for EW in the offing.

Frankly, Duke is loaded at the position, unless GH leaves early. We have Scheyer, Paulus, and Smith at the guard next year, with GH and TK also possibilities.

Still, EW is supposedly real interested in education. I am from WNC, and my mother's family is in Knoxville, so we go over there a lot. UT has nice athletic facilites, but there is kind of a big stink in Tenn about how UT's academics have been underfunded (to the benefit of the athletic department), so that might give us a heads up.

As for Monroe, I think you are dead on.

I believe he likes Duke. Duke may even be his favorite, and he may want to come here. That doesn't mean he will come to Duke.

For Monroe, perhaps more than any other recruit in Duke's history, Basketball is literally a business for the kid. I think he is less financially secure than the vast majority of Duke athletes, and he is much higher rated with the pros than any other incoming frosh in Duke's history (keeping in mind the vastly different circumstances surrounding G Hill at the time). Even McBob, who was number 1 as a senior, had serious questions about his back that might still be lingering.

Monroe is the number 1 player. Clear cut no 1, apparantly. If I was advising a player with his rep and circumstances, I would tell him to wait until the college season was over, and then choose a high major program with need. ie A program depleted by graduation or defection. This would create a Durant like situation where GM could be the man, as opposed to merely being an important role player.

We here on this board are putting way too much emphasis on this kids emotional attachment to Duke. For GM, it is a business. He will be drafted highly, whereever he goes. (compare this to williams, a heady young player, who, IF he develops steadily, will probably be drafted, maybe in the lottery. GM is a top 3 lock from day 1) GM is playing for endorsment $, not draft worthiness, or even lottery position. The Gators just repeated as NCs and all three lottery picks combined will earn about a tenth the endorsement cash that Durant will command. So winning is nice, but not necessary.

Quit think about the next Carmelo. Kids like Monroe will want to be the next Durant. GM is in a position to be superstar. But he needs the spotlight to himself for that. Duke, as much as GM might love to be a devil, might not be the best business decision.

Commence Firing.

Patrick Yates

[Indoor66]

Can this be condensed into 1 or 2 sentences?

[kutter]

Man, we really need to land this guy. I know we're deep at that position for now, but look up in a few years and you really could be looking at no Henderson (draft), Paulus/Pocious on their way out and no real answer at PG. With K's love for the 3 guard set and EW's desire to be a 4 year guy, this is one we really need to land. I mean, when you only offer 2 guys, you kind of put pressure on yourself right? The right land could really be the difference between a decent run and a title run for us. GM is the big fish no question, but a guy like EW is a foundation piece for the future. And look at the top 50, not much there people. At least UNC isn't killing, actually, the ACC is doing all that well with the class of 08 period.

[whereinthehellami]

I was also perusing some football recruiting on Scout and was blown away by what Notre Dame is putting together. After reading their articles its amazing what Weiss is doing up there. He is literally selecting recruits. I'm not a big Notre Dame fan but they are going to be really good for as long as Weiss is there.

I know this was football related but it ties in with recruiting. Weiss really is just killing it in recruiting like I have never seeen before.

[kydevil]

I was also perusing some football recruiting on Scout and was blown away by what Notre Dame is putting together. After reading their articles its amazing what Weiss is doing up there. He is literally selecting recruits. I'm not a big Notre Dame fan but they are going to be really good for as long as Weiss is there.

I know this was football related but it ties in with recruiting. Weiss really is just killing it in recruiting like I have never seeen before.

I believe Urban Meyer may have him beat in recruiting at the moment.

[jimsumner]

I thought I knew something about how message boards work but I would never have predicted that a thread about Elliott Williams would turn into a discussion of football recruiting involving two schools that aren't even in the ACC.

Some migrations are organic. Some are not. I think this falls into category two.

[SilkyJ]

I thought I knew something about how message boards work but I would never have predicted that a thread about Elliott Williams would turn into a discussion of football recruiting involving two schools that aren't even in the ACC.

Some migrations are organic. Some are not. I think this falls into category two.

What's your point?

[Patrick Yates]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/kevin_armstrong/07/10/camp.notebook/index.html

The above is a link to a good article on Elliot Williams, who is Duke's primary (only) guard target this year. He sounds really good, and is a "Duke" type of kid with parents who are really focused on academics. I can easily see him being a 3 year guy at least.

OTOH, his game is very similiar to Nolan Smith. Smith may be more of a PG over time, and EW is more of a SG (right now), but they are both definitely Combo guards.

As much as I like this kid, he sounds a lot like NS, JS, and MP, all of whom will be on the team next year. Even if GH leaves, we have 4 players already in the guard rotation for the next year, which I can see causing the kid to think twice about Duke.

Personally, I beleive that Memphis is out, because his parents do not sound like the type of folks who will send their baby boy off to Caliperi, with his, shall we say, "tenuous relationship" with the academic progress rules.

Virginia's presence surprised me, but apparantly Leito was the first coach to really pursue EW, even before Leito went to UVA. However, unless UVA is able to corral Ed Davis, I do not see EW going to a school as talent deficient as UVA will be once Singletary is gone.

I, like some of the professional recruitniks, think the EW race has two dogs in it, Duke and Tenn. Unfortunately, Tenn is going to put up a heck of a fight for this kid. Pearl is a real hot name this year, and Tenn is a top 10 preaseaon team (ranked higer than us, sadly). Even worse, Tenn's top player is Lofton, their SG, who is a rising senior, meaning tons of PT, at EW's position, on a team that will have a solid core of existing talent when EW gets on campus (barring very unexpected attrition).

Personally, I think the kid likes Duke. Tenn has some academic issues right now. Not the team, the entire school. There has been a big stink in Tenn that the athletic dept has been funded at the expense of the academic facilities, some of which are decrepit. So his parents may like Duke better.

But, the pt situation at Tenn is likely better than at Duke, and maybe significantly better should GH stay. This kid is competitive, but there is a lot of PT and shots available at Tenn. Duke may be a hard sell due to this.

I hope the staff gets him, but this is going to be a heck of a fight. That is why the staff is reportedly also pursuing another Tenn HS player who is a EW clone. Do not get your hopes up regarding EW. 50/50 chance, at best.

Patrick Yates

[Capn Poptart]

I like our players at guard, but after watching Elliot's highlight on youtube, I don't think we have anyone like him. If that video is indicative, he can be (to quote K) special.

[Patrick Yates]

Cap'n (love the handle), this is not specific to you, but rather with the board in general. Again, not personal.

THE YOUTUBE LOVE AFFAIR MUST END!!!!!!!!!!

Honest to god, a youtube highlight reel is just that, a highlight reel. It shows a player, obviously gifted far and beyond most of the other players on the court, in the most positive light. For the previous two summers this board was drooling over McBob and LT's youtube highlights. Based on those reels we thought McBob would average 20-25 ppg and be a stud, and that LT would be a solid starter from day 1. Nothing came of it. Heck, you could put together a youtube video of McBob from last year that would be awesome, and would lead you to believe he was one of the best players in the country.

This is what ruined basketball, the highlight reel. McBob's two highlight reel dunks a game never showed the full story. They didn't show the pouting, the unwillingness to do into the post, the inability to shoot (and his youtube package showed him knocking down trees, probably the only 3 he hit out of many attempts).

I beseach all posters, do not comment on a kids skills unless you have seen them in person, or have read about them from a trusted recruiting source. Obviously, in person evaluations are the favored method. Youtube reels are as accurate as hearing it from a guy who heard it from a guy. All we are getting is the positives, not the negatives.

Based on what I have read, EW is very similiar to NS, JS, and MP. Basically he is less athletic than GH but a better shooter, like the above three. He is similiar.

And coach K says that about most recruits. He wouldn't recruit a kid to Duke unless that kid had a chance to be special. He said that about GH and JS, and KS and NS this year. He uses the word a lot, especially when trying to lure the kid to Duke.

Patrick Yates

[kydevil]

As usual, after reading your post Patrick I feel great about our chances with a recruit...

[ACCBBallFan]

Kid must be pretty special for K to go after him as much as Monroe, rather than after a more needed big.

That could also say something aout the depth of the 2008 class vis a vis 2009.
Even there Duke is not going after very many bigs. So I surmise coach K is as happy with his 4 year guy Zoubek and the prospects for Lance, Kyle and Taylor to play as bigs in disguise, as he is with most of the bigs available.

[Capn Poptart]

Well, I did say "if that video is indicative...", but you make a good point about highlight reels. Of course there's no way to tell without seeing the guy play multiple times. And by someone who truly knows how to evaluate talent (i.e. not me). But I will say that THE HIGHLIGHT REEL reminded me of Johnny D, and that gets me excited.

I compare it to a movie trailer: If I saw a dynamite trailer for an upcoming film, I'd be intrigued. And if a group of top film critics whose judgement I trusted had previewed the film and raved about it, I'd be sold. Elliot looks like next year's summer blockbuster and K and staff seem to be saying run, don't walk to the decaplex bunker down by the mall.

Hmmm. Maybe the staff went for popcorn and milk duds while reviewing McRoberts.

[Patrick Yates]

ACC, I saw an article by Parish over on CBS.com, when he says that Monroe would be closer to 10 than 1 in Oden's class, and maybe even last year.

I got the idea that maybe GM would've been ranked behind GH and KS in their respective classes.

GM will be very good, no doubt, but I see him as being like Brandon Wright, long on potential, but short on immediate help in college. The other bigs in class are not much better, as far as helping a team during their short stay in college. Samuels gets props for raising his O, but his rebounding is spotty, and the D is non-existant.

I think K, rather than being totally satisfied with the current group of posts, is wisely willing to take the chance of whiffing on posts in a weak class by only targeting a few, rather than offering a kid in panic which runs the risk of scaring off a better player from the 09 class. There are several posts in the 09 class that I would love to get any one of. I commend K, if this is what he is doing.

As for EW, I see him in the we would like to get him, but we are not hosed if we do not get him catagory. As good as he is/may be, there are virtual clones at his position year in and year out, and K can get one of these at a later point. Also, we are stacked at the position, especially if GH sticks arround. Actually, if GH sticks arround, EW might not see that much PT given the number of talented, experienced players already at Duke.

Patrick Yates

[Oriole Way]

I don't see why any stud recruit would turn down Duke in favor of Tennessee, especially if the kid and his parents value academics whatsoever, seeing how Duke is one of the best academic institutions in the entire world.

You go to Tennessee to win SEC football championships and women's basketball national championships. Williams should go to the school that has won three titles and has virtually every single one of its games nationally televised, the school that has the most players in the NBA.

Pearl is just a hot coaching name, if he's so good, he'll leave for a better job in a few years anyway. Why anyone would go with a hot coach over someone considered the best, up there with the likes of John Wooden, is beyond me.

We should be in great shape with Williams, if he chooses Tennessee, so be it - his loss.

[kydevil]

I don't see why any stud recruit would turn down Duke in favor of Tennessee, especially if the kid and his parents value academics whatsoever, seeing how Duke is one of the best academic institutions in the entire world.

You go to Tennessee to win SEC football championships and women's basketball national championships. Williams should go to the school that has won three titles and has virtually every single one of its games nationally televised, the school that has the most players in the NBA.

Pearl is just a hot coaching name, if he's so good, he'll leave for a better job in a few years anyway. Why anyone would go with a hot coach over someone considered the best, up there with the likes of John Wooden, is beyond me.

We should be in great shape with Williams, if he chooses Tennessee, so be it - his loss.


Not to be negative but UT basketball has been great with pearl. He is bringing in solid recruiting classes all ready. Plus they are ranked preseason above us. They also advanced further in the NCAA tourny, and should have never lost to eventual runner-ups Osu.

[Oriole Way]

Not to be negative but UT basketball has been great with pearl. He is bringing in solid recruiting classes all ready. Plus they are ranked preseason above us. They also advanced further in the NCAA tourny, and should have never lost to eventual runner-ups Osu.

I'm not dismissing that, but comparing UT's great little 2 or 3 year run to what Coach K has done isn't worth debating.

[DevilAlumna]

I'm not dismissing that, but comparing UT's great little 2 or 3 year run to what Coach K has done isn't worth debating.

It's highly possible (dare I say probable) that most 16-17 yo bball players, though aware of K's greatness, don't quite have the full appreciation of the sheer volume of the "lore of K" and may be more swayed by "what have I seen since I entered high school."

And Pearl dressing up at the Lady Vol's game was definitely entertaining & memorable.

[Bob Green]

It's highly possible (dare I say probable) that most 16-17 yo bball players, though aware of K's greatness, don't quite have the full appreciation of the sheer volume of the "lore of K" and may be more swayed by "what have I seen since I entered high school."


Great point DA. Us longtime DukeFanatics find it extremely difficult to view the World from the perspective of a high schooler. The overwhelming majority of the time, I consider that their problem, but when it comes to recruiting it is definitely our problem!

Bob Green
Yokosuka, Japan

[Patrick Yates]

Fellow board members, I know that I come off as kind of a downer sometimes. For that, I am sorry. But, I try to inject a little logical reasoning into my posts.

Too often, we do not think about things from the point of view of the recruits. We only think about our point of view. This often fails to deliver an accurate picture.

For instance, I pointed out that GM or EW might shy away from Duke due to competition for minutes or shots. I got roundly shouted down, with some arguments centered on the idea that Duke doesn't want kids who aren't compeitive. Well, from the kids point of view, it may not be selfish, merely being cautious. At Duke, if EW had a few bad games, he might get replaced by a player approximately as good, and then never get the chance to get back on court, simply because the other guy might not have a bad day.

At Florida, under Spurrior, the FB team had trouble recruiting (to national championship standards) during his last few years with the team. Part of this was due to Spurrior's unwillingness to kiss up to recruits, but part of it was the fear that if they made one bad play, Spurrior would yank them and they would never get back on the court.

Realistically, our backcourt in 08-09 is already crowded. GP will start and play, a lot, as a Senior. JS will be an experienced Jr, perhaps poised for the type of breakout year that JJ experienced (if not to that degree, because of other scorers in the rotation). Nolan Smith will have a year in the program, and perhaps significant PT under his belt. MP continues to make strides, and at worst, will be earning solid minutes as a backup player, especially as a Sr. That is without counting GH.

