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vango
05-25-2007, 03:44 PM
....and the team thinks Zoobs performance is pivotal....

http://community.foxsports.com/blogs/goodmanonfox

JasonEvans
05-25-2007, 03:56 PM
....and the team thinks Zoobs performance is pivotal....


Pivotal... I get it. Clever.

-J

madscavenger
05-25-2007, 04:31 PM
Thats not necessarily a compliment. How many turnovers under the basket did he have last year (per minute played). My memory is too many. :eek: He does need to cut down a little, but he'll get a lot more personal instruction this year, so i'm not worried about that. Now fouls are another story and thats an area where PP will be missed regardless of who was starting.

Wander
05-25-2007, 04:52 PM
Thats not necessarily a compliment. How many turnovers under the basket did he have last year (per minute played). My memory is too many.

I don't have any way of confirming this, but I've heard that last year Zoubek led the thousands of Division I college basketball players in turnovers per minute.

ikiru36
05-25-2007, 05:22 PM
Man can people turn a deservedly positive thread negative, in a hurry.

Well done!!!

Go Greg!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go Brian!!!!!!!!!!!! Go Devils!!!!!!!!!!!! GTHCGTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

madscavenger
05-25-2007, 05:34 PM
Recognize reality, work hard and go for it. Then good things happen. Not intended as negative - just constructive criticism.

Cheers (GTHC).

DukieUGA
05-25-2007, 05:49 PM
Well it's good that Greg is being honest now and getting medical attention, too bad that the med staff didn't restrict him for longer at the begining of last year. Maybe his foot would not have healed at any point during the year last year without surgery, and we would have certainly been worse off w/o him last year. Hopefully last year's poor D and lack of blow-by off the dribble were the result of the un-spoken-of-but-oft-assumed lingering of the foot injury. Even so, as a So. last year GP had a decent year. His shooting was excellent from 3 and he developed a realnice leaner once free in the lane with both hands. HIs ball-handling and decision-making were extremely variable, which was the frustrating part of his game. Some days both were excellent followed by a game or two where they were terrible followed by a good game, giving us the hope that he was rounding back to permanent good PG form, only to be followed by an even worse game. I hope that a year of experience, a full medical recovery/resolution of the foot injury, graduation of upper-classmen will prove good to Greg.
I dogged him at times last year, i'll admit it, but by the end of the year i was a big fan of his shooting. Even if he doesn't up his Asst/game but only improves his Ast/TO ratio, i'll be happy with his game if his shooting stays so consistent as last year (and hopefully it'll improve 1) withe addition of 2 more outside threats 2) a one-year-more-experienced Scheyer and 3) general improvements from the rest of the team). Greg's play was alright last year, here's hoping that it'll be even better this coming year.

madscavenger
05-25-2007, 07:38 PM
I don't think the decision regarding medical treatment last year was primarily on Greg's shoulders, but in any case it could hardly be considered an issue of "honesty". I presume you were in a hurry and meant something else.

I think he'll have a breakout year. It really became his team late last year when his leadership qualities began to jell. He finished strong, even though he was still somewhat physically compromised. There was a glimmer of the Duhon personna emerging and that, as you know, can be contagious. Next year may be a lot of fun, something that was missing last year, but not discussed much (at least i didn't see it).

mgtr
05-25-2007, 08:02 PM
Unlike some posters last year, I have remained a Paulus supporter. I am both happy and sad that he was injured last year. Sad because we could have done better, happy because that suggests greater performance ahead. I am very optimistic about this upcoming year.

Chicago 1995
05-25-2007, 08:39 PM
Unlike some posters last year, I have remained a Paulus supporter. I am both happy and sad that he was injured last year. Sad because we could have done better, happy because that suggests greater performance ahead. I am very optimistic about this upcoming year.

Just trying to temper expectations, but was Greg's foot injured his freshman year too?

I think we've got to be very measured in what we expect from Greg because, even healthy, there's a lot of evidence that he's got certain limitations that are troubling for a PG.

Wander
05-25-2007, 09:09 PM
I'm calling it now: National player of the year baby!

Seriously though, aside from the injury, Paulus has played more minutes over his two years than is normal. He might be our best returner but I think just having the backcourt depth we're going to have next year is going to help him get a lot better.

ikiru36
05-25-2007, 09:16 PM
Just trying to temper expectations, but was Greg's foot injured his freshman year too?

I think we've got to be very measured in what we expect from Greg because, even healthy, there's a lot of evidence that he's got certain limitations that are troubling for a PG.

Not that expectations shouldn't be reasonably tempered but, yes, I believe he was playing with an injured foot during his Freshman year as well. My recollection, anyways, is that his injury last October was deemed a re-injury of something lingering from late in high school. A decision was made, hopefully based on complete information, to have him rest it until it basically got to where further playing wouldn't worsen the injury, then to play through it until the end of the season when a surgical procedure could repair the earlier high school injury.

Of course, we don't know if this will be fully successful, but Duke Orthopods have pulled off some miraculous things before (G. Hill anyone?) so I'm hopeful his foot may be feeling its best since before he began at Duke. Greg showed this year how tough he is and his ability to improve areas of his game (like shooting). If the foot heals properly, I have little doubt that Greg will be smarter, stronger and faster than we've seen before. Will that make him TJ Ford quick? Doubtful. But he'll also likely be in better aerobic shape throughout the season and he's likely to have more rest and backup support as well. Coach K has already shown that he's willing to trust Scheyer at the 1 and many seem to feel that Nolan Smith is ready to challenge Greg for PT too.

I think it's gonna be fun to watch 'em Duke it out and all make each other better. I think that another thing Greg struggled with last year on game day was that he wasn't having to practice daily against the kind of quickness he later faced. In the past, Duke has often at least had a Jay Heaps or Greg Buckner to simulate ball pressure every day and I don't believe someone fit that role last year when Greg was returning from his injury (if i'm wrong about this, i'm glad to know). Nolan Smith, who backed up and played alongside Ty Lawson during his Junior year of high school, probably will help in that regard. :0)

Go Greg!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go Devils!!!!!!!!!!!!! GTHCGTH!!!!!!!!!!!

Bob Green
05-25-2007, 09:30 PM
You make a valid point about Greg needing to face speed and pressure daily during practice, but I believe you meant to say Andre Buckner.

Bob Green
Yokosuka, Japan

ikiru36
05-25-2007, 10:21 PM
You make a valid point about Greg needing to face speed and pressure daily during practice, but I believe you meant to say Andre Buckner.

Bob Green
Yokosuka, Japan

Good catch and I absolutely meant Andre. Of course, cousin Greg would've been a good practice partner too!

BTW, Jay's been reasonably easy to follow given his other exploits. Anyone know how Andre's doing? Anything sporty going on in his life or is he just muddling through as a lowly Duke grad like the rest of us?

greybeard
05-25-2007, 11:24 PM
The ball handling/ decision making problems last year were due to the foot. To me, it was always obvious and I said it, as in repeatedly. He should not have played. I am very cautious in my expectations for next year. Very, very cautious. Brave and talented kid with a real physical problem. Surgery does not make the bones in the foot "all better." We'll see what Paulus can do with his new foot, and whether that really includes playing big time basketball. If Paulus plays and is not terrific, I'll say it now, just the break.

watzone
05-26-2007, 01:17 AM
Paulus watched the TOC/Williams game tonight. Pocius and Shavlik Randolph sat with him.

Classof06
05-26-2007, 01:37 PM
Recognize reality, work hard and go for it. Then good things happen. Not intended as negative - just constructive criticism.

Cheers (GTHC).

Agreed. There's nothing negative about calling it like you see it and that's what I think a lot of fans did with Paulus last year. When he played bad, people made the necessary observations, but when he played well, I know I was very quick to say so. Besides the growth and glimpses we got of what Henderson can be, the most encouraging thing about this Duke team going into the offseason was that Paulus was our best player for the last 15 games of the season. He played terrific.

That being said, every college basketball player that stays 4 years has one year that is more important than the rest in terms of development; I think this coming season is undoubtedly the pivotal and critical year for Greg Paulus. If it is meant to be, he needs to take control of this team, something I admit is hard to do when, from what I gather, McRoberts was somewhat of a cancer and Paulus himself had to deal with both the injury and running a young team while being young himself.

Barring injury, I think this is the year we find out what Paulus is about. We'll find out which part of last season was a fluke; the first half where he certainly struggled, or the 2nd half, where he played brilliantly despite the broken foot. I hope and believe we'll see the 2nd half Greg Paulus and this team is going to need that.

DukieUGA
05-26-2007, 07:46 PM
i started getting the feeling towards the end of the year that JM was a somewhat negative force on team chemistry, but the word cancer never entered in my head. I'm not sure it's an inappropriate view though, chemistry is a funny thing, and once a focal point becomes "infectious" it can spread quickly.
As to GP and the honesty issue, you're prob'ly right, it might not have been completely up to him, but they could have still been more cautious with him. He's obviously a competitive guy and would probably try to play with a broken leg and a cast if he thought he could be a positive to the team.

kydevil
05-26-2007, 08:04 PM
How bout we just lay off Paulus a little, he is the team leader and he showed that all year, esp in the 2nd half of the season. We have yet to see him play at 100%.
Duke will be fine with Greg Paulus at the Point!

Indoor66
05-27-2007, 02:48 PM
I'm with you on laying off Paulus. The kid will be fine when he is healthy.

mapei
05-27-2007, 09:52 PM
If there's a legit question mark, it may be whether he CAN get and remain healthy for the entire upcoming season.

greybeard
05-28-2007, 12:26 AM
Reported that P had his five metatarsal, which was broken in 3 places, "remoed." As DBR pointed out, if that's so, it's difficult to see P at anything like an all out baller. I remain a huge fame and wish him what he wants, but remain very, very cautious in my expectations.

killerleft
05-29-2007, 08:49 AM
Agreed. He's proven he will be the best that he can be. Can't ask any more than that.

Greg at his best and healthy will be very good.

The Gordog
05-29-2007, 10:57 AM
Reported that P had his five metatarsal, which was broken in 3 places, "remoed." As DBR pointed out, if that's so, it's difficult to see P at anything like an all out baller. I remain a huge fame and wish him what he wants, but remain very, very cautious in my expectations.

I wondered about that. Does that mean it was replaced with a rod, or are the toe bones left to float around or are they fused to the next toe over?

