Laettner almost a Heel?

[rotogod00]

Good thing he didn't listen to his mother

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/12919/christian-laettners-mom-was-not-a-fan-of-duke

[DukieBoy]

Good thing he didn't listen to his mother

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/12919/christian-laettners-mom-was-not-a-fan-of-duke

Proof mothers are not always right

[buddy]

Mamas, don't let your sons grow up to be tar heels. (Waylon Jennings probably could make a good song out of that)

[Reilly]

I was walking through the Quad one night with a classmate who had gone to Laettner's high school in Buffalo. I believe it was the Fall of 1987 (CL's senior year of h.s.; might've been spring '87 but believe it was the fall). My friend was a Duke sophomore at the time, so two years older than Laettner, and knew him somewhat. As I recall it, we were not aware ahead of time that CL was even visiting Duke that weekend -- not the recruiting hype and coverage there is today. As we were walking, various crowds were out partying, and my friend just happened to spot Laettner and said, 'hey, there's Christian, he goes to my high school.' So, we went up to talk to him and say hello. CL said something to the effect that he was having a great time visiting and really loved Duke. He said, "I'm supposed to still go visit UNC, but I don't know" ... indicating that he was really in love with Duke at that moment and the decision seemingly made.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

It's startling to think that my greatest hero could have easily been my worst enemy.

[G man]

If he had gone to UNC the big question is would Dukes still be the Duke that we know today? There were good teams before him and after him, but how many NCAA titles would we have? Would we have any? It is something to think about.

[wilko]

If he had gone to UNC the big question is would Dukes still be the Duke that we know today? There were good teams before him and after him, but how many NCAA titles would we have? Would we have any? It is something to think about.

Cant worry about that... Wouldn't change "what is..."

IF if if... we pass cars on the road every day with generally a 4ft cushion in distance from a collision.

Now THAT'S something to think about to give yourself grief over.

[G man]

Cant worry about that... Wouldn't change "what is..."

IF if if... we pass cars on the road every day with generally a 4ft cushion in distance from a collision.

Now THAT'S something to think about to give yourself grief over.

I really was trying to say that we should be grateful for what he means to Duke Basketball. Widely regarded as one of the greatest college ball players of all time we are lucky he decided to play for Duke. That is all. We should appreciate what he did. He helped us get to where we are today and that should not be overlooked! That is what I am trying to say that is all.

[Olympic Fan]

I heard Laettner's mom tell a funny story once about her son's official visit to UNC.

It seems that Dean was showing them Granville Towers, the hotel/dorm where most of the basketball players lived. She said they were riding the elevator up when she said she asked Dean about the Duke-UNC rivalry.

According to her, Dean was just telling her that it was all a creation of the media and between fans, that the players and coaches at the two schools had the greatest respect for each other.

At that moment, she said, the elevator door opened and right across the hall was the door to JR Reid's room -- and it was plastered with &^$ Duke signs and posters -- mostly obscene and more anti-Duke stuff than pro-UNC stuff.

Of course, it was during Christian's freshman year that the always classy (rolls eyes) Dean publically trashed the kid's SAT scores.

[wilko]

I really was trying to say that we should be grateful for what he means to Duke Basketball. Widely regarded as one of the greatest college ball players of all time we are lucky he decided to play for Duke. That is all. We should appreciate what he did. He helped us get to where we are today and that should not be overlooked! That is what I am trying to say that is all.

I got ya. No worries.
My brain is too small to ponder infinite possibilities, ESPECIALLY when they are not pleasure producing possibilities. Not an indulgence for me.

I don't think its possible to overstate what Laettner means to Duke. Aside from the School Color and K as constants; Laettners' shot is on the intro for like 500 games a year (thats an exaggeration, I have no idea how many times it on) but the point carries. To a lot of folks he is still the face of Duke players just by virtue of that play.

[roywhite]

I suppose we could also say that the other 2 stars from those back-to-back national champions, Grant Hill and Bobby Hurley, were "almost" Tar Heels, too. Each grew up as a UNC fan, and Calvin Hill was friendly with Dean.