If, as I expect, Duke corrals some post player this year, and LT and BZ make expected strides over the next year, KS will be able to move over to the three for extended minutes, along with TK. In an effort to get GH and KS on the court together, backcourt minutes will get tight, quickly. Even if either KS or GH leaves early, the backcourt rotation will be virtually set.

EW is a good player, so he will get on the court, some. But, at Duke, given the talent likely to be in place, even if EW plays as well as he can, he might play less than 20 mpg. This is no slight, it is just that Duke has talent in place at his position. This cannot be news to him. On his official visit, when he looks arround at practice he will see a bunch of underclassmen who look like him, as far as size, build, and skillset.

At Duke, K places a great deal of emphasis on knowing K's system. This has served us well for a couple of Decades. But, it makes it hard for a kid to come in and master that system, especially when K will have game time options that already know, or have mastered, the system.

EW will be a success (very probably) wherever he goes. It just might happen quicker at Tenn. Also, the dismissal of Tenn and Pearl is very indicative of the blinders many of the board posters seem to be wearing. Tenn has made a huge committment to hoops. I do not think Pearl is going anywhere. None of the "prestige" college programs are going to come available any time soon, and UT is going to make the financial committment to Pearl as soon as he wins big (elite 8 or FF, a decent chance of this this year).

Oriole, at some point in the late 80s, some folks at KU, UK, and UNC said the same things about K that you are saying about Pearl. This is not to say that Pearl is a good a coach as K, but you never know. Pearl can sell EW on the idea that EW might be the piece that pushes UT into national elite status.

Now, if GH AND KS both blow up this year and leave (unlikely) then there would be minutes galore for EW at Duke, because JS would be forced to play some SF, along with MP, leaving only NS and GP as guard-only type players. But we won't know that until the end of the year, and that would leave Duke with a different set of problems next year (unless we get GM)

As for my Monroe comments above, upon re-reading them they were more negative, towards a young man's skills, than I meant. I was only pointing out that this widely acknowledged as a very weak class. There will be much more from the recruiting press on this fact in the comming weeks. This might be why K and the staff are not pursuing as many players as some (me) might have wished for them to pursue even 2 months ago. K has proven smarter than me yet again. But, while GM might not be the elite talent of previous No. 1s, he is still very, very good. Thus, he can go anywhere, and the lure of being the go to option from day 1 is a hard lure to resist. There are other programs where he will play a lot that are nationally televised a great deal, if not as much as at Duke. A lesser ranked PF, like Cyz or Dunnigan be great fits at Duke, from their viewpoints, cause they need more time to develop their games than the one and done GM. They would get adequate PT while helping Duke and themselves. For GM, he helps Duke a lot more than Duke would help GM, at least in comparison to other schools due to the availability of PT and shots.

With my posts, downers though they may be, I am trying to present a dose of reality. Maybe even worst case scenario reality. We need that. Beleive me, someone close to the kid has already said everything to a potential recruit that I will say. Optimism is all well and good, but Blind Optimism is foolhardy, much like dismissing the competition out of hand. That just leads to feelings and hopes being crushed down the road.

We should still pull for Duke to get EW and GM. I hope we do. But do not count on it, because then it just hurts worse later. That leads to many recriminations against the kids or the program when our expectations were unrealistic, or, ill-thought out, in the first place.

Patrick Yates

[ACCBBallFan]

There are other programs where he will play a lot that are nationally televised a great deal, if not as much as at Duke. A lesser ranked PF, like Cyz or Dunnigan be great fits at Duke, from their viewpoints, cause they need more time to develop their games than the one and done GM. They would get adequate PT while helping Duke and themselves. For GM, he helps Duke a lot more than Duke would help GM, at least in comparison to other schools due to the availability of PT and shots.
Patrick YatesPatrick, no one is nationally televised as much as Duke.

Agree with you on Czyz but think Dunnigan may be out of reach, Horton is a possibility because of Shelden connection, and John Riek too.

Just as you say Elliot may benefit from being the final player to help TN get to FF/NC, same may be true for Monroe and Duke. So Duke does help him in that regard,

as well as probably playing the style this year with Singler and Lance and possibly King as post defenders but perimeter guys on offense that may best fit Monroe.

[JasonEvans]

Fellow board members, I know that I come off as kind of a downer sometimes. For that, I am sorry. But, I try to inject a little logical reasoning into my posts.

(snip)

At Duke, if EW had a few bad games, he might get replaced by a player approximately as good, and then never get the chance to get back on court, simply because the other guy might not have a bad day.

Right, like the way K benched Paulus last year and never gave him another chance when he was struggling. K is well known for making knee-jerk decisions about talented players and not giving them another chance. :rolleyes:


Realistically, our backcourt in 08-09 is already crowded. GP will start and play, a lot, as a Senior. JS will be an experienced Jr, perhaps poised for the type of breakout year that JJ experienced (if not to that degree, because of other scorers in the rotation). Nolan Smith will have a year in the program, and perhaps significant PT under his belt. MP continues to make strides, and at worst, will be earning solid minutes as a backup player, especially as a Sr. That is without counting GH.

I think it is true that Williams might have trouble getting major minutes at Duke as a freshman, but what about the next year when Paulus is gone and (likely) Henderson is in the pros. His soph season it would appear that the only backcourt guys who will be there will be Smith and the senior Scheyer. While I am sure Duke will look at other wings/guards down the road, there appears to be a TON of time available fairly quickly at Duke-- maybe not from day one, but certainly when Williams would be a soph... and there is no way Elliot Williams is looking for a school where he can go to the NBA after one season. He is simply not that kind of person nor that kind of player.



EW is a good player, so he will get on the court, some. But, at Duke, given the talent likely to be in place, even if EW plays as well as he can, he might play less than 20 mpg. This is no slight, it is just that Duke has talent in place at his position. This cannot be news to him. On his official visit, when he looks arround at practice he will see a bunch of underclassmen who look like him, as far as size, build, and skillset.

Come on Patrick. You are smart enough to know we will not to fall for the "every 6-4 guy plays the same" argument. Have you seen Elliot Williams play at all to judge that he plays the same as Scheyer or Smith or Henderson? Just because guys have similar size and weights and maybe even builds does not mean they play the same or bring the same skill set to the floor. I will admit that you sometimes make legitimate points that make sense but this arguemnet is far and away your weakest.

I have not seen Elliot Williams play enough to know what he can and cannot do well on the court, but I am very confident his skills are different than the other guards/wings we have at Duke. He may be similar in some ways but he is different in many, many others-- I am sure of it.


While GM might not be the elite talent of previous No. 1s, he is still very, very good. Thus, he can go anywhere, and the lure of being the go to option from day 1 is a hard lure to resist. There are other programs where he will play a lot that are nationally televised a great deal, if not as much as at Duke. A lesser ranked PF, like Cyz or Dunnigan be great fits at Duke, from their viewpoints, cause they need more time to develop their games than the one and done GM. They would get adequate PT while helping Duke and themselves. For GM, he helps Duke a lot more than Duke would help GM, at least in comparison to other schools due to the availability of PT and shots.

I am probably misunderstanding you but are you actually suggesting that in a class that is by all descriptions not as deep or as talented as past classes you think we should not go after the best players and instead should focus on lesser talents. That is not what you are saying, is it?

Now, I am sure you are saying that Greg Monroe would face playing time challenges at Duke that could scare him off and thwart his supposed plans to play just one year of college ball before bolting to the NBA. I am sorry, but I find it hard to believe that anyone talented enough to be one-and-done would be scared about playing time at any school -- especially one that everyone agrees is short on talented players at his position. The argument that he would rather be "the man- like Durant" in college is ludicrous because Monroe is not a Durant-like talent. It does not matter wherre he plays, he is not going to be Kevin Durant. That's like saying Kwame Brown could have been like Lebron James (from an endorsement standpoint).


We should still pull for Duke to get EW and GM. I hope we do. But do not count on it, because then it just hurts worse later. That leads to many recriminations against the kids or the program when our expectations were unrealistic, or, ill-thought out, in the first place.


The vast majority of Duke fans, the smart ones, know we do not get every recruit we want. We learned that lesson with Patterson just a few weeks ago. I don't think we blast kids who pick other schools and I don't think we get angry at them. I am not even sure what "recriminations" you are talking about. I am not sure why you feel the need to be the voice of doom to protect from our own hopes.

Considering you claim you want Duke to get Williams and Monroe, you sure have a strange way of showing that. You constantly posting reasons they should go elsewhere and reasons why Duke should not even be recruiting them. As you know, I think this behavior is potentially harmful to the Duke program but my point of this post is to ask why you continue to do it. You are presenting the same tired and rebutted arguments over and over again. The most disliked and annoying posters on these boards are the people who make the same points in mutiple posts. You are far too smart and respected to become someone like that... I hope.

-Jason "there is nothing wrong with having high hopes for Duke... and nothing wrong with having those hopes prove untrue. It is called being a FAN" Evans

[Jaymf7]

Fellow board members, I know that I come off as kind of a downer sometimes. For that, I am sorry. But, I try to inject a little logical reasoning into my posts....

With my posts, downers though they may be, I am trying to present a dose of reality. Maybe even worst case scenario reality. We need that. Beleive me, someone close to the kid has already said everything to a potential recruit that I will say. Optimism is all well and good, but Blind Optimism is foolhardy, much like dismissing the competition out of hand. That just leads to feelings and hopes being crushed down the road.

Patrick Yates

I think Patrick is suggesting we should adopt the same broken logic he believes our best recruits have.

He claims that our top recruits do not want to compete for playing time by choosing an elite progam with a talented roster and a legitimate chance at a title. Instead, they should go for the "sure-thing" -- a lesser school where they will surely get PT and shots, but perhaps not a title.

Similarly, he appears to be arguing that we -- Duke fans -- should likewise "aim lower." Rather than competing for the best talent, which is by nature more of a high risk/high reward endeavor, we should target lesser (four year) players who do not feel the need to start or contribute immediately. By doing this, our success rate will be higher and we will be happier (compare better stats, shots and PT for the recruit). Of course, the titles could be more elusive without top talent.

I'd rather aim high and suffer disappointment from time to time. Wasn't Singler highly touted and a risk to go elsewhere? I'm sure we'll be glad to have him (and each of our other top recruits) this fall.

[Indoor66]

Fellow board members, I know that I come off as kind of a downer sometimes. For that, I am sorry. But, I try to inject a little logical reasoning into my posts.

Too often, we do not think about things from the point of view of the recruits. We only think about our point of view. This often fails to deliver an accurate picture.

For instance, I pointed out that GM or EW might shy away from Duke due to competition for minutes or shots. I got roundly shouted down, with some arguments centered on the idea that Duke doesn't want kids who aren't compeitive. Well, from the kids point of view, it may not be selfish, merely being cautious. At Duke, if EW had a few bad games, he might get replaced by a player approximately as good, and then never get the chance to get back on court, simply because the other guy might not have a bad day.

At Florida, under Spurrior, the FB team had trouble recruiting (to national championship standards) during his last few years with the team. Part of this was due to Spurrior's unwillingness to kiss up to recruits, but part of it was the fear that if they made one bad play, Spurrior would yank them and they would never get back on the court.

Realistically, our backcourt in 08-09 is already crowded. GP will start and play, a lot, as a Senior. JS will be an experienced Jr, perhaps poised for the type of breakout year that JJ experienced (if not to that degree, because of other scorers in the rotation). Nolan Smith will have a year in the program, and perhaps significant PT under his belt. MP continues to make strides, and at worst, will be earning solid minutes as a backup player, especially as a Sr. That is without counting GH.

If, as I expect, Duke corrals some post player this year, and LT and BZ make expected strides over the next year, KS will be able to move over to the three for extended minutes, along with TK. In an effort to get GH and KS on the court together, backcourt minutes will get tight, quickly. Even if either KS or GH leaves early, the backcourt rotation will be virtually set.

EW is a good player, so he will get on the court, some. But, at Duke, given the talent likely to be in place, even if EW plays as well as he can, he might play less than 20 mpg. This is no slight, it is just that Duke has talent in place at his position. This cannot be news to him. On his official visit, when he looks arround at practice he will see a bunch of underclassmen who look like him, as far as size, build, and skillset.

At Duke, K places a great deal of emphasis on knowing K's system. This has served us well for a couple of Decades. But, it makes it hard for a kid to come in and master that system, especially when K will have game time options that already know, or have mastered, the system.

EW will be a success (very probably) wherever he goes. It just might happen quicker at Tenn. Also, the dismissal of Tenn and Pearl is very indicative of the blinders many of the board posters seem to be wearing. Tenn has made a huge committment to hoops. I do not think Pearl is going anywhere. None of the "prestige" college programs are going to come available any time soon, and UT is going to make the financial committment to Pearl as soon as he wins big (elite 8 or FF, a decent chance of this this year).

Oriole, at some point in the late 80s, some folks at KU, UK, and UNC said the same things about K that you are saying about Pearl. This is not to say that Pearl is a good a coach as K, but you never know. Pearl can sell EW on the idea that EW might be the piece that pushes UT into national elite status.

Now, if GH AND KS both blow up this year and leave (unlikely) then there would be minutes galore for EW at Duke, because JS would be forced to play some SF, along with MP, leaving only NS and GP as guard-only type players. But we won't know that until the end of the year, and that would leave Duke with a different set of problems next year (unless we get GM)

As for my Monroe comments above, upon re-reading them they were more negative, towards a young man's skills, than I meant. I was only pointing out that this widely acknowledged as a very weak class. There will be much more from the recruiting press on this fact in the comming weeks. This might be why K and the staff are not pursuing as many players as some (me) might have wished for them to pursue even 2 months ago. K has proven smarter than me yet again. But, while GM might not be the elite talent of previous No. 1s, he is still very, very good. Thus, he can go anywhere, and the lure of being the go to option from day 1 is a hard lure to resist. There are other programs where he will play a lot that are nationally televised a great deal, if not as much as at Duke. A lesser ranked PF, like Cyz or Dunnigan be great fits at Duke, from their viewpoints, cause they need more time to develop their games than the one and done GM. They would get adequate PT while helping Duke and themselves. For GM, he helps Duke a lot more than Duke would help GM, at least in comparison to other schools due to the availability of PT and shots.