OldSchool
05-30-2007, 03:57 PM
"Paulus said it's fairly easy to figure out who the key player is on next year's team: Seven-foot sophomore Brian Zoubek.

"'Brian’s got to be a force down low for us and score and rebound,' Paulus said. 'He's very talented and last year was a learning experience getting some time and playing against Josh in practice.'"

I predict folks here who are so down on Z will be pleasantly surprised by the end of the season. I'm not saying it won't be a bumpy road, but by the end of the year Z will be huge for us. Junior year, Z will be a star.

Classof06
05-30-2007, 04:19 PM
"Paulus said it's fairly easy to figure out who the key player is on next year's team: Seven-foot sophomore Brian Zoubek.

"'Brian’s got to be a force down low for us and score and rebound,' Paulus said. 'He's very talented and last year was a learning experience getting some time and playing against Josh in practice.'"

I predict folks here who are so down on Z will be pleasantly surprised by the end of the season. I'm not saying it won't be a bumpy road, but by the end of the year Z will be huge for us. Junior year, Z will be a star.


I'll co-sign that. They didn't recruit this kid for no reason. While I wish he would've averaged more than 7 minutes per game last year, I think Brian is not only intelligent, but pleasantly quick and agile for someone his size; this kid is no stiff. Do I expect him to dominate by game 1? Nope, but by the time the NCAA tourney comes around, I think we'll all be a bit surprised. And I'm betting I'll be able to make that statement for a couple of players on our team, not just Zoubek.

Bob Green
05-30-2007, 04:31 PM
I agree that Brian Zoubek will be a very good player his Junior season. Hopefully, he will be a very good player by March of next year. I also expect significant improvement from Gerald Henderson, Jr. who was coming on strong the end of the season. The one guy who could have a monster year is DeMarcus Nelson. I believe he will approach his Senior season with a desire to leave his mark on the program. Last year was DeMarcus' first healthy year and he responded by leading the team in scoring. He will spend the summer working on his ball handling and agility.

If healthy, Paulus and Pocius will be much improved players.

Bob Green
Yokosuka, Japan

OldSchool
05-30-2007, 04:46 PM
I hope Markie spends the summer working on his shot. I'd like to see more arc, more consistency and more confidence from him in his 3 pt shot. A better 3 pt shot would mean a world of difference for Markie's effectiveness as a player.

SilkyJ
05-30-2007, 09:27 PM
I wondered about that. Does that mean it was replaced with a rod, or are the toe bones left to float around or are they fused to the next toe over?

See DBR email/article from this weekend:

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=22638

"Loss of the entire fifth metatarsal would be a disaster for an athlete, or, for that matter, any active adult."

Basically, either Greg is never playing basketball at Duke again or the OTHER article that said he had it removed must be wrong or have a typo. I'll assume the latter.

SilkyJ
05-30-2007, 09:33 PM
I hope Markie spends the summer working on his shot. I'd like to see more arc, more consistency and more confidence from him in his 3 pt shot. A better 3 pt shot would mean a world of difference for Markie's effectiveness as a player.

I assume you mean MarTY pocius. If he improves like he did between year 1-2 I think he'll get good minutes, but if Gerald improves as well its unlikely he'll jump past gerald and scheyer (not to mention Nelson)

OldSchool
05-30-2007, 10:04 PM
I do mean Demarcus. As the season went on his jumpshot got flatter and more inconsistent. He also seemed to lose confidence in his shot, because late in the season I noticed him passing up open looks. He needs to take that three when he finds himself open, he can't just defer to Greg and Jon. We shouldn't have to rely on our point guard to hit so many clutch 3s.

Regarding Marty, I haven't seen enough of his jumpshot in games to have much of an opinion on it, but from what little I've seen he looks fairly solid.

kydevil
05-30-2007, 10:36 PM
Agreed, Nelson's 3 got very flat and was inconsistent, esp. towards the end of the year. Teams started backing off of him forcing him to drive, which resulted in many TO'S. If he can knock down the 3 he will be a tough guard.

SilkyJ
05-31-2007, 11:07 AM
Agreed, Nelson's 3 got very flat and was inconsistent, esp. towards the end of the year. Teams started backing off of him forcing him to drive, which resulted in many TO'S. If he can knock down the 3 he will be a tough guard.

Definitely. If he improves a little on his 3 and his FTs, and has a solid offseason (meaning he just generally improves a little) I think he has the potential to be 1st team All-ACC next year, especially with his defense and rebounding.

thebur
05-31-2007, 11:17 AM
It is inevitable that thinking about someone losing their fifth metatarsal leads me to this exchange:

Nihilist #2: His girlfriend gave up her toe!
Nihilist #3: She though we'd be getting million dollars!
Nihilist #2: Iss not fair!

Nonetheless, I think Greg will have a breakout year this year, even when we use the "double point" lineup with he and Smith in the games. I actually think this could be a situation where Greg's shooting will shine, and we would benefit from having two people on the court with players like LT and BZ who could set up opportunities for the big men. I actually think a line up of GP, NS, DN/GH, LT/KS, and BZ would be effective for this team.

Wags
05-31-2007, 12:36 PM
I hope Marty works on his defense this summer. I think that is why he doesn't get many minutes. He turns the ball over a little much too, but as you probably saw at the end of last season he can definately score. I think it was the NC State game in the ACC tournament when he hit some clutch 3's. Remember his dunk in the VCU game?

I just watched some videos of Nolan Smith and Kyle Singler on YouTube. Nolan has major hops and had some awesome dunks on there. Singler is definately a stud (they were right, he definately reminds me of Larry Bird). They only showed his offensive abilities though. I hope he can play defense. He shows his emotions a lot, he will be one of those hated Duke players. In one of the videos it showed him shoving Kevin Love.

Duke will have loads of talent this year. I hope Coach K utilizes his bench a little more (like Roy Williams at Carolina). Maybe we wont have anyone transfer like Boykin and Boateng did. With the depth at the guard spot, I hope we sub often and run.

greybeard
05-31-2007, 01:58 PM
Definitely. If he improves a little on his 3 and his FTs, and has a solid offseason (meaning he just generally improves a little) I think he has the potential to be 1st team All-ACC next year, especially with his defense and rebounding.

He won't have to take as many. With freshman turning sophomores, my guess is that K will give them more responsibility aka leeway. IMO, Nelson was asked to do too much, and had to take shots that he was not "feeling." If you are playing on the defensive end and on the boards like he was, and attacking the rim, flat can happen. With more shooters around, and older ones, Nelson will be more effective, I believe.

Indoor66
05-31-2007, 04:08 PM
N-E-V-E-R ask K to be like the Evil One at the Dump on the Hump!

jaimedun34
06-01-2007, 09:06 AM
He won't have to take as many. With freshman turning sophomores, my guess is that K will give them more responsibility aka leeway. IMO, Nelson was asked to do too much, and had to take shots that he was not "feeling." If you are playing on the defensive end and on the boards like he was, and attacking the rim, flat can happen. With more shooters around, and older ones, Nelson will be more effective, I believe.

I agree.

I hope (and believe) that our guards will play more efficiently this season (offensively at least). As much as Josh's passing helped our offense, we really had to compromise it because of Josh's lack of offensive skill (couldn't finish inside or post up, wouldn't take jump shots and wasn't aggressive enough to take players off the dribble consistently). of course, it would have helped to have Zoubek on the court for some time, but Zoubs wasn't able to consistently be a positive on the court. But we couldn't run a motion offense to save our lives. We do often run a 4 out, 1 in offense. But usually our 1 man inside was McClure/McRoberts/Thomas, and those players don't create shots well inside. Or, one of those players was part of the 4 "outside" players, and again McClure/McRoberts/Thomas couldn't do any damage from there either.

I'm not pointing the finger at anyone on this board because I'm as guilty of this as anyone, but a lot of people bashed GP because he wan't playing like a true point guard. To bolster their (my) argument, Josh's play was used, citing the times when he brought the ball up the court or initiated the offense as evidence of this. Really, it seems that it was Josh's passing ability and high basketball IQ, and not Greg's inability to run the point, that put those two players in the positions they were in the past few weeks of the season.

kydevil
06-01-2007, 09:12 AM
I agree.

I hope (and believe) that our guards will play more efficiently this season (offensively at least). As much as Josh's passing helped our offense, we really had to compromise it because of Josh's lack of offensive skill (couldn't finish inside or post up, wouldn't take jump shots and wasn't aggressive enough to take players off the dribble consistently). of course, it would have helped to have Zoubek on the court for some time, but Zoubs wasn't able to consistently be a positive on the court. But we couldn't run a motion offense to save our lives. We do often run a 4 out, 1 in offense. But usually our 1 man inside was McClure/McRoberts/Thomas, and those players don't create shots well inside. Or, one of those players was part of the 4 "outside" players, and again McClure/McRoberts/Thomas couldn't do any damage from there either.

I'm not pointing the finger at anyone on this board because I'm as guilty of this as anyone, but a lot of people bashed GP because he wan't playing like a true point guard. To bolster their (my) argument, Josh's play was used, citing the times when he brought the ball up the court or initiated the offense as evidence of this. Really, it seems that it was Josh's passing ability and high basketball IQ, and not Greg's inability to run the point, that put those two players in the positions they were in the past few weeks of the season.

Agreed, however In the later part of the season not as many questioned Greg's ability to run the point. It's hard for a true point guard to run an efficient offense when there is no inside game and everyone is away from the basket.

Wags
06-01-2007, 10:54 AM
Don't worry about Paulus at the point, he will be fine. I think it would be nice to see Smith run the point at times, to take advantage of Greg's great 3 point shooting abilites.

As for McRoberts leaving, I'm fine with that. He had amazing talent, but he was more of a cancer than anything (crying, yelling at teammates, poor body language).

freedevil
06-01-2007, 10:57 AM
I dunno about cancer, but his court dimeanor was the anti-Duke. Granted, I hated the anti-McRoberts dimeanor too (see Lee Melchioni, his shtick was just embarrassing). In sum, I like Paulus' grit, it's what Duke is all about. Go DUKE!

greybeard
06-01-2007, 12:21 PM
The attitude thing, for one thing, the sporatic play inside (especially receiving the ball) for aother, and bringing the ball upcourt for a third. The BACK.

I don't know about the rest of you, but when my body used to fail me occasionally (now that it does it all the time, things are different), particularly in ways that struck at the core of what I was good at, because of an injury, it was a real bummer. I can only imagine what it felt like to be out in public and be having that happen, especially when you have pro aspirations. I've said this before, the way Paulus handled his travails astounds; I marvel at the guy; a champion and leader without peer. I do not fault McRob for falling short of that mark.