I love the story of Dean Smith's visit to the Hill home. This was in the fall of Grant's senior year and he was down to basically Duke and UNC. The Hills had a nice dinner at home when Smith visited. Grant remarked something to the effect that..."as he watched Dean Smith's car pull out of the driveway, he realized he would be going to Duke University."

Coach K got the good news shortly thereafter.

[weezie]

Once again, you men (and the espn fellows) may have missed something; ever hear of reverse psychology?!

When all else fails, a hard-headed man must be subjected to the all powerful tears of his mother...at least until he gets married ;)

[G man]

I suppose we could also say that the other 2 stars from those back-to-back national champions, Grant Hill and Bobby Hurley, were "almost" Tar Heels, too. Each grew up as a UNC fan, and Calvin Hill was friendly with Dean.

I love the story of Dean Smith's visit to the Hill home. This was in the fall of Grant's senior year and he was down to basically Duke and UNC. The Hills had a nice dinner at home when Smith visited. Grant remarked something to the effect that..."as he watched Dean Smith's car pull out of the driveway, he realized he would be going to Duke University."

Coach K got the good news shortly thereafter.

I am to young to remember the Dean years, but it does seem to me that most posters seem to have more respect for Dean than old Roy. Is this because it is the past or is it because he truly earned that respect?

[MChambers]

I heard Laettner's mom tell a funny story once about her son's official visit to UNC.

It seems that Dean was showing them Granville Towers, the hotel/dorm where most of the basketball players lived. She said they were riding the elevator up when she said she asked Dean about the Duke-UNC rivalry.

According to her, Dean was just telling her that it was all a creation of the media and between fans, that the players and coaches at the two schools had the greatest respect for each other.

At that moment, she said, the elevator door opened and right across the hall was the door to JR Reid's room -- and it was plastered with &^$ Duke signs and posters -- mostly obscene and more anti-Duke stuff than pro-UNC stuff.

Of course, it was during Christian's freshman year that the always classy (rolls eyes) Dean publically trashed the kid's SAT scores.
But wasn't JR Reid a year behind Ferry? Maybe it was another player's room?

[Orange&BlackSheep]

I am to young to remember the Dean years, but it does seem to me that most posters seem to have more respect for Dean than old Roy. Is this because it is the past or is it because he truly earned that respect?

From Wikipedia:

In 1964, Smith joined a local pastor and a black North Carolina theology student to integrate The Pines, a Chapel Hill restaurant. He also integrated the Tar Heels basketball team by recruiting Charlie Scott as the university's first black scholarship athlete. In 1965, Smith helped Howard Lee, a black graduate student at North Carolina, purchase a home in an all-white neighborhood.

And the fact that he is seemingly universally loved by his players also entitles him to respect.

-----------

That said, to any non-Tarheel he appeared to think he walked on water and is rightfully held with disdain as a basketball coach. But his leadership when compared with Roy is .... well you can't mention them in the same sentence and not giggle.

[OldPhiKap]

I am to young to remember the Dean years, but it does seem to me that most posters seem to have more respect for Dean than old Roy. Is this because it is the past or is it because he truly earned that respect?

I hate Dean more, but that's probably because he was a much better coach.

Say what you want about the Ol' Shnozola -- and I certainly did, much of which would not pass the filters here -- the guy could recruit, plan, develop, and adjust in-game better than most.

[G man]

From Wikipedia:

In 1964, Smith joined a local pastor and a black North Carolina theology student to integrate The Pines, a Chapel Hill restaurant. He also integrated the Tar Heels basketball team by recruiting Charlie Scott as the university's first black scholarship athlete. In 1965, Smith helped Howard Lee, a black graduate student at North Carolina, purchase a home in an all-white neighborhood.

And the fact that he is seemingly universally loved by his players also entitles him to respect.

-----------

That said, to any non-Tarheel he appeared to think he walked on water and is rightfully held with disdain as a basketball coach. But his leadership when compared with Roy is .... well you can't mention them in the same sentence and not giggle.

Thanks I just don't know all that much about the man. I can't say I like or dislike him. I base most of my opinion of him from what people say on this board. If former adversary's respect the man then it is good enough for me.