With my posts, downers though they may be, I am trying to present a dose of reality. Maybe even worst case scenario reality. We need that. Beleive me, someone close to the kid has already said everything to a potential recruit that I will say. Optimism is all well and good, but Blind Optimism is foolhardy, much like dismissing the competition out of hand. That just leads to feelings and hopes being crushed down the road.

We should still pull for Duke to get EW and GM. I hope we do. But do not count on it, because then it just hurts worse later. That leads to many recriminations against the kids or the program when our expectations were unrealistic, or, ill-thought out, in the first place.

Patrick Yates

I enjoy your posts but must interject a request. Please identify people by name (last at a minimum.) In a posts as long as many of yours, I find it nearly impossible to follow the shifts in personnel under discussion when using only initials. For me, it is truly difficult to follow and, respectfully, annoying.

[Patrick Yates]

I think Patrick is suggesting we should adopt the same broken logic he believes our best recruits have.

He claims that our top recruits do not want to compete for playing time by choosing an elite progam with a talented roster and a legitimate chance at a title. Instead, they should go for the "sure-thing" -- a lesser school where they will surely get PT and shots, but perhaps not a title.

Similarly, he appears to be arguing that we -- Duke fans -- should likewise "aim lower." Rather than competing for the best talent, which is by nature more of a high risk/high reward endeavor, we should target lesser (four year) players who do not feel the need to start or contribute immediately. By doing this, our success rate will be higher and we will be happier (compare better stats, shots and PT for the recruit). Of course, the titles could be more elusive without top talent.

I'd rather aim high and suffer disappointment from time to time. Wasn't Singler highly touted and a risk to go elsewhere? I'm sure we'll be glad to have him (and each of our other top recruits) this fall.

Elite players like GM and EW want to be stars. I think they will go to schools where they have the opportunity to be key players on teams with good post season options.

As for GM, LSU is not great, but they have some talented players next year. If they stay in place, GM could be the final piece. Kentucky, Kansas, UNC, or Texas, all have talented teams in place, and might need help in the post in 08-09, and GM says he will wait till the spring to decide. He is doing that to suss out the best situation for himself, and that means PT and shots. If he was going to decide this summer, or in the fall, then I would love our chances. But he will wait, and Duke might not be the most attractive situation in May. At most of those schools (maybe not Kansas or UNC) GM would be the top option nearly from day one. At Duke, GM would play significant minutes. But as a frosh, that would probably still be under 30 mpg, and if KS and GH are still arround, GM will not be a focal point of the O. At some of the other schools, all NCAA elites with NC hopes year in and year out, he might get 30+mpg and more shots.

Same at Tenn for EW. Tenn had a good frosh class this year, and they have good incomming talent next year. Their only weakness (and this is relative to the strengths at the other positions) will be at SG, where EW plays.

As Good as Duke might be in 08-09, Tenn will be right there. They will have a nucleus of experienced and talented Sophs and Jrs, and EW can step right in to a starting job and play a key role on a NC caliber team, rather than a supporting role on a NC caliber team. Which would be more attractive to you?

As for the 6-4 players are all alike, well, no, they aren't. However, based on what we have read about EW, and our current players, which of GP, NS, JS and MP sits. Sure K might siphon off a few minutes from each, but that has not been his modus operendus for a few years, especially where upperclassmen are concerned. So if you were a coach, who do you sit for EW to get his burn, and why?

As for optimism, I am all for hoping. But there is a huge difference between hoping and expecting. And some people here expect Duke to be great simply by virtue of us being Duke, regardless of recruits, players, or coaching decisions, almost as if we are impervious to harm. That is delusional.
When we lose, it is always some one, or some thing, else's fault. Refs, completley out of the blue, could never happen again, cold shooting, other team playing out of their heads, whatever. Sometimes, especially in the years since 02, Duke simply has not been as good as the other team, or coaching decisions during the course of the year or game were highly quesitonable. But this thinking is never considered, no, not that blasphemy. That is why I inject reality. Hope is fine. Anything can happen, see Cardiac Pack. But you can't expect greatness when the peices aren't in place, nor are they currently on the horizon. Hope must be tempered with logic, but blind faith must be stamped out, permanently.

Patrick Yates

ps Sorry about the abbreviations, I just hate typing out names repeatedly.

[Classof06]

I agree with Patrick in that kids might shy away from Duke knowing that a McDonald's AA playing their same position will probably step on campus the following fall. If you're EW, and you see Henderson, Smith, Paulus and Scheyer already on the team, that might make you think twice. Kids like EW want to go where they can play; right away.

Some kids, as sad as it sounds, also shy away from Duke because they want to be the man on their team, and fitting into the team concept is not what they want to do. This is illustrated by the idiotic "Duke's system ruins star players" argument.

[ACCBBallFan]

I know we are talking about 18 year olds, but

how can a kid/young man be so brash to think he is ready for the NBA but has to wait due to a recent rule change,

yet at the same time fear competition from Duke or any other college team's roster.

The other point is true though. I know these kid's/yonng men's parents often employ advisors to help them maximize their prospects for NBA success.

Some agents do advise them to be the star on a lesser skilled team rather than a component.

Sounds like bad adivce to me given how many UF and Ohio State guys got drafted in top 9, but it happens.

[JasonEvans]

The other point is true though. I know these kid's/yonng men's parents often employ advisors to help them maximize their prospects for NBA success.

Some agents do advise them to be the star on a lesser skilled team rather than a component.

Sounds like bad adivce to me given how many UF and Ohio State guys got drafted in top 9, but it happens.

Such an "agent" would be a fool. One look at kids like Marvin Williams and Corey Maggette tells you that you need not star at a stud school to be a ridiculously high draft pick. However, playing at a stud school helps.

On the other hand, if he is going to be a role player someplace-- if he is not going to star from day one-- then he is far better at a big-time program. There are no kids who get taken in the top 5 of the draft who were role players at smaller, not-very-successful programs.

Greg Monroe will likely be a top draft pick when he enters the draft regardless of where he plays his college ball. If he goes to Duke and features prominently in a national title contender that will enhanse his chances greatly. If he goes to Duke and doe snot play much that could hurt his chances, but it would not doom them-- not by any stretch.

-Jason "did that make any sense?" Evans

[JasonEvans]

Redacted -- destructively negative


Yeah, at Duke the senior PG has a long history of ignoring the freshman forward with huge potential.

Wojo and Brand.
Duhon and Shel.

Patrick, do you just make stuff up in your effort to convince valued recruits to not come to Duke or do you subscribe to some anti-Duke newsletter?

-Jason "I notice that you completely ignored Marvin Williams, who may be the prefect example of the freshman-role-player-on-a-title-contender situation that seems to be the worst-case senario for Monroe at Duke" Evans

[arnie]

Patrick - haven't you realized that to be a fan of Duke BBall you must believe that Greg Paulus will be as good as Bobby Hurley and that the Zoubek/Thomas combo at center will be comparable to Gminski/Goetch. Also, you are not a true fan on this board if you don't think every recruit will come to Duke and be a great fit!

Keep up the analysis, I enjoy it and count me as a fan that recognizes that we may not be great this year, but will enjoy the season regardless.

[cspan37421]

Give Patrick a break, guys. You don't have to have the mind of a Stepford wife to be a fan of Duke Basketball. Just because you hope for the best doesn't mean that you think the best is likely. And if you can't say that, why have a forum?

[Jumbo]

Give Patrick a break, guys. You don't have to have the mind of a Stepford wife to be a fan of Duke Basketball. Just because you hope for the best doesn't mean that you think the best is likely. And if you can't say that, why have a forum?

No one is asking Patrick to be a Stepford wife and I can assure you he has received many breaks along the way. But there are very clear codes of conduct outlined by the administrators -- Boswell and Julio -- at the top of this board. As moderators, it is our job to enforce them. And Patrick very clearly violated them in two of his posts, and was penalized consistently with action we have taken with other posters. I can assure you that decisions like this are not made in a vacuum, and while I was the moderator who ended up handing out the penalty, his posts were discussed among many moderators.

Hopefully Patrick can better a sense of when he has crossed the line, because he has the ability to contribute valuable insight to the board.

[ACCBBallFan]

On a lighter note, where you been Jumbo. Thought you would not be able to resist commenting on a few of the threads the last week or so.

[cspan37421]

[QUOTE=Jumbo;30709
Hopefully Patrick can better a sense of when he has crossed the line, because he has the ability to contribute valuable insight to the board.[/QUOTE]

I guess we'll have to take your word for it if the offending post has been removed.

[JasonEvans]

I guess we'll have to take your word for it if the offending post has been removed.

I am confused-- are you saying we should leave a post that violates the rules of the board up? What sense does that make?

Or are you just trying to be difficult?

Many of Patrick's posts contain excellent content. That is what Jumbo was referring to.

-Jason "I fail to understand why folks think it is fun or amusing to poke their noses into stuff where they do not have all the facts" Evans

[Jumbo]

On a lighter note, where you been Jumbo. Thought you would not be able to resist commenting on a few of the threads the last week or so.

I've just been enjoying my summer, I guess. Plus, there haven't been many conversations in which I've felt like participating. I've never really enjoyed or understood the point of speculating about lineups and minutes. Plus, everyone already knows how I evaluate various players, and there's nothing more annoying than someone who makes the same point, over and over (like spending three-plus years listing the same reasons why Cameron should be replaced), so I don't want to be that guy.

I'm sure I'll contribute once the season starts, but for the time being, I'm just lurking and fulfilling my moderator duties when necessary.

[cspan37421]

I am confused-- are you saying we should leave a post that violates the rules of the board up? What sense does that make?

Or are you just trying to be difficult?

Many of Patrick's posts contain excellent content. That is what Jumbo was referring to.

-Jason "I fail to understand why folks think it is fun or amusing to poke their noses into stuff where they do not have all the facts" Evans

Not trying to be difficult or amusing, I assure you. Just noting that since the post has been removed, others cannot see for themselves what he said that crossed the line. But no, I'm not saying you should leave up a post that is supposed to be taken down by the rules. But maybe you can cite what rule was violated?


BTW, Jason, we're classmates. You're in my '89 yearbook, but I'm sorry, I don't remember you, but then again, I only knew a fairly small subset (and remember even fewer!). FWIW I was in Jarvis '85-'86. For some reason I bet you weren't. Trent, maybe?

[JasonEvans]

Not trying to be difficult or amusing, I assure you. Just noting that since the post has been removed, others cannot see for themselves what he said that crossed the line. But no, I'm not saying you should leave up a post that is supposed to be taken down by the rules. But maybe you can cite what rule was violated?


BTW, Jason, we're classmates. You're in my '89 yearbook, but I'm sorry, I don't remember you, but then again, I only knew a fairly small subset (and remember even fewer!). FWIW I was in Jarvis '85-'86. For some reason I bet you weren't. Trent, maybe?

I was in Wannamaker freshman year, the last of the West Campus Freshmen!! After that, I lived on Central but spent a ton of time at Stonehenge. I hung out a lot in line and with some guys on the team who were friends.

I never went to class.

I will not discuss the inflamatory parts of banned posts in public. Sorry, I don't think that is really appropriate. PM me if you want more.

-Jason

[Classof06]

From what I've heard, there's radio interview with Chris Low of the Nashville Tennessean saying that Elliot Williams has pretty much narrowed his list down to Tennessee and Duke, with a lean towards UT. Williams has said that he wants to choose a school before his senior season starts and his senior year will be starting in about the next month, so getting down to two schools makes sense.

I'll try and get more info ASAP. Whether this article is truthful or not, we obviously have a good shot at landing EW. IMO if he doesn't come, it'll be because of the logjam we'll have at the 1 and 2 positions (Paulus, Smith, Henderson, Scheyer, Pocius).


Watzone, maybe you might have some info?

[custardpie]

with a slight lean towards UT? that's a surprise. i sure hope we land elliot. he's such a multifaceted player and i think he could be a star for us

[Cameron]

With the great and exciting offense coach Bruce Pearl has been implementing so far in his stay in Knoxville, it comes as no surprise to me that Williams would seriously be considering UT. He's the type of player that could really fit in well in that offense--he's very quick, likes to run in the open court, and can shoot the three-ball exceptionally well. He and Chris Lofton would be a great combo.

Wow, I sound like I am gushing over the fact that Tennessee might land him over us:( I'll stop now.

In the end, though, Elliot has to decide whether or not he wants to live in an orange city add nauseum, or play in storied Cameron under perhaps the greatest teacher the game has ever known. Not a very tough call in my book.

[kydevil]

In the end, though, Elliot has to decide whether or not he wants to live in an orange city add nauseum, or play in storied Cameron under perhaps the greatest teacher the game has ever known. Not a very tough call in my book.

Cameron when you make it sound like that I have to agree with you!:D

[Heelo]

I'd discount the "UT lean" considering the source.

[NYC Duke Fan]

With the great and exciting offense coach Bruce Pearl has been implementing so far in his stay in Knoxville, it comes as no surprise to me that Williams would seriously be considering UT. He's the type of player that could really fit in well in that offense--he's very quick, likes to run in the open court, and can shoot the three-ball exceptionally well. He and Chris Lofton would be a great combo.

Wow, I sound like I am gushing over the fact that Tennessee might land him over us:( I'll stop now.

In the end, though, Elliot has to decide whether or not he wants to live in an orange city add nauseum, or play in storied Cameron under perhaps the greatest teacher the game has ever known. Not a very tough call in my book.

Not everyone wants to play at," storied Cameron under perhaps the greatest teacher the game has ever known". I would venture to say that there are and were hundreds of players who never considered that option. Playing for Roy Williams,Rick Pitino, Billy Donovan, Tom Izzo, Jim Calhoun etc. in their venues could be just as great an experience as playing at Duke for Coach K.