I think that especially towards the end of the season, McRob needed to save his energy at times, and had to make sure that he was back on defense. Duke could not win with other teams scoring on run outs or delayed run outs. McRob needed to be back and ready. Dribbling up the court was a justification for dragging a bit, and a way of trying to be useful in the process, perhaps.

Getting the ball inside the defense to a big when he is on the move is a lost art, and one that Duke as a team needs to improve upon. If they do, the Zman will be the beneficiary. It seemed to me that Z has a nice sense of where the spaces are relative to where the ball is or will be, and that entry passes were missed. Worse yet, many were delayed. Delayed would get the ball to Z when he was often off balance, either having just been pushed to a defender who was recovering from having been beaten, or when he was pushing back.

I think a more mature exterior team will let those passes go in a more timely fashion, or at least I hope so. Paulus's ability in that regard, which he had shown the previous year to be quite keen, was, imo, greatly hampered by the foot. If his weight was wrong when he saw something before it was about to happen, he either had to arm the pass, or wait for his weight to right itself, which usually would be too late. The arm passes were often ugly, as all momentum comes from mother earth. Nature knows no other possibility.

So, if Paulus's foot heals reasonably well, and if Shuyer and Wilkins and DeMan and McClure improve their ability to get the thing inside, look for Z to perform much better and certainly diminish significantly his turnovers. Lang should also benefit greatly too. However, between Z and Lang, I see Z having the much better vision for where the spaces will be and thus the bigger upside as putting real interior pressure on defenses. On the other hand, Lang, if he develops an ability to flash catch and shoot, could be scary; you try to take that away, and there will be some highlights.

DukieUGA
06-01-2007, 03:28 PM
Shuyer? Alright, just a typo, but who in the world is Wilkins?

Classof06
06-01-2007, 03:44 PM
In talking to some friends at Duke, people very in tune with the program, I got the clear impression that McRoberts did not want to be there last year. He really struggled with leaving after his freshman year and he was particularly close with JJ Redick. For one, he routinely called Paulus out in players-only meetings while Paulus struggled early on, and I don't think you need to be a Duke insider to see he just didn't have a good attitude. His body language was God awful. As someone who met McRoberts on more than one occasion my senior year (his freshman year), the kid came off as immature. Just one man's opinion, but I could tell he was in high school the year before.

Maybe the word "cancer" is strong, but while he might not have torn the locker room apart, his finger pointing didn't help a young team desperately searching for both leadership and confidence; two things he was supposed to provide.

MChambers
06-01-2007, 04:20 PM
Shuyer? Alright, just a typo, but who in the world is Wilkins?

Must be Lang's brother.

throatybeard
06-01-2007, 04:46 PM
I think the Handy Pocket Reference needs a new item; I'm just not sure which section it ought to go in:

"Gracious, how shall we cope with the fact that our current point guard isn't Bobby Hurley?"

greybeard
06-01-2007, 08:49 PM
A Greybeard moment, see, I was in a rush to the start of a Feldenkrais training weekend (don't ask), and all I could think of is the kid had a pro lineage. That would be Henderson. Don't get old! ;)

Wander
06-02-2007, 12:41 PM
The attitude thing, for one thing, the sporatic play inside (especially receiving the ball) for aother, and bringing the ball upcourt for a third. The BACK.

There are plenty of players who have injuries and aren't d-bags - like Paulus. The back isn't an excuse for that.

Jarhead
06-02-2007, 09:56 PM
There are plenty of players who have injuries and aren't d-bags - like Paulus. The back isn't an excuse for that.

Let's be perfectly clear. Who is the d-bag to whom you refer? The way your sentence may be parsed -- who knows? Probably better if you reworded that reference.

mapei
06-03-2007, 10:50 AM
I'm still wondering who Lang is. There was Antonio Lang, who played for Duke many years ago, but is there a current one that I missed? Do you mean LANCE Thomas? Recruit Taylor KING? Trajan LANGdon?

Travi_K
06-03-2007, 04:20 PM
I aggree, I am not sure who Wilkins is or what Lang's brother meant.

MChambers
06-03-2007, 07:20 PM
I didn't know who Wilkins was, but since I didn't know who Lang was, either, I suggested that Wilkins must be Lang's brother.

Greybeard has since confirmed that by Wilkins, he meant Henderson.

For a serious guess, I'm betting that Lang=Thomas. (I'm thinking that maybe Lance has some similar attributes as Tony Lang. Of course, one could sasy that Zoobs resembles Kris Lang, but no Duke fan would say that!)

Greybeard, could you let us know?

JasonEvans
06-04-2007, 08:52 AM
I think the Handy Pocket Reference needs a new item; I'm just not sure which section it ought to go in:

"Gracious, how shall we cope with the fact that our current point guard isn't Bobby Hurley?"

I think it should say: "How shall we cope with the fact that our current point guard isn't Bobby Hurley/Jason Williams?"

-Jason "Paulus will be just fine, IMO... at least 2nd team All-ACC by the time he graduates" Evans

mapei
06-04-2007, 11:32 AM
BTW, I took the opportunity of a rainy afternoon yesterday to watch the Duke/Kansas championship game in 1991. A couple of things really stood out:

1. That Hurley guy was really, really good.
2. K played zone 30-40% of the game. Amazing.

trinity92
06-05-2007, 05:25 PM
I think the Handy Pocket Reference needs a new item; I'm just not sure which section it ought to go in:

"Gracious, how shall we cope with the fact that our current point guard isn't Bobby Hurley?"

The answer: "Don't hand the ball to a gritty but physically ungifted pg as if he were JW or BH and tell him the team is his, without question, for 4 years, and definitely don't play him 32+ minutes a game."

Unfortunately, I think K needs to be reminded that GP isn't, and never will be, BH or JW. For comparison, T. Lawson averaged about 25 mins a game last year, and GP simply doesn't have Lawson's skills or upside. I for one would like to see Smith get a bunch of time at the point this year. I'm also not pleased that we're not even recruiting a pg for 2008-2009. I haven't completely given up on GP, but I just don't see him as a guy you build a team around. Given that our 3 championships came with either JW or BH at the point, it appears to me our system requires a superlative pg. K can't will GP into something he's not.

greybeard
06-06-2007, 11:57 AM
I didn't know who Wilkins was, but since I didn't know who Lang was, either, I suggested that Wilkins must be Lang's brother.

Greybeard has since confirmed that by Wilkins, he meant Henderson.

For a serious guess, I'm betting that Lang=Thomas. (I'm thinking that maybe Lance has some similar attributes as Tony Lang. Of course, one could sasy that Zoobs resembles Kris Lang, but no Duke fan would say that!)

Greybeard, could you let us know?

Exactly. I mean, exactly. ". . . startles your distant ears to hear that somebody thinks they really found you." Robert Zimmerman (not really applicable but it sounds sort of right, which seems to fit the moment). Later.

Classof06
06-06-2007, 12:13 PM
The answer: "Don't hand the ball to a gritty but physically ungifted pg as if he were JW or BH and tell him the team is his, without question, for 4 years, and definitely don't play him 32+ minutes a game."

Unfortunately, I think K needs to be reminded that GP isn't, and never will be, BH or JW. For comparison, T. Lawson averaged about 25 mins a game last year, and GP simply doesn't have Lawson's skills or upside. I for one would like to see Smith get a bunch of time at the point this year. I'm also not pleased that we're not even recruiting a pg for 2008-2009. I haven't completely given up on GP, but I just don't see him as a guy you build a team around. Given that our 3 championships came with either JW or BH at the point, it appears to me our system requires a superlative pg. K can't will GP into something he's not.

Co-signed on all counts. Couldn't possibly agree more...

captmojo
06-06-2007, 12:20 PM
Don't think I've ever been able to cross-reference a Bob Dylan lyric to a basketball point guard before. Priceless.

ojaidave
06-07-2007, 08:25 PM
The answer: "Don't hand the ball to a gritty but physically ungifted pg as if he were JW or BH and tell him the team is his, without question, for 4 years, and definitely don't play him 32+ minutes a game."

Unfortunately, I think K needs to be reminded that GP isn't, and never will be, BH or JW. For comparison, T. Lawson averaged about 25 mins a game last year, and GP simply doesn't have Lawson's skills or upside. I for one would like to see Smith get a bunch of time at the point this year. I'm also not pleased that we're not even recruiting a pg for 2008-2009. I haven't completely given up on GP, but I just don't see him as a guy you build a team around. Given that our 3 championships came with either JW or BH at the point, it appears to me our system requires a superlative pg. K can't will GP into something he's not.

If Greg Paulus is the face of Duke Basketball for the next two years, I'll have no problem with that. Greg is exactly the kind of guy K wants running his team: 100% effort, team first, no excuses. Mentally, GP as a Soph was tougher than Duhon through his Jr year, and JWill throughout his career. He's also, IMO, a better passer than JWill was. Paulus' downside is that he is trappable, he holds onto the ball longer than he should when the trap is coming and waits for things to develop. He'll learn, as will his teammates who can help him out of that situation by freeing themselves and presenting a target.


Trinity92, I don't have your cred's as I didn't go to Duke. I did, however, become a Duke fan because of Bobby Hurley - and that was before they won a championship. I'm as high, obviously, on GP as I have been on any point guard since Hurley. The guy can flat out run a team and play basketball the Duke way. You'll see.

Dave

Chicago 1995
06-07-2007, 09:48 PM
Greg is exactly the kind of guy K wants running his team: 100% effort, team first, no excuses. Mentally, GP as a Soph was tougher than Duhon through his Jr year, and JWill throughout his career.

. . .

I'm as high, obviously, on GP as I have been on any point guard since Hurley. The guy can flat out run a team and play basketball the Duke way. You'll see.

Dave

There's one huge problem with this. Greg lacks the talent that J-Will, BH Duhon or Will Avery had, and frankly, Greg's not even in the discussion with any of those four.

He may have all the mental attributes you suggest, and those are all great things, but heart and desire and toughness can only carry you so far, and then you need physical talent.