[RelativeWays]

I've had a bit more respect for Dean as K heads into the home stretch of his coaching career, because I see the parallels between the two. Dean defined ACC basketball much the K has for almost 20 years. As such there is a lot inferred in their motives and actions and the way they handle things. The SAT thing is a great example. UNC fans defend Deans actions as stepping up to defend JR Reid. You'd have to be a bit naive to deny there aren't any racial connotations in a sign that says "JR can't Reid" and given the Schnoze's civil rights background, it makes sense that he'd address it. If he can take a bit of a shot at two Duke kids that spurned UNC, well that's Dean Smith for you. Like the Laettner stomp, its one of the things thats been lionized over the years as some huge controversial breech of ethics, but I remember it when it happened. Dean wasn't really right to do it, K certainly took issue with it, but it wasn't that poorly perceived at the time. In this day and age, who knows how it would be viewed.

[roywhite]

I am to young to remember the Dean years, but it does seem to me that most posters seem to have more respect for Dean than old Roy. Is this because it is the past or is it because he truly earned that respect?

Oh, Dean had his flaws and annoying ways. He really was a master at back-handed compliments, subtle digs, pushing the edge with officials, over-publicizing his team's injuries, and whining about anything that seemed to go in the opponent's favor (particularly Duke).

But compared to Roy:
Dean would have done a better job with a sub-par group like the 2009-10 team
Dean would not have thrown his own players under the bus
Dean actually liked his team's fans
Dean basically had more style than Roy

I liken the changing of the guard at UNC to one of your favorite plays or television series where the understudy is called on to play the role of the villain. You've grown so used to hating that particular villainous character that the understudy is a disappointment. Ole Roy is just not up to the standards of El-Deano.

[wilko]

In 1964, Smith joined a local pastor and a black North Carolina theology student to integrate The Pines, a Chapel Hill restaurant. He also integrated the Tar Heels basketball team by recruiting Charlie Scott as the university's first black scholarship athlete. In 1965, Smith helped Howard Lee, a black graduate student at North Carolina, purchase a home in an all-white neighborhood.

I couldn't figure out if your were looking to tout Smith's virtues or assume some moral hi-ground on the topic of race. I tend to think that Smith and UNC gets too much credit for this when you consider some of UNC's past history (http://www.countercartographies.org/projects-mainmenu-27/14-remapping-the-university/54-a-peoples-history-of-unc-ch) with race issues.

S0me dates of interest:
1796, 1869-1870, 1871, 1875, 1913, 1938, 1938, 1951, 1955, 1963, *1964, 1967, 1969, 1980, 1996....

Odd that the items you tout as success are left off the list.

*With regards to the 1964 note: The sit-ins its entirely possible no mention of Smith or the restaurant but no doubt Smith contributed to the traffic jam.

[77devil]

Let's not forget that when Jerry Colangelo gathered basketball elite in June 2005 to pick a coach to restore USA Basketball, it was Dean Smith who said:

"There’s only one college coach up there who can get the job done — and that’s Coach K."

This was only months after, as you have no doubt remembered, Roy won his first NC, albeit with Doherty's recruits.

[cspan37421]

I couldn't figure out if your were looking to tout Smith's virtues or assume some moral hi-ground on the topic of race. I tend to think that Smith and UNC gets too much credit for this when you consider some of UNC's past history (http://www.countercartographies.org/projects-mainmenu-27/14-remapping-the-university/54-a-peoples-history-of-unc-ch) with race issues.

S0me dates of interest:
1796, 1869-1870, 1871, 1875, 1913, 1938, 1938, 1951, 1955, 1963, *1964, 1967, 1969, 1980, 1996....

Odd that the items you tout as success are left off the list.

*With regards to the 1964 note: The sit-ins its entirely possible no mention of Smith or the restaurant but no doubt Smith contributed to the traffic jam.