[JasonEvans]

With the great and exciting offense coach Bruce Pearl has been implementing so far in his stay in Knoxville, it comes as no surprise to me that Williams would seriously be considering UT. He's the type of player that could really fit in well in that offense--he's very quick, likes to run in the open court, and can shoot the three-ball exceptionally well. He and Chris Lofton would be a great combo.


You are aware that Chris Lofton is a senior and will not be at UT when Elliot Williams is a freshman, right?

Same with their 2nd leading scorer, JaJuan Smith, and their starting PG, Dane Bradshaw. I am not saying the cubbard will be bare at Tennessee next year, but it will not nearly be stocked the way it is now. I might add that Tennessee's recruiting class this coming season doesn't appear to contain any impact players. They have a nice crop of sophs who may mature into good players, but it is not like Tennessee is a sure-thing to remain a first division team in the SEC going forward. I won't be at all surprised if they miss the NCAAs after Lofton, Smith, and Bradshaw graduate.

--Jason "I am sure the pressure on Williams to stay in his home state is strong-- but from a pure basketball standpoint, his decision seems to be easy" Evans

[ACCBBallFan]

You are aware that Chris Lofton is a senior and will not be at UT when Elliot Williams is a freshman, right?

Same with their 2nd leading scorer, JaJuan Smith, and their starting PG, Dane Bradshaw. I am not saying the cubbard will be bare at Tennessee next year, but it will not nearly be stocked the way it is now. I might add that Tennessee's recruiting class this coming season doesn't appear to contain any impact players. They have a nice crop of sophs who may mature into good players, but it is not like Tennessee is a sure-thing to remain a first division team in the SEC going forward. I won't be at all surprised if they miss the NCAAs after Lofton, Smith, and Bradshaw graduate.

--Jason "I am sure the pressure on Williams to stay in his home state is strong-- but from a pure basketball standpoint, his decision seems to be easy" Evans
It depends if Elliot Williams looks at it from the short term PT his freshman year and home state though quite a hike from Memphis or the longer term with Paulus-Pocius-McClure senior teammates his freshman year and more PT opening up years 2-4 or however many he plays in college as those three and possibly others move on, after he is grounded.

[Patrick Yates]

You are aware that Chris Lofton is a senior and will not be at UT when Elliot Williams is a freshman, right?

Same with their 2nd leading scorer, JaJuan Smith, and their starting PG, Dane Bradshaw. I am not saying the cubbard will be bare at Tennessee next year, but it will not nearly be stocked the way it is now. I might add that Tennessee's recruiting class this coming season doesn't appear to contain any impact players. They have a nice crop of sophs who may mature into good players, but it is not like Tennessee is a sure-thing to remain a first division team in the SEC going forward. I won't be at all surprised if they miss the NCAAs after Lofton, Smith, and Bradshaw graduate.

--Jason "I am sure the pressure on Williams to stay in his home state is strong-- but from a pure basketball standpoint, his decision seems to be easy" Evans

http://tennessee.rivals.com/cbroster.asp

Above is a link to the roster that Tenn will sport next year. Outside lofton, their best players are all sophmores, with virtually none of them a threat to leave early.

If Elliot goes there, the lineup his frosh year would include, and their current class:

PG Ramar Smith, So. This kid got a real late start last year because the NCAA clearinghouse was late determining his eligibility. This shortened his learning curve, which for a frosh PG is steep. Many feel confident that he will make a real leap this year as he works on his playmaking. His Jr year, when EW arrives, could see him as one of the best PGs in the SEC.

PF/C: Wayne Chism, So. Underrated as a HS recruit, he showed the ability to mix it up down low. They brought in a project seven footer this year, and they already have committed a 6-9 300 lb kid for next year. If either of these work out, it would let Chism move to PF, his natural position. Assume, best case for Duke, that they do not work out and Chism stays at C. He is a very good post player who will only be helped by more time in the weight room. Best of all, he is not really an early entry player. He might leave after his Jr year, but he would have to really blow up for that to happen.

SF: Tyler Smith, So. A lot of people are forgetting this kid is in the program now. He averaged 11+ ppg at Iowa last year and was allowed a hardship transfer, with no redshirt year, meaning he is immediately eligible, due his Tenn based father's illness. This kid will be good next year, and a potential stud there after. This could be THE impact newcomer in the SEC, and one of the best nationally as far as impact.

PF/SF: Duke Crews, So. Former McD's AA. great combo player who can spend time at the PF or the SF. With work on his ball skills, he could be a very solid perfomer as a Jr.

All in all, it is a very strong starting 4. The only position of glaring weakness on the team? SG. I wonder if a vacant SG slot, on a team where the coach has shown he will focus on getting the SG shots a-plenty, is at all attractive to a HS senior?

We may not want to admit it, but Tenn has a glaring need at EW's position on a team that will be pretty good when EW is a frosh. He could step into a starting gig on a team that will be top 10 (with EW, probably in the 20s without). Pearl has shown the ability to put able bodied subs on the court. Plus, EW could be the lynch pin for more recruits both in this class and beyond (like Dawkins was for us).

Also, completely discount that home state school bull plonky. UTenn is on the west side of the state, and while very popular, it is not like UNC is here in NC as far as recruiting. The Tenn football program barely bothers to recruit in Memphis, as most of the kids are Bama leans due to proximity. Memphis is the one city in the state where Tenn is not the automatic childhood favorite of every school boy. Memphis has pro sports, and a pretty good Uni in its own right. The local writers there are not UT homers. If EW is considering Tenn, it is because he likes the situation, not state pressure. Not in Memphis.

This is a dog fight. I do not see where Duke is the automatic better situation, basketball wise. Duke could be good in 2 years, but only if Henderson stays, and blows up as predicted (could be mutually exclusive), and Singler is good and stays (likely to happen, I will grant), and our post situation miraculously resolves itself. Now, if Duke gets Monroe, Reik, Czyz, or some combo therein, then Duke is the clear cut better situation. From a team standpoint. EW might barely play. Scheyer, Paulus, and Smith will gobble up minutes at the guard rotation. Throw in Henderson who might spend minutes there, and Pocius, and the rotation gets crowded, especially for a frosh who has to play K-level D (not a concern at Tenn).

Frankly, should Duke's post situation not improve, I would not be shocked if Tenn was ranked higher than Duke next preseason (if EW goes to Tenn), in addition to this preseason. I just do not see how Duke really needs another 6-4 guard NEXT year. The year after, we need one.

I hope we get the kid. He is good, and can only help the team. But a decision in favor of the Vols would be at least as rational as one in favor of Duke.

Patrick Yates

[Cameron]

You are aware that Chris Lofton is a senior and will not be at UT when Elliot Williams is a freshman, right?

My mistake. For some reason I was thinking Lofton was still a Junior. I guess I recant my earlier statements and conclude that he should choose Duke:)

[KrimsonKing]

i find it highly skeptical...

[KrimsonKing]

is anyone else getting tired of Bruce Pearl???

[Classof06]

i find it highly skeptical...

I think it's pretty easy to say that, but I really don't think that could be too far-fetched. I think it's completely conceivable for this to be true. Bruce Pearl is one of the hottest up-and-coming coaches in America, they're ranked #10 preseason by ESPN (1 spot ahead of Duke), and they look to be in the SEC mix for years to come. The guy didn't say EW was definitely going to UT, he just said that at this point in time, he believes EW is leaning slightly towards UT. If he had said EW was leaning towards Duke, would you believe him then?

If Elliot is as serious about academics as he says he is, then Duke will have a shot no matter what. He already gets along with the coaching staff and thoroughly enjoyed his visit. Duke is right in there with any of those schools. But, like Patrick said above, I don't see how Duke is the outright best choice; not when you consider the logjam we'll have at his position for his freshman year at least. For Patterson, I thought it was a no-brainer but this is a very different situation. I hope it's not the case, but I just don't think it's a stretch for EW to be leaning towards UT.

PS - If you're getting tired of Bruce Pearl, I hope you have earplugs come November because this year, he and Chris Lofton will probably get more press than ever before...

[Cameron]

^^I find myself being a little tired of the whole Bruce Pearl sideshow as well, but I thoroughly do enjoy watching Chris Lofton play. As far as I am concerned, he's the most exciting player in college basketball right now.

I would have LOVED to have seen him and JJ play together at Duke. That would have been something special.

[watzone]

I can tell you that Duke does have an official visit set up with the talented Mr. Williams.

[kydevil]

I can tell you that Duke does have an official visit set up with the talented Mr. Williams.

Can you tell us when that is set for Watzone?

[watzone]

Can you tell us when that is set for Watzone?

The dates will be out there in due time. For now I have to keep that part to my sites premium members. The key is that he is set to come and at this point nobody really knows about it, so sorry if it seems like a bone. Some of my members pay for this kinda stuff, I am really not trying to tease anyone as much as I am remaining faithful to those who keep my site running.

[Patrick Yates]

http://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=705641

Rivals has a new article up that discusses EW's visitation schedule (it is the second question that is answered). Some good insights that we fans would be wise to remember.

Essentially,they posit the theory that the dates in which EW schedules his officials and in-homes mean nothing, unlike other recruits, due to the Willamses being so well informed, methodical, and closed as to their thinking.

This will be a real shoot out.

Patrick Yates

[watzone]

Old News! They're finally catching up to the BDN;) Elliot visits September 7-9.

[Patrick Yates]

Scout has had the dates up for a week, but computer problems, and work, have prevented my posting (I know that I was greatly missed).

Thank God for nothing going on fridays.

Patrick Yates

[Bob Green]

With Sylven Landesberg announcing his intention to attend Virginia, I am feeling really good about our prospects for signing Elliot Williams. Landesberg is rated #38 in the Class of 2008 and plays the same position as EW. I'm optimistic Elliot Williams will decide to play in Durham.

[Patrick Yates]

With Sylven Landesberg announcing his intention to attend Virginia, I am feeling really good about our prospects for signing Elliot Williams. Landesberg is rated #38 in the Class of 2008 and plays the same position as EW. I'm optimistic Elliot Williams will decide to play in Durham.

I agree that this pretty much pushes UVA out of the picture. Theoretically, UVA could play this Sylven at SF, with Williams at SG, or let Williams play some PG, but I doubt it. The roster at UVA is still weak, especially once Singletary graduates this year.

But, UVA was never our main competition for Williams, no matter what their board says. I think that their lack of PG after the sublime Singletary leaves, coupled with an unproven interior, plus the miss on Ed Davis (the nail in the coffin as far as EW is concerned) all = no EW. Plus, keep in mind that EW probably only included UVA because he like Leitao who was the first coach to ever recruit him.

No, our main competition is still on the board. Tennessee is going to be a hard out. They lose their star SG this year, and are strong at nearly every other position, and most of them will be back. Pearl is hot right now, and they have a real need at EW's position.

Also, the Moncrief twins decommitting from Memphis was brutal for us. They were 6-7 swings, and not having them in the fold has to make them more attractive.

Still, many pundits have long believed this to be a 2 horse race, between UT and Duke. 50-50 chances there. I think he may like Duke and K a little better, but the PT situation at UT is a little better. Who knows how this ends?

Patrick Yates

[Carlos]

Patrick - I'm assuming you mean the Morris twins, not Moncrief twins. I don't see their defection impacting Elliot's decision a great deal because neither of them were really the same type of player as Williams. Marcus (who appears to be the better of the two players) is 6-8 and more of a SF while Markieff is closer to 6-10 and is most definitely an inside player.

If anything, Memphis would look less appealing in the wake of their defections. I would be stunned if Chris Douglas-Roberts (their best player) is still there after the end of his junior season this year. They may retain Robert Dozier for his senior season which gives them something to work with on the inside, but they lose Joey Dorsey, another of their inside players.

In all probability, Memphis' roster for next season would be heavy on guards and light on power players (although they do pick up a decent PF). Then again, the same could be said for Duke's roster as well.

As for Tennessee, they'll lose their backcourt (Lofton and JaJuan Smith) and are left without a real point guard.

I like our chances in this one.

[Patrick Yates]

http://tennessee.rivals.com/cbroster.asp

Sorry about the Morris Twins brain freeze. I am writing a brief about a set of Moncrief twins. Yikes. I contest their heights, because I have seen everything from 6-6 to 6-8, but I saw a lot of 6-7, and the memphis coach uses big players on the wing when he can, so they might have been a threat for PT. But, overall, you are correct. They lose a lot this year, and if their year is as solid as expected (FF run), then their attrition will be huge, a they could be talent light next year. I don't think they were ever a serious threat, but EW wanted to at least look at the local national elite.

Um, about Tennessee, uh, No. JUJUAN Smith is not their starter. RAMER Smith is their starting PG, and he is a Soph this year. He got a late start last year because the NCAA clearinghouse held up his transcripts, but he was a solid player. Many think he can/will develop into a solid first round NBA draft one day. His late start really retarded his learning curve last year, which for a starting PG is steep as we all know. I think he will be a very solid player in the SEC next year. He could be one of the top PGs in the league, now that Steele is redshirting at Alabama.

Baring a fantastic year, he will be back at Tenn (per the roster link above). Depending on how the Duke Crews suspension plays out Tenn will be solid to loaded next year at every position except SG. Given how Pearl has structured his O arround the departing Lofton, you know Pearl is whispering to Williams that he could step right into the starting lineup at Tenn (and play a featured role) on what will be a top 10 team next year, and possibly top 5 (depending on attrition/development both at Tenn and arround the country).

Now, if Duke had Monroe locked up, Duke would be a heavy favorite for the FF next year, and EW might be willing to come to Duke and not start for a truly dominant team, but we do not have GM (yet?). Tenn might be weaker than Duke next year (Definitely if we get Monroe, maybe/probably if we do not get Monroe), but there is a starting slot at Tenn that is wide open. I know EW is very good, but the odds of him starting over Smith, Paulus, Scheyer, Pocius and Henderson during the 08/09 season is very unlikely. Williams will play significant minutes, and be an important player, but he probably won't start. That is just reality. Even if Henderson jumps to the pros this year (it COULD happen), I still don't see EW supplanting one of Paulus, Scheyer, Smith (maybe Pocius, but who knows) to be a starter even if K runs a three guard. Face it, at Tenn he is inked into the starting roster for the 08-09 season the instant he commits.