I appreciate that Greg's our guy and we want to support him and believe in him, but we're setting him up for failure and ourselves up for massive disappointment if we want to think of Greg in the class of Hurley or J-Will or even Duhon or Avery. Let's be realistic about what Greg is and what he can be.

dukie8
06-07-2007, 10:45 PM
I'm as high, obviously, on GP as I have been on any point guard since Hurley. The guy can flat out run a team and play basketball the Duke way. You'll see.

what makes you think that he can run a team "the Duke way." last year's team was the most dysfunctional and poorly run team since the 1995 team and he was its point guard. it would be one thing if there was nobody else but it was loaded with talent, including a likely first round pick in this year's draft.

dukemomLA
06-08-2007, 02:21 AM
I was never a JoshMc fan. Duke BB is a team sport, and he just never seemed to be a team player. A team should be greater than the sum of its parts, and Josh never got that IMO. I think he hurt team chemistry -- which is often more important than individual talent.

We've got a GREAT core of guys now and I can't wait for the new season to begin!! (damn....is it only the beginning of June?) (A time when it sucks to be a CBB fan).

I pray that Coach K will give minutes to more men than he normally does. We have the rotation to take on anyone for 40 minutes, game after game.

Go Blue Devils!

ojaidave
06-08-2007, 04:03 AM
There's one huge problem with this. Greg lacks the talent that J-Will, BH Duhon or Will Avery had, and frankly, Greg's not even in the discussion with any of those four.

He may have all the mental attributes you suggest, and those are all great things, but heart and desire and toughness can only carry you so far, and then you need physical talent.

I appreciate that Greg's our guy and we want to support him and believe in him, but we're setting him up for failure and ourselves up for massive disappointment if we want to think of Greg in the class of Hurley or J-Will or even Duhon or Avery. Let's be realistic about what Greg is and what he can be.

We see things differently, obviously. To be fair, by almost any statistical measure you are correct that GP doesn't measure up to Hurley, J-Will, Duhon or Avery in their Soph years. What the individual stats don't show is the quality/experience of these point guards' teammates. Looking at the lineups below, I'd say Paulus had the least help.

Hurley 90-91 (http://www.dukeupdate.com/Seasons/19901991_duke_blue_devils.htm)
Koubek (sr)
G.Hill (fr)
Laettner (jr)
T.Hill (so)
McCaffrey (so)
Lang (fr)
Davis (jr)

Avery 98-99 (http://www.dukeupdate.com/Seasons/19981999_duke_blue_devils.htm)
Carrawell (jr)
Battier (so)
Brand (so)
Avery (so)
Langdon (sr)
James (so - rs)
Maggette (fr)
Burgess (so)
Domzalski (sr)

J-Will 00-01 (http://www.dukeupdate.com/Seasons/20002001_duke_blue_devils.htm)
Battier (sr)
Dunleavy (so)
Sanders (fr)
Duhon (fr)
Boozer (so)
James (sr)

Duhon 01-02 (http://www.dukeupdate.com/Seasons/20012002_duke_blue_devils.htm)
D. Jones (sr)
Dunleavy (jr)
C. Boozer (jr)
J. Williams (jr)
D. Ewing (fr)
C. Sanders (so)

Paulus 06-07 (http://goduke.nmnathletics.com/SportSelect.dbml?SPSID=22727&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&Q_SEASON=2006)
Henderson (Fr)
McClure (So)
McRoberts (So)
Nelson (Jr)
Pocius (So)
Scheyer (Fr)
Thomas (Fr)
Zoubek (Fr)

We'll pick this discussion up again, no doubt. I think Paulus has provided what this team has needed.

Time will tell.

Dave

ojaidave
06-08-2007, 04:26 AM
what makes you think that he can run a team "the Duke way." last year's team was the most disfunctional and poorly run team since the 1995 team and he was its point guard. it would be one thing if there was nobody else but it was loaded with talent, including a likely first round pick in this year's draft.

From his freshman year to his sophomore year the team's style of play changed completely, both offensively and defensively. Two years ago, it was JJ's team. The whole offense was geared around setting screens and getting one guy the ball the majority of the time. Last year, we tried to go back to the motion offense, but we just didn't run it very well. I think in large part that was because we were still really busy thinking about what we were supposed to be doing on offense rather than instinctively reacting to the defense.

I think Greg's assists will go up this year and his turnovers will drop significantly. Unfortunately, we all have to wait for what seems like forever to see it play out.

Dave

Chicago 1995
06-08-2007, 08:28 AM
We see things differently, obviously. To be fair, by almost any statistical measure you are correct that GP doesn't measure up to Hurley, J-Will, Duhon or Avery in their Soph years. What the individual stats don't show is the quality/experience of these point guards' teammates. Looking at the lineups below, I'd say Paulus had the least help.

. . .

Dave

As a sophomore, I don't dispute that for a second. Hurley & J-Will won national titles as sophomores. Avery was on a team that should have won a title.

As a freshman though, he had as much help as any of those guys. Greg was playing with two first team All-Americans and a third first round draft pick. And even with talent around him, Greg didn't show me that he's capable of being the point guard on a elite team.

The Gordog
06-08-2007, 08:56 AM
The answer: "Don't hand the ball to a gritty but physically ungifted pg as if he were JW or BH and tell him the team is his, without question, for 4 years, and definitely don't play him 32+ minutes a game."

Unfortunately, I think K needs to be reminded that GP isn't, and never will be, BH or JW. For comparison, T. Lawson averaged about 25 mins a game last year, and GP simply doesn't have Lawson's skills or upside. I for one would like to see Smith get a bunch of time at the point this year. I'm also not pleased that we're not even recruiting a pg for 2008-2009. I haven't completely given up on GP, but I just don't see him as a guy you build a team around. Given that our 3 championships came with either JW or BH at the point, it appears to me our system requires a superlative pg. K can't will GP into something he's not.

You are right about one thing. Greg is not Hurley or Williams. BFD! Neither was Duhon and he started on one National Championship team and led us to another Final 4. Duhon had major problems his Soph. and Jr. years, mostly mental, and was regularly ripped around here. Paulus has had some injuries, but I for one feel confident that if he's healthy he will be the key player on a very good team next year. And as for talent, the guy can flat out shoot -- 45% from 3 last year.

Your comparison to Lawson is irrelevant. Ol' Roy couldn't play Lawson too much because the guy was a ball hog and Tyler hated him. When Lawson was in Tyler and Wright did not get the shots Roy wanted them to get. Lawson's very talented, but he did not run the half-court as well as their other option, who's name escapes me right now.

Then you put the fact that you want to see Smith play more right next to the fact that you want us to recruit another PG. Which is it? Is Smith a legitimate PG option or not?

Then comes the most objectionable thing in your whole post. I may have a different opinion from you on the other stuff, but you can not write "I haven't completely given up on GP..." and call yourself a Duke fan in my book. We do not give up on one of our own *ever.* Period. Full Stop.

Now he may not be the guy you build a team around, but '06 was built around JJ and Shel, '07 was built around McRoberts, and '08 will not be built around any one player. DeMarcus, Gerald, Jon, Kyle and Greg will all have their chances to shine at crunch time, and I would bet you that Paulus will deliver as many game winners as any of them.

ojaidave
06-08-2007, 10:52 AM
As a sophomore, I don't dispute that for a second. Hurley & J-Will won national titles as sophomores. Avery was on a team that should have won a title.

As a freshman though, he had as much help as any of those guys. Greg was playing with two first team All-Americans and a third first round draft pick. And even with talent around him, Greg didn't show me that he's capable of being the point guard on a elite team.

What, specifically, didn't he show you? Are we talking stats or "feel" here. Greg Paulus lead the league in assists his Freshman year. We'll agree to disagree. I think Paulus can be a key component to a championship team. I don't think that he can win a championship all by himself though, so maybe our views are not as far apart as they seem.

Dave

trinity92
06-08-2007, 11:08 AM
Then comes the most objectionable thing in your whole post. I may have a different opinion from you on the other stuff, but you can not write "I haven't completely given up on GP..." and call yourself a Duke fan in my book. We do not give up on one of our own *ever.* Period. Full Stop.

So you're happy with Collins taking the last mid-court shot against Arkansas? I suppose you won't acknowledge that the stall game finally blew up in our faces against Kentucky in the '98 regional final, or that K was flat-out outcoached by Calhoun in '99, and found a way to lose that championship with 4 top-15 picks in his starting 5? I suppose you're still bullish on Ricky Price or Casey Sanders' upside? Puhlease.

In 2003 I had a long conversation with a frat brother of mine who graduated well before you, and his dad was the orthopedic guy for the BB team. He blasted K for letting JJ score 28 points as a freshman and letting the team rely on him. Blasphemy? I thought so at the time, but regardless of his individual honors, JJ never won us a title.

I bleed duke blue, but I'll never view our program, coach or players through rose-colored glasses. If the guy doesn't produce, let him bounce. Just b/c K recruited him doesn't make him special--It's his performance that counts. Wojo was a nice scrappy pg, averaged almost 6 apg one year and was a defensive monster, rather than a sore liability on D as GP is, yet he presided over the nadir of K's program. I'd have GP's back in a fight, but I'd bench him if we had a better point without a second thought, and I haven't seen championship potential in him yet.

Classof06
06-08-2007, 11:39 AM
So you're happy with Collins taking the last mid-court shot against Arkansas? I suppose you won't acknowledge that the stall game finally blew up in our faces against Kentucky in the '98 regional final, or that K was flat-out outcoached by Calhoun in '99, and found a way to lose that championship with 4 top-15 picks in his starting 5? I suppose you're still bullish on Ricky Price or Casey Sanders' upside? Puhlease.

In 2000 I had a long conversation with a frat brother of mine who graduated well before you, and his dad was the orthopedic guy for the BB team. He blasted K for letting JJ score 28 points as a freshman and letting the team rely on him. Blasphemy? I thought so at the time, but regardless of his individual honors, JJ never won us a title.

I bleed duke blue, but I'll never view our program, coach or players through rose-colored glasses. If the guy doesn't produce, let him bounce. Just b/c K recruited him doesn't make him special--It's his performance that counts. Wojo was a nice scrappy pg, averaged almost 6 apg one year and was a defensive monster, rather than a sore liability on D as GP is, yet he presided over the nadir of K's program. I'd have GP's back in a fight, but I'd bench him if we had a better point without a second thought, and I haven't seen championship potential in him yet.