IMO true Duke fans are better than this. Dean Smith was a rival coach for years - we envied his success, for good reason. I was at Duke when the "JR Can't Reid" chants were done, and looking back on it, were I in his shoes, I'd have been mightily tempted to call out the Dukies in the same way that he did. No, he shouldn't have revealed the relative SATs of the two players. But it was an object lesson to me - Duke's guy could have just as easily been a Tarheel, and vice-versa. They're recruiting the same kids! And our guys aren't necessarily greater "scholars" than theirs (some are!). So have a little humility, the shoe could have been on the other foot.

Let's face it, Dean is despised because he coached the rival school, not because of who he is as a person. The quips about his nose are about as mature as calling our guy "rat face."

What would you say if you heard Coach K talking positively about MJ? Well, just a couple weeks ago, he did, to the campers at Duke Basketball Camp Session 1. He was illustrating respect, and how Jordan treated him when he was an assistant coach on the Dream Team, and asked Coach K (politely, with respect) to help him work on something. If you think he shouldn't have said that because Jordan was a Tar Heel, I suggest you take it up with Coach K.

I'm proud of our guys, and proud of my school. But demonizing the opposition is juvenile, IMO, and not worthy of a Duke fan. No one is claiming moral high ground by giving Dean Smith credit where credit is due. Sometimes it is due, even to a rival. And the ability to grant credit to a rival is, IMO, a sign of maturity.

[oldnavy]

Oh, Dean had his flaws and annoying ways. He really was a master at back-handed compliments, subtle digs, pushing the edge with officials, over-publicizing his team's injuries, and whining about anything that seemed to go in the opponent's favor (particularly Duke).

But compared to Roy:
Dean would have done a better job with a sub-par group like the 2009-10 team
Dean would not have thrown his own players under the bus
Dean actually liked his team's fans
Dean basically had more style than Roy

I liken the changing of the guard at UNC to one of your favorite plays or television series where the understudy is called on to play the role of the villain. You've grown so used to hating that particular villainous character that the understudy is a disappointment. Ole Roy is just not up to the standards of El-Deano.

Great post ROYWHITE, it sums up my feelings. The one thing that I will add is that I actually thought that I liked Roy when he came to UNC. He seemed like a breath of fresh air after Gut and Doh. That plus he had said that he didn't give a S(&* about Carolina on national TV. Then as I started to watch him coach games and give interviews, I began to see through the facade. Now I have no use for him, and find him tiring to listen to and annoying to watch on the sidelines. I never liked Dean, but I respected him for what he built at UNC. He was an innovater and truly a great coach and most likly a very good man. Roy, eh..... not so much.

[bulldog44]

I've had a bit more respect for Dean as K heads into the home stretch of his coaching career, because I see the parallels between the two. Dean defined ACC basketball much the K has for almost 20 years. As such there is a lot inferred in their motives and actions and the way they handle things. The SAT thing is a great example. UNC fans defend Deans actions as stepping up to defend JR Reid. You'd have to be a bit naive to deny there aren't any racial connotations in a sign that says "JR can't Reid" and given the Schnoze's civil rights background, it makes sense that he'd address it. If he can take a bit of a shot at two Duke kids that spurned UNC, well that's Dean Smith for you. Like the Laettner stomp, its one of the things thats been lionized over the years as some huge controversial breech of ethics, but I remember it when it happened. Dean wasn't really right to do it, K certainly took issue with it, but it wasn't that poorly perceived at the time. In this day and age, who knows how it would be viewed.

You have got to be kidding. "JR can't Reid" has racial connotations? That is so super sensitive and asinine that I am stunned. I mean the guy's last name is Reid which is a synonym for read. It is a common tactic for opposing teams to make fun of the other teams players in whatever avenue possible. A rivalry this heated will poke fun as much as possible. But are you saying that if Reid had been white, asian, indian or any freaking other race that the sign would not have appeared? Or are you saying that whiney super sensitive closet racist people think that since Reid is black then therefore he must have a difficult time reading and doing anything that calls for brain power?

[slower]

I am to young to remember the Dean years, but it does seem to me that most posters seem to have more respect for Dean than old Roy. Is this because it is the past or is it because he truly earned that respect?

As a coach, he was an irritating whiner.