Again people, Tenn is still really in this with us. They are a strong team going forward, and Pearl has a huge buzz nationally. This could come down to a coin flip, the two are so close. Duke has a great shot, but we should by no means consider ourselves the favorite. Co-favorite is much more likely.

Patrick Yates

[Carlos]

You're right on the JaJuan and Ramar Smith (although JaJuan did start every game for the Vols last season). To make it even more confusing, They also added Tyler Smith who transferred in from Iowa and will play this year thanks to an NCAA ruling. Duke looked at Smith early on as a recruit a couple of years ago but never go serious. Smith signed with Tennessee and then backed out when Buzz Peterson was shown the door. He ended up at Iowa but then his dad was diagnosed with cancer and he ended up transferring back to Tennessee to be closer to his father.


So next year, you can assume that Tennessee will have Ramar Smith at PG, Tyler Smith at SF, Duke Crews at PF, and Wayne Chism at C and absolutely nobody at SG. I see your point...

[vacal]

Patrick is certainly relentless in his animosity towards UVa. The snide and dismissive "this Sylven...", the Ed Davis "nail in the coffin" comments are typical of every post I've seen him make regarding Virginia and not of any other school. You would think UVa kids beat him up and took his lunch money. Well, in any case, Sylven is a high quality player, student and person. Leitao is still in play with some solid recruits and Sylven and Elliot are not mutually exclusive; they are very different players.

[Patrick Yates]

I will try to muster up some sorry for your tender feelings the next time some drunken Wahoos (is this redundant?) fans are questioning the sexuality of one of our players during one of their chants.

This Sylvan, whom I had never heard of, is probably a fine player. But, he purports to play a combo guard position, which is what EW is listed at.

As for slamming your team. Get used to it. You feasted last year by playing the weakest conference schedule of any team. You tied with a redonkulously young UNC team, which everybody, and I mean everybody, agreed to have underachieved last year (despite playing a significantly harder schedule). (For fear of the afore mentioned tender feelings I will leave out your ACC tourney and NCAA "successes")

And I will be the first to admit, as I have vociferously, that Duke ended its own season in a urine-poor fashion.

You can take this as a slam if you want. Last year's team lost 2 of its 3 best players. After this year's top 2 players, the talent level nose-dives. The recruits you are bringing in are fine, as ROLE players. Role players do just that, play roles. Specifically, supporting roles to superstars. You are lacking a central talent once Singletary leaves (who will he pass to?).

Next year, there will be no superstar PG to carry the team. Your post rotation, which this year is one of the few of the conference teams that is behind Duke's, is not going to be benefitting from the presence of Ed Davis (can't he see the campus from his house? Nice one) next year, who will be at UNC (thanks for that by the way).

I simply do not see the optimism. Williams has said, on numerous occaisions, that UVA made it to his final four because Leitao was the first to recruit him. The Tenn build up to men's bb is big in the state this year. Duke is Duke. UVA was a good (but nowhere near great) team last year, and lost 2 of its 4best players. The SG, a great talent, but the easiest position to replace, and the best interior player are now gone. The replacements are not world beaters (except for this Sylvan, who plays the same position as EW).

Beyond the lack of Ed Davis himself, that miss has got to signal to EW that Leitao might, just might possibly conceivably maybe-in-the-realm-of-possibility, have trouble putting quality players arround EW (hey Elliot, head to UVA so you can see what it is like to be blanketed by the opposing squads 2 best perimeter defenders).

Also, who gets EW the ball once Singletary is gone. His replacement appears to be hiding with the WMD's in Iraq.

Patrick Yates

[vacal]

The length and tone of your reply pretty much confirms my observation. In any case I disagree with your evaluation. As far as Davis is concerned, for those familiar with the situation, once his Dad got involved, there was no chance Ed would end up anywhere other than UNC. Check a map,Charlottesville and Chapel Hill are both a decent drive down the interstate.

[Duke79UNLV77]

http://uga.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=1&mid=101689182&sid=878&tid=101689182&style=1

[Ignatius07]

I know E. Williams has his last official visit coming up this weekend, to Memphis I believe. What is the word on when he plans to announce? I seem to recall it was relatively soon after this last visit, but I don't actually know.

[Patrick Yates]

Now that Williams is done with his visits, he is going to have is official in-home visits from coaches, with Duke coming last. He will then make his decision. He wants to get this over with before his season ends, so I would expect that his decision will come sometime in the next month or so.

Patrick Yates

[rockytopper]

Elliot had a great visit at Tennessee this past weekend as expected. Truly a great kid with a very good head on his shoulders. I don't think the Memphis visit will factor in and I don't feel that the Tigers have much of a shot. When all is said and done it's likely down to UT and Duke, with UVA a darkhorse albeit a viable one. Needless to say he'll be an immediate impact player for any of the three programs and regardless of who he chooses he can't go wrong. UT - Pearl is resurrecting a sleeping giant which has been dead for 25 years including Buzz putting the nail in the coffin. New facilities, We have his degree program. Could represent his home state. Closer to home, and girlfriend attends UT-Chat, SEC
Duke - tradition, coack K, excellent academically, ACC, and like Knoxville and Charlottesville just a great part of the country, tradition of Cameron Indoor.
UVA - ACC, good tradition, like coach K and coach Pearl - Williams has a great relationship with Laito. excellent academically, new facilities.

Though a hard decision for Elliot it's a win-win wherever he chooses.

[Ignatius07]

He hasn't had his in-home visits yet? I know a while ago he supposedly rescheduled his Duke in-home, so I figured he also had it a while ago.

Anyway on a UT board I was looking at several posters think UVA is the frontrunner for whatever reason. Obviously at this point this is mostly guesswork though.

[rockytopper]

I guess it could be UVA but the majority I've read is that it's a Tenn/Duke battle. You never know with recruiting though.

[Indoor66]

I guess it could be UVA but the majority I've read is that it's a Tenn/Duke battle. You never know with recruiting though.

...or what anybody really knows.

[SilkyJ]

and girlfriend attends UT-Chat, SEC


interesting....I wonder how much that will affect his decision.

Not to mention with lofton leaving and Duke LOADED on the wing, UT would present a bigger opportunity for him to shine in the near-term.

[Ignatius07]

I think he will pick Tennessee - we just have too many quality wings ahead of him. I'm not saying he couldn't eventually beat them out, but his freshman year he would have a huge battle to earn minutes. Of course, Williams might be the type of player who loves that type of challenge.

[jimsumner]

Keep in mind that in recent years Duke has played three guards most of the time and that Nelson will finish up this season, most likely taking 28-32 mpg with him. There definitely would be competition but there is playing time available for EW. And that assumes no attrition.

[watzone]

I think he will pick Tennessee - we just have too many quality wings ahead of him. I'm not saying he couldn't eventually beat them out, but his freshman year he would have a huge battle to earn minutes. Of course, Williams might be the type of player who loves that type of challenge.


Assuming all the wings return ...

[ACCBBallFan]

Keep in mind that in recent years Duke has played three guards most of the time and that Nelson will finish up this season, most likely taking 28-32 mpg with him. There definitely would be competition but there is playing time available for EW. And that assumes no attrition.

What Jim said but also that Duke next year will know whether Zoubek, Lance, and King can be effective as post defenders and also whether Greg Monroe came to Duke or went elsewhere, which could open up even more minutes for perimeter guys if K does not like what he found out and goes with Singler plus 4 wings later this year and next year.

That would open up more time for Elliot Williams, Nolan Smith, Marty Pocius, Jon Scheyer and Greg Paulus, whether Gerald Henderson stays as I think he will or not.

I personally think that Zoubek and Lance and King will be better post defenders and more of an Offensive threat than most are giving them credit for, but if not, even more PT available for Elliot Williams if he comes.

[Patrick Yates]

Assuming all the wings return ...

Assuming is harsh, but, realistically, everyone but Hendo will definitely be back. Some do not agree with me, but I think Hendo is 70/30 to return, based solely on potential. He is likely to be back, but he won't know (unless he HAS already decided and did the stand up thing and alerted the Staff, which it seems like he would do) for sure until the end of the season.

Heck, even if he were decided, one way or the other, that could easily change with either a strong or less than steller season. Regardless, he won't know for sure until the end of the year, and neither will Williams.

Assuming he goes (which I don't), we still have Smith, Paulus, and Scheyer in the backcourt, with a solid Pocius (assuming he is still in the mix) off the bench. Also, if, as others on the board assume, we either get Monroe, or LT and Zoubs develop, Duke might slide back to a 2 guard alignment next year. If the other two develop (or Monroe arrives), Singler would be freed up to play a Dunleavy like 3 slot next year, really mixing it up inside and out. I imagine that King might be playing some major minutes at the 3 next year as well, further restricting minutes available to guards (assuming Hendo is gone, cause if Hendo is back he plays, a lot at the three next year). This would push one of the returnees (probably Smith) to the bench, but he would play major minutes.

Regardless, all this is ASSUMING things we, and Mr. Williams, have no way of knowing prior to the end of the year, long after he has made his decision and signed.

Assuming Tennessee is our main comp (I apologize to any UVA fans, but UT/Duke are percieved to be the lead dogs in the race), Tenn is not as wide open as I originally thought. It is true that Lofton grads this year, seemingly opening up a monster hole at the SG slot. But, UT has a transfer from Arizona (name escapes me) who gets eligible at the semester break. He was a five star as a HS senior, who never quite gelled under Olsen (translated: pitched a Hissy about splitting minutes at the loaded wing slot at Zona last year and was promptly pointed stage left). Now, no one knows how this kid has looked in practice, but he has a few years of eligibility left, and he too plays the SG, so the UT SG slot has some comp also.

That said, no one would be shocked if Ramer Smith, UT's starting PG is the SEC's premeir PG (get better soon Ron Steele) this year. If, and this is a big if, he is very good this year, he could jump. At most, his Jr year (08-09) will be his last at Tenn. So, if Williams wants to maybe transition to PG, or at least play a combo, the minutes will definitely be available then. Of course, by then, Duke will also have a ton of minutes on the perimeter, so that is a wash.

While the comp at UT is definitely far less than Duke (barring the attrition of at least 2 members of Paulus, Scheyer, Pocius [has anyone heard something no one else knows yet?] Smith, AND Henderson), the PG slot at UT is not a gimme for Williams.

Honestly, though it would give me an ulcer, I would advise the kid to wait until april to decide. By then he will know what the situation at Duke and UT is going to be next year. Also, he can maybe see if the UVA situ is not quite as bleak as I personally think it will be once Singletary is gonzo. Bad for fans, but it might result in him finding the best possible situation for Williams, us DBRers be darned.

Patrick Yates

[ACCBBallFan]

Patrick, if concerns with PT were their main criteria, what you say about why rush the decision, wait until more is known after this season plays out, is true for both Elliot Williams and Greg Monroe, despite whatever agita it causes all the fan bases.

However, I suspect both of these guys if anything are over confident in their invincibility,possibly to point of thinking they would be in NBA next year if not for the new rule, and will not have that as the highest priority item in their decision matrix.

Think about it, are the two phrases ready for the NBA and concerned with PT at Duke/TN compatible?

[Patrick Yates]

Patrick, if concerns with PT were their main criteria, what you say about why rush the decision, wait until more is known after this season plays out, is true for both Elliot Williams and Greg Monroe, despite whatever agita it causes all the fan bases.

However, I suspect both of these guys if anything are over confident in their invincibility,possibly to point of thinking they would be in NBA next year if not for the new rule, and will not have that as the highest priority item in their decision matrix.

Think about it, are the two phrases ready for the NBA and concerned with PT at Duke/TN compatible?

I agree with you regarding Monroe, not so much regarding Williams. I am sure that Elliot is a great player, but, he plays essentially the most stocked position in basketball, SG. He will have to prove that he can play some combo g, or at least that he is a otherwordly talent as a SG before he goes pro. I highly doubt Williams would consider the preps to pros route, regardless of the rules. Only 2 guards have made the jump, Livingston and Marbury's cousin (who has since disappeared?).

Livingston, who was much more highly regarded than Williams as a Sr, was not a slam dunk once he got there. Given their shakey performances, the pros were a little gunshy about guards strait to the pros. Frankly, there are quite a few 6-4, 185 lb guys that can play a little bit. The pros do not draft guys that size on potential, they draft them on production. Williams has a lot of tools, but he needs to bulk up a little and prove he can excell, if not dominate, at this level before the pros come calling. Barring a shockingly good frosh year, he will need a minimum of 2 years, and 3 would only serve to really prepare him for the L.

Williams must prove he belongs in the NBA, he is no lock to make it. Really, there are only a few of those in any year, and there may be only 1-3 this year (and maybe none, it is a weak year). Williams will need plenty of PT and shots to make it to the pros. There is more of that available in the short term at Tenn than at Duke, probably.

Williams, far more than Monroe, would benefit from taking his time. He is now in a situation where either of his top 3 would save a scholly for him, and at least 1 would for sure, even if the others moved on (and a darkhorse WOULD emerge over the year).

Monroe would, and likely will, benefit from the wait and see approach. Sure, he can go anywhere, and play a lot. But, he might wait and go to the school that HAS to feature him out of necessity. It would speed his trip to the pros.

Patrick Yates

[ACCBBallFan]

Patrick - I don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying, just whether Elliot Williams would be so cerebral and discount his NBA prospects as much as you show history has shown.

At 18, everybody thinks he is a superman, and PT is somebody else's problem, not theirs, and based on that short video, not sure he would not have as good a chance as anybody, though years in the Duke system certainly help one know K's expectations better. Just look at each freshman's comments this pre-season

[Patrick Yates]

Patrick - I don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying, just whether Elliot Williams would be so cerebral and discount his NBA prospects as much as you show history has shown.