Again, Trinity is spot on. Personally, I haven't given up on Greg. But make no mistake, this is the year for him. I'm one who believes that Greg, for whatever possible reason/excuse makes you sleep better at night, has not shown he can effectively run a team at a high level for a whole season. And as I've said numerous times, this year is unquestionably the most pivotal year of his Duke career. A lot of people on here are assuming Paulus is the man, but I believe the jury is still out. He has not yet sustained a level of play where I can expect him to produce relatively consistently for 30+ games; last year, he did it for 15. Many on here seem to be giving him the benefit of the doubt, and I'm just not willing to do that until he actually proves it. If that makes me less of a Duke fan in your eyes, then so be it.

I also think there is the growing sentiment around here that Greg Paulus is somehow entitled to special treatment or that he's above reproach. That really irks me. Criticizing Greg Paulus does not equal throwing him under the bus. I find it hard to believe that rational people making what I think are accurate observations about his first two years, are all of a sudden not true Duke fans. Like Chicago1995 said, many of you are being very forgiving/unrealistic about Paulus' abilities, and I refuse to drink that Kool-Aid. Greg is tough, gritty and a great competitor, but he falls short in a lot of other areas that many of you seem to overlook/ignore/excuse/whatever.

My point is that yes, Greg Paulus is capable of developing into what many of us think he can become. For the good of the team, I hope he does. But he hasn't done it yet. And until he does, we who think he has performances leaving much to be desired are going to say so. And we will continue to say so if it continues to happen. That does not diminish our Duke support.

Again, the kid is certainly capable of getting better, but IMO, he hasn't done anything to earn any free passes and he ain't gettin any from this guy. If Smith comes in and proves he's better, then put him on the damn floor. If Paulus proves he's the man, then that's fine, let's go win some ballgames. But don't tell me or even imply that Greg Paulus is entitled to be the starting PG; his play has done nothing to warrant such a luxury.

Chicago 1995
06-08-2007, 11:49 AM
What, specifically, didn't he show you? Are we talking stats or "feel" here. Greg Paulus lead the league in assists his Freshman year. We'll agree to disagree. I think Paulus can be a key component to a championship team. I don't think that he can win a championship all by himself though, so maybe our views are not as far apart as they seem.

Dave

He lead the league in assists, but with a pretty meager number, especially considering the way the offense was run and the two options he had to get to the ball to.

Here's what I saw, and I don't think this is "feel."

Greg showed a very limited ability to create off the dribble as a freshman and showed the same difficulties with physical athletic defenders that plagued him his this year. He also didn't seem to be able to push tempo or play at a higher pace, something that we again suffered with this year.

Defensively, Greg was a liability as a freshman just as much as he was as a sophomore. The team didn't suffer as much with Shelden on the backline and with better rotations generally, but it didn't make Greg individually a better defender.

I hope Greg can be a key component on a championship team. I'm not sure about it though.

The Gordog
06-08-2007, 12:04 PM
So you're happy with Collins taking the last mid-court shot against Arkansas? I suppose you won't acknowledge that the stall game finally blew up in our faces against Kentucky in the '98 regional final, or that K was flat-out outcoached by Calhoun in '99, and found a way to lose that championship with 4 top-15 picks in his starting 5?

I am happy to support Duke basketball win or lose. You apparently are not happy unless we win a championship. And while you can point to one game in anybody's career and say that you were not happy with a particular play that does not mean that they were not the best available alternative at the time.

As for '99 you may not be aware of it, but Carrawell, Brand and Magette were out until 4 am the night before and were just not ready to play at their usual level that night. If you think that's Coach K's fault then we'll just have to disagree. His game plan was sound and we should have won that game.



I suppose you're still bullish on Ricky Price or Casey Sanders' upside? Puhlease.

Your comments on Price and Sanders are insulting and not at all related to what I was saying.


In 2000 I had a long conversation with a frat brother of mine who graduated well before you, and his dad was the orthopedic guy for the BB team. He blasted K for letting JJ score 28 points as a freshman and letting the team rely on him. Blasphemy? I thought so at the time, but regardless of his individual honors, JJ never won us a title.

And what is the point of this tall tale? Coach K makes mistakes? Well, yes, he's human, but playing your best player, freshman or not, is never a mistake. And the lack of internal consistency in your posts is so glaring I have a hard time believeing you actually graduated from Duke. (And I'm curious as to what year your frat brother graduated.) You never did answer my earlier question as to whether Smith is a legitamte PG or not, and now you say in one breath a guy should be bounced if he fails to produce and in the next breath JJ should not have been "allowed" to score 28 points. It makes the head spin. You know K got all over his guys for playing "watch JJ" during all 4 of his years. The fact that some of them never internalized the message consistently is not K's fault. Blasting the NPOY for not "winning us a title" and implying it's because he was worn down as freshman is just nuts.


I bleed duke blue, but I'll never view our program, coach or players through rose-colored glasses. If the guy doesn't produce, let him bounce. Just b/c K recruited him doesn't make him special--It's his performance that counts. Wojo was a nice scrappy pg, averaged almost 6 apg one year and was a defensive monster, rather than a sore liability on D as GP is, yet he presided over the nadir of K's program. I'd have GP's back in a fight, but I'd bench him if we had a better point without a second thought, and I haven't seen championship potential in him yet.

I don't wear rose-colored galsses. I just don't think it helps anybody to publicly bash our players with unsubstantiated opinions and unrealistic expectations. I expect our teams to be excellent. I have only been disappointed once. If we don't win a championship next year it won't be because of Paulus's lack of potential, but because Zoubek may not be ready to carry the load in the middle as well as Boozer did his 2nd year.

Chicago 1995
06-08-2007, 12:33 PM
I am happy to support Duke basketball win or lose. You apparently are not happy unless we win a championship.

It seems like in the wake of last season, those of us who have criticisms of the team or the players here are branded as spoiled fans who are only happy with championships. I don't think that's a fair statement.

Just because I might be critical of our strategies in the 1998 Elite 8 loss to Kentucky, for example, doesn't mean I'm only happy with Championships. All it means is that I'm disppointed we didn't play as well as we could have or that we didn't maximize our chances of winning that day. I can be upset about a loss -- even critical of it -- without being disappointed in the whole season. Trinity92 can be as well, I expect.

Coach K talks about every season like it is a lifetime. Well all I want out of every lifetime this team has is to do everything it can to improve over the course of the season, and be its best at the end of the year. If that best is the Round fo 32, so be it. Let's just do everything we can to give ourselves the best shot we can at reaching the limit of our abilities. There are things that are going to get in the way that you can't control -- a bad officiating crew (vs. UConn 2004) or 19 year olds being 19 year olds (vs. UConn 1999) or just a great night by an opponent (vs. MSU in 2005) -- and that, while disappointing is part of the game.

If I'm critical of Coach K, it's not because a year didn't result in a championship, but because I have questions about whether or not he got everything out of the team he could have. It's a big difference. Around here, things have become polarized to some extent, and it seems like if you aren't wholly supportive of the team and its personnel, you're a spoiled or bad fan who has unrealistic expectations. There's a lot of grey area in fandom that we need to recognize, I think. Doing so will hopefully lead to better dialogue and discussion here.


If we don't win a championship next year it won't be because of Paulus's lack of potential, but because Zoubek may not be ready to carry the load in the middle as well as Boozer did his 2nd year.

There's no way to prove or disprove this point, but I think it's clear I disagree. Give next years team a sophomore Carlos Boozer in the paint, I still don't think it's a championship team because of the shortcomings at PG.

At the same time, give this team junior Jason Williams, and it's still not a championship team because of the lack of depth and the youth upfront. We're a ways a way from worrying about championships. Let's just worry about being as good as we can be.

The Gordog
06-08-2007, 01:15 PM
It seems like in the wake of last season, those of us who have criticisms of the team or the players here are branded as spoiled fans who are only happy with championships. I don't think that's a fair statement.

Where did I say anybody was spoiled? Critcize the team all you want, but be prepared to back up your criticism with evidence and persuation. Calling Paulus "physically ungifted" is just BS. The guy is gifted. Not in the same way as Hurley or JWill, but those guys were unique in our lifetimes.


Just because I might be critical of our strategies in the 1998 Elite 8 loss to Kentucky, for example, doesn't mean I'm only happy with Championships. All it means is that I'm disppointed we didn't play as well as we could have or that we didn't maximize our chances of winning that day. I can be upset about a loss -- even critical of it -- without being disappointed in the whole season. Trinity92 can be as well, I expect.

Coach K talks about every season like it is a lifetime. Well all I want out of every lifetime this team has is to do everything it can to improve over the course of the season, and be its best at the end of the year. If that best is the Round fo 32, so be it. Let's just do everything we can to give ourselves the best shot we can at reaching the limit of our abilities. There are things that are going to get in the way that you can't control -- a bad officiating crew (vs. UConn 2004) or 19 year olds being 19 year olds (vs. UConn 1999) or just a great night by an opponent (vs. MSU in 2005) -- and that, while disappointing is part of the game.

If I'm critical of Coach K, it's not because a year didn't result in a championship, but because I have questions about whether or not he got everything out of the team he could have. It's a big difference. Around here, things have become polarized to some extent, and it seems like if you aren't wholly supportive of the team and its personnel, you're a spoiled or bad fan who has unrealistic expectations. There's a lot of grey area in fandom that we need to recognize, I think. Doing so will hopefully lead to better dialogue and discussion here.

Part of the problem I have with all the K critics is that you are not there. You don't know what is said and done in practices and on the sidelines. It's all unsubstantiated.

trinity92
06-08-2007, 01:31 PM
The following are samples of why you don't get the privilege of full responses from me refuting you:


As for '99 you may not be aware of it, but Carrawell, Brand and Magette were out until 4 am the night before and were just not ready to play at their usual level that night. If you think that's Coach K's fault then we'll just have to disagree. His game plan was sound and we should have won that game.
And that isn't even more reason to condemn K than being outcoached? Losing control of your players like that, especially for K, is simply unforgivable. Your using such a lapse by players and coach alike as an excuse is even moreso.

* * *

Your comments on Price and Sanders are insulting and not at all related to what I was saying. Not on point? Here are two bums who I refuse to support. My post was insulting to whom? A bum is a bum nomatter what uniform they wear. Collins should have been flogged for taking the last shot with GH on the floor, and as for Casey? LOL you'll feel mighty lonely defending that superstar.

* * *

And what is the point of this tall tale? Blasting the NPOY for not "winning us a title" and implying it's because he was worn down as freshman is just nuts.
1. Tall tale?? 2. Never came close to implying JJ didn't win us the title b/c he was worn down. If that's what you came away with, not my fault you read what you chose to.