As a human being, he has my respect. Off the court, Dean has earned it.

[MChambers]

As a coach, he was an irritating whiner.

As a human being, he has my respect. Off the court, Dean has earned it.
I agree with this, but just want to say that Matt Doherty is my favorite coach, but if Ol' Roy has a few more years like last year, he could pass Doherty.

[Olympic Fan]

But wasn't JR Reid a year behind Ferry? Maybe it was another player's room?

You are confusing Ferry and Laettner ...

Reid was at UNC from the fall of 1986 to the spring of 1989.

Laettner signed with Duke in the fall 1987 (and arrived in the fall of 1988) -- Reid was definitely at UNC when Ferry was being recruited.

And as for Dean's over-reaction to the "JR Can't Reid" sign, what made it so ridiculous was that "JR Can't Reid" signs had greeted UNC on the road for years -- dating back to Reid's freshman season if 1986-87 -- before he decided to make as issue of it after seeing it at the 1989 Duke-UNC game. The worst thing about the sign was that it wasn't even remotely clever or original.

Dean wasn't offended about the racial aspect of it -- he used it (in typical Dean Smith fashion) to fire up his team, knowing they would have to get past Duke to win the ACC title. Going into the ACC Tournament he created a furor by trashing two young men that he had recruited -- Laettner and Ferry. He pulled a Johnny Cochran, playing the race card -- by pairing the SATs of two black players (Reid and Scott Williams) and comparing their combined scores with two white players (Ferry and Laettner). The trick was that Scott Williams DID have an extraordinarily high SAT -- Reid's was the lowest of the four, but combined with Williams' high score, their total was higher that Ferry and Laettner.

Dean does deserve credit as a liberal on civil rights (among other things), but I've said before, let's not turn him into Martin Luther King. His involvement in integration in Chapel Hill stemmed from his relationship with the Rev. Bob Seymour, his pastor at the Binkley Baptist Church. Seymour was a cvil rights leader -- he enlisted Dean to help integrate The Pines, a restaurant in Chapel Hill that the UNC basketball program used for recruiting visits and team meals.

That was it -- except that on the day in August 1961 when Dean was named head coach, Seymour called him as asked him to break the ACC color line by signing a black player. Dean promised he would -- and then signed Charlie Scott ... FIVE YEARS LATER.

By the time he signed Scott, Maryland and Duke already had black players and Wake signed its first black in the same class as Scott.

Smith was certainly on the right side in the civil rights movement, but he was never out in front, leading the march.

[Orange&BlackSheep]

I think it is easy to take a shot at Dean for not being proactive enough on race as we sit here in 2010. But as a new head coach with no track record, the fact that he was willing to be an active participant speaks volumes. He could have sat in his office but chose to contribute to doing the right thing. It does not make him Martin Luther King -- but name me a basketball coach who was?

[MChambers]

You are confusing Ferry and Laettner ...

Reid was at UNC from the fall of 1986 to the spring of 1989.

Laettner signed with Duke in the fall 1987 (and arrived in the fall of 1988) -- Reid was definitely at UNC when Ferry was being recruited.
You're right. I guess I get all those Duke big men confused!

[Reddevil]

One HUGE reason he will always be respected as a basketball coach is that his teams had the most uncanny knack for winning at crunch time in the history of sports. People often talk about guys like Staubach and Elway for all their remarkable comebacks, but those Dean Smith coached tarheels squeaked out game after game after game at the end. It got so I would only start watching when there were about 4 minutes left, because that's when the REAL game began. In my house we would say, "What's the score?" A response would be something like, "Virginia by 14 with ten minutes left." Followed by, "Too much time - their doomed." Sure enough, UNC would win again. That's what I will always remember about Dean - one aggravating win after another. Remarkable really. He defined the game like Wooden before him, and Coach K now. I respect him kind of like Terry Bradshaw. I hated the Steelers, but have nothing but respect for those guys. They did it, and they did it very well.

[wilko]

But demonizing the opposition is juvenile, IMO, and not worthy of a Duke fan. No one is claiming moral high ground by giving Dean Smith credit where credit is due. Sometimes it is due, even to a rival. And the ability to grant credit to a rival is, IMO, a sign of maturity.