At 18, everybody thinks he is a superman, and PT is somebody else's problem, not theirs, and based on that short video, not sure he would not have as good a chance as anybody, though years in the Duke system certainly help one know K's expectations better. Just look at each freshman's comments this pre-season

In general, I agree with you. Most HS recruits think they are (and are generally treated like) god-kings of all they survey. As a result of being the best players at their HS's they truly think they are pro-material.

So does Williams (about the pro thing, not the deity bit). But, I think he and his parents are a little smarter than the average recruits family. I think they know that he can go pro, not that he will. I honestly believe this is the type of family to sit down and way all the factors.

I am not saying that the PT is the greatest factor, but it is a significant factor. They will evaluate all aspects of the program. We have a lot of wings in 08-09 right now. Losing Hendo to the pros would certainly lessen that logjam, but there are already 3 guys who will play major minutes next season even without Hendo. UT has only 1 guy in direct comp with Williams.

Now, maybe he likes our facitilities, fans, educational rep, or coaches more than at Tenn (none a lock except for education), but it depends on how much.

Suppose he likes both schools approximately the same ammount. Suppose he favors Duke by a razor thin margin for whatever reason. If he stops to think about it, he may be swayed by the prospect of being a featured player at UT vs fighting for minutes at Duke.

This is not a slam on his competitiveness, and I don't want the board to do that passive agressive malarky where they opine that Duke doesn't need kids who aren't competitive. Going to a school where there are upperclassmen, and a coach who likes upperclassmen, ahead of you is daunting for a HS kid. He wants to compete in games, not in practice. He may want practice to be about getting ready for the next game, not trying to get on the floor.

I am not saying K is like this, cause I don't know, but a lot of coaches have favorite players. If all other things are equal (or close) the favorite player gets on the floor. If there are a lot of players at a position, the odds of this must seem greater to an incomming frosh.

Patrick Yates

[yancem]

Now, maybe he likes our facitilities, fans, educational rep, or coaches more than at Tenn (none a lock except for education), but it depends on how much.

Suppose he likes both schools approximately the same ammount. Suppose he favors Duke by a razor thin margin for whatever reason. If he stops to think about it, he may be swayed by the prospect of being a featured player at UT vs fighting for minutes at Duke.

This is not a slam on his competitiveness, and I don't want the board to do that passive agressive malarky where they opine that Duke doesn't need kids who aren't competitive. Going to a school where there are upperclassmen, and a coach who likes upperclassmen, ahead of you is daunting for a HS kid. He wants to compete in games, not in practice. He may want practice to be about getting ready for the next game, not trying to get on the floor.

Patrick Yates

I'm not sure that this is the case for many recruits but if I were a star player winning conference/national championships would be high on my priority list. Especially if I only planned on staying a year or two.

Who's college career would you rather have, Marvin Williams who won a national title and while he was only role player was still drafted number 2 or Kevin Durant who was a star at Texas but didn't win anything and was also drafted number 2.

Now granted I would rather have Durant's pro career, he should be much better than Williams(school selection has nothing to do with this), but they were drafted at the same spot and signed basically the same contract (the fact that Williams was drafted by Atlanta can't be helped).

So which would you rather have a player of the trophy or a championship ring? Me I want the ring. Of course there are no guarantees of winning a championship no matter where you go too school. There is also no guarantees that your game will translate at the college level the way Durant's did either.

[Patrick Yates]

I'm not sure that this is the case for many recruits but if I were a star player winning conference/national championships would be high on my priority list. Especially if I only planned on staying a year or two.

Who's college career would you rather have, Marvin Williams who won a national title and while he was only role player was still drafted number 2 or Kevin Durant who was a star at Texas but didn't win anything and was also drafted number 2.

Now granted I would rather have Durant's pro career, he should be much better than Williams(school selection has nothing to do with this), but they were drafted at the same spot and signed basically the same contract (the fact that Williams was drafted by Atlanta can't be helped).

So which would you rather have a player of the trophy or a championship ring? Me I want the ring. Of course there are no guarantees of winning a championship no matter where you go too school. There is also no guarantees that your game will translate at the college level the way Durant's did either.

A couple of points.

Williams is not in the same tax bracket as Durant. William's tax bracket needs the hubble telescope to see Durant's tax bracket.

For elite professional athletes, of which Durant is a member and Williams is not, Contracts are a tiny fraction of their income, especially as a rookie. Williams signed a deal for approximately 11 million dollars over three years. Durant signed that same contract, adjusted for inflation.

Durant signed a shoe endorsement deal for 60 or so million dollars.

Williams signed a shoe deal whereby he gets free shoes (probably a few sheckles, but it is probably under a million a year).

Durant signed Drink, video game, and trading card endorsement deals, each one numbering in the millions.

Williams routinely buys Drinks, video games, and trading cards.

So, no, Williams and Durant are not making the same thing.

And another thing, and this applies to every one on the board. Get off your high horses about next year.

Duke being a national elite hinges on 3 things.

1. Greg Monroe committing.
2. Singler returning.
3. Henderson Returning.

The last two are probable, but not certain. There is at best a 50/50 shot regarding the first.

Will we be good next year, even witout Monroe? Yes, probably.

Guess what? So will Tennessee. The only player of note they lose is Lofton (juJuan is solid, but already replaced via transfer). The rest of the team, many of whom will be competing for all-conference this year and beyond, will return.

In fact, Tenn is rated higher than Duke this year. Tenn loses a starting guard, so does Duke (albeit Tenn will miss theirs more). If Willams goes to Tenn, and their players return (as expected), then Tenn will be a top 5 team next preseason, and a favorite for the final four. And, Tenn has a pretty solid class coming in next year, a group that would move into the top 10 or so depending on Williams and one other SF/PF strongly considering Tenn.

In 08-09 Duke might be better in the preseason, but not by much. It is not as if Duke will be in a different class than Tenn. Duke will probably be considered to be a slightly better member of the same elite group as Tenn.

If Williams goes to Tenn instead of Duke, his odds of winning an NC might go down by 3-5%, at most. It is not like Tenn is FSU or Ole Miss in terms of talent. Pearl is loading up for Bear. If Williams goes to Tenn, it could be the start of big things in Knoxville.

Patrick Yates

ps Temper the talk about 08-09. Some of the things we are counting on might not come to pass.

[Ignatius07]

I would add another requirement for Duke being a national elite in 08-09:

4. Good point guard play

And I think that is probably most important. Maybe Paulus will have developed into a good pg by then, it's very possible. Or perhaps Smith will be good enough to start. But if Smith is really more of a 2-guard and Paulus simply rises from mediocre to average, Duke has absolutely no realistic chance of truly being elite.

[hondoheel]

http://rivalshoops.rivals.com/barrier_noentry.asp?sid=&script=content.asp&cid=727640&fid=&tid=&mid=&rid=


Anyone know when the date is? What are the feelings on this board on where he will go?

[Patrick Yates]

http://rivalshoops.rivals.com/barrier_noentry.asp?sid=&script=content.asp&cid=727640&fid=&tid=&mid=&rid=


Anyone know when the date is? What are the feelings on this board on where he will go?

Don't know what the date is, and don't know where he will go. Most feel that it is down to Duke and Tenn, with UVA as a potential darkhorse.

The Monroe miss might inpact his decision, but that is pure speculation.

There are valid arguments for both Tenn and Duke, and UVA has had some recent recruiting success that might impact his decision there (both Good and Bad, but more good than bad). I don't think anyone knows.

Patrick Yates

[VAGentleman05]

He's set Nov. 2 as the date. I agree with you all that Memphis is probably the least likely of all, but NEVER underestimate how low Calipari will sink to land a big-time recruit. My sense is that Elliot is above Cal's tactics, but recruiting is a tricky business...

[hondoheel]

Probably good news for Duke that he isn't committing shortly after his last official. UNC target Iman Shumpert is set to announce tomorrow, fresh off his visit to Marquette. Most likely that's where he's headed.

[Ignatius07]

I can understand your thinking on that Hondo, but if that's your only reason for suspecting that, consider the possibiliy that Shumpert already had been thrilled with a previous school and just needed to make sure Marquette didn't overwhelm him enough to change his mind.

Anyway, here's hoping Williams picks Duke. If he picks UVA, what a turnaround that would be for a program many were lambasting recently for not landing any big-time recruits.

[VaDukie]

I hope Duke but at this point expect Tennessee. He'd slide in for Lofton with a team that will still be very good next year.

[Patrick Yates]

I hope Duke but at this point expect Tennessee. He'd slide in for Lofton with a team that will still be very good next year.

I know that I posited this theory a while back, and I still believe it. But, I did forget about J.P. Prince. This guy is a 6-6 SG who was a 5 star recruit out of HS. He got caught up in the logjam on the wing at Arizona and transferred out. He gets eligible at Christmas, and he will get some minutes at SG. So, I don't know. Duke, Tenn, and UVA either have quality guys at SG (and PG), or guys already committed.

I too think that Memphis was a courtesy visit to the local program, but their backcourt sitch is more fluid, with key members exiting their program. Very Darkhorse situation, but it would be more of a surprise than a Shock.

And for all the nation's griping about Caliperi, no mud has ever really stuck to him. He brings in kids with questionable histories, but John Thompsen was glorified for it at G-Town. Cal simply exercises less discipline on the kids. I don't think the Williamses will go for this, but, PT is there.

But, again, UT looks like a good situation, better even than Duke or UVA (this is the order of the finish I predict). But you can't count out the ACC, ever.

Patrick Yates

[JasonEvans]

I know Calipari has never officially been caught, but I know folks who are close to the college basketball recruiting scene and Cal is widely regarded as the most corrupt major coach out there. I know a guy who works the AAU scene who says Memphis is well-known for handing out envelopes with hundred dollar bills stuffed inside.

--Jason "Cal is even more corrupt than Huggy bear, which takes some work" Evans

[Clipsfan]

I know Calipari has never officially been caught, but I know folks who are close to the college basketball recruiting scene and Cal is widely regarded as the most corrupt major coach out there. I know a guy who works the AAU scene who says Memphis is well-known for handing out envelopes with hundred dollar bills stuffed inside.

--Jason "Cal is even more corrupt than Huggy bear, which takes some work" Evans

Somehow that wouldn't surprise me at all. It's sad, but I'd be much more surprised if I learned that he doesn't pay players/influencers.

[dkbaseball]

I can understand your thinking on that Hondo, but if that's your only reason for suspecting that, consider the possibiliy that Shumpert already had been thrilled with a previous school and just needed to make sure Marquette didn't overwhelm him enough to change his mind.

Tom Crean gets a LOT of credit with players for having developed Dwyane Wade. He took a talented swing guard, Wes Mathews, right out from under UWisconsin's nose, mainly for that reason. Mathews lived in Madison, and his father had played for UW.

Shumpert's a Chicago boy, isn't he? I imagine he can seeing himself going just up the road to Milwaukee, and following in DWade's footsteps.

[hondoheel]

Ignatius, there is another reason a lot of posters at IC think Shumpert is headed elsewhere. UNC already has PG commits from the 2008 (Drew) and 2010 (Marshall) classes, and Shumpert has said he wants to be solely a point.

[Ignatius07]

In that case, considering how big of a recruit Marshall is (though who knows with a sophomore) I really doubt Shumpert will go to UNC.

[Got_Duke]

call me a skeptic, but I think Duke may miss out on Williams

what is urging me to say that, you ask? I know for a while there every duke site was pushing the idea that Duke has got a solid lock on Monroe and what happened? He surprised EVERYONE. At the least everyone was saying Monroe would definitely VISIT Duke and THAT didn't even happen

so yes I'm a little skeptical at this point

I believe his list looks like this, NOTE: my OPINION

1.Tennessee
2. Duke
3. UVA
4. Memphis

[VaDukie]

call me a skeptic, but I think Duke may miss out on Williams

what is urging me to say that, you ask? I know for a while there every duke site was pushing the idea that Duke has got a solid lock on Monroe and what happened? He surprised EVERYONE. At the least everyone was saying Monroe would definitely VISIT Duke and THAT didn't even happen

so yes I'm a little skeptical at this point

I believe his list looks like this, NOTE: my OPINION

1.Tennessee
2. Duke
3. UVA
4. Memphis


I think that's the consensus order right now.

[dukediv2013]

I saw Elliot Williams on campus with Nolan Smith during the weekend he was in Durham for his visit. He seemed to really connect with Nolan, as they went everywhere together. I am not going to say this is a lock, but the Duke players showed a lot of hospitality to EW. I really hope he comes. He seems like a Duke player, and I think he would be a great fit for this team!

[JasonEvans]

I saw Elliot Williams on campus with Nolan Smith during the weekend he was in Durham for his visit. He seemed to really connect with Nolan, as they went everywhere together. I am not going to say this is a lock, but the Duke players showed a lot of hospitality to EW. I really hope he comes. He seems like a Duke player, and I think he would be a great fit for this team!

Nice info, but you are aware that a visiting recruit is assigned a player host whose job it is to hang out with them during their visit. The fact that Nolan and EW were hanging out together is exactly what was supposed to happen and is nothing out of the ordinary.

Getting EW would be nice if only because it may make Patrick Yates take back some of his "its gonna be Tennessee" stuff ;)

--Jason "just funnin' with ya PY" Evans

[kydevil]

Don't forget that Duke has the academics on on our side. Not saying anything bad about UT's Or UVA's academic programs but they're not on the level of Duke's!

[Patrick Yates]

Nice info, but you are aware that a visiting recruit is assigned a player host whose job it is to hang out with them during their visit. The fact that Nolan and EW were hanging out together is exactly what was supposed to happen and is nothing out of the ordinary.

Getting EW would be nice if only because it may make Patrick Yates take back some of his "its gonna be Tennessee" stuff ;)

--Jason "just funnin' with ya PY" Evans

If I am wrong (and it will be my first miss in a while), I will be right here to say mea culpa.

I know that I come off as a glass half empty kinda guy, but as an attorney I always try to consider a worst-case-scenario so that I can help my employers avoid disaster. Also, being my profession pretty much teaches me to expect the absolute worst from my fellow humans.