Please don't confuse distaste for inability to respond.

T

Chicago 1995
06-08-2007, 01:32 PM
Where did I say anybody was spoiled?

I thought your response to Trinity92 was pretty darn close. You stated that he'd only be happy with championships, and the inference you wanted people to draw was pretty clearly negative. Spoiled, in other words.



Critcize the team all you want, but be prepared to back up your criticism with evidence and persuation. Calling Paulus "physically ungifted" is just BS. The guy is gifted. Not in the same way as Hurley or JWill, but those guys were unique in our lifetimes.

Is noting that Greg Paulus is at best, a mediocre defender because of his lack of lateral quickness BS? Is observing that physical, athletic defenders can render him completely ineffective running an offense BS? Is his play not evidence? The struggles offensively the last two years? The debacles that was the LSU game in 2006. Our offense pretty much the whole dang year last year? The repeated blown leads? The repeated problems stopping dribble penetration? Issues arising out of switching on every possession to cover for Greg's inadequacies as a one-on-one defender?

If, in spite of two years of watching Greg as our PG, you aren't willing to recognize that he has physical limitations compared to his competition at the elite DI level, then I don't know what to do.


Part of the problem I have with all the K critics is that you are not there. You don't know what is said and done in practices and on the sidelines. It's all unsubstantiated.

No it isn't all unsubstantiated. There's how the team plays on the court that can be observed over and over and over again over the course of the season. Am I supposed to think that we continued to run the spread delay to the detriment of the team over and over and over again this year against K's will? That our bench was not developed in 2006 because the players themselves refuse to report in when asked?

With certain criticisms like individual play calls, yes, being there would help. People aren't, with one or two exceptions I can think of criticizing single plays. It's larger patterns over one or several seasons. Being there just isn't as important in analyzing those things.

Classof06
06-08-2007, 01:51 PM
It seems like in the wake of last season, those of us who have criticisms of the team or the players here are branded as spoiled fans who are only happy with championships. I don't think that's a fair statement.

If I'm critical of Coach K, it's not because a year didn't result in a championship, but because I have questions about whether or not he got everything out of the team he could have. It's a big difference. Around here, things have become polarized to some extent, and it seems like if you aren't wholly supportive of the team and its personnel, you're a spoiled or bad fan who has unrealistic expectations. There's a lot of grey area in fandom that we need to recognize, I think. Doing so will hopefully lead to better dialogue and discussion here.

Agreed. Gordog, I realize we as fans aren't in the practices and don't see what goes on behind the scenes. But that doesn't mean we can't ask questions and point out things we don't agree with. At the same time, I think it's implied that we all take each other's comments for what they are; we all know that none of us know exactly what is going on and that's why our opinions are relatively meaningless.

That being said, the games are what count and the fans see games. So if they don't agree with something, agree with something, whatever, it's forums such as these that make it worthwhile to express issues, concerns, etc with other Duke fans. Why else are we here!? Observations that aren't positive or being critical is not public bashing!!! There's a difference between voicing your doubts about Paulus and being a typical Kentucky fan. Geez, I didn't know being a Duke basketball fan meant becoming part of a dictatorship.

As far as Smith goes, everyone says he's a combo, but he is definitely capable of running the 1. Especially given our logjam at the 2 and 3, you have to think a nice chunk of Smith's minutes will be spent at point. Smith said flatout the reason he came to Duke was because he knew he had a chance to play right away; ESPN Insider chats have the experts on record saying they think Gani Lawal from GT and Nolan Smith will have the biggest impact out of any ACC freshmen not named Singler. No disrespect to Paulus, but I personally believe Smith is what Duke has been missing in its backcourt since Duhon; an athletic, in your face defender that can also get to the rack. If Coach K is the kind of coach I think he is, then whoever gives us the best chance to win will start. That's all I want and I don't think that makes me a spoiled fan.

Maybe saying Greg Paulus is physically ungifted is a bit extreme, I doubt anyone who plays ACC basketball is ungifted. But compared to many of the point guards we faced last year, it was painfully clear to see that Paulus was a step slower than most. I can't possibly see how one would say otherwise.

ojaidave
06-08-2007, 02:01 PM
It seems like in the wake of last season, those of us who have criticisms of the team or the players here are branded as spoiled fans who are only happy with championships. I don't think that's a fair statement.

I agree with you here to an extent, but this goes waaaaay beyond last season. As another poster noted, Duhon was crucified on here his soph and jr. years.



If I'm critical of Coach K, it's not because a year didn't result in a championship, but because I have questions about whether or not he got everything out of the team he could have. It's a big difference. Around here, things have become polarized to some extent, and it seems like if you aren't wholly supportive of the team and its personnel, you're a spoiled or bad fan who has unrealistic expectations. There's a lot of grey area in fandom that we need to recognize, I think. Doing so will hopefully lead to better dialogue and discussion here.


The problem I see is the different expectations the fans have vs what the coaching staff has. While championships are a goal at Duke, it seems to me that isn't the overriding concern for the coaching staff. If they players develop on and off the court, buy into the notion that they are playing for something greater than themselves, and leave everything they have on the floor every game, then I think the coaching staff can accept whatever year end results we achieve. Of course with the caliber of players we recruit, effort and results go hand in hand, so as long as Coach K gets players to buy in, we'll be exceptional (with regards to Div I basketball as a whole). I don't see us as a championship factory, and I'm fine with that. We don't look to take shortcuts and we reward those that have been here (see Trajan getting the ball on the final possession in 1999).



There's no way to prove or disprove this point, but I think it's clear I disagree. Give next years team a sophomore Carlos Boozer in the paint, I still don't think it's a championship team because of the shortcomings at PG.

At the same time, give this team junior Jason Williams, and it's still not a championship team because of the lack of depth and the youth upfront. We're a ways a way from worrying about championships. Let's just worry about being as good as we can be.

I have no idea what to make of this position. You're apparently saying Paulus is not the sole reason we aren't a championship caliber team but that we cannot be a championship caliber team with Paulus. I like what Paulus brings to the table, so if that means being saddled with a top 15 rating for the next two years, so be it.

Dave

cato
06-08-2007, 04:19 PM
The following are samples of why you don't get the privilege of full responses from me refuting you:



Please don't confuse distaste for inability to respond.

T

Privilege? My my, aren't we high on our own opinions.

Richard Berg
06-10-2007, 02:22 PM
So, if Paulus's foot heals reasonably well,
He (with brother and girlfriend in tow) was shopping in the same store as I for about 1/2hr yesterday. Appeared to be in good shape. IIRC it's only been a few weeks since the surgery, and he has the whole summer in front of him, so I'm optimistic.


I'm one who believes that Greg, for whatever possible reason/excuse makes you sleep better at night, has not shown he can effectively run a team at a high level for a whole season.
I agree with you. But that's an awfully high bar? How many Duke players can be said to effectively run a team at a high level for a whole season? JD, Hurley, Battier (in a different way), JWill, Duhon's sr year. All but one of those guys has a jersey hanging, and the other has a cushy NBA contract. If Paulus doesn't reach that level, it doesn't make him a failure as a Duke PG. Not at all.


And as I've said numerous times, this year is unquestionably the most pivotal year of his Duke career.
You can keep saying it, but it doesn't make it true. See: Duhon's junior year.


Is noting that Greg Paulus is at best, a mediocre defender because of his lack of lateral quickness BS?
Maybe, maybe not. None of us have seen him at full strength. Meanwhile, I ask you to recall last December-January. Even while recovering from injury, he was playing 35mpg on one of Duke's best defensive teams in a decade.


No disrespect to Paulus, but I personally believe Smith is what Duke has been missing in its backcourt since Duhon; an athletic, in your face defender that can also get to the rack.
You mean like Scheyer, Nelson, and Henderson? We're overloaded with that kind of player, not the other way around.

What Greg brings is exceptional passing. With the departure of Josh, we will need that more than ever.

SilkyJ
06-10-2007, 03:44 PM
You mean like Scheyer, Nelson, and Henderson? We're overloaded with that kind of player, not the other way around.



Um since when is Scheyer known for his athleticism, his ability to get to the rack, or for being an "in your face defender." you can not possibly group him in with nelson and henderson in those regards.

mapei
06-10-2007, 03:45 PM
That surprised me too!

Richard Berg
06-10-2007, 05:14 PM
How can you not group Scheyer with those two? He was absolutely a better defender than Henderson last year, consistently harassing and staying in front of his man while rarely missing a beat on team help. He showed more scoring/driving ability than either Nelson or G did as a freshman. He probably doesn't have the outright hops of those two, who are freaks in that one dimension, but he's very athletic...I'd say more athletic than Dockery, who was frequently touted as an "athletic in-your-face defender."

Faced with (yet another) two people who apparently never watched Scheyer objectively, I'm starting to realize why Jumbo brings up the race card so often...

Lord Ash
06-10-2007, 05:21 PM
Scheyer is VERY athletic; I was shocked this year when people dismissed him as not being athletic. Did you guys not watch him cut to the hoop, or play defense? While maybe not Gerald-athletic, I see nothing that sets him apart from Demarcus athletically other than skin color.

kramerbr
06-10-2007, 05:49 PM
Scheyer was constantly guarding other opponents top offensive players. I don't remember VCU's star player's name but he was guarding him and did pretty good. The defensive experience he gained in his freshman year will give him the confidence to excell both offensively and defensively in his sophomore season.

SilkyJ
06-10-2007, 06:40 PM
Faced with (yet another) two people who apparently never watched Scheyer objectively, I'm starting to realize why Jumbo brings up the race card so often...
Basically calling me a racist. What a ridiculous comment. You don't even know me. Very uncalled for.

It has nothing to with Scheyer being white. I think Marty is every bit as athletic as Henderson and Nelson...and guess what, he's white. Now allow me to breakdown my viewpoints objectively.


How can you not group Scheyer with those two? He was absolutely a better defender than Henderson last year, consistently harassing and staying in front of his man while rarely missing a beat on team help. He showed more scoring/driving ability than either Nelson or G did as a freshman. ...

I flat out disagree on basically all of this. Gerald's ability to get drive and get to the basket, or drive and pull up was excellent. Scheyer's ability to get to the rack I felt was in large part because he would get the ball after several passes and the D would rotate over and try to close out on him to prevent a 3 b/c he's a good shooter. He would take advantage of this overaggresiveness and get past his initial defender very easily.