Eh? To each his own.
You have a point, BUT, it has to be FUN for ME.
I can go to seemingly 10K other outlets and hear all the Pro-UNC propaganda I can stomach.
Does it make me a bad person in that I sometimes wish there 1 Duke outlet that wasn't seemingly over-encumbered by an illusion of objectivity. If you know of that place, please let me know I'll check it out if its free.
Until then, here is nice. Its really nice. I like it here.

Please don't assume that what I may say in an Pro-Duke basketball internet forum is how I treat and deal with my UNC friends face to face. That would be a mistake. If being seen as immature is the price I must pay for some occasional fun and a little diversion, then so be it. I can live with that.



I think it is easy to take a shot at Dean for not being proactive enough on race as we sit here in 2010. But as a new head coach with no track record, the fact that he was willing to be an active participant speaks volumes. He could have sat in his office but chose to contribute to doing the right thing. It does not make him Martin Luther King -- but name me a basketball coach who was?

I guess it was easy if you though it was a shot solely at Dean. The intent was to sober up all of the Baby-Blue cool-aid sippers by introducing a few facts to suggest the overall picture for the University is not as rosy as one would like to think based on acts of conscience by a sole basketball coach. A hall of fame basketball coach. Do his actions make up for the sins of the past? I tend to think not, and am not willing to let them off the hook (for anything really), but ultimately its not my decision to make.

I missed the mark on this one. Perhaps one day I'll have that magic something to say that makes them l question their rooting interests to the core. Better luck next time.

[sandinmyshoes]

Eh? To each his own.
You have a point, BUT, it has to be FUN for ME.
I can go to seemingly 10K other outlets and hear all the Pro-UNC propaganda I can stomach.
Does it make me a bad person in that I sometimes wish there 1 Duke outlet that wasn't seemingly over-encumbered by an illusion of objectivity. If you know of that place, please let me know I'll check it out if its free.
Until then, here is nice. Its really nice. I like it here.

.

I suggest you try TDD on scout.com. It's the Duke version of IC. Same nuts, different color.

What has always set DBR apart is that this place has always attempted to be sensible, if not entirely objective. That has frayed a bit with the advent of the new bulletin board software, but it's still way more adult than any of the scout boards.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

You are confusing Ferry and Laettner ...

Reid was at UNC from the fall of 1986 to the spring of 1989.

Laettner signed with Duke in the fall 1987 (and arrived in the fall of 1988) -- Reid was definitely at UNC when Ferry was being recruited.


Who's confused/confusing?

Ferry arrived at Duke in the Fall of 1985. If Reid was at UNC from 1986-1989, how could he have been there when Ferry was being recruited?

[wilko]

I suggest you try TDD on scout.com. It's the Duke version of IC. Same nuts, different color.

What has always set DBR apart is that this place has always attempted to be sensible, if not entirely objective. That has frayed a bit with the advent of the new bulletin board software, but it's still way more adult than any of the scout boards.

Honestly, I like the civility here. Folks can disagree and that's that.

Things don't get all potty mouthed and turn into personal invectives at the slightest hint of not going with herd. I've seen other forums (not the one you cite) go that route all to quickly. Not a fan.

I like it here, really. But if I get a little rah-rah going I don't like being called immature, who would? But then its a small price to pay.

[RelativeWays]

You have got to be kidding. "JR can't Reid" has racial connotations? That is so super sensitive and asinine that I am stunned. I mean the guy's last name is Reid which is a synonym for read. It is a common tactic for opposing teams to make fun of the other teams players in whatever avenue possible. A rivalry this heated will poke fun as much as possible. But are you saying that if Reid had been white, asian, indian or any freaking other race that the sign would not have appeared? Or are you saying that whiney super sensitive closet racist people think that since Reid is black then therefore he must have a difficult time reading and doing anything that calls for brain power?