I want Duke to succeed, to a very high level. Indeed, I expect Duke to win big. But, I expect this to occur because Duke has outworked, outrecruited, and outplayed our opponents, not merely because we are Duke and whoever we put out there is by definition better than every one else. That simply is not true.

Patrick "every one wants me to be wrong about this because if I am not, then what else have I been right about?" Yates

[6th Man]

Since we have lost a few Duke leans here lately, and most feel he might be a Tennessee lean......I say he signs with us. Our turn!

[Ignatius07]

I always thought Williams seemed like more of a Duke guy than Monroe. Not that I wouldn't have loved to have Monroe for next year, I just could never really envision him in a Duke uniform - a highly scientific way to determine if he will commit - for whatever reason.

[Patrick Yates]

I always thought Williams seemed like more of a Duke guy than Monroe. Not that I wouldn't have loved to have Monroe for next year, I just could never really envision him in a Duke uniform - a highly scientific way to determine if he will commit - for whatever reason.

Williams always did seem like more of a Duke guy than Monroe, but I actually felt we had a better chance at Monroe.

The sad/good thing about Duke guys, is that they would be welcomed with open arms anywhere. K tends to target good basketball players with high hoops IQ, who are solid academically, personally, and emotionally. Virtually all of our kids have solid Family situations (even in the Single parent scenario, the remaining parent, and usually some extended family as well, are key roll models in our players' lives. I suspect this makes them more receptive to coaching in that they are not as headstrong or the bad kind of cocky.).

What school wouldn't love to have the type of person I just described? None of them. Sadly, in college sports, it is only truly possible to differentiate yourself (as a School) on the lower end, by accepting kids who could not get in elsewhere. Duke has a little bit of clout on the upper end, but a kid that can get into Duke can go anywhere, whereas Calipari accepts come kids that K, and most others, wouldn't touch. But, kids who gravitate towards a school like Duke do tend to gravitiate away from certain types of programs, such as Memphis. (This is not a crack on Memphis or Calipari. He may be shady, though this has never been substantiated, but he gets results by and large with kids that would drive K batty. Each coach has a formula, and thankfully K's has worked better so far). Seriously, I would love to see the list of kids whose final lists include both K and Calipari.

While I agree that Williams really does seem like a prototypical Duke guy, the PT situation at Tenn is better than at Duke. Next year, 4 of our top 6 players play at his position. At Tenn, there are far more minutes, and shots, available.

Personally, I suspect that Williams's heart is saying Duke, while his head is saying Tenn. Given the disparity in PT and roster situations, it is a testament to K and Duke's drawing power that we are being considered so highly.

As for Monroe, he too was a Duke guy. It just so happened that he is an everywhere kind of guy. Tall, athletic, skilled players fit in on any team in America. I felt that Duke was a school that had a true need for him, and that the national spotlight at Duke would draw him.

I feel like his committment to G-Town is a clear indication that DcCourcy was correct in saying that Monroe wishes to be more of a Swing Forward than Center. G-Town pitched him as the next Green, whereas at Duke he would have been chained to the post. That wasn't what Monroe wanted, so good luck at G-Town (unless you play Duke, then I am pulling for mild food poisoning; nothing dangerous, just enough to keep Monroe on the sidelines for the Second half).

Patrick Yates

[Uncle Drew]

Williams always did seem like more of a Duke guy than Monroe, but I actually felt we had a better chance at Monroe.

The sad/good thing about Duke guys, is that they would be welcomed with open arms anywhere. K tends to target good basketball players with high hoops IQ, who are solid academically, personally, and emotionally. Virtually all of our kids have solid Family situations (even in the Single parent scenario, the remaining parent, and usually some extended family as well, are key roll models in our players' lives. I suspect this makes them more receptive to coaching in that they are not as headstrong or the bad kind of cocky.).

What school wouldn't love to have the type of person I just described? None of them. Sadly, in college sports, it is only truly possible to differentiate yourself (as a School) on the lower end, by accepting kids who could not get in elsewhere. Duke has a little bit of clout on the upper end, but a kid that can get into Duke can go anywhere, whereas Calipari accepts come kids that K, and most others, wouldn't touch. But, kids who gravitate towards a school like Duke do tend to gravitiate away from certain types of programs, such as Memphis. (This is not a crack on Memphis or Calipari. He may be shady, though this has never been substantiated, but he gets results by and large with kids that would drive K batty. Each coach has a formula, and thankfully K's has worked better so far). Seriously, I would love to see the list of kids whose final lists include both K and Calipari.

While I agree that Williams really does seem like a prototypical Duke guy, the PT situation at Tenn is better than at Duke. Next year, 4 of our top 6 players play at his position. At Tenn, there are far more minutes, and shots, available.

Personally, I suspect that Williams's heart is saying Duke, while his head is saying Tenn. Given the disparity in PT and roster situations, it is a testament to K and Duke's drawing power that we are being considered so highly.

As for Monroe, he too was a Duke guy. It just so happened that he is an everywhere kind of guy. Tall, athletic, skilled players fit in on any team in America. I felt that Duke was a school that had a true need for him, and that the national spotlight at Duke would draw him.

I feel like his committment to G-Town is a clear indication that DcCourcy was correct in saying that Monroe wishes to be more of a Swing Forward than Center. G-Town pitched him as the next Green, whereas at Duke he would have been chained to the post. That wasn't what Monroe wanted, so good luck at G-Town (unless you play Duke, then I am pulling for mild food poisoning; nothing dangerous, just enough to keep Monroe on the sidelines for the Second half).

Patrick Yates


I have a feeling Williams will go elsewhere other than Duke because we have so many players at the guard position. Even with Duke playing a three guard two forward line up that's a lot of players competing for minutes. I hope he goes to Duke, he sounds like a Duke type player and a great addition to the team. But for all those who said nothing is wrong with Duke's recruiting as of late after losing Monroe. If we miss out on Williams too are those nay sayers going to call the rest of us "Chicken Little"?

[hondoheel]

As you may have seen, Shumpert picked Ga Tech. So much for staying close to home.

[Patrick Yates]

I have a feeling Williams will go elsewhere other than Duke because we have so many players at the guard position. Even with Duke playing a three guard two forward line up that's a lot of players competing for minutes. I hope he goes to Duke, he sounds like a Duke type player and a great addition to the team. But for all those who said nothing is wrong with Duke's recruiting as of late after losing Monroe. If we miss out on Williams too are those nay sayers going to call the rest of us "Chicken Little"?

Herein lies a huge concern that I have. I will definitely be labled a Chicken Little for this, but whatever.

While the sky might not be falling, it is definitely wandering vaguely downwards.

Even with a Williams miss (and I am pretty sure it will be a miss), the Sky (might) not be falling, at least as far as next year's on-court results indicate.

My fear is that Duke could very well lose ALL of its dominant talent within the next 2 years, if not sooner. As I look at the current roster, I see 3 guys who SHOULD play in the NBA. Nelson, whose athleticism, defense, and all-arround qualities should earn him a late first round selection (which is where he should go, he is a great supporting player at the next level), especially if his ball-handling and shooting continue to improve. We all know that Henderson and Singler will make it to the show, sooner rather than later. But, those three are it as far as the pros. Nelson graguates, so we know he won't be on the roster next year. We all hope that Singler and Henderson return, but there are no quarantees as far as either player is concerned. If BOTH were to leave after this year, the 08-09 season would be unspeakably bleak, (well, mediocre, which for me = bleak). There is a desperate need to replace our best, and most athletic, players.

Now, other players on the team certainly COULD make it to the pros if they hone their games. Scheyer, Thomas, and Zoubek could see a pro roster if they develop their games. I see Paulus as a college guy, whose athleticism may be too much of a question mark for the pros. He'll be a great college coach though. But, while they COULD make it to the pros, there are no certainties there either. They could top out as mediocre to good high major program cogs. Solid, in other words. (I put Smith on the cusp between the Could and Should. Every thing I hear says Should be a pro, but don't know until I see him. But he has better tools than all the coulds)

Every team faces these kind of worries. But, if Duke's 2009 class is not Steller, Duke will be in real trouble. I have no hopes that Singler and/or Henderson will be here beyond the 08-09 season. Their skills, athleticism, and overall games (lone caveat being Henderson's asthma, but if that keeps him from leaving early it will mean that it has severly impacted his effectiveness at Duke) indicate they will be early entries. I hope both return next year, but both could leave this year, and it is highly probable they will leave at the end of next season.

Right now, Duke is recruiting several players in the 09 class. We need several of them to come to Duke.

Missing on Monroe and Williams (should that come to pass) is damaging. No doubt about that, it means next years team is not as good as it could be. But the sky will not be falling. Should everyone else return (higher odds of this than early defection), Duke will be a top 5 or so team next year. But, without an influx of talent from the 2009 class, Duke will fall off a cliff the next year. We need an athlete in the mold of Henderson, a solid combo forward, and a true post (or 2) out of the 09 class, and maybe a PG, depending on Smith. Specifically, we need speedy athletes. Should this fail to materialize, the best coaching in the world won't protect Duke's aura (nor its era) of Dominance. Duke would be just another team.

Patrick Yates

[Ignatius07]

Patrick, I think you make some really excellent points here, but are missing the overall picture. I am glad that you concede the Scheyer, Zoubek, and Thomas all could make the NBA if they develop their games - but I don't think anybody thought when they committed to Duke that they would be less than 3-year players. In fact, nobody should really be surprised by where they are now in terms of progressing towards the next level, although I think some might have anticipated more out of Thomas. Still, 3 years is a long time to improve, and I am confident each of those players will do so, some more than others obviously.

I basically agree with your thoughts on our needs in the 09 class. We basically do need one of everything since we might be skipping (not by choice) the 08 class. If Williams commits though, I think we'd only need a true point and several low post guys.

What I don't buy is that we will be unspeakably bleak (or even mediocre) if Henderson and Singler leave after this year. It will probably take us out of serious title contention - which would be emotionally damaging since many fans have been looking forward to the 08-09 season since JJ and Shelden left - but losing two players from one of the deepest Duke teams in a while will not spell disaster. The freshman-to-sophomore improvement is well noted on this board, and in 08-09 we would have the following players who are at least sophomores: Paulus, McClure, Pocius, Scheyer, Thomas, Zoubek, Smith, King, Czyz. I'm not saying all of the current frosh and soph's will have a big jump, but certainly some of them will. And I don't think it's a good sign if we completely whiff on the 09 class either, as we would have a rough transition the year after. But let's be honest - with Duke looking to sign 4-5 elite prospects (and probably unwilling to not use up the schollies like we were with this recruiting class), I find it unlikely we will not have at least a top-10 class. I think it's more likely we have a top-3 class.

[jimsumner]

"Nelson graguates"

Don't you just hate it when people graguate? :)

FWIW, EW may well go somewhere else. I'm pretty sure even he doesn't know at this point, although I suspect he has some leanings. But to be certain he's isn't coming to Duke is a significant distortion of the reality as I understand it. Duke is very strong with Williams.

I find it interesting that some dismiss Duke's chances of getting EW because Duke is so loaded at the wings. But others seem to feel that Duke won't have any significant talent in the near future. Too much talent to get recruits, not even talent to win championships. A pretty small niche to occupy.

My position is simple. Mike Krzyzewski has successfully recruited at the highest level ever since the Dawkins-Alarie-Bilas-Henderson class told Lefty Driesell, Jim Valvano, Digger Phelps, Guy Lewis and others thanks-but-no-thanks. He doesn't sign everybody he goes after, never has over an extended period of time, don't expect he ever will. But his offer/acceptance ratio is one of the highest ever. Why assume this will suddenly change?

I think we can and will discuss substitution patterns, rotations, tempo and other variables, with the understanding that the guys in the suits on the end of the bench have a pretty good idea what they're doing.

But the idea that Krzyzewski and Duke either have or will develop an inability to recruit and develop top-level talent strikes me as an idea that is contradicted by a sizeable body of evidence. Duke is well-postitioned to have a bonanza with the loaded '09 class. If Duke doesn't, then we can start worrying. But until that IMO unlikely scenario comes to pass, I'm not even remotely worried.

[bbar7502]

heres hoping that we get another great player with the last name williams on friday... anyone got any insight or heard any rumors on what his decision may be?

[Patrick Yates]

This is covered extensively in another thread.

Patrick Yates

[rockytopper]

it's UVA. Leito has done a great job with Williams. He's a great kid and I wish him the best though I sure wish he was going to be a Vol.

[hondoheel]

Ed Davis was a lock for them too.

[Bob Green]

it's UVA. Leito has done a great job with Williams. He's a great kid and I wish him the best though I sure wish he was going to be a Vol.

Do you have an "inside source" you can quote or a link to an article from an established sportswriter? The moderators frown on the practice of spreading rumors on DBR and would prefer you stick to facts or analysis of facts. Thanks!

[Patrick Yates]

Earlier in the process I posted that UVA didn't have the talent to entice Williams. That may have changed. Recently, UVA has gotten several key commits. I could see that swaying Williams with the promise of turning UVA into a power. I still don't see who the PG is, but, Williams may want to play some PG, or one of the recruits could be the PG. Who knows.

Dave has done a great job over the last month or so getting the pieces that would compliment Williams should he go there.

Still, I think it is UT. Might be wrong, but it looks like a good fit for the kid.

Patrick Yates

[Jumbo]

I guess I should go on the record before any announcement that I'm not at all concerned with Williams' decision. The only reason this could become important is if Henderson leaves after this season. Otherwise, Duke returns Henderson, Scheyer, Paulus, Smith and Pocius, so there isn't exactly much "need" on the perimeter. The staff obviously wants him for a reason, and I hope they get him, but I'm not losing any sleep over this one.

[Patrick Yates]

I guess I should go on the record before any announcement that I'm not at all concerned with Williams' decision. The only reason this could become important is if Henderson leaves after this season. Otherwise, Duke returns Henderson, Scheyer, Paulus, Smith and Pocius, so there isn't exactly much "need" on the perimeter. The staff obviously wants him for a reason, and I hope they get him, but I'm not losing any sleep over this one.