I do think he was a better defender than Henderson, but Nelson was definitely the best defender on the team, especially with his ability to easily guard 3 positions...and if you recall he often guarded the 4 as a freshman.

Also, Nelson wasn't a freshman last year, and ur comment said nothing about scheyer being as good as nelson WAS in all of those categories. you grouped scheyer as a freshman in with nelson as a junior.



He probably doesn't have the outright hops of those two, who are freaks in that one dimension, but he's very athletic...I'd say more athletic than Dockery, who was frequently touted as an "athletic in-your-face defender."


Not sure how we got to dockery, but: I've played ball with Dockery and seen him throw the ball off the backboard catch it in mid-air and spin 180 for a reverse, in a pick up game. I've also seen him throw it off glass, catch it in the air take it between the legs and throw it down (not during a game). No, scheyer is not as athletic as him.

SilkyJ
06-10-2007, 06:45 PM
Scheyer was constantly guarding other opponents top offensive players.

No, Nelson usually was, if he could be spared from having to guard a bigger guy.


I don't remember VCU's star player's name but he was guarding him and did pretty good. The defensive experience he gained in his freshman year will give him the confidence to excell both offensively and defensively in his sophomore season.

Maynor was his name.

You mean like when Scheyer guarded him on the last play and Maynor hit the winning shot?

mepanchin
06-10-2007, 07:24 PM
I will get better defensive ratings this coming year because I will actually record the most relevant stats, but the estimated defensive ratings that can be calculated using existing stats are usually pretty accurate. Also, usually the following "rates" refer to percentages of a certain stat that the player got. For instance, a steal rate refers to the number of steals the player gets divided by the % of minutes he played on the season times the number of opponent possessions. You then estimate on what percent of opponent possessions while the player is on the floor that he steals the ball.

That being said, the defensive ratings from this past year are pretty in-sync with our general subjective experience. Among our guards, Nelson has the best with 89.8 (a function of being one of our better defensive rebounders, plus having the most steals and still logging 17 blocks). Our second best guard-defender was Henderson with a rating of 94.17. This is mostly due to his high defensive rebound rate and his 10 blocks in only 47.3% of total minutes. Scheyer is next with a 97.35 rating. He does not nearly have the defensive rebounding rate of Henderson or Nelson, but he had 38 steals on the season, giving him a steal rate of 2.11 (better than Henderson's 1.56, but worse than Nelsons 2.52 and Paulus' 2.14). Finally, Paulus had a D-rating of 98.42. As mentioned, he had a good steal rate, but had a very low defensive rebounding rate and only a few blocks. The thing is, given his position, he will likely never get defensive rebounds anyway. Historically, our point guards (following this formula) have higher defensive ratings than other wing players who may be in a better position to get more defensive rebounds.

At any rate, what this tells me and from watching the games, I believe that Scheyer is a pretty good defender. He's not slow, but he's not super quick either. I think he can be a very good defender with more experience and skill. I think Paulus will need to be healthy before we can completely evaluate him, but I don't think he is an awful defender. Nelson is an all-around stopper who rebounds well, can block shots and get plenty of steals, while Henderson is more of a small forward who can block some shots and get rebounds, but has some technical work to do defending.

Hopefully this coming year, these expectations will be confirmed with more detailed defensive statistics that I will keep personally...

Waynne
06-10-2007, 08:00 PM
I like Greg because he is a warrier, but I agree he has not yet shown signs that he is an elite PG. I realize he led the league in assists his freshman year but he was passing the ball to JJ and Sheldon ( and occasionally McRoberts). Coach K could have racked up a pile of assists playing with those guys.:)


I also recognize he played injured this past season which undoubtedly impaired his ability to handle, pass, and defend. He did look like a very good shooting guard the last third of the season.

The fundamental question at this point is the nature of the surgery he had on his left foot. It seems unlikely, but is it possible his fifth metatarsal was removed as Jeff Goodman stated? If so, that is very bad news because his career as a college player likely is over; he would not be able to cut or run at full speed.

Even the reconstructive surgery suggested by the physician on DRB is serious because it means Greg probably won't be able to work out on his feet all summer. He could weight lift and do aerobic workouts like swimming, rowing, stationary biking, etc. but not play ball. If he is not close to 100% by October then we will have big holes at the 1 and 5 positions.

Any word on what kind of surgery he had, and how his recovery is going?

Richard Berg
06-10-2007, 09:37 PM
Basically calling me a racist. What a ridiculous comment. You don't even know me. Very uncalled for.

What?

I'll spell out my point. First the obvious: race is the biggest issue in American basketball. Having to acknowledge and respond to this fact in every thread gets tiresome, so I don't always appreciate it when posters like Jumbo bring it up. Yet every now & then I'm reminded why they do so.

I didn't say anything about you specifically, and I certainly didn't call anyone a bigot.

I brought up Dockery because he was the most recent Duke guard to be lauded as a lock-down defender. Last year, Scheyer (frosh) was nearly Dock's equal (as a senior). And I'll stand by my comment about their raw athleticism. As I already pointed out, it encompasses more than leaping: in this very thread, sprinting and lateral quickness have gotten more discussion than leaping, deservedly so. Scheyer is just as quick as Dock while standing 5" taller. If he added a 180 dunk on top of his core strengths, it wouldn't surprise me that much.

Nelson is a better defender than both. G also has the potential to be...someday. Nobody disputes that. The point is, we don't need any more athletic, slashing, lock-down guards. We need the 3 guys (4 if you overlook Marty's defense) who already fit that label to mature. Just like we'll need Smith to mature once he arrives. Expecting him to fill a hole that (a) doesn't exist by any reasonable definition (b) requires everyone not named Durant time to learn, is ludicrous.

greybeard
06-10-2007, 09:40 PM
An article in the New Yorker, I think from 4/14/03, asks, "What do Wayne Gretzky, Yo-Yo Ma, and a brain surgeon have in common?" The author makes the case that they each possess a type of genuis that is of different quality, that is different in nature, than the intellectual variety.

Gretzky explained, "people talk about skating, puck-handling, ahd shooting, but the whole sport is angles and caroms, forgetting the straight direction the puck is going, calculating where it will be diverted, factoring in all the interruptions." Reportedly,when Gretzky was two, he watche hockey games on tv, enraptured, and slid his stoinged feet on the linoleum, playing out in his mind's eye the choices he would make, only to cry when the game was over.

It has to do with seeing the field of play, and understanding the probabilities, and being able to act on what one sees, while maintaining the ability to adapt as the probabilities might dictate.

So, what does this have to do with the discussion at hand?

Interesting question if you ask me.

gep
06-10-2007, 09:46 PM
It has to do with seeing the field of play, and understanding the probabilities, and being able to act on what one sees, while maintaining the ability to adapt as the probabilities might dictate.

If I recall correctly, Larry Bird was supposed to be able to do these things on the basketball ball court. Just like when he followed his shot when, after he shot it, he knew it was a miss, and knew exactly where it would bounce, got there, jumped and caught the ball, and in mid-air, shot the ball in the basket... with his left hand, I think...

greybeard
06-10-2007, 10:21 PM
If I recall correctly, Larry Bird was supposed to be able to do these things on the basketball ball court. Just like when he followed his shot when, after he shot it, he knew it was a miss, and knew exactly where it would bounce, got there, jumped and caught the ball, and in mid-air, shot the ball in the basket... with his left hand, I think...

Most really good ballplayers can, to some degree or the other. The ones who do it in the upper ranges, the genius range, or approaching it, can be extremely valuable on the court and, like Bird, but to a lesser degree (we are talking complete genuis there boys) surprise you in many ways.

My guess from having seen him twice, Greer on the LAX team, Crotty, Danowski. Schuyer, DeMarcus, Paulus, you tell me.

You want to here a hoot, for a 7 footer especially, I'm not sure that Zman doesn't see a whole lot more than the average bear too.

SilkyJ
06-10-2007, 11:39 PM
And I'll stand by my comment about their raw athleticism. As I already pointed out, it encompasses more than leaping: in this very thread, sprinting and lateral quickness have gotten more discussion than leaping, deservedly so. Scheyer is just as quick as Dock while standing 5" taller. If he added a 180 dunk on top of his core strengths, it wouldn't surprise me that much..

I disagree with so much so I'll just limit my response to this which should summarize my feelings: Wrong. Dock was listed at 6'2 so scheyer is only 3 inches taller.

The Gordog
06-11-2007, 10:05 AM
The following are samples of why you don't get the privilege of full responses from me refuting you:



Please don't confuse distaste for inability to respond.

T

Wow. Distaste indeed. I'll stand by my previous post responding to you and let the readers of the board decide for themselves what defines distasteful. And I think you are wrong in your belief that I will be lonely in defending Casey Sanders, or even Rickey Price. While I don't intend to compete with anyone about who gets more frustrated or disappointed with such players performances on court I will just say that we were all disapponted, and that should be obvious.

gw67
06-11-2007, 12:29 PM
Both of these youngsters have gotten hammered by several posters over the past several months. Based on what I've seen, they along with Nelson, Henderson and Singler, will be the top players on the team next year.

I was glad to see Scheyer and Nelson selected to try out for the Pan Am team this summer. I think that both can use this experience to develop as players.

Coach K will play those players that he thinks will be best for the team. If Paulus and Scheyer are the starting backcourt, they are the best that we have regardless of what some think. If either is replaced by another then so be it. In any case, I hope that the tenor of the player criticisms is not so harsh this coming year.

gw67

Classof06
06-11-2007, 01:56 PM
How can you not group Scheyer with those two? He was absolutely a better defender than Henderson last year, consistently harassing and staying in front of his man while rarely missing a beat on team help. He showed more scoring/driving ability than either Nelson or G did as a freshman. He probably doesn't have the outright hops of those two, who are freaks in that one dimension, but he's very athletic...I'd say more athletic than Dockery, who was frequently touted as an "athletic in-your-face defender."

Faced with (yet another) two people who apparently never watched Scheyer objectively, I'm starting to realize why Jumbo brings up the race card so often...

In my response to your earlier comments, I say this year is Greg Paulus' most pivotal year because with Smith now behind him and Elliott Williams in the backlog (hopefully), if Greg Paulus plays next year like he did last year, I'm confident he will not be the starting PG for the start of his senior year, probably not even by the end of his junior year.

As far as my statement about the in-your-face athletic defender that can attack the rim, I meant at the PG spot. Obviously Scheyer, Henderson and Nelson are capable, but none of the 3 can run PG; I think we learned that last year when there was no viable alternative to Paulus at the 1. That's not how it will be this year. Smith, whether he starts or not, provides athleticsm and penetration abilities at the 1 that we haven't had since Duhon left.