I'm not saying if Reid were white, that sign wouldn't appear, or that the intent of the sign was racist. It was about as clever as changing JJ to Gay Gay. Regardless, its the perception that a mostly white student body from a private university is making play on a well known black basketball player's last name that he can't in fact read, could be seen as a racist jab. It also wasn't the first time Reid's race and intelligence had been joked about either. People forget that a lot of fans (not just Duke fans) made jokes about J R Reid and his race and appearance and his intelligence, it was not unlike the jokes Patrick Ewing endured during his career at Gtown, though not quite to the degree. Reid was the target of many jokes with racial connotations. I'm surprised other fans who followed the ACC around that time don't remember.

[Olympic Fan]

I think it is easy to take a shot at Dean for not being proactive enough on race as we sit here in 2010. But as a new head coach with no track record, the fact that he was willing to be an active participant speaks volumes. He could have sat in his office but chose to contribute to doing the right thing. It does not make him Martin Luther King -- but name me a basketball coach who was?

Nobody is knocking Dean -- as we have said ... he deserves credit for what he did.

What many of us object to is the deification of Dean on this issue. To many Carolina fans, Dean was a leader in breaking the color line in college basketball -- in fact, to this day, many Carolina fans think Charlie Scott was the ACC's first black basketball player -- he's not (he was tied with Norwood Todmann for fourth -- two years after Billy Jones broke the color line; one year after Pete Johnson and CB Claiborne played).

Dean followed Bud Milliken at Maryland, Vic Bubas at Duke, Bucky Waters at West Virginia and Lefty Driesell at Davidson when it comes to landing a black prospect. He and Bones McKinney at Wake arrived at the same time (Bones signed Norwood Todmann in the same class as Scott).

He claims that he was out there looking for the right black player ... of course, Everett Case always claimed that he was looking for a black player too. Dean always touts Greensboro's Lou Hudson as a player he wanted but couldn't get in -- Hudson said the only Big Four coach to recruit him was Case (and he claims Case wanted him as a walk-on, although he was promised under-the-table support).

Again, I'm not knocking Dean for anything he did or didn't do in this process. I'm only knocking the perception that he was some kind of leader in this area.

[wilko]

Again, I'm not knocking Dean for anything he did or didn't do in this process. I'm only knocking the perception that he was some kind of leader in this area.

Well done. I wish I had said it that way...

[davidson]

Dean followed Bud Milliken at Maryland, Vic Bubas at Duke, Bucky Waters at West Virginia and Lefty Driesell at Davidson when it comes to landing a black prospect. .


Let's not forget that not only did he trail Lefty at Davidson, Charlie Scott was another black recruit who had committed to Davidson before Dean came in at the last minute. According to Mike Maloy, nobody realized Charlie Scott had switched to Carolina until he failed to show up at Davidson for the first day of class.

The fact that Charlie Scott and UNC then kept Davidson out of the final four two years in a row is the source of my everlasting hatred for Dean.

[killerleft]

The Four Corners Era was bad for college basketball. Thus, in the spirit of Dean's own penchant for back-handed compliments, the Schnozz invented the college shot-clock era.

Uh... thanks, Dean.

[Olympic Fan]

Let's not forget that not only did he trail Lefty at Davidson, Charlie Scott was another black recruit who had committed to Davidson before Dean came in at the last minute. According to Mike Maloy, nobody realized Charlie Scott had switched to Carolina until he failed to show up at Davidson for the first day of class.


I don't know if Mike Maloy misunderstood or if you misunderstood Maloy ... but it's absolutely NOT true that no one at Davidson knew he had changed his mind.

Davidson assistant coach Terry Holland was with Scott, Laurinburg headmaster Frank McDuffie and McDuffie's wife when they were refused service at a Davidson restaurant. Scott blew up then and Holland knew he was not coming.

It was a crushing blow -- Driesell had arranged for the New York City kid to come to Lauringburg. He was planning to have Scott and Maloy room together.

McDuffie immediately returned to Laurinburg and called three coaches to tell them Scott was not going to Davidson. Significantly, he called Vic Bubas at Duke, Bucky Waters at West Virginia (who had just integrated the Southern Conference) and Jan Van Breda Kolff of Princeton.