I am sure that Williams is going to be a very good player wherever he ends up, but, barring Henderson leaving (which is well within the realm of possibility), Duke is crowded at the guard slot. Even without Hendo, we have 4 capable guys in Paulus, Scheyer, Smith, and Pocius, with King or McClure capable of fillining in, and admirably so, in an emergency (at least on the wing). Add Hendo in and there simply are not a lot of minutes available.

Now, Williams would certainly play, but a miss won't hurt Duke in the long run. Not when Duke can easily get a comprable player from the 09 class at his position.

Still, better Duke than anyone else, right?

Patrick Yates

[Troublemaker]

You guys are right regarding Duke's depth at guard, of course. At the same time, I wouldn't say (not that you have) that the marginal benefit for '08-'09 of adding Williams is zero. If this year's Duke team gives 5 guards (or even 6, with Marty) a lot of minutes to wear on teams with pressure defense, and that becomes an important success-driving factor for the team, it would hurt to not have the same kind of depth available next season. Second, Paulus and Pocius have not proven to be the most sturdy guys health-wise, so if we lose one of them next year, all of a sudden we'd be down to four guards, which makes for shaky depth for an uptempo, ball-pressure style of play. Lastly, pardon my playground cliches, but I'd like to get Elliot Williams because he is sick and nasty and I'd love to have his explosiveness on the team.

[SilkyJ]

it's UVA. Leito has done a great job with Williams. He's a great kid and I wish him the best though I sure wish he was going to be a Vol.

thank god we've got you (a reliable and reputable source) here to tell us about the rumblings.

[SilkyJ]

You guys are right regarding Duke's depth at guard, of course. At the same time, I wouldn't say (not that you have) that the marginal benefit for '08-'09 of adding Williams is zero. If this year's Duke team gives 5 guards (or even 6, with Marty) a lot of minutes to wear on teams with pressure defense, and that becomes an important success-driving factor for the team, it would hurt to not have the same kind of depth available next season. Second, Paulus and Pocius have not proven to be the most sturdy guys health-wise, so if we lose one of them next year, all of a sudden we'd be down to four guards, which makes for shaky depth for an uptempo, ball-pressure style of play. Lastly, pardon my playground cliches, but I'd like to get Elliot Williams because he is sick and nasty and I'd love to have his explosiveness on the team.

And not to mention, that giving him a year of experience under those guys, even if he only plays 10mpg, will be huge for him. He can beef up his body a little and be a much better player when we need him as a soph (09-10 season), when Paulus and marty will be gone, and its highly likely than henderson will have gone by then (hard to see henderson staying past 3 seasons...but maybe)

[Troublemaker]

And not to mention, that giving him a year of experience under those guys, even if he only plays 10mpg, will be huge for him. He can beef up his body a little and be a much better player when we need him as a soph (09-10 season), when Paulus and marty will be gone, and its highly likely than henderson will have gone by then (hard to see henderson staying past 3 seasons...but maybe)

Yep. Another consideration is class balance as well. Getting Elliot would take a little bit of pressure off of recruiting the '09 class. As it stands right now (without Elliot), I think we need a 5+ man class from '09.

[SilkyJ]

Yep. Another consideration is class balance as well. Getting Elliot would take a little bit of pressure off of recruiting the '09 class. As it stands right now (without Elliot), I think we need a 5+ man class from '09.

very good point. class balance is always important in terms of staying consistent over several years.

[Patrick Yates]

No one disputes that Williams is a good player that would help virtually any prgram next year. But no one has labled the kid "sick and nasty," nor have any other descriptive terms been uttered that would connotate Williams being an elite, game changing recruit. I am not talking about him being a Durant or an Oden, those are once in a generation type players.

Williams, even at a school where he can start and play immediately, would not be a star from Day 1. He might/probably be solid to good immediately, and be star-ish by March with a steady diet of minutes and shots. But he is not a superstar, at least not for a few years. While I would love to have him, and certainly, in 3-4 years he could be an All-Conference type performer, the fact remains that he is a player ranked in the 8-17 range in what is universially regarded as an extremely weak class.

We need to put him, and this class, into perpective. He is a fine student, and has a world of potential, but he is not a savior at any high-major school. At UT he is a vital cog in a team that could be a national power next year (but not the team MVP, and probably the 3-4 best starter, at best). At UVA he is a key building block for a team that will be very good starting in 2 years (due to youth and incomming recruits, they would be competitive next year, but would have some growing pains, then look out). At Duke he provides key minutes as a reserve. At Memphis, well, who knows what their roster will look like next year? But none of these schools expect him to star from Day 1?

I fear that many Dukies on the boards want him because we do not have any other shiney new toys to look forward to next year. The year's recruiting has been disappointing with the Monroe miss, and we want a McDs AA (Olek won't be one), cause we always get a McD's AA.

But, a miss on Williams might sting, but it won't hurt. Duke is in excellant position with comparable players in the 09 class. When/if Williams goes elsewhere, I expect that Duke would get an announcement from a similiar player from 09 within weeks, at least one out of Hood, McDonald, or Boynton (although he may wait to see how Smith looks at the PG slot first). Williams, while a great kid, prospect, and addition to the Duke family, is not a must-get. Save your worry for getting a couple of solid bigs out of the 09 class. Those are our must-gets.

Patrick Yates

[SilkyJ]

I fear that many Dukies on the boards want him because we do not have any other shiney new toys to look forward to next year. The year's recruiting has been disappointing with the Monroe miss, and we want a McDs AA (Olek won't be one), cause we always get a McD's AA.


I think the reasons people want him have been stated and have nothing to do with what you are talking about.

As I/Troublemaker stated above having class balance is important for sustained success and not to mention as a "geico" (As I think you put it) as we have been increasingly affected by early departures and transfers as of late.

Not to mention, we have no commits in the '09 class so I am not going to count those chickens before they hatch. Getting ellington is important to me, but not an end of the world scenario if we don't. But no one has made it out be...you just like to overdramatize...

[Classof06]

This is just my perception, but I think there are some Duke fans (including myself at times) who want EW just to assure themselves that Duke hasn't lost its recruiting touch. It's understandable, but what you guys need to realize is that there's a good chance EW wouldn't get much time at all in his freshman year and maybe even his sophomore year. Personally, I don't really care to hear about Duke recruiting until we start landing post players. Looking to the immediate future, this is what this team desperately needs.

I would never ever shun EW from coming to Duke; not only is he a good player but he seems to come from a great family and have a solid head on his shoulders. But losing out on Williams will not keep me up at night. What keeps me up at night is the fact that we are two cheap fouls on Zoubek away from having to alter the landscape of our team in any given game. In some respects, getting EW is like someone giving you a glass of water when you haven't eaten for 5 days; it'll help you get by, but sooner or later you're gonna need that meal...

[watzone]

There are how many game changing recruits in the 08 class Patrick?

He has superior athletcism which translates well into how Duke will play in the coming seasons, meaning running the court. He has the potential to be a great on ball defender, slipping about in the passing lanes for thunderous dunks on the other end. He is very much a Duke-type player in that he is a baller, comes from a great family structure and ... well, Duke wants him. I have the latest up on EW in my premium section. Nobody knows where he is going no matter what they say, but Duke is very much in the race.

[Patrick Yates]

Maybe 4. Monroe, DeRozan, Holliday, Jennings. And all of those are Maybes, each of whom has a significant hole somewhere in their game. These 4 are perhaps the only ones in the class who could go where ever, and start over anyone already in the program.

Last year had 6-7 kids who would DEFINITELY start at any school in America. So no, Williams is not a game changer. Especially since he blew off the last half of the summer competitions (I hear his AAU coach loved how he stuck to his committments), when he WOULD have gone against the other top players in class.

Look, the DBR put on the front page that this was a week class. Virtually every recruiting outlet has done so. The non-premium sites (Fox, Sporting News, ESPN as opposed to Rivals, Scout, and OTHERS) have been extremely frank about this class's quality (or lack thereof). When we missed on Monroe, many posters pointed out, rightfully so, that Monroe might have been ranked behind Singler had Monroe been in last year's class (and some speculated that Monroe might've been outside the top 10 last year).

Given the universally acknowledged mediocrity of the 08 class (and I am being extremely effusive with my praise when I say mediocrity), I feel confident in saying that Williams is not a game changer. He needs polishing, and I sure would like to have known how he handled himself at some of the late summer events.

Yes, he can run, jump, and shoot. But no one has said that he is an elite athlete, merely a good one. No one has compared him to any previous elite shooter. Again, he is widely touted to be a good athlete with good skills. That describes virtually every athlete who will accept a Scholly to an ACC, Big-10, Pac-10, SEC, Big 12 or Big East School. Williams is probably somewhat better than most of the other high major recruits. But he is not lightyears ahead of them. But no one, outside this board, has suggested that he is a superstar in waiting. He might get there, but he might top out as a quality starter for a good team, which is nothing to sneer at.

How many game changers do you see in the 08 class? How many guys are going to come in and be key players immediately, regardless of who is already in the program? At UNC, Davis, their best recruit, might get spot minutes if Hans sticks arround. Even if Hans leave, Davis is not a lock to start over Stephenson and Thompson.

Sure, the WFU trio will play a lot, but their current roster is a wasteland. Aminu, their best recruit in the 08 class, might not crack the lineup if he were going to NCSU with the talent they (will probably still) have in place. At Georgetown, there is no guarantee that Monroe will start. Probably he will, but it is not definite.

This past year, Kevin Love would have started anywhere in the country. Singler too. Mayo, Rose, Gordon, Beasely, and Walker would have displaced the starter at their position at virtually every school in the nation, without question. At those very few programs where they would not have displaced the starter, they would have at least been a starter playing out of their best position, but still likely to dominate. Frankly, I do not see a single player of that caliber in this class. Which players in the 08 class would you put with the above group?

Patrick Yates

[novablue4]

If Watzone does not really have a good idea, that means things are pretty tight about who it will be. I personally think the in state schools will be the top two. But I don't know anything. In July I spoke with the grandfather of a kid on a Tennessee 16 and under team at WVU in Morgantown and he heard that Tenn and Duke were pretty close. Now that was from talking with the kids, not EW or his paerents and it was a LONG time ago. I hope he comes, I like his great explosiveness and the fact that he can cause people to force a double team on the wing and hopefully others will get open.

[Troublemaker]

No one disputes that Williams is a good player that would help virtually any prgram next year. But no one has labled the kid "sick and nasty,"

Honestly, I don't care what recruiting analysts say. I've seen him. He's physically explosive and someone that I would label as "sick and nasty", and I did. I could care less if scout or rivals doesn't label him as such because I trust my own eyes over anyone else's. That said...



Williams, while a great kid, prospect, and addition to the Duke family, is not a must-get. Save your worry for getting a couple of solid bigs out of the 09 class. Those are our must-gets.
Patrick Yates

... I think we know that. As SilkyJ pointed out, there's nothing that was said before your post that indicated that someone felt he was a "must get."



Yes, he can run, jump, and shoot. But no one has said that he is an elite athlete, merely a good one.

He's an elite level athlete. Whether he becomes an elite level basketball player remains to be seen, but he's most definitely an elite level athlete like what Henderson is.

[ACCBBallFan]

No one can possibly know definitively whether Elliot will be a game changer or not, nor even where he will choose Nov 2 for that matter if Watzone has no strong opinion.

I do agree with the class balance concern and the downstream impact on senior leadership a few years down the road, but even that assume she is a 3-4 year guy.

For 2008, the risk is just how much of an incremental improvement, if any, Elliot would be over Marty and insurance against injuries and Henderson's potential flight to the NBA.

For 2009 and beyond, Elliot is a bird in the hand for when Dave, Greg and Marty move on after Nelson leaves this year. He is comparable to a lot of strong 2009 guys but would also have that extra year in the Duke system and with respect to 2009 recruiting be a sure thing from prior year rather than a possibility to come to Duke.

Overall though I share Jumbo's opinion that class of 2008 is not the concern but 2009 has to be a mega class with or without Elliot Williams in the fold.

Elliot Williams would be a valuable addition to the Duke team though, no question, just as he would be for UVA, UT or Memphis. That's why he is being recruited so hard by all 4.

I view Elliot about as valuable as Iman Shumpert was to GA Tech and also view UNC's situation comparable to Duke's. Good if they had gotten him but need a strong 2009 class regardless because time is running out on the Hansbrough-Frasor-Ginyard-Green-Cope class too.

[SilkyJ]

What keeps me up at night is the fact that we are two cheap fouls on Zoubek away from having to alter the landscape of our team in any given game. In some respects, getting EW is like someone giving you a glass of water when you haven't eaten for 5 days; it'll help you get by, but sooner or later you're gonna need that meal...

THROATY - I think we need a 6-M: We need to recruit some big time "bigs"

at any rate, I agree with Cof06, and I like his analogy at the end.



He's an elite level athlete. Whether he becomes an elite level basketball player remains to be seen, but he's most definitely an elite level athlete like what Henderson is.

whoa. Now I haven't seen him play with my own eyes, only on youtube and he's definitely a really good athlete, maybe even elite when you factor in his quickness. But as good as Henderson? He's definitely quicker then Henderson, but he isnt as strong, and are you telling me he can elevate like G? I haven't heard that from anyone...Henderson can touch his head on the rim practically!

[VaDukie]

2 more days, although I'd guess his decision may leak tomorrow.

[watzone]

2 more days, although I'd guess his decision may leak tomorrow.

I'm pretty certain nobody will know until at least noon or after on Friday. The decision will be made at 5:00 EST

[VaDukie]

I'm pretty certain nobody will know until at least noon or after on Friday. The decision will be made at 5:00 EST

You say it, I beleive it. Man they're really keeping this close to the vest!

[speedevil]

Elliot Williams, just check out the retired jerseys at Cameron. #22 and #23 your last name just spells greatness at Duke.

[throatybeard]

I'm pretty certain nobody will know until at least noon or after on Friday. The decision will be made at 5:00 EST

The decision, or the announcement of it?

If it's the decision, I think we've finally revealed Watzone's identity; he's Elliot Williams.