As far as your statement above, there are numerous issues I have. Number one, without referring to mepanchin's stats (which seem to support my stance), I'm not even necessarily willing to concede that Scheyer was a better defender than Henderson. But he DEFINITELY was not a better defender than Nelson. Nelson matched up against the opposition's best offensive player every game, as long as he wasn't a 4 or 5, though K never hesitates to throw Nelson on bigger players. I have no idea which team you were watching, but Nelson was easily the best on-the-ball defender we had on our team last year.

As far as scoring and driving ability, Scheyer showed the least out of the three. The ability to get to the basket off dribble penetration was noticeably missing from Scheyer's game, and as the year went on, you saw teams pressure him more on the close-outs, forcing him to put the ball on the floor because they knew he wasn't yet comfortable doing so. Again, I don't know which team you were watching.

Scheyer more athletic than Dockery? That is just flat-out wrong, brother. Off-base, plain and simple. That's all I can say about that.

Put it like this, I'll say Scheyer is adequately athletic, enough (combined with his strong BBall IQ) to be a very good player in the ACC. But to call him "VERY athletic" like Lord Ash is, again, wrong. Scheyer is less athletic than every other player I've mentioned in this post (besides Paulus), and by a decent amount. I think he's a very good player, he's critical to the success of this team, and that he'll improve vastly over this summer, but let's be realistic, guys.

SilkyJ
06-11-2007, 03:23 PM
^agreed. Maybe its cause the '06 class dominated (freshman year epworth, baby)

t '06

RepoMan
06-11-2007, 03:36 PM
Put it like this, I'll say Scheyer is adequately athletic, enough (combined with his strong BBall IQ) to be a very good player in the ACC. But to call him "VERY athletic" like Lord Ash is, again, wrong. Scheyer is less athletic than every other player I've mentioned in this post (besides Paulus), and by a decent amount.

This endless debate is tiresome. It is clear that athleticism for some means something different than it does for others. Hence, an irresolvable dispute about who is more or less "athletic." It depends on what you mean by the word.

Is Tiger Woods athletic? For those championing the Scheyer and Paulus are not very athletic position, I assume the answer would have to be, "I don't know" because I assume they haven't seen him doing anything sport-related other than striking a golf-ball.

For this debate to have meaning, a definition of athleticism would have to be agreed upon.

Indoor66
06-11-2007, 07:50 PM
That is really clever, repo. Kill a good discussion by asking for rationality. You don't belong on a Net sportsboard. You must be a Duke grad. LOL :D

Don't worry, it is unlikely that anyone will attempt to reach agreement on a definition of "athletic." I nominate your post for Post of the Week.

camion
06-11-2007, 08:33 PM
But first we need to define the criteria for "Post of the Week." :p

Richard Berg
06-11-2007, 08:34 PM
Obviously Scheyer, Henderson and Nelson are capable, but none of the 3 can run PG; I think we learned that last year when there was no viable alternative to Paulus at the 1.
I think we agree here, the only difference being your optimism for Smith. Is he truly able to run this team? We won't know until next year, but I doubt it. I hear he's very good at both positions. Scheyer was also touted as a very good combo guard. As we saw during Greg's injury & misc downtime, while Scheyer could competently bring the ball up the court (with Josh's help) and score / dish, he wasn't anywhere near ready to be an elite ACC floor leader. The same will be true of Smith during his freshman year unless he matures far more quickly than average.


I have no idea which team you were watching, but Nelson was easily the best on-the-ball defender we had on our team last year.
Never said otherwise.

Last word on Scheyer vs Dock: Obviously they have very different styles of defense; it's silly to compare them. Dock used lots of hand-checking & general harassment, while Scheyer uses his height and savviness. Both are very quick and rarely beaten off the dribble despite playing very close to their man. Neither blocked many shots, though Scheyer had quite a few more. On O, Dock was a better ballhandler. Scheyer was a better penetrator. Both could attack the rim, though neither were good finishers (yet). Both can dunk with ease. How you add those things up into total "athleticism" is up to you.

dukie8
06-12-2007, 06:21 AM
I think we agree here, the only difference being your optimism for Smith. Is he truly able to run this team? We won't know until next year, but I doubt it. I hear he's very good at both positions. Scheyer was also touted as a very good combo guard. As we saw during Greg's injury & misc downtime, while Scheyer could competently bring the ball up the court (with Josh's help) and score / dish, he wasn't anywhere near ready to be an elite ACC floor leader. The same will be true of Smith during his freshman year unless he matures far more quickly than average.


Never said otherwise.

Last word on Scheyer vs Dock: Obviously they have very different styles of defense; it's silly to compare them. Dock used lots of hand-checking & general harassment, while Scheyer uses his height and savviness. Both are very quick and rarely beaten off the dribble despite playing very close to their man. Neither blocked many shots, though Scheyer had quite a few more. On O, Dock was a better ballhandler. Scheyer was a better penetrator. Both could attack the rim, though neither were good finishers (yet). Both can dunk with ease. How you add those things up into total "athleticism" is up to you.

i don't know how you possibly could have watched many (most) of the games last year and concluded that scheyer is good at "attacking the rim" or dunking "with ease." he played great as a frosh but attacking the rim and dunking are 2 skills that he did not even remotely demonstrate with any regularity. moreover, how could you have watched the vcu game and have concluded that he rarely gets beat off the dribble.

i really like his game and am looking forward to watching his career develop at duke but let's not get carried away with what he can and cannot do.

jaimedun34
06-12-2007, 08:23 AM
I thought Scheyer's defense for the first half of the season was very good, as was his offense. It seemed that he hit a wall on both sides of the floor towards the end, specifically after the UNC game. To use the VCU game as an indicator of the level of play for any of our players (excluding Greg) isn't very fair IMO. Judging solely by that game, you would expect Josh McRoberts to be a great scorer.

Scheyer's defense off the ball and on rotations was very good for a freshman. As an on ball defender, he has some work to do but he didn't get beat off the dribble as much as I thought he would.

gw67
06-12-2007, 08:32 AM
Rather than put Paulus and Scheyer down, I’d prefer to view them as good basketball players who will be part of an excellent set of perimeter players next year. IMO, Paulus, Nelson, Scheyer, Henderson, Smith and Pocious will form the best group of perimeter players in the ACC next year. I expect that in most situations, at least three of them will be on the court at the same time. My thoughts on each player are as follows:

Paulus – Paulus has been the object of much criticism from die-hard Duke fans. His ball handling and defense last year were not up to his play as a freshman and I like to think that injuries played a major role. In any case, he needs to take better care of the ball and do a better job of getting the team into its’ offense during the upcoming season. He is the best outside shooter on a team that needs points from the perimeter and he is a good free throw shooter for late in the game. During the last six weeks of the season, he averaged over 17ppg. I expect that he and Nelson will lead the team in scoring next year. I also expect for him to continue to be the starting point guard with some help off the bench from Smith.

Nelson – He is a tough defensive player and a good rebounder for his size. He has improved his jump shot in the past couple of years but he is still a weak ball handler and foul shooter and we can only hope he improves in these areas during the upcoming season. He is trying out for the Pan Am team and I think he has an outside chance to make it. I expect him to average around 15ppg and to be counted on to rebound and to sometimes guard bigger players when the team goes small.

Scheyer – Scheyer had an excellent freshman year and was on the All ACC freshmen first team. He may be the best all around player on the team. He is a good ball handler and passer, one of the best outside shooters on the team, a decent defensive player, and an outstanding foul shooter. He was also chosen to try out for the Pan Am team and, while I think that he is a long shot to make the team, the experience should benefit him as a player. I expect him to improve in all areas and to start most games. I expect his minutes to come down slightly to accommodate increased play by Henderson and also play by Smith.

Henderson – From the preseason hype last year, I expected big things from him and he was a disappointment. He is being counted on to improve his play significantly this year. Last year, he was a poor shooter from the perimeter and foul line, a weak ball handler and passer and an average defensive player. He has lots of potential and I hope that he plays as he did last year in the two games against the Heels and the late season game against the Terps. I expect him to be the first player off the bench. Like Maggette, there is a significant “wow” factor in his game.

Smith – I’ve only seen him play a few minutes on TV. My hope is that he is a Ewing-type player who can provide energy off the bench along with outside shooting and defensive intensity. Like Ewing, it doesn’t appear that he is a natural point guard but he should be able to fill in as a lead guard. Unlike his dad, who played as a 16 year old freshman at Louisville, Smith is 19 and has played two years at Oak Hill. I expect him to be the most ready of the incoming freshmen and to play double digit minutes off the bench.

Pocious – Pocious has not had the opportunity to play a lot during his first two years. He has some ability on offense but often has appeared to be lost. I don’t expect him to see much more playing time than last year unless someone is hurt.

Overall, Paulus, Nelson, Scheyer and Henderson should each play 25+ minutes per game. They will need to provide much of the team offense, provide steady ball handling and get the ball inside to the frontcourt players. I expect the defensive play by the perimeter players to be improved.

gw67

greybeard
06-12-2007, 10:04 AM
Scheyer is Duke's most talented returning player (imo is implicit). He will benefit hugely if Paulus is anything resembling healthy. He was asked to do way, way too much as a freshman. He will be asked to do less and do it oh so much better as a sophomore.

Classof06
06-12-2007, 10:59 AM
Scheyer is Duke's most talented returning player (imo is implicit). He will benefit hugely if Paulus is anything resembling healthy. He was asked to do way, way too much as a freshman. He will be asked to do less and do it oh so much better as a sophomore.

He was definitely asked to do way too much last year, but I think that will benefit him going forward. He hit a wall late in the season, but most freshmen do. It just so happens he didn't have multiple juniors and seniors to help him pull through. All "athleticism" arguments aside, I think he will play fantastic next year and I really look forward to seeing how he progresses. He gives off the impression that he's a gym rat, so I have faith he'll be ready to go come autumn.

Like gw67, I'm also very impressed with the collection of players we have at the 1-3 spots. Paulus, Smith, Nelson, Scheyer, Henderson and Pocius as a group is quite impressive. I'd imagine we have to be the deepest ACC team at these positions with kids that can actually contribute. I believe the competition for minutes alone is going to vastly improve this team, never mind the 4 freshman that return as sophomores with a world of knowledge.