Dean heard that Scott was opening up his commitment from UNC radio announcer Bill (The Mouth of the South) Currie -- a Charlotte TV personality who had gotten the news from his buddy Driesell.

Scott has long told the story that during Smith's first visit to Laurinburg that spring, Lefty jumped out from behind a bush to ambush them and plead with Scott not to back out of his commitment.

Again, not suggesting that Smith or Scott or Driesell did anything wrong in this ... only that the story that Scott kept Driesell and Davidson in the dark is clearly untrue.

You are right that Scott helped kill Davidson in two straight East Regional finals. Actually, Rusty Clark was the big gun in the '68 East Regional finals in Raleigh (22 points and 17 rebounds in a four-point UNC win). Scott was okay (18 points), but the absence of Doug Cook, who missed the game with a hip pointer, was probably a bigger factor in the outcome.

It was the next year --1969 in College Park -- where Scott took out his anger at the racist All-ACC voters by almost single-handedly dismantling Davidson -- 32 points, including the game-winner at the buzzer from just inside the top of the key.

The next day, Lefty toured the Maryland campus and the day after that, he was introduced as the new Terp coach.

[roywhite]

I don't know if Mike Maloy misunderstood or if you misunderstood Maloy ... but it's absolutely NOT true that no one at Davidson knew he had changed his mind.

Davidson assistant coach Terry Holland was with Scott, Laurinburg headmaster Frank McDuffie and McDuffie's wife when they were refused service at a Davidson restaurant. Scott blew up then and Holland knew he was not coming.

It was a crushing blow -- Driesell had arranged for the New York City kid to come to Lauringburg. He was planning to have Scott and Maloy room together.



That's an interesting story, hadn't heard it.

Frankly, I'm surprised about the group of 4 being denied service at a Davidson restaurant, especially with Terry Holland being there. This would have been about 1965?

I wouldn't think the racial climate at that time would have been much different in Davidson, NC than Laurinburg, NC.

[-jk]

That's an interesting story, hadn't heard it.

Frankly, I'm surprised about the group of 4 being denied service at a Davidson restaurant, especially with Terry Holland being there. This would have been about 1965?

I wouldn't think the racial climate at that time would have been much different in Davidson, NC than Laurinburg, NC.

Well, I have the utmost confidence in Olympic Fan's histories. And NC was quite varied during the era.

-jk

[davidson]

Well, I have the utmost confidence in Olympic Fan's histories. And NC was quite varied during the era.

-jk

While his posts are usually on the money, he is wrong here.

Scott was not with McDuffie when the incident happened. Not true.

[Olympic Fan]

While his posts are usually on the money, he is wrong here.

Scott was not with McDuffie when the incident happened. Not true.

While I hate to be one of those guys who can never let anything go, this is really a good example of how hard it is to nail down history. I know that Scott has offered several versions of this story. For instance, on page 108 of Barry Jacobs' 2008 book "Across the Line", he quotes Scott as saying his WAS there with Holland, the McDuffies (husband and wife) and -- in this version -- with Lefty Dreisell, who he claims got into a big argument with the waitress who wouldn't serve them.

The version I related -- that it was Scott, the McDuffies and Holland -- was the version Charlie Scott told me in the mid-1970s ... I got it directly from him. He told me that he and Driesell had visited the restaurant (I forgot the name, but according to Jacobs, it was The Coffee Cup) and he had been served. His point was that when he returned with two older blacks -- and the unknown assistant coach -- they were refused service. He used that to explain why, during his recruiiting visit to UNC, he slipped away from his host, Dick Grubar, to see how he would be treated in Chapel Hill as a nameless black teenager.

Certainly it was the refusal of that small Davidson restaurant to serve a party that probably included the McDuffies and Holland and may or may not have included Scott that led to his re-opening his recruitment.

However the details played out (maybe if somebody on this board runs across Holland at an ECU function in the near future, you can ask him), but my original point is still almost certainly true -- Driesell knew from the beginning that Scott had re-opened his commitment ... I repeat, Dean Smith only learned of it from Bill Currie, who learned of it from Driesell.